Factually! with Adam Conover - Hollywood's Given Up on Progressive Politics, Joel Kim Booster Hasn't

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

Hollywood’s been collapsing to the right. Cancelling projects that lean right, refusing to acknowledge the genocide in Palestine, and generally capitulating to Trump’s second term. Many people in the entertainment industry are doing their best to just keep their heads down, but not Joel Kim Booster. On top of being a successful actor, writer, and comedian, over the past few years Joel has made a name for himself in his outspoken and unsparing views of the modern political moment, from the big stage down to local politics. This week, Adam talks with Joel about what it’s like to work in an industry that’s abandoned progressive views once they were no longer convenient. --SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. Hey there, welcome to Faxley. I'm Adam Kahnover. Thank you for joining me on the show again. I'm really excited about this week's episode because I have an incredible comedian, good friend of mine, a wonderful guy named Joel Kim Booster on the show.

And let me tell you about why I wanted to have Joel on. You know, Hollywood's always been a political place to some extent. You know, Hollywood fancies itself as being at the forefront of progressive politics and, you know, progressive identity and making society better. right? But actually, in the wake of Trump's second election, Hollywood has gone markedly backwards on all of that. The actual content that's being made has completely changed. The political messaging within it has decreased. It's become almost impossible to sell any project to any of the major companies if it has a political message at all, unless that is a Trump-friendly

message. And there is also many drop-off in comedians, people like me, being political. and more broadly, people in Hollywood have seemed to be frightened about expressing their political opinions at all. You've seen people hush up because, oh, I don't want to get yelled at. I want to start a fight. Let me just do my work, right? But Joel is a huge exception and counter example to that trend because not only is he, first of all, fucking funny as hell. He is radical in his politics. He is outspoken about those politics, especially on specific issues like local politics.

politics, Palestinian rights, and queerness. And he's unsparingly blunt about them. And yet, he has continued to work at the highest levels of Hollywood, which I find really admirable. He has not shied away for a moment from expressing his views clearly and respectfully, but also strongly. And, you know, as someone who values expressing my own political opinion as an essential part of my identity as a comedian, I've always felt a.

real kinship for what he's doing, and I've wanted to have him on the show for a long time. So we had a really interesting conversation, not just about politics and Hollywood, but also about queerness, about white male identity, strangely enough. And it's really fascinating, and I know you're going to love it. Before we get into it, I want to remind you that if you want to support this show and every episode that we bring you week and week out, head to patreon.com. Slash Adam Conover, five bucks a month gets you every episode of this show ad-free. And now, please welcome the extremely funny and thoughtful Joel Kim Booster.

I'm so thrilled to have you here, Joel. Thanks for me having me. I feel like it's overdue because I feel like I don't know as many comics who care as much about politics and specifically connected to our comedy as much as you do. And I'm going to talk about this in the intro a little bit. But I think it's especially notable right now because so many people, in Hollywood are like pulling back from politics. Certainly the companies are. A lot of people I feel are like more afraid to talk about it or more beaten down about it.

So just like where does that come from? Because it really feels like it's part of your identity as a comic. It's so funny you say that because I don't think of myself as an especially politically oriented comedian. Like a lot of the stuff that I have jokes about, especially now, aren't explicitly political in any sort of way. I mean, the thing is though, is. that I am Asian and queer and like and pretty visibly both. And so I walk out on stage and and to a

certain audience member, everything I say is going to be politicized in some way or another or, you know, the context of in which I'm saying a lot of the stuff that I'm saying, even if it's about birds or, you know, Mexican taxi drivers, it's all going to seem like it is coming from a political place. And I keep them, I feel like I feel like I, I, I feel like I, keep them pretty separate. Like I don't know if I've ever written successfully like a funny like current events like politically like related joke that like hits on a really visceral level for a lot of people. I do like I am really hyper involved, especially in LA local politics now or try to be. And I think like it's just it's funny that you I've never, I've had that um used to describe me before.

and I just never feel it, I guess. Like, as a person, I feel very engaged. As a comic, I feel like I'm a clown. And it's good to keep that separation. And sometimes when I'm doing, like, I do political comedy a lot. Yeah. But then I feel more free when I'm just doing comedy as myself. And then it often connects to something I want to say politically.

Like my new hour that I just watched like a fine cut of is, you know, it's all about my purse. personal life and dating and sex and stuff. And then it comes to a political point that I found organically, but I did not set out to make one. Right. I mean, I've got like 10 minutes of like jokes about the right wing at the top because that's what the audience wants.

But I get into, at a couple of things I'm mad about, but I get into that. I am not as a comic in the position of I go out there and people are like, your existence is political because I am to many people, the default comedian. And so I totally get that distinction. But I guess I picked that up from you because I guess I just feel like

I've seen you go out of your way a little bit like you hosted the Writers Goal Awards a couple years ago and I don't remember what it was but I remember you having a line or two where I was like, ah, Joel wanted to say that and were you wearing a pro-Palestine pin? Yeah, I was wearing a ceasefire pin. And so like, you know,

hosting the Writers Guild Awards is already a somewhat political event, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a labor event. You're going to talk about the strikes. You're going to make fun of David Zazloff or whatever it is. But like to, I just remember it jumping out, oh, you had a little bit extra that you wanted to say on stage. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt that in that moment, like you said, it was a labor event. I'm very pro-labor. I always have been. And it was like a huge honor, I think, to, in that moment, especially post-fires as our industry is going through all of these changes and struggles right now. It felt like a really huge responsibility to do that and do that well and still be funny, but still speak to, I think, like, the union and what we were going through and experiencing and what we've been through. So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of me.

And that, I think, is, like, probably the place I've gotten the most, like, explicitly, like political while also trying to be entertaining. Although, I will say the mandate for that monologue was insane because they were like, we want you to address the fires, but in a, like, funny way, but not in a way that's, like, making fun of any, and it was just like, okay. No, I'm, like, on our awards committee, or I was just on it as I was on some discussions about that. And, like, yes, it was complicated, because it was, the awards had to do justice to, like, the

emotion of the situation where it's like, well, we've been through all this, the, the strikes and the fires. And so you have to do emotional justice to that, but also are people over it? Are they over talking about it? You rocked it, by the way. I told you that right afterwards. You fucking killed it. I felt like I have so much imposter syndrome all the time always about everything that I do.

And that is one of the few times I can remember like finishing a gig and being like, no, actually I fucking killed that. And it was it was helpful because there were people like you in the room who were really like a fusive afterwards. And it's like writers aren't like that. Like writers don't like bullshit. Like writers would not go out of their way to come up and say nice things to me. didn't think I actually did a good job. So it was like, that was a really gratifying night, I will say. I mean, I just, I care a lot about the craft of like hosting, you know.

Just that's sort of my identity as a comic a little bit. I would love to host a game show. I love award show gigs. I love watching, you know, when someone has a bad award show hosting appearance, which is like, it's one of the scary things. One of the few gigs you can take where you can come out worse on the other side. I mean, it's, I love breaking down what happens.

what was going through their head, you know, that kind of thing. It's very rarely an additive to someone's career. Like, you know, I think Nikki is probably the most recent example of someone actually doing it really fucking well and like paying off in a huge way. But I mean, I won't name them. But there's a long list of comedians, contemporary comedians in the last 10 years who have flopped hard doing some of those awards shows. And it's one of those things where like you have to be at Nikki's level and do it so well for you. Otherwise, it is like doing well. It's just like a thankless job.

You know, you either walk away like flopping hard and looking bad or you do, you know, a good to, you know, great range and nobody cares or nobody notices. Because it is one of those jobs where like you really only notice. It's like an AD or a stage manager. You only notice if they're doing a bad job. Because if they're doing a good job, then no one's paying any attention to that at all. It's operating as it should be. And so in a lot of ways, like, those are, that's how I see it.

It's so scary. I don't know that I would ever want to do like a real televised award show. Like one of the big, big ones. Yeah, like, give me the indie spirits, you know? I think, like, let's, I could take it. I admire Nikki because she has steered so into, no, I'm doing the biggest gigs. I'm doing the biggest version of this. and I'm going to do it with maximal professionalism,

and I'm going to, like, do the costume changes. And she's like, yeah, and I got a fucking new face for this. And so did you. And we all look great, you know. And because she's like steering into the big gig. And the couple times that there's been multiple recent high profile flops in most of the cases, and I won't call them out either. It's someone who looked intimidated by the gig, you know, and they're out there.

And I always feel for that. Because I'm like, that, I felt that way. so many times as a comic. Like, my first year is a comic. You get booked on a show that you don't think you should be booked on and then you're out there going, they hate me, they hate me.

And then you're defensive. And then the audience is like, why is this person who I am seeing for the first time so defensive? For no real, what is their issue? And then the vibe is bad, but it's like this emotional thing that happens that you sort of lose control of.

Right. And it does feel like a lot of them have, like a lot of people wanted to reinvent the wheel, I think, because I think there's an awareness, too, when you get a job like that, that award shows are dying, you know, and like, who knows how long, you know, the internet has sort of rendered them a little bit, you know, moot because that used to be the only place we had access to celebrities was award shows and late night appearances, and now we have too much access to every celebrity. And so why tune in and why bother? But yeah, I feel like there is like a lot of people who have tried to get experimental with it, and it's just not

not what people want to see. Like, it is not the time, the Golden Globes, you know? Yeah, I like the Writers' Guild Awards because it's just, it's for us. You know, it's like we're trying to make each other laugh. And I'm also an advocate for, I try to tell the people in the Writers Guild. It's like, you want a writer performer. You want someone, you don't just want a performer and you don't just want a writer. You want someone who, like, can write the material for themselves, can deliver and can

adjust the jokes, which you did a wonderful job of. Let's talk about your pro-Palestinian activism, though. Because, you know, I had friends who literally, like, you know, their reps fired them because, you know, a couple months after October 7th because they were hitting add to story on Instagram posts of like, you know, footage of like, you know, tanks and bulldozers and like, you know, people's lives being destroyed. And they were just going add to story, free Palestine, you know, pretty basic stuff. and, you know, they took like literal career hits because it was this sort of post-9-11 atmosphere. And it took a long time. I mean, I felt that myself too. And, you know, it was like really hard not to feel it.

And to be like, okay, I have to overcome this a little bit, et cetera. How am I going to talk about this? And I really admired that I felt like you just steered into it the entire time. Yeah. I mean, listen, like, I lost reps because of it. Wow. And I certainly lost job opportunities because of it. But it, and the other thing I will say is that I was really careful in the, especially in the like days, like, post October 7th.

Like I feel like there's a, there's so much like fog of war like bullshit. You really have to take it into account when you're posting anything on social media, especially a highly charged, you know, situation like that. And like I would spend like 45 minutes like checking these like videos to make sure that it was recent and that it wasn't like some like video from 2017 and like all of this stuff before I would post it. And I tried to keep it pretty much like donate here, call your reps here, without getting to deep into the emotion of it because I could sense like that was where I think a lot of people were like it wasn't that I was like unimpeachable. but it was just that like you can't really like get mad at me because I wasn't posting like opinions. I was just posting sort of like these are the things that are going on and this is how you can affect change if you want. But yeah, it just and I remember in like probably like the day of October 7th being like maybe I just won't say anything about this. And then it just like quickly becomes so clear when you see when I saw like no one was talking about it.

really, that it just felt really wrong. And, like, I had a lot of people, I think, levy the, like, bandwagon, Palestine support that, you know, a lot of people felt, which on A of all, like, who cares when you started caring? Like, I'm not going to gatekeep, you know, caring about Palestine. But, and second of all, like, I've been, you know,

like, the reason I started education, about Gaza and Palestine and the conflict over there was because of Mark Zuckerberg actually. Like the early days of Facebook, a BDS group was suggested to me based on my other groups that I was in on my college campus. And I like was like, I don't even know what this is. I, you know, it was like 2006 at the time. So like, you know, it was before we were, there was a certainly mainstream conversation happening everywhere. And I remember like this group was suggested to me. I joined it. And that's like where I started. to like, you know, form what now has become like a pretty firm stance on, on, you know,

the sovereignty of that nation and like, you know, the horrific things that have occurred over there in the name of an ethno state. So it's just like, yeah, it's always been something that has been on my radar and something that I feel like we are still living through a really deeply frustrating moment in terms of how people talk about it and what. I mean, it just, I think the whole thing that it really taught me this over the last three years is that we are operating from different sets of truth than different people. And also, I think that this was a really interesting thing to crop up because it was, it really showed you that people on the left, liberal-leaning people, especially were not accustomed to disagreeing with anyone on their side.

Like we were not, I will specifically say liberals, I don't think, were used to disagreeing about social issues. Yeah. And did not have the like words or like they were just so, I think, frazzled by, you know, someone who they have, they agree with on 99% of every other issue. Suddenly coming out with it. And I felt this too, like with certain people in my life who I was like really surprised. to find out were, you know, ardent Zionists and things like that. And like it gets really personal really quickly. But yeah, you know, as a 2016 Bernie Bro,

I am very used to getting in arguments with people on the same political spectrum. And of this political spectrum is me. I learned that really quick back then. But like, yeah, it was a really fascinating time to see people hot and how they operated. It was really difficult. I mean, you know, I felt a, in many ways, the fact that so much of the conversation was playing out over Instagram was the worst part. And it was like, I felt pretty quickly, I'm not going to engage with it there.

And so I basically did interviews on this show. And I was like, okay, that's going to be my role. I'm going to talk to experts. It's how I deal with anything. And, you know, that's where I'll have the conversation. And it was funny because I actually did, I made one post on Instagram where I was like, Hey, guys, I'm actually, I've done a podcast episode about this. I'm not going to, because there was so much, there was so much pressure to post. And there were people in my comments going, like, this ain't it, chief, you got to post on Instagram too. And I was like, you know, you have, this has gotten so heated, like the focus on literally this one app. I've said this on the show before.

On, like, if you think like screaming in Mark Zuckerberg's prison, like online prison is going to do anything. Yeah. Hit a ad to story and then go talk to your friends or go look at the other levers that you have in your life, you know, because it like, I really felt that heated toxicity of social media there. And then when you're talking about your friends, you know, I sort of felt like with, you know, when you have those friends in there, like, oh, I didn't realize there were such a committed Zionist or something like that. I'd be like, well, you know, I don't know everybody's family. I don't know where people grew up. I don't know the ideology that they were, what they were brought up with, what's important to them.

On some level, that's their own journey. You know what I mean? And if I meet a friend like that, you know, maybe we have a conversation, maybe we agree not to talk about it, whatever. We're gonna be people to each other. But I saw people ceasing to have that personal relationship with their friends, you know, in both directions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As a result, and that's how you end up with, like, I don't know, again, I had friend, friends who had reps for many years who like saw their Instagram posts and called them up and like screamed at them. I'm like, you know this person, you know? Yeah, it's one of those things too where I talk about this with J.K. Rowling all the time just from completely out of left field to bring her up. But like it is one of those things where and this is connected to I think one of the like most harmful pieces of rhetoric that has infected the left over the last decade or so is

the phrase, it's not my job to educate you about this. Because I completely understand where that feeling is coming from as a marginalized person who has been forced to explain, you know, that experience to non-marginized people for almost my entire life. But the problem is with that is that you look at the landscape of the internet now and specifically like Google just as an example, it's you really want this person who, if they are coming to you in good faith, asking you why something is wrong or why you're offended by something or why something is, you know, offensive, whatever. Do you want to leave it up to the internet to educate that person on this thing?

Because especially, I think, with cases like J.K. Rowling, where you saw, I think, there was like, it started the seed of her turfdom started, I think, from a genuine curiosity and concern that may or may not have been valid. But what was met with from like the, the very like comparatively to now, question she was bringing up back then, everyone on our side was like, fuck you, you were fucking turf. And then the only people that were on her side and the only people that were willing to talk to or engage with her were fucking turfs. And so you just push these people when you isolate them like that. And you suddenly, they only have the one side that's like being nice to them online. And it's, of course, that's just going to suck you in further. And so I try to

keep that in mind with a lot of my friends while we were, you know, it's easy to dehumanize somebody behind a DM, but it was like less, it's more difficult to do that when you're trying to talk to them, like face to face. It's nobody's responsibility. It's no individual's responsibility in any particular moment to educate a specific other person. It's never like, maybe you're tired. Maybe you already did some educating that day or whatever.

but it is our responsibility collectively to educate each other. Otherwise, who will ever be educated? You know, everything I know about marginalized identities and experiences is because of the wonderful folks in my life who've been like, hey, here's how, here's what my life is like. I'm like, oh, thank you, person who I know or article that I read or whatever, you know. And I've like moved on plenty of things. And there's also been plenty of times in my life where they, there's a certain type of activist or somebody,

not even activist, just there's a person screaming online about it in a way that is like, I'm like, well, that's not, they're being cruel to another person. And then I go, well, you know, they're having a bad day and they are a person who's marginalized. And, you know, like there's a reason why folks who've been like ground under the heel

of the rest of society for their entire lives will maybe occasionally flip out on someone. You know what I mean? And I can give them that grace. But not everybody is going to. And like somebody does maybe need to go be nice. Well, and the thing is, I think the distinction that's really important here is if you're being asked in good faith. And you can, and you know when that's, when that's happening and when someone's not really open to hearing like the education that they're being asked, they're asking of you.

And I, listen, I am not perfect at this. Anyone who's followed me on social media knows I will pop off in a really oppressive way and in a really non, like, how. helpful way at a lot of times. Because, you know, sometimes, like, I have a very much, like, generally speaking, do not engage policy, but sometimes you're a little fucked up and you're waiting in line for the bathroom at a party and you're on your phone and you're alone and you just open up those filtered DMs and suddenly you are in it. And it's just really difficult to practice what you preach in those situations, I find. But yeah. Folks, this episode is brought to you by hymns. You know, before they even advertised on this show,

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your values on stuff like Palestine or anything else that you care about? Like, is it connected to comedy at all? I mean, I know you said like what you're doing, we talk about on stages something different, right but like for me I don't know what I find funny is connected to my political beliefs and that it's all my reaction to the world and going like this is right this is wrong this is strange this is unusual what is true what is false

is there a connection there for you I mean there's a connection insofar as like my connection to comedy is the reason why I have a platform and my platform is the reason why I feel a small responsibility to say anything And so I think in that way it is, I don't find, like, my comedy brain is so, like, separate from a lot of the instincts that I have with regard to, like, social justice. And so, because, like, I think I'm, it's really hard for me to, like, because the things that I, like, search for when I'm writing a job.

is like some sort of weird, absurd, like, like sharp left turn out of reality and into a reality of my own creation. And then things like Palestine and like, you know, class divide is like so rooted in my reality as a person that it's hard for me to take it to a place of, of, it would be, it's like I would have to exercise a different muscle than the one that I've been exercising

for the last almost 16 years doing stand-up. Yeah. It's, uh, I will say it's, easier as a script writer to do, to bake that a little bit more into some of the, like, more comedic moments. Like, I think, like, one thing about Fire Island that was, like, really important to me was to make sure that it was clear that the main characters were not affluent gay men, because I think that's, like, an image of gay men that is seen on, in the media, like, constantly.

And to be fair, like, we do have pretty size. expendable incomes at a certain point. Well, at some level, you're a, you're a, wait, not a dilf. That's a dad of like, no, no, no, yeah. A dink, a dink. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, exactly. exactly.

So, but I mean, that was not my reality for so much of my, my, my entirety of my 20s and my early 30s. And like, so like that in itself like, because I, I, I realize that like the movie, I think gets a lot of praise for it's like, representation. and things like that. But I really didn't want to just leave it at like the typical ID politics that you see in movies such as mine because I think that like class is on the level

with so many of the other issues that I wanted to talk about in that movie. And so I guess like there that it definitely lives in that. I love that movie so much. Thank you. I really, I remember, I think there was like there's a huge rainstorm in LA. I remember watching it that weekend

and I was stuck inside the house and it was so beautiful. And also, you know, I felt like I got such a good, what I love the most in media is when I get a window into a piece of the world that I don't participate in. And so just like, I don't know, I think it's deeper than like representation, you know,

because when, a lot of times when there's a piece of media and people are are applauding its representation, it's like, uh, okay, this is going to, maybe this is too limited sounding, but like, let it was like, oh, we're seeing us on screen. I'm like, that's wonderful. But there's a way in which I felt like let in as a, you know, straight man has never been to Fire Island, right? I was like, oh, this is, I'm, I'm some, I'm invited. I get to participate. I get to understand. And also, I get to just like watch a nice movie. It's all going down easy.

Like, I don't know. I just had such a, it's a really beautiful movie. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that because let me tell you, no one is more willing to tell me they hate my movie than a drunk gay guy at a party. Really? That's horrible.

But like, it is like, it's a reality. But like the thing is, is I appreciate your perspective on that because I do think that there is part of what makes making content like that difficult in the landscape of our industry is that the assumption is that straight white male audiences have no curiosity about an experience that is not their own. And so there has to be an endpoint, there has to be a touch point, included otherwise like you're alienating, you know, a huge market share of your audience. And I do believe that there are people like you who are interested in like exploring things experiences that they will never have access to in their own

life um something that you why would i just want to watch something about my own experience no yeah it's it's funny because i think like there is this thing like at queer people especially i think grow up because of the lack of representation for us we have become so accustomed to finding our stories in other people's narratives and that is not a muscle that i think a lot of people like you yourself have had to exercise without, you know, preemptively, you know? So like, I think that's part of it is that when you see, like, I see some pushback or critique of the movie, like, from, you know, straight white guys or something like that. It is like, because they are mad that they, it is not inherently about them in some way. And so, yeah, so I appreciate you having that

I think my favorite thing in media is always to like understand someone else's experience, you know, like, I don't know, watching, to take a random example, like the first time I watched The Wire like 20 years ago, I'm like, okay, great. Here's like a bunch of people across a city who are being portrayed in a way where I'm like, oh, I understand the experience of this person. And that, that show is so like directly, so like realistically written. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like attempting a sort of realism that allows you to place yourself there. oh, okay, if I grew up on that corner, or if I was this type of cop, or if I was a chief of police and I was being yelled at by the mayor, I might make such and such a decision. And then builds out all, you know, the whole city.

I'm like, oh, I'm understanding stuff about the way the world works, right? That to me is the, is the whole appeal. And, well, let's talk about this a little bit. you know, in terms of it, in terms of the queer representation of it, because, you know, I think that movie was compared to Billy's movie a lot

for like the light touch that you had. It was a timing thing. It was, you know, I think like, it was both movies historic in their own ways. And I think like, of course, people, it's like much more interesting to pit us against each other. And the thing is, is like,

Billy was my first comedy boss. Billy on the street was the reason I quit my day job. I love Billy. Billy has been so supportive from me and my career in the past 10 years since I've worked for him. And so like there was no animosity between us. Like I think that like we spoke very explicitly about there being there should this is the problem is that the idea that there's only room for one of us at the table and that this should be oppositional when in fact like it's what a boon because like I think that so many people, because there's only like one or two pieces of gay media that's released every year, everyone in the community feels like they have to watch it because, okay, this is the only thing

that I'm going to get this year. And then when they don't see their own experience directly like reflected in it or it's like, it's a genre that they don't care about. Like I can't tell you the amount of people I saw who were like, I fucking hate rom-coms and I'm so mad that this movie was that. And I was like, well, then you shouldn't have been watching it to begin with. It's a wrong con. But like the thing is about a billionized movie is like, what a great thing because it's like if you hated my movie, well, guess what? You have another one you can go and watch immediately after that is very different from mine and maybe we'll appeal to you in a different way. And it certainly did. I think there are people. I mean, please, this is a call to arms.

Like stop coming up to both of us and telling us if you liked our movie better than the other one. because it only perpetuates this thing. Like, our movies are not connected in any way other than being in the same genre. And so, like, it is like a frustrating thing to have to work through. And I know you've talked to, you've had to talk about this a lot, and I wasn't trying to make you compare them, by the way. And I loved bros as well.

It's a wonderful movie. But, you know, a couple years on, in retrospect, you know, a lot of it was the marketing of the movies, Like Billy's movie was so piled with this weight that a lot of other representation movies or TV shows have of important, important. Everyone should go see it. It has and, you know, he played with that in a really funny way in the course of the movie. But I think the sort of whatever cultural feeling about it was like something about that. It irks people.

I will say, collapsed under the weight of it. Yeah. And I don't know for sure. never spoken to him about this. I wonder how much of the angle that they were taking with pushing and marketing that movie was coming from Universal because I feel really lucky that searchlight did not make us talk about the historic nature of our movie at all in the marketing or the press that we did in the lead up to that movie. And

in fact, I think like Billy's movie sort of alleviated a lot of the pressure to do that for us. And so I think like we it was like, I was like, I'll let somebody else like make those observations if they want. I don't need to bring it there. And I think like we got off a little easier because it was not being framed in any sort of historic way. That's exactly what I mean because that was sort of, you know, bros in retrospect. And you remember the year that they came out was sort of like the end of the peak of Hollywood doing, you know, representation material. I don't think I could get that movie made today.

Oh, really? No. And I spoke to one of my producers about this, and we both sort of agreed that, like, we slipped in, like, right before the sea change that we're feeling now in terms of what's getting made and what's not. And so the thing about the way Billy's movie was marketed and the way it felt like a studio thing was because they were like, this is how we know how to sell this type of movie as the civil rights moment of its time. and then, you know, audiences liked that kind of thing. And then it kind of had it for, it was about 10 years of like that type of movie. And then there was, of course, like a political backlash against it.

We have the Trump moment, et cetera. And then Hollywood was just like, well, enough of that. Like, we don't want to do that anymore. Oh, my God, the important movie. Bab, blah, blah, blah. And your movie to me was this beautiful example of like, just make a fucking movie. Choose some people in America.

Oh, gay guys on Fire Island, a rom-com. Great. Lovely little movie. That happens to be set somewhere. just like Tina Fagas to make a movie about what it's like to buy wine in Napa or whatever. Like, it's just choose something. Well, and I, I, it, I, I, I, I, there's a story to me there about the way Hollywood treats these stories. I think the other thing is, is that, like, it seemed like a sort of, like, shitty thing at

the time that, but, like, we also, the goalposts were in much different spots for our movies because mine was streaming. Of course. And his was not. And the theatrical market is like, pass, fail and it kills you. And so like I think like his movie probably set out to accomplish a lot more in terms of the scale of the story that he was telling

because it had to because of who was making it. And mine was allowed to be this sort of very small story, very specific story about like one kind of queer experience. And I think Billy's was trying to be, have a, it was a bigger tent that he was trying to make with his movie. And so I think history will be

kinder to that movie than I think it was at the time of release because I think A, it's a great movie and B, it's like, it's sort of like girls. Like I recently made my husband watch girls because he'd never seen it. And as we were watching it, it's one of the best shows in television.

And being able to watch it away from the discourse of it is like so free. And I think like that's what happened to to that movie in some regard is it just got sucked up by discourse. And if you're able to someday watch it without the discourse being like in your brain, then like it'll be such a better ease. You'll be able to approach it much more objectively. I mean, I waited a million years to watch heated rivalry because I did not want to watch it in the height of the discourse about it because I knew I wouldn't be able to treat it fairly or on its own terms if I did because I'd have like 15,000 opinions. you know, from Twitter floating in my head, too, while I was watching it.

Yeah. When girls came out, I was, I literally, like, lived on the same block as fictional Hannah Horvath in Greenpoint. And the degree to which the people who were supposedly represented by the show said that they hated the show. And the discourse about it being so toxic. I watched it. It was a pretty good show. Then I watched it again 10 years later. And I was like, this was one of the best shows of the past 20 years.

I also find it really shocking when I meet someone who thinks that, she wasn't in on like how terrible these people were. It's in the pilot. The whole pilot is that. Yeah. And I think that like it's it's it's really like silly to to not give her credit for knowing what she was doing. Yeah. With the portrayal of a very what we now recognize to be a extremely incisive and accurate depiction of a certain kind of millennial white girl.

Yeah. And like, yeah, it's like, and the, the, the criticisms about the diversity of that show. I'm like, do you want Lena Dunham telling a black story? Like, I don't need it. Like, she was in her lane telling a story that she knew how to tell and she did it fucking brilliantly. Yeah. And, like, I, the, I don't blame Lena for the lack of, like, you should be writing into the reps at HBO and demanding more from them, not from Lena. Like, I'm not like, no, who's, I don't need her to tell that kind of story.

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No, no, no, no. I'm Kyle Mooney. Sorry about that. Exactly. No, all good, all good. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, and we host the show What's Our Podcasts here on HeadGum. This podcast is brought to you by Square Spang.

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Hell, sounds easy. Anybody could do it. How do you feel about, you know, you talked about you couldn't get that movie made now. Yeah. We've been through this, like, insane roller coaster on gay rights, queer acceptance in America. You know, it felt like, to me, one of the biggest, fastest changes I've experienced in America. I remember being in high school and being told by. friends like I just don't like gay people like why would you even bring this up I I've told the

story on the show before like my one out lesbian friend in high school started like a a a local chat I think it was the gay straight alliance it was one of those groups and she was like vilified for it you know and then 15 years later the Obergefeld decision and then now we've snapped back in the other direction yeah it's it's really interesting um like my engagement was featured in people, and that issue sold out in my husband's hometown. And like, the way it cured homophobia in his town is really kind of crazy. And like, people were reaching out and coming out of the woodwork and being like, oh, my God, like, I was really good friends with John Michael in high school. And he was like, I think the last time we spoke, this person

called me a faggot. Like, you know, like, the revisionist history is so wild. But yeah, it's interesting the industry like in 2016 i felt like the industry responded to trump's win by being like we're going to make all this woke diverse like stick it to the man content and we're going to make a lot of it and now this time around my experience of taking out many things to pitch and try and sell and trying to get made is everyone's a little bit more frightened this time of like him and and and with warranted like if you've seen what he the shit he's pulled with you know these media companies and Colbert and and, and, um,

Kimmel and like all of this stuff like, yeah, I would be fucking frightened too to go out on a limb and roll the dice on something a little bit more, um, you know, politically less in vogue than it used to be. Um, but it is like, it's so demoralizing at the same time.

Yeah. I mean, specifically, uh, they started accepting the premise of a lot of Trump's bigotry, you know, like to go from, talk about trans rights specifically, the North Carolina bathroom bill

that had like this big corporate reaction, like I believe the NCAA pulled out or whatever, all this stuff, to, you know, the couple years after like 2025, people were going like, oh, trans stuff, isn't that pretty controversial? You know, like, it was. They pulled a hat trick with that because it is like my,

people like my mother who, you know, we're lower middle class people. She depends on government assistance. And the way that they have convinced her that trans people are in ever-present danger to her everyday life. And she does not know a trans person, maybe a trans person, highly unlikely. She barely leaves the house in the Chicago suburbs. And it's like it is such a look over there. It's exactly what they did with gay marriage in the 90s.

Like it is, I'm like, Mom, you were getting fleeced right now. And you are so, the number of people in this country who have a thought out. well-defined, firm stance on trans kids playing in sports when that will never ever fucking be an issue for you or your goddamn stupid fucking kids. Like, I'm sorry. Like, this is the thing that you have decided to have like a well-thought-out, like stance on. It's like, and meanwhile, you bring up, like, practically any other issue, economic, especially, and they have not given it any clear thought and they could not tell you a coherent stance that they have on it. And it's like that's the issue and it's so I mean it's it's it's remarkable and you got to give it up

you don't it's wild I love that you looked in the camera for that when you were like this is your issue as though they're all I mean some of them probably are you know it's so it's so easy when asked what you think about trans kids playing in sports to be like I don't fucking know and I don't fucking care and it's a case by case thing I guess I don't know when has this when have You know how many trans girls specifically? I believe in 2025. The number was like two. Yeah.

In the entire country. And yet, you know, half the country right now feels like they have to like get in an argument about it every fucking day on the internet. Yeah. And also what I was doing this joke on stage for a while. Like, you know what the best thing is about sports? They don't matter. No. That's the thing.

It's the whole point. It's not fair. Well, life's not fair. I don't give a shit. Like, I'm sorry. It's not fair that LeBron James is genetic. superior to every other person he's ever played basketball against. Like,

it just like, tell your shitty kid to find a different sport to play. Your civil rights issue is that like your sis' daughter didn't win a gold medal. It's always, always, always, never the person who came in second. It's always a person who came in seventh, who's complaining about it.

Who never would have gotten on that fucking podium to begin with. It's like the shittiest most mediocre people are always fighting, you know, their inherent mediocrity. Like every fucking like affirmative action, like, you know, opponent in the Supreme Court, you're like, oh, you are a mediocre person. And that's why you have to do this. But did this backlash surprise you at all?

Because I certainly, I think, was a little guilty of, like, drink at the Kool-Aid and being like, hey, we did it, you know? Like, wow, massive victory for the civil rights movement, you know? Yeah. And then didn't realize the vulnerability to backlash that was like brewing for like a decade. Yeah. I think like because I think I had a very specific age in the last couple of years where I've finally seen a couple of cycles happen. And I think like I it's always been sort of a two step forward, one step back sort of process for us.

And you've seen this sort of come in cycles. And I think especially after the first Trump win. you sort of felt the tide shifting a little bit. And just looking at, like, if I were 25 when all this was happening, I think I would have been really, really shocked and really, really upset. And, well, I mean, I am upset, but, like, really floored by it and taken back by it. But I think because I've, you know, now almost 40, and it's just like, it's a little easier to have the distance from it and be just, like,

generally more jaded about this kind of stuff than I was when I was first trying to sell a show or get a show me. Because that's the thing is I've been through development hell on many projects now over the last decade. And I know the kind of shit that they try to water down, you know, and the adjustments that they ask you to make. And like, it's this really insidious thing where, you know, I think a lot of people are like, you know, these diverse shows are bad quality, wise. And then all these shows that star straight white guys are the ones that pop off and are good quality. And the reason that, you know, it's the quality that makes them universal. And it's like, you know, we back away from your identity politics. But the insidious thing about this is that I

know so many creators who are women or people of color or queer who have adjusted their stories to feature straight white guys because it's the only thing that will get it made and get it sold. And so then you have all these shows. It's like the self-fulfilling prophecy of like, well, you know, those are the only quality shows. And it's because all of your quality writers, you've painted into a corner. And I've done this now. I've stopped, I've given up, like, in a real visceral way trying to get my girls made. Like that was the promise of the premise of my entire career coming in was like, you know, there's, there was girls. and Insecure and Phoebe Willa Bridges Fleabag and Michaela Cole and like all these shows that were writer-creator-driven shows. And I just wanted to do that. I wanted to make my hangout comedy about nothing and that was just about my experience. And I don't think that that show, there's room for it right now. Certainly now that I'm like basically pushing 40, I don't think there's a lot of space for it. And so, you know, everything I do now, if it's in the TV space that I ideate on is is a four quadrant.

like star, like very little, like engagement otherwise. Because I know that like if I want to keep paying my fucking mortgage, that's the only way I can sell a script right now. But the shows that like, I mean, take like an insecure type show, right? It's like about a specific community, you know, it's like about Issa Rae's community, right? But it was a massive hit because it was like, that's just universal. It's, you know, the specific. And quality made.

And quality made. And it was made in that window when you could do that. But like the specific is the universal. Like this is the more specific you get, the broader it can ultimately go. It's like amazing that that lesson would be forgotten. Yeah. It is the industry's memory is very short. Yeah.

It feels like. And I think that like it's a lesson that it's like 50 first dates. Like I think they're just going to keep relearning that. And I think like, you know, we wait out this period for a few years and things will start to get better. And the other problem that we're facing, I think, right now that makes this moment different than 2016 is in 2016, like, Shell TV existed, you know, like everybody had his fucking streaming platform. And there were so many jobs and so much more room and bandwidth that these places had to take a chance

on something that be, you know, featured a, uh, centered a marginalized story. And now with all the consolidations and the mergers and the flop streaming platforms, like, it's just, there's just less space at the table for all of us. Yeah. And I've felt like if you now go in and pitch something and you say in any way that this will be good for the world or good for people, they're like, no, thank you. That's a down. That's bad.

Yeah. Like it's got, no, we, we actually need to be harming people with this. Yeah. Or we're not going to, we're not going to want to make it. The other thing that really bones me out as you're saying this were like, oh, the shows with the straight white guys get to get green lead and they're massive. None of those, what's weird is

the amount of representation that straight white guys have and yet none of the stuff that they make is actually about the experience of being a straight white guy in any way. It's not interrogating. Like that's what my new hour is about is trying to, is like, wait, why am I like this? You know, it was the challenge I wanted to give myself

and I'm happy I think I did a pretty okay job of it. But like it was partially a response to I was literally looking for media that would help me understand myself and would think, as me and my ex were breaking up, I read Miranda July's book. And that was, Miranda July is like a white woman artist about the same age.

And I read it as like, oh, I'm understanding you better. Is there a book like this for me? Like, and I could not find one. And I couldn't find a show. And I was like, what about a guy my age who's not writing about war and not writing about science or space adventure. but like, what is it to be,

why am I this way? What, you know, and what are the particular pressures that white guys have put on them other people that have? It's like, the opportunity is there and it's wasted because,

whereas, you know, if I have half of, go to a, you know, nice bookshop, half of the books that are by, you know, Asian or black authors,

that are novels who are like, well, what was it like to grow up? You know, like, what, oh, what did my mother tell me?

What beliefs did I grow up with that I need to discover? like all this sort of reflective thoughtful stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I think that like the white male identity is only something that is like existed for the like, I don't know.

Like we weren't talking about white men in the way that we talk about white men now. And we certainly don't have not pathologized white men in the way that we have in the last like two decades or so. You know, like I talk about this on stage right now where it's like so funny that like stand-up comedians for the last 20 plus years have been trying to create white stereotypes as a like a joke form. And like, sure, it's like in some ways recognizable.

But like the inherent reality of those jokes is that white people don't, it does not affect white people writ large. Because like white people have no rhythm can't dance. It's like, ha ha, yes, we recognize that. We on some level believe that maybe. But then we have a numerals. examples of that not being true because there's so much there's so many of you you know and like no one's figured

out what to do about that yet and I just find it to be like it is it's funny like that even trying to create like culture around pathologizing white people and their behaviors is like relatively new and so I think that that's

it's interesting like you you will probably be amongst the first wave of people who have I have actually felt their experience as a straight white guy is specific enough to even be worth exploring at all. Because they think, like, for so long, your experience was seen as, like, the universal template for experience in general. And, like, it was the deviations from that that made stories specific and special. And I think, like, only now are we seeing that, like,

your experience is actually a distinct one. And, like, we're getting to it with, like, the male loneliness epidemic a little bit. Like, we're talking about it. I think DTF actually is a really good recent example of the show that tackles that, DTF St. Louis, yeah. No, HBO. HBO. Yeah. So I think, like, that's a really good example of a recent one that has actually addressed it too.

But, yeah, I think, like, you're right that it has not been something that I think anyone has been super curious about figuring out. Yeah, I mean, half of my act, like, is about just, you know, why are we this way? And then we don't think about why we are, right? And it's about the idea that, you know, I watched women or other people interrogate, you know, what is it to be a woman and like, what are the stereotypes and men don't think about them at all. And then I do like 10 minutes of comedy about like two of them, you know, that like men always chase, right? And like are always the wanter and never the wanted, right? Just like that, I try to poke it a little bit.

Have you ever thought about this? and I think there's a big cultural resistance to it because A, just the blindness of assuming you're the default. And then B, like, you know, white men are like the perpetrators of, you know, the repression and the harm of everybody else, right? Creating the hierarchy. And yet are also the victims, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everybody of all these systems take toxic masculinity. Everybody is a perpetrator and a victim. men are greater perpetrators and lesser victims. Women are greater victims and lesser perpetrators, right? That has made it hard for us to want to have the discussion about like, but you need to talk about everybody's. It's a triage issue. You're like, where do we put you in terms of like, who do we address first?

Who do we like, whose problems do we solve first? Who do we fix first? And it's like, it feels like, like I think like some people are like, well, because you are, the perpetrator to victim levels is that what it is that like we should have trust you guys first because I know there's a lot of people in line right now but it's like yeah you seem to be yours seems to be spilling over like you know everybody else is making it everybody else's problem too and so yeah it's it's it's an interesting like who do we save from the fire first of it's it's it's a complex web right because you sometimes will see people go oh now I got to worry about the

male loneliness epidemic. Like, ah, and to that I say, like, you don't, you don't have to. Like, and it is real, you know, it is, it's men die of we're social animals. A lot of older men have no friends. They die earlier than they would have otherwise because they literally know no one. Yeah. And so that stuff's real. And it's up to men or white men or whatever dominant group we're talking about to deal with

our own issues. And also, we need the. help of women of queer people of non-white people to like just crack the door open as like a little bit of a not a guide but like an example you know and what and the thing I finally get to in my hour is like my gratitude towards the queer people in my life for being examples of what happens when you look inward and you go who am I really yeah yeah and now I'm going to be that person And I'm like, that's a wonderful thing. And it made me finally start to go, let me at least do that for myself a little bit.

So, I mean, all this stuff, it all goes around in a crazy circle. But we do need to help each other. Yeah. No. And I think like the instinct for so long. And I think it's starting to change. He's like exactly what you sort of like did, which was like, oh, the male loneliness epidemic.

And it's like you want to roll your eyes and you want to be like, but it's like the male loneliness this epidemic is also mass-producing school shooters right now. So it seems like something to pay attention to, you know. Just to take it on, to combine the questions I have about, you know, queer civil rights and your politics, do you've, like, I think of you as being a bit more politically radical and like sharp elbowed than a lot of people in Hollywood. I also think of like when I look back at the politicization of, you know, the gay rights movement in Hollywood like 10 years ago, it's very soft and fuzzy.

It was very like, oh, love is love, right? We're going to get married and it'll all be done, right? Do you feel any connection in that for you that, like, is there a need to be more radical or more aggressive, you know, politically? I think, yeah, because we're all like, you know, experience. the world through the prism of our many identities. And I think like there, you know, I think the part of why the gay rights movement got watered down a little bit was because it was being sort of the architects of it, that movement

became suddenly rich, white, gay guys. Yeah. You know, and it's like marriage became sort of like the issue, the number one issue. and, you know, because I grew up poor, because I grew up non-white, like all of these things affected the ways in which I inter-engaged with the movement. And I think, like, it's really hard for me to disengage, like, one part to service the other. And so, like, I'm, I'm just hyper aware of, like, the class issues that exist within the queer community writ large and the things that get ignored and pushed aside in favor of just, like,

you know, love is love. sort of ideology and as a poor person I'm aware of like how the working class has treated queer people and people non-white people you know so it's like all of a piece together and I think like being it's it's inconvenient to the narratives of a lot of the different movements I think is to like suddenly be the killjoy or the like the annoying person who's like actually like you know this is not servicing like a huge portion of our community because not everybody has the means to get married or be economically affected by getting married. And like, you know, it's all sort of like of a piece together.

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, what are the benefits of getting married apart from the emotion and the social? Right. It's splitting up assets and it's saving money on your taxes. Those are like things that help people who have assets and a large income. And we looked at it through that lens. It's like, oh, yeah, that is what the affluent, you know, part of the, community would want.

To wrap up, like, you and I are both really active in local politics. I often think of that as something for me that, like, takes the pressure off of being too political in my comedy because it's like actual action. I'm curious, just what role does it play in your life and how did you get into it? I got into it in 2019. I think, like, a lot of people in this country, like, I was brought up. My political education was largely centered around national electoral politics. Like my, you know, first big, like, political stirrings were Obama-08.

And, like, you know, I wasn't really that engaged before that. I mean, I was in college, so it's a fair time to get engaged. But, like, and then you start to get disillusioned with that really quickly. You know, I started in 2016, I think, understanding that suddenly, like, just because you're a Democrat does not make you good. was a real tough lesson to learn. And we learned it very quickly. You grew up during the George W. Bush era.

It was pretty easy. Watch the Daily Show, listen to either glass, and vote, and you're done. And it, and unfortunately, like, and so I just became like, what's the point, especially living in California under the electoral system that we have, I was like, oh, I'm just throwing my vote into a pit every year. It doesn't really matter. Like, I am so frustrated with the theater of national politics. politics and you know it's it's like it was really fucking annoying and so what happened was I got

invited to a fundraising event for nithia ramen at haydab and ports house who I was friends with and it was the first moment that I understood a like how vital my vote was in LA yep and how like some of these races are won within a hundreds of votes you know and it's like it really does come down to every single vote really matters and then canvassing for Nithia was the first time that I had an education and how powerful our city council is and how, you know, half the people didn't know who their city council member was. And it was so, like, you know, I canvass for Hillary. And the face you just made.

The thing is, is like, you knock on a door for Hillary. The person answering the door knows how they feel about fucking Hillary Clinton. You're not changing someone's mind about Hillary Clinton. You're not going to door for someone, especially Nithia and her when she first, strand. No one knows for other city council. They don't know who Nithia is. Everybody's a Democrat, so they think automatically they can just vote for the incumbent. And it was such an, you had actually engaging, like really gratifying conversations with strangers about politics for the first time because they weren't coming into it with all of these preconceived, you know, ideas and like firm stances

that were shaped by whatever media narrative was happening around these politicians at the time. Because there was no coverage. There really wasn't as much conversation as there is even more so now. And so it felt just like, okay, like I'm actually affecting the outcome of what's going to happen to my city. And, you know, it's fits and starts and it's frustrating because like, you know, we won't really feel the effects of any of these until we get two more seats on the, on the council, you know, it's like stuff like that is really frustrating to. Stuff has happened. Yeah, no, totally. You know, Nithia, for her part, like, passed, you know, like, tenant protections and stuff like that.

Other progressive council people have, like, passed important stuff. I'm really, I'm much more, like, forgiving, I think. Like, understanding of the reality that they're in. Like, I, like many people have not been thrilled with every single vote that every single progressive council member has made over the last few years. But, like, I'm also extremely aware that, like, concessions will be made on a council that is, currently what, four to, you know, 11? You know, it's just like, it's, it's the reality of how politics and it's really frustrating to see people who were really bought in suddenly just sort of like

pick up their ball and go home because like not everything changed immediately in exactly the same way. And people, you know, um, had to sort of like figure out a way to work with in a system that without, instead of like getting in and completely blowing it up, like we all wanted it to happen. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you know what I've lost patience for is there's a certain type of person activist. On the left, I think they're a minority, but they prefer somebody who is not in power and will never be in power because that person can be perfect. Yep. Right.

And that person can construct a fantasy politician that matches their priorities exactly. But the actual difficult work of that person actually taking power and then actually getting in the muck of reality, you know, they have no patience for that. And, you know, my view is, it's not like, oh, you have to compromise or whatever. I'm like, once you are in office and you are taking thousands of votes

on lots of different things, like, shit's gonna go down, you know? And the person you got elected might not be the, they might not be, to share every single one of your priorities. They might be share 95% of them or 90% of them, right? If you go look at any of these people who've actually,

fucking Bernie Sanders record. You'll find 100 things you don't like. Zoran will do 100 things people don't like over four years. But they have power and they are getting shit done more so probably in Zoran's case than Bernie's because he's been on the minority the whole time. But like if that's not your goal, if your goal for your political principles is I just want someone to say the things, but I don't care about them happening. I don't care about them getting into power.

Then I don't think you're a real leftist. I don't think those are your actual values. if you just want to say them and you don't want to enact them. No. Yeah. I think, like, part of this is,

I think one of the worst things that has happened in politics over the last several years is like the stannification of the celebrification of politicians in general. It's like, all become cult of personality. And it's like, no, like actually, like you don't need to defend. I'm not going to say that. You don't need to defend your guy or girl or person to the end.

to the nth degree because they cannot be wrong on anything or they cannot because like it's they're not bioncate they're not a celebrity they're your employee and like you know it's just like so frustrating to see like the like very like virulent sort of like obsession with being like no no no I am I am a Bernie supporter so therefore everything Bernie does is right it's not how that works you know like I can be a Bernie supporter and still like disagree with him and still understand how, you know, why he's important to be where he is. And it's, you know, I think Zoran has really threaded the needle really quite effectively because

not only is he checking a lot of the like online lefty like boxes, but they're, you know, his transition team, I think is a really great example of this. They all sort of like were unimpeachable in from like an ID perspective, but they were all also unimpeachably competent and qualified for the positions that he was putting them in. So he was sort of like he's he's just a masterclass I think in doing this right. And unfortunately our system is radically different than theirs. And so we won't even if we did have it. Yeah, even if we did have our own Zoran, it wouldn't he wouldn't be able, they wouldn't be as

effective immediately as Zoran has been just because our systems are so different. And I think a lot of people don't understand that. Yeah. But the the stannification is, yeah, it's a real problem. because when we expect perfection from literally anybody, you know, what are we doing? We know that we're not perfect. We know that our friends aren't perfect. We know that our family members aren't perfect.

Oh, my uncle's a drunk, but I still love them or whatever, you know. And I think maybe we like displace our dissatisfaction with our own imperfections onto these people and expect them to be or hope them to be. and like it's just not, I don't know, every vase has cracks in it, you know? Like, we live in a... Yeah, it's like one of these things where like, it's this, it's the system, it's the system. Like, it's like, I guess my expectations

for what couldn't be accomplished within the system that we currently have are so, like, finely tuned that like very rarely am I like genuinely like shocked or disappointed by something a politician says or does anymore because it's like I guess I'm grading everybody on the curve of like how they are operating within this very broken system. And then the other 50% of my time is spent thinking and devising ways in which we can tear down the system that like isn't a pipe bomb, you know? Like, and that's very, it's, the pipe bomb seems easier.

I always say if I were not a comedian, I'd be an eco-terrorist for sure. Like for certain I would be fighting the planeteers. I mean, we have to, we have to be able to exist in a world. We have to be able to mentally accept the fact that we exist in a world in which everybody is going to make mistakes and do bad things like all the time. On the left and on the right, every sphere of human, like every bad and good thing that exists in society is because of people's capacity for goodness or badness and that exists in equal measure across all people.

So on the left, hey, we could all have great values. But guess what? 20% of people are going to be fucking assholes. Because there's fucking assholes everywhere. And no matter who you elect, 20% of the time, that person's going to be a fucking asshole because they're hungry or whatever. And the question is,

how do you make progress knowing that everybody and every movement and every institution will disappoint? Yeah. Will do something wrong. It's funny because I recently, like I went against all of the things I just said because for me, it's like when I see a person make a politician make a decision that I don't agree with based in like the realities of the system, I'm very forgiving.

When I see a politician make a decision that I don't agree with that I see as based in narcissism or being a giant fucking baby, then like, then I like get really, I take it very personally and go to a very personal place. especially if I'm like in a bad mood or, um, experiencing a mental health crisis. Like I, I think I was recently like really hard on every city council member who endorsed Bass. And like, because it just feels like not, again, an unforced error. Like it just, um, and so I had the opposite reaction. I was like, you're doing what they got to do. Yeah. Don't worry about it.

Like it makes sense. Makes sense if you're one of those council members. Yeah. Hey. Just you're, you're, you're looking out for yourself. and, you know, it's not your responsibility to do anything else, and it'll be okay. It'll, what will happen is going to happen. And I'm not saying you're wrong.

No, no, no. And, like, yeah, we have to agree on everything. And, like, I think I was feeling pretty reactive when I maybe called them all slime. I don't know. But, like, it is, like, one of those things where, like, I will be donating to each of their campaigns again, no matter what I said on Instagram stories. So, but it is just like, this is, of course, this is, this is happening and it will continue to happen and will happen again. And we all need to figure out better ways to cope than the ways I do. Maybe there was something about you that made you react to that particular thing, like a betrayal and it felt like.

Again, because like on, I, I am slightly less willing to leave space for that specific political move in this game of chess being one based. in like, like something they were, they had to or, I don't know, you know, I, it's just, I think I was feeling a little petty that day. Yeah. Well. And we're all allowed that on occasion. Yeah. I think one of the hardest things to do is, you know, when I have those sessions with my

therapist or I'm like, I fucked up and I did this wrong and I like hurt this person or I didn't, I missed an opportunity, right? I made a mistake. And my therapist goes, okay, is, can you make mistakes? Like is that something that you that is allowed for you to do? Like is, are you, people make mistakes, right? Is this a disaster that you made one? And, you know, when I can finally internalize, I'm like, no, okay.

We all make mistakes. I'll go to bed. I'll wake up tomorrow. And then it's hard enough to do that for yourself. It's often, you can do it for your friends and family. You know, you can say, ah, my friend fucked up. Well, I still love it. Yeah.

It's for some reason hard for us to do that with public figures. Totally. Yeah, I think Yes, I agree And I think that like I think growing up evangelical It's made me very punitively minded And so, yeah, I know

So I think like In part like I know in my heart That I'm going to support these people Again in their future elections Probably unless there's like a very appealing Challenger but like I just in that moment wanted them to feel the hurt

Yeah And like, that's not a rational, like, impulse that I have. I truly do believe it comes from being and coming from a deeply religious, evangelical background that were punishment was like the driving force between, behind every decision you made was the, you know, the fear or the reality of like punishment. So. But I mean, also, something I'm working on. Also, you know what? You're pissed off. I'm going to assume that a couple of those, did you at tag them?

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And a couple of them, know you, right? Because you're very, you're very active in local politics. So a couple of of a problem, I'm just mad at me. Like I did that. And exactly the reason I did it. Yeah. Because, yeah. I mean, and again, like, yeah, see me on a fucking poster for one of their fucking fundraiser shows in two years. Like, it's a weenie move. But like, it is what it is. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, we're all active in the ways that we are and it's not always our proudest way to be, you know, all those people would also take a phone call from you if you were like,

hey, what's up? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that is. And sometimes I feel like in union politics, when someone posts and they're mad at me, I'm like, you have my number. Yeah. Like, give me a call and we can talk about it.

And like, let's see each other as people. And I think that's sometimes something we have a hard time going back to the Gaza stuff, right? The social media, it like are, it blinds us to each other as people when we really are socially connected. Well, this has been a really wonderful conversation. I don't think that's a particularly good landing point, but we've been talking for long enough. And yeah, man, I'm so, I'm very happy to know you.

I'm very happy about the work that you do in the city. Thank you very much. Yeah. It's feeling is true. Well, thank you once again to Joel for coming on the show. I hope you love that conversation as much as I did. I really, I really did have a, I know I say that every time, but I actually really had a blast this time.

If you want to support the show and all the conversations we bring you week and week out, once again, the URL, patreon.com, slash Adam count over five bucks. a month gets you every single episode of this show. Ad free for 15 bucks a month. I'll read your damn name and the damn credits. This week I want to thank Serious Dinosaur, Misk Bits, Christina Mendez, Kevin Sosa, Raghav, Kowsich, Eric Ziger, Robert Irish, John McPeek, and Harmonic.

Oh, and also Noah Dowd, one of my childhood best friends from elementary school. Thank you so much, Noah, for supporting the show. If you want to be like one of my childhood best friends and support me on that level, Hey, I'll invite you to my birthday party. That URL, patreon.com slash Adam Conover. We'd love to have you. Of course, I want to thank my producers,

Sam Rodman and Tony Wilson. Everybody here at HeadGum for making the show possible. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time on Factually. That was a HeadGum podcast. Hello, I'm Johnny Knoxville. And I'm Jeff Tremaine.

Welcome to Jackass the podcast. A new show coming to F***ing. Coming to F***. That's what it is. Hello, I'm a lot. Johnny Knoxville. And I'm Jeff Tremaine. Welcome to Jackass the podcast, a new show coming to headgum soon. Woo-hoo. I've learned a Jackass movie has to be really 90 minutes. Every minute over is a minute to roll. Apparently, there's only so much butthole you can take. We're going to take you

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I'm like, damn it, something bad's going to happen to me. Wee man. Jeff grabbed me from the back of the head and threw a punch. The whole bar just stopped and wanted to kill me. And some of the crew that's been with us from the beginning. I had to share a room with this guy. I left a nice surprise in the toilet form. Every time.

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