Factually! with Adam Conover - How 30,000 People Formed and Impossible Union, with Ethan Bakuli and Rodney Tate

Episode Date: April 8, 2026

It’s easy to feel powerless with everything going on, but there are normal people out there every day banding together to change the world for the better. Even so, their stories are not amplified as much as they should be. Over the past few years, over 30,000 Michigan home health care workers were able to successfully form a union despite not having a shared workplace, or even having coworkers. It was a feat of monumental willpower that will have a long-lasting, positive impact on all of those involved, both now and in the future. This week we invite you to take a break from the doom and gloom of the daily news cycle as Adam talks with Ethan Bakuli, a reporter who covered this story for Capital and Main, and Rodney Tate, a home health worker and a vocal leader of the campaign. --SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. Hey there, welcome to Faxley. I'm Adam Conover. Thanks for joining me on the show again. And I'm glad you're here because it's a dark world out there, right? Every day we are now seeing fascist attacks on innocent people, basic human values, and the institutions we rely on to keep our society, you know, stable. But even in the middle of all of that, people are still trying to make things better for their communities.

And sometimes, dare I say often, it works. But, you know, those stories of average people coming together to actually make the world around them a better place, those stories don't often get told. Or if they do get told, they don't get amplified. Or, you know, stories of people who are making the world a better place in a fake way, like Elon Musk way are amplified when the stories of the real people who are taking radical collective action are ignored. So, you know, today I'm excited to correct that a little bit and bring you a really incredible. fantastic story about a group of home health aides in Michigan who managed to organize a union to improve their lives despite the ridiculous odds against them. And you know, this story is not nationally relevant to everyone, right? You might not live in Michigan. You might not even care

about home health aids. It might not affect your life specifically. But this story is such a profound example of how organizing can work, how average people can use it to make their lives and the world around us better. And it is a lesson to all of us that we can really do this shit. We can change things. So I want you to listen to and learn from this story. It is absolutely incredible.

Before we get into it, I want to remind you that you want to support the show. Head to patreon.com slash Adam Khan. Over five bucks a month. Gets you every single one of our amazing interviews. Add free. 15 bucks a month. You get a bunch of other great perks

I'll tell you about at the end of the show. And if you want to come see me on the road, well, April 10th through 12th, I'll be on La Jolla, California at the La Jolla comedy store. I think that's the best comedy store. Out of all of them, La Jolla, that's the best one. Can't wait to be there in beautiful sunny La Jolla.

And then April 18th, I am taping my new special at the Den Theater in Chicago, Illinois. I am so excited to do so. I hope you come out. It's going to be a really special night. And then May 8th and 9th, I'll be in Kansas City, Missouri. Head to Adamconover.net for all those tickets and tour dates. And now let's welcome this week's guests to tell us the incredible. incredible story of how home health aides unionized despite incredible odds in Michigan.

I am so amped to have Ethan Bacouli, a reporter who covered the story for Capitol in Maine, and Rodney Tate, a home health worker and a vocal leader of the campaign. These folks are so inspiring. Please welcome Ethan and Rodney. Ethan and Rodney, thank you guys so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. Well, so first, can you tell me in Michigan, what do home care workers do? What is the job like?

Who does it? Yeah, so it's made of about 32,000 folks across the state. You know, that could be folks who are working directly with relatives or family members or folks taking on specific clients. You know, writing probably got a best in his own words, but a lot of the work is anything from preparing meals and medication dosages to help people to them from the bathroom, other kinds of basic need that they need taken care of, driving them to them to and from appointments to the hospital.

And so, yeah, there's a state program that works directly with those home care workers that are spread out across Michigan. And Rodney, tell me about your experience doing this work. Well, I've been doing this work for 25 years now, probably plus not sure. It was my best friend, my uncle, my mother, and I have my brother in my lap. And for 25 years, it takes a lot out of you, you know what I'm saying? Because when you have to clean somebody from top to bottom that can't help themselves, You know, it takes a lot of value.

Yeah. You got to have a heart for this. If you don't have a heart for taking care of somebody, then this is not your profession. Yeah. And let me understand it. You're caring for family members? Yes, I didn't care for my best friend.

He passed away after having to make a massive stroke. Then my uncle, he was a big non-bett, took care of him for a while. Then my mom died right after him. Then they said my brother in my lap. So I've been a long-time caregiver slash a man that wear many hacks. I mean, that's really beautiful work. I'm sure it's extremely difficult. But you're also being paid by the state to do the work.

Is that right? Exactly. Not enough. Not enough. I get paid $500 a month for taking care of my brother. Wow. He can't do nothing. And I got to have him in a tub.

I got to help him get in the car. Got to help him get off the floor sometime, you know, out the chair because he's constantly declining, you know. Yeah. We don't get no younger. We get older. And you're, but you're an employee of the state when you're doing this work, even though you're caring for a family member because the state needs somebody to do it, right? Now I'm an employee of the state that first. Oh.

And 2013, when Governor Snyder took them rights away from us being essential workers, now we are. Wow. And I think that's a great thing. Wait, so tell me that story of what happened in 2013. In 2013, Governor Snyder, he took the rights away for us to unionize. He called us non-cential workers. Then he said, well, they don't deserve to get paid like they was in a nursing home. something like that. They deserve to get paid this. See, now that things then change, your

loved one can stay home with you and you can take care of your loved one and get paid for it. But you've got to go through training and all of them things and make sure that you know how to do the necessary things to take care of this person. Yeah. I've learned from learned behavior. So now it's better than it was 2013. For this for 12, 13 years to get it back and it's here. Yeah, so what made this a particularly difficult attempt to form a union compared to the sort of unionization efforts that most people are familiar with? Well, for one, in order to start something like that, you got to start somewhere, right? So to have a union for home care workers, such as myself, it's a great thing because you have somebody to talk, but you got somebody to have a voice. You know, you got somebody got your back.

to not have these things it's like anybody can do anything that they want to do to you just walk over you. Yeah. So a lot have changed since 2013 to 26, here we go.

But I imagine that it was difficult to form a union of these types of workers. Like Ethan, tell me a little bit about like how many folks are doing this work and, you know, do they even know each other? they have a communal workplace, you know, because those are some of the basic things that

we normally have in unionization effort. This seems very different. Yeah. Let me say this. Please. I heard the question twice. It was difficult to start a union and find a union and even have somebody to have your back. When SEIU came in and they organized this whole thing and showed us the way, like, hey, it's power in people. It is power in people And they showed us that

It's time for you guys To stand up for your rights And go get what's deserved to you It's like them taking Medicaid, Medicare. I asked Ron Johnson on the elevator He was trying to get on the elevator In Washington,

why are you taking healthcare from people? He said, because we're giving it to the people that deserve it. Well, who is the people that deserve it? Wow. And the people that worked all their lives to help keep America wheels rolling.

Yeah. He said that to you. That's unbelievable. Ethan, just tell me about what brought you to this story and what about it did you find so compelling. Yeah. I mean, I think what I saw, I came into it around 2024 when the campaign started, the Michigan Home Care Workers United Campaign. You know, Ronnie has that up there atop of him. You know, seeing the way that this is a traditionally, you think of domestic workers in the South. If you think of people doing caregiving work as a whole, it's an underappreciated industry. It's a predominantly people of color, predominantly female low-income wage position. And so to see this kind of mobilization that was happening, like Ronnie said, because of the CIU,

was really powerful to witness his first time hand, you know, folks who are scattered across the entire state of Michigan. I mean, the folks working out of, you know, cities like Detroit, Lansing, Flint, Green Rapids, but then also in the more rural parts as you spread out up going towards the Upper Peninsula. So I think the feat for the union, for the workers themselves to actually be able to go door knocking in all these communities rural, urban divide, and actually get folks to say, hey, like, you know, we deserve dignity in our work, we deserve fair compensation for it, we deserve training. You know, even if people aren't coming in with necessarily like a college education that they still are doing work that is recognized as being important because we have an age.

population in this country that's only rising and, you know, lacking that kind of, like Roddy mentioned, whether it's about Medicaid and the impact that's going to happen to hospitals across the country, including in Michigan, you know, people really need to provide that medical support to their loved ones or to people who otherwise can't leave their homes. Yeah, I'm just sort of trying to imagine what this unionization effort must have been like, because, you know, Michigan's a huge state. I have family in the Upper Peninsula. I've visited many times throughout my life. It's a very sort of, you know,

woodsy kind of rural area, completely different from Detroit, far away. It's on the other side of the Great Lakes, kind of cross, I think, the longest bridge in America to get from one or the other, right? And, you know, obviously the communities

are very different, too, different folks, you know, living across the state. And I imagine, say, I'm living in, you know, a town outside, I'm living in Ishpaming, you know, outside of Marquette.

And, you know, maybe I've become a home health aide and I'm caring for a family, member. I've been trained by the state, but maybe I've never met anybody who else who is doing this work, right? And how would I communicate with them? It's not like we're all going to the union hall or to the cafeteria together. So you're saying that these home health aids were able to organize by door knocking communities one by one? Tell me about that. Well, it was more than door knocking. It was door knocking. It was social media. It was getting up close and personal. It was at the

Capitol. It was everywhere. You know what I'm saying? Letting people. know that this means something, this means something, whether you up in the rabbit or whether you down here in the mitten. It means something. So with that being said, with 35,000 home care workers at feet of this taking care of this person, they're struggling in the nursing homes to take care of a person because in the CNAs, you have 20 patients to one person. That's unheard of.

It's hard taking care of my brother, one person. It is very hard taking care, making sure he eat, making sure he's clean, making sure the clothes is clean, making sure to his doctor's appointments, you know what I'm saying, helping for fun time, you know, taking places where he can have some fun and have some sense of living. Wouldn't you want to live like that, Adam? Yes, I would. Yeah.

Somebody taking care of you, a family member, or whoever it may be. Like I said, it comes from the heart with me. And this fight that I fought for for two and a half years, it was well deserved. It was well deserved. Two and a half years. That's how long it took to unionize. Yes, that's how long it took for the whole process. And mind you, Adam, I know nothing about being a politic.

I'm a polytric. I hear it and I say, well, I'm going to trick that out of my brain to go the other way. But I knew nothing of politicians. I cared, nothing of politics. I didn't study it in school. None of that stuff. But shout out. out to SEIU again, they put that together and it taught me a whole lot because I'm done by

far. And it talked me a whole lot that I can go knock on these doors and make a change only if I stand up for what was right. And that's what we did. We stood up for what was right. This was other than 1940, the biggest union organized that happened since 1940s. Wow. That was huge to me. And my face was all in the newspaper and stuff and I'm saying, hey, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. When you win, you'd be like, the feeling is awesome. You know, I play basketball, football and baseball. And every time I won a game, I was the big mouth of the, you know what I'm saying, like, yeah, you know what I'm saying, getting all up and perfectly in their face, but it was all fun and the feeling is good. So, yeah, thanks for having me on the show, man. Oh, no, of course.

I'm so thrilled to talk to you. I mean, it's one of the joys of my life and that I'm in this work that I get to talk to folks like yourself who are doing the real work. I mean, how did you win? Like, you're going door to door knocking. Are you just asking, hey, is there a home health care worker in this home? No, no, no, no.

Let me give you the script. Yeah, give me the script. So, SCIU was allowed to get a printout or the information of all the home care workers in the city, I mean, in the state of Michigan. So that information was prevalent to them And when that happened, we organized and got together and we went out and started giving us information out. We was door knocking.

We was phone calling, phone banking. We was throwing events. You know what I'm saying? Everything to get that information out there. And it worked. It worked. I'm not going to say we reached all 35,000 because some people have passed away or moved on, you know, whatever. But we reached enough people to get that chain.

Okay. So you got everybody except for the dead ones and the ones who didn't live in Michigan anymore. So you got most of it sounds like. Exactly. Because it's 16,000 home care workers here in Detroit alone. Wow. So you count the rest of the 13,000 or whatever. That's other little cities and states, you know, in the state, you know what I'm saying?

Well, now, there's a question that I hope you don't find it offensive anyway, but I want to poke at this a little bit because I think some folks might hear the description of this job and hear, okay, the state's paying you to take care of often a family member. Well, that's not really a job. That's more like a welfare program of some kind. That's like a stipend to help folks who are down on their luck, et cetera. I know you don't see it that way. Tell me about, you know, what makes this like a true, you know, occupation?

Does that make a lot of sense? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I didn't get offended of that because a lot of people feel that way. And, you know, your opinion is your opinion. But I bet you you can walk a mile in my shoes. I bet. And take care of somebody. And I bet you.

And I bet you, I guarantee you once you get that age and you break down or say you have a car accident or anything and you can't do nothing for yourself. You're going to want somebody to scratch your back, your butt and wipe your feet. Simple as that. Simple as that. So that's dry and cut. I can't explain or elaborate anymore on that because, That's just what it is. And if you call that, if you think that's not a job, a profession,

then let me see you walk a mile of my shoes because one day, one day, you're going to want somebody to scratch your back, scratch your butt, and wipe your feet. And this is work that the state needs to be done, right? Because if it isn't, society just starts to crumble a little bit, right? Like we do have to have a baseline amount of care for folks who are elderly or ill. So along with, this is a similar program to sort of Medicare or that sort of thing where it's like, we got to help people. But in this case, they're literally paying folks like you to provide that medical care. Am I getting this right, Ethan?

Yeah, no, 100%. Yeah, so this is a Medicaid funded program. So it's getting money from that. So on top of everything we discussed, you know, with the concerns around the funding long term, just seeing how that will influence or impact just the structure of work like this. But it's necessary work like we've already talked. about as we're seeing people already priced out of being able to have, you know, relatives go into nursing homes or in the case of folks with disabilities, you know, just like being that effectively 24-7 care.

You know, I think that's one thing I would add on to what Ronnie already said. Like, this is work that requires that. I mean, I've spoken to folks who are taking care of family members or clients with cerebral palsy, folks who just require that kind of assistance at all times. So it makes a lot of sense why this is a program that was created when it was. Like Ronnie talked about, you know, Governor Rick Snyder had when he was in office, pushed to, you know, and implement right to work and all these anti-union legislations that really cut back against home care workers and other public employees being recognized

with public employees. So the campaign was really this effort to not only reinstate them as public employees, but also to give them, you know, access to a registry to train. to negotiating with the state to ensure that they could increase their wages. Because, you know, like Ronnie said, you'll be paying $500 a month. I've talked to folks who've been paid like less or around $300 a month for taking care of people. So it's just like, you know, you're required to take on multiple jobs in some cases, trying to balance that out, trying to still make sure you can be there for your relative

who or that client who really needs that or on the clock clear. Yeah, it's not always a relative, it's often another client. Right, right. Sometimes people might end up in a position where they're taking care of people. One person in a story I did, she just saw a guy who was in need of trying to get from, he was in a wheelchair trying to get into his house. And, you know, it was cold. It was a rental time. He didn't have anybody to support or support. He was staying with his family, but there were challenges around who was able to take care of him. And over time, she built a relationship with him, trying to help him out. And ultimately, he became a client of hers. And so there's instances like that. I think where people are just responding to needs in their community, where people, whether through disabilities or whether they're through older age or in need of somebody, but maybe they don't have anybody immediately within their support system that can help them out. And so that's where home care workers can really shine. Got it. And I also see, let me add to that. I see where you're trying to go with that. Like, do we think we deserve being called essential workers?

Yes. Yes, I do. Do you think we deserve to be compensated as a CNA or a medical assistant? Yes. Yeah. Do we need to be retrained and taught? Some of us. You know, some of us need that. Yeah.

So I hear the question. I see what's going. I've been hearing it for the last two years since I've been fighting this. You know what I'm saying? Oh, this don't matter. That don't matter. but I'm like, okay, that's for people that have a heart, but for people that don't have a heart in this stuff.

Because your heart got to have, it got to be in a game when you're doing something like this. So if it's about pay, I wouldn't care if the pay was up there or down there. I'm going to still take care of this person that I love so much. So at the end of the day, that's what it all comes down to that person that you've taken care of, that that person.

When my uncle passed away after being a Vietnam vet and I asked him, was he afraid to die, He said, are you? I said, I've been dead twice. He's like, me, me too. And I said, do you want to be resuscitated? He said, no, I didn't already been through enough in his life. He was 72 years old when he left.

Wow. And how I came in this world and I remember him taking care of me, that's how he went out of this world with me taking care of him. So that should be a story that everybody should hear. Because when you're saying you're negotiating, The negotiating the money and people don't deserve the money that they're getting for taking care of their level and anybody, that's inhumane. Yeah. You know, it's very inhumane.

So, you know, to everybody have their opinion, I'm cool with it. I'm going to continue to do what I do. Well, and I only ask that for folks who are hearing about this for the first time and, you know, are curious about it. I certainly would consider it to be a work. You know, folks, it dawned on me all at once. There I was on a chilly winter day, a cup of. T in hand playing some retro video games on my retro C-R-T-TV. Cozier than I have ever been in my life.

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Promocode factually at checkout. So in this unionization effort, you had to go all the way. from the state saying you are not employees at all to being called employees and then unionizing and then you're now bargaining for a contract. Is that right? Yes. So how do you organize folks who the state has said are not even employees to begin with? Like that's a that that is much harder than most other unionization efforts. Yeah. No, I mean it required like a lot of on the ground work, a lot of phone banking like was mentioned. I mean, I think really this message that was really illustrated about in states outside of Michigan where they've actually been successful in

this project, they've really seen a rise in their wages. So I think the messaging around what has been done in places like California, places in the Pacific Northwest, places also around the Midwest, I think, in Illinois as well, was kind of a vindicated of folks that like, you don't have to be stuck in the meager wages that you've sort of been accustomed to. You don't have to sort of deal with the conditions of not having respite care, you know, not having a way to seek out a break. Yeah. We saw, I think, Rodney kind of briefly touched on it, but there was a three-day camp out over at the state capital in Lansing where folks really made a show of, not just a show, but more so a demonstration of what they're trying to achieve here. You know, you're talking to

lawmakers. So last, well, in 2024, late 2024, there was two bills in the Senate here in the Michigan state legislator that were moving on to reinstate them as public employees, as well as to create this authority that would negotiate between the state and home care workers through SEIU. So those bills were passed through the House and the Senate, or passed through the Senate in the house and then ultimately went over to Governor Richard Whitmer who signed it into law last spring. And so that was a movement or that was a campaign effort where they were really talking to these lawmakers trying to encourage them that this is one of the first steps that needs to be taken before the next part of the campaign, which was door knocking to get people to sign for an

election to happen. So like Friday said, two years of a lot of processes of door knocking back and forth, going to the state law to lawmakers, really trying to encourage them to see this as a big win for home care workers and just the direction that, you know, working class folk in Michigan really need. And, yeah, I think they seized on the opportunity. And what was SEIU's interest in unionizing these particular folks, right? Because I can imagine there's plenty of workers of the type that SEIU represents around the country who are maybe a little easier to, you know, that don't have such a high hill to climb, you know, it seems like this was a big challenge. Why do you think the union took it on? I mean, this was a president, I think

that was said going back to the 80s. You know, I mentioned California. I think it was the first place, California and New York were some of the first places where we really saw that effort happen. I think what we've really seen over the last 40 years since then is just this is increasing need to have a workforce to meet our aging population. And it makes a lot of sense to come in and want to be able to support them because that just grows the, you know, I would say home care workers are an integral part of our health care system. Maybe not one that's really truly recognized at the same level as we mentioned CNAs and just other healthcare professionals. but definitely there's a rule that helps a lot of families, a lot of communities stay afloat. So here in Michigan, we have a sizable amount.

Definitely, I think the challenge of just trying to organize people across the state is something that was going to prove daunting. But I think they already had a roadmap. We're trying to do that specific strategy of putting in these bills to ensure that there is some protection in place for home care workers to recognize employees is significant and does prove to build out success for them down the road. I mean, I guess the only challenge really comes about when you have somebody who's a Republican in the case of Rick Snyder who comes in and says, like, we want to do away with everything that even remotely supports a union. But I think with the way that Richard Whitmer came in with a Democratic trifecta for the first time in, I want to say 40 years back in 2022, so that meant that she had both.

majority of Democrats in the Senate in the House, which gave her a lot of momentum to be able to actually do this work. I think the field was ripe for them to really be able to move forward and do something now before, you know, this is her last year in office. So seeing the shift when we might not potentially have both a legislator or a governor who's necessarily willing to see this kind of action happen here in Michigan. But they didn't do it out of the kindness of their hearts, right? they did it because the organizers at the union and the members pushed them to do it, right? To write this law to change their status back to being employees. Yeah, I think it really just, there was a bigger effort of trying to just see the vast

majority of Michiganers as workers who were, you know, and like how, and this is tens of thousands of people you're talking about, then leaving them to toil into, you know, some poor conditions with their work and not be able to stay in it long. I mean, you're also thinking about the next generation of people who will show up to do this kind of work. I mean, I talked to somebody who was saying, like, you know, her nieces and nephews probably wouldn't even want to consider doing this kind of work. But if this campaign and negotiation with the state proves to benefit them in the long

term, then that definitely is assigned to a younger generation of folks who might otherwise be, you know, not willing to get into home care work or any kind of caregiving work. Yeah. And if you did your studies, this is like SEU's fourth attempt since third or fourth attempt since Snyder cut this out. So it's a revisit issue that was successful this time. So it's been a fight. Like he mentioned in California, you know, they're doing the same thing. And shout out to them.

They backed us in everything that we did. That's why I say people is powerful, you know, when you stick to. together and come together to make a change. And make a change for the better, though. Yeah, it's been really cool. I knew that California home care workers did this a couple years ago because it was in Stephen Greenhouse's book, Beaten Down, Worked Up. We had him on the show a couple years ago.

And, you know, he describes this incredible story, you know, these workers who are separated out by long distances, you know, they don't know each other, how they organize to make their work lives better. And it's been so inspiring to see it roll across the country and see other states do the same thing. And I think either connected to something that you said, I think it is really psychologically powerful, too,

to say that, hey, caring for another person is work, even if you love them, you know? Like, I'm at an age where a lot of my friends, you know, I'm in my early 40s, my friends who, you know, are TV writers or their comedians, I say, hey, what's up? And they're like, oh, well, you know, I'm spending a lot of months at home right now

because my dad's pretty sick and I'm having to take care of them. You know, like, people reach that age where their parents, their parents start to ail. And I know some folks who have, you know, they've left their entire jobs just because they're like, I got to go care for a parent. And like they're not complaining about it, but I imagine, oh, if that was me, I'd say,

I'm giving up work to do this. Like, I'm not earning money for my family because I am caring for this person and the rest of the society is not providing. And there's no other way to pay for it. And so that means it is work that has a dollar value on it. You know, it is labor that must be performed by somebody unless we want, you know, sick people to just die in the street, which we don't want as a society.

So I feel like psychologically there's probably a lot of people out there who are just providing care to a loved one who appreciate hearing that, you know, oh, this is work that one can be compensated for and can't have dignity, you know, and solidarity. Yeah, no. I mean, I think of multiple examples of folks who, you know, home care workers I spoke to who were, you know, in their own words, very shy, reclusive, timid individuals who probably just saw their work is just something they would always do, like Ronnie said, like something that was just like, I'm going to care for a relative no matter what. And this campaign gave a lot of them the opportunity to really, you know, do public speaking for the first time really and maybe their entire life and really stand up and articulate, you know, why their work deserves to have the same respect as anybody else and why they should be taken seriously by these lawmakers that they're going talking directly to you know some bit from very influential people you know people you're getting to travel across the state getting to meet with

folks from different walks of life folks that you might not otherwise see you know you know folks coming from southeast michigan over to the other side of the state people going all the way up to the u p all that kind of work i mean i think that that definitely creates a shift in just how you view yourself and how you view the importance of your work, the significance of it, you know, wanting to take a more active role. You know, we think about campaigns over the decades that have to do a lot with just like dignity, you know, the whole campaign for member sanitation workers. You know, I am a man. Like that resonated a lot for black men in the South because it represented saying like, I'm taking a stand to you to show to the class at that time who was, you know, you know, making them basically an underclass, you know, making them like barely make any money

that, like, we're going to mobilize and come together and prove something. So I think that same things happen here, you know, when you're seeing a class of workers who otherwise may not get the same sort of attention when we think of traditional unions, you know, the campaigns that we've seen a lot of recently, I focus on efforts like Starbucks workers, you know, but they, they can at organize within their respective stores. We're talking about folks who don't have any regular meeting place, deciding that, like, as one, we're going to organize for an entire state apparatus, an entire network of folks who are doing this work.

So I think that, that to me, feels like the most awful thing that came out of that. Right. I mean, to really underline that, you said 10,000 home health care workers in Michigan. Over 30,000. Over 30,000, excuse me. And you had to win a union election. They had an election for whether or not they wanted to vote, whether they wanted to become a union or not.

And these are not people who knew each other beforehand and are naturally hanging out. And yet they were able to get over the threshold. That's a huge organizing challenge to get like, what is it, 15,000 and one votes? Or was it a two-thirds majority? Oh, man. This fight was an exciting fight. You had fun days, you had sad days, you had days where you had to pay attention. And like Ethan was saying, people coming from all walks of life. We didn't met people from over in Australia. That's what SEIU came over here and support this organization and support SEIU and support me, you know, and walk the streets and hung out up at the Capitol. When I say it was each time we had the at least three, four, five hundred people up in Lansing. The greatest experience that I had with SEIU is when we went to Philadelphia. It was 5,000 people there are strong.

Wow. And there was nothing but purple shirts and hats. And we walked from the Capitol there to, because they had something that was going there to, no, it was the convention. They always have a convention every four years. And when I tell you, man, getting people together and seeing that sea of people that's fighting for a cause. That was,

I mean, man, we got the sprinklers poured on us. You know, seriously, because we did a 24-hour one night and got the sprinkler

pulled on us, man, like a couple of times. We moved, go to the other side there, cut them on the other side. Wow. I was like,

this is crazy. But we, we stood fast and we got it done, man. We got the job done. Wow. And Rodney, you said you've done this

for 25 years. You've done this work. And this victory was very recent. So how is it change things for you to, you know, both your feelings and materially to, to, you know, be a part of that collective action now after I assume a couple decades doing it all by yourself. Yeah, you know, that was huge for me because it made my platform a lot bigger where my mouth

can get a lot bigger and I can talk more and tell more about this, you know what I'm saying, this great stuff that's happening. So since then, I started my own organization. It's called Detroit, Michigan Community Resource Steppers. And it's just about taking care of people, man. I can't see, I have four dogs. And I take care of them also, you know. But it's a hard, that's a full-time job. And if you want to do it, you've got to have a heart for it.

If you don't have a heart for it, then don't just be coming in thinking you're going to make some money and not take care of this person. Because it's a lot to come with that. It's a lot of responsibility, man, to take care of one person. So imagine you taking care of three or four, you know what I'm saying, people, you know. I hope somebody take care of me like that, man, seriously. Yeah. No, I think we would all be very lucky to have you taken care of us. Thank you.

In our old age, you're clearly... I'm with my... You're clearly a really caring guy. I'm sorry, you can't care for yourself in your old age. Exactly. But what did it mean to you to come into community with other people who are doing this work, right? After doing it solitary for a long time.

Was that a powerful experience for you? Yes, it was. Man. Everything about this, It was powerful. Everything. This would go down in the history of Rodney Tate seriously. My grandchildren, because we made history when we did this, we made history.

So my grandchildren and their children children are going to see my face and my name and books and stuff. So we fought for this and that we made a change. You know what I'm saying? Because statistics show that 60% of the end. elders right now. It's 60% elders right now and only like 20% younger. And if they don't know how to take care of us, then we do. We, man, we are going to be feces on ourselves, man, and urinating on ourselves and laying in it for, laying in it for two. Somebody decide they want to join me in there. Oh, it's stank in here. You think it's stanking here? I've been in here for three

days laying here. I can't move. Damn. See, this is, this is why. That's reality. This is why. This is why people should care about this. You don't want to be covered in feces when you're old. You want someone who's well paid and really cares about their work to take that feces off of you. Right. To make sure you don't get it on you in the first place. Right. Don't be coming in there to me. Ew. Ew. You better clean me up. Yeah. Imagine you can't talk. See, my best friend couldn't talk. So he was laying there. He was after that massive stroke, the only thing he could do is blink his eyes. And when he coughed, his body would bend. And that was the only time he would move. And one day I was cleaning him up

And I went to clean the scrown of him and stuff And he said, you know, he kind of tensed up I said, man, what's going on? I said, you don't want me to clean you up? He was like, no, I need a woman in here. You know what I'm saying? So I started laughing. I said, well, I'll leave him like it is

because I ain't want to touch you anyway, you know what I'm saying? But, you know, make a funny out of it. I still had to clean him up and he became comfortable with me cleaning him up, man. So, you know, shout out to him, man. Bless his heart. that, you know, that kind of intimacy between adults, especially adult men, man, as a precious thing, you know, when you actually have that connection with another person

and we care for each other. It's, it's really profound. You know, and I think you really will be remembered for this because, you know, in the Writers Guild, union I'm a member of, we talk all the time about the writers who formed our union 90 years ago and how we benefited from them. And then there was another group of writers who famously made a decision to give up a large portion of their residuals

to establish a health fund for the writers going forward. And, you know, we talk about them and say, those writers made a sacrifice in, I believe, the 60s or 70s, something like that to create the health plan that we're all members of today. And we say that to remind ourselves,

we're helping, you know, TV writers of the future. And when I think about how, now that's just TV writing. When I think about how many, you know, home health care workers in the future in Michigan, folks who just, you know, their family member falls on a hard time and they're, you know, going to the line and work to support them, that's huge to do that. And it benefits you because you're going to get old one day too. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that's one of the beautiful things that unions do is they create that sort of line of continuity, you know, solidarity forwards and backwards in time and also outwards throughout the community.

is such a beautiful thing. Folks, this episode is brought to you by Alma. A year from today, who do you want to be? What version of yourself would you like to meet? Would that version of yourself feel less anxious or feel more like the real you? Maybe your relationship is stronger or the grief that you carry feels smaller.

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You deserve to feel like that future version of yourself. And a year from today isn't that far away. So get started now at helloalma.com slash factually. That's helloalma.com slash FAC, T-U-A-L-L-Y. Where is the union drive at now? You guys have won the election, and you are a union, but you do not have a contract yet, right? Tell me about what you're trying to do now. Well, no, we don't have a contract yet.

And we're moving forward with having meetings and the next step. And what is the next step? Or is that still you can't, I know sometimes you can't say in union work. You're like, oh, it's confidential, you know. Yeah, it is. But the next step is going in bargaining. Yeah. Bargaining for what we want.

That's no secret. You know, so that's the next step of moving forward with this. You know, not let's see how far we can go. No, go in and demand what you deserve. Yeah. And what do you deserve if you can share or any of your demands public? I deserve benefits. Yeah.

I deserve paid time off. Mm-hmm. You know, overtime, if it comes with that, I deserve to be trained properly. Yeah. You know, I deserve respice. It's a lot of things you can put in there. We're going to stay at those small steps. Little small steps, you know.

Yeah, make those gains. I mean, even as someone who, you know, reports on labor issues, yeah, what do you think about the prospects for this effort going forward and what makes it unique? Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting. I think the campaigns, the conversations that Ronnie and other people were having was really focused on just like these really critical things are on affordability around people just really feeling strangleholded by inflation, things that have just been

getting worse and worse. So I think they have this stand of chance, obviously, right now with like the, Governor Whitmer still in office, with there still some desire and interest. You know, I think the success of the campaign, I think illustrates in some respects that across the party lines in places across the state, people really just saw this as really an economic issue about needing to benefit workers. It was some pushback by some conservative think tank in Michigan that was sort of looking at just challenging the actual results of the election. That's still ongoing. But for what Rodney and others are trying to do right now,

for what ICIU is trying to do right now, I feel like they have an open opportunity right now to really get some wins for them. Like Ronnie mentioned, I mean, respect care, you know, pay time up seems huge just because of the demanding 24-7 sort of work that's required of this. I know folks have talked about really wanting to see a way to say you need to take time off to handle a simple errand during the day or you just want to take a vacation, having those kinds of benefits in place because that will allow people to come back, energize, be able to have some relief that they've got an hour or two away from the relative or their client and they still don't take care of, but at least be able to, like, have a structure around their life that

isn't just dependent upon that, that time spent with that client. So I think that, to me, could be very easily articulated. I'm talking to you all now. Like, I mean, that's the engineering basic, but, you know, we'll see how it goes out. Yeah. And let me reiterate that. Please. This is a hard job. One day you're going to want somebody to scratch your back, scratch your butt and wipe your feet. This is your motto, huh? This is your motto? It is because, you know, this is what I live this.

Yeah. I've been living this for 25 years now. You know, and, you know, like I said, I played sports and stuff. My hips and stuff starting to crack and crackle and stuff, and I'm 60 years old. So, you know, how long is this going to be? I might be walking around until I'm 90. I might not. But I want somebody there to take care of me.

You know what I'm saying? And what better person to take care of you than a family member and they can get paid for it, conversated for it, or a friend, or being somewhere nice, because I've worked in nursing homes, man, and I've seen how the struggle is with the CNA trying to just take care of 20 people falling one day. That mean, giving 20 people not baths every day, but you got to clean them up, you know, you've got to clean up their room, you got to make sure their medicine is right, they got a high job. And they get paid. They get paid less. So, you know, it don't, it don't, it don't, it start here, but it's not going to stop here. It's going to go to the CNAs and to other people,

you know what I'm saying, in this field that deserve better. And, you know, the big, the big insurance companies, they get the money on it. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to kick some of that back. Take it back. I think it's so funny that, oh, sorry, go ahead, Ethan. Yeah, I wanted to add on, because I think another thing that really to me is unique about this. We're seeing right now in real time, the, you know, the current administration is trying to pull back federal protections for home care workers, you know, taking away federal rulings that were in place a decade ago about, you know, overtime, about minimum wages. And so the things that are happening in states like Michigan right now, I think are super huge because you basically need that

state level protection because there's no more federal protection for workers, like home care workers. So I think like beyond just what we're looking at here in Michigan, what could be seen in other states, you know, if they can mount similar campaigns, like what happened to you with SIU and Michigan home care workers, that would be, that'd be pretty significant. Because I think we're not looking at necessarily, yeah, a welcoming or worker-friendly government right now when it comes to those basic rights. Yeah. But, you know, what occurs to me is even the people who voted for the current federal

government, well, they all have sick relatives, too, you know, this stuff affects all of us and, you know, they also benefit from your effort. And I wonder if, you know, if you're able to make gains here, maybe that, maybe that changes some folks to, you know, come into community with, with other people in the structure of a labor union and go, oh, hold on a second, you know, we should be looking out for each other and not trying to pick each other's pocket all the time. I, maybe it's wishful thinking, but like, where are you in? Say again? What, where are you in? Where, where am I? Yeah, what world are you in? Oh, what world am I? what world am I in? Yeah, could be, could be. I mean, well, I'll tell you, man, you know,

again, and this is the, this is Writers Guild. It's a completely different universe than you're in, right? But there's some folks, obviously, who are, you know, they're Republican-minded, right? It's California, but they're, you know, of course, there's plenty of them. But like on the, on the labor stuff, on the issue, they're like, yeah, you know, the, the capitalists, they're trying to pick our pockets and, you know, we got to band together and fight back and because they're part of something, right? And that changes people a little bit. It doesn't change everything about them, you know,

but being a part of an organization, you know, is one of the most powerful ways to affect people's thinking for the better, I think, to put them in community with others who share something with them is really, really, really powerful. What was the, Rodney, what was the hardest part of the organizing effort for you? Because, again, it seems like it was really a challenge. The hardest part was misinformation, late information, or not correct. Just, you know what I'm saying?

That was the hardest part because, you know, and I understand it because I do a lot of things. So what was told to me today might not be told to me the same way, you know what I'm saying, tomorrow. Yeah. Things change. And that was the hardest part because, I mean, I kept my head with it because I seen what was going on. but, you know, this day ain't the same as this. And then a lot of, you know, just egos. There was a lot of egos here and there,

and a lot of people really wasn't getting the message of what we was doing. And then when that ball got the rolling, oh, my God. That's, I made a lot of friends, and I don't use that word lightly. Yeah. I made a lot of friends in these two and a half years messing with this. them like my brothers and sisters now, you know.

Yeah. We actually come into the table eating together. That's beautiful. It is a beautiful thing to get people together. When you get on that one fight, fighting for that common cause and you win, oh, that's the greatest feeling, man. It draws me in over and over again. And I'm always looking for more experiences like that myself to struggle with others

to have communal struggle. win is the most beautiful thing. And, you know, there's always in these efforts. There's misinformation and people who don't get it. But if enough of your peers get together, people start to understand what's going on, right? Right. So, you know, you know, to make somebody learn something like a dog or something, you just go keep clicking, click it, click it, every time they get it right, click it, click it, click it. So that's, that's how I got to be, you know what I'm saying? Seriously. Sometimes you just got to keep saying the same thing. You over and over and over and over and over and over again.

So when they kept seeing Michigan Home Care Workers Unite, they kept seeing them in them purple shirts. I know a lot of them was going home sleeping purple, seeing purple. I was even dressed up like Santa Claus. Yeah. With the purple gloves on. Come up. Purple Santa Claus?

I love it. Yes. That's so great. And that's such an iconic color for the wonderful union, SCIU. Just something else that occurs to me here is that like you're talking about, We got an aging population. We got this fucked up health care system in America. Everything is so expensive in it.

But you guys are doing the most basic work of the health care system, which is just caring for other people. You know, like just what did you say? Scratch in their back, scratching their butt and wiping their feet. Do I get it right? That's like that is the most basic thing we have to do. And for you guys to be paid so little, it's like this, this is the part of the medical system where that should be paid more.

not the device manufacturers who help with, you know, plastic surgery or whatever, but like, you know, you guys who are providing basic care, and by improving your ability to have a livelihood, we improve health care for people in Michigan, right? Because if the people who are caring for you are healthy, then you'll be healthier. Yes. Well, I said that in the beginning, like the big insurance companies,

the big people, they get all the money just because you got the degree and everything. But one day, you know, we are human. one day you're going to be in that position. And then somebody going to be like, well, you didn't care when you was a doctor or whatever. So I don't care now. Put him in a home. You know what I'm saying? And when he gets there, he's going to be like, oh, my God, did this, this what I voted for?

You sure did. Sure did. Now, that is a beautiful image, you know, because, yeah, we are all, you know, we're all naked in sickness and age. You know what I mean? We're all going to join that world one day. And we're all going to be lying in a bed and at the mercy of, you know, someone who's just a rank and file, you know, member of the health care profession. And we better pray that we live in a state where those people are not stressed out and not

overworked and where there's enough of them. And they had a good meal that day because otherwise, you know, you're going to be lined that bed going, what the hell's going on, right? Right. Right. Ethan, what lessons do you have? You know, I'm sure you have, you know, observed a whole lot of the labor movement in your work as a journalist. What do you think are the lessons to take away from this effort for the

rest of the labor movement? Yeah, I think, you know, funny a couple years before all this kind of came about. Obviously, we're talking about, you know, hot labor summer. If you happen with the UAW strike, you mentioned the writers guild, you know, all this stuff was sort of trickling and simmering or, yeah, on fire already. I think it just shows a continuation of You need to respond to some basic grocery concerns, basic utilities. We're seeing it play out in all different kinds of waste here in Michigan. Issues come up a couple months ago. I'm looking at data centers.

And the idea around people are saying, like, what really concerns them is the impact that it's going to have on their electricity price, their gas costs and stuff. So people are really concerned about dollars and cents a lot more than a lot of the other divisive things that sort of creep up. And so I think if you, you know, if you're looking at what is going to bring people together, what's going to bring out folks, you know, these midterms, what's going to bring out people in 2028, you know, if you're looking at it from that perspective, I think it really is about like, how are you ensuring that the broad spectral working class focus?

Because it's, you know, whether it's people, a lot of folks right now are underemployed, if not unemployed. And so trying to make sure that you're actually working to ensure that they have the wages and the benefits to afford to live out here, you know, to be able to make a living. You know, people shouldn't have to be thinking the types of questions, ultimately, that Rodney and others are sort of having to think about when they're just trying to help support, you know, their clients. So I think if anything is indicating of that, it's like you can get tens of thousands

people to show up to vote in favor of a union. I think that's a pretty good. And vote in favor of what the union represents, which is this idea of like solidarity across working people, cross race, across geography, in a state that is as big and, you know, diverse as Michigan. That is such a great point that like if you look at, hey, you're getting all these people who are diverse and disconnected to all get off. their asses and vote in tens of thousands because it affected their life in a material way.

It's going to make their actual lives better. And if you want to get them to get out of their house and go to the polls on Election Day, maybe you can promise something similar, right? Maybe you can make them feel like they're a part of something. And the thing that they're voting for is actually going to care for them, cares about their lives, and will make their lives better if they believe that. That's what will get them to vote. Is that your point?

Yeah. I mean, I think about a place like, you know, Detroit, where people may not always want to show up to the polls when it comes to election day for a variety of different reasons. I think like Rodney mentioned, there's about around 16,000 home care workers here, telling you that the amount of people who will show up for this because they really understand the impact that it's going to have on them down the road to see those benefits and wage increases come about. It says a lot more than focuses maybe optimism when it comes to politicians. So I think if you're creating a campaign that really focuses on those big benefits. basic needs, those material needs, like you said, like you're going to get a lot more people

to want to show up and get leave their houses or find somebody to get them arrive, find some way to mail in their ballot, you know, whatever reason. I think people are just going to really respond to that. I think that for me, just as a reporter, I felt like that really came through just watching this campaign in the last couple of years. Yeah, it makes me wish that politicians were more in touch with movements like this one because you really see, hey, this is how politics really works. This is how organizing really works.

This is how you really make change. Not with donors and TV ads and stuff. Let me tell you. Please. They scared of, see how you. Ah, yeah.

Man, listen, when we is in Washington, went up in the Capitol, man, they seen them purple shirts coming, man. It was, I was cracking.

I was, man, listen, I had so much fun in the Capitol here and in the Capitol there because I had my camera out the whole time and I'm talking, mess and they like, oh, shoot, he's one of them, pure.

I mean, they, it's afraid of SCIU because them purple shirts come, the purple ants says a lot, man. Listen, I had fun with, and especially in the end, I had so much fun. I was so energized, man, with knowing that we about to get, we about to win this thing. Yeah. And then I fought hard and I stayed in there from day one. They called me all the way until now, you know, that it was just a feeling, man, so real. Well, yeah. Rodney, for folks listening who, you know, maybe there's a lot of hopelessness

out there. People feel like they can't make their lives better. They can't make the world a better place, right? You've done something so inspiring under such difficult conditions. I'm just wondering what parting words you have for folks, if any. Listen, you're not old until you're dead. Yes. That's when you old. So keep living and live your life. every day like you're going to die tomorrow. Seriously. And keep loving your heart, you know, and keep moving forward. Because God got a plan for you.

He's not going to let you fail. And if you do, he's going to call me. I'm going to take care of you. And you will scratch my back, scratch my butt, wipe my feet. Wipe your feet. And I will be so lucky if you're the person doing that for me, Rodney. It was so beautiful talking to both of you guys. And just thank you so much for Rodney, for doing the work that you do.

and Ethan for telling the story. It's an example to all of us, I think, and it's just been so beautiful talking to you. Thank you, brother. Thank you. That's a great time. My God, thank you once again to Ethan and Rodney for coming on the show and sharing that story.

Absolutely incredible. Of course, if you want to support the show, patreon.com slash Adam Conover, is that URL. Five bucks a month gets you every episode of the show ad free. For 15 bucks a month, I'll read your name in the credits and put it in the credits of my video monologues.

This week I want to thank Adam P. Yuri Lowenthal, Lee Riggs, Vakridden Ibrugamov, Troy Stifler, and thanks for a great show at Punchline SF. If you want me to read your username, silly username, or special message on the podcast, patreon.com.com slash Adam Kanover. We'd love to have you. Of course, if you want to come see me on the road in La Jolla, California, April 18th at the Den Theater recording my new special,

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Sterling K. Brown. And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast, That Was Us, now on HeadGum. Each episode, we're going to go into a deep dive from our show, This Is Us. That's right. We're going to go episode by episode. We're also going to pepper in episodes with different guest stars and writers and casting directors. Are we going to cry? Yes. A little bit. Are we going to laugh? A lot.

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