Factually! with Adam Conover - Indigenous Science with Jessica Hernandez

Episode Date: February 16, 2022

What would our world look like if we paid more attention to the knowledge indigenous communities have discovered about the world around us? On the show this week is indigenous environmental scientist Jessica Hernandez. You can check out her book, Fresh Banana Leaves: Healing Indigenous Landscapes through Indigenous Science, at factuallypod.com/books. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So if all of that sounds good, if you want a big box of delicious snacks like this for yourself, use the code factually for $15 off your first order at Bokksu.com. That's code factually for $15 off your first order on Bokksu.com. I don't know the way I don't know what to think I don't know what to say Yeah, but that's alright Yeah, that's okay I don't know anything Hello and welcome to Factually, I'm Adam Conover.

Thank you so much for joining me once again as I talk to an amazing expert about all the incredible things that they know that I don't know and that you might not know. My mind is going to be blown. Your mind is going to be blown. Both of our minds are going to be blown together. We're going to have a great time. As always, this is my favorite part of my entire week and I'm so excited for you to join me. Now, I just want to say once again, if you want to support the show, head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover. I'm so grateful to everyone who has hopped on board the Patreon for brand new bonus podcast episodes and our community book club. themselves is going to join us for our live group discussion that we're going to be hosting on the Patreon. So if you feel like reading an amazing work of nonfiction and talking about it with

other like-minded people and with the author, head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover to support my work and the show. And I thank you so much for doing it. But let's get to today's episode. Let's talk about science today. You know, we have this narrative of scientific process that we all learn in school, at least here in America, we learn it this way, that science started in Europe somewhere between the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. And it was invented by a bunch of rich white gentlemen who stared up at the heavens so long that they felt the need to start some rigorous science-y organizations to share and confirm their starings. And, you know, later on, people like Darwin, gentleman scientists, headed out on leisurely sea voyages to draw charcoal sketches of birds and their weird feet and come to reasoned

conclusions using the process of logic and deduction, which had never before existed before that time, but which great men of the enlightenment brought fully into being. Now, not everything is wrong with that narrative, okay? Darwin's great. I'm not shitting on Darwin, okay? But this narrative carries with it an implication that before the age of European science, we knew nothing about the natural world around us, that science didn't exist before that moment. And of course, that's ridiculous. I mean, people have lived all around the world on almost every continent for millennia, and the people in those places learned a lot about their environments too, through close study

and through transmitting what they learned from generation to generation. I mean, how could they not? They literally had to do so to survive. And some of their discoveries were incredible. I mean, take the Mayan calendar, very famous example. The ancient Mayan civilization's understanding of astronomy was so sophisticated that they actually developed a calendar that is more exact than the one we use today. They used that calendar to plan out their agricultural system and help their society run better. And the entire thing could be carved on a monumental piece

of stone. I mean, this is pretty advanced stuff. Or think of the indigenous practice of controlled burning in the Western United States. Over millennia, the people of North America used fire to manage ecosystems, clearing out underbrush to make way for new growth. And again, they didn't just do this randomly. They did it because they observed over trial and error and long observation that this was the best way to help the ecosystem thrive in ways that benefited them and the world they lived in. Now, if that's not science, what is? But when white Europeans came, those tribes were forced off their land, the burning stopped, and the focus of those white Europeans turned to

extinguishing fires whenever they popped up. And that, as we have covered on this show and on Adam Ruins Everything, had devastating impacts on those ecosystems. In other words, that indigenous knowledge was lost and ignored. And these are just two famous examples. Huge amounts of real knowledge that indigenous civilizations and their people had about the natural world around them, knowledge that we really can call science, was lost to genocide and conquest. But, you know, despite this awful history, indigenous communities are still surviving and thriving across the world, and they are still maintaining systems of knowledge that could benefit us today if we were to just take them seriously for once in our goddamn lives.

We have to ask ourselves, how would it change our understanding of the world? How would it change our ability to safeguard the planet we live on if we finally started to give respect to the real scientific knowledge these communities hold? Well, to help us answer that question, our guest today is Dr. Jessica Hernandez. She is a Maya, Chorti, and Zapotec environmental scientist and the author of Fresh Banana Leaves, Healing Indigenous Landscapes Through Indigenous Science. This was such a fascinating conversation and I'm so excited for you to hear it. Please welcome Dr. Jessica Hernandez.

Jessica, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thank you for the invitation and for your team to setting this up as well. Of course. So your book has, the subtitle of the book has a phrase that's really fascinating to me right from the get-go. Indigenous science. What do you mean when you say indigenous science? Yeah, so I think indigenous science kind of comes from the term that, you know, I study the Western sciences. So, like, I have a background in marine science and also in forestry. And I think with indigenous science, what I refer to is just the longstanding knowledge formations that indigenous peoples have maintained through the generations.

It's, you know, knowledge about our environment, about our climate, and obviously that knowledge has adapted. So I'd rather use indigenous science rather than, you know, what most people know it as, which is traditional ecological knowledge as well. And so what are some examples of that? I'm sure you have plenty in your book. Yes, I would say indigenous science would probably be the way that we steward our environment. So the way that we care for our plant relatives, the way that we even view invasive species,

that oftentimes when we talk about invasive species, especially, you know, in environmental work, they're known as weeds, you know, we kind of aggressively remove them. But through indigenous science, we're also taught that we have to build a relationship with those plants and ask for their permission before removing them. So it's just, it goes beyond thinking of just ourselves and seeing how we are also interconnected to our environments and everything around us. Yeah, it's a different way of relating, I suppose. Yes. How did you come to write this book? I think I always wanted to write a book. And I think, you know, finishing the PhD, it kind of allowed me to have more time to write a book because, you know, I was worried about writing my dissertation at that time.

And I always wanted to write a book that kind of also included my father's story just because, you know, he was an indigenous child soldier during the Central American Civil War that, you know, it gained media attention in the United States in the 80s. But it didn't include that indigenous voice. Right. in the United States in the 80s, but it didn't include that indigenous voice, right? And unfortunately, you know, that war is known to have been a genocide by the United Nations, but there hasn't been any justice brought to the table when, you know, when you talk about genocide, especially against indigenous peoples of Guatemala, El Salvador. So I wanted to incorporate his book. And I think that just reflecting on all the teachings that he taught me, it was the best way to do that was, you know, to write about

indigenous science and our environment as well. Yeah. I mean, that seems like a wonderful place to start. I'd love to hear a little bit of his story that you tell in the book. Yeah. So I think his story starts when he's 11. And I think that it's important to mention that, you know, this opposition and this resistance movement that was happening in El Salvador and Guatemala started before he was, you know, 11. So during the 1960s, indigenous communities of Central America were kind of building this resistance movement to go against oppressive, you know, systems of oppression. And I say that because, you know, our lands were stolen and they were sold through land grabs to these international agricultural corporations. And, you know, one of those corporations ended up introducing bananas into our region, right?

introducing bananas into our region, right? Because they're plantations, basically. And the indigenous communities wanted to revolt and rebel against it because, you know, they were being oppressed, their lands were stolen. They're like, oh, there's all these bananas around. Suddenly we didn't ask for bananas. Yeah, and they were the ones harvesting them, getting paid peanuts for them, right? So they wanted to kind of, you know, you know, advocate for their rights.

And I think that as a result of that, the government kind of viewed it as, you know, the spread of communism. And when you use that word communism, obviously the United States and Canada, you know, they raised their hands and they're like, oh, we're going to support you so you can stop the spread of communism. So in this war, you know, the united states had a big responsibility right because they provided

the military with their equipment and they also provided the military with some aggressive training the military of el salvador yes the army um and this aggressive training obviously was very violent because it it wasn't necessarily seen before um you know after they got the training they were burned homes you know i want to mention a content warning they were burned homes with people inside just to scare people so that they wouldn't join the guerrilla or the opposing um side of this you know this dispute and because you know a lot of men were dying that's when they started recruiting children and especially boys so they started recruiting children as young as 10 or 11 and my father was of age so they will always come to his home trying to find him um but they couldn't find him right

because he will hide you know behind the trees or he will hide somewhere like because you know he knew his environment yeah yeah so you know it was something that he will hide from until they burn his home down. But luckily, my grandmother wasn't there. His siblings were not there. But that's when he was like, oh, this is sick. I have to join either the army or the guerrilla.

So instead of joining the army, because I think at a young age, he saw the oppression that he was facing. But children don't necessarily understand the levels of oppression or they don't understand, you know, the political systems or turmoil. So I think that it was out of reach that he was like, oh, I'm going to go join the guerrilla, the opposing team, right? Because they basically burned down his home. So he joined the guerrilla. He was 11.

Yeah, he was 11. And I mean, when I ask him, he thinks that he was an adult he was 11 and i mean when i ask him he thinks that he was an adult but i'm like no you were 11 you were still a child like you know but that was the mentality that that they had to adapt right in order for them to actually be able to fight so they were like oh yeah i was 11 but i was an adult already and i was like that's not what an adult is right you were not legal or you know in, in that, you know, United States context, like you couldn't, you were not 18. So you were still a child. And then he joined the guerrilla and his guerrilla, ironically, right?

Bananas became an invasive species that they were found everywhere. So in his encampment, you know, there was a banana tree that he will climb and play with and you know kind of made him his friend and i think that that banana tree allowed him to escape his reality right because as a child you're trying to suppress what's happening especially with traumatic events so he will talk to the tree he would kind of care for the tree as though it was a dog but you know obviously it was a banana tree and then and then three years later when he was 14 his encampment was bombarded right by the army because they found their location wow and but he recalls telling me and this is a story that always struck to me stuck to me especially as a child when he would tell me the story was that he saw a bomb dropping and you know he saw everything being obliterated, right?

Because that's what bombs do. So he ran under this banana tree and he saw a bomb dropping and he thought, you know, his life was going to end. You know, he was 14, but he was embracing himself, right, to lose his life. But what he saw was that the banana tree and especially the banana leaves kind of wrapped the bomb in a way that it didn't ignite. And he couldn't believe it, right? Because, you know, it sounds magical, right? When you think about it. The bomb landed in the banana leaves kind of wrapped the bomb in a way that it didn't ignite and he couldn't believe it right because you know it sounds magical right when you think the bomb landed in the banana tree yeah and then in the banana leaves kind of wrapped it in a way that it didn't ignite it could have just been you know a bomb that was malfunctioned or wasn't created correctly but you know it kind of embodies that whole story and teaching that he would tell me that, you know, nature protects us

as long as we protect nature, right? Because oftentimes we talk about the spiritual world, we talk about, you know, angels are protecting us, the spirits are protecting us, but, you know, also in our realm or in this earth, you know, it's animals and plants also protect us. So I think that, you know, that's why I decided to name it Fresh Banana Leaves because it gave him a fresh start because obviously after that he was able to escape and, you know, that's why I decided to name it Fresh Banana Leaves because it gave him a fresh start. Because obviously after that, he was able to escape and, you know, eventually seek refuge in the United States. But, you know, that's the premises of the title. Yeah, the title of the book is Fresh Banana Leaves because of that story. That's an incredible story.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, I wanted to write it down. So I was like, oh, and then when I was rereading, you know, because you write your book first before the title. It's like, oh, that would be a great title to write it down so I was like oh and then when I was rereading you know because you write your book first before the title it's like oh that would be a great title to to name it it's oh man it really makes me think of like my dad has stories like that where I'm like man way more intense things happen to you as a kid than happened to me and make me makes me feel like a little a little strange as a kid to like not have gone through what our parents go through. I don't know if you ever feel that way. Yeah. And I think that, you know, oftentimes we forget that, you know, there is intergenerational trauma.

So even though they went through it and, you know, it's passed down to us in different ways that we may not see clearly how they're manifested. But then, you know, when you go to therapy or you, you know, see counseling, you're like, oh, wait, that is true. Like, that's trauma that was passed down to me. Yeah. Well, how does that story, like, you know, lead to, you know, the broader themes of your book? I think that story leads to the broader themes just because, you know,

when we talk about conservation, when we talk about climate change, it's Indigenous voices that are not at the table. Right. Like we often say, oh, you know, we we love those pictures that we see the United Nations post every year. Right. With indigenous peoples. But when it comes to actually inviting them to the table where they actually have a say, you know, there's no indigenous peoples to be found at those tables. And I think that it kind of embodies the fact that, you know, this war broke because it was a resistance movement against the government. It was a resistance movement against the land theft. And we're still seeing the impacts of, you know, environmental impacts because, you know, we no longer steward our lands, right? We no longer steward our lands, right? We introduce these extractive processes, whether trees. Like you said, this is a tree that was brought to the country in order to, you know, practice extractive capitalism, right? practice extractive capitalism, right?

Plant the banana trees all over, export them to other countries, have the people of El Salvador, you know, harvest them for very low wages. Like that banana tree is like symbolic of that extractive process, but it still is the thing your father credits with saving his life. So is that a tension in there

or is that part of the story for you? I think that, you you know oftentimes we have to blame you know who is responsible right and obviously you know plants are not necessarily responsible because they didn't decide to come to our country right they were not like oh let's move out um but it was the people right the systems that were yeah behind it and i think that you know the way that we view invasive species, and this has been a teaching that, you know, I cannot say that all indigenous communities follow, but at least that I was taught was that invasive species, we should see them as displaced relatives,

right? Because they are all, you know, all plant species are native to somewhere and where they're native to, they're someone's relative. So I think that even this banana tree yeah there could be tension right because it's it's not necessarily a native species species right so it's not something that we grew up with but it has become a displaced relative where we incorporate fresh banana leaves into our cooking right if you have ever had central american tamales they're different from mexican tamales because we don't use the corn husk. We use the banana leaves to, you know, wrap them around.

And I think that because of that, they have been incorporated into our traditional foods. And, you know, yeah, there is tension. Like, thank you for bringing that up, right? Because it's not a native species, but, you know, it's become a relative to that point that, you know, we consume it now as a result of that. But yeah, I mean, even that is a more, I don't know what the word I want to use is holistic way to look at invasive species. Or again, I want to say quote invasive species. Cause that's, that was the term that I was brought up right in you know,

a sort of that was a sort of conservationism that I was raised in was like, Oh, these are invasive species and these are bad. And we dislike those and they're weeds. We should pull them up and things like that. But it sort of is too cruel to A, our relationships with those species, because there are so many invasive or non-native species that people love and have become part of people's culture but also the the the species themselves are innocent of anything they're just they're just trying to they're just trying to grow and thrive and and have baby banana banana trees right yeah yeah and i mean you know obviously they do have like sometimes they have negative impacts in our environments but in el salvador right um they

have thrived in a way that you know know, it hasn't harmed our environments, but it's agricultural processes that make these plantations, right, using pesticides, using all these harmful chemicals that are actually impacting our environment. When you talk about having a seat at the table, right, indigenous communities not being invited to the places where those decisions are made, what are the effects of that? When, you know, the fact that those communities are not included in that process, what is the, what's bad about that? I think what's bad about that is the fact that, you know, when we talk about climate change impacts, right, if we live in a city, we might be understanding how climate change are impacting our communities, our cities, when we have extreme weather events, right, whether it be extreme heat waves. But when we talk about indigenous communities, climate change has been impacting them for the longest. And that's because you know we live closer to nature we live in rural areas we we kind of depend on nature right for food sovereignty for a food source for our medicines and i think that it's it's bad right as you mentioned because you know when we talk about the world's biodiversity, it's indigenous peoples who are still caretaking 80% of the world's biodiversity.

Really? 80%? Yes, 80%, which is a lot, right? But the 20%, it's not being stewarded by non-indigenous peoples. But then when we talk about policies that kind of talk about endangered species or biodiversity, we don't incorporate indigenous people. So then you're talking about people who are storing 80% yet when you make laws, you're not even including them in those conversations.

So you mean that in all of the land around the world that indigenous people are stewarding, that that land sort of comprises like 80% of the biodiversity on Earth to some degree. Did I get that right? Yes. None of this is really just the land because, you know, oftentimes like when we talk about biodiversity, it's like, you know, how many animals are thriving in an environment. So an example would be the Amazon rainforest, right?

It has like a large biodiversity. So an example would be the Amazon rainforest, right? It has like a large biodiversity. You know, obviously that's a, maybe that's not a great example because it also has a large land mass, but yeah, it you take all indigenous communities around the world and look at all of the, the, the biodiversity that they are sort of like stewarding, caring for, or is under their care, that makes up 80% of the world's biodiversity,

even though it's not a, obviously not 80% of the land. Yes. Yes. And I think that, you know, when we talk about like, even,

you know, we try to save in danger animals, but, you know, or endangered species, whether it be also plants, we're not including them at the table. But then, you know, they're doing something right, right? Because they're storing 80% of the world's biodiversity. Yeah, no, that's a good point that it's when I get, you know, a mailer at my house saying, hey, donate to save, you know, this or that species or even save the rainforests, right? That's been since I was a kid, you know, that's been a slogan, save the rainforests. But there's almost never an inclusion of like the people who live in the rainforest have historically lived there and have like cared for that space.

Like that's sort of completely left out of the conversation. You're right. Yeah. And thank you for bringing that up. Right. Cause that's a great example. Like you see like save the rainforest, but not the rainforest people.

Yeah. I mean, well, I want to talk more about this, about this concept of indigenous science. My understanding is that what you're saying is that the knowledge that indigenous folks have about nature is like real knowledge. Like you're talking about longstanding uh, knowledge that's passed down. And we often think of that as being kind of like, oh, that's nice. It's like a folk tale or something like that. You know,

a storyteller on the fire rather than, you know, science capital S, uh, you know, like that's, that's British guys in wigs who are like, you know, inventing the thermometer and stuff like that. Right. Or, or, you know, large, the Large Hadron Collider, that sort of thing. So, but tell me more about that sort of like indigenous knowledge and why you call it science. Yeah, I think I call it science because like, as I mentioned, I was trained in, you know, in Western academia. I hold a PhD in sciences, right? And when I look at how science, and I call it Western science, right, what you're referring to, where you basically have big posters of these British guys with wigs on. also similar to the indigenous knowledges that we have been maintaining and obviously it's not passed down through textbooks right and i think that's a big issue or tension that we have in the in the sciences as to why indigenous science is not kind of included right because we don't write them in the textbooks we don't we don't coin um the founders of science you know to indigenous

peoples and i think that with indigenous sciences, because it's passed down through storytelling, as you mentioned, oral storytelling, prayers, songs, you know, our traditions, our ceremonies, it's not, you know, it doesn't align to how society views knowledge to be formulated, right? Where we do an experiment, where we publish the results, collect data but data in numerical right numerical data that's you know oftentimes what science cares about and that's why i call it indigenous science because you know it's it's been formulated and i think that it has a longer history than european sciences right where you know those those men come from as well

yeah i mean you're saying this is a form of real knowledge about the world. Like, again, do you have any sort of example of like a particular piece of indigenous science or knowledge that like works that way? That's something that, you know, and indigenous folks know that, you know, Western science missed.

Let's see. I would just, I always bring up the example of our milpas. And our milpas are basically these agricultural systems that have been here for years before colonization. So they, they're ancestral practices. And with these milpas, unlike, you know, the agricultural systems that we see today, we don't necessarily have to do much, right? We don't have to put pesticides in them because the way that the plants that are in this milpa, in this, you know, obviously those animals are also hunted or consumed by our communities. But with these milpas, the crops thrive without, you know, having to add fertilizer, without having to add anything. And during, let's see, during August and, you know, the summer season, they burned for some reason, right? Like, you know, I haven't studied the Western science behind this. I don't know how to explain that. But, you know, it's just the heat, the temperatures, they burn down, and then they regenerate. So, you know, oftentimes, they use

that example a lot in like permaculture, right? Because permaculture kind of embodies this holistic environment. But, you know, it's just been something that we have been able to do. And when you look at agricultural practices today, right, like even prescribed burning to prevent wildfires in California have been used by tribes and indigenous peoples on the West Coast. But because they haven't been integrated, we're seeing this increase of wildfires, especially as climatic conditions change. So that would be another example as well. especially as climatic conditions change. So that would be another example as well. Yeah, we've talked about that example of wildfires on this show,

and it's one of my favorites that the indigenous people of the Western United States, actually most of the United States, I think, well, let's say North America, sorry, used to do like controlled burns to like manage the forest for like millennia. And then when in a lot of cases, like Western conservationists, like John Muir showed up, they ended that practice and it actually reduced the biodiversity and sort of harmed the ecosystem

because it was, this was like a practice that was, it was a very good, you know, ecological management practice that had been in longstanding that they knew about and the supposedly really well-educated dude, John Muir, didn't. But wait, so I think I've heard of milpas, but could you tell me, because I don't want to get it wrong, exactly what they are? Yeah, so they have our corn, they have our squash, they have our beans. Yeah, so they have our corn, they have our squash, they have our beans.

So the milpas, you will tell that they're milpas because you see a lot of corn, right? Because that's one of our main foods. And I think that maybe that's why you heard of it, like the milpas. We make tortillas out of the corn. We also have armadillos because they're consumed. At least I'm speaking in terms of like my maternal lands in Oaxaca. We also have grasshoppers. So I don't know if you have tried grasshoppers,

but we also eat those. So we consume everything that comes from the milpas. So yeah, that's what I would call it. And then we plant crops that, you know, are tailored to our dietary needs. So, you know, we want to plant, let's say, pumpkin or things like that. And we do that as well.

And my understanding is they're planted like together in one spot, right? As opposed to the sort of, you know, European tradition of like planting all one crop along a big area. Like here's a huge field of corn. It's like more of a, here's like a basin that has a bunch of different things growing in it that sort of all work together, right? And to protect each other from pests, like you say. Yeah, and all the work that we have to do is either harvest it or, you know, steward it every now and then. But it doesn't require us to use like tons of water or pesticides to maintain those systems. Got it. Okay. So this is a, this is a form of agriculture that requires less pesticides,

less water, less work and maintenance that like regenerates itself through catching on fire occasionally. That is like millennia, millennia old. And yeah, that's a real, that's like an agricultural technology and the process of developing it. Yeah. What else would you call that other than science and people through trial and error learning to do this thing right is that is that the idea yeah basically right to the point that you know it's been you know generations as you mentioned since time immemorial that we have had this meal plan and it has you know thankfully has been to maintaining our communities despite um despite colonization and, you know, obviously the land theft that we experienced as well. Yeah. It's still something that is like widely practiced.

Yes. That is really cool. Well, look, I have so many more questions for you, but let's take a really quick break. We'll be right back with more Dr. Jessica Hernandez. Okay, we're back with Dr. Jessica Hernandez. So we're talking about indigenous science, indigenous conservation. I'd love to talk about the conservation piece of it because that's something that's very important to me that I grew up caring a lot about, that I still care a lot about, wildlife conservation, ecological conservation. But I've always experienced it

through a completely Western lens, because that's the group that I grew up in, right, as a white American. That's the tradition I was raised in. What do you feel, in terms of conservation specifically, does that sort of Western conservation tradition miss that indigenous knowledge can add to? I think you brought this up before, right? Where you were saying, oh, I get pamphlets sent home where you want to save the rainforest or you want to save the turtles. And I think that that's a critique, right, that we can make where conservation just focuses on one thing, not necessarily the holistic ecosystem, right? Because when we talk about why are the turtles in danger, we have to look at, you know, the ocean conditions. We have to look at the landscapes. We have to look at the overall picture have to look at the overall picture and i think that with conservation and still today we only focus on one thing as opposed to looking at the entire

ecosystem like indigenous science teaches us to do yeah that's a really good point starting with the people are are left out of the the whole picture but like so when you talk about that okay instead of just looking at the turtles, right? Or just looking at the elephants, what is the broader picture that we should be looking at and taking into account? Yeah, we have to look like, for instance, the turtles, we have to look at the oceans, right?

And then if the oceans are being polluted, then we have to look at the energy industry because a lot of the oil drilling happens in our oceans. We also have to look at the shipping, right? Because when we export and import, a lot of the shipping actually pollutes our oceans. We also have to look at the land, right? Because somehow everything that's on land ends up in our oceans, especially in coastal cities like Hawaii or, you know, islands as well. in coastal cities like Hawaii or, you know, islands as well.

And I think that with indigenous science, we look at the overall picture as opposed to just focusing on the one thing. And I think that as a result of that, you know, we're able to adapt to those environmental changes and address the impacts from, you know, from point A as opposed to from point, you know, F or something like that. as opposed to from point F or something like that. Yeah. You know what this makes me think of is we had the nature writer, Elizabeth Colbert, on the show, who's one of my favorite writers. And her most recent book is about how we keep making these,

especially in America, these really effortful attempts to save something in nature. You know, there's a, uh, there's, there's an invasive species and it's in a, you know, an invasive fish species in a river and it's eating all of the native fish and we want to save those native fish. So we go to these great lengths to try to get rid of the invasive species. We poison the water or we set up electrical barriers and we end up even sort of further degrading the environment that we're that we're trying to save she has example after example like that of you know we do something that causes a problem and then we try to fix that problem by doing something

else that causes other problems and it occurs to me while you're talking that maybe that's a failure to look at it holistically to look look at the overall picture, the entire ecosystem and environment and think about what it needs overall, because we're hyper-focusing on trying to get a single outcome, trying to solve a single problem rather than looking at the whole picture. Yeah, and that also parallels to our other daily lives, right? When we talk about Western medicine, if you have a headache, they give you a pill for your headache, but it could be something else.

And then obviously taking that pill, that Tylenol may have another impact on your body. So it kind of parallels the way that, you know, and it's all embedded in the Western science, how it tends to be very linear as opposed to holistic, right? Where we're looking at all these multi-points, all these layers that make up that one,

you know, question that we're trying to address or that one problem we're trying to solve. Yeah. Well, I want to talk about something though, because you've, we've both said the word holistic a bunch of times and especially, I also grew up in a tradition where the word holistic was almost like a little bit of a dirty word because it was a little, you know, a little woo-woo, a little not serious. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, holistic medicine or holistic, you know, conservation. Are you talking about crystals and, you know, lighting incense and stuff like that? And, you know, when I hear you talk about it, it's clear that that's not what you're talking about.

You're talking about taking a scientific approach, but looking at a whole system rather than a single piece of it, looking at the people, looking at the environment. But I think it's really telling that, like, that word holistic, which just means looking at one thing wholly, we have, you know, used, it's sort of like turned into a little bit of a derogatory term in some parts of Western culture. When people talk about holistic medicine, they sometimes just mean, oh, medicine that doesn't work, right? Like quack medicine. But I don't know if you have any thoughts on our relationships with those words. Yeah. And I think, thank you for bringing that up, right? Because when we talk about holistic, we tend to attach it to, you know, to those mysticals, to the hippie movements.

But when I talk about holistic, it's kind of like looking at the puzzle pieces, but not looking at the overall puzzle, right? And I think that that's an example that people can relate to, especially during quarantine, right? Hopefully a lot of us are probably building puzzles or, you know, forming them.

But if we're just looking at that one piece and not at the overall picture, we're never going to be able to solve the puzzle, right? Because we're not even going to know what we're solving. And I think that that's a way that Western science sometimes ends up doing. And, you know, and thank you for bringing up the writer, right? Because she's mentioning how, you know, we're looking at the pieces, but we don't know what we're actually solving in the puzzle. So I think that, you know, hopefully that helps the audience understand what I mean by holistic. And say, what is the picture we're actually trying to make here? We're not just trying to fit two pieces together. We're not just trying to save a single species or a single waterway.

We're trying to create an earth, a planet that allows all of us to thrive and flourish and preserve the things that we care about most. And that means looking at all of it at once. It means looking at all people at once. And that's, again, why it's so important to keep Indigenous folks in the conversation. I'm really getting that from talking to you. Yeah, thank you. Hopefully I'm making sense too, right?

No, you absolutely are. I'd love to talk about climate change. You said earlier that Indigenous people are really subject to climate change, obviously. I'd love to talk about some of those impacts, but I'd also love to talk about how, you know, Indigenous knowledge could be potentially used to address climate change. Back to, you know, the example that we brought up about the milpas. Because of climate change impacts, we're seeing extreme weather conditions, right? During the hurricane season, a lot of our indigenous communities lost their milpas because, you know, they flooded. And when it's extremely hot, you know, they dry out. And I think that because, you know, while these milpas are, you know, these holistic agricultural systems, you know, they're not equipped to sustain these extreme weather

conditions, right? Whether it be extreme heat or extreme drought. And I think that that's an example of how even our ancestral knowledge that's passed down through the Amilpas is being jeopardized or it's, you know, threatened because of climate change impacts. Yeah. But when you look at the fight to, you know, slow or stop climate change as best we can, and that being a conversation that like indigenous communities are left out of, or often indigenous communities are the ones saying, like, hey, we need to do something more, you know, you got like, hey, everyone else on the UN Security Council needs to like do, you know, do more and protect, especially like very small countries, you know, that have large indigenous populations tend to be

the ones screaming from the rafters about this while larger, more powerful countries are doing less. But what, you know, when we look at trying to stop climate change, what are the contributions that, you know, Indigenous communities could make? Or if we were to look at, you know, Indigenous practices, what are things that we could adopt that could make a difference? I think just even looking at the fact that for Indigenous communities, we have all adapted, right, to our changing environments because of colonization. We have adapted to this society where, you know know we are adapting with technology alongside technology as well something that you know we had different technologies back in the days but you know it

wasn't the same technology as an iphone or you know when we talk about those things and i think just that um ability to be able to adapt to those changes especially and see those um changes happen in the environments that you you know, where your great grandparents lived, where, you know, your ancestors walked on. It kind of shows the resilience and also the ability to adapt that Indigenous peoples have. And just saying that Indigenous peoples, you know, are also experiencing climate change impacts, you know, we're taking action, we are adapting to those changes. And I think that as a result of that, we can, you know, we're taking action, we are adapting to those changes. And I think that as a result of that, we can, you know, offer those adaptations and mitigation strategies that,

you know, we see a lot of funding, kind of support mitigation adaptation efforts that many cities or other areas are, you know, trying to implement. But, you know, we don't invite Indigenous peoples to share their knowledge, especially the indigenous peoples of the lands that we know we're trying to, in other words, safe, right? As you mentioned, that conservation teaches us to do. Yeah. I mean, first of all, it's funny you're talking about mitigation because mitigation is often like another dirty word when it comes to climate change because we want to say, no, we don't want to just mitigate and like adapt. want to solve the problem you know and i often feel that way when i hear a politician say oh we need to like adapt to climate change like no we need to stop emitting as much as

we emit but realistically we are going to have to adapt um because you know the climate is already changing we need to be adapting already in, in California where I live. It's clear that the way that we have been living is not going to be possible for the next, uh, couple of decades that, you know, we're, we're having constant drought and constant wildfires. You need to live in different places and have different practices. Um, so I think you're right about that. Um, but what, so what would that look like to, you said indigenous communities are not being invited to share knowledge. What would it look like for them to be invited to share? And are there any examples of indigenous communities sharing this knowledge in a way that has been really productive?

Yeah, I think that an example that I can kind of tie to where i live in seattle is just the management of salmon species right so we know that salmon am i pronouncing it correctly salmon yeah yeah yeah salmon okay that's what i say salmon maybe maybe someone else listening pronounces it differently but i i definitely say salmon so i think we're on the same page because sometimes i tend to think in all my um languages and I'm like, wait, how do you pronounce that word? Oh, okay. You're juggling a lot of words in here. My four languages. Incredible. The tribes had to fight for those treaty rights where they can actually harvest 50% of the salmon species in the state of Washington. And we're seeing how a lot of conservation is always trying to save the salmon. But for indigenous peoples are integrating their traditional ecological knowledge to save the salmon,

to address the knowledges that their ancestors passed down to them. And also kind of breaking down how conservation views the salmon, Also, kind of breaking down how conservation views of salmon because, you know, they're basically advocating for the fact that salmon is also a cultural keystone species for them, right? It's a spiritual practice that they also embody as their relatives. And I mean, I wouldn't say it's like a 100% effective example, but I'm seeing the Washington State tribes be acknowledged for their expertise, especially around salmon and salmon population management as well. Okay, that's a great example. So, like, you know, obviously the tribes in Washington State have been harvesting salmon for an extremely long time, since far before, you know, any of the modern cities there were founded or Europeans came there. cities there were founded or Europeans came there. So if you are a conservationist there who wants to make sure that this heritage species, this incredibly important species, salmon, continue

to be around, you should probably ask the people who've been successfully managing it the longest and give them, not just ask them, but give them power over the species as they've done after a big fight. Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's also important to, you know, do that without having to necessarily have treaty rights enacted, right? Because in the state of Washington, treaty rights are respected just because of that resistance movement and that fight that tribes had in the federal level where they, you know, I don't know if you have heard of the Bolt decision where a judge decided, you know, to grant indigenous peoples and, you know, Coast Salish tribes in the state of Washington their rights to the treaty rights that they had signed when, you know, colonization

happened in this area. Wow. Hold on. A treaty with a Native American tribe that is being respected by the United States government? Is that really happening? Yeah, parts of it. It's not the entire treaties, but like part of the treaties where, you know, they're being allowed, you know, their salmon populations and things like that. But it's not the entire treaty. Otherwise, that would be crazy. No, I know. It's just maybe the first example I've ever heard of, of treaty rights actually being respected. It's extremely rare. It's more often you hear, oh, there was a treaty, but it was broken. It was broken down and all that.

That's amazing. I mean, what are your hopes for ways that this model could be used in the future, you know, in terms of other groups that could be given a seat at the table, given, you know, power over these systems that we all want to protect or being allowed to use their knowledge? that, you know, tying it back to that 80% of the world's biodiversity, 50% of the world's biodiversity is located in, you know, what we call Latin America today. And I think that, you know, when we talk about indigenous communities and indigenous leaders, they're being persecuted for, you know, speaking up against environmental injustices, climate injustices, you know, you know, I want to say a content warning. A lot of our Indigenous leaders are murder, and a lot of our Indigenous leaders from Latin America tend to be women. So, you know, even it's a privilege for me to have been able to write this book, right? Because in my lens, people like me are persecuted for speaking up on our environment, for speaking up about

the inclusion of Indigenous rights and indigenous sovereignty, especially when we talk about management and policy practices that are enacted on our natural resources. Yeah. Okay. A question that just occurred to me, and I'm sorry I'm jumping around a little bit here, but I'm just like processing everything that you're saying, is we've been talking about indigenous science and this knowledge that indigenous folks have built and, you know, maintained over centuries, millennia, and why we should take that seriously. But one thing I'm curious about is, is there a way of doing science into the future, rather than just thinking about, you know, the knowledge that's come from the past, that we would call indigenous science? You know, is there an indigenous practice of science

that discovers new things or that, you know, grows in the world? Does that make sense as a question? Yeah, it kind of ties to the indigenous futures, right? And that's like a whole, what is it, discipline that, you know, it's an academia indigenous futures. And you're also giving me my idea for my second book. So thank you for that. I'm going to give you credit. But, you know, yeah. Oh, my gosh. I would be beyond honored.

I think that it's important, right, to not just look at it from the past, but I think that we haven't been able to look at it in the future because, you know, our indigenous science that comes from the past is continued to be invalidated. And I think that when we start including indigenous science and blending it, because, you know, I'm not saying that Western science that came from Europe is bad, but when we start blending both together, it will allow us to look at, you know, creating better solutions, more holistic solutions that, you know, that will kind of help us, you know, in the long term, maybe beyond our

generation, save the planet. And I think that, you know, when we start including indigenous sciences, it's going to allow us to, you know, understand how the indigenous science can be seen or applied to the future as well. But we're not there yet. And hopefully, you know, conversations like this change. I hope so. Is that something I'm curious in your own work? You know, as a, like I said, you have a PhD, a dissertation, and you're, you know, continuing to work in science. Is that, how do you bring in your own indigenous heritage into the practice of science? Like, does it, do you feel that it influences the work that you do?

I mean, I know this, you wrote a whole book about it, but in terms of your, you know, actual research you may be doing, is there a component of that? Yeah, like, for instance, right now I'm doing environmental physics research where I'm focusing on energy, and one of the things that I'm doing is incorporating the indigenous science, like, how do indigenous peoples view energy, right? Because when we talk about the concept of energy it was created during the british industrial revolution to power steamships to power engines but when we look at energy from an indigenous lens energy is something that was captured from the sun it was something that allowed indigenous peoples to practice their spirituality and i think that you know that's different based on the indigenous community or tribe we're talking about. But that's an example of how

I continue to kind of blend in indigenous science in the way that we view these concepts, especially how energy is very integrated in climate change, right? Either climate change impacts with the extractive energy or climate change solutions with the renewable energy discourse. the extractive energy or climate change solutions with the renewable energy discourse. That is really cool. I mean, it seems like very much a different way of seeing when you're looking at the natural world. But what I'm really interested in is not just how you might look at it differently, but what, what different things you might see, you know, when you look at the natural world through that lens, like what,

what other, you know, real discoveries you might make, you know, because there's a, there's a, I don't know, again, there, like the, the really uncharitable way to, to look at these things is to say, oh, well, this is a, this, well, you've mentioned spirituality. We've, again, used the word holistic. And there's a prejudice against those words as being soft and not really the hard science that really helps us discover what's actually out there in the world. But it strikes me that like when you look at the natural world through that lens, you actually will discover different things, like real truths about the world that are different than you might see if you were just like looking through a like really, I don't know, hard-nosed Western scientific tradition. Does that make sense?

Yes. And I think maybe, I don't know if this answers your question, so feel free to, you know, ask it again. But I think that even going back to- I don't even know what I was asking. Even going back to banana leaves, right? For our indigenous communities, we have used banana leaves to make baskets or to make bags, to make things that we can carry things on that tend to be stronger than plastic. And I think I read an article recently on how engineers are using banana leaves to kind of combat the plastic waste that we use, that overconsumption of plastic. So even seeing how we found out that banana leaves can be woven in a way that it can hold a lot of weight, especially when we go to buy stuff or harvest or collect things.

And people are picking that up, right? It's hopefully that's maybe an example of how we can be indigenous science, that knowledge that we gather from banana leaves actually being strong enough to carry things, to use it, to kind of, you know, solve that problem with the plastic, you know, the overconsumption of plastic our society depends on. Yeah. or consumption of plastic our society depends on.

Yeah. Do you feel that we're starting to see change in the way that conservation organizations or scientific organizations see these issues? Again, all these organizations that are used to sending out the pamphlets that don't have indigenous people in them, right? Or et cetera. Are they starting to get the memo?

Are you starting to see any change or no? I think so. And I think that the change starts with these organizations kind of dissecting their history, right? And I think that when we talk about even the history of conservation, right? When we talk about national parks,

there is this indigenous history where the indigenous peoples of these areas were violently removed. Right. Because President Roosevelt decided that, you know, he wanted to make that a national park and kind of build on conservation and protect that, you know, that environment. And I think that when these organizations can grapple and understand their own histories, I think that, you know, that's when they can create solutions that ratify those injustices or that, you know, bring solutions that, you know, will help us see a different future in our lifetime. Why do you think, I always wonder this, that, because there's so many examples of that, right? Where people in the history of the United States, just speaking of the United States, I'm sure it's true around the world, but, you know, there are these people who really love nature, who love the natural world, you know, who in a real genuine way, John Muir and Roosevelt

and all these people, right? But, and that's a hard enough thing to do, right? So much of human society says, no, just technology and let's, you know, capitalism and all those sorts of things, Forget about the streams in the forest. You know what I mean? So it's already, these are people who are tuned in more to the world than others, right? Yet they, and I'm going to include myself in this, we so often forget to also love the people who are there, right? Who are in that natural environment. right. Who are in that natural environment. Oh my gosh. I love, you know, Yellowstone national park or Yosemite national park. Um, but I don't really like the people who are there. Let's kick them all out. Right. And just preserve the trees, right. Or, you know, save the rainforest, but, oh, well, don't, don't worry about the people who live there. Right. Um, and, and so we, we love the world around us, but we don't extend that same love to, to other people, right. Who are, and those people are just as, you know, just as, just as worthy of love as, you know, the animals that live in that space. So like, why do you,

do you have any guesses why that is? Why we have, why we've historically had so much trouble extending that love and care to each other, you know? I think it goes back to even the way that we um are taught environmental sciences in the k through 12 educational system right like even before rosabelle's time you know textbooks were talking about plant life cycles without including people um we can talk about fish life cycles without including people and i think that because we have compartmentalized, you know, these plants and these animals into boxes where to the point where their life cycles do not include that human aspect. We, you know, we grow up viewing all the fish, but we never talk about the people that, you know, that fish, you know, that specific species or that people that depend on that fish.

And I think that, I think it all starts with a K through 12 educational system. But unfortunately, you know, we're seeing the current debates on, you know, what they point out as a critical race theory today, right? So how are we going to move the needle in education when we're seeing a lot of people go against even, you know, just incorporating Black or Indigenous histories or other histories of the United States. So. Yeah, I know. And that, by the way, is what you're, you know, when we talk about holistic, yeah, we're talking about when we're learning about a species, to also learn about the people who helped make that species what it is. If you love a particular, yeah, the salmon, you can't tell the story of salmon in the United States

without telling the story of the people who managed that species for millennia, right? Who evolved with that species. And yeah, it's really disheartening that we're seeing such pushback in our education system against just teaching people more accurate history of ecology and, you know, the history of our own country or of our own, you know, continent. It's, yeah, it's disheartening to see that, but it's also, you know, there's only that pushback

because so many people are trying to change it. So that's a bright side. Yeah, and I think that, you know, even when I teach my courses, you know, to adults, right, because they're college students, I have them draw a life cycle of salmon or draw a life cycle of a certain animal, especially in conservation and environmental science courses. And then I make them reflect as to why I didn't include the human aspect.

And it goes back to, you know, all of them say it was the way that we were taught in k through 12 and in k through 12 you're as a child you're not taught to question the knowledge that you're passed down right you're just taking it um unless you know your parents complain initially the parents complaining that yourself so um you know we have to move those discussions in the K-12. And yeah, we're seeing that, right? With the critical race debate and all these Senate bills being passed. Oh, my gosh. Well, let's find a nice place to end here.

For folks who are listening and are, you know, opening their minds to this way of thinking, like, how is this? How do you suggest they take this you know in their daily lives like how can they you know think differently about you know science about the natural world in a way that includes indigenous perspectives like is there a way is there a is there a next step that people can take i think one of the best um first steps to take is to find whose indigenous lands you're currently living on. And there is this great link that I don't know if you have heard of it, which is native land dot CACanada.

And I can send you the link to find whose indigenous lands you're currently living on and then learning about those indigenous peoples. Because, you know, most of them are still here. Right. You can still visit their reservations. because, you know, most of them are still here, right? You can still visit their reservations. I know in California, there's a lot of recognized federal, you know, tribes are not recognized federally because, you know, it's California, right? Everybody wants to move to California, so they don't want to give their land back. But, you know, learning about those indigenous histories and the lands you're occupying will allow you to learn that place-based history that's often ignored,

right? Or that's often not brought to light, especially when we talk about indigenous peoples. And I think that, you know, when you look at whose lands you're occupying, you can do more research on that tribe and, you know, you can learn a lot from them, build relationships with not just the land, but also the people of those lands, and that will be the local tribes. but also the people of those lands, and that will be the local tribes. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. I just went to it. It's native-land.ca, and it has a map. And yeah, where I am right now is on Tongva land, on Chumash land. I might be pronouncing it incorrectly, but that is really, really cool. And that is something that I've heard people talk about more just to hear just even here in Los Angeles,

talking about conservation as an important dimension. That is so cool. Well, thank you so much for being here. The book is called Fresh Banana Leaves, Healing Indigenous Landscapes Through Indigenous Science. And it's out now, correct? Yes, it's out now. Oh it's out now oh it just came out incredible um well if you want to pick up a copy folks can get it at a factuallypod.com

slash books that's our special bookshop or i assume wherever books are sold do you have a favorite book retailer where people can get it no i think any local bookstore like i love that so amazing uh jessica thank you so much for being here. It was incredible having you. Yeah. And thank you for this conversation. I really enjoyed it and it was an honor to be on your podcast. So thank you. Well, thank you once again to Dr. Jessica Hernandez for coming on the show. Once again, if you want to pick up her book, head to factuallypod.com slash books. That's factuallypod.com slash books. I want to thank the patrons that made this episode possible.

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