Factually! with Adam Conover - Joel McHale is Nicer Than We Deserve, with Joel McHale

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

Actor and comedian Joel McHale isn’t just one of the nicest people working in entertainment; he’s also got a unique, firsthand perspective on the massive shifts that have occurred in the television industry over the past twenty years. From the TV-skewering comedy of The Soup to the metatextual self-awareness of Community, Joel’s career has served to comment on the evolution of the medium of television. Today, he takes a bit more of a direct approach and sits with Adam to talk about the massive shifts in TV comedy and where it might go next.Download Cash App Today: https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/2vjj5nrh #CashAppPod. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. See terms and conditions at https://cash.app/legal/us/en-us/card-agreement. Discounts and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit http://cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures.SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. Hey there, welcome to Faxley. I'm Adam Conover. We're thrilled to have you on the show again. You know, as you're probably aware, my industry, television has changed a lot over the past century. You know, a little over 20 years ago, there was no YouTube, there was no streaming,

and there were no podcasts on streaming, definitely. HBO had made like three good shows ever, and critics were just beginning to declare a golden age of television. Meanwhile, most people were still binging those friends, Friends reruns they had bought on DVD for hundreds of dollars. Remember that? You go over to her friend's house and they'd have shelves full of TV shows in little cardboard cases.

I can just picture the cover of The Simpsons Volume 2 now, can't you? Now, one of my favorite shows back then in the heyday of Basic Cable late at night, I loved getting stoned and watching The Soup. It was basically just a clip show with jokes like America's Funniest Home Videos before it. But instead of watching, you know, dad fall into the pool, this show talked massive and hilarious shit on the rest of television. And specifically, on the reality TV revolution that was sweeping across America. No Kardashian was spared.

Every flavor of love was swished around and spat out for our amusement. You know, it was the kind of show you'd get home from a long day. You'd maybe smoke a little weed, crack a beer, and watch with your friends. It was casual, sharp. And even the crew seemed to be having a good time. tell because you could hear them laughing on the show. But you know, this show would not have worked without its host, the actor and comedian Joel McHale. This dude defined an era of how to make jokes about TV right as TV was changing. You know, I used to watch Joel and be like, this guy is so

natural on TV. He was one of the people who influenced my own desire to be a television joke man, who showed me how it was done. But he did not finish there. After the soup, McHale went from E to NBC, where he started as narcissistic former lawyer, Jeff Winger, on community, one of the best sitcoms of its era, and also a show that really influenced my work. It wasn't until years later that I realized how much community had influenced Adam ruins everything and the work I was doing on college humor while it was coming out. And since then, Michaela has just started in more shows, acted in movies, and even hosted an occasional game show. And by the way, he is also, and I can attest to this, an incredibly nice person.

We bumped into each other in L.A. A couple months back, and I said, you know what? I'd really love to come have you on the show and just hang out. So today, I'm so pleased that my guest is actor and comedian Joel McHale. I don't think there's a better person to talk to about how television and the entertainment industry has changed, especially as we are in another point of flux right now. Right now, Joel is starring in the fourth season of the show Animal Control on Fox. He's also doing a million other projects that we're going to get into.

It's going to be a great time. Before we get into it, I want to remind you, if you want to support the show, head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover, five bucks a month. It gets you every episode of the show ad-free. And if you want to come see me on the road, well, hey, you know, you can tell them I'm a little bit hoarse.

It's because I have been doing stand-up all across the country, blowing out my vocal cords. Right now I'm taking a little bit of a rest. And pretty soon I'll be back out there, ready to shout into a microphone for your amusement. Come up soon, March 20th and 21st. I'll be in Hartford, Connecticut. April 2nd through 4th, I'll be in Sacramento, California.

April 10th and 11th and 12th as well, I'll be in La Jolla, California. April 18th, I'm taping my new special at the Den Theater in Chicago, Illinois. I'd love to have you there. And then later in May, I'll be in Kansas City, Missouri. Head to Adam Codover.comnet for tickets and tour dates. I would love to have you. And now let's get to this week's interview with Joel McHale. Nice to see you.

Joel, thanks so much for being on the show, man. You look great. I love those pants. Those are nice. Yeah. I was doing a little paratrooping earlier. And I was shooting an MZ Hammer video from 30 years ago. Yeah, I like a, I like a cargo pant.

I feel like it gives me a, like there's a little sense of danger and adventure. Do you remember when we met? Do you remember the first time we chatted? It wasn't, it wasn't at the Rufus Wainwright concert. It was at the Rufus Wainwright concert. That was the first time I ever met you? That was the first time we ever met. I remember very distinctly because I went to the Rufus Wainwrights.

Swymard concert, me and my, my, uh, former partner, we bought, we bought tickets. We've always been Rufus Swymar fans coming to LA. It's genius. It's a genius. Incredible show. Beautiful. Yeah. We're like, blissing out. We go to the curb. We're like hanging out late. We like wait a long time to buy some vinyl. We go out wait on the curb.

Is that a code for drugs? Did you buy fentanyl? Yeah, man. Yeah, that's what we call. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get, you're in mid-40s. You get a real vinyl collection, you you know I'm talking about. Okay. And we go out on the car. curb and we're waiting for an Uber and we look to the right and who is at the curb. But the most noticeable man in America, Conan O'Brien.

Yep. A couple times in my life I've been in room with Conan O'Brien and it's like your head automatically turns towards him. Yeah. Everyone is looking at him. Yep. For some, it's like seeing a like a, not even a, like a zoo animal is too condescending. It's, I've never seen anybody like that. You're talking to him.

Yeah. No. That is, I've walked down the streets of New York. work with Conan and it does not matter who it is. They are recognizing him and walking up. Yeah. There will be here, people that are unhoused that will be jumping up. There will be coming out of the electronic store. Then there'll be somebody like in a coat and tails and they, yeah. And he's so, he's way too nice to everybody. He's really nice. He's so, you know what it is is in addition to being ultra famous. He's so affable. It's almost like a big bird kind of thing where it's like

somebody who you grew up with and you're like, he's like got a mascot quality. Right. Not a human zoo, a big bird. So he's like a big puppet. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. No, but that I think that I think you're right that it occupies people's, that space and the people's brain the same way that like a beloved, like Sesame Street character would be. You just go,

oh, yes. You own a huge part of my brain. And it only is good. It's like a good part of my brain. And people, Yeah. It's really, I'm curious how that compares to like other people. Because I feel like that's another level of getting recognized.

I'm sure people recognize you out on the street. But I would, I do get recognized, but like walking down the street with Ken, well, with Conan, and I was like, oh, this is a whole other thing. Same thing with like Ken Jong. Where if I, if you walk down the street with Ken, really? People are like, they're, they're freaking out. See, I would have thought with Conan would be the height, but Ken is not a tall guy. He's a little bit of short.

Ken is not very tall, but boy, people burst out crying when they're sure. And it almost makes it brave to walk around at all at that level. But we saw you guys like, oh, that's cool. Look who's at the show. And then we're waiting for our Uber. I sort of look away. And then out like in my right ear, I hear Adam Conover, you have walked up to me and you've said hello. Yes.

And I was like, did not expect this in a million years. It was very, I was like, you're a very friendly guy is what I got out of it. Well, I'm a fan. Thank you. I literally pay into your Patreon. Wait, you told me this. I am a Patreon subscriber and look for this show on Patreon. Somebody, you got to, like, we're not just doing this for fucking charity guys.

You need to pay for things. Like, I get it. Everything's expensive. But people need to make money. Look at this. It's not Sam's just not fucking around here. It's not some college class he's taken. He's recording a real show and should be paid for goods and services.

This is like television at this point is what we're doing. People are watching this on their TV sets. And so this is the best possible pitch for my Patreon I could have ever possibly had. Subscribe to the Patreon, guys. It's worth it. Patreon.com slash Adam Conno. No ads. It's great.

Except for this in, in, how do you keep your plants so healthy without any sunlight, Adam? Well, take it away. Miracle Grow indoor is. one of the most environmentally conscious and effective nutrients for your plants. Thank you. That's what we got to do is we have to do plugs now. We got to read our own ads.

Which is, I like those because it takes me back to shows from the 50s. Right. Which I always liked in show ads. I thought were always much more engaging and funny. And then when Larry Sanders was on, he did that garden weasel thing. Yeah. And I was like, it is so funny. And why don't they do all ads like this?

That was, it's fun. Whenever I think of in-show ads, I always think of that episode. That's the pilot of the Larry Sanders show, my favorite show of all time. And it's Larry is, as a fictional talk show host, being made to do an in-show ad for a fictional product called The Garden Weasel, and he hates doing it. And so he has his psychic Hank doing it, which is also so funny because the more I watch Larry Sanders, the more I'm like, this happens to me in Hollywood, the show so accurate it is. That's what Jimmy Kimmel has Guillermo do.

Yeah. Like, Guillermo does the in-show ads so that Jimmy doesn't have to. Yeah. Remember him to him like, I'm going to grab my seven weasel. Like he was grabbing a golf club. The whole episode is about them hating it. You like it. Yeah.

Well, them hating it makes me like it. Ah. Like that was such a good. I was like, oh, it's so, well, it's so funny because them not taking the coffee seriously. Yeah. And then it makes the product so much more effective. Right. We sold.

And then, um, this is what we try to tell the advertisers. We're like, if you let us do a little bit of fuck you in the ad read. Yeah. If you make it your own. The public likes it more. Yes. They feel like it's more honest because they're like, I'm hearing,

I'm hearing a real ad read from a real person who I know. Of course, no one likes to read an ad. It's a job. You know, unless you're Billy Mays or something like that. But, you know, God rest his soul. God rest his soul. And it was, we lost him too soon. And it should have been the shamwow guy who died.

But it was Bill. What's going on with the Shamwell guy? Nothing good. Sam, can you look up Shamwell guy? Look at his Wikipedia. In fact, I would like to also say that Adam and I will be hosting a show called Where's the Shamwell guy? Where's the Shamwell guy?

Sponsored by? Shamwow, probably. California car covers, ironically. It's a real fucking shamwell. Helpful Honda days. Yeah, fine. Is he alive? Yeah, he's running for the Republican nomination, Texas 31st Congressional District.

Sham wow guy's running for Republican nomination Texas 31st district. Yes. Wow. Okay. I always knew it. The 31st? Where is the 31st? Yeah.

Didn't he get beat up by a... Something happened, right? Worker while they were both on methamphetamine? Yes. That did... It's been a couple years since I've read this Wikipedia, but it's like every five years or so I crack it open to, you know, entertain myself. What I know the sham wow guy? And then I just like...

You'll be saying wow every time. And then there... what's great about that Wikipedia is that there's people that are like, I want to know what the Shamwow guy's doing and I'm going to find out and I'm going to update it. It's actually even more than that because, you know, I've edited Wikipedia in my spare time in the past. The mentality is more you're like, I'm one of the editors of the Shamwow guy page. And then anytime he's in the news, you're like, it is my duty to record his activities because I am the observant. I'm the watcher, like, from Marvel Comics.

It's like, I observe and I record. Yeah, you're, you're, it's journalism. Yeah. You're, you're getting down to what's happening and you're reporting the facts. It's real. You got to cite it. Where's the 31st district? All right.

Yeah, like hill country kind of. West Texas. It's north of Austin, actually. Oh, yeah, it's like the suburbs north of Austin. Oh, got it. It's fancy. He's, he's running. on an anti-woke platform after Charlie Kirk's assassination.

He's running on an anti- Okay. Of course he is. He's running on Charlie Kirk died a year ago. Vote for me, the Shamwow guy. Sham-wow guy will avenge. I wonder if he's trying to incorporate Sham-wow into the posters or the... Am I?

I don't... That, yeah, anyway. Am I insane? Yeah, what's his name? It's on the tip of my time. Vince Offer. Vince Offer. And did he do a series of...

sketch comedy movies. He directed and appeared in the underground comedy movie in 96. Yes. Let's see. That was during the show. His most recent movie. This guy has a lot of trouble. Adrian Brody was shockingly in a really bad sketch comedy movie like 12 years ago.

I'm trying to remember if it was the Vince Offer one. This is, people like to go down a rabbit hole in podcast. This is maybe a little too far. movie 47. That's, I think that's what it was. Yeah, that everybody was. Everybody was where Hugh Jackman had the testicles hanging off his chin. Right, yes.

It was called inappropriate comedy. I think he was like Rob Schneider. Adrian Brody, yeah. Directed by Vince Offer. Thank you. We did it. Yeah, okay. We did it.

I'm so glad I drudged that up from the depths of memory. Adrian Brody was in Shamwow Guy movie. And Rob Schneider was, and Adrian, wow. Good. What a cast. Great, great company. And L, here's a, oh, I think. You believe you won for the Brutelist and not for that.

Wow. Rob Schneider's daughter. What about her? Do you know who she is? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. El King. X's and O's?

I didn't, no, I didn't. Huge hit. I don't know. I don't follow. I'm more of a classic country guy. Well, but you could say she's a crossover. Yeah. But it was a gigantic number one hit.

And yeah. And they were like, that's Rob Schneider's daughter. You know. It's these little connections that we're making. Welcome to Little Connection. Sponsored by Playmobile. Do you do a podcast? Do I not know that?

No. I did one with Ken, Zhang, during the pandemic, about sort of like every day or every couple days we would do like an update on where the vaccine was and what was happening

and what was the latest research because he's a doctor. Oh, yeah. I mean, a terrible doctor, Ken John, you heard me. And so we talk a lot about them and then have like, Shaq on. And then we talked to Shaq.

And it was great. It was, it was great because it kept, because Ken and I are such maniacs for work and keeping the hamster spinning in the, in his little circle, his little wheel. And so it was great because both of our wives were very happy that we were not in the house. that you had something to do. So we would go into our garages, do our thing for four hours and then, and then,

yep, she'd be like, oh, that was a nice break. Yep. Yep. Yep. We got a break from you. I was very lucky that I was, I was working on a Netflix show during the pandemic. So it was like something. I was like, okay, all this shit's happening.

I have to focus on the work at the same time. And right as things were, like shutting down is when it was going. Yeah, yeah. Our room was open a week. The Wednesday, the second week of our. room, it was the day that the NBA canceled the season, which to me was the day the shutdown began. That was, people were like, what? Like, that was, that was, yeah, I remember, yeah.

That was the moment where it felt like, oh, there is a meteor coming. There is an asteroid coming. That's when people went, that's when Tiger King, the rise of Tiger King, the rise of Squid Game, and the rise of yellow. We memory hold it so thoroughly. Sometimes I'm like, I do just want to remember that that happened. It kind of ruined. I was happy to be working, but it did kind of ruin my house for me,

you know, because I spent so much time working there. It, like, collapsed the boundary. And I know people love remote work, but, like, it's good to leave your house. It does help to separate your life out to be where you're home, your home. It's good to walk out and not be in fear of seeing a person 20 feet away.

That's true. That's more important. These invisible walls. that were all put up. Yep. Unless you lived in Georgia, where I was working. You were working in Georgia at the time?

Well, yeah, I remember we were working and we were trying to come back and there was like 70 positive cases at one day. And they were like, well, all right. Jesus. It's all different. Did you shoot like during COVID with COVID protocols at all?

Yeah. We shot Stargirl in Georgia, which was saved me from not losing my mind. It was great. Yeah. I was very thankful for that job and for that show.

I know that Sam loved it. I was... I did no response from Sam. What are you talking about me, Sam? We all love Stargirl. What do you talk? Brick Basinger? I was saying about when I was doing your show.

It was Jeff Johns. It was like, I remember being on those sets and being like, very glad to be working. I feel it feels so precarious. I feel like anybody could get sick at any moment. And it's like you're doing all these things to keep yourself safe and like are, will we be able to? And the protocols, man, the amount, the amount of money made on protocols. Where's all the folks that were, what happened to the all? Remember all the. Oh, yeah. Different stations and I interviewed a guy on the podcast years like that year. He was like the second person we interviewed about COVID. And he,

had gotten a lot of, he had written a lot of press because he had previously been a guy who stopped like diseases from traveling in cattle farms. Like he figured out how to stop like animal diseases in factory farms. And so then when COVID spread, he was like, well, I know how to do this because this is what I do. And had him on the show and he was, gave a great explanation. And then after the camera stopped rolling, he was like, yeah, so I'm going to start. working at Hollywood. And then we ended up hiring him on the G word on the Netflix show. Wow. To be the guy to design our COVID protocols, which he did for us and a lot of other shows as well.

And that was like the way that I felt, I told Netflix, I was like, I will feel safe if you hire this specific guy I interviewed who I know has the expertise. Now, you're not saying, he was like, I want to be a dancer. It wasn't that. He's a, he was just like, I would like to move to Hollywood. This is how we fulfilled his Hollywood dream. Imagine how many people working in the cattle industry. Okay. Yeah. Like, if I have my chance.

But he still had to artificially inseminate the same way. Shoulder deep in a cow. Just right up. It's still shocking that I want to know the first farmer that figured out how to inseminate a cow. Just like when you see the guys with the full arm in there. Yeah. And I'm like, look at that. Look at that.

Somebody did that first. Do you feel like working in this business, you know, a lot of people talk about like 2019 being the last peak year that things were you know everything was like going up it was like broadcast cable then streaming and like that was sort of the the moment of the peak and COVID was like this big wrench in it did that feel like an inflection point that like brought it to the sort of weird scrambled place it is today or would have what would have that anyway I didn't not for me yeah because I think when in 2015 in 2015 when community had, thank you.

I love community. I love community. Yeah. Oh, Sam's acknowledging that he's seen community. Yeah. I want you to check in with me every show that you've been on here. You're going to see a lot. When that stopped and the soup was canceled,

after 12 years. Silence. Literally half of my intro is about the soup. Okay. Tumble wheat rockets. Rockets past us. No, so that, I was like, oh, I had been working, like I got on the soup train starting in 2005, and I was like, things are going. Then I got community and things were going well. And like, and then it all stopped at once. Yeah. I was like, oh, what am I going to do? And then like the standup shows, the crowds got smaller. And I'm like, oh, this, this is, I see. It just doesn't keep going up.

It's, yep. This is, this is your first, like, riding up, you're on a surfboard and you crash. Was that the first time in your whole career that, that happened? I had felt like you went down. Where I had worked so hard just to get jobs from 2000 to 2004 or five-ish. Yeah. And I was just like, if I can just get a job, if I can just get the, and then finally it worked. Yeah.

And then it was like this good run. And I'm like, oh, this is how it works. Yeah. You get on this, you finally get on this tight rope and you can be on it for a long time. And then you're like, oh, it's over. Yeah. And so that, that's when I was like, oh, this is not the same as it was. That, so I didn't, then I did a sitcom in 2016 on CBS that did when one season was over.

And so I was getting shots. And these are, believe me, guys, it's gone well. believe me. I'm not saying there's people. What was the sick I'm to see it? What was the sitcom? The Great Indoors. The great, did you see this, Sam? No, I didn't. Stephen Frye and me and Chris Mince Plas. Wow.

Susana Fielding. That's a great. It was a great cast. And Sean Brown, Deborah Becker Jr. and Christine Coe. See what I did? So anyway, it was, so that's when I experienced that. When COVID hit, that's when I was, that was a different feeling. I was just like, oh, nothing's ever going to happen again.

Uh-huh. So it was like, we're all. So that didn't have the same sort of impact. I mean, it had a much more anxious impact as I had two kids that were in grade school. And that was no fun because it was a whole new world every day with. Zoom P.E. Where I would just like, get out. You can't do in Zoom P.E.

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member FDIC, discounts, and promotions provided by Cash app, a Block Incorporated brand. Visit Cash.app slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. Folks, this episode was brought to you by Alma. You know, a year from today, who do you want to be? What version of yourself would you like to meet? Do you want to feel less anxious or feel more like yourself?

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You know how to spell factually, but that's how you spell it. Hello-A-L-M-A-com slash factually. I forget if I've ever told this story on the show, you know, around that time, I had, you know, I had done the cable show. We were starting to work on the Netflix show, but I got an offer to host a kids game show on Nickelodeon. I grew up watching kids game shows in Nickelode. I'm like, that's great. I think they had somebody else who dropped out because they were like, we want you and we need you to fly to England in three weeks. So I'm like, whoever bailed from this gig.

Yeah. Thank you very much. I flew. It was shot in England because it was a British show called the Crystal Mids. maze at a standing set in in bristol uk so they flew me in these and these american families out there and it was so much fun i was the maze master and i had an elaborate outfit i kind of looked like when i saw allan cummings and the traders i'm like that he's that's that's what i was doing i was doing elaborate like you know phantom of the opera willie wonka-esque that's cool

outfits it was really fun running around obstacle courses welcome to the crystal maze today you were series of challenges. You were in 25,000, like super fun. Had a blast doing it. It seemed to do pretty good on Nickelodeon. I run into, I'm back in L.A. I run into a guy at the improv. I'm doing stand-up.

He's like, hey, just so you know, I was working on the crystal maze. I'm like, I work in the music department. And did you know that this is one of those shows where they ordered 10, but the next contract is for 100? Like, you know how sometimes it'll be structured that way? It's like, if they pick up anything after the first 10, they have to pick up 100 at once. He was like, and it seems like he's doing pretty good.

They're like doing casting announcements for the second season. I was like, oh, fuck. I have like, I'm going to be a game show host like this, which is the best, I mean, you're a game show host. Yes. One of the best gigs of all television. Like Drew Carey, happiest man in the world. It's a great gig.

Work a couple weeks a year. You're the king of the castle, right? Shoot five shows a day. Yeah. Make a lot of money, do whatever else you want with your time. I was like, this is great. And all that happened. The show aired and I had that conversation in fact.

February of 2020. And one of my first thoughts when COVID, when the shutdown happened, as I was like, that's over because no one had to tell me it was over. Because by the time we come out of this and they're ready to fly American families to the UK again, they will be on their third round of executives at Nickelodeon who will have been fired. You're right. The revolving door, they're going to be thinking about something else. They have an attention span of a flea.

And that's exactly what happened. that, yeah, because that was untenable. Yeah. There's just no way they could, because the cost of the show would have gone up, would have quintupled. Yeah, and the whole point of shooting in the UK is it's cheap. Like, they don't have.

Getting everybody, but, and was there ever a conversation a couple of years later where they were like, hey. Yeah. You know, I think my reps probably reached out, but it was like, you know, they're on to the next thing, you know. And the saddest part is a couple years later, then they canceled the UK version because I think they needed two versions of the show running to justify the cost of the set. So Richard Iowathe was the host in the UK, which was, you can imagine how good that was. And they did that for like three, four years.

Richard Iowadi, if anybody go, go look that guy up because he is one of the, he's incredible. He's very famous in England. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, but almost as famous as I am in America. Oh. Well, I would give him a little more credit. He has a lot more credit. A lot more credit.

I did a sitcom pilot with him. Oh, really? Yeah, I did the American version of the IT crowd, which he was in. Yeah. And yeah, so we got picked up and then canceled before we ever made it on air. Yeah. But like the experience of working with him, I was like, this is. Some of the best line reads in the history of sitcoms were his on that show.

He's like, he's holding something that's on fire and he's like, I think I'll put that with the other fire. And he's like sorting the fire in the room. I, amazing. His dad was, I've now known him in 2005. And his dad was, this is us having a real conversation. Like him and I were talking because I knew his dad was sick. And I was like, hey, how's your dad? And he's like, um, not great.

He's, uh, dead. Well, first of all, that's an incredible impression. Thank you. I knew. Don't write. Kind of said it like an Australian. I mean, do you feel like there's any kind of broken promise or something of the entertainment industry? Because like I said, you were working so hard.

Yeah. And so was I. I was very lucky to have watched Basic Cable growing up and then be on Basic Cable. Yeah. But now, like after COVID, I was like, oh, the kind of thing that I built a career doing, like, the entertainment companies simply do not make like a show like my, my old show or like the soup or if I wanted to do like a like a political talk show or anything. There's like, no, we just don't make that. Yeah. Like it's it's here on the podcast.

That's where it happens. Yeah. And it's been this way in which, you know, this town used to have used to be like, hey, if you. If you put the work in, you can work in all these different jobs. As you have, you've been an actor, you've been a game show host, et cetera. Thank you. Thank you. Yes.

What the fuck? Actor, talk show, yeah. But, like, it's shrunk down to, like, a shell of what it was. I think it evolved and, like, with obviously with a rise of streaming and the rise of podcasts and the rise of phones and the accessibility like that, I think it's all changed. And so, you know, like, so I just, I think there's, there's more content, obviously, than ever. Yeah. There's more out there than you can ever consume. And at the same time, it seems like there's not as much.

It's very weird. Yeah. But, like, you look at, like, the, how huge and influential podcasts have been in the last eight years. Yeah. And if you had said to me, like, like, like, like, When Chris Hardwick started nerdist, I remember him having to explain it to me. And I'm like, you're what? And he's like, no, we just record you.

And I'm like, and it, you do where is it? It's a radio show? Like I couldn't. That was the first time. I think it was 2004, 2005. And I'm like, okay. And then it just, it, it, like the kids, the kids today, the take for granted that you could, like, just getting, having an iPod was a revelation over. for a walkman.

Like, it couldn't believe it. And then downloading music onto it. And then you had to, I, so then you sound, then we sounded like every old man who talked about cable television, we were like, under channels, nothing to watch. And I feel like that's what I was like, well, what are you going to do with a thousand songs? And you couldn't. So the rate at which technology. jumped and I always kind of have to go back to that cable thing when cable television came in

and you had people like Elvira doing a show who no one even realized how gigantic it was but it was like it's somewhere out there yeah in like ESPN is like we have a satellite truck we can broadcast sports 10 hours a day day day and people like why would we want that why would we want that. And they had John Forsythe doing the original commercial, if you've ever seen it. I've never seen it. It's incredible. And Chris Berman, of course, it was a part of it then as well. So I kind of go like, when did I, because now with AI being everyone afraid, and I was like, is this just the same fear? It's just this a different rendition of the fear that like when VHS tapes came in, people are like, well, that's the end of movies. We're never going to be in a movie theater again.

You can just go to a store and get any movie you want, watch it anytime you want, and stop it? What is happening? That is the old, I was like, is that what I have become? Or is that, and it was like, I'm trying to avoid that. There's that fear. And I'm definitely that guy too. I'm like, you know, turn 40 a couple years ago.

You start going, you stop saying to new inventions, oh, great. And you start saying to new inventions, oh, no, right, around your 40. He's like, wait, hold on a second. I was, I like the iPod and the iPhone, but the eye brain, I don't know about this or whatever the new thing is. AI. AI especially right now is, yeah. But also nobody likes AI.

Nobody's excited about it. Like, like I was just in San Francisco, which is where they built. Tom Cruise fight was pretty good. That wasn't even fucking AI. Yeah, I was like, why is everyone so scared? It didn't. It was fine. It was fine.

and it was also done using a lot of traditional VFX work and like it was not a one sentence prompt. It was like done more complicatedly. But I was in San Francisco and which is like the home of AI. And I'm like, do you guys like AI? And the whole crowd goes, boo! Of course it's my crowd. But, you know, still like it's so hard to find people

who actually like it. It is this big, unknown, scary ball right now. And I'm not, and. I was like, well, it's just, I have to treat it like, this is just like anything. It's like, it's in my brain. It's like, it's like steam power coming in when people are like, well, what about the sales? Well, we're now, we're burning coal and we're using this. We're going to take this thing and put a lot of, there's going to be a lot of steam and then it's going to push the ship or anywhere we want any time.

I don't know. And it's, I, that's how I try to look at it like, all right. because it doesn't seem like the kids are that nervous about it, the way that older people are. That's why I keep going back to the VHS thing. And I could be completely wrong. I mean, there's so much animosity towards it, you know. And what's interesting about it is when people,

remember when like CGI was invented and it was like, oh, we can have computer imagery in movies. Right. And it was like, whoa, this movie has like CGI, cool. Yeah. When people talk about AI, it means, They're like, oh, it looks like AI. Oh, that was done with AI.

They mean it looks bad. Right. They mean they don't like it. It looks cheap. And I think that's something that like the industry, that industry is not taking seriously that like in just casual speech, that's how people need it. Yeah. They go like, ah, it's AI. Like think about how like a rapper might use the word AI.

Would they use it to mean like, like, like if they're like, you're AI, are they giving you a compliment or are they saying you're like phony? You know what I mean? Yeah, right now. Yeah, I agree. I don't know. I did whenever people are like, well, it's going to write all the scripts. And then I look at the scripts that it writes and I would be like, well, still hasn't written a great joke yet. Yeah.

It still kind of looks like somebody from Sweden tried to write a comedy script who in a language they don't know. Yeah. Sorry. Swedes. I'm just got just shots fired. But it still seems like it's not a language

that it can speak yet. So I'm like, all right, I think we'll be okay. I mean, AI scripts are like, jokes in AI scripts are like,

well, that just happens, which is, there's a lot of Hollywood scripts that are like that too, but we know they're bad. And I also,

like, this guy said the thing. Back in the 90s, he was just like, look, he was giving a lecture about art. He was like 90%

of all art. is just not great and 10% is great. Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm always like, yeah, that's right. That's right now. Yeah. And all the time where all these, yeah, a million shows come out, a million movies come out,

and only a few of them. And every once in a freaking real blue moon is a hit. Yeah. A hit is near impossible to make. So I'm like, yeah, if it can, if it can just make everything a hit, then I'll be completely wrong. Then great. It all worked.

I doubt it. Anything to replace Sam is what I say. Please help me. There's the most Sam's ever been involved in the show. Stop talking about me like this. I think you might have been inducted into the show. I appreciate it. Well, look, in terms of stuff getting, not trying to be an old man about it, right?

But I do feel like the business structure has changed so much in this industry where Hollywood as an industry as like a pretty locally centralized. Yes. Community of creative people and capitalists working together to make, you know, expensive high art or in low art, but like, you know, shit that you're going to put some money behind. It's not publishing where you just give some dude five grand and see if you can write a novel and see if anybody sell it. It's like, no, we're going to put money into this. We're going to hire hot people. We're going to like make some explosions or whatever.

That seems to be crumbling in that. I mean, but hasn't, like, hasn't it, I feel like that stopped in the 80s. Ah, yeah. I think when we've been coasting ever since. I think when United Artists went down. Uh-huh. I mean, we're going way back before Sam's grave, Karen Smith. I, because you look at something like F-1.

Yeah. And, or one battle after another. Like, you look at the, I was like, like F1 looks like it cost $2 billion. Yeah. It might have cost a billion dollars. So those, so I agree with it. The business has changed,

but they're still going for it with big swings at time. They used to do 20 movies like that a year. And now it's like you watch one battle after another and you're like, oh, finally a movie. You know? Like at least they got one this year. And sinners, those are like the two sort of big movies.

A lot of people saw them that put a lot of money. their art in addition to being entertainment. I mean, Avatar was, sure. Yeah, I mean, those are, yeah, or, I mean, there's F1 again. So I think it became like album-oriented

rock in the 70s where it's like yeah, the business when, oh, we're going to make so much more when the Beatles and Rolling Stones and those guys all came in and then all of a sudden they were like, oh, this is how rock and roll is going to be. We can do this with the Eagles and Elton John and

and we'll and then we will ride this disco thing and we will take advantage of it and we are going to sell a zillion records like that and then you're like punk comes in and goes oh yeah we don't we're where the sex pistols are going to have and you know like once these hits come along and you're like oh right they undermined the whole thing sam doesn't get any of these references you don't know i do what you're talking about you're at least they were still selling they were still selling pieces of final, you know, like the structure of the business was the same. Let me put it to this. I'm not trying to get you to agree with my premise or, or argue with me about. How dare you? What I'm curious about is you talked about that period where, you know, five, 10 years, you're trying to get put the work together. You're trying to like build a career. You know, you're a, you're a hot young funny man in, you know, in Los Angeles and you're trying to make it like so many others are. And then you you do, right? And then, okay, here comes the work. and like you built the career, is that something that you think is possible or would, you know,

in the Hollywood of today or would you have to do it completely differently? Because that's what I'm not sure about. I think like you look at someone like Mr. Beast who's could not be bigger, right? Sure. It's he's one of the biggest artists on the planet. Yeah. So I could because he took advantage of the technology to, like, oh, I'm going to figure this out more like Matt Rife who like, he's like, He's like the tick. Everyone's like, oh, he's a TikTok comic. And I'm like, well, yeah, because everyone's on TikTok. And he figured out how to put jokes on it.

And it worked. And so I think it's just different. I think if you had said to me back in 2004 as I was, as the soup was just starting. And it was this as rinky dink as it could be. Yeah. It was this. your camera right here in microphone. You have two more microphones than we have.

Right. And I was like, oh, well, I guess Greg Kinnear did this, and I'm going to try and do it. It seems so low, like just the lowest of the budget. It was the lowest of the budget. It was so cheap to put on the air and was put on at 10 o'clock on a Friday, which, nah, it doesn't make any sense the same at all, but it was put in a desert. And so I think 10 years before, I think people would have been like,

well, that's not how a traditional talk show goes. Cable was totally that sort of pirate ship, like super cheap. Like, let's throw it up and see what happens kind of thing. And there was no, the Writers Guild was not involved with Cable at that point. Yeah. And there was no writers on the soup.

There was no writers on any show. They were all producers. Uh-huh. And so that, obviously that all changed. But so I think the traditional way, is probably is probably gone. I mean, no one's, so it's, but that doesn't mean that people aren't, I mean, people are consuming media more than we ever could,

on a level, which is hard to even wrap your brain around. I can't wrap my brain around it. Like, when we get on airplanes now, we, like, where's the fucking Wi-Fi? That's- Where's the 30 movies? Yeah. Why don't I? Why do I? What am I going to do with my time? And I would rather have the bathroom go out on this thing than not have Wi-Fi. And so the things now that are just so taken for granted that we are in this middle of this incredible information age that my kids like they, you know, they don't even think about like, yeah, oh, we're going to watch this whatever it is, like some movie on their iPad. And they just, they just, I mean, this is now 10 years up. But like, they, they just, I mean, this is now 10 years up. just mirror it on the television or they just have and it's all also it yes the technology has

changed and the business has changed and but it doesn't change the fact that the big companies are making so much money yeah and uh so that's when that's when i get like when people like well there's no work in l.a i'm like oh you're right and there should be uh these huge companies are printing money still and they're all la based yeah and So it's not like, it's not like, well, everything went to New Zealand. I mean, a lot of stuff is shot there, but it's not like, it's not like the profits are down. Yeah. Yeah, they're making a ton of money.

It's just the people in the town who, like, used to make the stuff are like, we haven't, we haven't worked, you know? And what's crazy is. And they're the most skilled at it. Yeah. But, yeah. But then you look at what Georgia did, 20 years ago, now 25 years ago. And they're like, oh, you can shoot here and we're not going to charge tax. Yeah.

And that model worked. Same thing in Vancouver in Canada. And obviously the exchange rate really helps. You know, car shopping shouldn't be a game of 20 questions. Is this the right price? Am I making the right choice? But with Car gurus, you don't have to question yourself. Car gurus has the most inventory, transparent deal ratings, and real-time price drop alerts.

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And so, all right, these other places can do attacks right off. They have to do that because they're not L.A., but it worked so well, you know, and, but also the business became less, the biggest streamer is YouTube. You can make YouTube anywhere. It became less geographically, you know, necessary to be here. Um, but because how many jobs like most of my jobs are all, you know, shot somewhere else. Yeah, where they shoot the game show? Uh, we shoot, uh, the 1% club in Georgia. Yeah. And, uh, at Trillith, which is beautiful, great, really great crew. We shoot prime scene kitchen in Toronto and, uh, also just tremendous people. And then we shoot, uh, animal control in Vancouver.

and we shoot House of Villains in Van Nuys. So, like, shooting that, and I was like, oh, that's, yeah, get to see my family and all that. That's great. These are also, yeah, high class. Like, these are good problems to have. Yeah. But, yeah, it's crazy. Well, you know, we shot Adam Ruins everything around L.A., you know, in the 30-mile zone.

And that was 10 years ago? 10 years ago, yeah, about when we started it. Yep. first season, 2015, so a little over 10 years ago. And, you know, every day, different location, like, you know, scrappy little crew. One of the only reasons we were able to was because we were like, the show was so cheap to cheaply made that we were like at some budget level that meant they didn't feel they had to outsource it. But I was talking to my like, getting lunch with my old EPs and I was like, they never would have let us shoot that here today. No, no.

It would have been impossible. And it was such a, we had like every UCB comedian on to do like one. Speaking line, you know, it was like that kind of show like, oh, let's all get together and make a show everybody. You know, using all the, all the talent at our disposal. It's something you can only make right here. Unless you flew that UCB person out or that one line. Can't do that. That is part of what makes me like the pit so much is the pit is like, uh, yeah, the, the level of talent in every single department on that show.

Costumes, prosthetics, like camera work. Set design. Yep. And they're doing like 16 episodes in like a season or some large number of episodes. It's like you can only do that here. You can't fly all those people somewhere else. Yeah. And it shows you that it works still.

Yeah. The system still works. Yeah. And if California can get, you know, those with $750 million, just keep doing that. Yeah. Putting money in. Yeah. And it'll hopefully real stuff.

I mean, obviously there's no lack of studios around here. Yeah. No lack of space. But do you think that like, something I think about a lot is that even though the companies are still printing money, something that we don't talk about enough is that they've abandoned so much of what television used to be. Like, they used to all do food shows and lifestyle shows and talk shows and morning shows and, you know, news shows, right? And like, they're literally cutting back on news now. And people are still watching all those things. Just watching it on YouTube.

They're watching it here, right? and we're doing it right now with like, you know, no budget. It's just Sam. And he hasn't been paid in weeks. Good. Because not enough people are supporting on Patreon. Well, he has been so rude off camera that I'm glad about that. I'll just keep my mouth shut.

So like, but I think it, yeah, I think it all changed. It all changed. It all migrated to, so news, obviously, so many people are getting their news now just from they pull up their phone and then they go to their whichever news app they're getting their news from and yeah. But part of the result is we have less journalists. Ground news so much.

Ground news. It's aggregates, aggregates. Compiles all the stories and lets you know who. You know, we'd love them to re-up and buy some more ads. We have been in the past. And you know what? We'd love to, we'd love more of your business here. ground news.

So what happened? What, uh, where did they came out of nowhere? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean,

they're a news aggregator, you know, it's a, and, and they, uh, I subscribe. Yeah.

It's a great website and they, they, they just, I guess they decided on a marketing, uh, campaign where like, well, they would just flood the zone of like political,

online media with ads. And it worked. They created incredible. Yeah. And they, uh, uh, there were, there were reads.

They were direct reads always every time. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so I think. So that's how you got your start, right? That's my point is like in that kind of content, right? And being paid by the companies to make it. I do think there's something lost where, you know, you're working on the soup.

Next year, you're working on sitcoms. Right now, that job would be, you wouldn't move to L.A. to do that job, right? You'd be like, well, I live here in Nashville. But I'll just start making fun of the reality shows in my camera and my house. And you have no connection to a bigger company or a product commute. There's nobody trying to make you famous. There's no agent saying, oh, what's your next job? It's like the system's broken.

And I'm not trying to be an old guy about it. But like I think we just, it's not remarked upon enough that like everything except high end narrative scripted is like has gone to YouTube. And like the Paramounts and Warner Brothers have just like stopped making it. Yeah. It's change. I won. Yes. I wonder in two.

If I was the age I was now trying to do a show like soup. Yes. I would, my guess is it would be, as you said, like, oh, you can just do with the camera. Yeah. And, uh, and that's that. Yeah, it seems insane. Uh, but it's what, uh, I got, I got a kid in high school and just had a high school and they're in these film classes and they'll show me things they do.

I'm like, that's pretty good. It looks good. It's well shot. The fucking sound is great. Yeah. It's well, like, there's not a, I was like, whoever mixed the sound was good. And it's like, it looks good. And I, like, I mean, it's crazy.

Yeah. And yeah. So what does, what, so what, so what's our conclusion? I don't know. I just want to talk to you about this because I feel like, I've gone through this transition of like, hey, look, I'm doing, it was great. I'm making a, make it a living and having a good time. And, you know, I get to tour and I get to do everything else, you know. Yeah.

But I think part of it is because I, I, I think, I was such a beneficiary of the old system. Yes. I watched cable. I got to pitch a show to cable. They bought the show. I was not famous. I was just,

I was, you know, a writer at a website who had made four episodes of Adam Ruins Everything as web series. And they, which had gotten a bunch of views. And we pitched it.

And they were like, we like, we like the pitch. Some executives were like, we think that would be a good idea. We think our audience would watch it. And they put money behind it. And then they put money behind and making me famous.

They were like, okay, this is the host of the show. let's put his face on billboards, you know? And so I went, like there was one, the year the show came out, they bought every surface in Grand Central subway station in New York and put my face on it. I was like, I have friends who are going to like want, like it was kind of embarrassing almost. But like that was, they did that.

And 10 years later, people come to my standup shows and they're like, I used to watch you in middle school. I'm like, yeah, because the company made you do that, right? And so I was such a beneficiary of that. And I feel like you were in many ways. started out as a web series. Yes. I mean, you literally started out as a, yeah.

And then, yeah. But you also had a hit. Yes. So you had, think about all the shows that have been in Grand Central. They're all like, oh, Drew. This, I'm supposed to watch this and then it's just, it's gone. Yep. And then it's, I don't know.

I'm trying to think of an example. It's so sad because I can't even think of one. But, but you think about, like, you backed, ironically. you backed into it in a very modern way. That's true. And then it's, yeah. It also so hard to make a hit. You got a bona fide hit.

And that's, that is the most difficult, I think. So that no matter what things are, which technology is going where, because there is a zillion shows on Netflix and Paramount Plus and all the, and Hulu that have died. Yeah. And then once in a while, you get a. Stranger Things or Squid Game or like a mask singer and it, it, you know, pays for everything. Yeah. But they, uh, I think that maybe it felt like before they were more invested in making the

shows hits, right? Like True TV had like six shows on the air. And they're like, this is one of them. So we better make it work. You know, we're going to, we're going to like every, we got a hundred people working with the network all trying to put this together, right? And when you make a show for Netflix now, unless you're one of the top ones, It's probably the Defer Brothers feel this way.

You know, oh, we got all the backup, right? Yeah. But like, now it's a lot more, well, make the show and we'll throw it on the algorithm, see what happens, you know? And then YouTube, of course, is that to the nth degree. Yeah, would you say, like, because you remember the days of when pilot season would hit and there'd be 25 pilots? I got here, like, right after that or towards the tail end.

But I do, I'm aware of it. I think the year that community was on, there was like 25 pilots for NBC. And it was not just a, so I guess I'm counter arguing, I guess I, but like, it's obviously the networks had so much money. And they were like, we can choose from whatever we want. We can make all of these things. And I remember it being like, oh, you got a pilot. Wow, way to go.

And you're, you made the pilot. Great. Oh, and so now you've got to wait to see if it gets picked up. And then so many times it didn't. And now it's, that's all gone. Yeah, true. you make the thing and you just put it up. Yeah.

Like for Animal Control on Fox. You're going to watch Star Control on Fox. Next day on Hulu. Now on Netflix. There was only one comedy they made that year and that was that. Yeah. And I was like, well, that does save money.

That saves a ton of money from this huge thing, this huge monster of how many pilots get made and stuff. Like that was just saying, like the IT crowd, we made the pilot. we were casting the season and they're like, oh, yeah, it's gone. Yeah. We decided to go with a different one.

New president. Like, I got like a lion coming in and killing all the offspring of the line before him. But do you feel at all that like, you know, as I was I feel like we're not making new movie stars, you know, like when, like the movie stars of the 90s are still so much more famous than Jacob Allorty. Like Jacob Alorty is famous. But like, Tom Cruise is different. right Conan O'Brien is different.

You know, Conan O'Brien walks down the street and it's like magnetic. Yeah. And, you know, Adam Friedland is great. I love the guy, but it's not, he's not, you know what I mean? It's like not the same universality. And so you being in this day and age, right, having gone through the old system. I mean, if you're Taylor Swift, I mean, I guess she was part of the old system as well.

I would try, like, yeah, I also think it's hard. to yes those guys like the tom cruises the brad pitts the like denzil washington's the people that have like from the old system and have been able to get to the this so they are in a mega famous rare uh rare air it's like we're not making those anymore well we like but the kids they're they do see those people as like oh yeah yeah we'll we'll go so they they're they're just so rare. Yes. And they're, they crossed over somehow.

It's just like back to the future is one of my kids' favorite movies. And that came out 35 years ago. Yep. And I was like, why this and not, I don't know, 16 candles, same writer. And they're like, huh? And, you know, it's, it is different. So I think they're making movie stars. We just, we might just not know it yet.

I think the kids know who these stars are. And I mean, Mr. B is probably one of the most famous people on the planet. I mean, he's not in movies, but he's probably, but he's like,

he's like an entrepreneur, you know, he's like a billionaire type. He's like a, a business guy almost, more than he is even a performer. And that's sort of what you have to be. Taylor Swift.

Yeah, true. Like, put it together, man. I don't know, like, I don't know, someone like Chris Stapleton seems like, But that guy can fill a, he can fill so five, five nights in a row if he wants.

Or like Shane Gillis just sold out the Eagles stadium. So I think, yeah, I think it's just an evolving, I think. But I feel like they did the same thing with movie stars where they were like, this is our guy. And then they get two or three shots. And then they're like, oh, that's it. Oh, 100%. And they're like, what the fuck?

And they tried it with, you know, They try with everybody who's in some, you know, I don't know, Hunger Games or Twilight or whatever. Yeah. And they're like, oh, we're going to try with all these guys. Yeah. And then it either works or, yeah. Yeah, there's a point at which, oh, that guy doesn't get to make movies anymore because he had two flops in a row. Right.

So he doesn't, oh, you don't see him on the posters anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Let's take it out of old man business complaint hour. I don't want to like. What did you think, Sam? I mean, about the industry? I mean, how long do you think I ended up in podcasting?

I had to stop being a set dresser because there was no... Wow, Sam, if you were to move to Georgia or Toronto or Vancouver, would you, could you be a full-time set dresser? I have friends that have done that. I mean, other than all the criminal charges again. Well, that's the... But they moved and are working. Some are, but I think it's a similar struggle just because also the business style has changed

just because of what you're saying about YouTube and streaming, like it is just different everywhere as well. But you can buy a house in Atlanta for a lot cheaper than you can't here. You know, you can live the cost of living, even though I think just in every urban setting that prices are going up. So I don't know. I actually don't know.

I'm just hanging on here and I'm having, I love living here too as well. So I'd love to see the industry come back in a different way. This is your last day. And also really, you know, you've been like engineering this show for a while. It really makes things come together for me to know that you're, that you're a set dresser. I actually did not realize that.

I'm like, looking at you. I'm like, that guy is a set dresser. I look like one. I guess he looked like unloading a box truck. I'm happy to not be breaking my back. I'll tell you that much. Yeah.

But I so miss the, you know, I miss working with my favorite thing about being on set was working with a hundred different people, all of whom has a different, different job description. And no one could imagine doing anyone else's job in a million years. Yeah.

Like the guy holding the boom mic, like I would say, Danny, thank you. Like most days. because he's standing there with it over his head, just listening to me talk, you know, and listen, oh, there's a little thing,

we gotta go again. I'm like, that would, I would kill myself if I had to do that for more than two days. I don't have the brain for it. I don't have the upper body strength. Like, and every job is like that. And that's what you need to make a TV show. And it's a, to make it all come together.

It's a rare thing. It was a very special thing to be a part of. Yeah. You're a part of it in a couple. I'm sure I will be again at some point. I'm just, you know, it's, I hope it doesn't go away entirely. It's not. Okay. I think it's just evolving.

Yeah, yeah. And it's scary. Yeah. That's what I think. Okay. Could be wrong. Yeah. But I think it's there, all those things are needed. They have not been replaced. Yes, you can make a YouTube video of somebody opening a box of Lego and that will get 50 million hit. That sounds great. Can we watch that right now? Yeah. My kids watched a ton.

of those growing up. But I'm like, oh, yeah, this is, but they also love, I was like, we're just watching sinners. And I was like, this is a piece of, yeah, as you were like, high, but it's a masterpiece, right? It's this, like, every deed is like, this could not happen in, you can't fucking just throw this together. Yep. And clearly.

Michael B. Jordan, I feel like, that's a star that we, yes. Like they were like, I think this guy's a movie star. And he is. Yep. And you know, Coogler is like, who's going to be able to keep getting money to make art house blockbusters? 20 years from now, like Paul Thomas Anderson, it'll be a Coogler, right? Yeah. He's proven it.

His stuff is so good. And I love that he does the thing where he's like, I love this new trend where they release it in five different film formats. And then he's doing a video going like, here's what IMAX 70 millimeter is. and it's only playing in like six theaters. And then people are talking about like, I gotta go see sinners in. Yeah. And that's,

I think, really good to like draw people in. Let me ask you about your fucking self. I would say like the length of movies I think is really has, I think there was a time when they were like, you got to make a, I look, I don't want any of my time wasted about anything because I'm so impatient about

everything. But I was like, the way that they have allowed movies to kind of now once again, being like, this thing's three and a half hours long. Great. If I'm well entertained for three and a half hours, incredible. I'm on board.

That's going like old Kubrick style. Yeah. Anyway, that was a tangent. I think, thank God for the Marvel movies when they're like, oh yeah, endgame, three fucking hours long. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Two movies.

Great. Great. I like when, like, Kill Bill, where they were like, we got two, we got so much stuff. Well, this is making two movies. Yeah, it's all get paid twice. Great. All right. I wanted to ask, like the stuff that you first became famous for the soup and community,

you are very famously like the avatar of snark in both of these. We're pretty similar. I hate to say the word snark. You're right. That's true. There's an edge to it, right? And when I met you, the thing that really jumped out is like, this is like one of the sweetest men I've ever met. You don't feel that way?

Did you feel any disjuncture between, you know, distance between yourself and that style of comedy, which was very popular at the time and you were like, you know, did such a great job of it. Thank you. Yeah. As did you. Thank you. We, I feel that it was a more heightened version because I would be more, and I was also very concerned about the jokes. But it was definitely me going, everything is stupid except for. this small part.

And saying stupid is not the best word because our rule at the soup was you can we can't call anything stupid and we can't call anything crazy because then that's just everything. And so we that's that so I guess it goes back to my 90, the 9010 rule, which was, oh, TV sucks, but isn't it great? Yeah. And also there was such great TV back then that we, it was. I would say that was the open frontier of reality shows that I got very lucky that they shows where publicists now would just be gang tackling their clients and holding them down and not allowing them to do like being Poppy Brown and like you cannot.

Yeah. Just film yourself doing this. And that was the Whitney Houston, Bobby Brown show. God rest her soul. but you can't do that. It doesn't happen that way. So I think my, yes, I love making fun of stuff. We were trying hard not to be mean. We were always trying to be like, let's let the clips hang themselves, and then we will comment about it.

And then with community, I got that because Dan Harmon's girlfriend at the time, she was like, that's the guy who, that's your lawyer guy. He was commenting on everything. And, and that's how that came together. So I, from watching the soup and being like, that's kind of what Winger is doing in the context of community. Yeah. Commenting on everybody else. Yeah. And so that's how it came together. And, and that was another one of those things. Where those Zazillion pilots, somehow we got chosen. Yeah. And I remember a TV critic going like, hey, you're after a good start. Let's even get out of your first season. And, and, and. And, I remember a TV critic going, like, hey, you're after a good start. And, And I remember going like, good God, God, God on the air.

How do we, how do we get out of our first season? And he's like, yeah, let's see if you don't get canceled during the season. I mean, getting the second season, like Sam Rice, who runs dropout now and ran college humor at the time when we got the second season, he was like, you know how rare it is to get like the second season? Like that's the, that's the hardest thing. Yeah. The pilot is hard. The first season is, okay, you got a first season. actually getting picked up again and not being forgotten is the thing that almost never happens.

Yeah. That's why with like animal control in a, in the post world of linear TV only having those choices get like Fox just going, I don't know. We like the show. We're going to keep it on. We like it. Yeah.

And it has did the thing that, you know, like the Seinfeld or the Cheers did where they were like, oh, no, no, we're going to hang in there because we like it. and now it's working. And so I was like, oh, so I'm very thankful that we hung in there. And like, it didn't happen with the Great Endores, Stephen Frye, Christmas Blast. I'm just going to name the whole cast again. That it was one season, obviously the age-old story of like, if you could have seen our ratings,

they would have, you know, through the roof and didn't make it. And they were like, if you can hold a fourth of Big Bang theories rating, you'll be the biggest hit in 10 years. And I'll be like, what? And it didn't happen. And so, anyway, it's, what am I saying? This is my very long answer about myself. But in conclusion, I never want to go back. I'd be remissed.

Isn't it weird though? Like, it's, I always go, I can't. We're doing a thing that we get, that we chose to do. Like, I was like, there are so many people out there that don't get to do the thing that they set out to do. Yes. I can't believe. So whenever I'm complaining or wherever I'm like, I'm really tired. I'm like, fucking someone's put a makeup on your face and you're doing your hair and then you're going to go tell jokes on camera.

I was like, what, what a wonderful world. You're able to find that joy in it. Sometimes I'll go through like a whole year and I'll forget to, you know, and a joke, a sort of gallows humor joke that I have done before is, you know, people say, oh, if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life. I'm like, that's not true. If you do what you love, it makes you hate the thing you love. If you want to hate comedy, do comedy for a living. That's why I feel sometimes. And that's when I'm being a bad comic.

That's when like, my shows are going poorly. If I'm on the road and I'm like, I wish I fucking wasn't going on station. Well, it's, but going on the road is a lot. Yes, it is. And that's how I, when I'm out, like, it's hard to, like, I know exactly what you're talking where I'm like, I wish I could be at home and see the family. And I was like, oh, but this is how this, this is the profession that I chose. And I'm so lucky that I'm getting to work in. I was like, I have to keep that always in mind. And I don't know when it's going to run out. Yeah. That's how I still have that same thing. And when I was like a 13 year old where I was like, ah, this is all. gonna, like that thing where you always feel like you're being chased by a boogie man. Like, this is your last job. And it's never going to happen again. But then you go, like your worst stand-up show of the last, like is, there are people

there that like, fucking, can't believe I'm seeing at him. Like, this is so great. Yeah. And that, and you forget about that. You're like a professional surfer is going to, like, if the whole. like, oh, fucking waves suck today. Yeah. You're doing something that is, you're, you're a magician out there with what you're doing.

Yeah. Anyway. It's true. And I, again, feel so lucky that I grew up watching cable, got to make a show on cable, because sometimes people come to the show and they're like, I used to want you growing up. And I'm like, oh, they have the same relationship to me that I had to like, to like Tom Lenin, like Michael E. in Black or like John Stewart. Or like, you, you quite frankly, you know, like someone whose work I watched and I was like, oh, I love this show.

I'd be remiss if I didn't say it was weirdly, it took a long time after, it wasn't until a couple years after making Adam ruins everything that I realized how influential community was on the making of that show. Oh. Because I didn't realize it until I went on Harmontown towards the last couple years. and the day that I went on, Harmon, before I showed up, watched some episodes of Adam and Rememers everything for the first time. And when I showed up, he was, like, it was a very big deal for me.

He was very complimentary about the show. He specifically complimented stuff that, like, nobody else does, like, that we had done, like, storylines mixed with the facts, and that the fact, the storyline that the information went through matched the storyline that the characters went through. So, like, the emotional, intellectual conclusion lined up. And it was always like a writer's compliment, right?

But as he was describing this, I'm like, oh, yeah, community season two was like so deeply influential. That's why this means a lot to me because that whole thing of you're being chased and this might be your last moment. Like it sort of felt like community season two is a little bit of a response to that feeling of we're going to throw in everything we can possibly do. Every episode, how do we top ourselves? Every episode, how do we surprise?

Every episode, how do we do something that the audience doesn't expect again, you know? Yeah. You want every jump to be a triple axle. And that was the same ethos we went into Adam ruins. Everything with was like just how much more can we cram in? Yeah. It was and like watching it now when I went back and watched a couple episodes to community last week.

It's like I don't want to say they don't make them like that anymore because I'm trying to not be an old man about it. But it was like it's really some of the pinnacle of television making. It was. How do it feel to be a part of it? Let me give me a question. Well, it was one of those things where we, we knew it was good. And we knew it was funny and we knew was good.

We knew Dan was a genius. We knew all that. Yeah. And it was a definitely a hard show to make because we weren't making like so many documentary style shows out there that were, we were making a movie every week. And the ratings were okay. Yeah. And so, and so every, as I said, like, they were, we were always just about to get canceled. Yeah.

And they would always be like, hey, can this, can this be the, the season and series finale? Season two, they did that. They were doing it every, and then eventually they did cancel it. Yeah. And then thank God for Yahoo! Screen, which then we got them canceled and the entire. Yahoo Screen? The last two seasons were on Yahoo!

screen. I forgot about that. Yeah. It was Yahoo screen. It was the last, uh, they were the last, I mean, there was the last moment that they were this huge, powerful, gigantic company. Yeah. When then it kind of it all tumbled and became T-Mobile, I think, uh, but they, they literally, one of the biggest failure stories in like web history, like how that happened. Because they were as big as, you know, Google or anything else. They were huge. We went to their campus. Yeah. I would, uh, it was, it was, it was, yeah, they had every, they had like a cricket pitch and like next

to that was a purple bar serving purple beer because that was their any, but the community, I don't I need to, like I know how lucky I was to be on there, but I need to appreciate because it's become more

like the even more like I think the pandemic actually, that's when people really, that's when it started getting passed around and Netflix was showing it. And that thing, it really, and we also, when we went to Comic-Con, we realized how many people were loving it the same way, I think, like, I think Depeche Mode does like a really good job of writing songs that make you feel like they're only talking to you.

And like, enjoy the silence or something like that. We're like, oh, this is a popular thing. And everyone thinks they were like, they get a little piece of it. And I was like, I don't, that was just, yeah, very, very, it's so cool. Like, I was with Donald and Danny and we're like, God, dang, we, Donald pointed it out. And he's like, that thing really was special. And I was like, yeah, it really was. And so lucky to have been on it.

Like, to this, like, I remember, like, the hours were so fucking crazy. We, every Saturday was a Friday. We were, we worked until six or seven in the morning. and then I would go home, have a glass of wine and a steak while my son woke up. And then the other son would get up and like, Daddy's going to go to bed. I'll see you in four hours. But I remember just going like, this is so special what we're doing. And I think as the world got more and more fantastic that we knew we were like,

oh, we're doing something different. This is great. Yes. And then, yeah, anyway, that was long. That was, I can't. I'm so glad it's prescient. and I just want to point out I use the word prescient. Yeah, that was, thank you.

That was big for you. That's a big word. I'd like to use the word demography at some point as well. Demography. I just don't think, or contiguous. Thank you. Contiguous is going to be a lot easier than demography, the field of studying populations of humans. Yeah.

But not demographics. You know what, demography. Right. Like you needed to meet a professor of demography. Right. So I feel like it's the only thing. time it gets used is and then when you want me to find a professor of demography they can come on the show and that you join me or when i hear people say contiguous there's everyone just blinks for a

second because that's what i did i'm like i'm gonna fucking look this up it sounds like continuous but it's got a g in it and they mean the same thing the fuck no sort of right contiguous because i was like look this up uh it means they're touching yeah continuous means the same thing contiguous is two things. It's like borders touching. Something that's contiguous is almost indistinguishable for something that's continuous, except there's a little seam.

There's a little. Yes. There's a little seam of them. We have a contiguous border with Mexico. I'm trying to figure out how to connect. But nobody uses it until it because people part of it, like, uh-huh, yeah. I'm trying to think of,

just throw that shit out there. Is there a way to emotionally connect that idea of contiguousness to what we've been talking about and say, contiguousness much like we were saying earlier, but I can't find it. Well, you just bring us for a landing. All right,

watch this. Well, the soup and community were contiguous, but our shows weren't because they weren't. Yours and mine. Yeah. They weren't touching each other. It doesn't work at all.

Fuck. It's like the way I hate the word synergy. And when that started getting used, I was like, can we just say energy? Or it's, Yeah. I mean, I was like, I'm not saying synergy.

I feel like it was everywhere, like in this town. It was like center. Yeah. You really feel the synergy. And that's why it made me want to grab a baseball bat and just. You know, our people use that now as video games. Oh, yeah, those two powers. Yeah, they have synergy.

They're synergize. That's useless. Do they really? Yeah. Yeah. Those two, yeah, those combo. Yeah, that combo, it's got synergy. You know what I'm talking about, Sam?

I don't know. See? All right. But what's, but that's not the, what is it, it's the military term when like all, like with the weapon systems are connected. Oh. I don't know. Like you're like, oh, the planes are talking to the missile systems. Right.

That are talking to the satellite and they're all. Are you trying to Google that? Yeah, good. But I don't know if it's a word. Is there. Maybe two words. Missile command. I don't think this is a word.

I think you're trying, I think you're trying to coin. something. Oh, well. I don't think I speak their word. Yeah, I don't know. I've wasted a lot of time talking about it. Well, I've been such a thrill to have you on the show. Well, now we're friends, right? Yeah, now we're friends.

Sorry, Sam. That's okay. But, yeah, I've always been you're always been when I got filing out to meet. You're like, oh, as you're saying, I'm like, oh, he's a nice man. He's a nice man. He's not a weirdo. You know, you see sometimes you meet people

like. Whenever people like, never meet your heroes, I'm like, meet all your heroes. It's just the one or two of them are going to be awful. Yeah. Everybody else is pretty great. I also think it's like, I'm like, I'm so glad I'm a nice person because it's like a disability, I think, to be an asshole. Yeah. And, you know, like somebody who, you know, like everyone likes this such and such a, you know, actor of personality.

And then the story comes out about how they were like so shitty to, you know, a service worker somewhere or they did something unconscious. and like, you know, oh, now their careers ruined or they had some big hit from that. And I'm like, oh, thank God, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that because I'm a nice, I'm a nice, like, I won't suffer this embarrassment, you know?

There is not a single story that I've ever, I was like, if you don't hear a story about anybody, they're probably pretty great. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, or you don't got to cover anything up if there's nothing to cover up, you know? Yeah.

That's, I remember Michael Keaton being interviewed after like a second Batman. They're like, how come you're never in the tabloids? And he was like, well, pretty boring. I just want to raise my kids. And I was like, yeah, great. That's a good model. You don't have to go apologize.

I don't apologize on a late-night show for raising your kids. Yeah. Fuck, can you imagine? Well, if you want to do something bad, you can come by here and apologize for it anytime you want me. All right. What am I going to apologize for? I'm sorry to the number of shoe companies that have fucked me over for not having size 14s.

See what I did? This is your toxic trait now. You're blaming the companies. I blame, yeah. Yeah, the man. All right. All right, I've wasted your time. Thanks so much for time.

1152, guys. We're doing great. Okay, good. My mom and dad are feeling better. They both have the flu. So, all right. Isn't it sad? You put your phone down for a fucking hour.

I know. Thanks so much for being here, man. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you. My God, thank you once again to Joel for coming on the show. If you want to support this show and all the conversations we bring you, patreon.com slash Adam Conover.

Five bucks a month. You get every episode of the show ad free. 15 bucks a month. I'll read your name or silly username in the credits of the show. This week we got Yuri Lowenthal, Lee Riggs, Fakriden Ibrahimov, Troy Stifler, and thanks for a great show at Punchline SF. Thank you, thanks for a great show at Punchline SF.

If you want me to read your name or silly username at the end of the show, head to patreon.com slash Adam Con over 15 bucks a month or five bucks a month or one buck a month. We'd love to have you support us at whatever number you're able to. I want to thank my producers. Oh, real quick, Sacramento, California, La Jolla,

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