Factually! with Adam Conover - Sonic the Hedgehog vs. the Real Housewives and Urkel with with Exploration: LIVE!

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

Did you know that there are other podcasts out there besides Factually? And some are even… good?! This week, Adam talks to Headgum network colleagues Charley Bardey and Natalie Rotter-Laitman from Exploration: LIVE! about how to balance the business of being funny with the sheer horror of everyday existence. Check out Exploration: LIVE! wherever you get your podcasts.--SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. There, and welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Kanover. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast once again. But did you know that this is not the only podcast out there? I know. I'm blowing your mind. Don't stop listening and go check out those other shows right away.

Stay with me. But let's just acknowledge for a moment that out there on the internet, there are three to seven other podcasts with funny, charming hosts who know a lot of things and are very well dressed. Not just me. There's a couple others. And one of those shows is produced right here on the Headgum Network, on the very network that I'm a member of.

The show I'm talking about is Exploration Live. Now, this show is really funny and charming. It has built a devoted following, including among my own staff of my podcast, as it turns out. In fact, earlier today on our workplace Slack, they essentially rose up against me by praising Exploration Live so much. Turns out, I'm number two. their book, Exploration Live, is number one.

And you know what? I can handle that. I'm number two in a lot of people's books, including my own mothers. Let's move on. I'll joking aside, I really love the show as well. And they've built a really devoted following because they take deep dives into literally anything. The smallest subjects are the ones that they go deepest into.

And that is a methodology after my own heart. And they are visiting Los Angeles right now from New York City, where I myself, used to live. I thought that would be a very wonderful opportunity to have them on the show to chat about podcasting, comedy, and really whatever else crosses our minds. We're trying to loosen our ties and relax and just have some fun chats here on factually. That's the vibe for the second half of 2026. So I hope you'll join me and have a good time and just chill out with some funny, smart, charming people. Now, before we get into it, I want to remind you if you want to support the show, head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover. Five bucks a month gets you every episode of

the show, ad free. You can also join our wonderful online community. We would love to have you. And now without further ado, please welcome Natalie Roder-Lateman and Charlie Barty, the hosts of Exploration Live. Thank you guys for being here. Of course. I do have a problem, which is that this show is it started out with me exclusively

interviewing experts about like specifically things. I used to go like about things they know that you don't know. And I don't know. All of our minds are going to get blown. And now I've lately been wanting to just talk to more funny people, I have more relaxed conversations. But then I'm like, what do we, where do we start? You guys have a general chat podcast.

So how do you get going on your show? Yeah, it's a good question. We talk about random fucking crap. It's like, you know what? A lot of it is just patience until you find something. Yeah. And it's being like, like, if you can project to your audience, like, don't worry. I know this is nothing yet, but we'll get there.

Then your audience is kind of like, okay. And by the way, well, I don't want to be like, Are we talking? Are we on? Yeah, we're on. Oh, fuck. Yeah, yeah. It's like one of those podcasts where we're on. Oh, my God.

Hey, guys. Hey, everyone. Saw all of our fans out there. Can I tell you, I might have told this story on the show before, but I did Mark Maron's podcast like a couple years ago after having listened to it for 10 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even after listening to it for 10 years, the moment where you're like, you, you knock on his door, he's like, hey, how are you?

Oh, the studio's back here. You walk in and you sit down. and he puts on headphones and then the show has just begun, which I had heard happening over and over again. It was such a shock to have it happening. I'm on the show. Yeah. What about a little right camera lights?

Nothing changes in the space, but then there's actually a huge change in the dynamic, which is that what you're saying is being recorded and heard by like big billions of people. That's why it's nice to have a big red light. You know? Like news or whatever? They have a red light on that camera.

It's so subtle, but it is still like. It speaks a thousand words. Yeah. So that's maybe, well, we do. You don't have one. Yeah. What do you do? We do it to kind of begin ours is if we have a guest, we usually are like, but it's

awkward in a different way is we'll be like, we're going to bring you in. So we'll like talk for like three minutes. And often the guest really wants to participate. So the guest will be like, I hate that. I know. And we're acting as if they're not there. But actually, it's, you're kind of falling on the sword because it's like we end up having like a really uninteresting meandering, like opening.

combo. But then when the guest comes in, they have all this energy of like, I wanted to say this and this and this and this. You're talking about your sweater having holes in it. My, I used to go to a specific tailor. Like a spring. Yeah, exactly. You're like charging them up like Sonic the Hedgehog 2.

Yeah. Where you guys are younger than me. Not familiar with this. But I can imagine being charged up and I know how Sonic moves and I imagine. Just a little millennial content if you'll indulge me as you duck and you go like, we're there. We're there. And then you rock it off. You're charging them up with energy.

I do that. Look at my shirt. Look what it says. It says Game Boy. It says Game Boy. Is that Sonic? Yeah. Sonic was on there.

Yeah. I'm, no, it's Sega. So it's like, you know what? Legit. Take that shirt off. And by the way, it's like, I'm almost like, should we edit that out? No, I'm going to be honest. You're showing off your Game Boy shirt and then immediately show yourself not.

Because Sonic is in Super Smash Bros. But actually, famously, it was kind of a get for them. And it was a like, it was like really bad example. It was like Nixon opening China. Like it was like a huge like cross-cultural. They were like they did it. Like untold thousands of hours of negotiations between these warring parties. Can I tell you something?

I realized they're my conservatism because my first reaction was I don't like it. I don't like it. You don't like change. This is Nintendo. You don't like change. I was a kid. Well, when I was a kid, it was like the division between. between like the Nintendo kids and the Sega kids was so stark.

I don't even know this word. The Sega Genesis was another. So there's the Super Nintendo and there was a competitor called the Sega Genesis. A different apparatus. Completely different device. Yeah, a different thing. There's an Android to Nintendo's iPhone. That's right.

And it was edgy. The marketing was edgy. So like the commercials would all end with a guy going, Saga! Sorry, but that's what he would do. I believe you. It just really surprised me. It worked.

By the way, did you see how I took it? Can you play that back? You didn't start at all. One of you flitled or one of you didn't. We learned something about you. No, really. I mean, I was totally startled and then I giggled. But I was such a kid where I was like, I was like, no, that's too intense.

Like, Mario's nice. He's a plumber. Yeah, of course. That's so sweet. I'm like, I'm not needing to be. I was, I think in my age, it was like Nintendo versus like PlayStation and Xbox. And I was like ardently Nintendo because I was like, I wanted to be like cute. and fun.

Yeah. I don't need to be like a big guy with a big gun going into space or on a battlefield. Like, I was not doing Halo. I was not doing Call of Duty. Like, that was not my world. It wasn't interested. And still, it's like I picked up those games. I picked up Super Smash Bros.

and Melee. And I was like, you can play as Princess Peach. And now, I'm seriously gay. And it really just lines up like that. It's been amazing. It's true. Like sneakily one of the most popular characters in Mario Kart. people love to choose peach.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're really in. Well, because it's subverting a thing. I don't have any... You don't play any video games. Feeling on this, except support for my guys. You're one of them now. Thank you.

For real. You support us in our choices? Of course. I don't want to see it. Honestly, I have like a very old school homophobic attitude with this where I'm like, I love people who play video games. I don't want to see it. I don't think they should shove it in my face.

I want to be around it, but I support them. Yeah. That was not funny. Like, really? Wow. It's fine. I don't care, but I'm just like, why did I say all that? A dynamic in our podcast that happens sometimes is like most of our, we love to talk together.

Our interests, like, often overlap, but they sometimes don't, which is that, like, I really love video games. And Natalie really loves, like, Bravo, Cinematic Universe, Housewives. And so we kind of just have to carve out a little space. I'm aware of it. You know about it. But there's no overlap between. I don't, no, I'm video games. I don't.

Right, right. I've never seen, I've never seen, like, a competition reality show or non-competition. Not competition. Apart from Kid Nation, which aired on CBS in, like, 2000. I remember that show. They were very controversial and they had kids. When they made the kids live alone. They made the kids live alone.

I saw, I saw some of this on YouTube and I couldn't take it. It broke my heart. No, it's not okay. I was like, someone get them a binky now. Here's the thing about that show. They put a bunch of kids in a wild west town. They make them form a government, right? Right.

Oh, they're leaving them alone. They were surrounded by a. adults who were filming the show. It's almost worse. Because it's like the adults who are filming the show and we're like not stepping in. You know what I mean?

It's like, kids are like, I need help. And the adults are like, that's really good for TV. Like, you needing help and not getting it is really, really compelling. So we're just going to film that. Like, do kids?

Uh, no. Okay, so none of us. Yeah. What are we doing? Right. It's like, kids could never be anything other than themselves. I know.

Pretend to be. That's why I'm addicted to them. Yeah. I love kids. They're like, it's just like you're around a kid and they're just like, you look weird. And you're like, thank you for this like, for this true blue fucking moment. You know? You are being honest about what you feel and we can really engage with it.

Yeah. Of course, I imagine sometimes it can feel bad in different contexts. You know what? This is what I think about this. I was in Annie for a long time. I have a lot of opinions about this. You're completely canned. You were in Annie?

And yes, I was in Annie, a production of Annie for years. No, I was a mani. A nanny. Oh, a nanny. Yeah. Okay. But, well, I've not something else to say about that. I have a lot to tell you.

Better listen up. There's this really sad documentary called After Annie. Oh, yeah. I told you about this. Okay, well, Mr. Smart. Here it comes. Oh, we're on Annie now because I said, we're going to go there and then we're going to go back to the nanny.

And I'm not going to derail. We're going to do it all. Yeah. No, we're going to do it all. Of course. We don't have to choose. We have no heart. It's our podcast.

Exactly. I wanted to take the day off. Exactly. We got this. We got this. After Annie is basically about like all, like when, when Annie began, it was obviously caught like wildfire and there were productions everywhere, regional productions, all throughout touring, Broadway cast, cast, like coming home all different rounds

of cast. And the girls needed to be like young girls. so they would like age out like this. You know what I mean? They were like 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, boom, you're out. Yeah. And it made basically this like population of girls who had been like brought into the entertainment world

at that age and given jobs. And then all of a sudden we're like, there was no parts. There was no world for them for the rest of their lives. Well, it's like you're a red-headed 16-year-old girl. And they literally all like fell to harrowing circumstances, many of them. Right. One person in the documentary was like, I'm married with kids.

I'm a luckiest woman alive. I cannot believe everyone else is like, cocaine. You know, things got really crazy. What is the equivalent? I'm trying to think of what is the equivalent of this today where we've created a type of entertainer who's now been discarded. Oh, yeah. It's soon to be discarded.

And there'll be a big bulge of them. I'm like, you're looking at them. Just kidding. No, girlfriend. Don't even say it. I'm like, don't let podcast. I feel like there's like a type of like, there's a type of TV writer that's like having a hard time.

Yes. Honestly. Well, I'll tell you, no, it's a real problem in L.A. like where, you know, peak TV happened. Yeah. And they went from, they didn't just suddenly make a whole bunch more TV shows. They made less episodes of even more shows. So instead of being like there's 22 episodes,

now they're doing three, eight episode series. So they need to hire more writers. Right. So all these people move to L.A., they get their first big job. Yeah, yeah. They're like, hooray! And they never get another job again. Or they're unlikely.

They're far less likely to get their same. And the jobs are fewer and far between. And also the jobs don't last as long. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, you have a paycheck, but it's for like two months. Yeah. And your next one might not come for another year. It's been really rough the last couple of years for that reason.

Yeah. I'm going to say this. Okay. Say it. I'm worried. Me too. Don't be. He's got this.

Go ahead. Never mind. No, no. It's like, yeah, just say it. I know what you're going to say. Well, like, like the thing that I find so kind of being in it and so like gawling sometimes.

I actually don't know now. Well, I was just complaining about it to you. The fact that how often you're expected to like, if you do get something, they're like, it's so desirable to get a job and the market is so in their favor that like they know you'll take it under any circumstances. And so people get jobs and it's like, okay, great. So it's Friday and you're starting Monday. And it's like, right.

So like, who can actually accept a job on two days notice? Yeah. If you also have like a life and responsibilities and another. job. And this happens like legit all the time. Yeah, you're, you're expected to throw everything aside. Right. Right. Right. And that's like if you're lucky and you get a job. Yeah. Which like mostly one doesn't. So that's tricky. So but this I think about, you know, I think about it all the time with like, you know, if ever I like despair about what it means to be like an entertainer, I'm like actually throughout history, bigillions of people had their ways of life just like. Right. Think of the cobbler. Yeah, the cobbler or whatever.

Oh, I've always been a fisherman on this river delta. Well, guess what? The Delta dried up. Now I've got to go. Now I have to learn how to carry stuff or whatever. Or you just are in. You sound like Hillary Clinton talking to a coal miner. Yeah.

Late 2016 and this is how we got here. And I'm like, and what happened? I'm behind. She must have. I mean, if that's how she's talking, gosh, he's about to blow it out of the pot. What I love her? And by the way, we're going to get to your nanny story. I'm so behind on the news.

Me too. I'm not sure I have it. I was just thinking during that thing. I was listening half and I was going. I didn't know. I had to come to the end of the story, which everyone is waiting to hear. Okay.

But what is your guys experience in, you know, the entertainment industry? Because I came up in a very traditional, you know, I was like, I knew it, your old school.

I watched cable growing up and then I did a show on cable. And it was literally like the last show. They canceled my show and then they like shut the door on cable. Like actually this whole, whole idea doesn't work. Basically.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it disappeared within a couple years. Nothing exists on cable at all anymore. Oh my God. Broadcastle is dying and streaming is completely different. So what was that moment,

did it feel so dream come true to get the thing that you would always wanted in the exact way? You know what I mean? Like it wasn't some random version of it. Yeah. It was like really, I was like, oh, the thing happened.

Uh-huh. And then especially, you know, my boss at the time or Sam Rice who runs dropout now. When we did the second season, he was like, you like, no, how unlikely this is, like to sell a pilot, to make the pilot, have that pick up. And then to do the second season is like, that's you've really. Now you're in rarefied air. Yeah.

But it was like, here's the goal that you can try to hit. And if I can't cancel after one season, we'll try again next year or do another one. Now it's like, you know, if I had entered the industry like five years later, it would have been. I grew up watching Cable and then by the time I was old enough to do it it doesn't exist you gotta find something else.

That's kind of our to you I would say a little bit we like watching Cable and like it just doesn't I always think about like what it means to this sentence I always think about what it means

to make a meaningful life but it's true I do and I always think about it as like the Nikki Blonsky experience of like like you know one of our expectations of ourselves is that we like

not only make something meaningful but also we continue to do so but there's people who make like one really amazing thing and don't have like these long enduring careers. And I'm like, and that is still too really like admirable and beautiful. And like Nikki Blonsky was in hairspray and then she was in a few other things. And now it's like she doesn't have such like a, I mean, maybe she.

But you're, but you're, but there's also a part of it, which is that Nikki Blonsky's like Twitter presence is like a lot about hairspray. Yeah. Like you mean that like there's a, there's a sense. Yeah. We don't know exactly how she feels, but there's a sense that Nikki Blonski's like, period. Right. Right.

Right. I did that. People are like making fun of her. It's not like, what next? It's like, yeah, I'm Nikki Bonski from Hairspray. Like, that was awesome. And it's like, you know what? Like, if you make one really good movie, like... Well, think about rewatch land.

Right. Rewatch culture. Right. You know what I mean? They're like, remember that? Yeah, exactly. For sure. Like, I remember.

You can do a lot. Question. Some people are cursed. Some people are cursed by it, you know. Either one big thing. Yeah. I mean, I admit. It's a hard thing to live.

When I was working at. college humor, Jaliel White, who played Urkel, came in. Oh, yeah. And it was like, you didn't even have to be old. Yeah. Just do not mention. He's here to do something completely different. Were you able to or was it, you know, remember in Austin Powers when he's like,

mole, mole, molly. You know what I guess? Of course. I don't. Oh. You don't? No. But you left.

This is just a good performance. Yes. It's sort of a general social lubrication. Yeah, exactly. I did. I got got got lubrication. book. Well, I'll tell you, Austin Powers is basically speaking with someone who has a big mole on their face.

I think it's a woman. And he's like, how are you mole? Yes. Mole, mole. He's just like trying not to say. He's trying not to say it and he just fails. He ends up saying moly, molly, molly, molly. It's basically my dad's favorite thing that has ever happened.

Seriously. I believe it. I'm like so happy for him that his favorite thing happened. Maybe he has my one big thing with the mole thing. Where your dad, he's like, I've already seen the mole thing. Everything else is all good. But then you're right, it can be a what now. I'm like, do you feel, sorry?

Do you feel like what now about like you had a big TV show? And like now you're like, but you also don't have to answer that. And I can give you another question to answer instead. No, that's fair. And it truly is your podcast now. No, I mean, I was lucky enough to get to do, we did a Netflix show after the first show that was like, okay, it's like an evolution of the thing. And then it has been weird to do like, okay, the podcast is like the thing on the side. Yeah.

And then that's become like the main thing that I do. Yeah. But then I also started like after the Netflix show, I started like really doing stand-up because when I started in comedy, I just wanted to do stand-up. And then I, but I was also a sketchwriter. I got a TV show from the sketchwriter piece. Yeah. And I was like, now I can tour as a stand-up, but people don't like know. Yeah.

That's always tricky. So I've been trying to You're like, No, no, I do this too. I am a stand-up comic and now I feel like I have proven this at least to myself. And everybody knows that I'm a stand-up comedy.

No, they don't. No, people know it. Say it now. You guys, you fucking know. Shut the fuck up. Shut up for once. You know what? Adam's a stand-up.

I feel like there's something interesting thinking of the Urkel of it all of like what, how far the reach of the thing you're known for goes. Like maybe you have people have like one thing that like a bejillion went so far. You know what I mean?

Like someone was like in a movie that was like a huge whatever. Right. But then like keeps like Charlie XX-EX-Vives until Brat Summer I would say was kind of like the boom clap girl to the majority of people. And that also felt so not her like the thing that she felt closest to. Kind of like some people and gay people. She had this whole other like career that's like yeah, it doesn't really. matter how you're known to like the wider, wider public if you feel like you keep making work and there's an audience that gets it, even if it's like, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. You want to have some. So that's T. So maybe Urkel has like another amazing like show or projects. But it must be, I mean, it's hard to have something. That went too big. I did find myself looking up, why did I do this?

I was looking up Urkel. Yeah. And they did an animated Christmas movie like three years ago that he's. in written by Wyatt Sannack. I found that really interesting. Wyatt Seneck, who I'm a big fan of. Yeah, there you go. Ended up writing an Urkel movie.

Nicole Bayer's in it, a bunch of great people. And he plays Urkel? Joliel White plays Urkel. Yeah, yeah, right. No, no, no, right. I just mean it's not like him as like a father time or whatever. No, it's like, it's like, Erkle is saving Christmas. Oh, that's great.

Yeah. That's why Christmas got saved. I always forget that. That's the origin story. That's the origin story of Christmas being saved. Yes. Urkel was Sonic. Do you see this?

Change around the words. Urkel was... Oh, really? Are you kidding me? Wait, wait, wait. Is your name Walter? Is that just on your shirt? Herk was the voice of Sonic.

What's your name? He was the voice of Sonic. Okay. Jalilil White was the voice of Sonic. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? That's arguably bigger than Urkel. Yeah, that's pretty big.

Obviously, girlfriend. Also, plus, we started talking about Sonic. Right. Like, that is crazy. We are dumb and through our dumbness. and through, can you just remind me your name really quick? That's Tony. Tony.

His shirt says Walt. So you're like, so you go by Tony, your name is Walt. When you were doing the mic's for us, I was like, that's funny. He's wearing his name is Waltz and he's wearing a shirt that's Waltz on it. Nope. Anyways, Tony. Tony is like pointing out that we, our dumbness, like, walked us into this, like, beautiful thing where we were, like, worshipping this guy and then talking about him like he was completely discarded.

Yeah. He's probably a good jibigillionaire. Yeah. From Sonic alone. He's also Sonic the Hedgehog. And that must feel better than anything to, I'm getting super worked up. Exactly. It's not because it must be honestly kind of interesting and satisfying for him to be like, you know what?

Who cares that people know I'm Urkel? I did this amazing voice acting work. Yeah. You know, like the work itself. Yeah. And I just love. You know what, fuck you guys. Like this is awesome.

And I love a badgering going, you know, people know me from Merkel, but you know what? You know what work of mine really matters to me? Is Sonic the Hinesk? I mean, I bet he does a really good voice. I don't know what Sonic sounds like. I mean, people care about Sonic. People care about Sonic so much more than they cared about Urkel in the 90s. Really?

People love Sonic. There's new Sonic. Like, when I was nannying, there was Sonic with like James, I want to say Cameron. James Marsden? Yes. You know, literally, you know what? I watched all of that movie on someone else's screen. on a plane.

Like almost like front to back. Wow. So you missed the whole Urkel of it. Well, exactly the vocal component. No, but it wasn't he wasn't, it was the new movies.

I don't think he's the voice in the new movie. Does he do it? Ben Schwartz is the new Sonic. Okay. This isn't like an animated series in the 90s. That's why I don't watch the new ones. Right. Yeah.

Exactly. I support. Because we all know it's Urkel. Right. Exactly. Like I can't get his voice out of my head. No, I watched it and was like, cool. But I don't care about Sonic so much.

Turning around a sign that says, Erkle was Sonic. Also with like a real urgency I mean you're right It's like holding up You were right to be urgent I think one of the problems of being an actor March the one's sonic

Marching down the street Actors have so little agency In this business to decide what they are Like Julele White didn't choose to be that Of course not Folks you know I've said on the show before That as a comedian in this day and age You basically have to be your own small business

And you know I didn't said how to be a small business owner but there are some fun things about it. You get to choose a name. You get to come up with company letterhead. You can go down to the print shop and get yourself some special envelopes. If you work in the entertainment industry,

you can make one of those vanity cards that goes at the end of the show like, and then it's got like, or maybe there's like a little sample like, hey, get off of my porch. You can sort of picture what I'm talking about, right? That's the fun part. We have fun with that.

But, you know, the reason you get to have have that fun, at least in my case, is because Gusto does all the not fun parts of running a business for me. Gusto is online payroll and benefit software that is built for small businesses like mine and maybe like yours. It's all in one remote-friendly and so incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. And you know, my payroll is pretty simple, but Gusto is ready to be as complex as you need.

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who's the aide to Ambassador Jakar. I am Nattoff. You are Nattov? You play Nattoff? No, but I'm Natali. Yes, you are. I feel like I'm Nattoff. And there were two actors who played Nattoff.

And I had a memory of, I was like, I went to a science fiction convention, my senior year of high school. And the actress who played Nattoff was like sitting there doing signatures. And even as a fan of the show, I was like, that kind of has to suck for her, right? Like she didn't, she's not like one of these people necessarily. She just happened to be cast. You think it wasn't like too nerdy for her or something? I'm just assuming. It's like, okay, well, you're an actor.

You're not working this month. You might as well go to the convention and charge 20 bucks. That said, like if you're a kid dreaming about being an actor, what else do you dream about but the Sig? Yeah, you're like, it's cool. I get to do the thing. And it's, I mean, this happens to me in a much smaller way sometimes where people will come up to me about, like, tweets I've done or like a specific video I've made.

And I'm like, that's not one of the ones I really care about. Or it'll be like one where I'm like, it's such like a, like, it's so like the main one or it's like such a public one that it doesn't feel like it has any. real attachment to me or my like, you know, and I have the feeling of being like, yeah, but what about my other work? People will be like, I love this tweet

you did, and it'll be a tweet from like eight years ago. Yeah, and I'm like, that's not even me. That's like fried on, it's like, and they saw it on like a meme page called like, I'm 30 AF, you know what I mean? And like that's like where they're seeing it. And I'm like, so I just am not going to be able to give a fuck about that. Like, I get what you're

talking about. But obviously still, it's like it doesn't happen enough. for me to become bitter about it. It's like I just sense that like bubbling thing of like, I don't care. And then I'm like, you know what, this is cool to be known for anything at all. What do you think about, I mean, we've literally been talking about like the, like, Urkel level fame where he was like as famous as the president for a period.

I as a child, I had like an Urkel sweatshirt. Which was a mistake because I was a nerdy kid in elementary school. So the kids call me Urkel for the rest of the year. People are like, oh, I see. The resemblance. It's like, in the attitude resemblance. Yeah. And then, you know, like, cable or whatever, right?

In my case, you're like, the thing people recognize you for is a, is a tweet. Yeah. Which is such a smaller. Micro, micro culture. And also, it's like I had my, like, a huge part of my, like, life and entertainment was I had, like, a moderately successful Twitter account. I had, like, 100,000 followers. And, like, you know, it was cool. It was known for it.

Like, I didn't see, like, a penny from that ever. Like, obviously it led me to other things and it led me to, like, you know, some stuff that did that was ultimately remunerative, but like just that was like, it was so funny to be working so much on something. Like it really was an active part of my day. Yeah. Coming up with jokes and now I'll go back in like my archive and be like,

oh my God, I'm this like huge corpus of jokes that I did like, like kind of for what? Like I know it was helpful in a bunch of ways, but it is still a little bit like for what, like to what end? Not that there is no end, but that like, it's a little bit diffuse

as opposed to it being like, oh, I had a show or I had a thing and that was like, but I guess you just have to appreciate it. I'm like, yeah, it's cool. A lot of people saw it. I like, I did stuff. I liked some of those jokes.

Yeah. And I got to be in it for the love of the game. Yeah. A little bit more. Well, it's like a weird, like with social media, it's kind of like, when do you feel satisfaction? Yeah.

From like what you've done. Like a show, it's really, you know, you're like, I really did something. Yeah, it made a thing. You can be doing some of all. day. It's like, you know, you know, like. You know, this is coming up for me, and this will be an amazing opportunity for me to

plug something I worked on. Please. Which is that I made a sketch with my friend. And we were like, you're going to love this. You're going to love it. Hold on. Sketch guy. Here we go.

I'm like, yeah, hey, right? You love that kind of stuff. Yeah, I do. I want all the clipboard, damn it. You want to? Yeah. Okay. There you go.

Ellis. I didn't write these questions. So cute. Who wrote them, Tony? This is Sam. Our producer Sam wrote them. Good job, Sam. You're getting a sneak preview.

Yeah, you go ahead, Charlie. Well, I made a sketch with my friend Richard, and we were like, we put a little bit of money into it. We wanted to make it look nice. And, you know, part of the joke of it is that it has, like, kind of a, that it has, like, a look, right? And we released it on Instagram, and it did, like, pretty well, not, like, viral, but, like, a bunch of people watched it.

People thought it was good. And I was, like, great. Like, and I'm kind of right now reckoning with this question of, like, so I made it and I made this thing. And we didn't go into it being like, well, we're going to do this and that's going to really get us this thing. We're like, we're going to like make money from it. We were like, we want it.

Maybe as like, maybe as like a proof of concept. We'll show it around to people. Maybe somebody will give us money to do more in the future. But it's actually not the thing that's going to like make as a bajillionaire. Like maybe we'll get a sketch show from it. I have somebody to say about this. Yeah. Do you have anything?

Sorry. I just don't want to cut. I'm sorry I'm sorry seriously let's give you some space I'm sorry just to be like

I'm so well positioned I know to do the you but I'm actually going to pimpe you into it person with nothing I'm sorry I'm sorry

person with nothing to say well I just feel like I yeah I just want to I already took the comport so it's like at what point to respect what do you have to say about this basically just I feel like

first of all I feel like putting stuff out into the into the universe aka the internet. But the universe as well, meaning also live performance. Like the way that it will turn into something

that is like related to work is never like temporally connected to when it happens. Like it's always like leader. And you don't know. You kind of just do it and you're like this will find its own path if it does. Second of all, I think there's something really good about working the muscle of like having an idea and bringing it to fruition.

Like that thing is like really valuable. Yeah. Even if this thing doesn't go, doesn't have like an impact. It's like doing the thing of like, oh, I had an idea for something funny or interesting. And I'm actually going to see if I can do it all the way and execute it. It's like that inevitably parts of it that like you finish something and you're like, oh, actually next time I would do that differently. And you don't want the first time you actually get a bunch of money to do something to be the first time you've ever done it. Yeah.

You want to actually like come into something with like, oh, I know kind of the. the pitfalls. I know. I think something I struggle with a lot personally now, though, is that like when I started doing comedy, it was me and my college friends and then we moved to New York and we were like making sketches

incredibly elaborate, time-consuming sketches that we were doing just for the joy of creativity, mostly. Yeah. Like we did a, we did a UCB show where once we staged a fight between, a ghost and the invisible man.

And we did that by rigging, like, dozens of props using fishing wire that we would, like, be pulling. And it took, like, all day. And in retrospect, I'm like... So what? It would be like a vase goes this way. And it's like, oh, they knocked it over. It would be like, you know...

And a lot of it was... A lot of the jokes were about how bad the prop was. It was like, you know, oh, let me drink my beer. And, you know, would, like, sort of roughly be pulled up and spill on the ground. and stuff. But, um...

It's funny. And people were voicing it. Yes, we were voicing it offstage. Like, wow, you're laughing just like that. I like it's a good content. It's a good bit. It was really great. But the, it was like took five people.

Of course. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I'm like in retrospect, I'm like, we did that just for, you know, how many people of that room fit? 50 people. You're not even clipping it. You know what I mean?

You're not even like posting it, clipping it. But it felt like a big deal to us to do it. Right. But now I, I've got. gotten, I've connected the dot so fully between I make something, it goes here, people see it, and I get something out of it, I make some money

off of it, I make a, it's my living, I make a living off of it, I, I gotta pay the bills, and it's hard for me to do something because my brain goes so fast to, towards like, there's a reward here and what is it? Yeah, you know, this is like, right, yeah, I feel

like this was my, like sometimes when I get frustrated with the industry now, or like, I have a thing that like gets close and doesn't go, whatever. Like, I will really deliberately, like, turn away from any, like, financialized version of what I do and be like, basically I had, like, one, I'll be personal. I had, like, uh, let's fucking spill the tea.

He's not ready. Um, I, like, made a pilot. I mean, like an animated pilot and it got, like, passed. But we made, we did like the animatic. We did all the stuff. Cast it, recorded everything. It was so good. It was really good and really funny.

So shout out to myself for doing a great job. That said, didn't go, you'll never get to see it. So after that, I was like, what do I do? Like, it was like two years of work. I got paid for it, so that was, like, swaggy and, like, that was awesome. But it's, like, kind of random to do a bunch of stuff. And you're like, literally what was to what end was that? Yeah.

And obviously, it's more work than the money is actually worth, right? So in response to that, I kind of did, like, I literally was like, it's time for me to, like, do the least financially rewarding, like, artwork I can. And I basically was like, I'm going to start writing. short stories and writing poems. And like, I know that like best case scenario, like, like you can publish a book of poems or short stories, but like even really successful authors will tell you, like, it is not a money-making venture. No.

Like, like, you have to be, you literally have to write a book so that it's adapted into like a Hulu show. Yeah. Like, that's the only way to really make money as an author. And it was nice to kind of like really explicitly like reject the kind of thinking of like everything has to be for something. Just to be like, let me reconnect a little bit with like the idea that it's kind of fun and rewarding to like make a thing. Yeah.

You don't like this. No, no, no. I'm just thinking about how, you know, through like a labor lens, which is how I think about a lot because of the union work I've done for years. I like, I look at the publishing industry and I'm like, this industry is profiting off of the willingness of people to put in work. Totally, totally. Oh, there's so many aspiring authors. They all have dreams. and they'll all work for...

You'll take advantage. The only reason the industry works is because there's so many people who are willing to do that and there's no other costs. Right. It's just one person's time. You convince them to do that for a five grand advance.

Then the publisher is placing a free bet. Maybe this one will blow up and if not, we only lost five grand. Right. I mean, the dream is subsidizing the advance. But how many times it's like doing any of the work you have to do to get a TV writing

job, especially like these packets? Sometimes you're like, oh my God, this is like days and days of work. Yeah. And you are like that you're asking so casually of people. And the only reason your thing is possible is because so many people are doing it. And most of them, like, you will never pay. I mean, I'm scared to say more, honestly. But who's going to be watching this?

A lot of people, guys. I just mean like, no. Yeah. Anyway, I very much agree and think about it all. Actually, the thing that I... But that could stop you from making the art. That's the problem. Like my knowledge of the, like, literally, like, friends of mine have written books.

They're like, why you write a book? I'm like, why? Yeah. It's a bad business. Right. And they're like, you might have a book in your heart. Do you think you've a book in your heart? Yeah.

I mean, I've been working on a book proposal for a year, like quotation marks. It's about, uh, the idea is like a book of, like, humor essays about, like, sex and dating from like a male perspective. Because I went through about a, like a, you dropped your jaw. Well, because that's just one of my topics. Is it really? Dejure.

Dejure of the day. Sex and dating from a male perspective. Yeah, I'm interested in that one. It's not how I come at it. So me and my, I went through a breakup like about a year and a half, fish ago. I'm so sorry. Thank you very much.

Not okay. It's not easy. It sucks. It's really rough. And I, oh, I, I, I, have just recorded an hour of stand-up about it. That's, by the way, a very normal part of the healing process. I myself did the very same thing after going through a breakup.

And my ex is writing a book. She has a book that's going to come out. Less about it than my hour is. You're like, two of us can write a book. We literally had a cathartic moment where we get together all, you know, like every couple months to have like a serious hang. You know what I mean? Like we're going to cry a little hang.

Yeah. Holy crap. And she was like, I wrote some pages about the breakup. Do you want to see it? And I was like, yeah. And I read it. I was like, oh, this is good. You could change this or that.

You know, like, oh, when this happened, what if, you know, I remember this detail. She's like, oh, that's good. And then that gave me the courage to send her a recording. And she was like, oh, that was so great. But you know what? This is your closer. Yeah. That's not your closer.

And I was like, you're right. And it actually helped both the work and the breakup. Because our whole, she's like art therapy, really. It was. She's also a cartoon as a TV writer. And so anyway, as we were breaking up, she read the Miranda July book, All Fours. And I read it and I was like,

oh, this is what you're, this is literally what you're going through. Like, I'm understanding you better because this person has written this book. Who's written a book about it from my side? Like just, and I literally could not find one. And then I would go into bookstores. I went to like Skylight Books here

and all in all. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, are, what books are there about, like, sex or about, you know, like memoir about people's love lives or whatever from a male perspective? And the person, like, went and, like, looked in the catalog for 20 minutes and then brought me back Anthony Bourdain's first book, which is about him working in a restaurant. Like kitchen confidential. Yes, yes.

They're like, we don't have love. We have cocaine and fish. Kitchen Confidential. Which is a great book. Yeah, yeah. It's great. So is the idea kind of. like guys are not guys are going to write about like swords and like fish and stuff instead of like

what they're feeling emotionally yeah yeah well write about like war yeah science and technology right and shit like that you're like what about love yeah or what about uh there's a line i have in the book proposal that's something like you know men will do anything to try to get people to fuck us but we will do anything not to think about why we want to fuck yeah in the first place yeah and so i'm just interested in exploring that yeah i've been working Working on the work, again, quotation works, we're in the proposal for a year, mostly because the special was also about that

and I had to finish it first and now sort of coming back around to it. Do you feel like you're gonna, is it, is the special gonna, is some of that content gonna go book mode or are you gonna explore a different? Yeah, I think it'll be like a starting point or whatever, you know, but it's, I mean,

stand-up is so specific to. It's so good. You guys both do stand-up. Yeah, we're addicted to it. Love it. Love it. Yeah. Actually, we're having a thing right now

where Charlie's, Charlie went through a breakup, and has all this material about it and was doing it for like a year. And then I went through a breakup and started doing material about it. And now it's like our, when we go on tour together, it's like the whole show.

And it's like, actually we're like laughing each other. And like someone needs to go through something new. Like soon to, which is good. You're like, yeah, it was like me.

It was like the end of my era of doing that material. And also we were like coming up with a lot of the same stuff. Yeah. It was like so, you know, we went through breakup.

We're drinking a lot more than we used to be. And like there were, would be shows where it would be like one for one. Yes, the same points. But then having different perspectives on it. Of course. You were you guys talking about what, like, what are your perspectives? I was talking about hooking up, doing gay guy hooking up lifestyle,

kind of what that was like, you know, the ways that that was like feeling fun, but also feeling monstrous and insane and like, the kind of... The thing about the guys, like you invite someone over and then they're like, you're like, yeah, come over. You did. Oh, yeah. This thing of like how when you talk to people online on like a sex app, you just say the craziest fucking shit. And then all of a sudden someone's like, hey, I'm downstairs.

And you're like, what the fuck? Because you invited them. Because you invited them. Like, go out of here. And then you have to like have someone in your apartment and like show them around and be like, yeah. So this is my fucking stuff. Like my life. Yeah.

Because all of the, all of reality suddenly. Yeah. In the text, you're just... It's like you don't exist, basically. It's like you're so fake. Everything is so like kind of ephemeral. And then like all of a sudden you like, like they appear at your thresholds. And you're like, I birthed you basically.

Like this is disgusting. Like I made you exist. I like called you into existence. It's like, it's like no star atu. Mm-hmm. This is why sexting is like kind of the best form of sex. Oh, it's awesome. Like because you can just focus on the horny part, you know, the part that gets...

There's never like a... Like the horniest I've ever been in my life. Like when I think of like particularly horny moments, it's often like sexting at the airport. It's just like suddenly somehow it's like it blinds up. So think about the pressure change on the plane. Yeah, exactly. You're just like, holy shit. It's like a pump.

You're sobbing in your heart as balls. The thing is, and that's on here, by the way. I just read that. Right. The thing also is, though, I think about sexing. It's like the reason you can reach such a horny fever sexting is because because there's like basically not as much satisfaction. There's something to cool it down.

You know what I mean? It's like gooning. It's like you're just like fully. It's actually kind of worse. But the life force behind it is is cool. And it's like culminating does does subtract life force and energy. Well, let me bring it back to the experience of having a TV show. It's like the same thing where it's like, go there.

If you're in entertainment, you want something so bad. and then you get it. Sometimes there is the same thing of like, as when you want sex really bad and then you get it, where sometimes you're like, wow, I almost miss wanting it. You know what I mean?

Like you're like the want, it's like getting a desire fulfilled can sometimes be one of like the worst things that can happen to you because desire at least is like orienting. It like points you towards something. And then not wanting anything is like, can feel kind of lifeless and impotent. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And so it's, yeah, it's like, Like I feel like there are times I think about like the big version of this in my life was like all through high school I wanted to get into college so bad and I wanted to get into like

the hardest schools to get into and I really... Spoiler alert. He did. I tore that shit. And then I did and was like, what the fuck? And then was so depressed for like years. Because I like hadn't, well first of all it's like I didn't really want anything after that.

But then... Of course. It's like I wanted this thing and then I got it and you're happy for like literally like an hour. And then you're like, um, shoot. I still don't have a. boyfriend. Fuck.

So caution to the tail. You didn't. But going to the college wasn't a... He had a major letdown. I had a major letdown. Completely natural. I didn't really like it like that. You don't know about that.

No, I do. I've had the experience a couple times of doing a big creative project. And then I forget to give myself like a celebration at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when we made the G word,

the Netflix show, because it was during the pandemic. We did like a screening at Netflix, but that was like, that screening itself was kind of a letdown because it was like, we can tell this is not like the most important show. So it was like on a Tuesday.

It was in like their small screening. You know what I mean? It was nice. It was a good event, right? Rets came, whatever. Right. And then a couple weeks went by after the premiere and I said to my other guys

who had been working on over a couple of years, I was like, we should have thrown our own screening. Yeah. We should have rented a theater and invited our friends. Like, why didn't we do that? Yeah.

Yeah. Should I had like a big dinner and gotten like fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. No, literally, I actually think it's like, you can be kind of a little bit more intentional about it. Yeah, you have to do it for yourself. Wait, this was cool.

Like, this was cool. We did a thing. We finished it. Yeah, that was hard. Celebrate the wins. Celebrate the wins. No one will do it for you. You're sort of imagining that people are going to throw you a parade.

That's so true. That's in my vision of stuff. And it's like, you really have to be like, no, no, no. Yeah. Hi, guys. Like, this was cool that we did this. Right. Like a birthday.

It's like a birthday. You have to throw your own party. You basically do have to throw your own party. You know, life insurance is like a parachute. If you don't have it the first time you need it, there's no second chance. And for over 40 years, SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted brokers in insurance, helping more than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their mission is simple to find you the right insurance policy for your unique needs.

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will call you right away with the right policy for your life and your budget. Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Select quote, they shop, you save. Any of those questions speak to you? Aha. Well, it says, what is your first sexual experience?

Really? Yeah. Does it say that? Of course. Wow. No, it says, What are you listening to or watching right now? I say that.

And then it says porn-wise. Wow. I mean, your question is so much. much better than the one that Sam wrote. No, okay. What made you guys work so well together? You didn't even write these. You don't even know that we work together, though we do.

Or at least wanting to keep talking to each other. Well, I'll tell you, Adam. Yeah, yeah. I'm like Adam, right? Coming right up. Basically, you know what? We do work really well together. And we honestly have, well, we have amazing communication.

We're extremely honest with each other. We have often all little types of maintenance talks about. how we're feeling about how we handle each other. It's awesome. It's one of them more communicative relationships in my life. And therefore it's extremely meaningful. Yeah. Do you need this back?

No, I don't need it at all. I'm listening to what you're saying. Did I look like I was lacking it? You weren't effing saying anything. I was thinking about what you were saying. How do you balance that something that has always been a challenge for me is how do you balance an intimate friend relationship where you have emotional,

I assume you have some amount of emotional investment in each other, right? No, not at all. Not really. Oh, sorry, no. I was doing a joke. Yeah, we don't. With a business relationship.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a lot is part on this one relationship. Yeah, how do we do that? I have an answer. Yeah. First of all, we were, we, we met, right after we met, we started hosting a show together. So this was always like in the DNA of our friendship.

Yeah, that's true. You know, like we were always working together. So there's not like, I feel like that is a helpful thing for like, like, it's not like, before we work together, it was like this. And then after it was like this. It's like always been like part of how we like got close and got to know each other. And then it means we actually have a whole world of stuff that we talk about that is ours, that it isn't shared.

Like all the stuff we do together. Yeah. We have, we're like, that's like for us to talk about. Yeah. Like we try and keep things private. Natalie's really, this is like, I credit Natalie so much with this. Like when we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, We were starting the podcast.

Hold on. I, like, my instinct was like, let me just give everything to this to make this work. As in, let me, like, be as public as I can about my life. Let me be as open and salacious. And Natalie really smartly was like, I don't think we should do that. I actually think we should, like, keep some stuff for us and that will make this way more sustainable. And she was completely right. And it means that, and actually, this is, like, way more open than we are.

on our podcast. Oh, this conversation? Yeah, way more. Okay, so what are some of those things that you keep just for you? Well, girl. Wouldn't you like to know? All right, we can tell Adam

about the hot tub. Yeah. Just because we're here. Okay, I mean, that was a joke question, but please do tell me. We'll put the hot tub. Well, we're joking, too, about the hot tub then. Oh, no.

What about the hot tub? What about the hot tub? Okay, okay, like two or three years ago, we were on tour, we were in Minneapolis. It was like, by the way, the kind of thing. You're going to love this. Guys love this thing about weather.

Go ahead, tell them. No, I'm not kidding. No, it's true. It was negative 20 degrees. Actually, negative 20 degrees. Actually, negative 20 degrees.

Yeah, but the reason she's saying that is because the whole time I was like, this is so cool. It's a negative 20. And it was like, yeah, it's really fucking cold. And I was like, I was just a miss. I was like, oh, it's just a negative 21. I do pop for like really cold. How could you?

I mean, come on. How could you not? I was like, have you ever been anywhere this cold? I grew up on Long Island. Oh, really? Where in Long Island? Suffolk County. Talking about Waiting River, pretty far east.

Okay. Waiting River. What's near there? Rocky Point. Shoreham was the other town really close to us. Like, take the train out, you had to go to Ron Conkama and then drive half an hour. I know about Ron Conkama. She's a louis.

Roncuncama. Ranckema. I used to a comedy character named Ron Conkama. New York City tour guy. Ronkankma. I'm loving what I'm hearing about these olden days. Yeah. But you know what we should bring him back?

We should bring back the old days. Finally, someone said it. I knew it. But I love when it get, I'm on record as saying 30s, horrible temperatures. I agree. Yeah. It's wet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But like, give me 20 degrees and bright and sunny. Yes. So much better. This is a thing about New York winter that often is very nice compared with like a European winter. Not that I know that much about that. Oh, yeah, exactly. But it's often really sunny. And I love, I agree.

I love like bright. freezing. And often this winter at least, it was so cold, but it was often totally sunny and gorgeous. You're like, I'm invigorated. Yeah, exactly. You're like, ha-ha, let's take a nice long walk in the cold. You're in Minneapolis. So we were in Minneapolis. We specifically,

before we knew about the weather, when we booked the tour, we were like, we want a Airbnb or a hotel that has a hot tub. Like, we want that, that's our vision. We did it. The hot tub was outdoors in Minneapolis. But there was kind of the punchline of the stories that this was like almost arbitrarily a thing we decided to keep for ourselves, right?

That's right. There's not too much to it. That's right. It's so funny when you're telling a story and you get close enough to the end that you can eyeball it and you're like, there's not that much there. I actually need to tell you guys something.

I forgot. It's a little bit smaller than we kind of thought. Let's actually change the pace on this. Basically, we got into the hot tub and it was kind of like bath temperature and we like kind of. We got really high.

We put our bodies like crabs and we kind of held hands on either side and made a circle in the hot tub and we were kind of a whirlpool spinning and we were doing this tour where we were you know our show was about nothing right like we just say whatever the fucking crap right so really it's like we and we were doing this tour especially it was like literally like six cities six nights often two shows a night yes and nothing was happening to us except for like driving taking the plane so it's like the airport's crazy it was like shut up but also what was to me it was so cute is like what i always say it's like really we were

like sleeping together in the same bed. Yeah. And like we would share like, oh, sorry, it didn't mean sleeping together. There's kind of, there's sexualities. Our sexualities line up in this crazy way where it's never going to happen. That's too bad. Charlie's gay. I'm gay.

Just is how things shook out. It's hard to explain it. It's like you don't know about that. But you know what? That's not the only reason. We're friends. No, I think it would. Yeah, I agree.

Because it could happen. It could happen. I agree. And actually, well, it never mind. It shouldn't, it shouldn't, it shouldn't just happen because you're gay. No, no, no, it's because, yes. It's because we're friends. So like that, for example.

We're not always getting into that on our show. Exactly. But we, anyway, we decided in the hot tub, we were like, we're not going to tell the audience about this. Like, yes, it was like that. This was so fun and like so memorable. But that was like, it was freezing. Our hair was freezing cold. We needed things to talk about.

And that was so, it would have been food for days. Yeah. Shows beyond your wildest dreams. We could have talked about the hot tub. And yet right now, you're like, this. is barely a story. Exactly. Why did you think it was food for days?

I'll tell you why, Adam, because the truth is, it would have been a very fertile jumping off point. That's right. That's all we need. For what? Awesome combo, girlfriend, like we're having right now. Okay, got it. Think about how the hot tub has let us down these amazing pads.

Like, we're talking about it. For example, now we're talking about what we're talking about. Yeah. Completely rich and totally invigorating. So how are you? Is this what it's like to do a funny podcast? I don't know. Yeah. Are you feeling happy?

What I'm saying too about like Chad? You kind of asked in the beginning. Who's Chad? I didn't want to be like so rude to us but it also or our audience but it can be a low bar. As in people often just want like people to hang out with. Yeah. That are like kind of warm. Or like voices in the other room.

Voices in the other room. Oh yeah. We're kind of doing like ASMR like your friends are should go home because they're tired but they won't. Yes. And you're like doing dishes like can you? guys go? Yeah, exactly. And we're like, why, why when you're like, you know, when you're like, you're

like, hey, why am I even texting you? Yeah. And everyone's like, I know. It's like so crazy. You both are like manipulating your eye socket in this very, right. Manipulating the socket. That's right. Well, it's a very physical job to be a podcaster.

Yeah. You know it? Of course. Everybody knows it. Look, it's like, it's physically taxing. What is it normally like on here? It's very, it's like really. It's like expert.

Yes, it's really serious. It's like, so tell me about antitrust reform. Are you for real? Yeah. Well, I could tell you that. Why don't you ask us some of your questions? Yeah, ask us some of the other. Don't do those.

Do the ones for another guest. Oh, do the ones for, do the ones for another guest. Yeah. Let's just like, we'll see if we can do it. That's right. Okay. So, you know, we sort of like all went through this period. We all like no monopolies in America are like bad.

We're sort of like taught that like Petty Rose. those like the trust buster. And then just... Alphabet, too. At some point, we just stopped like enforcing antitrust at all. Like, this sort of like legal revolution.

Like, what led to that? I'll tell you what it was. Yeah. I think it was a cascading impact of conservative judges. Don't you think that might be true? That's, we'll go on. Like Bush or whatever.

getting in there like putting in his judges that lasts for so long it's like appointed appointed appointed then there's all these judges who are kind of conservative and they stay forever come on Adam is that good

that is a good portion of it I'm curious if there's a more specific answer than the kind of banal answer of like a slow dismantling of the regulatory state that's also the answer but here's the other thing I would say it's kind of flip it to a positive note

aren't there a few people now I mean, people were excited about Lena Khan, like she was kind of antitrust, didn't way. If Lena Khan has reached you guys, then we're in good shape. She's washed. She's the new antitrust Yeah, she's the like antitrust superhero or whatever. But actually...

She's been on the show like two or three times. That's true? Mm-hmm. Really? Oh my God. That's the caliber. I know. What are you doing with us? I feel like this is a huge like problem. Like, sorry y'all. Can I tell you something kind of humiliated? Sure. See. I have, I, I'm was taking a

Hollywood meeting with some very nice guys about like a project we could work on together I was talking about what I like to do on this show I have other stuff I want to do but all the guys got together

political topical work and then we had a follow-up meeting and in the follow-up meeting they were like so you're kind of like the new generation's Bill Marr so you're kind of like Bill Mar and I was like

I was like yes but I hate that I mean that is horrible I was like let's find one maybe there's another guys I know I could say That is not nice

But that is kind of the thing A little bit It's like comedy Adjacent about the issues Of course right Well someone recently John Stewart even Thank you

Like isn't that a little bit Like better than Oh yeah That was Although it's like I get why Bill Maher Is really like formally Like the shape of what you do

It's like similar to him I mean I was on Bill Mar Really? Yeah I was like You're so Hollywood It was the most people, the most emails and texts

I ever got from friends and family appearing on anything was when I was on Bill Maher. I was on Colbert twice and Bill Maher people just Wow. The Marheads. I have some friends in my life where it's like one of their big projects is to kind of get their parents off of Bill Maher.

What's the problem when he's like so smug? He's so smug. He's very like Islamophobic. He's so like smugly anti-religion but then also is like crazy Zionist. Well he's also He's also really gone conservative but won't admit it. Yeah.

And did you see this clip of him with David Cross? I actually couldn't even watch it because people are like, it's so cringy and I was like, I don't want. David Cross, like. Yeah. From Mr. Show. So Bill Marr's talking to David Cross and he's saying like, David Cross is saying, my kids know trans kids. Like they're friends with trans kids. And Bill's like, how do they know they're eight?

Oh, they're eight. Like an eight year old's never been wrong about anything. And then David Cross is like, no, this is. real they're just they're just like they've transitioned and like their parents are buying them pants or dresses it's not a big deal and bill's like well you're why we lost the election because because americans can't handle this and i was watching going like first of all bill more famously has no kids right he's he's uh he's like a 65 year old single man yeah and then for him to act like he's representing uh mainstream america when he's like smoking pot

indoors wearing sunglasses. Literally he's always him and his little fucking sunglasses. He looks so weird. He's a freak, be a freak man. Join the freak side. Right. He needs to be like what's his name?

I'm like, I want to call him Hudson Yards. You want to call him Hudson Yards? Yeah, but you'll see. Thank you. You are literally you are never letting me down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the Hudson Howard.

And like if you're going to be a freak, be a freak, you know? Yeah, Howard Stern kind of lets himself. And I actually like Howard, even though Howard Stern has often been like, boorish or wrong or whatever, like there's something kind of,

there's a little bit more humility there. Whereas Bill Maher in his affect is just so smug. It's horrible. It just is so unpleasant to listen to. He's narrowed and Stern has become sort of older and wise. If you watch early Stern,

he's like disgusting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, oh my God. Who do you? even listen to this. Yeah. Like the very early, like the early 80s stuff.

Yeah. But now he's like, oh, I'm like, magnanimous and like, yeah, yeah. It's a broader perspective. And Bill has like gotten like, yeah,

small. We have to not like that happens to us. And having this like grievance politic, right? Like this personal grievance about everything, which is so unpleasant to be around and listen to. But then also I'm like, never I'm like, yeah, it's so unpleasant and awful to listen to.

And then the other thing I'm saying is like he couldn't be more popular. So it's like, guess I'm wrong, huh? Yeah. I guess people love it or people do, I think, like to feel that. I just think it's, like, poisonous. I do think the best thing about Bill is that when I was on the show, I forget what he said. He said something that was so fucking stupid that me and the conservative, like, columnist and the governor, whoever, the other two people on the show, all three of us went, Bill, no.

What are you? What? That's cool. And we, like, all berated it. And he was like, eh. And to do that on your own show. to like allow your guests. It's such a wide array of opinions.

And that's what David Cross does on his podcast. He's like, no, Bill, what do you, what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was on David's podcast or he was on David's podcast. He was on David Cross is on Bill Maher's podcast. Okay, yeah, yeah. Which is where they smoke pot on the air. I see.

And it's like, so it's like. Oh, he's a legend. Holy shit. Despite what we've said. It's like, I take back what I said. I didn't know he had a like that. Come on. All right, brother.

Bring it. That's like, that's like his. liberal bona fides that he smoked. Yeah, right, right. And it's like, by the way, now you get it at like a maximum security, like, store. Literally. Check your back. Check your ID.

Yeah, I don't think we anticipated that like in the 90s, I wouldn't have guessed that like Republicans would be the biggest drug users in America where they're just all on like Trump moms are like doing ketamine and. Well, the reformation. I don't really know that much about it, but like it's interesting to watch as like certain political issues get like kind of crosswired in interesting ways. It's like the food politic right now is really odd.

Yeah, right. Like American food politic where it's like, like somehow right wing people took it on like the RFK Jr. Like healthy food thing. And so it has this really weird kind of war. Like they have this really weird warp take on it. But then it's like, wait, wait. Like why did Democrats in the left like seed control over like food,

the idea of like food system justice to the right? Like that's such an odd. choice of them. They be seeding. They just seeded. Don't you think? They do be seating. Left and right.

The Democrats like, holy crap. They're like, you know what? Just take it. Whatever. Okay. Actually, never. I don't care about that. Right.

No, you know what? It's like, what about fight for one fucking second. It's so true. They're like, I'm going to talk to that company. Hold on. You know what? You know what?

You know what I don't know. I don't need to talk to them. I got to like trans kids. They're like, You can't, whatever. Like, just saying it.

I don't care. You know what? And you're right. Like, whatever. Shut up. Let's take our break. Yeah,

exactly. Like you. Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer on my cat. Yeah. What's something very serious you guys care about? Serious topic. Oh,

yeah. If you did a really serious, if you did a really serious interview podcast, like one. Well, that people don't listen to. Mm-hmm. A really serious thing.

Well, something that I've like, like, just this is the thing. that has caused me internal tension because I often in the past few years have wanted to talk about it but don't have a funny way of talking about it but then also not talking about it feels odd

which is like Zionism and Palestine like that has been the like genocide and Palestine has been so disturbing to me I'm Jewish and it's really really upsetting and it's like we've talked about it but like I don't know and don't feel like it's right to make it funny but then also

like doing a lip service thing has felt really odd and so that's a thing that like I would love to have like but I also don't think I have anything like particularly insightful to say about it beyond what I think the ways that a lot of people are reading I'll say that one too it's true we kind of like it's like so much of the kind of like ethos of our show is kind of being these like you know like New York Jewish people and we like have this kind of like I don't know it feels like relevant to our to our like

comedy even though we do this like chat podcast and then it's like I feel like sometimes I yeah we do kind of like stop just to be like hey like so we like we are not Jewish people who support Israel or like you know and it's like it does feel like it's we don't really know how to get it in there but also like don't want to be misunderstood and also like that it doesn't really matter yeah you kind of have to confront this thing right of like well what What's my, you know, what's a way that I can kind of contribute here, like use the platform in a way that's constructive, but also not like, it's much like how you're talking about how people don't know you about for stand-up. You know what I mean? It's like, you can be like a political comedian and then your audience is like, oh, this is kind of what you do.

Like this is, that's not what we. I felt very lucky in some ways when, when, you know, after October 7th, you know, soon afterwards. because I could have guests on Let's get into it And I can be in that moment the host And I'm not Jewish right It's not something that I Foreign policy is kind of a little bit of a blind spot for me

Just anything happening in other countries Not okay Not my number one thing I know the most about But I can have someone on and be like Tell me about what the fuck is happening And we did three or four episodes that way Where I'm like okay now I've People got something out of it

And I can feel like I did some justice to it without having to I saw a lot of friends who were upset about it didn't have any outlet and just would sort of spin around in circles of you know. And then you kind of start thinking that like Instagram

is where this is going down and it's like this isn't where this is happening. You know like this isn't the fight. That is one of the weirdest things that people think is that Instagram posting on Instagram is important in any way. I literally did when I had that first podcast episode come out. Yeah.

I was like, because so many people were posting about it, I was like, hey, guys, I did a podcast episode about this. I don't think I really have much of it on Instagram. You can go watch the podcast episode. And I had people in the comments going like,

this ain't it, chief, you got to post on Instagram. I was like, no. Why would? Right, right. Like this kind of shallow, like, yeah. I mean, it's funny because often it is just truly signaling.

It's being like, hi, this is what I think. And like, kind of like getting like a pass for like whatever. But that's also a weird thing where it's like I feel like there's there's also like I feel like so much stuff that you would post about is like stuff that is kind of, what am I going to say? Basically I feel like there's there there are randomly stakes for some people for like being anti-Zionist online. And then it's like also No, I had friends lose their reps For going add to story About just news stuff

Yeah, in a way where it's like, you know That's a good place to I don't know It's like I feel like sometimes it can be like A very straightforward way To just be like well this is I'm with this group by the way Like something really quick and simple

There's a point to that but like No it's not What you are like writing on the wall of Mark Zuckerberg's prison is not political action fundamentally. You want to say, okay, here's my little thing or whatever. But I was like, I'm going to direct people to an hour-long conversation I'm having

with a scholar who lives in Jerusalem who lives this shit. And I think that's going to be enough. Or I think that's more productive. The only other time that it felt useful was when it would be like, there's an event happening. Like there's a protest. Like it's like so this is a thing.

Yeah. Yeah. You can spread the word. Right. But I also had friends who, like, would clearly spend all day going add to story. Yeah. And at some point, you know, if I was a little closer, I'd be like, are you okay? Yeah.

Like, I'm a little worried for. Right. I mean, you totally understand, right? Because it's like, oh, my God, you're so angry in this righteous way, which is understandable, right? But also, it's like, this is not helping you and it's not really helping anyone. Because also once you do that at a certain point, it's like the Instagram Instagram algorithm really filters out. Like who gets to see that? You know what I mean?

It's like you so rarely. And I mean, I experienced this. Like I would post about stuff not all the time, but I would post. And like in the years I posted, I got like two mean comments back. And I was like, yeah. So whatever I'm doing is not really reaching anyone who's like not seeing it. Or it did like right at the beginning. Like there were a few people who would respond.

And then like pretty quickly, I was like, all right, once you kind of make that claim of like, this is where I stand, it's like you get muted or filtered, period. There's a lot of value in Rebecca Salon that wrote this wonderful essay called preaching to the choir about like, why is it bad to preach to the choir? The choir is the people who are listening to the sermon and you could adjust their behavior, right? There is shit that you might want to tell the people on your side. Right. But when it's the most internet posting is not that, it's like. aimed at people who are not following or not here. Or so that that it's also like it's, you know, snake eats tail,

like discursive policing about language and like, talking to people where it's like, it's like actually this is definitely not action. That's when people are like bringing the war home to like the online space, like trying to fight it out there. It's like that's, you know, it's not, it's not, it's not political. action for the most part. And I also think we have,

the world is so fucked up. People are not, we need to get a little bit better at separating how fucked up the world is from like our own mental states. Like we get so wrapped up in it where like the horrible thing happening. Like you feel bad and you connect the things together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

At some point you got to go, okay, bad things are happening. Also, what can I do to help myself feel a little bit better today, you know, because I'm not helping that situation. All I can really help is myself. you know sometimes. Yeah. Well, there's a like, never mind,

I lost it. When else go? But I will have it. Really? Yeah, wait, let me see if I can get it. You got it. Come on,

just talk it out. What are you saying? It's like that, like you can only, sometimes you can only help yourself. Separate your mental state from the world. Yeah.

Try to take a walk once in a while, right? That's what you're wrong with that. I feel it. No, no. No, no. Please. No, no, go. Well, I feel like,

like specifically around. Israel, Palestine, like that I felt like there have been times where I'm like reading the news, like feeling just like this like, you know, like so such like sadness and and like despair. And then like being and feeling like so far, so removed, so disconnected from like what could ever, what this is such a, you're like, oh my God, like that we're so like powerless against this, whatever, and then you go online and like see someone and I went to a Jewish school growing up. So I like have a lot of people in my life who are like really Zionists and like seeing them post stuff that I think is like so dehumanizing and cruel or whatever. And it's like I, I feel like

in those moments I was like, oh, there's my enemy. You know what I mean? Like I and it felt like I want to like unleash all of my hatred and like upset on this person. because this is exactly the thing that allows the American Imperialist project to support their little outpost over there which is like it's not not true but it's also not you know and then I'm like fighting with like

you know random people from my high school and my DMs and it's like that I think is a confusing moment of like that the like interpersonally fighting you're like there actually is a really worthy enemy and you are on these other sides but like

fighting in DMs is like it's not not ultimately, like I stopped doing that. Yeah. It just was like, it's like, this is not working. Yeah. Just like as a tactic, it's not working. And like to what you're saying of like my, there's like an interpersonal part of this.

It's like not that you can't like say your opinion or whatever, but like, or like try and like really have a combo with someone about it. But like that there's, it was, I was needing it to do a different thing, which is like, be action. Be something like real and good. Yeah. Right. I mean, this is, you, are you so feel it. Like, then this is, I've tried to take space off of Twitter, which I, like, have mostly failed at doing

because you can really just get so, like, wrapped up in, like, the negative affect on there. And just, like, the, like, all the anger, and you just, like, really take it on. And it's, like, this is not a good way to be. Yeah. And it's not doing anything. So, like, this is only,

the only thing this is doing is making me upset, actually. And it probably makes you, like, less likely to do anything. Because you're like, I'm so tired of feeling shitty all the time that you just kind of like, there have definitely been times in my life where it's like I've way overdone how like angry I get all the time. And then we'll just completely like kind of, you know, short circuit and be like totally apathetic for a while because I'm like, yeah, it's nothing. Like all of that anger I felt was totally like impotent. And so what's the point of it? You know what I mean? Yeah.

I mean, it's the the platform. are so, this is not a new observation, they're so designed to get you to block out everything else and make you feel like that's the only thing that's important. And like it's a little bit important. I make my living on these platforms. We're gonna be on a bunch of them right now.

People are watching this stuff. Hey-oh! What's up? Wow, we haven't forgotten. But like ultimately, you know, we do live in the real world. And like, you know, and that's where the richness of experience is.

And that's also where you have like most of your efficacy, you know, and the thing that you can do is always somewhere around you. Like, what were you saying about, like, seeing a person from your life and going, that's my enemy? There's something right and there's something wrong about it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, because it's like, that's my home turf. Yeah. I mean, it wouldn't, I think even in person, it could be more. In person, sure. Real. Yeah. But then in person, it's quiet. No, really, you know, like when I go to these things with these people, it's like, Everyone's like, eh.

Do they know that you're like? Yeah. Wow. I didn't realize that that's part of the social like, like, it's like you're going to like a friend's wedding and it's kind of like there's like an uneasy detaunt of like we're not going to talk about this thing. Yeah. Sometimes.

Yeah. That's interesting. But then I feel it's kind of cowardly that it's like, what a convenient detain for me. Right. Right. I don't know because. Because like I sometimes I feel that the. the thing I learned in union work is like all we have is like the organic bonds between people.

Like that is like the most powerful social force like all organizing is like based on the bonds between people. And so sometimes it is important to maintain the bond with a person even though you disagree about the like sometimes I'm like the best thing you can be is just continue to be in someone's life. And to have a different. Yeah. Yeah. Like, rather than cut them off or whatever, you know, be like, oh, yeah, this, I love this person and they feel this way. So are you just, are you WGA organizer guy? Yeah, I'm on the board of the guild.

Oh, what in the heck? Sorry. What do you mean sorry? Well, I didn't bring it up earlier. Well, you're writing for a show. If you have any guild questions, you can come to me. Oh, show. I love my guilds.

Good. I do. Thank you. I'm glad. That's, well, you're, because you're a part of it, you know. And like, okay. So, and my point being is like, if we need to do something as a guild, right now we know each other. And someone's like, oh, does someone know Natalie?

Because like we're trying to get people on this show. We want someone really cool. I can call you up. Yeah, exactly. Right. Well, we know each other. We have this whole conversation about all these issues. And now we have like a real bond and we have a real sense of trust.

That's right. And you know you can call me at any time and I will help your guild. And at the end of the day, that's all we have. And maybe if there's something that divides us, right, maybe there's some issue that comes up in the call of five years where we're on the other, we're on the opposite sides of the thing. The fact that we know each other and we still have the bond is power, right, for to work it out. Right. And so I think that when people say, I'm going to argue online, well, now you're not using the real social bond. When we cut each other off, we're removing ourselves from it.

But like, you know, just like sitting in it and being like, yeah, there's a real disagreement here that we both feel really strongly about. But, you know, so like a lot of times with issues, I'm like when someone surprises me with their position on something, I'm like, I don't know what environment they grew up in. I don't know what their family's like. I don't know what school they went to. You know what I mean? I know that we have a connection still. And so we can talk about it now, hopefully. but I'm not going to, I don't know.

That's sort of the best that we can do. Sure. Yeah. And usually, whatever, it's like, it's helpful. We had a guest once, like, I invited her who said this thing on the podcast that was like, like often in maybe contemporary world and discourse, not only are people like wanting to die on hills, but also you are assuming that everybody else wants to die on their hill. And actually really often what happens. in conversation is like that assumption then becomes mutual and then becomes entrenched

whereas often people have an opinion and someone is like really like that's that's what you think and it's like well yeah that's what I thought but I'm open you know what I mean like actually you can kind of leave an opening to being like oh like let's kind of assume that a lot of these opinions are dynamic hills that you would kind of walk back down hills that you would walk back down yeah and like I don't know Spike made that

kind of analogy and I was like I do like that and it was helpful for me as well to name for myself. Like when am I staking a position out of like a pride of like not wanting to be wrong? And when am I staking a position because I really believe in it. It's like sometimes it feels really awkward to walk down the hill. Yeah. You look stupid when you're walking downhill. That is that is good. Right. You're like, oh, you know, you're kind of like, excuse me, sorry. Yeah. You kind of get this awkward momentum. Everybody's looking at your like, but whatever. Yeah. I mean, I try to practice sometimes not having opinions on things or to hold my opinion loosely.

And there's a big, you know, online there's a big pressure towards like staking the thing that you think and like defending it and like what's your, when there's a conflict between two people, I so love to be team no one. Yeah. When you, oh, team no one. Oh, man, there's something. That's messy, you know. You know, usually with a conflict, you can kind of look at it and be like, I get where

you guys are coming from. Like I get why that feels like that and I get why that feels like that for you. And usually it's like, yeah, everybody's, everybody's a little bit right. To feel upset or sometimes not. But, you know, really often, the helpful like interpersonal skill. I mean, think about us today. Yeah. Completely at odds.

And yet we each have a good point. Well, you're talking about doing justice to people's emotional truth, which is something I try to do. Like, you can't argue with how somebody feels and like everybody feels the way that they feel for not a good reason, but a reason. A reason. Also, you're not really going to win an argument just on logos. You know what I mean? What's this?

Like the Greek thing of like logic? You know, people are so so hurt. I think you got it. You got the right guy right here. I know. I'm just trying to like impress them. I'm like logos. Well, Tony, guys, logos.

Sorry. I was trying to say Adam. I'm holding up. Sonic is. I think I don't know what happened. I'm honestly getting hungry. But I do learn to say something. We need a snack.

Someone needs a snack. We fly in a banana. So what? Yeah. What was it? Talking about interpersonal. Well, I could bring them back to in. That's a thing I feel like we practice in our relationship.

We're often on real. Like, you know, we'll have these conflicts of like, I think the show should be $25. I think the show should be $20. And it's like, really to get to that, you often do have to be like, start to be like, well, let's think a little bit. Where are you coming from? Yeah. And then also sometimes you have to just be okay with like. It's like, I don't want to be someone who like.

Yeah, exactly. It's like, whoa. Right. This got big. Right. We're right. Actually, there's these big things attached to it. And also to make that work, sometimes you just have to be like, all right, I'm actually

just going to seed this one and just kind of assume that like if we make a pattern of like sometimes you just totally see. That's something we'll do a lot. Is it like, we'll say like, what do you want to do this or this? And it's like we each want to do different things. Yeah. Then we check in with like, how much do you care. Right.

Right, right. It's like, I really care a lot, and they want to do one thing. And someone's like, I don't care that much. And when we both care a lot, it's like, fuck, all right, we'll figure it out. But when it's like, so cute, we sound married. But I want to say something about housewives. Yeah. I've waited the whole time.

Talk about something fun. No, no, this is real still. Oh, okay. You wish. God damn it. I'm like, you don't get it at all of it. No, just to say that what you're saying about, like, trying to understand people's emotional truth.

It's like something I feel really when I'm watching this show is like, the big part of it is these women acting so like ridiculously, you know, like overreacting to each other and, you know, like throwing wine and like seeming, just like seeming really stupid and weird. And then when you like really think about the context of whatever's happening in their life at that point, which is like, you know, like oppressive cheating rumors, you know, like the husband won't look at them. And then and then you see them throw the wine at some other girl for like shading her like, you know, shawl company or whatever. And it's like, you know, you know, shawl company or whatever. And it's like. And it's like. Like, people are in so much pain. Yeah. Like, people are so hurting so, so, so hard. Yeah. It, like, moves me so much. Like, when I'm like, oh, my God, like, these, it's like the show you're just

seeing these women, like, act out in these, like, ridiculous ways. This, like, and sometimes a lot of the time, it's, like, decades of, like, you know, gender neglect. You know, like, they're just, like, completely, like, ignored, maligned. they were this like hot young thing. Like a shelter dogs. Yes, really. Like living large, you know. But that's like the odd thing.

Shelter dogs with visa cards. Right. Exactly. Shelter dogs with visa cards. It's like the whole shelter at. Might be I am back. This is like this. The whole shelter gets adopted at their like peak age of sexual fertility. Yeah. Right. Due to that. And then they become old dogs. Right. So you still live with whatever person adopted them. But they're not. even liked anymore.

Right. Then they fight each other. Right. Because they're just like... I love them though. And I don't mean to call them dogs. You did that actually. You made this...

I did not do that. True. True. Okay. Hoisted by my own partard. And I'm in by... You know, I get where both of you are coming from. Team no one.

I'm team no one here. I get why you want to call them dogs. You don't have any allegiance to me. You make this show sound like the saddest show I've ever... It's heartbreaking. Yeah. It's better than anything, though. You should hear it.

We do a segment on our podcast on our Patreon. Let's plug that. Plug that. Where we call it the great tradition of oral storytelling. And basically what that is is we will just retell each other like things we've seen. So it's like Natalie will be like, okay, this is the like plot line of this one woman from Real Housewives of Miami season six. And like we'll just tell it as a story in like the tradition of Homer. Wow.

And it's amazing. First of all, she's a very, very gifted storyteller. Yeah, she's very good. And so I'm just listening wrapped and it's like, it really... By the way, Charlie is fabulous as well. Right. I'm a great listener. Don't count him out.

It really, I think the last one was like, Real Housewives of Atlanta and the brothers caramazov from Charlie. And we're both like, oh my God, what? Why? Oh, my God. So then when did she go there? But by the way, once you strip away, like kind of the, the shape of it.

It's like as narratives, they were really similar. Identical, obviously. Yeah. As stories, it was like, yeah, these actually both. I'm like, so Catarina didn't even know that he wasn't even going to call to her. Yeah, exactly. Is that her name? Yeah, there's a catarina. Oh, I thought that was going to be a housewife. Exactly. Exactly.

See, there we know. By the way, these books, they're so like that. It's like literally in that book, it's like, she was like in love with him and he literally spurned her and he went to the other woman and she was so upset, but she wanted to maintain an appearance of dignity. And so that's why she posted his bail.

And you're literally like, gag. Most great artists like this, if you go to see an opera, like the plot of a whole opera, we'll be like somebody, fuck somebody else's wife without knowing that that was their wife.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then they all killed themselves. Right, literally. And it's the whole, and that's like four hours. They all killed themselves, right. And you're just, well, a lot of, like, story is, like,

is a way of, like, laundering in, like, ideas. You know what I mean? Like, that's such a thing. Like, if you are, like, a great big thinker and you want people to engage with your ideas like good luck just telling them you have to find like a conduit

that will make them want to hear it. Yes, Charlie. I 100% believe this. You did go to a good school. I know, I have like all the words. Yes, but he talks like that. And he's kept it up. No, no, you talk like this for me. But he wants to impress me too.

But that has seriously improved my writing or not even improved it but just made me understand the reason to write is you're like, why would you write a show? And it's like, you are trying to tell them about your ideas via what happens to the people and what they say. It's like that's just like stand up. I feel like we both like started doing stand up. And it's like your, the whole thing is just like telling your ideas.

You're like, don't you think that blah, blah, blah, blah, guys, don't you think it? Like you're really trying to communicate it. It's like when someone comes over to your house, they are. Yeah. And it's like doing that same thing. But being like, hey, do you want to give me? Yeah. Exactly.

And you're like, don't you see? I'm going to have to clip that. It was very visual. Yes. When a show is closely observed, that's a compliment. I give things in my head. I hope you watch that and be like, this is closely observed.

That's a very good, that's a good compliment. And it's because the thing I can tell what they've seen and what they're telling me about, like, it's because the show is going, you ever notice so clearly. Don't you hate it when? Exactly. And they're like kind of doing.

Yes, that is the way friends. That's the way friendship works. Yeah, exactly. No, that's so true. That's so true. Kisses do. Look, look, look, that. You guys should write a show about your own friendship.

It's really very compelling. Don't get us started, crazy ass. We're drowning in meetings on the idea. I mean, generals from here to infinity. Oh, generals. No, not general. No, no, no. The next one.

Oh, okay. Yeah. What's it? A meeting. I've never had one of those. Yeah. You have such great stuff. Don't worry.

Just hang in there. Oh, my God. Please don't stop. Just keep going. You're so good. As long as you like the work, then you like the work. It's been wonderful having you guys here. Thank you.

He loves being here. Me too. I feel honored to share the couch with that Lena Con. Oh, sorry. We did those interviews in New York. She's never been in Los Angeles. Who was on this couch? The idea of her like getting like barbecue and rice chicken bowl?

Who was on this couch? She is so. She's going to be the president. Like she's so laser focused. Senate at least. I feel like she's eyeball on it. Let's go Senate. Wyatt Senac,

who wrote Sonic. Wyatt. Yeah. Of course. Well, you're not the only bitch she went to UCB. Sure. We're all the way back at the beginning.

Yeah. Natalie has really robust UCB training. Of course. Yeah. Nothing like it. Harold. Honestly. Harold.

I didn't do that. I don't know how to bring stuff back. I'm telling. I leave it. I just say that's done. Not me. Where can people find, well, the show? Yeah, we have a podcast called Exploration Live.

Yeah. That would be a really good place to start. Oh, definitely. And then follow us on Instagram. And then, you know, maybe 10, 15, 20 years from now we'll have a show. If there's TV, if there's media, let's see what happens. I wouldn't count on it. We have a live show in New York.

When is this coming out? Next week. Oh, my God. Are you kidding me? Oh, my God. We should have talked about the conference culture. The contemporary culture. Yeah, you're right.

We talked about Bill Maher. No. I don't know. What's going on right now? We should talk about the contemporary culture. The Met Gala, the kind of opposing Met Gala that was in whatever. Okay. All right.

You know what? I'm glad we didn't do that. It's not our strength. We're alive at this moment on Earth. Isn't that all that matters? Exactly. The contemporary moment flows through us. We're vessels for it.

Yeah. We take in and we receive and we give. That's true. If you're looking to, you're wondering where to find us. You don't have to look far. We're all part of God consciousness. So look around.

We are in every blade of grass and every passing truck. Every baby's whale. Every baby's cry and every lover's kiss. You will find Charlie and Natalie. We are woven into that. Damn. We are with you at home right now. That said, we have a show at the Bell House.

We have a show. On June 20th. Oh, that's a real guess. Whatever. Just look it up. You guys, like, just figure out, the Bell House. I might be in New York then. I'm doing a show at Del Close Marathon, June 11th. Oh, cool.

At UCB. Oh, yeah. Del Close Marathon. DC Harold. Oh, what are you going to do for your show? It's Adam Conover and Friends. I'm just a stand-up showcase show. Oh, that's so funny.

Well, that's so funny. That makes me think of other people who just. stand up. I'm like, that's amazing. Let me know if you need us to send. So you're saying about our relationship that we are. What? Friends.

Because his name is the shows. Adam Collins. Yes. Oh, my God. We're not friends. Well, even though this podcast was just chatting. We became friends. That was the narrative arc.

Hello. Yeah. I mean of the podcast. Yeah. And then next episode, friends to lovers. Oh, my gosh. And then you know what happens. Right.

Yeah. Lovers. Enemy. Two syndicated. What? Okay. We'll end it there. That'll do it.

Okay. Thank you guys. Bye, guys. Bye. Well, my God, thank you once again for listening to Factually. And thank you to Natalie and Charlie for coming on the show. If you want to check out their podcast, Exploration Live, you can do so wherever you get your podcasts.

I get mine at the bottom of a deep dark hole personally. So you could go check and see if you have one of those in the backyard. If you'd like to support this show directly, so I can, you know, buy myself chocolate milk or whatever the fuck my new stupid thing I'm consuming is now. You can do so. You can go to patreon.com. Slash out of gone over.

Five bucks a month gets you every episode of the show ad-free. For 15 bucks a month, you know what? I might read your name in the credits. And I'll put it in the credits of every single one of my video monologues for sure. This is we're going to want to thank Solar Yeti, quotidiofile, Trey Bert, Patrick Ryan. Let's go to page two. Let's go to some OGs.

Let's go to some of the original supporters. I want to thank Kelly Seeger, Alan Liska. Oh, Kelly Seeger. Seeger. We know you're a no G. Kelly Seeger said hi to me at a show recently. Antonio L.B. And Paul Mouk. Paul, motherfucking Mouk. If you'd like to join Paul PMM, as we so affectionately call him, and all the other folks who support the show, Patreon.com slash Adam Conover, is that URL once again. Uh, I'd like to thank my producers, Tony Wilson and Sam Rowdman, everybody here at Headgum for making the show possible and for making Exploration Live possible.

I've been Adam Conover. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time on Factually. That was a HeadGum podcast. Hi, I am Mandy Moore. Sterling K. Brown. And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast, That Was Us, now on HeadGum. Each episode, we're going to go into a deep dive from our show, This Is Us. That's right.

We're going to go episode by episode. We're also going to pepper in episodes with different guest stars and writers and casting directors. Are we going to cry? Yes, a little bit. Are we going to laugh? A lot. A whole lot. That's what I'm hoping, man.

Listen to that was us on your favorite podcast app or watch full video episodes on YouTube or Spotify. New episodes every Tuesday.