Factually! with Adam Conover - Susan Orlean Shares the Secrets of a Lifetime of Reporting

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Susan Orlean is one of the greatest living nonfiction writers. She has an uncanny ability to find stories in mundane, unexpected places, and approach them with such a level of authentic fascination that the reader can’t help but become fascinated too. This week, Adam sits with Susan to talk not just about her work, but the very idea of what a storyteller is. Find Susan’s new memoir, Joyride, at factuallypod.com/books--SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. New Year, same extra value meals at McDonald's. Now get a savory sausage-mic muffin with egg plus hash browns and a small coffee for just $5. For limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery. I don't know the truth. Hey there, welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Conover.

Thank you so much for joining me on the show this week. I am so excited for this week's episode. I cannot begin to tell you. Look, what gets me going in my life, the thing that animates my creative life, the thing that draws me to particular pieces of media, is when they expose a story that was hiding in plain sight that I never knew existed. But now that it's revealed to me, I am fascinated by it's that moment of epiphany when you realize, oh, my God, the world contains more complexity, more fascination, more stories than I ever thought that it did. I think that this is what journalism can do on its highest level. Journalists are the people who go out in the world and discover the stories that we never would have seen if not for their efforts. And on the show this week, we have who the person who I believe is the best living practitioner of this art form.

Her name is Susan Orlean. She's the author of the books, The Orchid Thief, which was adapted famously by Charlie Kaufman into the movie adaptation. But more importantly, the Orchid Thief. But if you haven't read the Orca Thief, it's better than the movie, in my opinion. I'm just putting that out there. She also wrote the library book. She's been a writer for the New Yorker for many decades. She is one of the very best practitioners of literary, narrative, journalistic nonfiction,

whatever you want to call it, that we have ever had in this country. And she has recently written a new memoir called Joyride, where she talks about how she came to that work, her process and all the incredible stories that have happened to her along the way. And she was kind enough to come into the studio to talk to me about all of this in person. It's a little bit different of an interview because I normally don't fanboy quite this much for my interview guests. But look, we got the fucking goat on the show. What am I supposed to do?

Now, before we start the interview, I just want to remind you that if you want to come see me do what I do, see my brand new hour of stand-up comedy, well, I'm going to be in Louisville, Kentucky on January 3rd. 30th and 31st. I'm going to be in Houston, Texas, on February 12th and 13th. Oh, and 14th. Don't forget the 14th. And then on February 19th through 21st, I will be in San Francisco, California, where I will be taping the special at the historic punchline comedy club. Please come out. I would love to see you there. Also, later in the year, I'll be in La Jolla, California, and Kansas City, Missouri. Would love to see you at those shows. Head to Adamconover.net for all those tickets and tour dates. And if you want to support the show and all the conversations we bring you every single week,

head to patreon.com slash Adam Con over five bucks a month, gets you every episode of the show. Ad free, we'd love to have you. And now, let's get to this week's interview with the incomparable Susan Orlean. Susan, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm thrilled. I'm so thrilled to have you on not to, like, gas you up too early. You're like my favorite living nonfiction writer. Oh, my God.

to say. I'm sorry to say. What can I say? That's amazing. Thank you. I apologize to start that way, but I'd be like remiss if I didn't. I'm just... Well, now I'm just like, the rest of this is gravy as I'm concerned. This is like when you're on a date, you're not supposed to start with just like a compliment. You know, I just be like, oh, you're so beautiful. Like, that's a bad way to start. And I feel like the same thing with an interview, but it's out there. That's how I feel. I'm thrilled. Thank you. Really, that's a gigantic compliment. Well, you're, I mean, you're, you're, you have this like amazing ability to, like, find the most interesting stories in the tiniest of places. And what I love about your memoir is that you are, it's really the story of you doing that over and over again and like how you develop that process.

So, like, you describe it wonderfully in the book, but for our audience. how do you describe the thing that it is that you do, like you're fundamental? I think the basics are, you know, in some regard, extremely simple, which is that I have an open mind and I'm deeply curious. And I'm curious about two sort of species of things. One is the hidden world that you didn't even know existed. and those are all around us. It just takes a little effort to find them. And the other thing that I'm very curious about

is to look at something very familiar, very obvious, and then think, what, do I really know this obvious familiar thing? And usually the answer is no. You don't actually know a lot about this familiar thing. So those are two very different kinds of subjects, but they all come from the same place, which is just being curious and saying, I want to know more. I want to learn more. Tell me more about the world around me. You have an example of each of those categories from your work? Yeah, absolutely. I would say my last book, the library book, was a perfect example of one day, being in a library, thinking, wow, libraries are so familiar.

And your inclination is to think they're boring and kind of somber. The post office is just a building that a service I use. It's a utility. Yeah. I began thinking, you know, I actually have no idea how libraries really work. And when you think about it, it's probably a rather. complex story. So I got really excited about looking at the life and times of a library. Then lo and behold, stumbled across the fact that the LA library, which was the one I was focusing on,

had experienced the largest library fire in American history. Yeah. It was like, whoa, now I've got a really great sort of thriller. But it began with this interest in taking something very ordinary. Yeah. And looking at it a little more deeply and saying, well, do I really know how this thing works? Another example of the other kind of story is I was at a friend's one day and he had on his coffee table a catalog from a taxidermy supply company. Uh-huh.

And I was very surprised because I didn't imagine there were enough taxidermists in the world to sustain a company that made supplies. Right. You know, I figured it was a couple of guys in their garage in Kentucky, you know, taking raccoons and stuffing them. Well, not at all. I mean, it's actually a big hobby with a lot of people who are passionate about it. It supports a considerable industry of people making supplies like eyeballs for deer heads and raccoon noses and, you know, the stuff you need as a taxidermist. And, you know, I got more and more drawn into this sort of hidden. world of taxidermy and the world taxidermy championships were.

They have competitions for taxidermin. They have competitions. Wow. And it happened. My curiosity about taxidermy arose about three weeks before the world taxidermy were being held in Springfield, in Illinois. No, Indiana. There's a Springfield in every state.

Yeah. So I can't remember. It was an I state that I recall. So that was an example of that kind of story where this was a hidden subculture. Yeah. That I had no idea existed. I had no idea that there were people so committed to it, so passionate about it. I could never have imagined that there was something like a championship.

Yeah. And so I sort of entered this alternate universe that was thrilling to discover even existed. So that, you know, that's the other end of the spectrum. The thing where I go, my God, I had no idea. Yeah. And how often are you able to find a fascinating story from that thread, right? Because, you know, I have to imagine, I would worry, oh, I go to the Taxidemy Championship. and it's like, okay, well, it's a fun competition and somebody won, but like, where's the, how,

how do you know that you can find the piece that is going to not just be like, oh, that's kind of interesting, but, like, fascinating and draw you and the reader, like, you know, down this irresistible rabbit hole. Right. Well, that's the big challenge because you can go and just go, oh, okay, that exists. It's not, it doesn't rise above. simply being like a travelogue. There's something that I think that I'm good at zeroing in on a sort of emotional theme that makes a story more interesting. Very often it's about why do people find meaning in this subculture.

Yeah. And that, you know, I've repeatedly examined. whether it's surf girls in Maui, whether it's people singing in a gospel group. A lot of times what I'm trying to figure out is how does this thing give meaning to the people who care about it? Yeah. And that's a pretty bulletproof kind of concept. The, the explain to me why this means something and it elevates it from just being here a bunch of weirdos stuffing deer

to here is a strange, interesting art form or hobby or whatever you want to call it that people find deep satisfaction out of doing. Why is that? How is that? what is it that draws them to it? In the case of taxidermy, it's became really interesting to me. It's about this toggling between life and death because the animals that you taxidermy are dead. But what you're trying to do with your taxidermy is make them look like they're still alive.

So it kind of had this really interesting kind of underwereming. kind of underlying theme about life and death. Resurrection. Yes, and trying to beat the issue of mortality and make these things look alive forever. Yeah. And, you know, on one hand, a lot of taxidermists are hunters, so they're the ones who are killing the animals.

Uh-huh. And yet they really want to make them look like they're alive and they're about to step out and walk away. Yeah. So that struck me as really interesting. You know, I have a sort of philosophical turn of mind. And so a lot of these subjects, to me, become really interesting questions of philosophy. And, you know, the nature. of finding meaning.

Yeah. There's something about your eye, like what you notice about the world, that it seems like you hone in on it very clearly and then you're exceptionally good at relating it. Like it's been close to 10 years since I've read The Orchid Thief, which is maybe my favorite book of yours.

But the way you describe orchids at the beginning of the book is after you read this section, I'm like, this is the most fascinating things I've ever encountered, that they're all, you know, they're so different. They grow in these very, these places where, you know,

like in these microclimates, these microenvironments, they're fertilized in this very specific way by very specific bugs. You know, they're all completely different. And thus, there are people who become obsessed.

with collecting them. And I, again, it's been a while since I read it, so I can't remember, like, how long this passage is. But my memory is, it's like in the span of a couple pages. I'm just like, as enraptured by the subject, as you and by the people that you're covering, when previously, before turning that page, I had no idea that the thing was that intro.

Oh, there's those flowers. Right. These are some flowers. And suddenly I'm like, my mind is like fully of these things. I also have to say one of the reasons that book hit so hard for me is my father grew up in South Florida in that area. My, that's where my grandmother raised him. She was an orchid grower.

And so he now grows orchids. And actually one of the minor characters in your book is, you know, runs a large orchid nursery. And he actually bought my father's childhood home from my grandmother. You're kidding. What a weird, weird overlap. It's such a weird overlap. Yeah.

Well, one of the things about writing these stories is, I'll look at the orchid thief as a perfect example. I had no interest in orchids. In fact, the little I knew of them, I didn't like them. I thought they were sort of flamboyant and not very attractive. I just didn't like them. Yeah. I, you know, fell headfirst into this crazy world of people who are obsessed with orchids. And with a little bit of skepticism, like, will show me why I should care about these.

And then slowly through the accretion of the, you know, amazing information about their, I mean, they are really fascinating. Whether you like the way they look or not, they're sort of the same. science of them is fascinating. And it's why they've been studied, why Darwin was obsessed with them. And so I kind of got drawn in against my instincts, which were like, I don't get it. Why would anyone care about these? So then I was able to turn to the reader and kind of replicate the experience of saying, I know you maybe don't even want to read a book about orchids.

but let me tell you how I got seduced. And by doing so, I'm going to seduce you the way I got seduced. And that, so that relationship with the reader is always there, which is I'm saying, I fully expect that you are not interested in the subject. Yeah. So my goal is to make you understand how I got hooked on this subject. even though I began, because I usually write about stuff I don't like. Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it.

I don't often write about the things that I have a preexisting knowledge of or passion for. I very often write about stuff where I'm a little skeptical. Like, I don't get it. Show me why this is interesting. And honestly, with orchids, I have. I mean, look, I had to go get a, like, a seventh grade, um, textbook on botany because I was like, I don't know anything about flowers. So I'm going to have to do a little bit of boning up here.

I'm not a science person. And I think I thought, how can a flower be interesting? Like, it's a flower. Yeah. And then you discover, wow, these are really amazing. and strange, and they seem to have a bizarre sort of intelligence, which sounds absurd to say about a flower, but, you know, Darwin sort of studied the weird way that orchids have evolved with a pollinator that is like a perfect match, and why did that happen?

and how did that happen? And you start thinking, that is spooky. Yeah. Like you're an orchid with a really long, narrow sort of channel with the pollen at the bottom. And you are partnered with a moth that has a really long, skinny nose that can go into the orchid and get the pollen. You think that's really weird. Yeah. And if one of those species disappears, the other one does too.

They're so dependent. Yeah, absolutely. And I was drawn to the story because I thought, why would anyone be so obsessed with orchids that they would risk jail time, risk the kind of inherent danger involved in hiking in a swamp? Yeah. To collect these rare orchids. Like, why? Why would you do that? Why not go to Trader Joe's and buy an orchid for 12?

bucks. So again, I sort of started with the skepticism. What makes this click for someone? Yeah. I just realize this right now. It's sort of funny. A story needs a writer the way an orchid needs a pollinator. Oof, that's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I hadn't ever thought of that before, but what the writer is doing is spreading the story. Ah, yes. And sticking the proboscis way down deep inside where no one has before where no one else could. And then spreading it around the world and fertilizing everyone else with it. I don't even think that that's a sort of stretch.

I think we're talking about, I mean, a story, I need a story to exist as a writer. and a story needs a writer for it to sort of become a story and sort of be out in the world. Yeah, you described yourself. Interesting. I feel like we got an exclusive here. Yeah, this is a scoop. Well, you've talked about these stories many, many times over the years,

but I like how you are still thinking about them freshly. And you described yourself in the book you wrote, you spent 10 years writing a book about Rin Tin Tin, about the movie and then, television dog. And you described this like moment of crisis where you're like, well, anybody could go look through these records and like write this book. And then you realize, oh, but nobody else is.

Right. Right. And so you, it does need, you are the essential piece. Yeah. Of bringing the story to light. Like you are actually adding something simply through your presence. Yes. As a mind moving through the material.

Is that something like that? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I often think about how you'll go see a certain amount of modern art and think, you know, my kid brother could do that. Right. Like Jackson Pollock drip paintings. Right. And you think, yeah, but your kid brother didn't do it. Right. It's a, you know, it's not about, and in the case of Rin Tin, that feeling of.

I'm not in World War I reporting from the front lines. I'm going and reading material that anyone could access. But number one, they aren't. I am because I've chosen to make this my job in life. And secondly, I'm looking at it in a perspective, in the case of Rent and Tin from the perspective of what was the role

that dogs played in World War I and how is it that this puppy came to be on this battlefield you know there are lots of you know

how many there are libraries full of books about World War I but that perspective and the fact that I've anointed myself a storyteller.

And so I'm out gathering stories to share with you. It doesn't have to be primary research. I can be going to the great books about World War I and reading them and bringing to them this new perspective. Yeah. It doesn't have to be, you know, an exclusive. It doesn't have, that's not what storytelling is about. Well, and that violates, look, I've pitched documentaries and things in Hollywood, and a lot of times that's what they want is they want the, what's the exclusive access that you have? Right. That nobody else could tell this story. And it's a little hard to explain. Well, it's just that I'm actually a different person than everybody else. Right. And that to me is where it all comes from. It's not a matter of saying, I'm the only person in the universe who has actually.

to this story, it's, I have a perspective that is really strong and interesting and original on, I mean, it's so funny. I just saw this six-part documentary about the Nuremberg trials. And, you know, a lot of the material, I mean, you know, again, World War II, the massive amount of material that's been generated, studying the war, studying Hitler, studying every element of every perspective. You almost think there cannot be a new perspective. And yet there are. And this was really looking at it from the angle of William Shire, who wrote the rise and fall

of Third Reich, and who I didn't know was. a radio reporter and he was there at the Nuremberg trials and he, you know, he was in Germany through this entire period of time. So the documentary examines it sort of from his perspective and it felt really new and you think so interesting. I mean, what has been examined more in the history of mankind than World War II? And yet you can still find something new to say. Yeah, and that's also fascinating. I have not read that book, but I read a different, you know, history of, uh, the rise of the third right. Because, you know, it's a little relevant right now. It felt like something I wanted to bone up on a little bit. And I read some reviews of that.

You know, that's obviously a very popular book. And, you know, modern historians are like, well, we have our quibbles. The thing is this guy was sort of present at the time. That's what's interesting about that book. So to do a documentary about like, let's examine his perspective is, Like that's a vantage point on a vantage point that is going to be specific. You're not going to get the same version of the story. Right. Folks, this episode is brought to you by Alma. You know, a year from today, who do you want to be?

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Promocode factually at checkout. I'm curious, though, is there something that you feel about your process that can only be done, you know, as a prose journalist, like, because, you know, I've, what I have done in, you know, my past career, I consider documentary to some degree. I'm finding stories. I'm telling them. But, like, you're able. to really drill down so deeply and share these, like find these delicious morsels, you know,

about each topic that I'm like, is it only possible to do that, you know, as a reporter, as opposed to a documentarian or a radio documentarian or all these other methods of doing nonfiction? That's a good question. I think one of the advantages of pros is, first of all, the detail that you can indulge in credible detail more than you're able to, I think, in documentary. I mean, there's a two-hour documentary, a six-part documentary. obviously there's a lot there, but there is a detail that you can include when you don't have footage. You know, I think there's a limitation with film, which is if you don't have something to be looking at while you're doing the sort of description, you can't put it in the documentary.

So you need to have the complexity of having that stuff to have on the screen. Yeah. This is like what the innovation that Ken Burns, like the original reason Ken Burns was a big deal was he invented the push in on the photo, which gave you something to look at in like, was the early 90s he started doing this. Right. And like that was like, oh, now we can do a kind of documentary we couldn't do before because we have a technique. to have something to look at at all. Right. And actually, you have to like be awed by that because it does give you permission to have a lot more word input with when you don't have so much to look at on screen.

The other thing is that the pure sort of beauty of using language and. having people consume it that way is, I don't want to say it's better, but it's different. And it allows you to riff on visual stuff, on description that in a documentary, it's sort of one and done. Yeah. Show the thing, you move on. You move on to the next. You move on to the next. Whereas in a piece of writing, I mean, you were talking about describing.

orchids, I could indulge at great length, just reveling in the descriptive language that I really want to just have people kind of sink in to these descriptions and not rush on. So you're much more in control of the pacing in prose, where you want to spend three pages just like luxuriating in description that, I mean, you can do it badly, but if you do it well, you are able to really enjoy the nature of just being much more in control of how do you move a reader through a piece of writing. Yeah. You can slow down. You can iterate on an idea.

Yeah. before moving on. And I think in documentary, there's a little more of pace. Like, you know, people are going to get restless. You've got to move on to the next idea and the next idea. Yeah. So, you know, writing is much more,

you're a little more insulated from some of the demands of attention. and there's got to be sound and visual and, you know, this is just, it's a little more of an intimate experience. It's a little closer to the very origin of storytelling, which is I'm going to sit you down and I'm going to tell you this amazing story. Yeah. It's just when I'm reading your writing, it's just you, Susan, telling me a story. Word after word, you dwell on what you want to dwell on.

You can cut to a new image when you want to. But there's also something that's such an advantage in the fact that you can get so intimate with the places that you go and the people that you talk to because it's just you. Like it's just you're hanging out with them. All that you are really recording with is like your eye. Your eye and your ear needs to be somewhere. And that means just you as a person need to be somewhere. presumably you're taking notes. I know that you do,

but maybe you don't even have to in some situations. You're just experiencing it versus if I want to do something or a radio reporter wants to do something with someone, I have to always go, let me hit record. Right. And then suddenly it's, you know, it's Schrodinger, right? It's like you've changed the situation by recording it. Oh, God.

I think, well, I mean, with documentary, I sometimes think, God, what a drag. You have the cameraman. You have the sound man. You have the report. You know, it's so much less natural. I mean, each additional person, each additional piece of equipment takes you that much further and further and further from an organic rapport. Yeah.

I mean, and that's no one's fault. That's just reality. And that's why I really like just taking notes by hand because I feel like it's just me in a notebook and a pen. it is less efficient, but it also means that it's just us talking and I'm going to scribble some notes. And I'm not hitting a button on and off and thinking, okay, now you're being boring. So I'm going to stop recording. And now I'm going to turn the recorder back on. It's even more natural than that.

It's just I'm going to scribble while we're talking. Yeah. And then put my pen down and then pick it up again. And it's, it feels as close to, as close to natural as you can get with understanding, of course, that reporting is never entirely natural, you know, unless you're undercover and I'm not. Yeah. But there's always an element of artifice, but as much as you can avoid that. And, you know, it's just a, I mean, I find it, I'll just give you an example that's a little different.

But lately, I've had this experience where I'm with friends and someone will say, oh, oh, because stand over here. I have to do this picture of my Instagram. And I think, you know what? Like, I just, I'm here. I don't want to do that thing where I go pose over there for your Instagram. it feels so artificial. And I think for reporting and for storytelling,

that becomes a terrible interference with an effort to get close to people and have them actually open up to you. Yeah. To say, like if you record, oh, tell me that again, but do it for the camera this time. Right. Or can we do this? I mean, I've had experiences on the road as a,

stand-up comic where I'm like, okay, I'm just exploring the town that I'm in and I go to an amazing, you know, business or like restaurant or something happens. And I'm like, I wish, I was recording, you know, I wish I was recording this right now. I'm like, okay, well, if I wanted to, I'd have to come back with a camera crew and do like a pre-interview and be like, okay, can we make this happen? And I won't, you know, go to the specific case. But like, it's almost impossible to recapture the initial thing that happened. But, but. with writing, you actually can. Like if I were to write down that experience that I had,

I'm like, that would be the only way I could reproduce it. Yeah. In a way that was as direct as I experienced it as much as possible. And obviously, observing something does change it. Sure. There is no question. But, I mean, that's a reality. That's just true.

We all understand that. and I think everybody reads knowing that, of course, things are somewhat altered by being observed. But you minimize the alteration if it's just you and a notebook or you and no notebook, where you really can be in the moment. And also, you're as a writer, your brain isn't thinking, I wonder if the camera could just get a little more over this. And you're like directing. in your head. Now, I love documentaries, so this is no dis. And there's certain subjects that are perfect for a documentary. And, you know, that's... And you worked on how to with John Wilson,

one of my very favorite shows. Yes. And that's an example of documentary in its highest form, which is completely creative. And I think it is sort of dependent on, I don't. know him that well I don't know him personally at all but um that he's a guy who's sort of constantly has a camera rolling in his life and so it has that very personal aspect of just a guy with a video camera like oh if you're around him he's probably filming something so you know it like has that pre-associative feeling in a way that almost no other documentary does right and I think he is unique in that sense that he literally is always filming and for no particular person purpose. He's logging hours and hours of footage just because that's how he sees the world. And then

in the course of doing the show, he could mine this huge library of stuff. Yeah. Most of us aren't like that. You know, most of us and most documentaries aren't made that way. They are like sit down. Let's get the lighting right. Let's do the. And so John is just, he's unusual in that regard. He does it so much, though, that I think it's become like an extension of his eyeball. You know, it's just, it doesn't seem to have any particular impact on the way he relates to people because he does it so often. And with it being just very natural. Well, and that's the way to do it. Like, I've become in the last year, really interested in photography and just the experience of, oh, my eye was somewhere.

I experienced something. and I would like to capture that and represent it for other people as being the sort of fundamental experience. But, you know, if you pull out a camera, people start behaving differently. Right. The cure for that is if you are taking so many photographs that people are just like, oh, to hanging out with Steve, he's just always taking photos. Right.

So now we're also going to be ourselves. We're not thinking about it. Right. Sort of the same with you. I would imagine. Oh, well, yeah, she does her thing. Of course, she's taking some notes. Like, she's a note taker.

Right. Like you make it part of your life. And then, I mean, we're all observing all the time. And so, hey, this is the way you observe. And then it goes in the material. And you're right. I think that the more, you know, I think a lot of people, I hope not in an icky way, but they figure if they're telling me a funny story, I may be thinking, oh, this could be a cool story.

Yes. And obviously, I would never then go forward without saying, can I pursue this story? but it's just everyone sort of everyone who knows me knows that that is the way my brain works. It's just the way I am. I mean, I can't help it. I'm always, it's not even conscious. It's just sort of me being in the world

and my way of sort of processing the world is thinking of it in terms of story. Yeah. Oh, that would be. be a cool story or I want to know more about that odd thing or that interesting thing or that surprising thing. I want to learn more about it. Maybe everybody thinks I want to learn more about it, but I actually go and do it. So that's the difference. Well, you've also had the opportunity to, you cover your career in the book and it feels in a lot of ways you've had a little bit of a charmed life

as a writer that, you know, you're the, I'm really struck by the book where it's like, you know, you, uh, you, uh, the way that you, you know, sort of started writing at the New Yorker, you know, um, is you describe yourself as being surprised and delighted, uh, but, uh, that's, you know, you were, you were in a time and place that, like, allowed you to be able to do that work, right? Yeah. Um, and, uh, the, what you do seems to be, you know, an, you know, an extension of that sort of long-form feature reporting style that was, you know, still exists

in the New Yorker, but it's really died out in a lot of the rest of the media industry. Right. And so you were able to hone that through many decades when I feel like a lot of people now might not have the opportunity to. Yeah. I feel like I was very lucky. I feel very lucky. And I don't even feel like that.

I'm not trying to diminish the hard work or whether I had the talent to support it or not. And it was a lucky combination of my particular interests and what was going on in the magazine world at the moment that I, I mean, probably the years when I was first sort of getting into the magazine business were probably the best. that I could have ever hit. Yeah. I mean, you know, you had a lot of magazines that were thriving that had a lot of space and a lot of openness to these enterprising stories that weren't kind of news base. Yeah, there's a lot of cases in your book where you go to some editor and you're like, I'm interested in this or that and I'm not sure, you know, where it's going to go.

And the editor says like, yeah, go chase it down. Right. We've got, you know what, take a month. We don't mind spending the money on it because, hey, money is coming in. Tons of people are buying the magazine. We're not under any pressure. And so there was space for like artistic exploration because of the sort of like largesse of the industry because of, I guess I said to the monopoly that journalism as a whole still had on the distribution of information. Whereas now that's been absorbed by the tech industry.

Right. And, you know, there was an openness to saying, check it out and see, instead of you have to guarantee that this is a great story, that it's worth the money. And it used to be take the amount of time you need. And now it's don't take that much time. We need it right away. budgets for travel were it wasn't true in every single magazine but kind of consistently true

through the industry which was spend what you need. Don't be ridiculous, but spend what you need. And now even at the New Yorker, there's a real consciousness of do it in one trip. Don't do two trips.

don't spend two weeks, you know, racking up hotel bills. You do it in one week. It's, it changes the nature of what you can do, for sure. The first time that I was told that I couldn't go back to do more reporting, I felt like, I don't know how to, I mean, that's always been, not in a stupid wasteful way, but you go and initially do some reporting. You digest what you've learned.

And then you think, all right, I now I now understand the story more. Now I want to go back and do a little deeper dive. You can't really do that anymore. Yeah. Sort of do it all in one trip because we're not going to pay for you to fly there twice. And yeah, it's,

It's different. It's probably why I've been doing more books lately because... It's up to you then. You get the advance and if you blow through it and you want to keep spending money, you can. Yeah. Spend it as at your discretion. But it's usually tailored somewhat to what you think the book will cost you to do. Yeah.

But, you know, the world has changed. I don't think there's some evil plan afoot. I'm sure if magazines could afford to send reporters two times, three times, whatever, they would do it. Yeah. I think it's a reality of the amount of money they have. And we all know that the, as you say, the monopoly that journalism had, print journalism had is. long gone. Yeah. And probably will, what, probably. I think it's safe to say it will never return. Print, certainly. But the shift from what media gets made being decided by media companies that have

their own independent life as businesses, right? Yeah. Like a New Yorker or whatever other magazine is making money. And so the editor gets to decide what happens, as opposed to them being a appendage on the end of meta and Google, you know, is like such a massive shift and it's affected, you know, journalism and magazines almost more than any other industry, like newspapers as well, but Hollywood is now feeling the effects of this. Yeah. Book publishing has actually like kind of survived a lot better than a lot of other industries, but as sort of like, you know, somebody who experienced every stage of the New Yorker for the past,

you know, half century or so. And as, you know, we're there for the pinnacle of it, like, I mean, how do you feel seeing what has happened to the art form, you know? It's, I'm not going to lie. It's pretty disheartening. Yeah. I try not, I'm not sentimental and nostalgic in a way. I mean, I try not to be because I feel like, look, life moves.

forward. We're in a different world now and to wring my hands and say, oh, back in the old days, you know, things were great in the old days. I think it's worth it to do that sometimes. Yeah, I would say that, and certainly when I talk to young writers, it breaks my heart a little because all of the, the number of venues that are open to this kind of writing, I mean, you can count on your hands. It's just a concrete fact. Half more than half of the places that I relied on as my career kind of got moving are gone. Every Sunday magazine except for the New York Times. I don't think there's a single major newspaper anymore that has a Sunday magazine. Those used to be really great places if you wanted to try doing

long-form narrative journalism, that was a great venue. All of the alternative news weeklies, that's where I started my career. And they were wonderful training grounds. And you had the opportunity to really stretch out and write these longer stories that were a little more enterprising, a little off the grid. those are mostly gone. Still a few hanging around, but the gross majority of them are gone.

Magazines, you know, we all know how many have bit the dust. Yeah. One thing I'll mention because it doesn't get brought up as often, but women's magazines were very open to running, not like a piece about taxidermy, But they were very open to running a lot of good, long essays. Yeah. And many of them are gone.

Yeah. So you cannot deny that that era is over. And you now have, every magazine has a big website and lots of space to run lots of stuff. So it's not all doom and gloom, but, you know, it's mathematics. You just look at the number of publications and, what is it, a quarter? I don't know the exact number, but it's just, I'm sure more than half of the venues that I would point out as good places to write long narrative pieces are gone. Yeah. And I think it's fascinating that the tech platforms that initially promoted themselves, in many cases, they still do promote themselves as being, you know, leveling as now you have access to more information.

Now more people can get their voices out there have resulted in the destruction of, you know, wholesale art forms, you know, and made it harder to make a living as, you know, in all those fields. You know, it's funny. I was saying to somebody recently that it's easier to get published now and harder to get paid. You know, you've got substack, you've got Beehive, you've got all of these platforms where all you have to do is set up an account. And next thing you know, you're a publisher. You're publishing your newsletter. But you're not going to get a penny unless you get lucky and find that you have subscribers who are, well, willing to pay.

Yeah. So I would say it is actually easier to get published, or even if you just want to write some long screed on Facebook, which people do often run these really long, you know, monologues on Facebook. You're not, you know, the professionalizing that has become harder. Yeah. It's not easy. And though everybody has the very kind of optimistic view that their substack will make them rich,

the vast majority of people on substack don't make more than a couple hundred bucks. I mean, when I saw that move to substack, I was, like, I'm very familiar with this from what's happened to the entertainment industry, right? where everyone says, oh, people are making so much money on TikTok. Well, like three people are. And everybody else is posting stuff for free because they've been told, if they do it long enough and in the right way,

they can be one of the people who makes a lot of money. But the company never tells you how many people are actually making money. Right. And there is no middle class on substack. They're the very rich, the people who literally have a million followers.

Yeah. And then the majority of people have what, 100, 200 subscribers and their mom pays for a subscription? Or, you know, if you're somebody, I mean, it's, you're giving it away for free and hoping some people will say, you know what, you're a good egg, I'm going to send you 60 bucks or eight bucks a month or whatever. there's not really a middle class on substack. And because the people who have lots of followers have lots and lots and lots of followers. It's a funny, I mean, it's interesting how that's happened. But so there's subscription fatigue.

I think we all like, oh my God, I'm already paying for Netflix and Peacock and this, that and the other. and now I'm going to pay for 12 substacks, you know, and it adds up to being a lot of money. I will confess, in my, you know, prep for this interview, I was looking, I saw that you had a substack. Of course. I was like, oh, wonderful. Susan has a substack. And I was like, oh, it's a subscriber substack.

And there's locked posts. And I was like, well, I want to subscribe. Well, I subscribe to the New Yorker. Right. And I can read you the New Yorker. I purchased the book. I'm like, do I need another subscription, you know, and not, I think I probably still will, because I'd love to read your writing, but, but it was a funny, it was a funny moment.

And I don't, I completely understand. I mean, in fact, what I write about on substack is very, the reason I have a substack is to publish stuff that really wouldn't fit in the New Yorker. So it's a kind of different, first of all, it's much more chatty. And I write a lot about design and fashion and stuff that, I don't write about generally for the New Yorker. So it's quite different. But I don't blame anybody for feeling like, you know, that's an, I mean, I pay for a certain number of substacks. Yeah.

And every once in a while, I think, you know what? I'm canceling this one because I just have too many. Yeah. And I'm paying too much for this chunk of substacks and I'm not reading them all. most people who are on subsec as free subscribers. Yeah. And I give most of mine away for free. I just,

um, I don't lock most of my posts. I, in fact, they keep telling me to lock more of them. So that they're just for paid subscribers. And I feel like, oh, I don't know.

Do I really want to do that? Yeah. But it's different. I, luckily paid well for my work as a rule. So I'm not looking to substack to support myself. Right. People who are using it and hoping it will support them.

I think there will be a big shakeout in the next stretch of time of people going, you know what? I'm paying $300 a year for all these substacks. And I'm really only reading two. Yeah. So I'm going to. going to drop all of these. Like, yeah.

That wouldn't surprise me if that happens. And like, you can still subscribe to a magazine for like 30 bucks a year, you know? Right. Or less because they're so desperate to have subscribers. Like, now one cent an issue and you think, really? Then of course, why not get it? But it's, um, the economy of the writing world is very, it is in real turmoil right now.

And I feel like, I feel very fortunate that I got my feet under me at a time where there just was more bounty. There was, magazines were making money. Yeah. The world looked differently on magazines as being a necessity sort of. Everybody got six or seven magazines at home. You got to do something in the doctor's waiting room. Exactly. The hairdresser.

I used to carry an issue before I had a cell phone. I used to carry an issue with the New Yorker like in my back pocket on the subway in New York. And that was why I got the New Yorker was so that I could have something to carry around for the day. And I would do that once a week. And then when I was done, I would throw it out. Right. Yeah. Or is that, there's especially that economy on the New York subway of like leaving

newspapers for other people. I know. I really missed that. That's how I got my idea for the orchid thief, by the way. Somebody had left a newspaper on an airplane. Wow. And I had run out of things to read. And I thought, well, maybe somebody left something.

Because people left magazines and newspapers all the time. Yeah. And I reach, in fact, they used to have magazines that you could, that the airplane carried that they could borrow. That makes me sound very old. but that was definitely a thing. Yeah. And someone had left a Miami Herald in this seat pocket.

And I was flipping through and saw this little headline saying, you know, rare local nursery man and seminal crew arrested with rare orchids. Mm-hmm. And I thought that sounds really weird. I am going to look into this. Hey there, listener, it's your pal, Adam. You know, I've been doing a lot of thinking, and it's time. You've been looking to launch your own business. You've been prepping to be an entrepreneur, founder, boss,

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promo code factually to get 40% off your first box and free item of your choice for life. It was a sort of serendipity-based information gathering world that we lived in where, oh, there's a newspaper sitting there. Let me grab it. Let me flip through it. Let me see what's available to me as opposed to it being delivered to you by an algorithm. And not to harp on substack too much. back to that, but I remember when it started, it was very much, oh, here's a way, if you're a

writer with an audience, here's a way to monetize and, and, you know, have a platform and, and, you know, people will send links to each other. And it's moved more and more towards substack. Like, if you do well on substack, substack, we'll show your work to more people. And that reminds me a lot of, like, I got started on YouTube and it used to be when he had a good YouTube video, people would just email it to each other because they liked the video. Oh, interesting. And then it became, oh, if you do well, YouTube will show the video to other people. And now what you're appealing to is the algorithm, and I've seen on Substack, more and more people writing in a way that is designed specifically to work on Substack. Like the paid, the, the, the, the, the, the break for where the paid post starts is in like a place that's designed to create curiosity and get you to subscribe.

Right. And it starts to make all the writing feel same. Let me work my way to a question. Because for somebody who, you know, a young writer who's like reading, you know, your memoir and loves your work says, this is what I would like to do. Like this method is the pinnacle for me. I'm sure a lot of people feel that way. Do you still feel like it is possible to start, you know, that career? And do you have any advice for folks who want to do so? I do think it's possible.

I think the path that I used to suggest is no longer available because I used to include high up in my suggestions, the idea of working at an alternative news weekly, trying your hand at longer stories. That's not an option anymore. Is it possible? Yeah. I mean, there are young people who are popping up on the Atlantic. on the New Yorker who are doing stories that I might have done or that at least in the same kind of family of stuff. My advice is where do you begin doing that?

One place that has more elasticity are the websites of big magazines because space is not as much of an issue if it's not in print. You know, you can run a 10,000 word piece online, and it doesn't cost the way running six extra pages in a physical magazine is very expensive. So I think the entry point for a lot of young writers would be through those websites and trying to, and, you know, cultivating. I mean, something I wrote about in the book, I think the most important thing is cultivating good story ideas. Yeah. And put aside your kind of career ambitions, or at least takes 50% of the energy you put toward that, and put it toward thinking about what do you want to write about? What are good story ideas?

Good story ideas are the currency of the realm. Yeah. If you say, I want to be a person who writes long, interesting pieces, you're all right, great. Well, name one. People need to spend much more time learning how to develop good story ideas and how to advocate for the ones that don't sound so obvious. Yeah.

And, you know, that is, I feel strongly that that that's the secret sauce is to be able to come to an editor and say, I've got a great story idea. Instead of, I have great ambition and I want to write for you. And it's got to be, I mean, every move forward for me hinged on good ideas. Yeah. They weren't obvious. They weren't, you know, I have an exclusive interview with so-and-so. But it, it, I was passionate about a subject and I could advocate for why it was a good story. Yeah.

Using that, you know, that's been your method for so long, what was it like turning your eye and your pen towards yourself? because, you know, again, you've got this like, I see you as someone who's sort of like, you know, ferreting out something interesting and not resting until you find the most interesting thing and then saying, okay, that's the story idea, right? When you're writing a memoir, it's like, hey, your life is your life. Right. Right. You can't be sure that you're as interesting as, you know. Oh, believe me. This was really harder than it would seem.

On one hand, I didn't have to travel much to do my reporting. But I really found it challenging to think, okay, why is this interesting? What about it? Where can I find an element of surprise? Because to me, so much of the momentum in my stories emerges from me being surprised by what I've learned. Yeah. I mean, that sounds so maybe simplistic, but I think that's the energy that people

connect with, which is me genuinely being surprised and often delighted by the discovery. So how was I going to find that in a subject that was so familiar? It was tough going. I think that I initially hired someone to interview me. I hired a journalist and I said, I want to hear myself as a subject. And I can't do that on my own. I need to hear myself explaining myself to someone else. Yeah.

It unlocked a lot of this for me. Because, first of all, she was, I didn't give her the questions. I said, just you interview me, that you're trying to understand who I am and what I've done. Hearing myself, explained myself to her was revelatory. You know, it was really interesting and thinking, oh, I hadn't kind of remembered that or thought about that that way. Secondly, I, Columbia University had acquired my papers about 10 years ago, I think. And so I, and I didn't review my papers before they went to Columbia. So I went to the library and spent about two weeks going through my stuff.

You did an archive review of your own archive? Yes. And let me tell you, I had to make a reservation. I mean, I had to get an appointment. You had to check out your own papers? Yes, I did. In fact, they were very strict about it. They said, no, you have to go through the portal and set up an account and, you know, request the material.

And I said, that's my handwriting, bitch. Come on. I know. I was like, but it's mine. And she said, well, actually, no, it's ours. And you have to do it this way. But the funny thing is that I hadn't reviewed those papers before they went to Columbia. I just like, I didn't think about reviewing them.

So there was a lot that I didn't remember that I had saved notes from editors, my very first book proposal that a book I never did, all of the stuff that I had not looked at, but I had saved. Yeah. I was kind of a bit of a pack rat when it came to my career. And it was really like meeting a new person or looking back very much at a person that I hardly remembered. All of the stuff that I had saved was fantastic.

I mean, lots of notes from editors. a lot of my edited material notes to myself. I had the voicemail. You know, back in the day, an answering machine had a cassette that recorded your messages. And instead of recording over and over on my same cassette, I would often, if I had messages that were sort of meaningful to me, I would just keep the cassette and put in a fresh cassette. and put in a fresh cassette. So I had the voicemail message. It wasn't even called voicemail.

It was just an answering machine. The message from my editor after he had read the Orchid thief for the first time. Wow. You know, I had all of these messages that were at important points, you know, in my career back in the day before, you. email where everything was done by these voice messages. Yeah. So I really did look at it. Who is this person? Who is this 23-year-old who has this crazy idea to do a book? Like, who is she? And what was going on in her head? And I was able to kind of experience a little bit of objective distance. And I did. And I did.

find the capacity to be a bit surprised. Yeah. How did it feel, you know, experiencing yourself and then trying to find the story in that to share with other people? Because I'm sort of going through that transition myself creatively. My new hour of stand-up is about my personal life in a way I've never done before. I'm considering working on a book project and like maybe a TV pitch that's around, you know,

this is what I'm thinking about. I've spent my whole career working on. learning stuff about the world outside of me and presenting that to the audience, you know? And now I'm like very interested in myself. But sometimes A, I worry that I will change my own reaction to my own life personally because I'm trying to stortify it, you know? And then B, it's the terror of being known by the audience, you know,

to say here's who I am. Here's my, I mean, you talk about that, you know, the painful dissolution of a marriage and a lot of other very personal topics. It's terrifying. Isn't it in a way? Oh, it is. And for me, absolutely.

Because even though I've appeared in my stories in first person a lot, it's never been about me. I've been there as your companion, you being the reader. I've sort of been a companion for the reader, which means often using first person. But I've never said, here's me, here's what's going on in my life, here's the backstory to why I was drawn to this subject or that subject. So I think when you're writing that personally you deploy an amount of denial that the other day I was being interviewed and someone referred to my ex-husband by his first name. And I was like, what? You know, it was I thought, you know, wait a minute, even though, of course they would know his name.

I mentioned his name a thousand times in the book. But the breaking of the fourth wall of saying, oh, you know, so was that where you met Peter? And I think, how do you know his name? Right. You, I think you can only write that intimately if you allow yourself a little denial that it's not really going to be out there in the world to see. but there were a few things that I in the last minute decided not to include because I thought, you know what, this I'm not ready to it's not needed. It's not essential to the story and you can never take it back. So, you know, there were one or two things where I thought, no, that's not going in there. Save it for yourself. Yeah. As far as storification, growing out of the tradition of nonfiction with pretty rigid rules about truth versus fiction, I never had a problem with that because that's the those are the rules I live by. If I'm writing it, it's really happened and it happened the way I'm describing it. I don't come. I don't. composite characters. I don't change a little to make it a better story. I mean, that that is

just not acceptable in the world of journalism. And I also feel like that's part of the challenge. This, you know, part of the interesting thing about nonfiction is grappling with reality. You know, that's part of the challenge. Almost every. story of mine has had something that didn't turn out the way I thought it was going to turn out. But then I think, but you know what, that's what's interesting. It's, you know, with writing the Orchid Thief to go back to that book, I make the decision that I'm going to write a book. I had written a New Yorker story about John LaRoche and the Orchid Thief. Then I thought, I'm going to do a book. I really think this is a book. I go back to Florida and John Leroy.

Roche says to me, I got rid of all my orchids. I'm not working for the seminals anymore. And like, I'm never going to have anything to do with orchids again. And I thought, wait, you, you just ruined my book. And I remember just being like jaw on the ground, like, oh, good. I, wait a minute, what am I going to do? Like, literally this has ruined my book. Yeah.

And I thought, well, but this is reality. So the book that I had in my head was merely a sort of hypothetical. And the reality is consistent with his nature because he was a serial monogamous. And he would become passionate about things and then give them up. And so this was another one of those many things where he said, I'm done with orchids. So, you know, in a way, the challenge of grappling with the limits of what reality presents you with are where it becomes really interesting.

You know, it's, and you curate. I mean, somebody you thought was going to be an interesting interview is boring. So you leave them out. Yeah. But you find, you find. you find where the story truly lives. It's not always and rarely is it where you thought it live in the beginning. Yeah.

I understand that when you're reporting on other people or other subjects, you know, like I sort of believe in the idea that like story structure is sort of a feature of the human mind more than of reality. And so, you know, rather than imposing it on reality, you want to do justice to reality and then find where the structure emerges from it. But when you're talking about your own life, I mean, you have a moment in the book where you say, you know, why did I stay in that relationship, you know, like asking yourself that kind of question. And I find with, you know, matters of the heart, like, you know, I went through a large breakup and a lot of it, I felt like,

well, I could tell the story three different ways. And I tell it a different way depending on the day and depending on how I feel, you know, was it a tragedy? Was it a necessary? Was it a, you know, a rebirth? Was it a, you know, all these different things? And, like, when you're talking about your own emotions in your own life, there's a certain amount of like indeterminacy because it's just you and there's no observer. And so you kind of have, I think everyone's had the experience. We're like, oh, you know what, that thing that I always thought of as a curse or a or a defeat or a failure, actually, I'll just flip it. And you know what? It was a new beginning. It was a blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And when you're putting that into a book, I worry about freezing it. I think that's the fear for me is that I'm going to freeze it for myself. I'm just curious if you relate to any of that

and how you might have grappled. Yeah, and I think it's also different when you're writing a book and you have hindsight. Mm-hmm. The distance. Yeah, and you're, I mean, I look at the storyline and enjoy ride about my love life, well, looks like this person.

perfect arc because I ended up in a very happy marriage. And I look at it like, whoa, things, you know, I suffered so that I would have this more whatever mature kind of experience of falling in love with somebody. It's, and also it's my perspective. I mean, particularly talking about issues related to relationships. My ex-husband has a different story. I mean, I'll never know it because he passed away, but clearly this is my subjective version of this story. I also am not, I don't feel I need to make the conclusion for the reader. I feel like I can tell you the story as accurately as I can. I can ask myself questions about, you know, there was no doubt when I was writing this where I thought,

oh my God, if I were reading this, I would be thinking, what was she doing? What delusion kept her in that marriage? But I also feel that I don't need to do the final calculation. I want to bring you along on this journey that I took. And I don't need to tell you conclusively what it meant. Did it mean that I had the better judgment the next time around when I fell in love? That may be one of the meanings. Was it that I mean, there are many ways to interpret.

it. And I don't feel I need to interpret it for the reader. And absolutely, I've had a number of people write to me saying, enjoyed your book and why on earth did you stay married? And I think, well, you know, it's a complicated question. I'm not big on conclusions. I don't feel that that's where I need to take readers. I kind of want them to. to come to their own conclusion. And that means I have to be comfortable with many different conclusions. I mean, if you say to the reader, here's what it meant, you're controlling the narrative. I'm more comfortable saying, here's the story.

And there are probably a lot of different ways you can interpret this. and letting it speak for itself. Yeah. So telling the story with a beginning and middle and a rising action and all that and making, helping the feel like they've gone on a journey, those are the elements of story, but not giving them the moral at the end or the. Right.

And certainly, and I wrote in Joyride quite a bit about the challenge. of writing an ending and how there is this powerful instinct to say, in conclusion, this is what this meant. And I've sort of taught myself that in a way,

that's an assumption that I shouldn't be making anyway. I can't tell the reader, how this registers for them. Yeah. Nor do I think that's necessary. I feel that I can leave you hanging a little bit to say, and now what do you think? It's a little therapeutic, I guess, instead of, you know, you say to your shrink, what does it mean? And the shrink says, what do you mean?

What does it mean? I think that I've become very comfortable with leaving it linger and letting the question linger, which is what do you think this all means? Yeah. Rather than feeling the obligation to summarize. I it's it's tricky endings are really hard and you do feel like aren't I supposed to now tell you what it all meant yeah I'm literally so just as we're recording this I'm going to be taping my next stand-a special in about a month and I'm sort of like putting the finishing touches on it and I'm just struggling with the ending and to

figure out like how much do I need to tie the threads together? How much do I need to add a, you know, here's what this means to me or here's what it might mean to you. How much can I just like, I'll let the jokes land. It's funny front to back, right? I want to hang together. I want to have something to say. And how much do I need to decide that versus how much is that going to be implicit. I think it's a huge, well, one of the things that I wrote about in the book was the, there is, at the end of a story, there's a bit of tragedy, which is our relationship, me and the reader, is ending. And there's, that's something you often don't write about, which is we've been on this trip together, learning about Rin Tin, tin, or exploring the world of orchids.

And the end, part of what's going on is me saying goodbye to the reader, which is a very different thing than me telling you what was the meaning of the book. and so often my ear is a little more sort of tuned to the idea that I'm saying goodbye to you for the moment that we're now ending our relationship. It's a bit of a melancholy kind of vibe. Yeah. But there is something about the end of a book that feels, I feel, honestly, like I'm ending, a conversation with someone. So I turn away somewhat from this,

I've got to tell you what it all meant. Because I also feel like if I haven't already told you what it meant, it's kind of too late now to say, oh, and by the way, what this whole book meant, I should have been telling you that all along. Yeah. And so I treat the end more as a farewell. Yeah.

It's a different emphasis. It's a different state of mind where I really genuinely feel like I'm saying goodbye to you and that this particular trip we've taken together is ending and that I'm wishing you well and I'm hoping it meant something to you. But I'm not now I'm not thinking about telling you what it meant. Yeah. I mean, I guess at the end of a movie, the movie doesn't go, hey, did you notice there were themes of motherhood or whatever? Right. I mean, and if it did, you would be like, oh my God, that is heavy-handed. Yeah, like, I got it, man. Or I didn't get it.

You also think if you didn't get it by now, it's kind of too late to be telling you. And if you already got it, why do I have to tell you again? Yeah. But still, then there's the question of, okay, so what is the end? But why have an end? I mean, what is an end supposed to accomplish? And I was telling the anecdote and joyride about how I used to turn in my stories of the New Yorker and my editor would read it and then go, okay, really good. And I'm just going to chop off the last paragraph. I'd be like, what? The last paragraph, that was my sort of triumphant moment where I was telling what the story meant. And he'd say, well, yeah, you don't need that. And I found it so weird in the beginning. Yeah. And I would read these endings and think this is so abrupt. It's so strange.

I don't get it. There's no end. But it trained me out of the habit of feeling that I have to do the in conclusion. I mean, it's almost, you know, you go to a dinner and someone's giving the worst. speech in the world at the dinner. And when they go, and in conclusion, you feel like your heart's like both you're elated because they're about to finish talking, but also you think you're now going to tell me what you've been telling me for 45 minutes.

You're going to restate it. Yeah. It was already so boring. But, you know, it's not an easy thing to end. anything. And certainly a lead is really tough. I'm sure your first joke is like. I'm also stressing over that. Yeah. Yeah. But at least with a lead, you know what you're trying to do, which is you're trying to get people engaged. The real question is what's an end supposed to do? What is it's, what should it be accomplishing? And it's not to keep people engaged because

you're done. Yeah. But it has less of an obvious purpose. The lead is very purposeful. I mean, that's, you know exactly why you're putting everything into that first one minute exposure to your audience.

Yeah. You're, uh, this is genuinely very helpful for me creatively. Well, good. Because I am struggling over the end and I'm like, maybe the answer is to not struggle and just do less.

you know, and not try to bring it to a conclusion. I love the idea of a farewell. That's a very beautiful way to think about it. And, you know, we're coming to the end of this conversation. So let me close by asking, you know, there's a couple times in the book where you're like, I don't think I'll ever write another book and then you have an idea. You've been a writer at the New Yorker for quite a while. And a memoir is maybe a natural farewell itself in a way.

What do you feel about the future of your of your work? Is there more to come? Yeah. Well, I've got a couple of magazine pieces already in progress. But I'm also starting work on a new book. Yes. And it's so funny because literally every book I've written, I've thought, that's it. Yeah.

That's it. I'm never going to. And in the, you know, after I wrote this, I thought that does feel like a good way to say, okay, I'm done. Like, I'm really done. It's a retrospective. Yeah. And it is very much. I mean, it's meant to be.

But the problem is I stumbled on to a story idea that I kind of fell in love with. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, oh, you know, I really want to do this. So, like, it's such an interesting story. So there you go. Off on another adventure and quite different from my other book. books, which is great, you know, for fun, pretty different. Well, it's not so different, actually. You're not going to tell us anything about what it's like.

No, it's too early to really tell too much about it, but it's a profile of a building and a very interesting building. So, that is, honestly, that is the best possible tease you could give. That sounds so fascinating. Based on, you know, the way that you've covered subjects in the past, I can't wait to find out what it is and how you move through it. I'm actually really excited about it. Well, it's going to be interesting because, you know, on one hand, you have this, like, inanimate thing. Yeah.

But obviously, buildings are animated by all the people who've lived in them and who live in them currently. And it's a great story. It's a really cool story. So I'm excited. And, you know, each time I begin thinking, this will be easy. Probably knock it off in a couple of months, you know. And then eight years later, I'm like, why did I think this was going to be easy? It's like the hardest book I've ever written. So, check in with me. Let's hope it's not eight years. years. But, you know, it's, it won't be easy, but I think it'll be really interesting. I can't wait to read it. Oh, thank you. And I can't thank you enough for coming on, Susan. It's been delayed. Well, thank you. This has been my pleasure and such an interesting conversation. Oh, thank you. Well, my God, thank you once again to Susan for coming on the show. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I obviously did. I think I couldn't really hide how beside myself I was at the chance to talk to her. If you want to

check out any of her wonderful books. You can head to our bookshop, our special bookshop, at factuallypod.com slash books. Every book you buy there supports, not just this show, but your local bookstore as well. And, of course,

you can check out Susan's substack wherever you get substacks, if that's where you like to engage. If you want to support this show, you can, of course, do so at patreon.com. I'm, of course, do so at patreon.com slash Adam Conover. Five bucks a month gets you every episode of the show, ad-free.

For 15 bucks a month, I will read your name in the credits. And I'm going to do that right now. Let's pull up. Some of these folks, I have to log into Patreon. God damn it. All right, let's do it. Let's not cut this.

I want people to hear how time-consuming this is. The effort that I go to to read all the names. All right, here we go. We got, I want to thank Yuri Lowenthal, Adam P, James Forsler, Aros Harmon, Dylan, Roy, Jake Callan. Hey, look at distraction, Uber Elder Avaro Egg Burger. Thank you so much for supporting the show at the $15 a month level. Of course, we'd love to have you however you want to support.

head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover. If you want to come see me on the road, once again, I am going to be in Louisville, Kentucky. Excuse me, Louisville, Kentucky. I apologize for mispronounced again. Houston, Texas, San Francisco, California from the 19th through 21st of February, where I'll be recording my new stand-up special

at the Punchline Comedy Club after that La Jolla and Kansas City, Missouri. Head to Adamconover.net for all those tickets and tour dates. The show is produced by Tony Wilson and Sam Rodman. Thank you to everybody here at HeadGum from, making the show possible. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time on Factually. That was a headgum podcast. Hi, I'm Drew Offalo. And I'm Dason Offalo. And we host the HeadGum podcast, Two Idiot Girls. Each episode we're discussing plenty of topics that you

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