Factually! with Adam Conover - The Attack on Trans Rights with Shelby Chestnut

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

It’s a very scary time to be a trans person in America. An unprecedented onslaught of transphobic legislation is being pushed in state houses across the country, including more than two dozen bills that would to restrict access to healthcare for trans people. This week, Adam is joined by the executive director of the Transgender Law Center, Shelby Chestnut, to discuss the state of trans rights in America, and the legal challenges that trans people and their loved ones face. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So if all of that sounds good, if you want a big box of delicious snacks like this for yourself, use the code factually for $15 off your first order at Bokksu.com. That's code factually for $15 off your first order on Bokksu.com. I don't know the truth. I don't know the way. I don't know what to think. I don't know what to say. Yeah, but that's alright. Yeah, that's okay. I don't know anything. Hello and welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Conover. Thank you so much for joining me on the show once again. Before we get into this week's incredible interview with an amazing expert, I want to remind you that I am going on tour this year. From March 23rd through 25th, I'll be in Austin, Texas. From May 5th through 6th, I'll be in San Francisco. Through May 11th through 13th, I'll be back in Texas in San Antonio.

And from June 8th through 10th, I will be in Batavia, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. If you live in those places and you want to come see me, head to adamconover.net for tickets. I hope to see you there. I'm doing a brand new hour of stand-up. You're going to love it. I would love to give you a hug and a handshake after every single show. Hope you come out. And by the way, if you want to support this show, as always, you can do so on Patreon.

Head to patreon.com slash adamconover to get every episode of this show ad-free, plus a bunch of other bonus goodies. Thank you so much to everybody who supports. All right, this week, we're talking about civil rights, specifically trans rights. You know, it's a very scary time to be a transgender person or someone who cares about and loves transgender people in America today. There has been an unprecedented onslaught of transphobic legislation being pushed by anti-trans legislators in state houses across the country. There are bathroom bans, attempts to outlaw drag performances,

which by the way are not an example of trans people anyway, but that's neither here nor there. And there are efforts to stop discussions of LGBTQ issues in schools. Worst of all, there are more than two dozen bills pending to restrict access to health care for trans people in 11 states. Republican legislators are literally trying to criminalize being trans full stop. And you know, the fight for civil rights, especially the fight for LGBTQ civil rights, has been a long one in America with a lot of really dark periods. But still, this hateful, But still, this hateful, concerted effort to demean and destroy the lives of fellow Americans just because of who they are, just for wanting to live openly as themselves, is still shocking to me on some level. Because it felt like, there was a moment that it felt like, just a few years ago, that this was something we had moved past. You know, it feels like we're being dragged backwards into a society that is less tolerant, less free,

and more hateful. It's shocking and stunning. And I'm extremely troubled by it and extremely angry about it. So this is a topic that I really desperately wanted to do on the show. And I'm so grateful that we got an incredible guest to help me piece through it. Their name is Shelby Chestnut, and they're the executive director of the Transgender Law Center, the largest trans-led civil rights organization in the country. So I think it's safe to say that they know the real deal about how trans rights are being attacked in America and what we can all do to fight back. So without further ado, please welcome Shelby Chestnut. Shelby, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. So look, I've been tracking with great concern all of the anti-trans legislation that's been put forward over the past couple months or past

couple years, frankly. But this is just me as someone who's reading the news. You're the executive director of the Transgender Law Center. How does it look from your vantage point? Where are we on trans rights in America? Well, I think you're right to be concerned. Well, I think you're right to be concerned. We have over 300 anti-LGBT bills introduced in state legislatures, and I believe over 130 anti-trans bills introduced in state legislatures around the country this year. And it's only the middle of February, so that's a month and a half into most legislative sessions. Wow. Yeah. So it's a busy time. You know, the thing I try to explain to people is these are really concerning and they have deadly consequences in some states, unfortunately. And we also know that many of these states will not successfully pass anti-trans bills.

will not successfully pass anti-trans bills. So I am both, I think, worried for our future, but also just super fortunate to work every day with trans people working to make everyone in this world safer and supported, but specifically transgender people. So it's both an exciting time and maybe too busy of a time for us to keep up with everything. You know, state legislators can be crazy people. And, you know, it's very easy to simply, you know, write a bill and put it forward. It's a lot harder to get it passed. But are there any specific bills that are being passed or have been passed that you're or particular states that you're concerned about that are examples that are like really live concerns? live concerns? Yeah, I think, you know, there's a number of states that we prioritize on an annual basis to look at. Obviously, Texas is a state that we're really focused on this year. They have an alternate every other year legislative session. And you might recall last year, they didn't even have a legislative session and their governor Abbott with the Department of Justice introduced sort of guidance on transgender people and the criminalization of transgender kids and their parents. So they basically were looking to investigate parents who were providing supportive

care to their transgender children, which, you know, in a country where so many trans kids do not have supportive homes to focus then on criminalizing the parents that are supportive of their transgender kids seems pretty ludicrous and really damaging to the sort of health and well-being of both Texans, but setting a national precedent. You then sort of saw the governor of Florida seek similar actions, and Florida has unfortunately passed just a sloth of bad things, you know. And then something that happened this week, unfortunately, is South Dakota passed a transgender youth health care ban, basically saying, and the governor signed it into law, saying effective July 1st of this year, transgender kids will no longer be eligible to receive transition-related care. So whether

that's hormone blockers or hormone replacement therapy, sorry, you need to, they're basically forcing young people to detransition. And I imagine the next phase would be to sort of criminalize and be punitive towards caregivers and family members. So you're seeing these very regressive policies. And I think what's hard is so much of it is actual just misinformation. Lawmakers who know very little about what it means to be transgender are spreading misinformation everywhere. And this idea that, you know, transgender kids are not protected and it's their somehow Republicans' duty to protect them and make sure that they don't have access to the things that we know to be life-saving. So it's like if you actually, if some of these lawmakers like, I don't know,

read a book or talk to people or you know even talk to trans kids they'd realize that so much of what they're trying to control is really harmful that it's not true what they're saying about transgender kids and their parents and whatnot so i mean for us i can it might be helpful if I sort of take it back to a couple of years ago and how we got here. So you might remember 2016, Barack Obama was the president. North Carolina introduced House Bill 2, which was the first sort of big, high-profile bathroom bill limiting transgender people from using a bathroom of the gender that they identify as. That wasn't successful.

Across the country, states tried to introduce similar as. That wasn't successful across the country. States tried to introduce similar bills. Those weren't successful. There was a national outcry and a boycott. I remember the bill. I don't remember the final status of it, but it was sort of widely seen as a failure for that reason. Yeah. And then, you know, you had a lot of states that tried to do similar things. So they started with bathrooms, then they went to kids in sports so trans kids in sports i mean like what is like more un-american than trying to limit kids doing sports i mean it's like the regardless of your gender sport doing sports and team stuff is like what you learn to how to i don't know work with others um certainly it was like a guiding thing for me as a

young person. I was a big softball player. And then those didn't work. So now they're targeting healthcare. And I think what's concerning is they're targeting healthcare and then not only limiting people's access to healthcare, young people, they're continuing to raise the age in which they want to limit it. So some of these states are passing things that go up to 21. They're going to push to 25. These are people that are adults, one. But then they're also criminalizing the very people who are going to provide that medical care or the people who are charged with caring for them as parents or caregivers, whatnot. So it's like every year there's some new egregious thing added to the pot and it's not successful and then sometimes it is because i think it's sort of against the backdrop of the

sort of what is the far right doing right now and there's like sex of republicans there's like the regular republicans and then the megaGA Republicans. It's just, every day we're sort of reading the news, like, is this really possible that this is happening? So a lot of what we do at TLC is work with leaders on the ground to be like, hey, what do you need right now? Whether that's communication support, whether that's training on how to talk to legislators, whether that's connecting them to to talk to legislators, whether that's connecting them to resources around the country, thinking about their safety overall. So it's a pretty fun time. And then we do impact litigation. So we get to put forward legislation to protect transgender people in key states. But when those rights are violated, we also get to take them to court

and ensure people's rights are protected. Yeah. I mean, where do you feel this push against trans rights came from? Because look, my, you know, I was born in the 80s. I lived through the mainstream acceptance of gay rights in America. When I was in high school, I had one friend who, I had one out lesbian friend in my high school. And then by the time I was in my late 20s or my early 30s, we had the Obergefell Supreme Court decision. I was like, wow, what an incredibly fast transformation that I went through just seeing people's attitudes change. And from my perspective, I was like,

you know, the T was in LGBT movement the entire time, right? You know, I was like, hey, this is, these folks are on the bus, you know, and this radical wave of acceptance throughout mainstream America seemed to include trans folks. And that's why, you know, when there was that giant pushback against the North Carolina bathroom bill, it made sense to me that there would be. And so, you know, these like really some of these really draconian laws that are literally banning private health care services from providing health care that had been provided, you know, gender affirming care has been around for decades.

It it seems sort of sudden and surprising. Maybe it's less surprising to you than to me, but what do you credit it to? I mean, again, I think it's a lot of people are, it's almost as if like they take one issue and cross that word out and then make it, you know, we've seen the major gutting of abortion rights in this country in the last year and a half. It's almost as if now they've just said, well, we're going to cross out abortion and we're going to instead put transgender health care or transgender people. And I think it's. They're using a sort of fear based mentality to demonize, criminalize, spread misinformation around a group that a lot of people don't know you know i think you and i are similar ages i was born in 1981 um i came out very young both as queer and as trans super supportive family um and you know my experience growing up was a lot of pushback

and i think you know we have seen some, certainly with like, marriage access being sort of law of the land. We've actually had some good Supreme Court decisions regarding transgender rights as it relates to employment. You know, there's some federal recognition of LGBT people. But I think part of it is people fear what they don't know. And when they don't know something, they create all kinds of myths and legends and misinformation. So if you think about it generally, like how many, what do you know about transgender people as like a cis person is what I ask people often. And a lot of times people's first sort of understanding of transgender people is from TVs, sort of understanding of transgender people is from TVs, movies, shows, those sorts of things.

And it's often the like damsel in distress, the sex worker. That's the sort of original image we see. Particularly if you grew up in the 80s, there's a great documentary that Laverne Cox produced called Disclosure. And it's talking about the sort of history of transgender people in television and film. And, you know, being a child of the 80s, like I realized so many of my favorite films and TV shows, all were derogatory to trans people. And at the time, I was like, Oh, whoa, I didn't know, you know, when I was a trans person. And then fast forward, it's like we've seen sort of more, more general, general acceptance, I think, think but it's i would say greater visibility not acceptance so you're seeing more transgender people whether it's the television show pose which was like critically acclaimed super successful an amazing show if you haven't watched it

you also see folks like laverne cox on the cover of time magazine the transgender tipping point um but at the same time the story that isn't getting told is the deadly violence that transgender people are facing and the sort of what we would call social determinants of health. So whether that's jobs, housing, food, all of that, transgender people have much less access than any other peers of their social circles. So they're much more likely to experience things and experience discrimination. And then you sort of add race on top of that. And it's like, you look at the intersections of racism and misogyny and

homophobia and transphobia. Trans people are really sort of the crux of it all and experiencing the most. But I think part of it is people can't understand that young people today are so much more expansive with gender identity and sexual orientation. You know, I don't know if you have kids or your friends have kids, but it's like, they're very clear um we need to be expansive and accepting and welcoming to people whereas you know i grew up in a generation that was like there's two genders and that's all that there is and yeah i think because of that there's like the adult hysteria almost of like oh we talk about this so much it's like so visible our kids are going to become trans

it's like well your kids might very well be trans or become trans. And if anything, we need to just be supporting them. So you have a lot of lawmakers who have decided that this can be a wedge issue that they'll win by talking about and pushing, and they don't actually know anything about it. That's the really wild part of it to me. It's like, they don't actually know anything about it. That's, that's the really wild part of it to me. It's like, they don't actually know transgender people. They don't actually know what they need. And, you know, transition related care is like a term that we hear a lot. And what I like to say to people is like, everyone needs gender affirming care. Like, you know, you go to the doctor and you need gender affirming care because you have specific things going on with your body. I go to the doctor, I need gender affirming care because you have specific things going on with your body. I go to the doctor.

I need gender affirming care because I have specific things going on with my body. It's like literally we all need gender affirming care. It's just going to the doctor and knowing that I can tell them the things that are going on with me, ask them for the support that I need, and they can continue to monitor my health and well-being based on those facts. them for the support that I need and they can continue to monitor my health and well-being based on those facts. But somehow it's like this whole idea that the doctors are doing terrible things and we have to protect everyone. And it's like, that's just not really what it's like. I mean, I think everyone right now is struggling to get medical care in a society where we've seen the sort of failures of the medical system in the last three years. I don't know. I can't get into my doctor to save my life. I don't know about you, but

yeah, it's like a three month wait. Yeah. It's hard enough already. And now to have legal barriers put in place as well. I mean, tell me about the, you know, we were talking about places like Texas and South Dakota for, for, uh, you know, we were talking about places like Texas and South Dakota for, you know, trans folks who are seeking gender affirming care and parents of, you know, trans kids who are trying to support their kids. What are the specific barriers that they're facing right now? Because a lot of times I read what's in the headlines. Again, you know, you said a year ago in Texas, but, you know, it falls out of the headlines.

I'm sure you're tracking it much more closely. Well, I think what's happening is one big thing will be in the headline and then all these states sort of copycat it and then creates this sort of mass upheaval of very copycat legislation. And to be clear, it's like a few far right lawmakers that are pushing these things, whether at the Senate level, whether at the legislative level, whether at the government level, you know, it's state specific. I think the thing right now that would for me be really helpful to hear from is what is the federal government doing to sort of calm this? Because,

you know, we have a super supportive, affirming federal government. They care about many of the issues that I'm sure you're talking with people that come on your show with that I'm working on behalf of. But they also could just stop some of this stuff and say, no, like, we're not going to allow these things to continue to move forward. we're not going to allow these things to continue to move forward. Parents shouldn't be facing potential child abuse charges for supporting their 10 year old transgender kid who is going to school like everyone else has their annual checkups like everyone else. Yeah. And the only difference is they might be talking with their health care provider that, oh, sooner rather than later, I'm going to go through puberty. What are my options to ensure that puberty looks like something healthy and affirming for me as a transgender person?

I mean, let's just be clear. Puberty sucks for everyone. We've all gone through it at some stage in our life. Some people have gone through it twice, like myself. It is hard. Could you imagine being in middle school and being transgender and the normal middle school dramas? Cause that was enough. And then add onto it, lawmakers and school officials are trying to basically say you're not allowed to exist.

I mean, we're adding to these numbers of high suicide rates, low college attendance rates, low family acceptance rates. It's like, I always- To be in a situation where your school that is supposed to be caring for you and educating you is literally treating you with suspicion or hostility, just like that basic emotion, in addition to whatever the actual legal barriers are. But I can imagine how many trans students are facing that sort of environment. That would be incredibly hard.

for special treatment here. We're literally asking that we include everyone, all citizens, all genders in our curriculum and in our learnings about things. Like imagine what a world we'd live in if we actually just took the time to be educated on what other people are experiencing and the histories that have gotten us here. So for me, I think what's exciting about these moments that are so hard in politics is the ways that we can see the intersectional connections, whether we're talking about reproductive health, whether we're talking about trans rights, whether we're talking about critical race theory, whether we're talking about sort of voter suppression issues. Like these issues are all connected. Yeah, they're coming for everybody. Truly. And so for us at like TLC Trans Law Center, what's exciting is we have so many different

projects that focus on different areas of work that all come together. Like we have our we have a project that's one of our newer projects called the Disability Project. So it's working to sort of promote and understand issues that are impacting transgender people with disabilities. And we're doing we're launching a needs assessment survey on that. We have a project called Positively Trans. So it works to support the intersections of trans people who are living with HIV and creating both community, but then demanding policy change on to some extent global levels

we have a partnership with some organizations that's doing work at the southern border which is helping transgender migrants seeking safety and asylum in the united states we have like a policy team we have a litigation team so we it's just like amazing to see how these issues overlap yeah and um we we are not a single issue sort of society and i think that that's what some of lawmakers are trying to make that it's like well we only want a society that's going to serve a very select few people but hey turns out this country is really saying, no, we're not a single issue country. Yeah. All of us have the same issues and we're interconnected.

So as much as some of these bills, like every day something gets introduced, I'm like, did that really just happen? It's also just so special to see the way people are uniting together to sort of talk about the intersections of these issues. Yeah. Well, on that note, we got to take a really quick break. We'll be right back with more Shelby Chestnut. Okay, we're back with Shelby Chestnut. Before the break, you were talking about where is the federal government on this? And I'd love to talk about that a little bit more. It kind of reminds me of how the federal government has been slow on every civil rights issue in black Americans, you know, the, the, the federal, you know, you have a federal government run by, you know, JFK and LBJ where, you know, where it says they're allied with civil rights leaders and they're pleading with those presidents, please, you know, send to the national guard or do whatever you have to do. Federal government is reluctant to, you know, start a war with a governor who is, you know, chosen this like minority group to

oppress, right? As like a political issue. It seems like a very age old story in America. I don't know if you see that connection, but how do we, you know, how do we ultimately win that battle and get the federal government to protect Americans as it's meant to do? People have become the wedge issue. And I think overall, majority of Americans support transgender people. That said, we don't have federal protections. But what we do have is a Supreme Court win that basically the Bostock decision through the Supreme Court, so it was the transgender employment case that basically said transgender

people are a protected class. So what we could do right now and what the federal government should be doing is ensuring that all federal agencies are implementing the sort of wins of that Supreme Court case in all federal agencies. And I don't want to say that the feds are doing nothing. There's amazing work happening in different sort of sectors of the government like the treasury department has pulled um a number of lgbt groups into the build back better america whatever i can't remember what it's called the covid relief funds um and sort of building back the economy you know and there's amazing people in positions of leadership throughout the government who are LGBT. But at a certain point, we need to sort of stop playing to the far right Republicans and say enough is enough. Like, this is a country where people should be protected.

And we're going to implement these changes. And we're going again this Crossroads for how do we deal with the immigration crisis in this country and it's simple it's let people in who are seeking safety and and a new life support their family, whether it's here or abroad into this country. I don't know if you know this, but like most transgender people that come into this country seeking asylum. So they're fleeing violence and persecution in their countries of origin. They're coming here because it's safer for them, which is slightly ironic seeing as how the federal government doesn't really protect transgender people and most state legislatures are actively seeking to dehumanize

and criminalize transgender people yeah but it is safer in in many senses um they're often placed in immigration detention and these are people who are literally just seeking safety and when they come into this country and they say i am coming here to seek safety because I am transgender, they are placed in prison. And why would we be doing that? I think really easily and quickly, the federal government could end the use of detention for people seeking immigration relief in this country. They're choosing not to. But especially transgender people who, you know, there's many studies pointing to the fact that transgender people are not safe in prisons and detention centers. They face sexual violence from other inmates.

They face sexual violence and discrimination from guards who are hired to protect them. They're often placed in solitary confinement because they are not safe from other populations. So if those are the conditions that people are living in while they're seeking safety in this country, we have a problem on our hands because they could, there's many community groups, there's many family members, there's many just people who are willing to support people coming to this country seeking safety. And, and that's very easy.

They could just let people come in, um, not rocket science, but here we are. We continue to have a crisis at the Southern border. We continue to have a crisis for people seeking safety in this country. I mean, you get my point. Yeah. I also wonder if, you know, you said that there are really, really excellent public servants or people in the government, you know, placed throughout who the definition of gender or sex is like very, very different from agency to agency that like, you know, how, how those terms are mediated, like depends on whether you're talking about a prison or a hospital or a DMV or, you know, like the, the ways that we divide people up or the ways that we enforce, you know, a binary or, or et cetera, can be really different from organization to organization. Um, and it makes me wonder how many, like, you know, quiet victories it's possible to

have that, uh, you know, where like, uh, uh, you know, I assume that's something that you work on, like making it possible for trans people to, you know, participate in society in a particular area that is like not hotly in the news, but, you know, that, you know, good, good change can be made at. Is that question vague enough? Yeah, it's vague enough. I mean, like, I'll give you an example. Like yesterday, there was an executive order that President Biden signed, and it was looking at increasing funds to underserved populations through different grant, federal grant funding, which was huge. And it prioritized racial justice, which obviously is a priority in this country. But it also includes LGBT people in a variety of other groups. And it's

like things like that, where it's like people explicitly naming that these groups are underserved is one avenue. But then two, linking back to the sort of implementation of the Vostok Supreme Court ruling, that's where it's critical because it basically lays a framework that's like this could be implemented across all federal agencies trickling down to the state. I mean, we know how the government works. It's like the feds are up here. They make decisions, trickles to the states, the states can states can implement it you know we have some sort of rogue agents in the state governments um but they're they're not all like that i mean it's all comes down to money it's like you got to do certain things to get money from the feds at a

state level um so it's like in in those ways um you know and us, I think what is kind of just amazing to see is how transgender people, like, aren't just both in an advocate role, but are in all sects of society. You know, we have people in film and television, we have people in classrooms, we have people working in nonprofits, we have people working for corporations. And many groups are coming out proactively to sort of say like we not only stand with transgender people but we're committing to supporting sort of transgender people in employment because people should be free to do what they want to do you know whether that's go to school whether that's have a job go to college and, again, we have a lot of lessons to learn from young people here. And I think sometimes we approach supporting young people like, oh, we have to protect them.

And it's like, no, we need to show up for them because they really have the answers right now. I mean, you talk to any young person and they're like 10 times smarter than I am and have like figured out everything they need to know about the society on Tik TOK or YouTube or whatever. And they can give you like a PhD in whatever topic you're wanting to learn about that day. So, yeah. I mean, there's that necessity. I, you know, the, some of the trans folks in my life have talked about the necessity of becoming an expert in your own healthcare, in your own, you know, legal rights and things like that, which is very impressive, right? I'm like, like, profoundly impressed by my friends who have had that, have that ability. But that's also a huge burden to place on people to, to ask someone

to be an expert in their own health care. That's not a burden that I have, you know, that I have to deal with. I get to go to the doctor and say, sure, whatever you say, you know. Yeah. And I think that that to me is kind of what some of this comes down to is I think so much of this legislation, it's it's seeking to drive people underground or behind the scenes and live in the shadows. And I think what what LGBT folks and trans people specifically have been doing for generations is to say, we're not going to live in the shadows. And like, we don't need rights to ensure our survival. And, you know, I think often about COVID and what COVID did to so much

of society, we sort of function as this singular society and sort of survival of yourself. And, function as this singular society and sort of survival of yourself. But we all lived in neighborhoods and had neighbors and family members and the communal sense that I think COVID forced the U.S. to sort of be part of in a way that it doesn't always like to be, for me, was not really a change from how I've seen LGBT people and specifically trans communities look out for each other forever. Like trans people will have had mutual aid networks in place since time was created because that's what they need to survive. So this like very new phenomenon

that a lot of people were thinking about, like, oh, I actually know my neighbor now, like I offered to go get them groceries because they're 85 trans people have been doing that forever um because no one else was doing it for them so to me it's almost like how do we have this sort of social reckoning as a whole um and maybe not go back to the same things that we've done for generations as we sort of re-emerge i don't know if we're in a post-covid society it just seems to be something we're living with now, but like saying hi to your neighbor and actually checking on them. Yeah. No, I mean, I'm from a small town, so that's like something I do naturally,

but it's a novel concept to a lot, particularly those in cities like, Oh, I don't even know my neighbor, but we've been next door to each other for 25 years. Yeah. So. I mean, you said that, that change is really profound in that sort of injection of that part of the culture into a more, you know, the into the wider culture has been really powerful. You said that trans folks are refusing to live in the shadows. And it makes me wonder if, you know, what we're seeing now, all these, you know, anti, all this anti-trans legislation being proposed or passed, et cetera. I mean, if this is a backlash to the increased

visibility, the increased refusal to, to live in the shadows. And that makes me wonder which is more powerful, you know, cause the backlash is frightening and there isn't a huge counter to it. You know, Biden isn't up there at the state of the union saying, Hey, we're gonna, you know, because the backlash is frightening and there isn't a huge counter to it. You know, Biden isn't up there at the State of the Union saying, hey, we're going to, you know, like full throatedly protect the rights of of trans Americans and trans people. But, you know, at the same time, I do have to believe that sometimes often the backlash is weaker than the original movement. Not always, but I mean, do you have a do you have a feeling of optimism about that or? I mean, totally. I mean, it's we're we're not going anywhere. We've been here since really time was created. You know, I'm here. I'm at a conference in California and I'm in San Francisco and I'm in the

transgender district it's the only transgender district i think in the world um and you know trans advocates who really have fought for generations in san francisco to make sure that all transgender people around the country but specifically transgender people here have rights and protections you know san francisco has some of the most progressive policies in the country in the world for transgender people there's a transgender district and it's like you know I mean it's both physically and visually there and it's not only transgender people walking around and to see the work that they're doing um you know in a group here um that's been here for years working with um incarcerated transgender people and sort of abolitionist framework they just bought a

building in san francisco you know to keep the longevity of their organization and like that to me is that's what happens when you invest in sort of trans futures and build that trans power is it becomes a fabric of society that is no longer sort of a fringe issue or we're over here and you're over there. It's like, no, we're just, we're in this together. Yeah. Because, you know, people have this idea that like transgender people are asking for special rights. Like, no, we're literally just asking for the same rights that most people have um you know and to be clear there's a hierarchy and sort of oppression of of rights in this country um but we just want everyone to be protected and to live authentic lives yeah well we have to take one more break We'll be right back in a moment with Shelby Chestnut.

OK, we're back with Shelby Chestnut. Let's talk about media depictions a little bit like I have to say that, you know, despite these really relentless attacks from, you know, really highly placed right wing politicians who very clearly are using trans people as political weapons, as wedge issues. You get the sense that they don't even really care that much. They just figured out that they can get a lot of headlines and et cetera off of it. That, you know, the the reporting about trans people in mainstream news outlets has been like not as, I don't know, strong or well-informed as I would like. How do you, how do you find it? Yeah, it's, it's abysmal. Um, you know, I mean, it's, I think people are taking steps to ensure the voices of transgender people and there's amazing sort of leaders in transgender news, press podcasts, you know, I mean, you can get all

kinds of information, but let's talk for a minute about the New York Times. They consistently run anti-trans articles by opinion writers for the last couple of years in a moment where they're a national newspaper that people go to for news. And this week, over, I think, 100 organizations, 200 current and former contributors to the New York Times came out in opposition to say, like, enough is enough. Stop allowing anti-trans rhetoric to be put in your papers and broadcast globally to some extent. And what did they do the next day they published an article talking about how they're in defense of jk rollins yeah it's like come on you know and listen i love playing wordle well i times almost every day you know it is my source of news but i

think the cooking app is really good unfortunately it's like a good source of i have to say their their recipe for the brown butter rice crispy treats it's the best one if you haven't tried it um you know but that said i think they have an obligation to really be being pro trans right now and sort of debunking this misinformation that is coming out there, but unfortunately, they're adding to it. And when you have this piece of like, well, this transgender kid, you know, like damsel in distress, it's like, no, like, could you imagine how much courage and clarity you need to have as a 10-year-old to know that you're transgender and to articulate that to your parents, to your classmates, to your teachers. And you have to go out every single day and live in a world where people will say things to you. People will harm you. You might get discriminated against at the doctor, at school. You might be told you can't use a bathroom.

Like, if anything, right now what we should be doing is creating increased safety measures so those kids can go to school safely. Because I always share this story, and it's sort of like cheesy, but some years ago, I was in Texas, 2017. It was one of their first anti-trans bills that was introduced. I was at like some sort of cookout convening. I was new to the Transgender Law Center. And I was just so excited to be in Texas with trans Texans and parents and family and friends. And there was like a lot of coalition work between immigration groups and trans groups at that time because they were both facing anti-trans bills. And this young girl comes up to me and my name tag said TLC. That's sort of what we're

abbreviated as. And she goes, oh, you work for TLC. I was like, yeah, I help transgender people. And she said to me, oh, I thought you worked for the television company that has the dinosaur show. And, you know, it was this moment where I was like, oh, this like young, this eight-year-old trans kid is more interested in the dinosaur show on the i don't even know what tlc stands for but the learning channel yeah the learning channel not tender loving care um but that's what her priority was and that to me is like i say that because it's like what kind of world could we have if trans kids could just be kids and they could play and they could go to school and being trans is like secondary to who they are you know i don't wake up every day

and be like the only thing that i am is a transgender person uh you know i wake up just like everyone else i get coffee i'm like oh what's in the news today you know what's the weather like yeah but this idea that, we've got some agenda and we're trying to convert the masses. It's just, it's just not true. Um, and particularly with young people, it just feels unusually cruel to be targeting children. Um, when really all of us should be protecting young people, everyone. Yeah. And when you look at the cut, when you look at the weight of the coverage, you know, it's it's article after article of whose perspective is centered and whose, you know, who whose harm is centered. Like, I understand that. Look, there's going to be you know,

there's going to be parents in America who have concerns. It takes them a little while to get with it. You know, they they write like that's the type of person that exists in America. That person's concern can be newsworthy. Right. But after seeing article after article that that centers that person. Oh, my kids said they're trans and I was so worried and upset and I didn't know if it was right. And when you see after you see an article 10 like that, you're like, where's the article about the kid? You know, where's the article?

It reminds me of, you know, I follow homelessness coverage here in Los Angeles a lot. And it's like, there are neighbors that are afraid of homeless encampments. They see an encampment, it makes them afraid, you know? And that's a real fear. And so if you're a journalist, it might make sense to occasionally write an article,

hey, a neighbor is afraid. Neighbors say they're afraid. But if that's the only article you write, and you never write the article about the people who live in the encampment, who are the ones who are actually at risk of violence, and the people whose tents are being set on fire by arsonists, the people who are being murdered, those are the people who are really being harmed. If you're only centering the people who are like feeling a little bit afraid inside their houses, you're doing a disservice to the truth

and you're doing a disservice to the rights of the people who need their stories told. And that's what I see so much in the media is it's not just the individual story, it's the centering of the same concerned, oh, I'm just a little concerned parent over and over and over again that is missing the deeper, more important story about the person who actually is vulnerable. Yeah. No, I mean, that's completely true.

Like we don't highlight the support of parents who, you know, they had a kid who was clinically depressed, not wanting to go to school, didn't feel comfortable. And then the second they were able to articulate like, hey, I think I'm transgender. And the parents did the work, the hard work, you know, to figure out what it means to support their transgender kid. That they're thriving in school, their grades go up, their social interactions go up, you know, but we're also creating conditions in these states where people are fearing for their safety as parents, but their child safety, if they do speak out in support of them. And so that's where it, to me, goes back to this, like we can't create conditions where people have to go underground and live in the shadows yeah for just living their truth i mean yeah it's not it's not anything fancy or special it's just like oh hey i i know i'm transgender i think there's probably some resources

that i can get and to be clear like a lot of young kids, it's a social transition. So it's like, you know, I'll give myself as an example. I was born, I was assigned female at birth and very young. I dressed like my brothers. I act like my brothers. I like begged my mom to get vans. My brothers had vans. So we all had the same color vans and she would just embroider our names in the backs because we all had the same size for a while so you didn't like wear the wrong kid's shoe and it was like things like that that i could wear vans like my brothers that made me feel like oh okay like i fit in or you know i remember um I loved clothes as a kid, but you might recall this if we're born in the 80s when Mossimo was like a big fancy brand and then they were bought by Target. But I wanted the Mossimo jeans before Target bought Mossimo.

And I like I mowed a lot of lawns to buy those Mossimo jeans from the boys department. Let's just say that. I mean, but like that's like for me what it was like being a trans kid you know i didn't have the words necessarily but like i wanted to dress like a boy i wanted to do boy activities you know and that may look different for every kid and then there's like a lot of kids that don't want any of that they just like okay gender is a construct Like let's deconstruct it and create something new entirely. You know, I think everyone should just have that expression to figure out what fits them. Yeah. And it's, it's a wonderful thing that, you know, more kids are,

are having that opportunity, not as many as, as should, but, or, you know, more kids are having that opportunity, not as many as should, but more kids are being welcomed in that way. You said that folks can look for resources. What are the resources available to kids or parents of transgender kids in some of these really restrictive states and, you know, for kids and parents in places like Texas and Florida, like how, what are the resources that are available to them and what help can they get? Yeah, I'll give you, I'll lift up an organization that I think is just doing critical work and they're kind of approaching it from multi angles. So that's called the Transgender Education Network of Texas, AKA TENT. And they do sort of policy advocacy with transgender people, adults and young people. And then they also have like a parent support network. So it's people who,

you know, they didn't know anything about this. Their kids said, hey, I'm trans. And now there's a network of parents just working to support each other. They're doing amazing work. There's national organizations out there. You know, there's all kinds of online chat groups. You can always go to transgenderlawcenter.org and just learn about our resources and support. Because for us, we do a lot of work just generally within trans community. But then we have a partnership and have for many years with the Gender Sexuality Alliance, the GSA network, and it's called Truth. It's our trans youth project. So we work to pull trans youth together out of community building and lifting up of each other's voices

and young people get to meet and build together, which like, is just so critical. And those are young people from all across the country. And they have a couple of other different initiatives with trans young people, which I just feel so humbled when I get to be in space with young leaders. You know, I'm at this national LGBT conference right now and seeing young people walk around the conference hallways and like go to these workshops. It's like my life would have been pretty amazing had I been able to attend something like that as a young person.

Yeah. You know, I came up in a time pre-internet. I remember I used to go to the record store in the town I grew up in and they had a lavender magazine and they would have LGBT coffee shops. And I would like take the bus really far to go to these like, you know, LGBT coffee shops, which like, I was just hungry for information. I'm like, you know, you had to find beans then. And now it's like, you can just go on the internet and find anything. Yeah. I, I often, I often have the same thought. I mean, as a straight cis person,

that my life, well, I'm envious of kids now because my life would have been richer had I had that experience, had I had those peers and those friends and been a part of that culture. It was a more sort of impoverished time in that way. The scope of experience was more limited and what a in that way. Uh, you know, the scope of, of experience was more limited and, and, you know, what a shame that was. And it's such a, to me, it's such a, a gift to, to, you

know, now be alive at a time when, when so many more people are expressing themselves and I have so many friends who are, and I can, you know, sort of partake in and experience that. Yeah. Well, and, you know, I think that that's where like the far right and this, like, you know, you're forcing kids to become things that they don't, they don't have the ability to decide. It's like one young people can decide what they want to decide and we should support that. But also it's not like something that you're just going to like randomly decide to take on, you know, it's like to to take on you know it's like to what you're saying it's like i have friends of all different social circles and to me it's like

we all have different experiences but the common thread is that we like enjoy spending time together and you know i learn things from all kinds of people um it doesn't mean i'm gonna become them if i spend time with them yeah it's It's simple. You know, like that's the thing that's hard. It's just like, really, this is like what we're debating. Yeah. I mean, it seems like such a fundamental, you know, normie American value, you know, freedom, freedom of personal expression to be who you are. It's very basic when you get down to it, is what we're talking about. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing.

It's like, what we do at TLC is, like, we keep transgender people alive and thriving. That's our mission, you know? And that means, like, we're rooted in certain things, but, like, we want everyone to be alive and thriving. Yeah. want we want everyone to be alive and thriving yeah we don't have like a secret agenda or i don't know trying to convert someone into something it's just like people know their trance and they face a lot of barriers in doing that you know and i i'm thankful every day that i had a supportive family um i experienced a ton of bullying and a lot of really shitty things in school. I don't know if I'm allowed to say shitty. You certainly are when describing things

like that. But, you know, I could go home and I could dress how I wanted to dress. I could talk to my family about the things I needed to talk to them about. And I wouldn't be alive today had that not been the case, you know. And now we have an opportunity to both have protections for young people in schools, encourage people to have supportive families. And there's resources for families. There's resources for young people. There's resources for adults. It's like, you know, to your point around the doctor, it's like all doctors should be trained to provide care for patients. And if you need to take a special seminar to know how to talk to transgender people, great, do it. Just like you're

trained as a medical provider to ask questions, like if somebody is in a domestic violence relationship, and so they could in the doctor setting disclose something that they probably couldn't disclose otherwise. Yeah. Have the tools and language to know what it means to support a person who might be saying that they're transgender and they need help. Yeah. Well, for folks who are listening and, you know, want to be supportive, I hope everyone listening does, if you've made it this far in the conversation, what are the most important ways that we can be supportive and continue to build a national movement around these issues? I know that's a very broad question. I think it's a great question.

Yeah, I know that's a very broad question, but... No, I think it's a great question. Yeah. I would say if you're living in states that are putting forward anti-trans legislation, Google the trans organizations that are in your state, in your city, in your town, and figure out how you can support them as an ally. If you are transgender, know that you're not alone and there's community out there. And we need to really work to fight these things together and i think more than anything just just try to show up

for people if you make mistakes that's okay i think people get super stuck on the pronoun thing it's like okay um it's not the end of the world. Everyone has pronouns. But if that's going to be the thing that's tripping you up, there's lots of resources for that. And also, I think if you ask questions in a respectful way that's like, hey, I want to learn how to be supportive to transgender people. Is there a specific way I should ask about someone's pronouns? A pro tip, if you don't know someone's pronouns, you can always just use their name. Turns out it works. People respond to their name. It's just one part of speech. There's other ways to construct a sentence if you need to.

Yeah. And I think also just talking with your community about it. If it comes up at the dinner table or you're out to drinks with friends and you feel like someone is saying something anti-trans, be like, hey, I don't know why you think that or where that's coming from, but I think we need to do better as a society of just including everyone and that includes transgender people. Because I think oftentimes when you hear something, you're like, that doesn't sound right, but you don't always know what to say. And I think you could just say, Hey, I don't think that sounds right. Um, yeah. Why are we saying that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've had so many conversations where it doesn't need to be a confrontation. You don't need to go, God, mom, you know, and like shout at your family. You could just be like,

well, that's actually not accurate you know uh i think when i you know the the the trans people in my life would say xyz or whatever and you could just present this is the perspective that i've heard that i know and you know your friend or family member at the very least will have to go oh okay or you know just have that give them that little bit of moment of, of, uh, conflict and let them get a little bit of pushback. It matters. You know, people, if people only, uh, listen to Bill Maher and never have a conversation,

then, you know, they're never going to be confronted and never going to change. So you can, you can give them that pushback sometimes. Sorry, sorry to mention, sorry to bring up, uh, the, you know, the name of the devil. Yeah. to mention sorry to bring up uh the you know the name of the devil yeah well and i think to me it's like also just people are always like well i don't know a transgender person and it's like to be clear we don't always know if we know a transgender person like we don't know if someone's trans all the time so yeah and you know like you could be talking to someone who might be considering am i transgender and when they sear something really terrible, come out of someone's mouth, that'll just push them further away from their truth. And I think, you know, liberty and justice for all is like an American value that we've at

times done very well and at times done terribly wrong. And I think we're in a moment in this country's history where we can do it right. And that includes transgender people. Yeah. Well, man, this has been such a wonderful conversation, Shelby. Where can people learn more about your organization and your work? How do people follow you? Yeah, our website is transgenderlawcenter.org. And I think our Instagram, which is like the thing that everyone loves, is Trans Law Center.

And we have awesome content there. And just, you know, it's a place to engage in culture, but also just dialogue around transgender rights and sort of what's happening around the country and how to support it. Awesome. Thank you so much for being here, Shelby. I can't thank you enough. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be here.

Well, thank you again so much to Shelby for coming on the show. If you want to learn more about the Transgender Law Center and their work, you can do so at transgenderlawcenter.org. I want to thank our producer, Sam Rodman, our engineer, Kyle McGraw, and everybody who supports this show at the $15 a month level on Patreon. I got some new $15 a month level patrons to shout out. Thank you so much to Francisco Ojeda, to Dark Adventure, to yet another Mike, to Pat, to Hayden Matthews, to Eric Zeger, Jen Hoffman, Rick Statten, Blake Kolb, Robert Irish, James

Lynch, Chris Parker, Millennial Glacier, and Opal. Thank you to all of you so much for supporting the show. If you want to join them, head to patreon.com slash adamconover. If you want to see me on tour, head to adamconover.net for tour dates and tickets. We'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be with you next week on Factually. I don't know anything