Factually! with Adam Conover - The Disgusting (and Delicious) Truth about Hot Dogs with Jamie Loftus

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

The history of the hot dog is the history of America. The humble hot dog bun holds not just a tube of delicious-yet-dubious meats, but a long lineage of entrepreneurial effort, regional expressions, and immigrant stories. Comedian and author Jamie Loftus has written the literal book on hot dogs, and joins Adam to discuss the myths, merits, and hard truths about America's favorite food. Find Jamie's book at factuallypod.com/booksSUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAboutHeadgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creatingpremium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy toachieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to ourshows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgumSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello and welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Conover. Thank you so much for joining me once again as I talk to an incredible expert about all the amazing things they know that I don't know and that you might not know. Today, we're going to be talking about hot dogs. That's right, a whole hour on America's iconic tubed meat. Love them or hate them, hot dogs are woven into American culture. They're the kid-friendly food boiled in water. They're a regular guest at baseball games and summer barbecues. For some, they're an easy budget meal option and an efficient use of slaughterhouse meats. But they're also a grotesque warning about everything that is wrong with how we treat the animals we eat and the workers who process them. What I'm saying is hot dogs simply are America in all its forms, good and bad, all right?

And we're not just talking about them because it's summer and I'm hungry, though both things are true. We're talking about hot dogs because I just read an incredible book called Raw Dog by the comedian Jamie Loftus. Jamie, who you might know from her hit podcast about Mensa, Kathy Comics, and the book Lolita, does investigative comedy in a way that is completely unique and totally fascinating. And in this book, the way she synthesizes history, food criticism, and incredibly funny comedy writing with a deep and unsettling investigation into the American meat industry is after my own

heart and just incredibly fun to read. I know you're going to love this conversation, but before we get to it, I just want to remind you that if you want to support this show, you can do so on Patreon. Just five bucks a month gets you every episode of this show ad free. We even do a community book club. Please join us patreon.com slash Adam Conover. And if you enjoy standup comedy, just a reminder that I am on tour. If you want to come see me do stand up near you, head to adamconover.net for tour dates and tickets. And now, let's get to my interview with Jamie Loftus. Jamie, thank you so much for being on the show. Oh, thanks for having me. I'm excited.

I'm very thrilled to have you here. You're one of my favorite investigative comedians. That's a term I sometimes apply to myself a little bit self-importantly. I don't love it that much, but I actually do apply it to you. I think we share- Oh, thank you.

Well, we share a similar sensibility of finding what is funny in what is true and weird about the world. You have this new book about hot dogs called Raw Dog. I love this book so much. I've never read a book like this before in my life, to be honest, You have this new book about hot dogs called Raw Dog. I love this book so much. I've never read a book like this before in my life, to be honest, where it's both a history of this disgusting food stuff where you alternately praise it and excoriate how horrible it is. It's also a memoir about your own fucked up life, if you don't mind me saying so.

No, totally correct. It's also very funny about your own fucked up life, if you don't mind me saying so. No, totally correct. It's also very funny. And guess what? It seems to be selling like hotcakes or like hot dogs. So I'm like, I'm just, congratulations to you. It's so cool to have you here to talk about it. And I hope you're happy with how the book is being received. It's been so great.

Yeah. I mean, like I, there's, it's hard to know how a book about hot dogs is going to do. Uh, there's not many of them. I was hoping that would work in its favor, but you know, there's always the chance that there hadn't been many for a reason and no one wants them, but it's been, yeah, it's been so nice. It's been like a really nice summer of talking about hot dogs for the third summer in a row. It might just be forever. Well, I think that that exact emotion, well, no one wants a book about hot dogs and yet we're buying them. That's true about hot dogs themselves.

Everyone has a bad opinion of hot dogs. Oh, hot dogs. Oh, disgusting. I don't like them. Could I please opinion of hot dogs. Oh, hot dogs. Oh, disgusting. I don't like them. Could I please have some hot dogs? So, I mean, what is it about this food that made you want to dive so deep into it? Is it that contradiction in the soul of the hot dog? Yeah, I really like, I liked, I just like topics in general where people feel really strongly about something and are not sure why they feel strongly about it.

And that feels very, a very hot dog coated sentiment to me where everyone, yeah, thinks they're disgusting. Everyone knows the same sort of five facts about why they're great or why they're gross. And then everyone eats them anyways. And I like, I just, I love that. I had a strong feeling about hot dogs and I didn't know why. And sometimes you're like,

Oh, it connects to my relationship with my father. Other times it's just like, it's so, I don't know. It's, it's an interesting little kind of canvas because I feel like everyone's feelings about hot dogs has something to do with who they are in a weirdly intimate way. Yeah. And so much of the time, like, you know, one of my favorite parts of this book is you sort of reviewing different hot dog places around the country and describing the hot dog, how it compares to other hot dogs.

But you're also giving a personal history of your relationship with the hot dog, how it compares to other hot dogs, but you're also giving a personal history of your relationship with the hot dog. So sometimes you're just describing you're at a very low point in your life. Something very depressing has happened to you. You're eating a hot dog, not because you like it, but you just needed something to eat. And then you're also going, and it had an okay snap, but the bun was soggy. You're combining personal history and food writing in this really fascinating way. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I tried to, I don't know, like I felt like I would be deluding myself to go into it as if I were a food writer because I just wouldn't have done a very good job. And like, I have never been like a food writer in detail before this. And so, yeah, it was almost just like, well, what do I know how to do?

And it just felt more like going to whatever stand up brand or whatever it is instead of pretending that I have institutional knowledge that I definitely do not. But you, I'm sorry, you make an incredible case in this book for the hot dog as a fundamental American regional food. If you were going to say, I'm doing a book about pizza, I'm going to go to all different parts of the country and see all the different regional pizzas and talk about the history, I'd be like, okay, I'm aware that pizzas are like there's New York pizza. There's Long Island pizza. There's Chicago pizza. Right. There's New Haven pizza for the people who really know.

You know, there's all this all of this food culture around pizza. No one ever talks about hot dogs in the same breath. And yet you make a case in this book for, you go all across the country, you find different regional hot dog styles in every city that have interesting histories that are related to the place that are delicious or less delicious that one can debate or et cetera.

You talk the Chicago dog, the DC Ben's Chili Bowl dog, the Los Angeles street cart dog. And that is food writing. You really elevated the hot dog in my mind as a fundamental American piece of part of American cuisine. Good. I'm glad. Yeah.

I mean, I really do. I really do love the fucking things. They're so good. And you try. Well, I've been meaning to ask you, what did you think of your Ben's Chili Bowl experience? I forgot. I forgot to check in about it. Because I was texting you.

Yeah. Because I now text you, as I'm sure everyone does, every time I eat a hot dog. Look, hot dog. Every time I get a hot dog, I'm like, Jamie, you wrote a book about hot dogs. I'm here to. And by the way, we don't know each other that well, but we have each other's phone numbers. But here I am texting you probably, probably four out of every five texts I've texted you now over the entire course of our friendship has been me telling you, Jamie, I'm eating a hot dog.

I want to let you know. And I love it. It's great. You know, and it's similar, I think, to when people say to me, oh, here's the guy who ruins everything. Oh, you probably are sick of hearing that. And I say, no, no, no. If you coin a catchphrase, you need to be grateful to hear it

every time people repeat it back to you. You have to live, yes. You have to live it. And I feel like you feel the same way. Yes, I mean, and I truly, there are so many things to be associated with in the world and hot dogs is like one of the easiest things. It's like, it's truly not.

Cause yeah, anytime someone's like, aren't you sick of it? You're like, even when I am, it would be so ridiculous to be genuinely upset about it. Like it would be so ridiculous. And people are walking down the street, they're getting a hot dog and they're thinking of you as they have a happy moment

or at the very least an intense moment with a hot dog they didn't like. So yes, my Ben's chili bowl experiences. I'm on tour a lot. My favorite thing to do when I'm on tour is to eat a regional food, but sometimes I'm just in the airport and that's my only opportunity to eat the regional food. For instance, I've had a Philly cheesesteak in the Philadelphia airport, not the true Philly cheesesteak experience, but no, but that's so, I mean, I think it's so, Philly and DC, it's so hard because I,

because then you have to get on a cross-country flight after eating an entire Philly cheesesteak. Like, you don't know what your body's going to do. You don't know what's going to happen, but it's your only opportunity. You have to do it. It's hard. Ben's Chili Bowl at the airport is pretty violent

and intense, but like, you have to go. I'm very glad you's chili bowl at the airport is pretty violent uh and intense but like you have to go i'm very glad and that's what i did i was in the dc airport i was i had not spent the weekend dc i was coming back from baltimore but i was flying out of dc and i was literally listening to the audio book of your book and i had been listening to the part with ben's chili bowl and then i was like there's a Ben's Chili Bowl in the airport but I didn't plan my time properly so I was like, I was buying the chili dog

10 minutes before getting on the flight and I was texting you saying is it okay if I bring a full chili dog onto the plane and you were like, do what you gotta do and then what I ended up doing was eating it over a trash can because my flight was delayed by five minutes which was good for that honestly that delay

saved everybody's life yes you then they didn't need to see what you had done and you got to act like a little possum yeah i really did i really didn't like a possum. I literally, I literally was eating it like with my body contorted over the trash can so that the chili, because a chili dog to go is a rough thing. They wrap it in foil. It was, there was like dog. As you said, it was a classic half smoke with chili. It had a good snap. The chili was tasty. I think a chili dog is generally too much. I agree. But it was, and I will say, I have not had the regular Ben's Chili Bowl in D.C., but I felt that it was pretty legit in terms of, it didn't feel like a downgrade. I was like, this must be as good as it is.

It can't be any better than this at the actual store. The airport one, I've also done the airport one in a very similar circumstance. And it's like you shouldn't do it, but sometimes it's the only option and you can't leave without having the chili dog. So, yeah, it's like I thought the airport one was pretty good. It's definitely a chili dog is always going to be too like, I thought the airport one was pretty good. It's definitely, a chili dog's always going to be too wet and the vessel doesn't really make sense. You need a more toasted bun if you're going to put that much slop on top,

but it's none of my business. And I think Ben's Chili Bowl rocks. Suddenly that became like, you were doing a testimonial coming out of like a movie in the 90s going like mission impossible rocks but you were doing it about ben's chili bowl but what i so what i love about the book though let's just talk about ben's chili bowl for a second because this is a historic hot dog place in dc but you don't just say hey it's a good hot dog place and blah blah blah you talk about the history of the place

going back 50 60 years and how this hot dog interacts with the history of the civil rights movement would you just like tell me that ah it's yeah ben's chili bowl has a wild history it's one of the i think it's definitely the most famous black owned hot dog business in the country um i hope i'm not leaving anybody out. But yeah, it's been around forever. It was a big, big deal during the civil rights movement because it was it's been said, and it's like difficult to prove, but I'm like, yeah, sure, that the March on Washington was planned partially at Ben's Chili Bowl. And that they were sort of a like a hotspot for planning and organizing during the civil rights movement in the DC area. And so it has like kind of this incredible history, and they

are very forward with that history. And then sort of as I was sort of tracing the history, as it went on, you can see how aggressively gentrified the area got over the years. How, you know, sort of in, I think it was like the nineties and early two thousands, there was a big wave of white 20 somethings moving into the area and, you know, sort of the whole gentrification story as we know it now. And now it's, you know, they're across the street from a bank that is like, we love gay people. And you're like, great, thank you, bank. Relic is not the word I want to use.

It's like this iconic business that's in the middle of such a wildly changing landscape, but it's constant. It's still owned by the family. It's still partially run by one of the original co-founders. And yeah, I mean, it's just like, it got this really cool history. And so many hot dog places do because they've all been around forever. They all like, especially in DC where, you know,

every president that has like, it's, I think one of sort of the first stops, uh, if you are elected president, you go to Ben's chili bowl because it's important that you have a hot dog because it proves that you're American. Like it's there, there's all this weird stuff tied into it. The history of the hot dog is in fact the history of America is what you're saying. Did I make it too grand? No. You sound like the guy who runs the Nathan's

Hot Dog Contest. Let's get into that in a second. I want to tease that for later in the interview. If people want to hear all the Nathan's Hot Dog Contest dirt, you got to stick around a little bit. But what I want to ask is when you one of my favorite parts of the book at the beginning is you debunk many stories of the history of the hot dog, which I love because for every food stuff, there are hundreds of people saying I invented. I invented it. And they're all full of shit.

They're all just restauranteurs who are trying to make them oh we invented the caesar salad no you fucking didn't um so you actually debunk some and you reveal the true history of the hot dog which perhaps for the first time ever so what is the history of the hot dog the history of the hot i mean i yeah it underwent the same sort of, uh, series of trial and error bullshit narratives where it was like, it was one guy who was holding a sausage and a glove and his hand got hot. And you're just like, that's not, that's not even a good story. It's always, also the fake story is always like a mistake.

You know, it's always like, oh, someone came in and they wanted a sausage, but we didn't have any because it was Tuesday. So one crazy guy decided, and that's always fucking bullshit. And the world was never the same. But even the myths were fascinating because not only do they all kind of suck, but

they are connected to very American feeling scenarios. So many of them are tied to like the whatever the world's exhibition in chicago in 1893 a lot of them are connected to early uh baseball games in in the u.s like it's all connected to this idea of american exceptionalism and then putting this bullshit story about this american dish there. But the truth is that it was just the hot dog was brought over from just countries with sausage traditions in Europe, so mainly Germany and Poland. And, you know, there is a huge wave of immigration

and it just sort of became a dish that evolves into street cart food uh especially kind of during the great depression when there was a need uh when you know as as the country was industrializing um poor people needed something delicious to eat and so it evolved out of those traditions it wasn't one specific person it wasn't one specific company. You can sort of trace it to like New York and New Jersey. I'll give them that. But outside of that, it was this sort of overtime collective need to be able to eat something on the go in the city as a poor person. And that's where it came from. And one of the things I found really fascinating about this is that hot dogs are everywhere across America. If you look at a lot of our other, first of all,

all of our best foods are poor people foods, right? Our working class foods. If you look at, you know, pizza, bagels, anything that people like, even ramen as a dish, right? If you look at the history of ramen in Japan, right? It all it's always a working class meal what can we put out quickly that then you know innovative chefs improvise on and etc right um and those those are the best foods everywhere in the world bar none but usually in the u.s they're somewhat regional you know like pizza is you know has has a there's new york style pizza new jersey chicago. But we wouldn't say, oh, Los Angeles or San Francisco, or I don't know, Louisiana have like, you know, well-established regional pizza styles, right? It's, we see these as pizza deserts. And it's, it's really sad that we don't talk about it enough.

We don't talk about the issue of pizza deserts enough. And someone needs to start a foundation to deal with this problem. But you made the case that hot dogs are everywhere. Almost every city has some sort of regional hot dog style that is distinct and interesting. There are no hot dog deserts. And why do you think that is? That's a great question. I mean, there's definitely places where hot dogs aren't as popular, but I don't know.

I mean, I think that it that's a that's a great question. I'm not totally sure why hot dogs are truly everywhere. symbol that their association with Greek and Polish and Austrian immigrants, that sort of went, I mean, that like was less popularly associated with the dish. And July, became associated with American summers and all of these really, I don't know, things that you don't, or that I didn't really think about as like something that's bonked into your head when you're very young of like, this is just, this is a summer dish.

This is, and especially if you are in like a low income family, like it's a dish for whenever it's really easy to make it, it's really affordable. And I think that it, that it probably spread, uh, at least in part because of its association with, uh, American holidays and American summers, uh, for better and for worse there's like, and there definitely is, I mean, I didn't get everywhere that I wanted to for, uh, the hot dog book and every single day probably for the rest of my life i will receive at least one email about like why

did you not go to where why didn't you go to kansas to get the kansas hot dog and like i don't the book can only be so long ma'am i yeah i mean i cut a lot of hot dogs hit the cutting room floor it was a brutal process i couldn't include your feet just surrounded by chopped up hot dog chunks that's kind of what our car was like at different points in the trip just a meat detritus but yeah i mean like every single at least like major city or region has their hot dog and even places that you wouldn't think would be i mean like la i feel like is a very underrated hot dog uh heaven there's so many great hot dogs in la more people eat uh hot dogs per capita in la than anywhere in

the in the country um which new yorkers don't want to hear and they're not ready to have that conversation. But it's true. And it's kind of like- Well, and also in LA, there is, so there's a kind of street hot dog for folks who haven't been to LA that you see all over the place. It's usually middle-aged older ladies with carts

and it's got a hot surface and they're grilling peppers and onions and then they've got bacon wrapped hot dogs and these will be outside you know clubs like places where people are partying and they'll also be outside every single dodger game soccer game yeah any kind of game like if you leave an lafc game there's a soccer team i go to see often um there's just like like crap like a phalanx like just of a hundred women just going, hot dog, hot dog, hot dog, hot dog. And you can get a hot dog. And here's the thing.

People talk shit on these hot dogs. People call them danger dogs. Yeah. People say, oh, that's a danger dog. They say, oh, it's not going to be good. And I've had one. And, you know, I'll say it's not the best hot dog I've ever had in my life. But it's a solid hot dog.

And you make the point. These are better than the hot dogs that they serve inside the sports stadium by a mile, and they're a lot better as a New Yorker. They're a lot better than the street hot dogs in New York, which are just those Sebrett dirty water dogs. That is not a quality hot dog. They taste like propane,

and I'm saying this as a New Yorker. I was like, that's really brave of you to say. Yeah. They're not good. I don't like them. Yeah. But I'm so, I live in fear of insulting the wrong hot dog. And like someday someone's going to come for me. It's going to be bad.

But yeah, the street hot dogs in LA are incredible. And I'm always stunned at how well, what a well-oiled machine it is. Where it's truly anywhere in the entire city where you might get drunk. There is a hot dog cart outside. Like you're good. It's covered. I think my last street dog was like after I went to like WrestleMania at SoFi and it was just like a million hot dog vendors. It was incredible. I really liked Danger Dogs. And yeah, I mean, Dodger Dogs, I've already said, Dodger Dogs and Pinks, just trash, not good. I think that maybe that's why LA kind of suffers because our two most sort of famous hot dogs suck.

But there's so many good ones. And you use this as, now, first of all, one of the reasons these street hot dogs are really good, there are hot grilled peppers and onions on the hot dog. It's not just simply a hot dog on some cold bun. It's like there's it's a whole dish that you can only get in this one circumstance. But you use that as a way to talk about street vendors in Los Angeles. More generally, the history of street food carts and the precarity that those vendors live under,

the way that they've always been harassed by the city. Tell me a little bit about that because I found that fascinating. Yeah, I had gotten into, I think I'd written a story about like food vendors in LA like years before. So I knew a little bit about it, but I never had like laser focused it onto hot dogs because why would you?

But this was my chance. And yeah, what I found frustrating and interesting was that there, you know, so many of the mythic stories that these famous hot dog places have, especially ones that have been around for, you know, 80, 90, 100 years, began as carts that were run by immigrants. And that is still the case of most hot dog carts across the country. But in the case of, I used Pink's as kind of an example for how this, how Pink's, I mean, it's a very famous LA hot dog institution. They started as a cart in 1939. They're kind of known as like the hot dog vendor to the stars, which I guess someone has to be.

I don't know. When the stars, when Brad Pitt wants a hot dog, you know who he calls his friend, Bob Pink. I don't know the guy's name. Please go on. It may in fact be bob pink there's like but there's you can you can go to pink's right now and you shouldn't but you could and you could get the rosie o'donnell and it's just a hot dog rosie o'donnell likes and i like i think that's interesting but anyways wait what's on the rosie o'donnell wait i have to check because i've i've had it and I was like, what is she doing?

You've had it and you have to check. Yes, I've had so many celebrity. Okay. And then they're also, they're famous for the Betty White hot dog, which is bare. Absolutely nothing. A plain hot dog. Just a plain hot dog, which I guess, why not? i mean betty you know betty white was i'm sure watching her health towards the end so she's it's it's a it's a oh the thing with the rosie

o'donnell dog is it's really long for some reason it's just like it's much like rosie's career yeah i think it was supposed to be a symbol for her longevity as a cultural figure. Yeah, she had a daytime talk show. She was in a league of their own. Her versatility. You know, the view. Yeah. So it's long. And then it's sort of like just a standard chili kraut onion mustard dog.

But it's long. And why is that? But anyways, Pinks. They have all these celebrity hot dogs. Now it's like uh they've franchised it's this big institution um but they started as a cart and uh now i think that it's like they're in their third generation of ownership they've been around for over 80 years and now the current owners of pink uh make it sort of their business to uh get hot dog carts owned by immigrants off the streets

to eliminate competition uh and yeah and and you know the current owners of pinks are they they just love the lapd so much and like you see this like these institutions that started because um it was possible for immigrants to start a small business like a hot dog cart and thrive and grow it out over a course of years. And you see those same businesses trying to prevent that from happening down the line. And I found that incredibly frustrating. And also, I guess the more I read about it, you're like, oh, yeah, three generations of hot dog nepotism. And they're so far removed that they're now making it their business to get rid of other vendors. And then there's also great stories about vendors organizing and actually getting big wins from the city, which they have in la i mean it's been back and forth but over the last couple years there's been like some good movement there and i don't know yeah i i i want to i wish i knew more about street vendors it's so fascinating and so frustrating to uh especially during covid like how there were all of these bizarro loopholes um that were taken advantage of at the city level to get street vendors off the street at a time where business is extremely diminished

and making it seem like it's a safety issue versus what it actually is. And what is it actually? What is the actual motivation for the city or the cops to harass street vendors? Well, I think it's because they are immigrants and I think it's because they're poor. And I think, and that has always been the case.

And I read, you know, going back a hundred years in LA, this has like been the case forever, but it's still the case now. The reasoning that the cops in the city will give for doing it tends to change over time. But it was extra frustrating to me that there wasn't even a ton of solidarity from successful hot dog businesses and these carts, because that's what would be... If Pink's was actually in solidarity with street cart vendors,

that would mean something and that would make a big difference. But they want to eliminate competition and so they're not. But the soul of the hot dog is the small vendor. And that would make a big difference. But yeah, they want to eliminate competition. And so they're not. But the soul of the hot dog is the small vendor. And that's one of the things I find so fascinating because almost every business that you profile here, you talk about a couple of big institutions like Nathan's or Pink's that are big in their region. that are big in their region. Nathan's is a chain, but most of the places you're talking about are mom and pop shops, street vendors, small places. And that is the soul of the hot dog. I read a really interesting, as I'm the sort of person, I read an article 10 years ago. I don't remember where it was, but I remember the gist, right? And the gist, somebody at some point wrote an article that was like, how come there's no fast food hot dog chain, right? If you were to write a book about burgers,

you would have to deal with McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, not just that, but Shake Shack, Five Guys, In-N-Out. When people are debating the best burger spot, they're always talking about Shake Shack versus In-N-Out. Who gives a shit? That's not interesting. Yeah. Those are giant, giant companies.

But there is no, I mean, there's Nathan's, sure, small chain, Wienerschnitzel, I guess. I've never been to a Wienerschnitzel. Who gives a shit? Wienerschnitzel is pretty busted. Yeah, unfortunately. That's not a real fast food chain, right? So it is fascinating that there is no like McDonald's of hot dogs, despite the fact that this is a quintessential American convenience food.

Why do you think that is? That I have been trying to get to the bottom of forever. Like there are instances of hot dogs being test-drived at places like McDonald's. There was, I forget what region it was, but there was a time where McDonald's was trying out hot dogs at McDonald's in certain regions and it flopped and no one wanted it. And they were like, which makes sense. If you went into a McDonald's and they were like, hey, try the hot dog.

We've got a hot dog now. I would walk out of the McDonald's. That would be disturbing to me. Like, man, I'm already here. Like, Don't make this harder. But they flopped. Yeah. Why do you feel they flopped? I don't know. I mean, and I read about a series of, I mean, it's certainly been attempted before. There are small franchises. There's like the Dog House in Southern California. There's a couple of those. There's a

couple of pinks. But yeah, they never really got successful past regional. I don't really observe Wienerschnitzel as a business that exists because like you're saying, I don't know anyone who's ever been there. And I've never passed one and seen people inside. So I feel like it doesn't really count. I mean like the building, I'm like that used to be a Wienerschnitzel because it's in a weird building. Yes. Like that bank was once a Wienerschnitzel. I, I, yeah, I don't know why it is, but I think that it, because it was never really cracked of like a national hotdog chain, it, it sort of reinforces the feeling that everyone

thinks that their favorite hot dog is a secret. Yeah. And that like, I feel like it almost because, I mean, whatever, I feel very personally attached to certain fast food dishes. There's like, you know, whatever, everyone's very connected to their Taco Bell order. It's not like you can't have an emotional connection with fast food, but it does feel like, yeah, with hot dogs, they're like, well, this is my hot dog and you probably don't know about it, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I feel like it sort of works in the hot dog's favor too, because it means that if you have a favorite hot dog, you're probably statistically likely to be supporting a small business,

which is great. Yeah. And it means it makes it such a more interesting food to, I mean, burgers are everywhere and they're either, you know, fast food or they're just, you know, like, I don't know. It's a less interesting thing to examine. But like a business that is successful and longstanding and is making hot dogs, they must be doing something interesting. Right. There's got to be. They're not just slinging dogs. gotta be they're not just slinging dogs they're like there's either a regional connection or they're doing something very special with the dish that they're making that's causing people to come back again and again yeah or someone like or something local happened there or someone important had been there or not and they're lying about it or the place burned down which like

so many of these places burned down over and over and over there's a place that i really loved in baltimore that like i think it had burned down two or three different times and they had like framed pictures of the times that it would burn down like because it was just a part of the canon of this deli was that it seemed to burn down at random constantly it's great like it's you can't get that from a McDonald's. Wouldn't it be cool if every McDonald's burned down all at once and then they all had to rebuild? Well, we got to take a quick break. When we get back, I want to talk about the awful truth about how hot dogs are made, but we got to read some ads. We'll be right back with Jamie Loftus.

be right back with jamie loftus i remember when i moved to new york city and i got a hot dog once in the street because i was hungry and i was in a hurry and it was so bad i didn't have another one for 10 years and i never knew anybody else who did either it was that propane scent and flavor is very real. It's not good. Yeah. I feel that they are only eaten by tourists. I feel that people in New York don't actually eat them. People in New York eat dollar pizza. That's a local convenience food.

Bagels, certainly. Bacon, egg, and cheese, right? Chopped cheese, bodega sandwiches. These are the run and go grab and go meals that New Yorkers eat, but not, I just never even see anybody eating a hot dog. I'm going to leave this part in because I want people to hear my expanded thoughts on the New York city hot dog. You can tweet at me if you disagree. But we got to get back into it with Jamie Loftus. We're talking, I got to know about how hot dogs are made. You had a harrowing examination of this process.

Tell me about it. Yes. So there, I mean, I feel like that is one of the commonly shared things about hot dogs and why people claim to avoid them, although I don't think they actually do, is that it's processed meat. is that it's uh it's processed meat um and so the conditions and uh you know in in the way that they're made in american factories i mean just the way a hot dog is made anywhere is most likely not ethical uh for certainly for the animal and often for the employees who work at meat processing plants as well. And it was originally my plan that now I was like, what did I think was going to happen to interview people who

worked in at plants as well as hopefully touring one myself just to see what is the, you know, sort of sanitized version of how this is shown to journalists but um there i mean i was only met with uh slammed doors when it came to that because i was researching it at a uniquely bad uh time for for meat processing which i vaguely remembered. I mean, so I did the reporting for this in the back half of 2021, where I was touring around over the summer, getting the hot dogs, learning the stories, ingratiating myself in the culture, and then spent the rest of the year writing my first draft of the book and doing research and interviews around meat processing. And I remembered, I don't know, I feel like I was constantly confronted with

how much from early COVID lockdown I had willfully blocked out because it was just so much, so much bad news every single day all the time. And so I remembered that in April 2020, there had been an executive order from Trump saying that meat processing plants had to stay open no matter what. Like with the underlying again, it being that American thing like Americans need their meat. They need their hot dogs. need their meat. They need their hot dogs. And I remember that being true, but I didn't really follow up on what that meant for the people who worked there. What that meant for the people who worked there, especially at Tyson and Smithfield plants, was that COVID spread like wildfire. There was little to nothing done to protect employees who were majority immigrants. There was a lot of I've done a lot of subsequent talks with meatpacking union organizers and how there has been sort of an institutional struggle to make sure that language barriers are being addressed within unionizing efforts. But

that executive order was essentially a blank check for Tyson and Smithfield CEOs to mistreat their employees. And at one point, I think that meatpacking was like the second most dangerous job you could have in the U.S. during lockdown. There were. I mean, it was the conditions in those plants were just like perfect for COVID to be spread because it was something about the cold. It was like wet air from the humidity and then people in close quarters constantly breathing, doing in many cases physical work, which would cause them to breathe a little bit heavier. Being in the same place with other people for like eight hours at a stretch. Like it was just a COVID

incubation chamber and none of those places shut down because of the executive order that you're talking about. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, there is, um, and, and the year after in 2022, when I was finishing up the book, there was a ProPublica report that essentially confirmed that Tyson and Smithfield had drafted this executive order and sent it to the Trump White House and it got pushed through. So it was at the highest level. An opportunity was seen to sell more product and they were successful too. Like hot dog sales doubled during lockdown. I know that I- Hot dog sales doubled during lockdown, why? Yeah, I think that there's a comfort element to it.

I think it's a combination of comfort and finances where if you were operating on a reduced income during lockdown, which almost everybody was, like they were still cheap and they were still possible to get because of this executive order. So it becomes this whole, uh, snake eating its own tail thing where it's like the sales did go way up and the executive order from the business, from the CEO's perspective was very successful. But the way that that was accomplished was by

literally, you know, essentially willfully killing their own employees. And so it's it's really I mean, there's been a lot written about it, but I still haven't seen it be a real public discussion. because that was like the specific moment that I was covering. But I, again, just felt very naive in that. I was just like, why are, I thought that after The Jungle was published, it was not as bad. But of course that's not true. It's in many ways, it's worse than it's ever been. And tracing the history of meatpacking labor where this is a formerly very, very strong union job that you can have. And when The Jungle was published 100 years

ago, there were two significant laws pushed through to protect both livestock and uh and the employees of the meat processing plants but there's been basically no meaningful legislation in that um space since then which i was genuinely very surprised at um and also that i don't know i had to reread the jungle because i realized that i guess i had like lied about reading it in high school i definitely was i never read it i definitely were we supposed to read it they just told us about it they were just like ah this book uh yeah Upton Sinclair yellow journalism hot dogs I don't know whatever but nobody oh we didn't read it in my school I for some reason I thought I had read it and then I read it I was like no this is like trying to get poor Americans at the turn of the century to become socialists.

Like the hot dog part is a, I mean, is a very, very small element of that book. But that's the part that people, as you write, latched onto that he, that Upton Sinclair was trying to like cause a, you know, the working class to rise up and wage revolution. And so people read the book and they were like, oh, meat. That's what's in the hot dog. Our meat. Yeah. That's what's in the hot our meat yeah that's what's in the hot dog the meat is disgusting we gotta fix this and that's all that happened which was like which is like i don't know what i expected but it is very funny that it it like is this very comprehensive like piece trying to sell uh sell the the working class

on socialism as a concept and it ended up passing two hot dog laws. But they were important. They're important laws. All meat, all meat. It covered all meat. Yes. And those are really important laws that are still enforced today.

But there's been very, very little that has happened since then. And now with sort of the uh the rise of technology sure whatever there there have been laws not to um use tech to protect employees or animals but um to actively there's been legislation legislation pushed through called ag ag laws that are designed to prevent employees from recording anything inside of a meat processing plant and making it you know legally actionable and you would certainly lose your job and also to prevent journalists or anyone trying to investigate what's going on inside of them and making it truly like illegal to know what's going on inside of a lot of these

factories. And some of them are getting rolled back, but like that's the most significant legislation. It's one of those things where, you know, in America, when we don't want society to know about something, we sequester it, we segregate it. You know, if you look at prisons, right, prisons are often, you know, way off in upstate New York or somewhere else remote, you know, it's like, there'll be like the prison and the town around it that services the prison. And then, you know, no one else ever has to think about it. There's very little reporting about it. That's by design. Same thing is true of meat processing that like where it's done is in these giant facilities, the entire town just exists to service it. It's all worked by, you know, mostly recent immigrants who, you know, their only community is each other and the little town that they live in.

And it's, you know, they take steps to prevent unionization, to prevent those folks from having too strong of a community. to prevent those folks from having too strong of a community. And as a result, like we're all eating this stuff, but by design, we're not able to see where it actually comes from. And when on my Netflix show, The G Word, we went to a Cargill beef processing plant. And by the way, we went to go see beef because we were told that pork and chicken

would be too disgusting to put on television. They may have been right about that. No, I think they were probably right. And, oh, you know, just for visual reasons, we went to go on television. They may have been right about that. No, I think they were probably right. And, oh, you know, just for visual reasons, we went to go see Beef. And we saw quite a lot of the process, but they told us, this is the first time we've allowed cameras in here in about 30 years. And we only went because we were profiling the USDA. We did talk about some of the abuses that you're talking about.

We were profiling the good work that people at the USDA do in there. But you also get a sense that the conveyor belt, the machinery of capitalism pushing these animals in one end and meat out the other end is so vast and has to move so quickly that any attempt to regulate the process to make it safer and saner and more ethical just falls by the wayside. This industry is basically just able to control the entire process, the wellbeing of humans or animals be damned. Yeah. I watched that episode and I was, but I think I saw that as I was writing the book that I think that that time's out right. I was like, how did they get in there? Like, it's so hard. And yeah, I mean, it's incredible that you were able to because it's, there's like, and I always wonder, I'm like,

how, what kind of, I always think about like, I always think of like the Elizabeth Holmes example of like Joe Biden was visiting the Theranos offices and she had people over in the next room making it look like it was a real thing when it wasn't. And so they were always like one room ahead and like just barely making it seem like it was like a functional thing that basically existed and i i'm so curious what that um how like a formal tour squares with what an employee sees and it seems like it does very pretty wildly based on the company because it's not like every i mean obviously uh if you are not vegan it's all unacceptable but if you're a meat eater, there are places, especially, you know, like I think one of the again, one of the good things about hot dogs being so sort of centralized to small businesses is it's not at all uncommon for them to source meat locally and in a far more ethical way. And like you can know exactly where the meat is coming from. ethical way and like you can know exactly where the meat is coming from and it's a point of pride for a lot of business owners to tell you like yeah that cow used to live here and you're like awesome cool uh and but also i the best hot dog i had in la recently was somebody had had uh hired

a hot dog cart to come to the picket line as i was eating picket uh in front of the netflix building i was eating hot dogs i like, these are great hot dogs. Where'd you get them? And the guy was like, these are Kirkland Signature. Like, these are the best hot dog. I've tried all the hot dogs, and Kirkland Signature is the best one around. I was like, all right. He's eating the Costco hot dogs.

You know what I mean? Right. Well, and that's the Costco hot dog. Is it made as ethically? No. that's the Costco hot dog. Is it made as ethically? No. And, but it's like, it's with hot dogs. It's, it's unavoidable in the same way that it's like, yeah, I still go to McDonald's. I, I know that I'm like committing, I'm, you know, complicit in something. Um, but also you're like, but they're, they're hot dogs for the union. How bad could it be? It's so hard.

It's impossible. I mean, you know, I love that your book has this tension between your knowledge of where the hot dog comes from and the fact that, hey, you got to eat, you know, as we all do. And that, you know, and look, I admire anybody who goes vegan and renounces hot dogs in their entirety. But I don't think that that sort of monkish approach to life, you know, we all face this conflict in our life somewhere, whether we choose to have that conflict over hot dogs or choose to have it over the clothes we buy or, you know, any of the other oppressive systems we live under, right, we're always confronting that contradiction at some point and having to make our peace with it and figure out how

we live an ethical life in spite of it. And I thought it was really fascinating to see you grapple with that right here. I mean, how do you, you what, what goes through your mind now when you eat a hot dog, right? When you take that bite, do you, do you imagine those workers getting the COVID or how do you, how do you try to think about it? I still, when I'm eating a hot dog, think awesome. This is awesome for me. Um, but I mean, there, there's, that yeah again it's like finding out like okay if i am going to continue to eat meat what is a way that i because of what i have aggressively learned what is a way that i can better um you know interact with meat and so i, I mean, yeah, for, for hot dogs, especially it's like, I will,

if I possibly can avoid the mass produced ones. Uh, and especially, but especially Tyson and Smithfield, I really do everything I can to not fuck with Tyson and Smithfield food products at all. Um, well, hold on a second. These companies are like virtual monopolies. Like if you're eating meat of any kind in America, you're, you're getting some Tyson and Smithfield. It's true. It's like extremely hard to avoid. And also you have to do the, um, the internal math of like, Oh, Smithfield owns Nathan's hot dogs. Did I nathan's hot dogs this year yes i did it's like yeah it's it's very very difficult and so for me i try to yeah buy local when i can and i will like travel with hot dogs from places that i like it's a mess it's a mess there's really no way to be i

mean and i think that that extends to like there's no way to really be a meat eater in an industrialized society without being complicit in something. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know that I have a good answer necessarily. I do think that it's it's good that more people seem to be talking about it or at least thinking about it. more people seem to be talking about it or at least thinking about it um at the 2022 nathan's contest there was a smithfield protester uh that stormed the stage wearing a dark vader mask for some reason uh and was put in a chokehold by joey chestnut and it ended up being amazing for that cause because people were like wait what the fuck was that and then ended up learning about smithfield food and all the um how they're like egregiously bad specifically with how they treated their employees during covet and uh you know i i do feel like there is something to

people just knowing more and i guess yeah they were it's like one of the most common things for people to say about hot dogs is like oh aren't there dogs in it guess yeah they were it's like one of the most common things for people to say about hot dogs is like oh aren't there dogs in it you're like no it's it's worse sit down let me tell you well you mentioned the you mentioned the costco hot dog uh we have to talk about the costco hot dog because there's a myth going around the internet about it that you bust. What is the myth and what is the truth? Oh, well, okay. So there's that whole, uh, this, this story itself probably is true, but there, how it is a very glorified folk tale, uh, with the Costco hot dog that I forget. It's always like, one's the CEO, one's the president, some

weird corporate thing, but, but uh two higher ups at uh costco one was saying you know we have to uh raise the price of the hot dog we're losing money it's always been a dollar fifty that's been the deal and then i think the ceo or the founder of costco said um if you raise the price of the costco hot dog I will fucking kill you. I think is exactly what he said. I've seen TikToks about this. Oh, that Costco CEO loves you and your cheap hot dog so much, he threatened to murder his own president if you

raise the price of the hot dog. It's so, I mean, it's like, and it's been, yeah, like that story comes up all the time. It's an incredibly effective, especially like, I just was, I was really surprised because there's people that like i know that love that story and there's like young people that love that story and like a whole generation that's been conditioned to fucking hate ceos that are like

but this guy rules and you're like guys come on like it's it blows my mind but i think that that is just the power of of the hot dog where it's like that although the whole purpose of that story whether it's true or not repeated is to endear you to this uh ceo like yeah yeah it's it's bizarre what is the real story between why behind why the costco hot dog has been a dollar fifty for so long so So it's, uh, it, it feels like, I forget what the phrase is, but it's basically like a little psychological trick, uh, that is played on Costco members. Cause you can't buy a Costco hotdog unless you're a Costco member. If you want to be a Costco member, you have to pay like 75 bucks a year or something like that. And not everything at Costco is a great deal. It just is a lot of something. And so there, I forget, there is like a specific word for this, but by having at the entrance a freakishly

good deal on a hot dog sort of conditions you to think you're about to get amazing deals top to bottom all throughout the Costco. This is a loss leader. That's, I believe, the term, isn't it? Yes. It's a loss leader. They're losing money on the hot dog, but that makes you think you're getting such a great deal that you'll go and waste money on a gigantic tub of cheese balls. Exactly. So you'll buy 10 pounds of pretzel sticks.

At exorbitant prices because your belly is full of $1.50 hot dogs. Exactly. Yeah, you're tricked into thinking that you're getting a good deal everywhere, but you just had a pretty solid hot dog. I do like the Costco hot dog. But I also find this fascinating because it is locating the hot dog within the history of American poverty foods. I mean, this is like a Depression-era deal. Um, it reminds me of these stories, your stories about how, um, saloons like drinking establishments throughout America used to have a free lunch, which is where the, the phrase, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch comes from because it was not in fact for you to buy one drink, but then you got to eat the free lunch.

And it was just like a buffet sitting out of probably gross food or whatever. Yeah. But there's a, there's a history in America of this very, very cheap food as a way to get people into a business. And so like, this is like through the thirties all over again, um, with this Costco hot dog. And we're, I mean, and we're still falling for it. And I do, I mean, I wonder sort of, because we are in a recession and, and it's such a precarious time. That seems like when the hot dog really comes alive again. Hot dog is not associated with times of plenty. So you're saying your book is a bad indicator of the American economy.

That's what you're saying. The fact that your book is a hit says something very bad about our society right now, that things were going down the tubes. I really do think that my book doing well does not bode well for the country. We're almost out of time. I have to ask you because I teased it earlier, but the Nathan's hot dog contest. Yes.

You tore the lid off of this story. I cannot, we cannot possibly cover the whole thing, the amount of time we have left. But you talk about the, the, you the you know the the racist jingoism uh inherent in the victory of joey chestnut over kobayashi uh the uh the japanese hot dog eating hero um who i saw once defeated by you you make an illusion to him being defeated by a bear on television i saw this very reality show where he was defeated by a bear eating hot dogs. On Spike?

I thought it was on Fox, but maybe he did it twice. It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen was Kobayashi, who at the time was a big media hero for destroying, he was the Babe Ruth of hot dogs, right? Unbelievable. He came out and ate dozens and dozens of hot dogs

when other people had eaten like a third of what this guy was eating. So he he was huge in the media so they do a reality show called like man versus beast or something like that where he has to go up against it's people going up against animals and it's kobayashi up against a bear eating hot dogs and so kobayashi's sitting there stuffing his face with hot dogs like you know like dipping the bun in water and all that shit. And like, just like eating them like a machine. The bear just sort of like ambles up to the hot dog tray and does nothing for 45 seconds. And then just goes like, and eats like 200 hot dogs in two bites.

It's amazing. Kobayashi loses. And then here's what was funny to me was the announcers go, oh, too bad, Kobayashi. I guess you're not the champion anymore. Oh, you were so great, but you've been defeated by the bear. And Kobayashi is just like, what? I spent my life training for this. You're comparing me to a bear.

This is not a fair comparison. It's a fun stunt. They were treating it like he really lost his championship belt to the bear. To the bear. It was so disrespectful to him. That broadcast. And also, Kobayashi is amazing in situations like that because he's such a showman that you're just like, is he serious about being upset about this?

And just like the jingoistic air of of that broadcast it's so like it's horrible and it's so silly at the same time where they pull out when kobayashi loses and you see that the bear is somehow representing america and you're like how does how like kobayashi presumably japan and the bear is representing the uS. And so that is why he lost the championship. It's so bizarre. Yeah. No, I mean, I'm complete. I'm very obsessed with the Nathan's contest.

I was there this year and I have sort of slowly been trying to be more to just know as much as I humanly can about the, about that world. I mean, you, again, you're very critical of the contest and it's jingoism and, and the fact that it's, you know, elevates this homegrown hero,

Joey Chestnut, who eats a wonderful amount of hot dogs, but is, you know, the way he's been presented as, as the great white hope, frankly, against,

against Kobayashi. But at the same time, you're a fan and you have a crush on joey chestnut and you met him so what was that like dude it was so great it was awesome it was the best day of my life uh i am still i mean as far as a hot dog eating fan kobayashi is the greatest of all time as far as my crush on joey chestnut is well it's just true like it's true like not even in a way that I'm I'm not even trying to dunk on Joey. It's just that all of the techniques that every single hot dog eater uses

in the U.S. now was taken from Kobayashi's method. So even if you can eat more hot dogs than Kobayashi, I don't feel that you are more impactful or influential on this part because he brought the technique, he brought the showmanship and he popular on the sport because he brought the technique he brought the showmanship and he popularized the sport in the u.s so it's like what are you gonna do i love this take but i have to ask you who can eat more hot dogs i do think that joey does eat more hot dogs joey eats a shitload of hot dogs he He's a monster. I really love him. Yeah, no, I got to like, I got invited to their like after party this year

and I was like perseverating. I was like, I'm gonna meet Joey. I hope. And it was really, and yeah, I met him and he was very nice. And he's like, oh, don't you pretend to be married to me? And I was like, yes. He's like, okay, let's take a picture and we did i really love that you met your crush right after your crush

had eaten what 70 to 100 hot dogs like he was just walking around with a giant hot dog belly he was chilling like he was i i was uh reporting on two other eaters uh megabyte ronnie and mary bowers who are both the greatest that's like part of why i like it is there's the at the highest level there are a bunch of assholes and the way that the the contest is presented can be really really jingoistic and has been consistently but there are competitors who are just fucking amazing and so and like are actively trying to change that and i'm very interested in that effort so um oh i forgot what i was saying i was just getting excited about hot dogs uh but yeah i mean but there was um something that i was talking about with someone i was profiling uh woman mary bowers i was asking about like why are you able to have an after party how are you not

so physically ill like how do you guys party after the contest and she said it in a way that like I don't think it was supposed to sound like tragic but it did feel tragic to hear where she was like well you know like when you train the way that we do and your stomach gets really expanded you can eat a lot but it's impossible to ever really feel full again. So you can kind of just go out and do whatever you want. And you're like, whoa, that sounds like a biblical plague. You can never feel full again. So Joey was like full of hot dogs physically, but I don't think he felt full. And what about eating a hot dog on a normal day? He can never feel full. He can never be

hungry and then just eat a normal amount of food and be satiated. I guess so. I mean, I don't know if that's, but Mary and Ronnie seem to agree that that's a generally true thing where you just have to develop a lot of discipline of stopping yourself from eating eating because once your stomach is like trained to fit that many hot dogs you could keep going like you could just keep going yeah you just go to a fourth of july picnic and you're just like you're like dude you're not on the clock today yeah but you seem to imply and i i want to know if you have a firm stance on this that after the hot dog dog eating contest, and this is what everybody wonders, after the hot dog eating contest, after they eat all the hot dogs and they stand there for half an hour and take all the press questions, that they do eventually go in the back and barf. That was my theory at the time. Now, I don't know.

I truly don't know. Really? No, I truly don't know. I feel, and, and I mean, because I haven't spent time with, uh, uh, you know, an eating champion immediately after a contest. So I'm sure that some do, but I used to, I mean, yeah, two years ago I would have been like, they all definitely do blah, blah, blah. But now I'm like, I really genuinely do not think that all of them do uh i think that they're and and um i don't know also just discussing like how that physically affects you that much food where um you know obviously the day after it's a lot of poop that's just physically what happens but i guess which way would you rather have 70 hot dogs come back out is the question. That's like a how you were raised thing. I was from like a poop family. I would rather it be poop.

I don't like throwing up. Okay. I'm really sorry to everybody who's listening to this. Maybe while you're eating or drinking. We should have maybe put a content warning on this part of it because I know some people have very, very strong feelings about this kind of thing. But I do think there's a sort of for that reason, there's a perverse fascination with eating contests because some people watch it, but they are simultaneously so utterly revolted by it that they are horrified. And I think that's part of the appeal. Yeah. I think that like it's, it's that, and it's also that it's like the only

like televised sport. I think it is a sport. Not everyone agrees with me there, but there's a lot of training and there's a league. So I feel like that's a sport. But I feel like it's like one of the only sports you can turn on and be like, Oh, I could, I could do that. I could do that if I really wanted to. And like, you could not, but you feel like you could in a way that feels weirdly equalizing because like everyone has eaten too much at some point in their life. Yes, but I eat too much for fun. I don't want to turn that into something I need to practice at. Like eating is one of my great joys in life. I don't want to make that into something I need to practice at. Eating is one of my great joys in life. I don't want to make that a hobby or a job.

That would destroy the pleasure of eating. I really, yeah, I was like, I have not achieved balance with my body image to be able to do it. But it is fascinating watching someone that can. But yeah, day one is the physical aspect. Day two, I didn't know about until I was doing interviews this year I guess day two there was a huge like serotonin crash uh from like I don't know just the the high of being both on tv and consuming so much chemicals that a few days later um yeah the woman I was I was interviewing was like, you know, I've like not

a never had issues with depression, but like July 6th is the hardest day of the year for me. I get so depressed. All of my like joy chemicals are completely depleted. And then by July 8th, I'm back. But it's like a precarious couple of days, like mentally and physically. It's wild. Well, surely not the first person to get depressed because they ate hot dogs. No, I can speak to that. I think we've all been there.

But I'd love to just end on, God, this has been such a wonderful tour de force you've taken us on. And by the way, for our Patreon subscribers, we are going to be doing a book club with you where we've read the book together and we're going to be having a nice live chat with the author over Zoom. It's going to be so much fun. Head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover if you want to join. You don't have to have read the book to join, but if you have and

you want to, you can. For a fun final question, I just want to ask, what is your perfect hot dog? You described so many hot dogs, the bun, you know, are we talking grilled? Are we talking is the bun girl, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, could you assemble in your mind for us what your ideal hot dog would be of all of the components that you have tasted over the course of your journey? so we can all imagine it together yes uh so just before i say it i this is the perfect hot dog for me and it's not going to be the perfect hot dog for everybody and if you like things that i don't that's okay and you don't need to contact me about it and that's fine don't ask jamie don't yuck her yum alright I just am so afraid

of Chicago hot dog fans oh my god you took such a brave stance against the Chicago hot dog you think I was brave for saying the New York hot dogs were not bad which is just obviously true I was saying they were bad yeah but you saying and I was like

Jamie is she's in danger I got booed at my own book release show in Chicago. I really fucked around and found out with Chicago. Chicago people are so, look, Chicago is a wonderful city, but they're insecure about it. They're insecure and defensive. In a way that's not necessary. It's great there. I understand.

I understand why they feel that way, you know, on the third coast and all that, right? It doesn't get the love it deserves as a city. I agree with that. Sure. As a result, they're defensive about things that they, you know, are not actually that great. That's all. Much love to everybody in Chicagoago but you know have some self-confidence is what i would say just grab a bottle of ketchup and you know chug it uh

my perfect oh my god the ketchup people oh the ketchup all right it's a lot so i do put ketchup on my hot dog and not everyone's going to be okay with that i i love it i toast the bun i love a toasted bun i feel like it just gives you more uh i love a i love a half smoke but most importantly i want my hot dog split and grilled that is critical split like i love yes because then you get extra char and then you also it you get a little uh you know passage for your ketchup your mustard your relish and that's what I do I do a standard hot dog uh I you know I'm not picky about what's in it uh but I uh as far as like the meat, I like of it. I like an all beef hot dog, but I'm flexible there. Split, grilled, toasted bun, ketchup, mustard, relish, done. You're making me hungry right now, despite knowing all the horrible facts that I know

about how hot dogs are made. And that contradiction is at the soul of this book. And that's what I love so much about it. That made me revolted and hungry at the same time. Just like I feel when watching Joey Chestnut scarf down 70 hot dogs. Exactly. And so the book's called raw dog. I really hope people check us out.

Check it out. You can join us on a Patreon for our book club at patreon.com slash Adam Conover. Jamie, where can people find you and follow your work? Yeah, you can follow me on, I guess, Instagram is the best place right now at Jamie Christ Superstar. And I genuinely, I am curious about new, when I was going on the book tour, I found out even more hot dog facts that fascinated and revolted me. And I feel like I could keep talking about hot dogs forever. So if you have

a fascinating hot dog anecdote, I am amenable. I would like to know what it is. Oh, my God. We'll get those in the book club. And by the way, if you want to pick up a copy of the book, you can get it at factuallypod.com slash books. Jamie Loftus, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me.

This is so fun. Well, thank you once again to Jamie for coming on the show. Again, if you want to pick up a copy of the book, you can get it at factuallypod.com slash books. Hope you do.com slash books. Hope you do. It's wonderful. And you can join us on our Patreon book club

in just a couple weeks if you're interested. If you want to join that book club, that URL is patreon.com slash adamkhan over five bucks a month gets you every episode of the show ad free.

All those great community features for 15 bucks a month. I will read your name on this very show. So I want to thank Ryan Cowler, John McAvee, Scott Kaler, Algie Williams, and Doug Arley, and everybody else who supports the show

at the $15 a month level. I want to thank my producers, Tony Wilson and Sam Rodman, everybody here at HeadGum for making the show possible. If you want to find my tickets and tour dates, head to adamconover.net. I'm at Adam Conover wherever you get your social media. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time on Factually.