Factually! with Adam Conover - The Unheralded Story of Native Americans in Comedy with Kliph Nesteroff and Adrianne Chalepah

Episode Date: June 9, 2021

Despite their limited representation in the media, Native Americans have had a profound influence on American comedy. So why isn't Charlie Hill a household name? This week historian Kliph Nesteroff and comic Adrianne Chalepah chat with Adam about their new book We Had A Little Real Estate Problem, which tells the fascinating story of Native American comedy. Check it out at factuallypod.com/books. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So if all of that sounds good, if you want a big box of delicious snacks like this for yourself, use the code factually for $15 off your first order at Bokksu.com. That's code factually for $15 off your first order on Bokksu.com. I don't know the way. I don't know what to think. I don't know what to say. Yeah, but that's alright. Yeah, that's okay. I don't know anything. Hello, welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Conover. Hello, Factually fans, Factually friends, Factually. What if I was one of those podcasters who like listed all the different names for my fans at the beginning of the episode? Should I start doing that? I don't know. I'll think about it. Send me an email at factuallyatadamconover.net if you'd like me to start listing the names of all the fans when the show begins. But, you know, maybe we'll start doing that next week. For now, let's just jump right into it.

You know, Jackie Robinson is rightfully considered an American hero. He was the first black baseball player to play in Major League Baseball. And he did it, and by the way, was one of the best baseball players in history, despite the torrent of racist abuse that was heaped on him by supposed fans and by a lot of his fellow players. What he did was incredibly historically significant. But there's something a little strange in the way that we talk about Jackie Robinson, because if you ask a lot of Americans, a lot of white Americans specifically, they might tell you that Jackie Robinson was the first black baseball player. And that's not true.

If you're a student of baseball, you'll know that there existed for decades Negro Leagues, which featured hundreds of incredibly talented black baseball players who were every bit as talented and accomplished as their white counterparts in these segregated white leagues, but who received next to no recognition from the white establishment. So when we wrongly think of Jackie Robinson as being the first, well, we not only erase the contributions of all of those other black baseball players, we also, in so doing, hold up the importance of the white segregated space as though making it in that league was all that mattered when in reality there was tons of amazing baseball being played by people from all walks of life that is deserving of recognition. So why am I talking about this?

Well, a couple of weeks ago, I read an incredible book. It's by the author and comedy historian Cliff Nesteroff, and it's called We Had a Little Real Estate Problem, The Unheralded Story of Native Americans and Comedy. Now, comedy is my field. That's the baseball that I know best. That is the baseball that I myself work in. And let me tell you something. Comedy has a representation and diversity problem and has for a very long time. It has for a long time been a space where white voices have been elevated and have had an easier time than everybody else, white, straight, cis, male voices specifically. Now, that is something that the comedy industry

has been working on addressing by having diversity showcases and giving more opportunities to folks from marginalized backgrounds. And those are all great steps. But reading this book made me think completely differently about what recognizing true diversity really means. Because the story this book tells is of a century plus of incredibly funny Native American comedians working at an extremely high level in America without the recognition that they deserved. We're talking about Will Rogers, one of the most famous humorists in American history, who almost no Americans realized was actually Cherokee, or Charlie Hill, who was a contemporary of Richard Pryor, but never got the same credit

that Pryor did, or the hundreds and hundreds of incredibly funny Native American comedians who are working today at a very high level, making audiences laugh all over the country. They're just not doing it on TV yet for some reason. Someone hasn't opened the door up to them yet. You know, so often the gatekeepers who control the traditionally white spaces see their role as creating a Jackie Robinson, giving someone that first chance,

letting them be the first person to do it from that background, instead of turning a lens and a spotlight onto the incredible people who are already doing the work all over the country. That was a huge revelation for me. And God, this book is just full of revelations like this. So I want to get to the interview as quickly as I can. Today on the show, we've got the author

of the book, Cliff Nesteroff, and we have one of the incredibly funny comedians he profiles, Adrian Chalupa. And by the way, if you want to pick up a copy of the book, We Had a Little Real Estate Problem, you can get a copy at factuallypod.com slash books. That's factuallypod.com slash books. And when you buy it there, you'll be supporting not just this show, but also your local bookstore. Without further ado, let's get to the interview with Cliff and Adrian. Cliff and Adrian, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you. I love the book so much. I was interested in the topic going in, but the book itself, I think, covered so much more ground than I expected it to.

Like there was, I don't know, there were so many stories in it. Cliff, what drew you to write the book in the first place? And how do you tell people about it? How do you describe it? How do I describe it? Well, I try not to describe it. I try to hand it to people.

You know, it's like difficult to describe to white people because they have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, especially older people. They just don't seem to grasp it. You know, I live in Hollywood where you hear the phrase diversity all the time, and yet I see this glut of indigenous representation. I think it's changing a little bit. The cynic in me wonders if it will actually have staying power, but I feel like indigenous representation in Hollywood is very, very deficient, despite the fact that studio executives are constantly talking about diversity, diversity, diversity. And sometimes Indigenous peoples are just not on the non-native radar, especially in the United States. And I'm originally from Canada, where, you know,

there's like a national day of mourning once a year for genocidal residential schools. So it's a little bit more on the non-native radar in Canada. Not to say that life is better there for Indigenous peoples, quite to the contrary, but at least people know what it means when you use the phrase First Nations or talk about residential schools. So in Hollywood, California, where I hear diversity, diversity, diversity, people either don't know about that or they choose not to be aware of it. So it was a hard book for me to describe to a certain generation of non-Indigenous people or squares or what have you. Once people have this book in their hands or they listen to the audiobook, then it slowly reveals what it is about. And basically the premise of the book, more or less, is about the importance of representation and the type of heinous things that fill that vacuum when there is no representation.

And what drove me to write the book basically is that coming from Canada, moving to Hollywood and not seeing but try to do something of value as racism and fascism on the rise in America. So that the context in which I started writing the book was that pal of negative and intimidating Trump era politics in America. Yeah. And the book, I mean, the book covers so much ground. Like, I think a lot of white Americans, if you were to tell them, you know, here's a book about Native American comedy, they'd say, well, how long could that book be? Because they aren't aware of how much there is to write about. But you also write, there's a lot of just straight up history about America and Canada's relationship with indigenous peoples. But first, I want to bring Adrian in. Adrian, you are in the book.

You are written about in the book. What did you think of the project when Cliff came to you first as a native comic? I will talk to anybody who listens. I will talk to anybody who listens. I've spent my entire life just trying to feel heard and seen and also trying to justify my existence and trying to counter narrative. So, you know, anytime I get a chance to do that in my own words and tell my own tell my own story then i think it's it's beautiful of course uh we native people have had tons written about us by non-natives so that is not a foreign thing no pun intended but uh like my family has had anthropologists pop in and out for generations and study us because I come from a very rare dialect. And so anyway, I am very familiar with just talking to people about my people.

talking to people about my people and uh and and with cliff you know i thought it was really cool that he was doing his research and uh yeah and that's really all i ever ask of anybody is just do some research yeah well tell me a little about yourself in comedy like like how did you get started in comedy what's your story yeah so I uh grew up in Oklahoma I'm Kiowa and Apache and I got in trouble a lot in school for my mouth I was a class clown and that was not appreciated in conservative Bible Bell Oklahoma. And so I ended up getting kicked out of school. And then I went to a boarding school. Okay. And this is a government-ran school.

And it's still in operation. And it's basically where some Native kids will go when public school has failed them. And I was one of them. And this place really instilled a lot of pride in me, but also I saw how diverse we were. Like I met tribes from all over the place, from Alaska all the way to the East Coast, West Coast,

just all over. So it really expanded my view of who I was because I felt for a second there like I was an endangered species and it was a very weird time. And then when I met so many other Native kids, I was like, oh, we're not endangered. Like, there's a lot of us. My school was a pretty decent sized school. So like, it was pretty cool. So that's, but anyway, I have a big mouth.

I talk a lot of shit. And comedy has always been such a fun thing for me. And I can't tackle sensitive subject matter without, without comedy. At this point, it's a crutch at this point. I think my therapist would be like, at this point, I think comedy helps you treat sensitive subject matter better.

I don't think it's a crutch. I think it's an enhancement. It's like, it's a bionic. It's a bionic superpower to use comedy. That's what I told my therapist. I was like, I don was like i don't you don't know the powers who's you might have to drop this therapist i don't know about this therapist

if they if they don't understand this oh i'm looking dm me therapist i don't know if i can solicit therapy on here, but yeah. Well, and how long have you been, how long have you been doing comedy and where do you do it? Yeah. So I started stand up, uh, geez, like 15 years ago and and just did a ring of casinos and tribal conferences. At first, I was very niche in tribal communities and wasn't really getting out there to like the club scene and the mainstream type of scene too much, mostly because I live far, far from LA and far from New York City and far from, you know, the comedy scenes. So, but then I pushed myself to start doing more road gigs. And

so then I became a road comic for a while. And that's how I got my feet wet with non-native audiences. And yeah, so now I am starting to book some live shows later this year. And they mostly are for tribal organizations. Like I'm still very much a niche comedian, but I like money. I mean, aren't we all niche comedians? Like, I don't know. There's very few comics who aren't serving some audience who's like, oh, I really like this person. It's true.

It's so subjective. So that's absolutely true. Absolutely true. Well, Cliff, one of the things that really I did not expect about the book is how much, you know, you're both covering Native Comics today and throughout history. Just tell me a little bit about how you came up with that lens and like, what is it that you were trying to reveal? You said you had a mission behind the book, right? That you were like, let me do something that's actually, you you know worth something or or is you know trying to accomplish something and what was it that you were trying to reveal to folks with the book well i just want people to be informed you know i tried most people i think read my books and think that they know what my opinions

are but it's i don't think you could i think people could make assumptions about what my opinions are. But I don't think you could. I think people could make assumptions about what my opinions are. But I try and take a backseat, even though it's hard because I have a prominent attitude. You know, most historians don't use words like cocksucker every other sentence. But coming out of stand up, I do. So it's like I got this weird kind of hybrid where I'm like, part scholar, part pothead. And it kind of creates this sort of weird dynamic where I want to entertain people, but I also want to educate and inform them. And I don't necessarily think it's my role to educate people, but I do want my books to illuminate people and for them to walk away. Because in America, especially, people make such broad assumptions about things.

They think comedy is under attack. Oh, cancel culture. Oh, PC culture. If you go back to the earliest stages of show business in vaudeville, minorities in particular are always airing grievances about how they're being portrayed on the stage and would you please stop this and fighting for representation and so this tug of war has been going on the whole goddamn time but people seem to think it's a brand new thing and

maybe it's because the hostility of social media puts it in our face on an hourly basis, but the general grievances remain the same. There's an anecdote in this book about the silent movie era in 1911, an amalgam of tribal leaders met with the president, William Howard Taft, the year 1911, and said, could you please do something to stop all these racist stereotypes of Native Americans in silent movies? Could you please do something to stop this spread of misinformation and distorted history? The year 1911, consider that Charlie Chaplin wouldn't be famous for another three or four years and D.W. Griffith wouldn't be anointed as this blockbuster filmmaker for another four years. So this is like the earliest days of the movies. People are always or already complaining that there's racist disinformation on the screen.

And nobody bothered to adjust that, really. bothered to adjust that really um minorities a lot of different minorities had less power in the body politic in 1911 than in 2021 it's still not equal it's still not balanced but um i think more white people maybe i hope are a little bit more aware of some of these things than they were in 1911 who knows who's to say if they are or aren't. But yeah, it's been a thing that's been going on forever. So those are one of the things that I want to sort of illuminate for people. Don't make assumptions based on your own ignorance or the bullshit that you see on social media. Like, here's some evidence that this cycle has been going on for a long time.

Yeah. And the call for greater representation as well, like it's around that time also that I believe you wrote about a group of, you know, Native activists who are trying to get less white folks in face paint playing Indigenous characters on television or in films, sorry, movies and television.

Yeah, Jim Thorpe, in fact, after he became, you know, famous Olympian, Sac and Fox Olympian, he used his celebrity to try and push for some of those changes, even though he himself wasn't a Hollywood actor. Just like today, sometimes when somebody becomes really successful as an athlete, they want to put them in the movies. And so Jim Thorpe was sort of integrated into the Hollywood culture briefly. And he said or he kind of organized this group with another civil rights organization. And they had this slogan, only Indian actors for Indian roles.

They wanted to stop this trend of white people in just random face paint and feathers, which had no bearing on reality. They weren't portraying specific tribes, or if they were, it was this totally distorted version, you know, it was just like this amalgam Hollywood fiction. And Jim Thorpe was like, no, we want only Indian actors for only Indian roles. And Hollywood studio heads would be like, oh, that would be great. But there aren't any. There aren't any Native American actors. And then they were like, no, here's a list. And here's a list with all of their tribal affiliations. And here's a list of people

that could work as advisors. Yeah, that was the late 20s, 1930s. It sounds like something that would happen today. It sounds like Illuminatives. Yeah. You know, right know right yeah so it's amazing how long this shit has been going on and how long uh voices have been ignored and overlooked and uh it's just unbelievable really well and and dances with wolves as a film was considered revolutionary for that casting in what the 90s and then that movie triggered a whole new wave of stereotypes because it changed the stereotype to a certain degree from the Native American villain always, you know, being an adversary to this opposite, like all knowings communicating with nature, that stoic nobleman creating a totally different stereotype. So neither really are helpful in terms of what white people perceive as whatever they perceive. Yeah. Well, what you say about trying to open people's minds to this, like, I think it's really fascinating that your previous book, The Comedians, is, you know, covering, I think, what a lot of people consider the canon of comedy.

I think that what a lot of people consider the canon of comedy, but it, your new book really made me realize how limited our understanding of American comedy often is that like a people think that comedy is just like, okay, you know you know, Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Eddie Murphy,

let's toss Joan Rivers in there. And like, that's the canon of American comedians. The comedians you cover in the book are like, there's an entire world of comedy that people are not paying attention to. And there's worlds within that world. In my opinion, the biggest mistake that people make in America when they study history is they confuse fame with significance, and they're not the same. So we tend to study only those comedians who became famous, and we're like, these are the significant people. But there's other people along the way

that changed things, that tried to change things, that were important voices, or that paved the way for those people who later did become famous. But these people never became famous. So if you study the Chitlin Circuit, my God, there's hundreds of black stand-up comics all throughout the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. You've never heard of them.

If you were to do a study of African-American comedians, you would start with the famous ones. You would talk about fox and richard pryor and eddie murphy but there's all these people who were not given opportunities in what we could broadly maybe call the mainstream culture or the white show business culture um who were significant and who paved the way and that's true of indigenous performers as well so So I like the idea. You could tell the same, you can tell the entire history of America and tell the same stories that have been already told and use a completely different subset of characters than the ones that we're used to and still come up with a similar theme, but different individual stories. So I am always interested in

writing about the stories people don't already know about. Why would you write things that we all already know, that we've all already heard? And actually, I got criticized for that in my first book where people are like, oh, he wrote this whole book and talk about, you know, whatever, some famous anecdote about Jack Benny that's in a hundred other books. And it was intentional. I was like, why would I include what's in a hundred other books? I want to tell the stories that aren't in books already. I mean, it seems like logical to me, but that is maybe one of my only like real modus operandi is when I write. I want to tell the stories that you don't already know. Yeah. Like Adrian, I'm wondering that, like, I feel like I struggle with this in comedy, that there are comics out there and comedy

fans out there who say, well, this is what standup comedy is. You know, they're like, oh, whoever's at the comedy cellar, that's standup comedy, you know, and everything, uh, who even knows what else is going on. Right. And I'm often going, my God, there's so much comedy out there. I'm doing something different. Every comic I know is doing something different. I mean, how does that do you ever have that sense as a comic? Yeah, it feels very high school. It's like we're part of this club and you got to be part of this club where you're not real like you're not a real cool kid. where you're not real, like you're not a real cool kid. And I've always been left out of the club anyway.

So I felt like, you know, okay, but eventually people are going to get tired of seeing the same thing. They're going to want to mix it up eventually. I've been asked to go up to the arctic circle because they were like we're so tired of like just straight white dudes that come through here like that's that's all they get and they don't ever you know if they're feeling wild they might throw in a woman every once in a while but like they're're not, you know, I and I don't like to attack like the booking people because I've booked shows like for, you know, I've been on that end of things. And so I understand that, you know, you have you only a you're like usually working really fast and you're like, hi, can you can you come for one hundred dollars? OK, you know, like you're you're moving really fast, but also you're not like lifting up every rock to see who's out there.

You're not really trying to like diversify anything. You're just like trying to get paid. So, yeah, I just, but I also think that there is a subconscious, deliberate attempt to erase Native people, like just because it's so convenient. It's so convenient. centaurum you know like it's like we can raise american pride if we can sell this narrative that this was just this wide open space nobody was using it and yeah you know then it's this beautiful dream that we all thought of the erasure is really convenient with all of that so to me it's like you know getting my foot in the door but know, getting my foot in the door, but also like getting my foot in the door and then being able to like swing it open

so other people can come in. Because it's just, I do think the erasure is intentional. I do, because it's so convenient. Like all the way on the resources. Sometimes I do the math, like money, money math. And I'm like, there's a lot of money in this country off of our resources and land and our culture. So I've always, I've always held the belief that we just have a, we have a PR problem. Really? That's what it is. We have a PR problem. So hopefully this book will help our PR problem. Really, that's what it is. We have a PR problem.

So hopefully this book will help our PR problem. But I also think it's just taking, you know, we got to meet in the middle. Like, it's not that Native people are hiding from anyone. Like, I don't know anyone that's hiding. My family is loud as hell. Like, if we were to all go out to dinner, we would be very loud and not invisible at all. But I think that it just kind of takes America really wanting to learn history.

See, my problem here is just, America doesn't value history. They don't, they just go, no, no, no. This is a story I was told and we're going to stop there. We don't want to hear your side. You know? a community of comedy, a history of comedy, that native comedy is so not well known in the public imagination, you know, that like, I've been doing comedy as long as you have, you know, about, about 10 years that I've been doing standup. And I feel I've also been performing in niches, you know, like I performed for about eight of those 10 years. It was basements in New York city, you know, and most of my jokes were about the subway and about,

I don't know, hipsters or whatever. It was like shit about jokes about Brooklyn. You know what I mean? How is that different from you said you're doing, you're doing jokes for tribal organizations, et cetera. And then also starting to branch out. Um, I had a question here about like, Hey, how do you adjust your comedy for a native audience versus, you know, broadening it out? Well, I'm like, hold on a second. That's, how is that any different than what I did when I was doing New York comedy and I started touring and I had to learn to speak to other people.

And why is the place that I came from the more famous comedy niche than the comedy niche that you were performing in? Yeah, no, you nailed it. It is like, you know, you start in a niche and then you want to broaden your audience. So you do throw in more mainstream ideas and you go from there.

So it isn't any different than, you know, if I'm going to go play a show for, because I do a lot of rural, rural, I can't say it still, rural shows. Yeah, it's hard because I do have an Okie, an Oklahoma accent. And so it messes up my R's. But I do a lot of, you know, country type of shows.

And then I can go to the city and just switch too. And we can talk about subways you know um well speaking speaking of history uh before we go to break i want to make sure that we talk about charlie hill in terms of the such a you know main character in the book such a towering figure in the book and i really have to to show my ignorance. I thought I knew a hell of a lot about standup comedy. When I was starting standup comedy, I read a lot and I listened to a lot and I was not, I think I'd heard the name, but I was not familiar with Charlie Hill and his importance. And yeah, I wonder if you guys could similarly enlighten the rest of our listeners about him.

Charlie Hill was really one of the original comedy store comedians. I think the first time he showed up on the doorstep of the comedy store on the Sunset Strip was in late 1974. So that's even before David Letterman arrived at the world famous comedy store. But in terms of what Adrian was saying about erasure, they just did a comedy store documentary on Showtime and Charlie Hill isn't in it, you know? Really? Yeah. So, again, it's that thing about fame versus significance.

Charlie Hill never became a household name despite the fact that he did the Richard Pryor show in 1977. It really anointed him and established him in the industry. And the comedy club boom was just starting in 77. More and more comedy clubs are opening up. By 1980, there's all these comedy clubs. By 1985, it's just like crazy with comedy clubs across America. So Charlie Hill was well poised to start touring all these clubs after he did the Richard Pryor show in 77, did The Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson in 1978, the first Native American comedian to appear on late night TV,

so far the last Native American comedian to do The Tonight Show or late night television. Wow. And then he did Late Night with David Letterman in 85. He did The Merv Griffin Show, Mike Douglas Show. I think he did Arsenio in the early 90s. So he was a working comedian and a respected comedian. And everybody at the comedy store from that era, you talk to them. They love Charlie Hill.

He was really funny. He was like, yeah, go ahead. Like I as I was listening to the book, I did. I did audio book. Don't blame me. I was I was on the road. Hey, man, I'm proud of my audio book. What are you saying?

You recorded the audio for the audiobook, did you not? Didn't you listen to it? I did. You don't recognize my voice? I do. I mean, it's just an excellent performance. Who did you think was reading it? Not a lot of authors can read their own books. Like, authors aren't known for their wonderful

speaking voices. You did a wonderful job. This is that historian who says cocksucker. But it's a it's it's a a feat of performance to do an audiobook you gotta sit there for a long time i've never done one it's like hours and hours yeah it's the number of lozenges sometimes when you like read about records like a famous like uh album and you find out the context in which it was recorded like there's a famous uh george clinton song from 1968 called uh hey hey mama or what you're gonna do mama and it was recorded during the detroit riots and they had

the studio barricaded and so when you listen to that song with that context it has this other like level to it this audiobook was recorded not to compare myself to that but this audiobook was recorded at the height of the pandemic and And there was a stay at home order. Do not go outside. And they were like, except for essential services. And because this is Hollywood, essential services included like podcasts and other bullshit. So I had to go to this studio in West Hollywood to record the audio book. And it was like nerve wracking because the studio was run

by this old guy and he was sneezing. And I was like, what is going on? I'm like, I'm trying to like, you know, do this audio book. And there's a director in New York in your ear and I'm in Los Angeles and I'm from Canada. So he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You just said, sorry, take it again. It's sorry. I go, it is like, you can't use your own accent with an audio book. Well, because my accent is so subtle when it comes up, it it is like you can't use your own accent with an audiobook well because my accent is so subtle when it comes up it just sounds like i'm pronouncing things wrong you know if i had a british accent you'd be like oh yeah garage but if with with my accent you're like this guy doesn't know how to pronounce things like you sound like you're mocking yourself that's

how i sound yeah so a bad accent of myself. Yeah. Well, so when I was listening to the audiobook, as I was, I was like, let me go watch a clip of Charlie Hill. Let me go watch his first, that Richard Pryor performance, some other ones. And, like, he was so good. Like, I was like, why are people deifying? I love Richard Pryor, too. But, you know, he was doing very daring material at that time and, you know, things that nobody had seen before. And like Charlie Hill's material was so daring, so funny. And why is this guy not on Mount Rushmore with all the other folks who are so often up there?

Well, again, again, it has to do with that that American conceit of fame versus significance. It's like if you're famous, you're in the history books. It doesn't necessarily, it shouldn't mean that you're good just because you're famous. We know that from American culture. Fame doesn't mean quality, but it does mean attention. And so the history books focus on those who are famous. And Charlie Hill was famous in indigenous communities like very famous every indigenous community still to this day knows charlie hill and adrian's nodding yes and people

have stories oh yeah i met him at a conference in 2011 he was so nice to me or i saw him on tv he was my parents favorite that's why i did comedy like that type of story came up again and again and again every time i was researching Charlie Hill. But with white people, I never gained traction. But the Richard Pryor thing, Richard Pryor saw Charlie Hill on stage at the comedy store. And Richard Pryor felt that Charlie Hill was doing for Native Americans what Richard Pryor was doing for African-Americans. And so the first time he saw Charlie Hill perform, he came up to him afterwards and he said, the quote is,

motherfucker, you talk to those white people like they're dogs. And Richard Pryor was so excited about this. He dragged Charlie Hill into the parking lot. They smoked a joint together. And this is a significant moment. They're smoking a joint together in the parking lot. And Richard Pryor says to Charlie Hill, have you done TV? And Charlie Hill goes, no, man, I'm brand new. I'm green. I haven't done TV. And Richard Pryor goes,

I'll get you on. And he did. So Richard Pryor had this sketch show coming out in 77 on NBC, a primetime sketch show. It had all these comedy store comedians. Paul Mooney casted the program and hired all these comedy store comedians who were all unknown, including Robin Williams, Sandra Bernhardt, Marsha Warfield. And they hired Charlie Hill to do stand-up on the program. He's the only person in this very short-lived series that does stand-up as opposed to sketch comedy. And it was that famous performance that you've seen. Mitzi Shore from the Comedy Store was in the front row to show her moral support. And it really changed his life and established him. But it was Richard Pryor who felt a kinship with Charlie Hill and a solidarity and saw his perspective as similar to his own perspective in terms of trying to transcend subjugation or transcend the way indigenous people had been treated or looked at or talked about, you know, one of Charlie Hill's key jokes when he would open up his act and he does it in that Richard Pryor set, I think is indicative of this. He goes, you know, my name is Charlie Hill. I'm Oneida. Probably a lot of you never knew that American Indians were stand up comedians. that American Indians were stand-up comedians. Well, we never thought you were too funny either, you know.

And that joke has so much truth to it, you know. And a lot of undercurrent there that you could read into. So Richard Pryor and Charlie Hill had this close kinship. Yeah. I mean, when I was watching Charlie Hill's work, in comparison to what you were talking about with, you know, Native American representation on television before that is white actors and face paint doing a parody and doing like a narrative that was written by people for white people. And, you know, there's pandering to that sensibility. He's up there and he's just telling the truth from his own perspective. And he's doing it really blunt he's saying yeah i mean our land was stolen from us basically that's the premise of a bunch of his jokes well that's the title of the book right yeah exactly we had a little real estate problem so to do that to do that in the 70s right to just say those things bluntly that must have been so profound

for people and the book is full of like example of after example of people saying i saw charlie hill and they made me you know he made me realize me realize that like I could I could be a comedian to native people saying this. Adrian, did you ever have an experience like that watching? This is such a clear version of representation matters. I'm curious if you ever had had one of those moments yourself. Yes, I I'm lucky because I have my father is a film buff and a comedy buff. And at a young age, he really started schooling me in comedy, you know, both non-native and native. And one of the first comedians he showed me was Charlie Hill.

and I think he was just so proud of him that he made it to late night and, you know, was, was, was employed and doing these things. So, so he, he, he showed me these clips and it did put in my brain, Oh, cool. You know, like, um, it can be done. Uh, of course the clip he showed me was from the seventies and this was in the early 2000s. So I was like, oh, is there not any more? OK, but we needed an update. But like but with Charlie Hill, like I all I have never personally met him, but I have a lot of friends who have, and one of them told me that like they performed and he was in the front row taking notes like of their, of their set. And then afterwards said, you know, oh, great job. I have some notes, you know, and just like, but, but was really supportive.

Like, so, you know, just like, so, and I think that's why he in with native people, I feel like we do live in a different world sometimes when it comes to media, because like we will have all our famous people that we they're they're famous to us and they're celebrities. And if they go to a powwow or they go to a big tribal event, they're going to get swarmed, you know, with pictures and autographs and all this stuff. But then, you know, the rest of America has no idea who they are. So we we have a subculture within America that's that runs pretty strong. And with Charlie Hill, I do know one thing I did when I first started doing comedy. I did a new magazine article. Someone interviewed me for a magazine called Native Peoples, and they were doing just, you know, little highlights of some comedians. And the interviewer told me, yeah, I just got off the phone with Charlie Hill and and, you know, told him that I was going to interview you.

And he said that he can't wait to see you on stage killing it. And so for me, just the beginning of my career, I was just like, wait, Charlie Hill's excited to see me. You know, it did give me a lot of a lot of hope and support. And that's been my experiences. My community has been so good to me, like almost like to a fault where like I have always said, I will you guys, I will stop telling these jokes if you guys stop encouraging me because they keep doing it. Amazing. Well, we got to take a really quick break. I have so much more to ask you too.

We'll be right back with more Cliff Nesteroff and Adrian Chalapa. I wanted to ask you, Adrian, that you mentioned much earlier that, you know, before you were a young person, you met all those other folks that you felt like an endangered species. And I wonder about that dynamic a little bit, because, like, I think I am as guilty as any white person who's learning about this stuff for the first time to go like, Oh wow. Like I didn't even know, like who knew like all that sort of thing. And what is that like for you saying,

well, hold on a second, asshole. Like I've been here the whole time. Like we've been doing this, like, like this com like, you know, native comics have been doing it for the entire time.

You're behind, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's just something you get used to as a native person because people will tell you to your face. it's just something you get used to as a native person because people will tell you to your face wow we thought you we thought you guys went extinct and and then you know on one hand like I get it the history books are super behind so I understand that but then I also like what always bothered me about that is like okay so wait you thought that there

was a mash genocide and everybody went a like a successful genocide and it was like and we all went extinct and you were like okay with that and then you said it to my face um so I that that would always give me an attitude because I was like this is my this is like I don't know it's just such a weird perspective for me to be like, yeah, we knew that like your ancestors were all massacred. And so what are you doing now? Like, it's just, it's a weird kind of thing. It's like a weird, like, how's the weather? But it's such a personal question because I do have ancestors that were in massacres and like and went through some really bad shit and of course and have actively healed tried to heal myself from

historical trauma but uh but the whole endangered species thing like I as a teenager that's how I felt because also like our tribes when you're, you get little cards and the cards from the government, like the first card you ever get is from the government. And so it's like it's like I felt like livestock. I felt a little bit like a prized heifer. And and then even our school like and this is true everywhere. I think it's still this case. So a school that has like a high Native American population gets money, like extra money. So they'll like have all the Native students fill out paperwork, like, you know, to money from the government because I go to school here. And and so that that was a weird thing for my head to process as a kid. I was like, there's a there's a there's a dollar on my head.

And there's also a a blood quantum. I'll be honest, what you're describing that also sounds like that happens in the entertainment industry with like, you know, now they're being much more of a focus on diversity in hiring or in casting and all these sorts of issues and as there should be. But it strikes me, is that like a similar dynamic where it's like, oh, you're you've got something very valuable, like your background is, oh, that's really good, except that, you know, it's like it's it's like back and forth. It's, you know, two-faced. It's like you love me or you don't love me. Like, does that feel strange?

Does that happen to you? It's just strange because in this country, we have a fascination with Native people. But the fascination comes from the romanticization of us. And so I feel like people are a little bit let down when they actually meet us because we're just like, I'm a little bit of a dingy kind of airhead sometimes. And I think that's not what they really signed up for. Like, I think they want me in the forest, like talking to spirits and doing sacred things. And I'm over here like lost on my iPhone. I don't know how to get back to the highway.

It's just, I think they don't, they don't know what they're getting, you know? And they want what they, the idea of us. They want their story, their version of us, which is this like mystical Indian, right? And so i and then i have this joke about johnny depp because uh i feel like this country now with especially the dna test right they have all exploded everybody wants to be native i've seen the dna test

advertised that way like the like the one of them was running an ad that was like oh i found out i was part cherokee like uh it was like this is bizarre to like they're like offering people that promise of this weird fantasy thing. Yeah. And then it's like, but what do you do with that information? Do you just like show up to the Cherokee tribe and you're like, here I am. Like, you know, people do that. People do that. And I mean, you know, every tribe is different. My tribe is like actually kind of really strict with membership. So we're like, we are an elite club.

You can find whatever you want in your DNA. And we'll be like, Matt, you weren't us when it wasn't cool. So you can't sign up now but uh we're like health insurance yeah we're like we close um anyway but like uh johnny depp is like the perfect example because and bless his heart but uh like he i i my the joke goes that like he he wanted to be indian he got adopted by the comanche tribe. This is true. He got adopted. Yeah, they had an adoption ceremony.

The Comanches took him in. And then immediately he started having money and women problems. So I was like, I don't think people really know what they're signing up for. Because if you really want to be be native it involves some poverty and some lateral oppression but that's hilarious but but there's this there's this dynamic of you know hey people in the entertainment industry saying hey we need uh visibility you know diversity visibility let's make native comics visible or etc you know diversity showcases diversity programs hiring things like that but that makes it seem like there's this impression

that the entertainment industry has where it's like oh we need to give these people a shot we need to like make them exist you know we need to like make it possible for native people to do comedy do you ever feel like well hold on but we were here the whole time like make it possible for native people to do comedy. Do you ever feel like, well, hold us, but we were here the whole time. Like, yeah, it's, it feels like a make a wish foundation gone wrong. Because, and I've literally heard, I've heard this. This is like, so are you, are you native American or disabled? are you Native American or disabled? Like we, and nothing against, you know,

the people with special needs and disabled, people with disabilities, love you, love you, love you. But like, we are always, we are always, it does feel like a make a wish foundation. It's like, oh, we got a Native American. Oh, she's from the reservation. And, um, you know,

it feels very charitable. And I even feel like that child. I'm like, you're going to make my dreams come true. Like, um, it is weird. It is.

And I will be that child, but it's, it is weird. Uh, and yeah, we've been here the whole time and we're going to perform regardless. That's the thing. Like we're going to keep doing our crafts. We're going to keep time and we're going to perform regardless that's the thing like we're going to keep doing

our crafts we're going to keep performing we're going to keep making comedy and we're going to like make fun of everybody and it's just like basically do you want to be in on the joke because like we're doing it anyway so you might as well be in on the joke yeah I mean it should feel more like

hey do you want to, hey, you know, a TV executive, do about Will Rogers, which I did not expect. Like one of the most famous, celebrated American humorists up there with like Mark Twain. And I didn't know before reading the book, he was Cherokee. And that was like a major part of his identity and his perspective. And I mean, I'm not no expert on Will Rogers, but I feel like that should have come up. Yeah. And just to distinguish for your listeners, he was not a white guy tending to be Cherokee or one of these people saying I'm one 16th Cherokee. When Will Rogers wrote about anything to do with indigenous rights whatsoever, if you look at his newspaper columns at the height of his fame in the 1920s, he says, we Indians, us Cherokee. He's always saying we or us. He's not saying they or the. So he always identified as Cherokee. And he was

raised in what in those days they called Indian Territory. Later, it became Oklahoma. His descendants, like his grandparents and great-grandparents, were involved in the Trail of Tears. It's in the book, but there's a convoluted history where his grandparents took a deal with the White House to move willingly instead of what happened with the Trail of Tears. willingly instead of um you know what happened with the trail of tears anyways um yeah will rogers was native american you still hear his name referenced all the time and you would think that at the same time they would reference the fact that he was this prominent indigenous celebrity and it's never mentioned it's like completely whitewashed so you talk about erasure uh uh will rogers wasn't erased but his entire backstory was and he was kind of rebranded as this white all-american simple homespun cowboy when they mentioned will rogers and i don't know who they is but like through the lexicon of yeah of whenever he's mentioned he's often referenced as simple, the simple American, the simple, simple homespun cowboy.

Like the dude was indigenous, born in 1879, then becomes the most famous celebrity on earth. Could not be more complex, you know. They rebrand him as a simplistic. Yeah, a really, really interesting and complicated character. I myself didn't know that much about him before I started researching him. I knew that he was Native American, but I too was sort of brainwashed by this version that made me not want to be interested in him when I was writing my previous book, because the way he sold to us is this boring simpleton. Everybody likes him, a great American wit. And then they quote these lines that make no sense. Never met a man I didn't like. I'm like,

well, where's the funny part? Where's the joke part? Where's the wit part? It's just a sentence. And what the fuck does that mean? Never met a man I didn't like. Why is that famous? And then when I looked into it, I found out the reason it was famous is because they put that quote on a postage stamp in 1952, a Will Rogers postage stamp. And that's what made that quote famous. It wasn't because people thought it was this brilliant quip. Oh, wow. You know. Anyways, there's so much about Will Rogers, but I think it's like kind of telling the fact this guy is like the most famous celebrity of his time.

There's still things named after him everywhere here in Los Angeles. There's Will Rogers State Park and a Will Rogers Beach and a Will Rogers Museum. And in Oklahoma, there's all kinds of highways and things named after Will Rogers and everywhere. There's hospitals. And so people know the name, but seldom is his indigenous backstory included. And in my mind, you would think that would be the number one thing that they would mention, you know, especially this goes back to that thing I was saying about Hollywood and diversity. But if somebody is the first prominent African-American to do something, that's, you know, will be the first thing that we mention about that person. With Will Rogers, his indigenous backstory is like the last thing that's mentioned. It's like if nobody mentioned that Jackie Robinson was black or something like that.

It's like it is. Yeah, it is like that. And so it's sort of strange. So I tried to recalibrate his position in the book. Most of the book is not me actually writing. It's me just quoting people I talk to. So for instance, Adrian talks about blood quantum in the book. And the first time I talked to Adrian over the phone, I was like, I don't think a lot of white people even know what the phrase blood quantum means. Is it a James Bond bond movie that's what it sounds like to me yeah i like that better so when i talked to adrian for the first time i was like could you explain for the white people at home blood quantum in your own words what what is it what are the problems

behind it if any of the history of it blah blah blah what should people know about blood quantum and so that's what's in the book. It's not me explaining blood quantum. It's Adrian explaining blood quantum verbatim. I just quoted her. So I did that for the majority of the book. For somebody like Will Rogers from the past, I researched his life and I curated every single line I could find in his writings about Native Americans,

which were quite a lot. And I'm proud of the fact that I was able to put them all in one find in his writings about native Americans, which were quite a lot. And I'm proud of the fact that I was able to put them all in one place in his own words. Here's Will Rogers talking about being Cherokee or where he's from and his attitudes about different native issues. I don't think that had been done before. So I'm proud to, to have done that.

I mean, it's such a, it's such an inversion of literally the only thing I knew about him was that he was the cowboy comedian right the uh and i was like no i should have known that he was the cherokee comedian um but i guess part of it is also it's the america's erasure of the fact that there were native american cowboys as well that we separated those two things out yeah i mean the attitude is always the stereotype. If you don't fit the stereotype, then you can't. Yeah.

How could he be Cherokee? He was a cowboy. He was wearing a cowboy hat instead of feathers. How could he possibly be? And that is such a ridiculous conceit, but that is sort of

the conceit. And he himself never said that he wasn't. He used to bill himself when he was touring in Vaudeville as the Cherokee Kid. Willville as the Cherokee Kid. Will Rogers, the Cherokee Kid.

That was his initial billing when he was touring around. So he never hit it. He was an enrolled member. And in 1906, he received a payment of reparations for land that he lost, that his family lost during the Dawes Act of 1887. So he was very much a prominent Native American figure. Wow. I mean, there's so many stories like this in this book. I really recommend people checking out. I'm curious to ask either of you, do you feel that, you know, this, this historical erasure, this

lack of visibility, is this changing at all? Given, you know, there's been so much talk in Hollywood about these issues. Do you feel, Adrienne, I see you making a face, so I'm curious to know what you'll say. Do you feel that, that positive movement has been made or is it all, you know, optics? that positive movement has been made or is it all, you know, optics? Yes, I can, I can say it is, it is changing because all at one time there were, there were last year, I think there were three shows with native writers caught, you know,

greenlit at the same time with native main characters. And then one that I had the pleasure of working on is called Rutherford Falls. Oh, it's so good. Yeah. And it was funny because I was listening to Sierra Teller Ornelas talk about the process and everything. And then they were talking about how they had a wealth of talent. Because I think in the past, executives and bigwigs were like, well, we can't make a show like this. We don't, you know, we don't have this. We don't have that. And blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they prove they just prove that completely wrong.

They had so much talent to draw upon and things are definitely changing. It's it's almost like we just been waiting, just kind of just like waiting for the chance to pounce and tell our stories. And now that time is here. And now, I mean, it was weird. It was like, I went from like getting no auditions and nobody would call me back. And it was just this weird thing where,

and I was used to it. I'm cool with rejection. And I was so used to it. And then all of a sudden, like, yeah, it was like a bunch of auditions and a bunch of characters and a lot of stories. And I was like, this is weird. This is happening. So it's pretty cool. And I think it's just going to keep happening. And what really changed for me is when Rick Santorum got fired from CNN. And let me tell you why.

Because in the past, you could be anybody, anyone. And you could say anything racist about natives at any point. And your job would never be on the line. Your political career would never be on the line. There were literally no repercussions to trashing or being racist to natives. And then this was the first time where I saw the political power actually take place. And it has a lot to do with our organizing

and we're here and we're paying attention and we have Twitter accounts. But also like people don't know that Arizona got flipped to blue because in part because of natives. Like natives helped flip Arizona to a Democratic state because they have a lot of numbers and they voted and that's what happened and they organized. And so like things are changing where the visibility is there, but it's like, do you want to see it? Because even when we flipped Arizona, CNN was like doing the demographics,

you know, white voters, black voters, Latino. And then they did a graphic for natives that said something else. Like they wouldn't even list, they wouldn't even list us. So now list us so now the big joke in indian country is like oh yeah i'm a proud something else uh because this is the shit that we deal with it's like even when we organize and we vote and we have a big voice and we're like doing big things you know media networks will be like,

we can't quite figure out what these people are and what they're doing. Oh, there's something else. And so anyway, that's the big joke. Things are changing. And so now I love it that people are having to be like, wait, can we not say powwow anymore? No, you can't. You're gonna get roasted.

People are going to make fun of you. Well, that's the best response, right? To be roasted. Like, that is, just to know that someone's going to come make fun of you is like, that's the best justice in this situation. For your ignorance. Like, you don't

need to, you know, Rick Santorum getting fired fired him getting made fun of is the best part like for like what a what a dumb ass thing to say yeah and you know it's the it's the least that could it's not like it used to be okay my answer is i'm kiowa and apache okay we used to literally circle the wagons and burn them we took all the supplies and we burned them and it was so bad that the military had to come in and put a Fort Seal,

Fort Seal is what it's called, right next to us to just keep an eye on us because we were very upset. We were very upset with us. So we're not burning wagons anymore. So the least that we could do is roast and not burn wagons.

And that's where we're at. I will say, though, you said that the best thing is to make fun of Rick Santorum. I do think that him getting fired is the best thing. He was getting made fun of for three weeks and then they finally fired the cocksucker. But a lot of us were waiting for that son of a bitch to be fired. And it seemed to be taking forever. And at the exact same week that Rick Santorum made those comments, I think it was on a Tuesday or at least that video came out on a Tuesday. That Sunday, I was in a new show on CNN called Story of Late Night. And I was proud to be in the show and I wanted to promote the show. of late night and I was proud to be in the show and I wanted to promote the show. And here I have this book that is all about, you know, the history of the Rick Santorum's and the fuckery that they

engage in. And I was very torn, you know, and, and, and this is going to sound really flippant. Obviously I have no idea what it is like to be indigenous in America, but for a week, I felt this fucking terror inside of me where I was like, do I like fucking burn my bridges to speak out? Do I stay silent because I want to be on TV? You know, I was totally torn apart here with a crisis of conscience, knowing the subject matter and the premise of my new book. And am I a hypocrite for not doing more for not like, I'm on CNN, and they're the ones that are paying this son of a bitch who's spreading this racist disinformation, which I supposedly as a decent white ally I'm speaking out against. So I had all this shit swirling around my mind and my conscience. And it was a weird and awkward series a week.

So all the making fun of Rick Santorum was small comfort for me where I was just like, what is the solution? And I think everybody now, because of corporate consolidation, a lot of us are working for the devil, essentially. You boycott CNN, you're

boycotting AT&T. AT&T owns HBO. They own this, they own that. And then what are your other options? You got HBO, Viacom, Comcast, Disney or News Corp, all cock-sucking corporations. This book is published by Simon & Schuster. They're owned by Viacom. They just gave a book deal to Mike Pence. They gave $2 million to John Bolton. I feel the same way when I go to Chick-fil-A. We got to pick our poison. So it's all good, you know?

Well, the fact that, you know, there is some change happening here is very encouraging. How do you suggest, I'd like to hear for both of you how folks at home can participate in it how they can you know what what are your favorite native comics that they should check out uh and how how can they go see you know how can they be a part of this okay well uh i say just just follow comed, you know, just like follow causes and stay educated. And if you think you know, you probably don't. So do a little more research and yeah, just stay informed and stay in touch and like literally just follow people. and stay in touch and like literally just follow people if they have a show go buy a ticket because most of this stuff happens because we like when i when i was doing the casino circuit and these

are native casinos like these are owned by native casinos but they have their their loyalty is not to give their people uh show gigs their loyalty is to make money. So they're like, well, how many people can you bring in and all that stuff? And so it's, if you just go to a show, honestly, that's like doing the bare minimum or buy something, buy the

product and just support that way. That's the bare minimal way to support. But also my Venmo is open. What is it? It's Adrian Dash Chalapa. Okay, great.

Don't forget the Dash. I like to guilt people, so I do have four kids. Cliff, you know a lot of comedians. You could plug some. So do you have, you plug, you could plug some. Yeah, how do you break, Cliff, you know, how do you break out of that, you know,

that narrow comedy canon and find the cool shit that you know so much about? Well, there's a mini renaissance happening right now of indigenous artists, you know. I think there's like, it's a cliche to say that people stand on the shoulders of those who came before. But right now there's this it's a cliche to say that people stand on the shoulders of those who came before but right now there's this interesting confluence of uh indigenous artists who are also informed by popular culture so there's more than one native comic-con out there there's brilliant indigenous

visual artists hip-hop you know all these sort of confluences the cover of the book we had a little real estate problem is designed designed by Ryan Redcorn and his group, Buffalo Nickel Creative, who are visual designers who do gorgeous work. Their posters are amazing. I was really flattered that Ryan offered to do the cover for the book. And I was really happy to have an indigenous artist do the cover because when I got the book deal i had all this fear and like i was like are they gonna assign some white person to do the cover and it's gonna be like a stereotypical image on the cover of the book you know all these things and um am i rocking the boat too much if i demand the publisher hire you know native photographers and indigenous artists i want them to but i also don't want to like be you know uh a pain in the ass in the sense that, oh, we don't want to work with this guy's, you know. And even when I'm promoting this book, the funny thing is, and I got to give you guys credit, like I didn't have to say anything and nobody else had to say anything. But sometimes I'll do a show like this and they just book me. And it's two white hosts, well-meaning white liberals talking about representation and diversity is three fucking white people talking.

And I'm like, and I don't mean to be an asshole, but I'm like, well, every time they ask me the question, I'm like, can we are you going to book a native guest? Like, is this going to go live to tape or are we going to stop and you can book somebody else? And I have done that a bunch of times. You know, it's like reach out to the people that are in this book and talk to them first. Talk to me second. You know, people just don't think even well-meaning people. And that's, I think, indicative of American cultures. Like, you're just not aware.

So you want to be more aware. You want to support Native artists. There's a lot out there. You can follow Illuminatives, Buffalo Nickel Creative, Adrian, the 1491s. All the 1491s are great. We even talk about them. Yeah, you can consult the index of this book and find all kinds of different names. Also, watch these shows that are coming out.

Rutherford Falls is streaming on Peacock. It's a really funny show. I really enjoyed it because I was able to catch in jokes and references that before this book I may not have. The show operates on two different levels. If you're a non-native or if you're a native, it's going to be more enriching for indigenous people to watch this show because there are jokes there that everybody will get that a white audience might not. But there's enough there. I love that because I've seen the show and I love it. And now I love that there's a layer that I don't know that makes me want to go watch it again.

Or like hopefully maybe I don't know if someone's written a breakdown anywhere of like because I when there's an in joke, I want to understand it. I want to get inside the joke. Not no offense, but that's what that's my attitude. I mean, I mean, there's even insider stuff and rather for false. It's not even a joke, but just. Yeah. I mean, there's even insider stuff and rather false. It's not even a joke, but just when the lead, one of the lead characters is complimented by an elder. There's this really like sort of beautiful, sweet scene about how meaningful it is to her and how it's more meaningful than, you know, something else being praised by a celebrity or something like this for this character. this character and um i don't know it's just a really interesting show on multiple levels and revolutionary in the sense that it's got a mostly indigenous cast mostly indigenous writers room

and is um just a funny strong show you know anybody who likes 30 rock or parks and rec that style of comedy they're gonna love rutherford Falls. But it's introducing an important and valuable point of view that has been absent from popular culture for as long as we can think. So watch Rutherford Falls. There's a show coming out called Reservation Dogs on FX that Sterling Harjo and Taika Waititi have co-created. If you like Jojo Rabbit, if you like the 1491s, check out that show. It hasn't come out yet, but it looks like it's going to be great. Yeah, there's just a mini renaissance happening right now of indigenous art and creativity. And you're going to find good stuff no matter who you are, no matter what your tastes are.

If you put in the effort to seek it out, you're going to find some good things. Yeah, I mean, there's just a whole world of stuff out there that bust out of your box and go find it. I can't thank you both enough for coming on the show. So the book is called One More Time. We had a little real estate problem. You can pick up a copy at factuallypod.com slash books if you want to support the show in your local bookstore.

And Adrienne, plug your shit. Just where can people go find more about you and see your comedy? I'm on Twitter, Adrienne Comedy, Instagram, Instagram, Adrienne Chalapa. I just started a TikTok. I don't know what I'm doing.

The content is really poor. I also have a website. I have a website. It's chalapa.com and I'm doing. The content is really poor. I also have a website. I have a website. It's chalupa.com and I'm a screenwriter. I'm getting my master's in screenwriting. So I do a lot and I'm everywhere. I'm everywhere and nowhere.

Hmm. Think about that. So thank you so much. Okay. Thank you so much. Look for Elliot Adrian Chalupa everywhere and nowhere. Cliff Nesteroff, thank you so much. Thank youie adrian jellipa everywhere and nowhere cliff nesteroff thank you so much uh thank you guys thanks adam well thank you once again to cliff and adrian for coming on the show the book once again is called we had a little real estate problem the unheralded story of native americans and comedy and if you want to get a copy you can pick it up at factuallypod.com slash books.

That's factuallypod.com slash books. And when you do, you'll be supporting not just this show, but your local bookstore as well. That is it for us this week on Factually. I want to thank our producers, Chelsea Jacobson and Sam Roudman, Andrew Carson, our engineer, Andrew WK for our theme song, the fine folks at Falcon Northwest for building me the incredible custom gaming PC that I'm recording this very episode on. You can check them out for yourself at falconnorthwest.com. And hey, if you want to send me an email or comment about the show, you can send it to factually at adamconover.net. I do read every single email that you send. And you can find me online at adamconover.net or on social media at Adam Conover, wherever you get

your social media. Until next time, wherever you get your social media. Until next time, thank you so much for listening to Factually. We'll see you next week. That was a hate gun podcast.