Factually! with Adam Conover - The Warehouse Workers Who Beat Amazon with Derrick Palmer

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

The Amazon warehouse floor is infamous for poor working conditions, but the workers themselves know it best. Recently, the workers of warehouse JFK8 in Staten Island successfully organized to gain the basic working conditions many of us take for granted. In the face of one of the largest companies on the planet, and without the aid of a major union, they secured a huge victory. We’ve previously covered this while talking to the producers of the documentary Union, but today Adam sits with Amazon Labor Union cofounder Derrick Palmer to get a first hand account of the process. Derrick helped organize a union against incredible odds, remains a worker at JFK8, and has just written a how-to guide for workers looking to organize, called Handbook for the Revolution. Find Derrick's book at factuallypod.com/books--SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a Headgum podcast. Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yellow, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hax podcast. on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't know the truth. Hey there, everybody. Welcome to Factually.

I'm Adam Conover. Thank you again for joining me on the show. You know, things are rough in America right now. We say that a lot at the top of the show. We have creeping fascism. We have capitalism and billionaires taking control of our political system, trying to take all the money out of our pockets

to enrich themselves. Yada, yada, you know the deal, right? And we also all know. that the only way forward in the United States is for those of us with less power to organize and fight back against all of those systems that are oppressing us. But we also all know that it's harder and harder for us to do that, given the power of our tech overlords and everybody else they support, right? I mean, these people have billions of dollars and at this point seemingly the entire government on their side. but you know what I want to remind you over and over again on this show is that fighting back and winning is not impossible. It's just hard, okay?

And that should be good news, right? Hey, we don't have a zero percent chance. We got somewhere north of that. I'm not going to quantify it. But I will say that it has been done before. And that means we can do it again. Look, if you look at the last century, it's full of inspiring victories of people with less power, organizing and fighting back to support each other.

But one of the most inspiring labor organizing stories in recent years is the Amazon workers who organized a union at the warehouse JFK-8 in Staten Island. These are the first workers to ever organize an Amazon facility. They did it without the help of a major union. And they did it with one of the largest companies on the planet conspiring against them. And still, they won a huge victory. Now, we talked about that victory before on the show, a few months. months back, I interviewed the directors of an incredible movie about that campaign, which is called

Union. You can watch that movie on Criterion and PBS, I believe, still. It's a really incredible story. But one thing we haven't done yet is talk to any of the organizers of that campaign themselves. Well, on the show today, we have one of those organizers. I'm so thrilled to welcome him. He is going to tell us about not just how he and his coworkers took this Amazon warehouse from zero to unionized using nothing but the power of their solidarity to do it, he is also going to tell us how all of us can do the same thing in our own lives and our own workplaces. He's in fact written a handbook on how to do it called Handbook for the Revolution. Now, before we get to this inspiring conversation, I just want to remind you, if you want

to support the show directly, head to patreon.com slash Adam Con over five bucks a month. Gets you every episode of this podcast, add free. And if you'd like to come see me on the road, well, you may know I have just taped my most reason stand-up special in Chicago a few weeks ago, but I am performing this hour for a final time, little victory lap set of dates in Kansas City, Missouri, May 8th and 9th. If you live in the Kansas City area, I'd love to see you there. Head to Adam Conover.net for tickets. And now, please welcome Amazon Labor Union co-founder Derek Palmer. He's an organizer, a newly published author, and still a worker at JFK-8.

He has just written an incredible how-to guide for workers looking to organize called Handbook for the Revolution. Please welcome Derek Palmer. Hey, Derek, thank you so much for being on the show, man. Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. What you guys did at JFK-A and Amazon continues to be so inspiring. We've talked about it on the show a bunch of times. This is our first time talking to somebody who did the on-the-ground organizing.

you've now written this book that I think sort of takes that to the next level. But if you don't mind talking about that experience first, like, you know, how did you guys do that? How did you take, you know, this group of people at a really locked down ultra corporate, ultra tech surveillance place like that facility and, you know, get them organized? Oh, man. Well, at first I would say that it was a long time coming. It was brewing for a long time, I would say, because just working there in general was so hard. Just dealing with the long hours, you know, dealing with the amount of pressure it is to fulfill, you know, fulfill the needs for these customers. And, you know, it goes from the top to the bottom, obviously.

You know, the managers are pushing for the workers to go extremely hard. And, you know, it's kind of like they created a culture. the culture where you're not really allowed to speak on the conditions that happen inside of the workplace. You know, it was, it was kind of like unheard of to even speak about the conditions going on there. And, you know, the approach that we took was really the opposite. You know, we were very outspoken about, you know, the issues that were going on. And it really started from the pandemic. You know, the pandemic really highlighted

how the company really feels about the employee. Yeah. You know, we're just, we're literally just getting the numbers out. And, you know, during that time, New York, New York City was the epicenter of coronavirus. And we, as employees, were literally shipping the proper protections out to other people. But we didn't have them for ourselves.

We didn't have the mask and the gloves. And, you know, it was a problem. You know, people were getting sick. People were, you know, eventually passing away. You can't just open like a couple boxes and be like, look, we're shipping this stuff out. It costs pennies, the masks, right? Can we just have some of this? It's like you're starving and you're being asked to ship out food, you know?

Exactly. You know, and that's what made it so, it made it so like crazy. And, you know, the minute that we decide to, you know, stick up for that, you know, to stick up with other workers, you know, we became targets. You know, myself and Chris, the other founders, Gerald and Jordan, you know, we were all working at JFK at the time. And, you know, we knew that something had to change, you know, they weren't implementing social distancing, any of that. And people were getting sick and, you know, some people even lost their lives. And the result of that.

Wow. So, you know, we decided that, um, You know, after a process assistant, someone that was close to us in our department in the pick department actually got sick in court room. And, you know, obviously at the time, we didn't know what, you know, what it was really going on with the virus. We just knew that it was deadly. So there was a meeting between Chris Christian Smalls and the other managers, you know, they found out about the worker that tested positive. And they told him immediately, listen, you know, we know someone tested positive, but don't tell him. telling you. Don't telling the workers.

Wow. Everything's all good. So immediately after that meeting, Chris came to me and told me. He said, listen, someone tested positive and, you know, it's dangerous. And I'm like, okay, yeah, we got to, we got to leave. That was our first thing. Leave and figure out the rest later. And, you know, from there, we said, you know what, since Amazon wants to keep us a secret, you know, we're going to make it our business to go back to work and tell the workers what's happened because this can affect them. And that's exactly what we did. You know, we went back. We went and we sat in a break room literally the whole 10-hour shift from Wednesday all the way to

Saturday. That was our shift. And we told every worker that came in there that someone tested positive and was trying to keep the secret to stand the third. And, you know, each day we organize a group of workers to march down to the office and demand that they closed the building down. and sanitize it and also show some transparency with what's going on. Wow. And, of course, they didn't do that. And, you know, they tried to, they tried to make Chris seem, they made it seem like Chris was a problem.

They tried to make it seem like I was a problem. Sounds like you guys were a problem, but you were a good problem. Yeah. Yeah, good problem. You were a good problem for, you know, we did a lot. You know, we decided to actually have a walkout. And, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't the prettiest walkout, but we got a lot of attention for, we got a lot of attention for the media. Yeah.

New York Times, ABC, you name it, you know, they, they heard about it. And we, you know, we promoted it on social media. And, you know, we did it, you know, March 30th, 2020, you know, that was a big day for us. You know, we came to the building and, you know, we had our signs ready and we had workers coming out the building. It was like around a break time. So it was perfect timing. And it was also workers like in the, in the break rooms inside the building just watching.

It was like a movie. It was crazy. So, you know, that, that was the start of everything. March 30th, 2020. So a worker had gotten COVID. This is months and months before any vaccine. This is when it's people are getting it and dying, right?

It's like really terrifying. And so it was part of why you guys walked out was like, it's really unconscionable for Amazon to not even tell you and expect you to keep working under those conditions. What else was going on in the building at the time? You said it was a culture of not talking about the conditions. Just what else were you guys facing there? Yeah, I mean, the problem there mainly was the fact that

we couldn't even use the bathroom without being penalized for it. Yeah. Like if you took too many bathroom breaks throughout the day, a manager will come to you and say, hey, look, you know, your rates low. You might have a write-up right then and there. So it made people scared. And they were older people, you know, that still worked there. They actually decided to urinate on themselves just so they can keep their job. You know, that's the type of culture that they created.

And when workers like myself are talking, you know, the other workers in the building, you know, we're having these conversations and they're telling us how they feel. Yeah. But when it comes to the management, you know, they're stiff. You know, they keep their mouth shut. Yeah. And it's literally, it's unfortunate. So we felt like we had to do something.

I mean, let me just say as someone, I'm someone who has to pee a lot, right? I don't know what's up with me if I drink too much water or what's going on. I've just always been, I'm peeing twice as much as the average person. But something I accept as an adult is other adults don't get to comment about that. You know what I mean? Like, that's my business, how much I go to the bathroom. That's part of being, you don't have to ask permission because you're a grownup. And I think that's something that we all take for granted.

If I was in a situation where not only am I being chastised for that, I can't even speak up about the fact that I'm being chastised. It's so infantilizing and infuriating. And the culture of secrecy, I think, is a real problem, too, that like people are encouraged in workplaces, to not say anything, to not, you know, take any action. Don't discuss your salary. Don't discuss the pressures that are put on you. And it really takes like an unlearning.

You have to unlearn all these behaviors when you're starting to, you know, fight for your rights in the way than an adult can. And I'm just curious that I know that you guys, you know, when you first organized, you didn't have the support of a major union. you and you're basically starting from zero, and yet you sort of did everything right. You were able to build this sort of organizing spirit and this idea that we could fight back.

Despite that, so how did you, where did that come from? Like, how did you figure out how to, you know, spread this awareness and encourage other folks to stand up for themselves? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it was a total, a lot of different things. I think the best, the best learning, practice for us was actually going down to Alabama. Me and Chris drove from New Jersey to Alabama with the film crew that was actually interested

in, you know, they heard about the walkout and they were interested in, you know, what was going on in investment because they actually had, for those who don't know, they had the first actual election against Amazon. Yeah. I remember this. Yeah. And that was, and that was actually inspired by a walkout that we did. But nonetheless, you know, we decided to go out there and see what the campaign was about, you know.

You know, we were new to organizing. So we were like, hey, you know, this could be something we could possibly do in New York. But let's just see. So we got there, you know, we had like a lot of mixed emotions from workers themselves. You know, we couldn't even like they had, the police had the building locked off where we couldn't even go. We couldn't even go in a parking lot, you know, to attempt to talk to workers because. they had it blocked off. So we had to go across the street to a Circle K gas station and just hope that workers would go in and out. And sure enough, they did because they actually complained

that the snacks and stuff in the building at Amazon was too expensive. So they had to go to the Circle K. Not even that they weren't good. I thought you're going to say, oh, the snacks sucked. They were actually charging them more money in the Amazon facility for the snacks than at the circle K across the street. That's insane. Yes. So, of course, you know, we saw a lot of workers with their badges. And we immediately, you know, asked them, like, hey, how do you guys feel about, you know, the union? Like, you guys, are you guys going to vote? Some of them didn't know about the vote. That was a problem. Some knew about it and said, I don't know. And there was like a select few that said that they're voting yes. So, you know, we got workers point of view in real time from that actual building. So we were like, huh, I don't know. No, it's not, that doesn't make it seem like I'm sure that they're going to win here. And then, you know, there was the union that was out there, RWDSU, you know, we were supposed to actually meet with them in person, but, you know, that never happened. And they knew, they were aware that we were coming out there to support.

And they really didn't want anything to do with what we had going on. And we were just like, wait, you know, you do know that we're Amazon workers, you know, and, you know, And, you know, we're here to support. But they had a different direction. And that direction was getting as much politicians or outside support as possible for their rallies. And we felt that we felt as though that was a big mistake. You know, it did get a lot of attention. But, you know, there wasn't, there weren't a lot of workers there.

So we're seeing a lot of things that could possibly be improved. And, you know, we were just like, all right, let's let's figure this thing out. Let's go back up north. Let's try it on our own in New York City, being that New York is a union town. And, you know, we'll see what goes from there because we didn't really have high hopes. You know, although we were happy that things were moving down there, we thought that we would do it our own way. And, you know, long story short, they lost the vote, you know, pretty bad. Yeah.

Yeah, they lost pretty bad. And we were just like, you know what? We should just start right now. You know, let's get everything going. And we felt as though like that was like our homework assignment. Okay. We saw what they were doing there. There wasn't that many workers in tune.

So us workers that are active in the building, we can make a change and we can actually motivate workers to, you know, to join a union and get involved. So I think that that approach work, you know, that inside, outside approach. what we did, what we call it. That's what we did. You know, we were consistent. And, you know, we knew the workers, who knows the workers better than us? You know, we all worked together.

And, you know, we just went from there. That's amazing, man, because I remember that Bessemer vote because, you know, I'm a labor guy. I was following it. And it was big news. Oh, the workers in Bessemer, they're voting at, you know, Amazon, they're going to join the union. And when the vote went the wrong way, it was depressing. I was like, oh, you know, I thought maybe something was going to happen here.

But you guys actually took that failure you learned from it. And you said, okay, they showed you the wrong way to do it. And here's how we should do it instead. And the wrong way to do it. By the way, this is advice I give people all the time is whenever anybody asks me, oh, how do you make it in comedy? I'm like, well, go meet a lot of people who are doing comedy. Go do it yourself.

And then pay attention to who's doing it badly and don't do it. they're doing. It's like, it's better advice than you think is if you pay attention to people who are doing something wrong and then figure out from that what the right thing to do is, don't just look at your heroes. Look at the people who don't make it, you know, in all walks of life. But the thing that they were specifically doing wrong is, is a thing a lot of unions do wrong. And not every union has good strategy where they, they focus too much on getting the approval of people who have nothing to do with the business. They, you know, they get a senator to write a letter.

They get, you know, somebody to show up on the, you know, and show it up at a rally. But when you're talking about organizing workers, you're talking about getting those workers to use their individual power in the workplace and make the decision. And so those are the only people that matter at the end of the day is whether they're willing to vote or whether they're willing to walk off the job. Like, in our strike, you know, when they're. writers and actors went on strike. We had a lot of support from senators and whatever, but we knew that didn't matter. We were like, okay, that's nice to have. Thank you very much, sir, you know, for your support. But what matters is we are the ones who are out here and nobody else is. And like, we're the ones who are going to force them to come back to the table.

You know, starting something new isn't always just hard. It can be terrifying. So much work goes into this thing that you're not entirely sure it will work out. And it can be hard to make that leap of faith. I mean, trust me, I know. Going into the comedy business isn't exactly what I'd call a sound financial decision. You know, when I started doing stand-up comedy or when I started this podcast, I thought, what if no one listens? What if I make a fool of myself? I want people laughing with me, not at me. But, you know, after years of doing this, I now know that I was right in believing in myself and launching my comedy career despite all of these fears and hesitations. But you know what also helps when you're taking that big step?

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And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world? It is why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. It also helps boost conversions, meaning less carts going abandoned and more sales for you. So look, it's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash factually. Go to Shopify.com slash factually. That's Shopify.com slash factually. So what you guys did was chronicled, though, in the movie union, an incredible documentary.

We featured the filmmakers on this show. People can go watch it on Criterion or I think PBS. And the story is incredible. But, like, what was your approach having those one-on-one conversations with those other workers? Well, it was really just, instead of, like, kind of forcing the conversation, you know, we kind of just made our presence known on the outside first. That was the first thing. You know, we had our ALU shirts. You know, we were passing out food, you know, passing out literature as well.

but we really wanted to like get to know them on a personal level you know just ask them how they're doing how's they going you know what's going on what department they're in and then we kind of slowly went from there because we know that every amazon work is going to have a story you know everyone has a story everyone has a story how they gotten written up or how they they they felt untreated not treated well by by management and you know we kind of just we slow walked everything It was a one-year campaign. So after, you know, based on workers' feedback, it's kind of like how we went about it. Like, okay, you got written up for this, but, you know, having a union, that can help you out.

You know, you can get getting more vacation time, getting more personal time, not worrying about your job being at risk by making a few mistakes here and there. Yeah. You know, all that is protected by unions. And it was really them seeing us in the building, too, after we had those conversations outside. Because Amazon, you know, they had this approach that, oh, AOLU was an outside organization. You know, they have, they can't help you. There's nothing that they could do. But, you know, it backfired on them when we're working inside the building with these coworkers.

Right. So once we started to organize the break rooms inside, that's when we really started. started to gain power. And that's when workers started to gain trust in us. Because now what Amazon is telling them isn't resonating with them because we're right here next to them.

We're right here next to them while Amazon's saying they're an outside company. So it just wasn't going to play well for them at all. Yeah. I mean, some unions do come in and they sort of operate more like a third party, like an outside group. It is,

but you guys did not do that. You, I mean, you literally were just Amazon workers who were trying to start your own union. There was no outside group at all. It was just you guys the best way to prove that. So long story short, you win that election. You organize those workers.

You win an election. You have a union. This is now a number of years ago. My understanding is you guys are still finding to get a contract, right? Yes. But tell me how things have changed in the years since, since you organized. Because you still work at JFK 8 today.

Oh, yeah. I'll be there on Wednesday. Yeah, I'm still there. But, I mean, things have definitely changed. Amazon now is, I think their approach is different. They're more so of, they're more so trying to, like, cater to workers. They're trying to give them snacks and stuff. They're trying to have, like, these little carnivals inside the building.

They're giving out food now, you know, at the industry. shift and beginning the shift. So they're copying our approach, you know, making it seem as though like they're creating their own culture, duplicating our culture that we created, working to worker. So they've been doing that for a while. Also, you know, there was a law in New York City or the Warehouse Worker Protection Act, which requires managers to actually disclose the actual numbers to the workers. Like they can't just say, okay, you're written up because your performance is low. They have to compare the numbers from that worker who got that feedback versus all the other

workers in that department. So that's a law that was passed. And also Amazon is now what they're doing is they're trying to fire a lot of workers. They're trying to fire a lot of workers who supported the union in the past. and also the targeting workers who've been with the company for more than three years. Because after three years, a fun fact for people who don't know, you don't make any more with Amazon. You don't get any more raises after three years at that company. So you can be there, you can be there 10 years like myself and still make the same amount as someone that's been there for three years.

Wow. So, yeah, they want to pretty much just wipe out all the, the blue badges, what we call them, the veterans, the people that's been there for years, years to come. And is having a union helping you fight back against that, or at least, you know, giving you some amount of solidarity while it's happening? Yeah, yeah, it is. It's definitely, it's working. But of course, you know, Amazon is playing the long game. What they're doing now is just dragging this whole union process in court. You know, they're appealing our certification in court, and they've been appealing it since April 1st of 2022.

Wow. Yeah, that's what they've been doing. And now what that does is that creates doubt with the workers. Now the workers are like, okay, we won. Why don't we have a contract yet? You know, so it's like you have to continue organizing, like, how we're. we did prior to the victory. You have to keep that same consistency.

And it's even harder now because we have a win. And Amazon is making the workers seem as though that, yeah, they won that, but there's no contract yet. So now that discourages workers and now that puts more pressure on the organizers on the inside to gather them, get them to ultimately do a walkout because that's what the goal is, do an actual walkout. And you're working on that now. And yeah, how are you fighting back against their attempts to bust your union that way?

Well, it's really representing those workers when they get disciplined. I have a good connection with workers on the night shift and day shift and all different departments. I'm pretty well known inside the building. That's why I haven't quit yet. So I was really advocating for them when they get called down to A-Ship. charge for disciplinary action. You know, I'm right there bottom side as their union rep.

But the problem is that, you know, by law, we don't have, no, we can't actually represent the workers yet. Even though we are union because we don't have the contract yet. So, you know, it's a little discouraging, but they have been organized like myself

and others as well that have advocated for workers' behalf. And that's what keeps the ball rolling. Organizing in the break rooms and organizing when outside at no cross the street at the famous, at the infamous bus stop. You know, all those things, you know, all that, that combination right there is what's keeping the union to float right. Yeah. Well, and there's no replacement for that, you know, like it's a union and is always person to person. And I tell people that about the Writers Guild.

We've been, you know, around for over 90 years. we've had a contract almost as long, but the union only runs because we are constantly organizing, constantly talking person to person. As a board member, my job is to talk to as many members as possible. Say, what are your problems? You know, how can we help? So, and I just want to say,

I hope you guys are around 90 years from now. I also hope we're both still alive. And then medical advances have been made. But, you know, I hope you guys are around then. It can take years sometimes. to win that first contract. But when you do, it's going to benefit people coming after you for decades. And, you know, you guys have still done something really remarkable there.

And so what brought you to writing this book, Handbook for the Revolution? And how can you sort of generalize your experience to something that, you know, other people can do in their own workplaces? Yeah. I mean, I think just the fact that, you know, we were able to. to unionize Amazon's second largest employer in the world. Yeah. That speaks volumes, you know.

A lot of people in the labor movement that we met were inspired. People that, you know, that's been around way longer than us. And they said, you know, what you guys did was special there. So I think just the feedback from them for other union members, the feedback from workers, the feedback from workers. because they were asking how are we able to do it? You know, so I think that it's really important that was something as remarkable as what we did that has to be documented in some way, you know, whether it's a film, like how we did with Union. And also in books, because books is, that's what holds all the power. All the, all the information in the world is in books.

And, you know, I really wanted to create something special. I really want people to understand what it took behind the scenes. You know, it wasn't easy. Nothing about this was easy. And, you know, there's a method to this. There's a method to how we want. It wasn't luck. You know, we, you know, we had, we built the inside, outside approach.

You know, we had the culture downpacked because we matched the culture of the workers in the building. You know, we were consistent. and we were fearless. That combination there alone is very powerful. And I wanted to put that, put those in words. And hopefully a lot of people resonate with that. And whatever they're struggling with, you know, whether it's building a union or creating a business, whatever.

You know, whatever you're struggling with, you can read this and you can be inspired to do whatever you want. And I want all organizers that are currently in the labor movement. to read it, to resonate with it. And also, I want to create more organizers. Like, I want more people to get involved and organize the workplace. And if you can organize Amazon, you can unionize any company. And that is what made your victory so symbolically important.

Not just symbolically important, literally important, because it demonstrated that most anti-union company, biggest employer, you guys are under the most tough conditions. And yet you proved that it can be done. So, you know, in your, in the advice that you give, you want there to be more organizers, what's the first step? What should people do? Well, it's really just doing the research.

You know, you have to do the research on the labor laws, the labor laws in your state because they're not the same for each state. They're different. You know, you got to build a presence online. You know, we use social media very well. Getting that presence down pat. Telling the media what's going to happen. You know, being outspoken.

Getting a labor lawyer. And getting the feedback from your workers, too. You know, on, you know, what do you feel like we need a union? You know, we did all of those things. And, of course, you have to have some type of money. So we use GoFundMe. That was our method of getting money. and just promoting the gold fund me and, you know, merch.

You know, you need some merch. You need some shirts. You know, you need, needs their authorization cards. That's important. And you need to be consistent. You know, those are the key factors, really. They can just go from there. Well, let's drill into those conversations that you have with the other workers.

Because a lot of the stuff that you listed, those are things that, anybody can get you, anybody can hook you up with the labor movement. You know, labor lawyer, go fund me, that kind of thing, right? That stuff is helpful. And some of it you have to have, right? But it's not the main thing you have to have, which is you have to have that group of workers that is organized and motivated and is, you know, believes that the fight for the union is going to give them something that they want.

And you said, you didn't, you're not going around telling them, hey, we need a union. you're asking them, do you think we need a union? And I guess I want to talk about how that conversation goes because what do you do when they say, I don't know if we need a union? I'm a little worried about it. Oh, the company says they don't like it. Stop talking to me, right?

And you believe you understand they do need a union, but you have to follow what the workers want. How do you handle that kind of conversation? Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, you can't, you know, the wrong reaction would be defensive. You can't be defensive, even if someone tries to curse you out, you know, because ultimately,

a lot of them are really just scared to even go about it because of the culture. We hear the word union, think, oh, my God, like, I can lose my job. You know, so some of them are scared about it. But you really just ask them what issues they're having inside the worker.

That's what it is. Are this management targeting you, you know, are they, you know, are your, are your rates bad? You know, things like that. You know, you just start and start off by building those conversations and asking those questions. There's going to be some workers that say no. There's going to be a lot of them that say, yeah. Or, you know, that's, that's really the approach. And it's like we know, like I know you need to do you in there.

But it's just getting that, you get that feedback from those workers. Yeah, and understanding what their problem is, if they're saying to you, hey, I'm not getting paid enough, or they're saying, hey, I had to piss myself last week because, sorry, I shouldn't have laughed. I mean, it's a little funny, but it's serious as well. We laugh at serious things on this show. I mean, knowing what their actual problems are is so important. And I like what you said about you can't get defensive about it. Because in my own union work, there have been so many times where another union member, another worker will come to me and they'll have a little heat or they'll have a little fear. You know, they'll either be like, hey, I don't know about this thing that we're doing.

And they're like, oh, I don't know about this thing that we're doing it. You think it's going to be okay. And when someone comes at me with heat, you know, my first impulse is always you want to argue back with them or you want to retreat or you know you want to treat it like like there's conflict but if instead you just go hey man that's totally valid for you to react that way let me tell you how i think about it right absolutely and then what and how do you feel about it and just having a conversation nine times out of 10 they leave at least thinking a little bit differently because you were just communicating with them as a person you weren't trying to get them to do anything you know like every time we have a vote in

the writers gold and someone says i don't know how i'm going to vote yet and i really think they should vote yes, you know, like, like I'm voting yes. I think it's important for people to vote yes. We always say, hey, you should vote however you want. That's the first thing that we say. We don't say you should vote however you want. Here's why I'm voting yes. You know, what do you think? Like that's that sort of basic respect to the other person's experience is really important, right? Yeah, I agree with that. And that's actually an approach that Amazon took in the building. You know, they had no signs. They had to vote no signs all around, all around the building.

Huge, like huge signs all over the building next to the bathrooms. They were sending text messages out. And in the captive audience meetings, they were telling people to vote no. So ultimately that backfired on them. Yeah, because if you're telling somebody what to do, their first reaction is often, why are they telling me to do this? I want to do what I want to do. Exactly.

And then whatever, it might make them feel stronger about whatever their own conclusion was. You know, like, that's accurate. You know, like, you got to give people a chance to think for themselves, too. You know, you can just lay the information out on how you feel.

If they resonate with it, they resonate. If not, let it go. Because you're going to see them again. Like, I've talked to workers who said that they were going to vote no. And gotten written up, came back the next day or next few days and signed the authorization card right there on the spot.

Wow. So you never know what's going to happen. So you got to just have that open-minded. You got to be understanding to their feelings. That's important. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I thought was really beautiful about the film Union is that there is also an example in that film about someone who's opinion flips the other way, right? who starts out really tight with you guys

and like supporting the union. And then by the end of the movie, it's like, I'm not so sure about it anymore, right? Yeah. And you have to, even if you disagree with that ideologically or strategically, you have to respect that, right?

And I thought the film respected that person really well. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was like seeing that and while it was happening, it was like, wow, like, you know, it hurt, I'm not going to lie, it did. But, you know, people have their opinions and, you know,

Things happen. But ultimately we won. And I feel like after that whole situation happened, I think she kind of flipped back to the other side and said that. Yeah, I saw a few posts on the, there's a VOA board inside the building of voice of associates. And she was like advocating for workers. So she went right back to the side of the union, which is the right side. That's wonderful. Well, it's the right side. But for each person, they get to decide what the right side is for them. And, you know, one of the things that I've learned in union work is it'll break your heart sometimes because it's messy because people are messy and people break your heart sometimes, you know? Yeah.

And, you know, the company is able to make everything really regimented and right angles and follow the rules and everything's going to be predictable. When you're doing union work, you're dealing with people and people are messy and unpredictable. And I know that you guys, you know, your union in the time since you won the election, you've had some contested elections, right, for who's going to run your union and that kind of thing. I've seen some reporting. I don't know about a firsthand. But, you know, how's that experience been for you since? And how do you try to, you know, manage that piece of it, knowing that, hey, sometimes things can get contentious,

but we got to stick together at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah, that was definitely, you know, what, you know, what you saw in the film. you know, that was, that was real. And that's something that I wanted to highlight in the book, you know, about, you know, kind of like a counter-it-acts from within. That's part of the chapter. And it talks about people in your union, you know, fighting for power and making that, you know, the most important part or what it seems is, though, the important part. Like we're going to fight to become president or vice president or be on the executive board.

But, you know, it's important that, you know, you should keep your focus on the ultimate prize is getting that contract, you know, which we still don't have yet. So that, you know, I wanted to touch on that because I've talked to other people in other unions and they've said the same thing. That's always been a problem. The people, you know, very thirsty for power. and, you know, to me, it doesn't really matter about who's really in charge. You know, it's about, you know, the workers. Yeah. I can care less about a title.

You know, I was a vice president. And it's really about what you do inside the building. That's the most important. Yeah. Yeah. But in a movement, I mean, I agree with you. I don't care about titles or power. But when you're a leader, right, and you're trying to lead other people

responsibly, you have to accept you, you have all types of people in your group, you know, and you can't sit there and go, oh my God, we had one asshole or three assholes and they fucked it up. You know, we had someone who's behaving selfishly and they fucked. And if only it hadn't been for them. Because what I always tell people is, hey, if you get 20 people together of any, in any walk of life, for any reason, you're going to have a couple assholes in the group, right? Because assholes are part of human society. And so what you actually need is a strategy to deal with that person who's making it hard for you, right? You need to be able to make sure that you don't get derailed, that your movement,

that your project doesn't get derailed. So I'm really glad that you wrote about that. What sort of strategy do you employ it to deal with folks who are maybe, you know, acting across purposes or maybe for the wrong reasons? Well, it's really, you know, really kind of just want to sit them down and just say, listen, like, you know, we, we understand, you know, because it would be like a small. That, you know, that feel this way. And you got to sit them down and say, listen, hey, you know, we got to really focus on, on the prize here. Like, this, the fight for leadership, that can, that can always happen. But let's get the contract fix, you know, and that's, that's something that, I can, I can honestly say that we didn't do well with, you know, me being in, in. in that position against the people that were one in that position. I could say that that wasn't something that we thought was going to be a concern until things

kind of shifted. And, you know, I wanted to put that in the book because I don't want someone else to go through that and not know what to do. And, you know, the proper thing to do is really just get them back on the same track. That's the only thing you can do. You've got to let them know. Like, you don't have, we don't have what we need yet. And the workers are suffering while we're sitting here fighting for something that's meaningless.

Yeah. It's such a, like, thing that you have to do over and over again in this work is just try to get everybody back on the same page and point in the same direction and say, hey, we might disagree about this or that. Or we might not get along or we might not like each other. Or we might have just had a horrible fight like yesterday. But tomorrow we have to show up and show up for each other and do it anyway, right? And accept that people can change. And the person who's working against you yesterday might be working on your side today, right? Yeah.

And that's definitely a work in progress now. Once everyone's on the same page, like how we were at one point, the opportunities are endless. And we'll get there. Trust. Yeah. What are the other challenges that you face doing this work that you wrote about? The challenges is really just dealing with people who, you know, dealing with the workers who are just like discouraged.

Yeah. You know, it's, you know, it hurts because, you know, we at one point, they were so high. They were so, like, focused on the union and, you know, we're going to, things are going to change. And then as time goes on, you know, they're, their opinions, they kind of shift a little bit. You start the question if the union is even legitimate. But, you know, that's one of the, those are the main things.

That's the main thing for me because I'm still in the building. You know, I'm one of the original founders of the union that's still working. So I'm like, I keep hearing it, you know, day in and day out. But again, you know, keep advocating for them like I've been doing, you know, and still having a relationship with the current leadership. And, you know, just going from there, really. It's just, it is a little discouraging. I'm not going to lie, but, you know, it doesn't change.

You just got to remind yourself that we're almost there. And what makes, what reminds me that we're almost there is the fact that now Amazon has to actually negotiate with the union now and there's no more, no more appeals. they can't they can't just keep appealing so yeah we have we have a bargaining order so and that that's been official since April 1st of 26 and Amazon has to come at a table and negotiate a country they they can no longer stall or etc and you you were able to force you're able to get some part of the I assume the federal government to force them to do so yes the National Labor Relations Board actually issued a bargain order to Amazon.

So that's official now. And that's Donald Trump's National Labor Relations Board, which has not been doing a lot in the last couple years. So that's very impressive that you guys were able to get that order. And so I'm sure their lawyers will still fight it, but they now will have to come in and bargain a contract with you guys. Absolutely. Wow.

That's going to be a really big moment. What do you think that, you know, folks in your union are going to be looking for in a contract? I know, you know, you don't need to turn over the cards in your hand to me. But, you know, I'm just, what are the sort of things that you think will be important to the people in the building? Oh, well, number one, sick time. You know, that's important. You know, we actually do have sick time in New York State. But I'm talking about, you know, of course, throughout the company, they don't have the actual sick time.

Um, more personal time. They feel like they need more personal time. Um, more vacation time, actual job security, a pension, actual pension over a 401k. You have 401k option. Um,

you know, just better, better leave options and seniority too. That's important. Um, a lot of people, my workers like myself have been there for so many years, you know,

to get overlooked, and it's time to move up and within the company. So the seniority would help a lot of the entry-level workers like myself get a higher position, things like that. Yeah. Those sound like pretty basic things that most workers would want in their workplace. Yeah. We literally just been asking for basic demands since this whole campaign started.

And it turned into like we're trying to like destroy the building. That's not what we're doing. Well, it's funny because you're describing things that workers have. through a lot of the 20th century and the only reason we had them was because workers like yourself, you know, a hundred years ago fought for them. And now we find ourselves in the position of having to do it again. Absolutely. Your book is called Handbook for the Revolution. What about this do you think is revolutionary? Well, you know, we're fighting against the system. This is, you know, when you're working in Amazon, it does feel like slavery. It does feel like modern day slavery. So we're fight, we're basically

fighting against that. And, you know, us, you know, getting a contract at JFK8 is only going to create a tidal wave throughout the United States, you know, and other countries as well, but mainly in the United States because, you know, we were actually able to win against Amazon and get workers what they demanded for so long. And now, of course, other Amazon buildings, they're going to follow suit. They're going to want to, you know, they're going to walk out. They're going to want to contract. And it's going to spread like wildfire, AOU, which is, which is now AALU IBT. We're affiliated with the international brotherhood of Teamsters as well. You know, that's going to create a tidal wave.

And the Teamsters have been, they've been organizing the drivers. So now the drivers are going to go from third party to actually employed by the company. Because the company has been, you know, they've been getting away with treating them like third party workers. So now you have the drivers who are unionized and you have the warehouse workers who are unionized. Now, if the whole country gets unionized under Amazon, I mean, all the Amazon workers get unionized, now other companies are going to follow suit. Yeah. And it's not going to stop. And then now we have all these workers who are now getting this respect, respect that they deserve.

and, you know, that's the revolution that I'm referring to since. That is a beautiful vision. And it really does start with you guys if you're able to do it because, I mean, organizing a union is one thing. But when you're able to get the contract that improves your wages and working conditions, and then it's set down in black and white in legal language and they cannot take it away from you. And they have to negotiate with you another couple years in the future. future. That's how you create that durable victory, that durable improvement. And that's what

inspires other people to do it. They go, oh, wait, these guys organized and they got sick leave and they got vacate or whatever else you wanted. That's how you like sort of show up as a beacon for other people. And I also think there's something really smart about this because it's, it's turning Amazon's, you know, great power against it a little bit because, you know, they're the biggest one of the biggest retailers in America, right, they control so much of the American economy at this point. Well, why shouldn't a corporation that large

have to deal with its workers fairly? You know, like Amazon practically has got more delivery drivers than the post office at this point. Post office workers have a union contract. You know, like we know that's a good job. Why shouldn't being an Amazon delivery driver entitle you to,

you know, some perks, right? If you work for the biggest company on earth, I'm fudging the numbers, by the way. I don't know exactly know how many delivery drivers they have. But I see as many Amazon fans as I do mail trucks in my neighborhood. I'll tell you that. Yeah. Like what.

So when you become infrastructure for the country like that, then you need to provide for the workers that do the work and you become a target for this kind of organizing. But people say, why the hell not? Yeah, exactly. And now, you know, like these, the guys that are making the decisions that reflect, you know, that reflect the Amazon workers in the building. You know, now it's like, okay, you guys, they're making it seem like they're like above, you know, above the workers.

Like, that's, that's their approach because we never get to see them. You know, now it's like, okay, the workers are gaining power now. Now, you know, we want to see that at the table. Not necessarily to, you know, the business, but we have control over how we're operating while we're in, while we're at, while we're at a workplace. You know, we're not just doing everything you're telling us to do. Now we have some basic rights that we have and we demanded that. And we won that.

So now the power is shifted. And that's what they really afraid of. It's not really about giving us the money because they have the money to give it. It's not a problem. It's just that workers gain that power. Now other workers that are looking at Amazon like the big bad wealth, they're going to be like, wait, hold up. Now they have the work.

Amazon workers have a say-so now after so long of, you know, how, you know, how Amazon has looked as a company. They've looked at so, so powerful. And now it's like, you know, things are changing. And they're going to be influenced. Like, you know what, we can do it too. You know, we have power too. I, you know, I feel like I'm worth something.

And that's what the, that's what they're really scared. That's amazing. And that is what makes it revolutionary. Because the thing that I always say about the. the labor movement. People listen to the show. I've heard me say it before. You know, we're told in America that your only source of power is you vote, you donate, you decide what to buy at the supermarket or from Amazon, and that's it. You've, you know, you got your dollars and you got your vote. And then apart from that, take a nap because other people are going to decide how the

world works. And what they don't want you to realize is that you as a worker have power because there's somebody who needs your labor, right? There's somebody who's got money. They need you to do something. And what is power? Power is your ability to force someone else to do what you want or your ability to fuck up their day so that they have to do what you want. And they don't get to say anything about it. They don't get to, you know, make you not do it. Like you, power means you can do it whether or not they like it. And that is the thing that they don't want to give up. That is the thing, the boss will pay you more, but the boss doesn't want to have to think about your needs. The boss doesn't want to have to, oh, fuck, you're forcing me to sit down and have a meeting.

But if the workers, he still needs your labor. So if the workers can consolidate your power into a union, then you can force them to give you a seat at the table. And that's the revolutionary thing, right? Is like, it's not who gets the money. Wealth and equality is important. It's not who gets the money. It's who calls the shots about how our country operates. And when we have average workers like yourself getting real power over capitalism,

that is a form of democracy that is deeper than voting. And that is what is revolutionary, I think. I assume you agree with some of this. I'm sorry to get on my soapbox while I'm interviewing you, but it's just you bring it out of me, man. Yeah, that's what I want. and bring it out of people, let them know that you can do it too. That's what that's all I want.

Yeah. So what does it feel like for you to gain this kind of power in your, in your workplace? I mean, just for you as a personal journey, right, going from somebody who just showed up to your job every day in the fact, in the warehouse, right, to being a leader. What does that feel like? Well, it really feels good, you know,

just getting feedback from the people around me and my coworkers, you know, they're always telling me, you're always motivating me and saying, you know, like, you're doing a great thing, you know, and don't never forget that. And, you know, sometimes you just need to hear something, something basic like that, but it goes a long way, you know, especially as an organizer, you know, there's always those dry moments where, like, you know, things just aren't working out. or, you know, people are just getting discouraged. So that helps out a lot. And, you know, I always want to make sure that, you know,

as long as I'm still employed in Amazon, that I'm keeping them informed of what changes is going on. You know, what laws did the union create? You know, what changes in the workplace are a result of the union? And, you know, that's why I always make sure that I'm motivated. them in person and online. I add everyone that I know in my department online so they can see whatever I post about the union related.

And it feels good that people are accepting to that, you know, because what really motivates me is the fact that, you know, there's people who aren't in support of union or felt like they're not, they're not going to be anything in life. So they just want to go to work and go home. And there was a point in my, there was a point in time where I felt similar to that. I just wanted to go to work and go home.

So, you know, seeing them is like watching my old self. You know what I'm saying? So I kind of understand why they're feeling like that. But it's like gradually getting them, pulling them to the other side to, to motivate them and say, listen, you know, you're more than, you're more than a number. You know, I know, Amazon may look at you like a number, but you're more than that, you know. And that's the best thing, you know, when people start to get it. Because a lot of people don't get it. And once they do, it's like, you're unstop.

And I'm just grateful that I got an opportunity to, you know, to advocate for workers. And I want people to continue to be motivated by what I'm doing, whether it's in Amazon or outside. Is being able to see that in people, and that's a beautiful thing to witness. Is that part of what keeps you? there because, I mean, after you guys won this huge victory, you're about to be a published author, right? You could probably go be doing a lot of things in life. Yeah. And yet, you're, you're working at the Amazon warehouse. Like, is that part of what keeps you in that work? Yeah. I mean, you know, like other people, you know, like Chris, for example, right? You know,

he's not working in the building. And there's a lot of propaganda, you know, about him. And it's like a lot of this stuff is not true. You know, so I kind of felt like, okay, I need to kind of stay in the building to make sure that, you know, the union doesn't have a bad name. Because if I just leave and we didn't even fulfill the goal yet, now I'm one of the last pieces to the puzzle, you know, that put every, you know, that put this, put this thing together. And they're going to look at me like an outside.

Like, oh, he just, he got some money and he left. But no, like, the most important thing is that contract. So once I leave the building, I don't have access to those workers no more. Even though I have them on social media, it's not the same thing as in person. You know, I get to still relate. I still relate to them and their pain and what they're going through. So, you know, it's important that I stay until at least we get the contract. And, you know, after that, I'll decide what I don't want to do.

But, you know, of course, I'm not going to be packing. boxes you know as long as long as I'm involved in this I'm going to I'm going to stay there and so at least we get that contract that's it that's incredible man

and that sense of a community I'm sure is really important too that's part of what keeps me you know I've been in union work for a little while and it's been exciting for part of it but I find I can't leave you know because I just I love being a part of my community and and you know having other

people, you know, being able to care about other people and having other people care about me is, uh, once you're sort of alive to that part of life, it, it can be revolutionary for you personally, right? Yeah. And now, you know, that, that's how I know your heart's in the right place, you know, you, you know, once you get involved in unions, it's just, it's just something, uh, something different about it, you know, it's just like, yeah, it's just motivating. I understand. I can, I can see it on you, man. Um, well, I, I can't thank you. you enough for being here. It's been inspiring to talk to you. And I hope it's, uh, the conversation has inspired some other people to organize their workplaces because we want to see that wave

that you're talking about across the country. The name of the book, again, handbook for the revolution. It's out on May 5th. Um, you can get a copy or pre-order if you're hearing this before May 5th. You can pre-order it at our special bookshop, factuallypod.com slash books, uh, or go wherever you get your books. You know, you can, get people pre-order on Amazon, Derek? Yeah, they can. Yeah, I did my audio as well. Uh-huh.

Do you think there's a chance that you, I should have opened by asking this. Do you think there's a chance you're going to ship a copy of your own book to somebody? Are you going to take a, you're going to put a copy of your own book in a box, a mail to somebody's house? Yep.

I'm nine times out of ten, I'm sure that that's going to happen. I mean, you might be the only author on Earth. who will have that experience. Well, maybe someone else we don't know about, but that's a very rare thing, I think, to be inside the Amazon building and to ship a copy of your own book.

I think it's a beautiful story, and it's a beautiful philosophy that you have and can't thank you enough. Where else can people find you on the internet, if anywhere? On Instagram, true double underscore to self. Also on X, Derek Palmer underscore. TikTok, Derek Palmer underscore as well. Derek, thank you so much for being on the show, man.

Thank you, man. It was a pleasure. Well, thank you once again to Derek for coming on the show. I hope you got as much out of that conversation as I did. Of course, if you want to support the show and all the conversations we bring you every single week, head to patreon.com slash Adam Con. Over five bucks a month gets you every episode of this show ad free for 15 bucks a month. I will read your name in the credits.

At least I normally will. Today, I can't because I have bricked my. phone, you know, I've blocked myself from using a bunch of the apps and I cannot access the Patreon app to see how I can see your names. So I want to thank, I want to thank all of you if you donate at the $15 a month level or higher. You know who you are. Just think about yourself in your mind and know that I'm beeping you. Thank you wishes. Of course, you want to come see me do stand-up comedy. May 8th and 9th, Kansas City, Missouri, Adamconover.net for tickets. I'd love to see out there. I want to thank my producer, Sam Raman and Tony Wilson,

everybody here at HeadGum for making the show possible. Thank you so much for listening. And I'm going to see you next time on Factually. That was a HeadGum podcast. Hi, I am Mandy Moore. Sterling K. Brown. And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast, That Was Us, now on HeadGum.

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