Factually! with Adam Conover - Vivian Wilson Bullies Adam Conover for 74 Minutes

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

One of Elon Musk’s most insightful critics is his own daughter. Vivian Wilson came into the limelight last year after her father deadnamed her in an interview with Jordan Peterson, and she responded by systematically dismantling Musk in a now infamous post. Having publicly rejected her father, Wilson suddenly found herself as an icon of trans visibility in America—something she had never expected. This week, Adam invites Vivian to a chaotic conversation about fame, identity, dodgeball, and RuPaul’s Drag Race. Most importantly, Vivian also puts Adam in her crosshairs and gives him masterclass in bullying. --SUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAbout Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum» Advertise on Factually! via Gumball.fmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. I don't know the truth. I don't know the way. I don't know what to think. I don't know what to say. Yeah, but that's all right. That's okay. I don't know anything.

Hey there, welcome to factually. I'm Adam Conover. Thank you for joining me on the show. You know, at the risk of speaking on behalf of other people, it is a pretty frightening time to be trans in America right now. You can see the backslide in trans rights everywhere from the Supreme Court's Scermedy decision, which opens the door to making health care for trans kids illegal in more and more states, to the Trump administration, which after running a wildly transphobic campaign

and winning on the back of that campaign, has put the full weight of the federal government towards making life harder for trans Americans. So, you know, at the time in this country where reasonably, you know, trans people might want to avoid the limelight, right? Go play video games, keep your head down and wait for things to chill out. But, you know, so many trans people in this country aren't doing that. They're continuing to live as themselves openly and authentically. And one of the most striking examples is Vivian Wilson. If you haven't heard of Vivian, she is the daughter of Elon Musk.

And she came into the limelight last year after her father deadnamed her in a video with Jordan Peterson and, seemed to imply that his child had literally died as a result of her transition. Vivian's response, though, was, and I quote, I look pretty good for a dead bitch. And then she proceeded to dismantle her father online in extremely entertaining fashion. And since then, she's been very public doing interviews, starting a modeling career, and just being a fun and funny person on podcasts just like this one. I have wanted to interview Vivian for a while.

and we have her on the show this week. This is a different conversation that I normally have on this show because she's not an expert at any particular subject matter other than what it is like to be her on planet Earth right now in this moment

which honestly is plenty. It was so much fun to talk to her. She bullied the hell out of me. I know you're going to love this conversation as much as I did. Before we get into it though, I want to remind you that if you want to support the show, you can do so on Patreon.

Head to patreon.com slash Adam Con. Over five bucks a month Gets you every episode of the show, ad-free. We have an online community. We'd love to have you as part of as well. And to remind you, I am back on the road this fall. The big divorce energy tour continues in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Tosa, Oklahoma, Brea, California, Tacoma, Washington, Spokane, Washington, Des Moines, Iowa, Atlanta, Georgia, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, D.C. Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, California.

We're always adding new cities as well. Head to Adamconover.com for all those tickets and tour dates. And now, please welcome on the show this week, Vivian Wilson. The dog is so sweet. I was there with the dog as a puppy once. Aw. Really. Wow, you're old.

Like, okay. Let's get going. Vivian, thank you so much for being on the show. Hi. Why are you laughing? I just said hi. Because no one never said hi on the show like that before. What am I supposed to say?

Such a drawn-out hype. God damn. Fuck my life, I guess. You are, I have so many people who are excited for you to come on the show. Uh-huh. My friend Sammy is like, we're filming. We're filming. We're rolling.

We're on now. We're on. The show's begun. The show has begun. Welcome, Vivian Wilson. To factually, you're on. Thank you. You're, uh, a lot of, when I told people you were coming on the show, they were like,

oh my gosh, she's amazing. I'm so excited to have gone. That's very sweet. What do you, what do you think it is that people have responded? to so quickly about you in the public you haven't been in the public eye for like more than a year or so right no not even a year it's gonna be a year in like a few weeks wow yeah and so what what is it that that that i don't fucking know that's a difficult question but like i was not like a true question but like i was not like a true question but it's always like a difficult question to answer it's like

what do you like what do you think makes people gravitate towards you and like i don't fucking know i could be like to my own horn and be like i'm authentic and i'm gorgeous and i'm this and where i'm a that. I'm like, I don't know. I mean, for a while, it was like an engaging headline. But now I feel like, at least from what people tell me, it started to get more about me personally, which I definitely much prefer than just being some like crazy headline. Which, yeah. Yeah, we're going to keep it about you. But what I think people respond to is that my theory is you're in a position where a lot of people would have, like, shrunk away from the spotlight or, like, you know, been like, okay, this is, this is too much, right?

I want to live a private life. Right. And you, at a very young age, dove in head first as yourself, very, you said authentic. I can say authentic. Very, like, I don't know, vivaciously. Vivacious. I love her. I mean, what made you steer into it that way and just, you know, again, because you were the

recipient of not all positive attention, right? Oh, no. You're in the middle of it. internet and media firestorm. Well, yes. Right. Well, let me dive into it. I mean, you only live once.

I was like, I don't know. Honestly, that was, it was like, you only live once. I mean, why not? Yeah. It was kind of just, why not? I'm going to, I made like a little threads account. I made a little TikTok account and people watched it. I just did what I want on there.

People liked it. Some people didn't. That's fine. Yeah. You know. But, I mean, literally, I probably should have had a more thought-out process than, why not? I mean, like, in the beginning, it was like, oh, well, I want to take control of this narrative.

And I was like, I don't go to fuck. This is kind of fun. I mean, you took control the narrative so effortlessly, but you also seem so like unbothered by the process of doing so. Yeah, that's what people say about me. Yeah. Like, you don't know what goes on in my head. Maybe I'm secretly struggling with this inner turmoil of conservatives not liking me. Oh, my God.

What I'm going to do? These hate posts on Twitter, they're too much. Okay. See, this is what I need to hear because, look, I'm someone who's worked in the public eye for many years. Yeah, I used to watch your show. Thank you. You used to watch my show. When I was in high school.

It's paying off now, isn't it? I guess. Now that high school audience, they've, grown up, and now they'll come on my podcast. This is how we get guests. Exactly. Thank you. Did you enjoy the show when you watch the nice?

I did enjoy the show. Yeah, it was fun. I liked the show. That's great. That's all I wanted. It was fun. It was fun. I don't know.

Literally, when I, you know, I grew up watching cable TV. Uh-huh. What's that? How was it? You know what it was like. You also watched cable TV. Because you said you watched my show, which is on cable, or did you only watch it on YouTube? I watched it.

Wasn't it on a streaming service? It was on Netflix for a little while. It was on Max. When were you in high school? What year were you taught? I graduated high school in 2022. Jesus Christ. Okay.

Okay. All right. So then, yes, you probably saw it on a streaming service. You probably didn't see it on cable. Unless in like 2020, they were airing it at like 6 a.m. on TV. I was not watching it at 6 a.m. Yeah. Okay.

You were watching on a streaming service. Okay. I had like direct TV when I was. Little, which is how I watched, like, Harley and whatnot, because you would stream it. Well, you wouldn't, like, watch it on the cable. It would be, like, recording it, and that it would save to your thing. And then you could watch the episodes. You would watch a DVR.

I don't know what. Is that what is? That's what you're describing is called DVR. Okay, great. You don't know what it is, but you don't know what. I'm not good at technology. That's fine. I let other people do.

Did you ever watch cable channels live? Do you ever, like, flip, like, channel up, channel down? Um, no. And I vividly remember that when I was, like, 10. instead of like watching because normally it was a direct TV

or whatever back in the day of 10 years ago you would like the latest recorded episodes like the ones that I've streamed most recently you'd have a choice

and I remember being so confused why after the episode it just kept playing and it wouldn't stop because that was when we accidentally watched it like live

on cable and I was so confused in my little 10 year old brain you were like why is it still going, why doesn't it end and say next episode in 5, 4, 3, 2? You know, like this is a continuous

video feed of more stuff? Yeah. Okay, well, all I was going to say is I grew up watching cable and I used to watch people on cable and go, oh, I remember that person, and I'd see them later in real life. And then I had the experience of people doing the same thing for me in the last days of cable. Yeah.

But you were not even watching on cable. No. I was watching. I don't think I was watching the cable. I don't maybe I was. The platform does matter that much. I appreciate you. Does anyone remember what platform they watched something on years ago? No. Obviously. I'm a little doing about media

formats. What I was going to say is so I work in the public eye and you end up caring about other people's opinions. You want the audience to like you. Yeah. And when there's people who hate you, it is difficult to have it not affect you, even when intellectually you don't care about those people's opinions. Well, I mean, it depends on the type of people that hit me. Yeah. I was telling Matt about this where it's like, if it's

like people on the last... Who's Matt? You were telling Matt? Matt Bernstein. Okay. Love them. But I was talking about this, where it's like, if it's people, like, on the left and they don't like me, that sometimes will get to me. But if it's, like, conservatives for, like, you know, hate posting about me on a website that I never go to, like, fucking, I don't know. It's, like, on a website that I don't know. It's like, I don't understand why that would get to me.

But they come to the websites that you're on, do they not? Do they come to where you are and yell at you? I get hate comments being, like, you'll never be a woman, and I'm like. Well, you'll never be known. No one knows who you are. Block. So, I like blocking people. It's very fun.

I was kind of like not super into it, but now it's like, oh, I can go into the comments and I can just block people. It's very, it's very therapeutic, actually. Yeah. I think so. You just eradicate them from your existence. Yeah. They can't see you. You can't see them.

Uh-huh. They're gone. That makes the matter, though. Then they can screenshot the block and share it with each other and like, look, she blocked me. Well, they're blocked, so I won't see them. Yeah. Fair. Wow.

I'm a proponent for blocking. Yeah. This is so empowering for me to talk to you because I let this stuff interfere with my life way too much. Like I'll go, I used to have a bad habit with name searching with like looking for. You do that? I do that. Okay. Tell me about that.

Well, sometimes I will like Google my name or search it on like Reddit or something. Reddit is where you find the really mean shit. No, that's the website of which I do not speak of, which I have Googled my name on once they're But Reddit people are very, I don't know. It's like compared to the other websites, they're less extreme, but like, I don't know. Okay, they like you on Reddit. I don't know if they like me on Reddit. Reddit as a website very much dislikes me.

The Reddit, because they see themselves in me. Do they? They do. The Redditors say, this is what they always say. They go, oh, Adam Conover, that guy's like a human Redditor. He's so annoying. And they're saying this on Reddit. Oh.

Do they say that? They do say that. Well. Maybe they have a point. But I don't want to be like them. I don't want to be hated by my own kind. This is Reddit. Adam Conover doesn't like you.

Blocked. You can't block people on Reddit. I know. That's part of the problem. Oh. The problem with Reddit is that they treat the internet like, like they're sort of like a king on a parade stand watching a parade of the internet before them reviewing what they like and what they don't, you know?

The Reddit tone is like. Hmm, this pleases me. I've seen better. What fucking subreddits are you on? This is all of them. No, it's not. What's your experience? R-slash RuPaul's Drag Race.

Okay, that sounds like a really nice community. I don't know about that. Okay. They mostly like me, kind of. Yeah, I think most of them are like, well, they're kind of indifferent to me. I like that. Yeah. What do people say about you on Reddit?

Well, I don't remember what people comment about me. Okay, fair enough. But, one of fives about Reddit. And I talked about this on TikTok. I found out about the existence of one of the half-siblings on that website on R-Slechrom-Stra. You found out about the existence of one of your own half-siblings? Yeah. On that subreddit?

Is it? Yeah. How did that happen? Tatiana made it. Tatiana is a drag queen. Tatiana is a drag queen and she made a tweet about it. And then that tweet got posted on R-Slech-R-Strek race, and that's how I found out. Yeah.

And what was that? that like for you? Strange. Yeah. I mean, what the, like, I don't, it was kind of like indescribable. It was like, oh, this is just a thing. I mean, nowadays I found out about one. It's like, oh, okay, whatever.

Now when you find out about a half sibling, you're like, okay. I'm like, oh, there's another one. That's like, how many times? How often does this happen to you? It's become. It has become so often to the point where it doesn't even interfere with my day, which is a horrible thing to say about a human being. But it's just happened so many times

At the point where I'm completely nullified There was something about a Japanese pop star The other week and I was just like, oh I'm going to go to Wendy's Like What do y'all want? Y'all want a baconator? I got a horrible thing to say

About a living, breathing human being But like What the fuck am I supposed to do? Another day, another half sibling Pretty much. This one wanders in. I literally was making a TikTok about, like, I found out I have seven or six, no, however many have siblings from. It's like, I found out two from Reddit, one from Threads, no, was it two from Reddit?

I think it was more than that. It's some from the news, some from Reddy. Some from just literal exposés and news sources. Yeah, one from threads. Someone added me in threads being like, did you know this? And I was like, oh, okay. At Vivillinus At Vivlinus

It's the word It's the word villainous It's a little hard to say No it's not Vivlinus Yeah Okay You found out someone

Tag at Vivlinus Hey you should know You got a half sibling Yeah Insane And then I double check it I'm like oh they're right I'm gonna go to Wendy's

I don't go to Wendy's I don't know why I said that That was a lie I lied If I ate a Baconator For every time I had a half sibling I think they're so fucking disgusting Baconators or half siblings

Bacon ateers Okay I think they're gross I don't like bacon I'm sorry You brought it up I did I don't know

Wendy's was just the first Passenger Jay Bucking Have you I never eat at Wendy's Are you Are you concerned about Because sorry to Wendy's Some of your half siblings

Are young But are you concerned about Your family reunions in the future Like what is that I'm not gonna have any Yeah no I'm not fucking No contact means no contact

Fair So I'm not getting Do you think I'm getting invited The fucking family reunions no no but maybe maybe eventually you'll have some solid they'll like some solidarity will grow maybe some others will go no contact and then you'll like what a k-pop group a little a little idol vance vivlinus and the half siblings annual tour you'll do coordinated dances no that was a horrible

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I mean, is it, is it like intense for you being in, again, you do stuff and it's a new story at a very young age and a new story that you don't always have control over, right? About, yeah. Sometimes I feel old because I look at, because I watched K-pop Demon Hunters, which kind of reignited by a little K-pop face. And then I look at these K-pop idols and I'm like, this bitch, it's 16. Yeah. That makes me feel old. Yeah. I can imagine how that makes you feel.

I don't really think about these. age of K-pop stars generally. Yeah. I'm doing okay age-wise, I think.

How do you think I'm doing? Well, you're alive. Yeah, that's good. That's good. So you think your K-pop days are

behind you? You're not going to... Well, I don't... You've aged out. I mean... Girl. I mean, unless something very drastic

happens, I'm not going to be debuting the fucking K-pop group. Unless there's a series of a of events that are, like, insanely unpredictable. Like, suddenly, I become fluent in Korean.

Suddenly, I move to Korea. Yeah. Suddenly, I can sing. And suddenly, I don't even know how I would get into a fucking K-pop group. I don't want to be in a K-pop group. I don't think. I mean, but do you, so many things have happened to you already. You have been modeling for Teen Vogue?

Yeah, that was cool. That was cool. I love that. I love that. I love that. And so why narrow your aperture? Why say no to life in this moment? Well, because I'm not Korean versus.

of all. But is everyone in a K-pop group Korean? No. Right. But, like, also, I'm 21, and also I'm six feet tall, and also I can't sing. And also, I don't want to. Okay. What do you want to do?

I don't know. Yeah. Who knows? Figuring it out? Yeah, I'm 21. People ask me this question all the time. Like, what are you going to use this fame for? And, like, bitch, people were asking me this, like, because I got famous in late July.

People were asking me this in August. I've been famous for two weeks. Calm down. But, like, literally, I'm trying to figure that out, so I guess. I like modeling. Modeling's really fun. Like, it's how I get, it's how I pay my rent currently, which love that. Obviously, I have my little TikTok and my little threads, my little win-a-a-ons.

But, yeah. Do you feel that, like, just the way you talked about getting famous just now? You're like, I got famous in July, and now it's August, right? It's a year ago. You're talking about last July. Yeah. I think of the moderate, minor amount of fame I have, as something that, like, I worked extremely hard

to, like, build, you know, it was like 10 years of working with no notoriety and then, like, do a gig here and a gig there, okay, get a TV show, et cetera. For you, it was all at once. Literally instant. It went from, I had 22 followers on threads to six hours later.

Jamie Lee Curtis followed me on threads. Hi, Jamie Lee Curtis. If you're watching, if you're watching, hello. He seemed lovely. It's bigger than anything I got. I don't got Jamie. I don't even post. on threads ever. Do you feel that that was something that happened to you or was that something

that you claimed and made happen for yourself? Well, okay. Initially, when I posted a little friends post, which is probably the most unhinged I have ever been, because that was before the age of having a digital footprint that actually mattered. Yeah. So it's just like, I'm going to be unhinged. And like, this is going to go with 300 views. And people are probably not going to believe it's me. And I'm fine with that. And then it went super fucking viral. Yeah. And then I made the news. And then I was just like, okay, whatever, I guess. This was, you posted, this was in response to you being in the news, right, and being

discussed. And then you're like, here's what actually happened. Okay, it was in response to the lobster guy, Jordan Peterson, I forgot his name. Drag him. Yeah, I do drag him. The lobster guy. The lobster guy. He talks about lobsters a lot.

He does. Go on. He's like really obsessed with lobsters. Yeah. I think he's secretly like a lobster furry. I think, no, I would love that for him. He dressed up as a little lobster, goes to the little furry convention? Is he?

Is he like, do you think there are other lobster furries or is he the only one? I don't know much of a freak. I mean, there's got to be, like, there are plain furries. There's got to be lobster furies. Yeah, you don't see a lot of crustaceans, but it could be. Yeah, I see crabs. You really got to get tested after you fuck a crab at a furry convention. Okay, well, furries, it's not like an inherently set.

How are we talking about furies? They don't all, you're right. It's not inherently sexual community. I'm sorry to the furries out there. You're right. I love you, furries. Good job. We got so deep down a rabbit hole so fast.

I have no idea what we're supposed to be talking about. We're supposed to be talking about. There was a podcast with Jordan Peterson. Yeah, he talked to it about me, and then I went viral, and then I responded, and then I went more viral. Yeah. And that's how we go offame. But, yeah, thank you.

But that wasn't something you were seeing. Speaking in that moment, you were like, 300 people will see this. It was kind of just like an accumulation of I have a lot of like, I was really tired of constantly being defamed, honestly, in the public eye. And I was like, I'm fucking sick of this. I'm going to just like give it a shot. If people see it, they see it. And people don't, they don't. And then a lot more people saw than I was anticipating, which tends to be a pattern.

Yeah. A lot of more people tend to view more things that I anticipate, which I feel like is better than the universe. Because if you're, like, expecting a lot of people to see your thing, and then they don't, that could probably produce a lot of feelings of disappointment. Yes. And I'm kind of the thing where it's like, I always expect the least and then the most happens. And I'm just like, if I expect the least and then the least happens, I'm like, I'm okay with this. And I'm like, I'm good with that. But then if more it happens, I'm like, oh, okay.

But yeah, I made the most unhinged threads post in existence. What was in the post if you, if you? I don't remember the exact phrase, but it was very, um, angsty, 20-year-old. who's, like, sick of this shit. Yeah. Like, Anxby a 20-year-old, chronically online. But you were saying, here's the actual fucking deal. I don't know if it was more like actually.

It was a lot of insults. It was a lot of insults. It was kind of that big. It was like, here's what actually happened. And then a lot of insults. Yeah. I remember I ended it with, like, go touch some fucking grass, sparkle emoji.

I don't know what I was thinking, but that was kind of iconic of me. It was. Do you think part of why it went so viral is because you're like a pro-level poster from, like, years on the internet? I think the main reason I went viral is because I'm an Epo. Yes. That's the honest. Yes. I'm not, people get like, okay, I was literally telling Elijah about this yesterday. So I don't know.

Who's Elijah? Elijah Daniel. These people, okay, that tells me nothing, but Elijah sounds awesome. Yeah, he's great. I was on his podcast yesterday. I was literally having this exact conversation. But, no, I was like, people have debates on whether, like, a, like, a, enough power all the time on the internet and they get like really heated and I'm like I am it's fine

calm down like relax it's I am it's totally fine don't worry about it yeah I mean different from the way that your average Hollywood well yeah it's not like I got it's not like I don't really understand how Hollywood it's like they get roles for them I mean it's harder it it uh it well in Hollywood it's all the way from yes someone like literally pulling strings for their kid to hey they grew up in Hollywood around a lot of actors and saw the career path, you know, in the same way that if you, I don't know, grew up in New York and your parent worked in publishing, you'd be like, I understand books or whatever. You know, like, some of it's natural.

And like, of course, if you grow up in Iowa and you're the kid of some farmers, like, it'll seem, you'll understand the career, you'll understand the industry. You'll understand the career. It's an easier path. And then there's the part that people, I think, object to a lot more, which is the pulling of strings or the opening of the way. But, like, that's like, well, if they're good at it, then people don't find out that they're pulling the string. Yes.

So maybe they should get better. There are some people in Hollywood who have the strings pulled for them, and they don't care that anybody knows. They're just like, let's just, I'll just take. Ooh, name names. I don't want to. Name names. Can we cut it out, Tony? Well, you know what?

They can't be doing that well if you don't know who they are. But you are not a nepo baby in the sense that you don't have a parent pulling the strings to ease your way. right in the what you're doing in fact you are doing it despite i guess kind of yeah there's no one pulling my strings yeah actually but you are maybe you're maybe coasting on a wave of publicity that not everybody else has access to yeah there's another way to put it yeah how do you feel about that i'm obviously okay i'm just like very very grateful that i've like people have been so supportive for me and obviously i do recognize that i am an apo obviously and uh no i mean if i got this like drawing with a publicity, I might as well

ride it, I guess. Yeah, I just put myself out there. If people like me, then they like me, I guess. I also think that maybe people have more grace for you than for others because they, you know, look at how you became famous and they recognize, hey, that, not everything is great about that. That's not necessarily an easy, an easy thing to go through. Hmm. I see that. Yeah. I think also part of it's just because I'm, like, more politically active, I guess, like on the left.

What do you care about politically? That's such a vague question. Okay, fair enough. Like, what is everything you think right now? Every opinion. Name all of them. In what ways have you been politically active? I've been politically active on social media, which does mean like literally the least.

But again, it's kind of like the bare minimum. Unfortunately, it's not like a bare minimum that a lot of people adhere to. Yeah. So, there's that. I mean, when you're, when you're 21, it's a good start. What do I want to see? Oh, you have a clipboard. I have a clipboard.

Yeah, very for sure. It's see-through. What did you say? It's see-through. It's a see-through clipboard. Yeah, you can see the back. I can see the tags. I don't know the questions because they're all like, it's small and backwards, but

like if I had better eyesight and could read backwards. You want to try to, no, it's fine. I think, I just saw the words, I think, hold on, lift it up again. Yeah. I think there are a lot of misconceptions. Yeah. For the record, this is backwards and upside down. Is it upside down?

It's not upside down. It's just backwards. You're doing great. I want you to read this whole question. I want you to answer the question. It's backwards and inverse. Yeah. Misconceptions about what it's like to transition as a young person.

What was, I saw, what was that process like for you? That's great. Yeah. I sound like a fucking robot. I would love to know the answer to that question. I've been asked this question like eight million times. How was that, like, question, like, for me? How was that process like for me?

Well, I was trans. I don't know. Yes. I feel like people expect more of a detailed answer about, like, what's it like transitioning as minor? What's it like transitioning at any other point in my life? Like, I have no point of reference of how it's like to transition as a minor versus how it's like to transition as not.

I'm not asking you to compare and contrast. I'm just, like, I think, okay, the reason I'm interested in the answer to that question is that, as I've said on the show before, trans people have become such a, like, politicized issue in America. There's so many people on TV talking about trans people right now. There are comparatively fewer trans people just talking in the media. And so I think it's useful just to hear those stories. Of course. People, I've seen people say like they think that like everyone who like like every doctor who gives a prescription for like HRT to a minor should be like imprisoned. Like my endocrinologist is like a lovely person. I love her. Yeah. Yeah. Like

don't do that but what was it like um it was i mean there was like a lot more legal loopholes i had to jump through it not loopholes but there was like a lot yeah that's the word there was a lot legal hoops i had to jump through it which was really fucking annoying and that was in the state of california which is like a very blue state yeah um like what do you have to prove um i had to have uh like several gender dysphoria uh diagnoses and i had to get parental consent from both parties which was a fucking nightmare, yeah, for obvious reasons. But I'm like kind of, and now I think they banned it, like nationwide for anyone under the age of 19.

I think they're fighting it in the courts. I'm not, I have. They have the Supreme Court decision? Yeah. The Supreme Court decision allows states to ban it into individual states. Oh, okay. And a whole bunch of states have like dozens of states have now banned it, not California. Yeah.

But, and I think they're also, the other thing that they've done is, um, the Trump administration is going after any hospital that gets federal funding if they also are doing gender transition. So, like, the children's hospital here in L.A. announced they were canceling because it imperils the rest of their federal funds. So that's, it's a bad situation. Yeah, completely. It's horrible. What was it like for me as a minor?

Yeah, I had to jump through a lot of holes. And something that, like, occurs to me is because I had to get, like, a diagnosis for gender dysphoria. And I'm like, what if someone can't afford that as a minor? Like. But if they can't afford to get the diagnosis? Yeah, because that's not cheap. So I'm just, like, very fortunate that I was able to, and I don't want to take that for granted, obviously. I received a lot of support in my personal life, and obviously the other stuff.

And I'm very grateful for all the support that I received from my friends. What did you do for pride this year? What did I do for pride this year? I went to it for the first time. This was the first time I ever went to pride, which people were very surprised by it. Yeah. Where were you? I was in WeHo.

Hell yeah. Yeah, I just went to WeHo pride with a friend. I got, they had these, like, cute little fans. There was just, like, they had these, like, boots, and some of them were, like, just, like, giving out, like, free, like, fans or pens. And I thought that was really cute. Also, there was, like, a WeHo Dodgeball, like, gay league that I wanted to join. And then I was, like, that's, like, a really long drive, so I'm not going to do it. But I wanted to do it.

And I think it's the thought that counts. Like, you were in WeHo, you're like, I don't want to have to come back to WeHo every week to join gay Dodgeball. Pretty much. Yeah. I want to do gay dodgeball, though. It sounds like a lot of fun. It sounds like... I love dodgeball.

It sounds like the only guy of dodge ball I would want to do. Dodgeball is like a bullying sport. Yeah. I'm the bully. You think I don't get down with Dodgeball? Look at these guns. That was the kind of sport I would just almost refuse to play when I was in like middle school and high school. I would like hide in the corner and the other kids would make fun of me.

What balls were they using? They're using like... Because they've changed it. The kickballs. What's a kid ball? Like the red bouncy ones? The red bouncy ones, they go like, bing, when you kick them. Okay, yeah, that's a lot.

Because we, in nowadays, they use like the softer ones. Right. That won't literally murder you if you get hit by them, which probably makes a lot more sense. Yeah. Probably what they should have been doing originally because that seems like a giant. But why is this? Dodgeball is the craziest sport because why is it a sport that is only played by children? Only children play a sport where you throw the ball at each other's hands.

I want to see like Olympic level dodgeball. Yeah. That would be so fun to watch. That would actually make me give a fuck about the Olympics. The only time I give a fuck about the Olympics is when someone mentions like how good Simone Biles is and I'm like, love her. Yeah. But other than that, I don't care. I love Simone Biles.

We all love Simone Biles. When she got the twisties and she couldn't compete, I was like, been there. I was like relatable. For real. I've gotten like, you know, panic attacks on stage. No, no, for real. I've gotten like, there have been times of my life doing stand-up,

I've gotten like panic attacks on stage and where I think I know how to do this thing. Like I've done it a million times and then suddenly I'm unable to do it just temporarily. It's only happened once or twice. It's really destabilizing and frightening. And so for her to say,

that's happening to me right now. I'm not going to compete like in this event where it's like she's been training four years and everybody wants her to, you know, and everyone's like looking at her. She's going to be on television. I'm not safe. I'm not going to do it.

I was like, wow. That's like, that's admirable. Like, she recognizes her limits, and I think more people need to do that. Not, like, limits isn't, like, physical limits, but, like, limits isn't, like, what you're, like, mentally willing or able to do. Like, she recognized that it would take more out of her than it would give back. And I think that's really important. Yeah. National treasurer Simone Biles.

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Who are your other inspirations? Well, I don't do gymnastics. Yeah. So I don't know if I recall like Simone Biles, one of my inspiration. Love her. Yeah. I don't do gymnastics. You don't need to do gymnastics to be inspired by Simone Biles.

Yeah, that's fair. Plenty of people are. We're all inspired by Simone Biles. Yeah. Yeah. Love Simone Bile. Who do you admire? Who do I admire? I admire Sasha Colby.

I saw you talk to Sasha Colby. I did. That was the craziest thing that was probably ever happens to me in my life. More exciting than talking to me. Well, yeah. Even that you did see me on direct TV in high school. I also saw Sasha Colby. Well, I wasn't in high school. I was in college.

But I knew of her. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you saw me first before Sasha Colby. On TV. And yet I made less of an impression on you. Like, you've been watching my work. I really don't, I truly don't expect to be high on your list.

It sounds so evil. Yeah, you're viveliness. Yeah. Yeah. That's my thing. I'm evil. Oh. I came up with that.

It was like, oh, I love, I like, I love Disney villains. Like, I love the, I think I'm always like more entertaining, more eccentric and more like overall. Charismatic. Yeah. I was like, I'm like, and now I, like, sometimes I look at it. I'm like, this sounds like a fucking Tumblr name. And I'm like, oh. You can change it.

I'm not changing it. you don't worry about losing your checkmark, you can change it. I'm not changing it. Okay. I don't have a check mark. I'm on fucking threads. You think I got a checkmark on threads? That's what to do that?

Do they have check marks on threads? I don't know. What do they even have there? Well, they have me. Yeah. So that's why you should get it. Yeah. Okay.

That's your main place is threads. Okay. You know, here's the thing. Here's the two. I'm so sorry to threads. But like I was with my friends who was an influencer and she got a fucking PR package from threads and I haven't gotten anything like they sent her what like I don't even know I think it was like an hourglass or something I don't really remember an hourglass I don't remember that times the amount

of time that threads is going to exist I have literally no idea but I was like you got something for fast and I didn't I'm the only person who was gone famous from this god forbidding website and they didn't give me shit like god damn it love you threads mm-uh I just can't get over the fact of the idea that they'd send you an hourglass it's so ominous like give me an hour Before Mark Zuckerberg shows up at your house with a scythe. I did ratio him on the reds. What did you say? I ratioed him on threads.

What did you do? He was talking about changes to the app, which is like, I'm actually, it's okay to misgender trans people. And I don't really remember what I said, but I ratioed him. Right. I will post something, and it's gone from my memory. I know it. Like, I will have no idea. I will, like, scroll back through some of my old posts.

I'm like, I said this. I don't remember posting this. See, I think, again, that's. That's what people like about you is that you don't give a fuck. I spend so much time worrying about what I'm going to post. And you're just like, you're just going through. You just bam, bam, bam. Well, I think you're a shit poster.

That's a good thing to be. Oh, wow. That's a good thing to be. How fucking old do I sound? Very. God damn. Sorry. I'm honest.

I was going to tell the tea, the whole tea. We used to have this. thing called cable. God. Oh, wow. Incredible. Is your voice okay after doing that? So you

conceive of yourself as a villain that's part of your persona? That divot. You're here being villainous on my show. Well, I don't know if it's like part of my persona. I don't know if I have a persona.

But I just, I like the villains in movies and I was like, I'm going to need myself after them because it's cool and edgy. Yeah. Very Tumblr, very Tumblr asked. But yeah. You're a villain. I feel it.

I feel evil energy radiating off of you. I am evil. You heard here first. Adam Conover called me an evil bitch. He's transphobic. I didn't say. I didn't say bitch. You messaged me on blue sky, which is crazy.

I messaged you on blue sky. Blue sky. I didn't remember that that was where I messaged you. Adam Conover doesn't remember messaging me. Cancel him. Are you not on blue sky? I am on blue sky. That's how I received your fucking message.

Yeah. How do you? But why. was it weird that I message you on blue sky as opposed to me where else? Because I don't message as anyone on blue sky. That's just not a thing. Oh. You're fine. You're fine. You just knocked over some books by past guests to the show. Oh. One day if you write a book, your book can go up there too. Damn. My apologies. How do you compare and contrast threads in blue sky? What's the vibe difference? The vibe difference is, okay, people on blue sky is more like Tumblr and threads is

Blue Sky is actually very similar to Tumblr in a lot of ways, in my opinion. I like them both. There is definitely a different vibe. People on Blue Sky are, how do I say this delicately? More chronically offended by certain things that are not actually that big of a deal. Like, they tend to have a lot more.

Someone is just carrying a plant through the window and I'm very distracted. I was like, wow. Oh, by the studio window. Yeah. I thought you meant that that was the tone on blue sky, that people on blue sky are like, wow, someone's carrying a plant through the window and I cannot handle it. No, blue sky is lovely. It's a lovely place.

But sometimes I feel like the arguments on there can get so niche to the point. I'm like, what are we even talking about? Blue sky was formed by all these people who left Twitter because they were like, Twitter's full of Nazis. No, blue sky was formed by people. I feel like, in my opinion, blue sky was formed by people who left Twitter to go on threads and then left threads to go on blue sky. Fair enough. I love loose guys, though. They're very nice.

I mean, I am also one of the people who gets, like, into kind of these, like, chronically online arguments where it's, like, has no actual functional purpose in the real world. But I don't know. Sometimes it can be, like, entertaining. What was the last argument you got into? Well, nowadays, I just don't. I feel like I don't give a book. But back, when I didn't have a digital footprint, mostly about, like, fandom discourse. Phantom discourse?

I have gone in a few fandom discourse. What's the fandom discourse about what you feel most passionately? I don't know. I got into, like, a lot of fucking debates. online about drag race, which was like, I'm nailing this fucking podcast, y'all. People in vandums will get, you're doing a great job. I did not mean to talk shit about blue sky. That sounded like a lot ruder than I intended.

People in blue sky are going to get really mad. I hope they don't. Don't. They're, look, they're either mad about this or they're mad about something else. Thank you for following me on blue sky. I love you, Blue Sky. I'm sorry, I close your chronically online. A lot of people are like, chronically online is like a leftist.

I think it's more of a right-wing thing. People on the least guy are not right wing. Your hair is just cobwebbing across everything. Yeah, it does that. It's incredible. How do you manage this? I don't. You just learned to live with the consequences.

So unbothered. You see what I'm saying? Look at this. Look, I'm going to ask you one more big trans question. Is that okay? Okay. Do you have a day? I'm kidding.

What did you say? Are you going to ask, do you have a dick? No, God. I've been asked that a lot. That's the one question I know not to ask. Yeah. I've been very well instructed in what to ask or what not to ask. People are like, can I see that?

The answer is no. Okay, good. Actually, I don't have one, or do I. The mystery lives on. This is horrible. This is horrible. That is one of the most enigmatic things anyone has ever said on this show. Yeah.

I'm killing myself. That was so bad. I can't say that. I forgot you can't say I'm killing myself anymore. Oh. No. You can say you're killing yourself. I miss telling people to kill it.

I miss telling people to kill themselves online. It was so much fun. Can I tell you the other day I was talking to somebody and they said, fucking canceled. And they said, unalive myself in real life. Don't. I hate it. As though like a Zuckerberg algorithm is going to censor you at the coffee shop.

Like we got to get over this. I feel like people were saying like unalive in real life. I was like ironically. I know it's just become unironic. This was not ironic. This person just literally meant they were talking about suicide. And they said, Unalive, instead of commit suicide. Why are you making fun of people's patterns of speech?

It's not a little bit rude. We have a platform. We have to be responsible. You're such a villain. Look at this. Look what you've done to me on my own show. What have I done? Yeah, you've turned it around on me.

I don't know what you're talking about. I think you're going crazy. I never did anything of the sword. This is the most off balance I've ever been on my own show. I don't know what you're talking about. This is very balanced. Are you, is this gas lighting? Is that?

I don't know what that is. Are you good? Are you okay? Are you hyper-valating? I was so, I don't know where I am. Do you need a paper bag? I was trying to ask you a serious clipboard question. Is this how you get out of it?

Breathe out. You do a meditation for me? Yeah. You're doing better. Why are you bringing so loud? God damn it. Vivian. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Let's restabilize. I got to be an interviewer again. Oh, yeah. Fuck. Okay, here we go. That was violent. Are you okay?

Do you have violent tendencies? I didn't before. But I feel a little, but I feel a little wound tight now. Damn. Maybe you should get that checked out. Oh, wow. You're fucking running circles around me. That's so, you're cracking your knuckles.

What does that mean to you? That means you're going to commit violence. I think you need to be checked into a psychiatric word. I think it's a sign of anxiety and nervousness in this situation. until I think you're using your anxiety to get the better of me. I'm not comfortable with that. Okay. You're turning around literally everything I do or say.

I don't know what you're talking about. I would never do anything of this word. I feel so cornered. Calm down. I'm so calm. You should be. You'll get there. What would you like to talk about?

I'm very good of bullying people. That's what I've learned today. You know what? you just did you fucking pelted me with dodge balls yeah that's what that was yeah conversational dodge balls i want to pelt some of physical dodgeball i want to my dodge ball dodge ball is so much fun we should go play dodgeball sometimes is there a place we go play i don't know but not in we ho it's too far it's not too far it's just over's are expensive but i don't have my license yet uh the question the question i was going to ask you is what you make of being queer in this period where the government is it's

trying to, trying to, like, using its power against queer people. It's horrific. Yeah. It's a horrific feeling. I don't like it. And I have a better. I'm in a very privileged position where I have it better than, like, 99% of queer people, like, at least. And it still sucks.

Like, my heart really just hurts for our community because these are, like, real people that are talked about, like, they're nothing more than just either brainwashed or, or victims or villains. I said this on threads where there's this like interesting dichotomy where a lot of people who are queer are either are treated as both like as like stupid and brainwashed and like helpless but also these like like provocateurs almost of like it's like villainous provocateurs because it's like the simultaneous juxtaposition, SAT words, it's like the simultaneous juxtaposition of these two, like, perceptions.

And it just doesn't make any goddamn sense. It's angry. And I've just... Yeah. It's upsetting how people fall for it so easily. It's like people... Like, that was just, like, about me in particular. Like...

Either you're brainwashed or it's an evil scheme. It's usually both. People, like, think you're both at the same time. Yeah. It's like, that doesn't make a goddamn sense. Yeah. Yeah. People think I'm both, like, was the victim of brainwashing

and also this, like, giant, evil, horrible person, which I guess I am. But the latter one is the- You're a six-foot-tall villain. Yeah, I am six-feet-pulled. People don't realize I'm six-feet tall. When I first started posting my full-body photos, people were like, you're really fucking tall. You know? I'm taller than you. I know.

You should grow. You should grow? I can't. Damn. I'm in my 40s. They have surgeries for that. You know, they have those, they have surgeries. Do you just call me Viv?

Viv. Yeah. No, you can call me Vivian. Okay, because of Vivlinness. Yeah, they have limb lengthening surgery. Yeah, you want to get that. I see people get it. I know someone that got it in high school.

Oh. Yeah, no. That's not good. It's not a good thing. It's a horrible, horrible. It's not like, obviously, if you choose to get it, that's like your thing. But it's like a horrible, painful surgery. Yeah, they break your legs and they add more leg.

Pretty much. Yeah. It's like really, it's like even more violent than that. It's just like I, the beauty standards have gotten to a point. And I know I should not be saying this since I'm literally a model or whatever, but the beauty standards have gotten to a point. where people feel like they have to take such drastic measures to feel beautiful, and that kind of sucks. Yeah.

A lot. God forbid a girl from standing the obvious, but whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the limb lengthening surgery is a thing that men generally do because they have a complex about being short. Short, yeah. And that's not good. I feel like people don't talk about, like, male beauty standards enough.

Like, because there is, like, a genuine pressure, and it's, like, there as well. People really only talk about, like, female beauty standards. And I feel like male beauty standards, like, don't talk, get talked about enough. Never. Because male beauty stands up to R and state. People have done like, that's how mewing became a thing because people wanted like a sharper jawline. Oh yeah. What is mewling again?

I don't really know. It's mewing. It's like a thing. It's like an exercise to improve your jaw. I don't fucking do it. So I don't know what it is. But I think it's something that like makes your chin more defined. It's like a looks maxing intel thing.

Right? Look. Should you just use the word looks maxing? How do you know what that is? Because I'm on the fucking internet. You know what's fair enough. Why don't you think I don't you see me and you're like he doesn't know what looks maxing is? Yes.

Well, what do you think of me now that you know that I do? Am I impressing you? No. Are you maybe reconsidering what you thought about me? No. No. This is all for time. I'm not actually bullying him.

He doesn't feel anything. I can't believe I invited such a mean teen on the show. I'm 21 years old. You've got the vibe of a mean teen. I'm 21 years old. Yeah, I know. Is this your attempt to bully me back? Let's.

We were having such a good serious conversation about trans rights in America. I'm very bad I'm being serious. I feel like people should have learned this better. People try to have a serious conversation with me and I try to, and I just, I end up derailing it the fuck off. I don't know. But yeah, no, being queer in America right now kind of sucks. Yeah. How is, I'm just curious, you know, you were saying you went to pride for the first time.

I did. It was fun. Talking to Sasha Colby and et cetera, is that kind of community important? Yeah, obviously. community has, like, been such a huge help. It's probably over 95% of the people to support me. And you're the first straight man I've talked to in at least several days. That's quite an assumption. I mean, I don't fucking know. Are you? Congratulations on coming out. I'm the first straight man you've spoken to in several days. You were the first person

who I thought was straight person that I've talked to several days. It's probably a little longer than that, to be honest. I need to make more straight friends. Like, even at CVS. I need to have, like, I need to, like, DEI more straight friends. You need to DEI straight friends. Yeah. I don't know.

Like, the numbers are down. We need to start a program. Yeah. Need to bring in some new applicants. Yeah. Well, okay. Here I am. You're welcome.

Right? I'm applying to be your friend. Projected. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

I'm kidding. Okay. This is, see, this is what there's, DEI is a sham and a fraud because I'm rejected out of hand. Yeah. Didn't even let me in the building. But, you would have had the advantage

because you're a straight and I need more straight friends. So even with the advantage of being straight and you need more straight friends. This is a bad bit. This is a bad bit. I don't know where we're going with this. I think we yes and did a bit too much there.

I have never flopped so hard on my own show as when talking to you. I'm trying to, yes, and I'm trying to engage you in a bit, and then halfway through. I'm going to stop getting invited to podcasts. Do you think, what do you think people are going to say about our chemistry in the comments? Are they going to say, oh, you two, the good chemistry is you two should start a podcast together. Yeah. Bad chemistry is these two look so uncomfortable talking to each other.

They're going to say they should have a gladiatorial match in toward these issues out. A gladiatorial match. Yeah. I was, like, obsessed with gladiators when I was little. You were obsessed with, like, Roman gladiators. Yeah. What drew you to gladiators? I don't know.

I was big into the Hunger Games. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. So not Roman gladiators, fictional gladiators. Well, also Roman gladiators. I was like, I was looking at the different types. It was like, oh, they have different weapons, and they're only allowed certain combinations of weapons, and that's pretty interesting.

Favorite weapon? Well, like, also, people died. You know, every gladiator who was in Roman times is dead. That's true. That's a higher death rate than smoking. Yeah. They're all dead down. They're all dead.

100%. And let that be a lesson to you if you're thinking about getting into that. Don't kill people with sorts. Yeah. And then try to live for 2,000 years. It won't work. What's the sickest gladiator weapon? The Trident.

They had like a Trident and a net. It was pretty sick. A trident. A net. Oh, a trident and a net. Yeah. I thought that was just Poseidon. There would be real guys with tridents and nets.

Yeah, that was like one of the loadouts you could get. Can I just say loadouts? You load out. Like they're putting together. I feel sorry to all. A lot of gladiators, they don't really, like, die most of the time. Because, like, it was, like, a very rare occurrence. There was a rare occurrence that they would die.

They would get, like, kill. But, like, they still did get. Most of the time, they just get a net thrown over them and they get poked through the net. Well, they don't, like, well, if someone is, like, a net position where they're, like, it's clear that they're going to lose. They usually just stop and declare what is the winner. But, yeah, and then you have, like, the emperor thumbs down, thumbs up. But, like, that's a little bit romanticized. I feel like I'm doing your bit on your podcast.

Oh, explaining things to me? Yeah, Vivian. How do you think I learn things? is by having people explain them to me on the show. Vivian ruins Roman gladiators. What else are you an expert about? Flags, languages, I don't know. Flags and languages?

Geography, autism, so. You have geography, autism? Well, yeah, pretty much. So these are hyperfixations, flags. Yeah. What's the... I was, like, obsessed with flags. I, like, memorized every single one

when I was, like, six. And I would, like, sort them into little folders on my laptop. That was, like, the commuter laptop. There was a website that I found over 10 years ago called flag ratings where a guy reviewed every single flag and I read them all obsessively.

Yeah, I did that. You can probably imagine the same website. I have, like, different opinion. I think there are, like, I feel like everyone has different opinions of, like, what makes a good flag. But I feel like there are certain ones that are, like, just communally accepted to be better.

But, like, I feel like a lot of the ones that people weren't to who are being, like, bad or ones that I don't necessarily agree with being bad. Like, I don't want to name any, and particularly because people in that nation might get offended. Most people for most nations don't listen to this show. So I think you can drag on.

I think our flag is kind of, Yeah, it's busy. I think it, yeah, I think there's too many stars. I think we should get rid of a few states to yet to shorten the amount of stars. Too many stars. Do we need to do Dakotas? I don't think so. No.

And if we add Puerto Rico, where's the extra star going to go? I think it should be smack dab in the middle. They have 49 stars. Yeah. Two Dakotas are merged. Yeah. And then the other one's just in the middle for no reason. Just right in the middle.

People are going to be like, why's in the middle? It's a conversation starter. Like in the living room. It's like a nice piece of art in the middle of a living room. Yeah. In the middle of the conversation. People at the UN would be like, why is your flag so weird? And I'd be like, it's a conversation starter.

Well, funny you should ask. It's a conversation starter. Exactly. Yeah. What's your favorite flank? My favorite flag. I think the flag of Malawi looks really cool. I think the flag of North Macedonia.

Can you describe either of these? The flag of Malawi, it's black, red, green with a red sun, like a sunrise thing. And then North Macedonia is like a red background with like a yellow sun with like the rays. coming out. You like the sun. I think... The sun is important. Don't get sun burnt, though.

You know a lot about geography? Yeah, I know a lot about geography. How can we demonstrate that on the show? Just quiz me, I guess. I don't fucking know. Okay. It's your show. Why are you asking me for ideas?

You're the producer. That's a great question. It is a great question. That's a great question, Vivian. I feel like I'm interviewing you at this point. That's kind of what has turned into. What are your deepest, darkest thoughts? What lies behind those eyes?

God, I mean, you know, the fear that... That's super fucking interesting. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm about to give you a real answer to your question. Yeah. You know, the... I'm trying to be funny, I'm sorry. No, you were being very funny.

Yeah. By interrupting me and railroading me on my own show after asking me a serious question that required thoughts. That's called bullying. I'm very good of it. Yeah, you... This is the theme of the show is that you're here to bully me. You got like actual guests and it's like, here's a 21-year-old transsexual who believes me

for an hour. Honestly, I think that's what my audience wants. I think they want me to be taken down a peg. I think my audience also wants me to be taken down a peg. I think your audience wants to see you win. No one on the internet wants to see anyone win. That's the first rule of the internet. I think people are rooting for you.

I think that's the main thing. People are rooting for me, but you know what people love more than a rooting for someone? What? I think their downfall. Uh-huh. Very edgy. But after people see a downfall, they love to see a rise back up. They love to see.

I don't know about that. If you get canceled, I think you're kind of like, I don't think. think they like to see her come back. I think they do. I think people like arise and a fall. It's part of the story. It's one of the canceled for, I guess. But like,

Jane Dawson's not coming back anytime soon. Who? Shane Dawson? Oh, I thought you said Jane Austen. No, she's dead. Yeah. So she's also not coming back in time soon. And was she canceled?

Was Jane Austen canceled? Probably by the government. Yeah. This is so unhinged. This is the most chaotic interview. We're both going to get fucking canceled. This is the most chaotic interview we've ever had. Tony, how are you going to edit this?

That's a great question. We're going to find out. Yeah. Are you going to quiz your geography? I feel like we kind of just... Oh, yeah. Quiz you on geography. Okay.

Can you, like, name every country in Africa? Not in 60 seconds or however many long. I'm going to forget some of them. That's fine. Then don't. Damn. But then people think I'm a fake. I mean, I don't know the extent of your knowledge.

You said you have a hyperfection of geography. South Africa, Lissotu, Eswitini, Namibia, Botswana, Malawi, Rwanda, Burundi, D.R.C. Republic of the Congo, Angola, Mozambique, not reunion. Reunion's not a country. It's in territory of France. Madagascar, Mauritius, Seychelles, Maros, Somalia, and Somali lands, depending on who you ask. I said Rwanda, Burundi already. Uganda, Kenya, Malawi, Mauritania, Ghana, Kodivar, Togo, Nigeria, Niger, Morocco, Sahwari Arab Democratic Republic, depending on who you ask, don't cancel me Moroccans, um, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, um, one of the other ones, what are the other ones?

Oh, my God, no, no, no, uh, Liberia, um, Sanagall, uh, the Gambia. Um, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, oh my God, I forgot some of them. I forgot some of them. Gabon. Um, this is so good. Shush. Um, And the other ones, I forgot, did I say, did I say Central African Republic already? I don't remember. I don't remember. Did you say Ethiopia? No, I did say the Eritrea as well. And Djibouti and, um.

Djibouti, uh, middle school favorite. You are a child. Anyway, the other ones as well. Is Madagascar a country? I said Madagascar. Okay, great. Yes, Madagascar is a fucking country. Okay.

Yeah. It was, with an island, you never know. They speak a language that derives from like the Polynesian family of, languages because Madagascar was settled. It wasn't originally settled by people from Africa. Like, unless you, well, technically we're all from Africa, whatever the fuck. But it was settled by people from, I think it was like Indonesia or like Micronesia or somewhere. And then they came. So they're, so Malagasy, which is the language of Madagascar is more closely related to like Indonesian and Micronesian and like that kind of family of languages. It's more

closely related to that than actual, the most actual continental African languages. So the idea is that the people who live on Madagascar came there from like Indonesia by by boat and somewhere. I don't know if it was Indonesian specifically. It was somewhere around that somewhere around that part. That's really cool. Yeah, I'd have to double check that. I'm sorry. When I was in college, I went to school with a girl who I assumed was from South Africa because of her accent. Oh. And then part of the way through knowing her, I found out she was from Mauritius. Oh, cool. And I was like, oh, that's the Dodo Island. And she did not like talking about that. No.

These are the people. Like, oh, you guys wiped out the dodo. She went up South Africa to me. Took me a second. Took me a second. I love South Africans. Sadangangangay. But I don't know what I'm saying.

Yeah, love you, San Afrikaans. Thank you for your support. I would like to go back to South Africa. What are you, yeah, what else do you want to do in the future? I mean, again, you've been mine. You've been, you're, you told me before, you're working on your career. What does that mean to you? I'm just like discovering, like, obviously this has been like a wonderful opportunity to be

able to kind of like ride this wave of fame and to have so many people rooting for you. So I'm kind of just like taking aim at everything in the world with like opportunities I may not have had before. Yeah. And kind of like throwing my hand at them and seeing what sticks, right? Drag is one of them, which I really, really like and I'm going to keep doing obviously. But I have some stuff in the works. But I don't want to like say it because of that's pressure.

Well, beyond drag, what has been sticking for you? Like, what have you found? I mean, modeling, obviously. That's how I pay my rent. Yes. Yeah. I like modeling. Very fun, very cool.

Obviously, being an influencer or whatever the fuck is cool. I like it. I like the influencer community. They're all actually really nice people. I thought it would be like, because like watching it from a far when I was little, like influencers, I thought they would be like really fake. But at least the ones I've met are like genuinely sweet and nice people. I like kind and caring.

I thought it would be like a lot more fake than it actually is but maybe that's just because I'm like a little bit of a cynic or whatever because I'm so edgy I mean the fact that having the experience becoming famous in the way that you have you are finding that the community online is like nice to you or the or just they're nice people I know

that I mean in real life yes yeah yeah I don't know like maybe they're talking shit about me behind my bag I don't fucking know if they are that's not my problem I mean I guess it kind of is whatever I wouldn't know so So much about your attitude, I need to adopt myself, just of how to be unbothered and how to, like, tune out, like, people who are, who don't have your best interests at heart. I mean, I don't know. Just get verbally used as a child. You don't.

I don't know if you're allowed to put that in. Maybe don't put that in, but. I think we're allowed to put that in. I don't know if you should put that in. We'll see. Okay. We'll see. But, yeah.

I don't know. I guess, I mean, I was defamed by the name. that after that nothing really means anything so you just take it all with a great of soul yeah people don't like me the fuck am i going to do about that why do i care mm-hmm fucking hell you out of that but like it just kind of get to me when it's like people who are like from my community or like like who are a queer and are on the left and they like i don't like her or like that does sometimes get to me that gets to me like more than the conservatives who are like this he she thinks he's a woman or whatever the fuck. I'd be like, okay, I don't care. That doesn't get to me at all.

But, yeah, it definitely hurts more, well, at all when it's from people who you think would, like, who are like more closer to your demographic, I think. Yeah. Yeah, when it's people who you are in community with or you feel you are, at least online, it's my type of person. It's someone who I have solidarity with. It's someone who I, whose opinion cares about more. Someone whose opinion I care about more. Yeah. When they have a knee-jerk reaction to you. Oh, I don't like them. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it depends on the reason. If people just don't like me because I'm an F or honestly valid. But this one is under your control. But, like, valid. People don't like that both, and that's okay. Yeah. This is an okay form of discrimination.

Honestly. Yeah. Honestly. Honestly. Like, if people are like, I don't like her because she's like, okay. Because what am I supposed to do about that? There's something I can realistically do about that. If they don't like me on that basis, then obviously, like, what am I going to do about that?

There's something I can do about that. So that's fine. Do you think it's possible to truly not care what other people think about you? Because sometimes I'm like, hey, truly, what does it matter? I keep pulling fabric out of this pillow. I'm so sorry. That's fine. It's not my pillow.

It's just some podcast studio garbage. You better read the studio that you're renting from. I'm sure they're going to appreciate that a lot. They don't mind. It's head gum. They can handle it. Yeah, like just like you took the thing off of this because it originally said head gum on this too and then you took it off. Yeah, we took that. Yeah, we should probably wrap it up. You got any, you got to go to the spa. You got to go to the spa.

Yeah, we're going to the spa. I've never been to a spa before. I'm excited. What kind of spa? Korean spa? I don't know. It's a spa. That's all you just know you're going to the spa. Literally all I know, I was given a time and place where friends is like, be here at 345, which probably is 345 right now. So you ought to run. Yeah. But it's like, be here at 345. It's the spa. I'm like, yeah, that's the spa. There's only one spot. There's only one spot that one.

Do you have any parting words of wisdom for the folks at home or for me personally? What should I be doing? I'm sorry for bullying you. Thank you. If you know anyone who could get me on, I'm actually, give them my number. Okay. You know what? I'm kidding.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You know what? You're on this show. Yeah. You're on this show, which by the way, I'm actually. That was a joke. That was a joke.

That was like my thing, that, you know, like the actually thing. I would love to be on him actually, though. That is the team. I love that, too. Yeah, you'd really love to meet iffy. Uh-huh. Got it. I love him.

Yeah. No, he's wonderful. Yeah, he seems like a wonderful. He's wonderful. But this, but that would be for you a step up from here. Oh, okay, okay. I think of everyone at the same equality. Great.

But I don't know. Because, okay. I mean, I met Sasha Colby. Yes. We've established. Yeah. That was what I, this is like, that was like, truly like that was like my hero yeah like my icon i don't feel competitive with sasha colby yeah i don't

think anyone does like um i kind of also at the beginning it was like i did yeah i was like really bad about being star trek like i would meet this person i'd be like wow and i'd just act super fucking weird the entire time and i've been a lot better about that now because i've gotten more used to like meeting people who i like look up to like you but uh well in the past i'm kidding i'm kidding I was like, well, a glimmer of positive attention. Yeah, no, but, yeah, I used to look up to you. Oh. You still.

Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I'll take it. I liked your show. It was cool. I like the show. I don't remember what I was saying at all. That's fine.

Something, something, Sasha Colby. We were talking about, we were talking about your advice to me. Oh, my advice. And you're going on one and I'm actually. Thank you. I mean, not really. but I'm kind of sorry. I'm going to say it to the camera.

Say it to the camera. I'm sorry for both. See how I'm saying it to the camera and all to you. That means I don't mean it. Oh, fuck. All right. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

For the record, I'm kidding. Okay. If I say anything, that seems problematic. It's a joke. I can't tell if you've said anything on this show that we can use. Probably not. It's almost everything you've either said we have to edit out of the show or you've immediately disavowed.

Well, I said all the country. I said most of the countries of Africa. I said most of the countries. Probably use that. It's just going to be, here's Vivian Wilson, naming some of the countries in Africa. It was incredible. It was really great. And it's not that impressive.

I was blown away. Oh. If you get any wrong, people will have fun putting them in the comments and that's engagement. You should probably hire your standards of being blown away. It's not that impressive. It's like 54 names. And I didn't even get all of them. Okay, well, I've had a fucking blast talking to you.

Thank you for coming on the show. Sorry for bullying you. Also, sorry to blue sky. I didn't mean that. I mean everything I say about blue sky. This guy's actually, I didn't show. I don't love Blue Sky. I don't love Blue Sky. I go on there because that's where Jamel Bowie posts, and that's the only... All my friends post are Blue Sky. I don't anymore anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I think, honestly, there's kind of like a war between Blue Sky and Threads. I honestly think Blue Sky is going to win out.

Cool. And I'm always saying that because Threads didn't send me PR. Maybe if you send me PR, it'd be a bigger advocate for your website. Maybe they sent you an hourglass, an ominous hourglass. Yeah. And I am the Queen of Threads, though. Yeah. That's the title I totally didn't just get myself. It's like being, uh, that's like, threads is like a mall. So it means, it means you. You're like the queen of the food court. That's how it shows. How is threads like a mall? Because it's such a corporate environment. It's like a very, it's like very, you know, Mark Zuckerberg, like meta.

Like we've made it. Isn't that like literally every social media platform ever except before you can? I mean, Blue Sky is like a little bit more chaotic. It's like a weirder place, you know? Mastodon is like this bizarre DIY project. Oh, everyone forgets about Mastodon. People keep trying to get me to join Mastodon. I'm already on Threads on Blue Sky.

I can't do a third one. Did you hear about like Adobe being bullied off of a blueie? guy. It was the funniest thing ever. What happened? Because Adobe's been like pushing board with like the AI thing. Fuck AI. I don't like it. It's horrible. I'm objectively correct. Agree. Yeah. And then Adobe

tried to join that. And people were so sick of their shit. Also, but like the prices because Adobe is like notorious for being like impossibly cancel and charging an exorbitant amounts of money because they kind of have an monopoly or whatever. So they literally got bullied off a blue sky. They tried

to make like an account to do like the little corporate posts that all of them do and the comments were so bitriolic that they actually got like bullied off of the platform it was amazing it was so fun to watch but i'm like that's going to be me one day are you going to be the bully or are you going to be bullied off of blue sky for your horrible business practices i'm going to be bullied off of something at some point i'd probably like i'm probably going to get canceled at some point i don't know what it's for well you've bullied me off of my own show well yeah we're still on it i'll see if i'm back next week or if you're hosting yeah

I know where you live. Fucking terrifying. Vivlinous. Vivaleness. Thank you so much for being here, Vivian. Go to the spa. Yeah, I got to go to the spa. Is I actually allowed to leave now?

Yeah, leave. Get the fuck out of here. Get the fuck out of here. Why are you boys? Give me a hug. Give me a hug. That was great. Well, thank you once again to Vivian for coming on the show.

I hope you enjoyed that chaotic interview as much as I did. a fucking blast. You can go follow her at Vivlinus anywhere you get your social media. And of course, if you want to support the show directly, you can do so on Patreon. Head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover. Five bucks a month gets you every episode ad free for 15 bucks a month.

I will read your name in the credits. This week I want to thank Callan. Hey, look a distraction. Uber Elder. Avaro Eggburger, Tracy, Aaron Harmony, Joseph Mode, Rodney, Pattenham, Greg 0692, Marcella Johnson, and Matthew Bertelsen, aka the bunkmeister. If you'd like me to read your name or silly username at the end of the show, head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover once again.

And of course, if you want to come see me on the road in Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Brea, Tacoma, Spacan, Des Moines, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Washington, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have a New York date coming up soon as well. No, nothing official yet, but head to Adamconover.net for all those tickets. Would love to see you out there. Thank you once again to Sam Rodman and Tony Wilson, my producers. everybody here at HeadGum for making the show possible. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time on Factually.

We're going to bring you a story about a mobster. Some you've heard of, some you definitely haven't, but all of them are going to help explain why America is like this. See, the mob explains all sorts of things, from milk expiration dates to why we got into Cuba, to Las Vegas. Gay bars. Who knew? Who knew?

The mobs involved. All that and more. Subscribe to the outfit wherever you get your podcasts. And watch video episodes on YouTube. New episodes every Thursday.