Factually! with Adam Conover - What Happened in Hong Kong? with Victoria Hui

Episode Date: August 11, 2021

In just a few years, the Chinese government has wiped out the political freedoms once promised to Hong Kong. How did this happen, and what is next for the city? On the show this week to help answer these questions is Notre Dame professor and Hong Kong native Victoria Hui. Check out her twitter @victoriatinbor and learn more about Hong Kong's fight to keep its autonomy at https://hkdc.us/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So if all of that sounds good, if you want a big box of delicious snacks like this for yourself, use the code factually for $15 off your first order at Bokksu.com. That's code factually for $15 off your first order on Bokksu.com. I don't know the way. I don't know what to think. I don't know what to say. Yeah, but that's alright. Yeah, that's okay. I don't know anything. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Conover. Thank you so much for joining the podcast once again to listen to some astonishing new perspectives from experts from around the world. Human knowledge, it's my greatest pleasure to learn from them, and it's my great pleasure to bring the, I'd like to talk about a topic that, you know, this would be one of the biggest news stories in the world if it weren't for COVID-19 and everything else that's happening around the world. It's something that's gotten a fair amount of attention, but maybe not quite enough, especially in this country. And I'd really love to shine a light on it and give you a little 101 on what exactly is going down and why it is so important. So let me start with my own personal experience. You know, a couple of years ago, I had the pleasure of traveling to Hong Kong

and, you know, travel, as I'm sure you know, is wonderful. It's a really wonderful thing to be able to do. I was privileged to be able to do it. When you travel, you know, you get new perspectives about the world. You can start to understand a place on the ground level in a way that you can't until you see it with your own eyes. And I was transfixed by Hong Kong. It is one of the most unique and special cities in the world. And a lot of that is because of its completely unique history. See, Hong Kong as a city was ceded to the United Kingdom by China after the first opium war in 1842, and it was ruled by the British for over a century. And in that time, it transformed into a megacity and a major node of global finance.

And also during that time, the rest of China, the Chinese mainland, became ruled by the Chinese Communist Party in the 20th century, while Hong Kong was ruled by the British. And as a result, Hong Kong developed a completely different civil society and political culture than the rest of mainland China. Hong Kong became more capitalistic than the mainland. It had its own legal system. The judges there literally wear wigs as though they're British. And it eventually evolved a more democratic system of government with rights to free expression, what we would think of as First Amendment rights here in the U.S., and rights to assembly, and some measure of democratic rule. Now, none of that is to whitewash the incredibly destructive legacy

of colonialism. Okay. Colonialism is very, very bad, but the unique civil society and political culture of Hong Kong is incredibly special. And it's something that the people there are very, very proud of, but the unique political culture and civil society in Hong Kong is very, very special. It's something that the people there are incredibly proud of. And you just feel it when you walk around the city, what a special place it is. But pretty much as soon as I left Hong Kong in early 2019, things there started to change shockingly quickly. See, after the British handed over Hong Kong to China in 1997, the city had an agreement with the mainland government in Beijing that it would continue under a regime known as one country, two systems. This would allow Hong Kong to keep its separate, more democratic, freer political

system and culture while allowing it to remain a part of Beijing. But over the last two years, the Chinese government has been stamping out this arrangement. Following pro-democracy protests that began in Hong Kong in 2019, the mainland government has been wiping out the freedoms and the uniqueness that defined the city step by step. Pro-democracy newspapers have been forcibly shuttered by the government. Pro-democracy activists and even elected officials have been imprisoned or fled the country because they felt that they would be imprisoned. It's been stunning to watch this happen over the course of just 24 months. You know, I left Hong Kong feeling this is a city that I would love to come back to

again, that I'd love to visit more over the course of my life. But now I know that when I go back, it will be completely different. That so much about what made the place special will be forever changed. How did this happen? And what is next for this city? Well, here today to talk with us about it and help us understand, we have a fantastic guest. Her name is Professor Victoria Hui. She's a professor at Notre Dame and a native of Hong Kong. And she speaks so movingly about what happened in this city and what is happening in China right

now. I was incredibly moved by this conversation, and I hope you will be too. Without further ado, please welcome Professor Victoria Hui. Victoria, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me here. So, look, there's been a lot of news about Hong Kong in the news over the last several years. It's something that I followed as best as I can, but it's a very hard issue to understand if you don't understand the political context, the history of Hong Kong, and why it is such a unique place in the world. There's really no other place like it, sociopolitically. Could you give us a little background on why that is, like what the history of the place is and how we got to today? Yes, the important thing to keep in mind is that

Hong Kong was a British colony. So first of all, after the first Opium War, then the Hong Kong Island was ceded to the United Kingdom for perpetuity. And then after the second Opium War, then across the Victoria Harbor, then the Kowloon Peninsula was also ceded to the United Kingdom. And then in 1898, another piece of territory called the New Territories was leased to the United Kingdom for 99 years. And thus the lease was about to expire in 1997. So this kind of laid down the foundation for the return of Hong Kong to China in 1997. So this kind of laid down the foundation for the return of Hong Kong to China in 1997.

And then how it went was also that when the lease was coming to expire, a lot of the local property developers were like, well, you know, we can't even sell lands anymore because we don't know when the leases are going to come due. What do we do about 1997? And therefore, they pressure the Hong Kong governor to bring up this issue with London and Beijing.

And Margaret Thatcher at the time, she thought that, well, you know, we are running Hong Kong so well, maybe we could actually convince the Chinese leadership that, you know, we're just going to return sovereignty to China, but we'll maintain administration over Hong Kong. Deng Xiaoping at the time had none of that. He said that we're going to take back Hong Kong, whatever you like it, you like it or not, we're just going to do that. And with that kind of like a balance of forces, essentially Beijing had a strong hand.

London had a very weak hand. They finally negotiated a Sino-British Joint Declaration. And throughout the negotiation, Hong Kong people were completely shut out. And the only thing that we learned during those many rounds of negotiation was that, well, this past

round was constructive and useful. And then finally, the Sino-British Joint Declaration was signed in 1984. It came actually as a relief to a lot of people because it promised Hong Kong a one country, two systems model.

It promises Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong. It promises that Hong Kong would continue to enjoy a high degree of autonomy and then all the pre-existing rights and freedoms would remain unchanged. And Deng Xiaoping, this is not in the documents, but Deng Xiaoping would then go around traveling different world capitals saying that,

oh, don't worry, guys. The only thing that's going to change is the change of the flag. Nothing else will change. You guys can continue to live the life that you enjoyed. Because Hong Kong, I want to give a little more context here. Because it was under British rule for so long, an entirely different political culture and really social culture grew up in the city compared to the rest of China. It was a century or more of British rule. And so in many ways, like the the people of Hong Kong became very used to having a very democratic, liberalized, capitalist society.

And so there's a concern, right, when becoming part of mainland China of that. Hey, what's going to happen to the to the culture of this place? Right. You are exactly right. This is why there was so much anxiety. And I still remember in the early 1980s when the two sides were negotiating, Hong Kong people panicked. And I remember seeing that there were bank runs in Hong Kong. People were wondering what, you know, the future was going to hold.

This is why when the Sino-British Joint Declaration came out, it was a big relief for many people. Of course, Hong Kong people were not so stupid. They were a bit skeptical if Beijing was going to keep all the promises. But then, if you're not given a choice, you're not really given any say on what you know, what is possible and what is not acceptable. But this is the only thing, take it or leave it.

And then so many people, including myself at the time, was like, okay, you know, this is what we have to live with. And at the same time, also that joint declaration promised that Hong Kong people would be able to rule Hong Kong. And that essentially also gave rise to this Hong Kong democracy movement. Well, the future is going to be written by us. And so in the mid-1980s, there was also this flourishing of civil society and political groups trying to really write the future because the British Joint Declaration would have to be turned into a basic law, Hong Kong's mini constitution, but promulgated by Beijing only. I should note that Hong Kong by that time enjoyed a lot of freedoms, but not quite democracy.

So this is why the emergence of a democracy movement really stimulated by this British Joint Declaration. A lot of people would say, you know, the British, London, you are so hypocritical. Now you keep talking about democracy, but you didn't really give Hong Kong people democracy. I want to add that every step of the way, whenever Britain wanted to introduce

some measure of democracy to Hong Kong, Beijing would object. So immediately in the mid 80s, Hong Kong people were mobilizing to try to get democracy because people already understood at the time that the freedoms and rights that Hong Kong people

were enjoying at the time would not really be protected without democracy. So the United Kingdom began to introduce representative governments in Hong Kong, but then Beijing objected and then the UK backed down.

So to me, it sounds like the really important part is that Hong Kong had a very distinct political culture at this point, that there were these freedoms, rights, a civil society. I assume you had professors writing about the importance of democracy and free speech. You have young people who want a free society. You've got a free press. You've got a civil society. And that was something that folks in Hong Kong were what? Was worried about making sure it was protected when this agreement is signed saying, hey, in 50 years, mainland China is going to completely absorb the city. Well, so one thing also is important is that Deng Xiaoping himself was asked many times why for 50 years only?

Why one can treat a systems model for 50 years? You know, a lot of people also say that, well, if, you up with Hong Kong after 50 years so that there will be no more need to protect Hong Kong from the mainland system. So in the mid-1980s, the mood from Beijing was all reassuring. So then another thing that's really monumental was the Tiananmen

pro-democracy movement and the crackdown in 1989. The basic law was promulgated by Beijing itself in 1990. But the year before, there was Tiananmen in China. The Tiananmen Square incident.

And the brutal crackdown all around China. There were a lot of students and activists and just young people protesting and trying to ask for some liberal political changes in China. And then the crackdown was very, very harsh. In Beijing, the People's Liberation Army rolled out the tanks to just crush the people. And then in the rest of China, there was also a very brutal crackdown. And at the time

in Hong Kong, before the crackdown, Hong Kong people poured into the street to support the protesters in China. Donated money, donated a lot of those camping tanks that people were using at Tiananmen Square and elsewhere.

And then after the crackdown, the mood in Hong Kong was, if they could do this to their own people today, what would they do to us? So there was a slogan, Today's Tiananmen, Tomorrow's Hong Kong. That gave further inspiration and impact to Hong Kong people to step up for the call for democracy. Again, Hong Kong people from day one understood that without democracy, the freedoms that they enjoy then would not really be protected in the future. Beijing learned the opposite lesson. They became so fearful that Hong Kong was going to be a subversive base to overthrow the Chinese Communist Party. And therefore, from day one, they were like, you know, we are just going to really stop any call for democracy along the way.

And so we mentioned earlier that the UK, because, you know, you're going to, you promise the Assignment of British Joints Declaration promises Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong. So we have to prepare for Hong Kong people to rule themselves. And they try to introduce representative democracy. But a lot of those efforts were really shut down by Beijing. And so it did happen, but in very, very baby steps, just like, you know, a very small percentage

of seats for upward election. Every, and just with very, very gradual progress over the years. Well, so tell me about the pro-democracy movement that arose. I mean, you know, in the last few years, this is decades after the joint declaration saying that there'd be one country, two systems, where Hong Kong and mainland China would have separate political systems for 50 years. A few decades into that, this massive pro-democracy movement arises, some really inspiring protests, I felt. What caused those protests to arise at that time?

Yes. So a lot of people, especially the international observers, really noticed the massive outpouring of resistance in the street in 2019. People were protesting against an extradition bill that would have allowed anyone who happened to be in Hong Kong, on Hong Kong territory, to be extradited to China.

So at that time, that was pretty much for a lot of people. The rule of law was the only pillar of freedom left standing to protect Hong Kong people from the mainland system. Now, the law was very scary to many people. So if you were to just happen to be transiting in the Hong Kong airport and somehow Beijing said that I want you, the Hong Kong police would then just take you could take you across the border. And Hong Kong people were so fearful. And they would try you under a different legal system, right? Because if you were tried in Hong Kong, you'd be tried with according to one set of laws and guidelines and judges. But then if you're extradited to the mainland, it's a completely different legal system. had actually been bought up by Beijing because, you know, some of them were loyalists

and they got promoted, whereas those who insisted on professional standards were sidelined or marginalized or dismissed or they retired, they were filled by loyalists. But for the most part, most of the judges by 2019 were still very professional. And so when you do a subject, if you are subject to the mainland, quote-unquote, justice system, then it's just the party that calls the shot, whoever the party was. Essentially, you can be detained without trial. You can be detained for a very long time. You are certain to be convicted. And so people were very fearful.

And so people were very fearful. And then what is also important is why in 2019 people call that the last stand. Because all these other pillars of freedom had actually been eroded over the previous two decades, since 1997. So the free press, by that time, there was still one print pro-democracy newspaper but the main TV stations had been people could use the term harmonized in a way that the managers

became very pro-Beijing or a lot of the ownership was just really bought by Chinese interest and then universities so professors tend to be very professional, tend to insist on their independence. But then universities also began to hire a lot of pro-Beijing scholars. And most of all, that university councils were stacked by all of those loyalists

because it is always the chief executive, Hong Kong's top executive, who appoints members to these councils. And then we mentioned earlier about the very slow, gradual progress toward democracy, that there were direct elections and then people did have

some partial right to vote, but the legislative council was deciding the way that pro-democracy voices would always be in the minority, that they could make a lot of noises, but they would not be able to actually make any real changes. And they would not even have enough votes to block any kind of government bills. And so it was in that situation,

at the same time, there were also a lot of, so we talked about civil society. We tend to think of civil society, as you know, these pockets of autonomy, the independence of government authority, they really get organized to, you know, make the society work better to advocate democratic norms, except that Beijing also was promoting

a lot of these pro-racism non-government organizations. Right. And whenever there were pro-democracy protests, you would have counter-protests by these pro-racism groups. And so Hong Kong really was basically subject to pretty early on slow motion erosion. But then there was also this outbreak of the umbrella movements that also really made it to international news in 2014. And after that, Beijing really stepped up its erosion of Hong Kong's freedom. So in 2019, everything just came to this boiling point. Why we saw so many people out in the street

and why it was so explosive, why it lasted for so long. Well, I can imagine that if you were a young person growing up in Hong Kong, this might be very frightening. I mean, when I visited Hong Kong, I felt I really related to the city. It reminded me a lot of New York in many ways, where it's a very vibrant place, like really boisterous civil society, media everywhere, people, businesses, et cetera, capitalist hub, a big center of finance, and also, you know, a huge number of educated people and a really strong civil society. And if that's the society that you grow up in, and, but you know, hold on a second,

in just a couple decades, we're going to become part of this other country. Like I, right now, I've got a Hong Kong passport, but pretty soon I'm not going to have that. Like right now I was taught by a professor who taught me about, you know, freedom of the press or things like that. Taught me those values, but, oh, that professor was just fired and they're replaced with somebody else. Like that slow erosion, you'd be like, I'm going to be living in a different country than I grew up in, in a couple of years. I imagine it feeling that way. And that's a very kind of twilight zone, kind of strange, strange feel. I can understand why one would protest. But at the same time, I also know the mainland government is not going to budge on

those things. So that's really a recipe for a huge conflagration. You are quite right. So for people in my generation, I was a teenager when I watched on TV the signing of the Sign of British Joint Declaration in 1984. For us, 50 years, 2047 meant like, you know, it was so distant because we knew that we weren't going to live to that day. But for young people who grew up under, after the handover, after 1997, they are fighting for the future. And 2047 would mean something that, you know, they would still be in the prime. And this is why young people have been at the forefront of the first umbrella movement of 2014 and also the anti-extradition protest of 2019.

In fact, even before that, a lot of people are also familiar with, for example, Joshua Wong. Joshua Wong, there's a documentary about him called Teenager Versus Superpower. He came of age, he began his activism when he was barely 15 because the government wanted to impose patriotic education on Hong Kong. And he was like, we have to fight for our future.

And he got together with some other young people. And very sadly, today, Joshua Wong and his other buddies, especially Ennis Chow, they are all in jail. Wow. Well, tell me about what we've seen happen over the last year. Because as much press as the protests got in 2019, and like I said, very inspiring to see those protests happen and to see people take power that way. But what's happened over the last year has been very disheartening. And if you could tell me about those events.

Yes. So just as what you said earlier, that, you know, for a lot of people, we grew up with thinking that we live in a city that should enjoy its autonomy, that should have Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong, there should be one country, two systems, that there should be, you know, all the pre-existing rights and freedoms, so should continue. But no, last year at 11 p.m. on June 30th, Beijing promulgated a national security law and imposed it on Hong Kong. national security law and imposed it on Hong Kong. And from then on, people get arrested for speech, for just essentially criticizing the government. And I mentioned earlier that Joshua Wong and Ellen's child, they have been arrested. They actually arrested and detained and sentenced for actually crimes

that they committed, technically, you know, quote-unquote crimes committed during the 2019 protests. Because in Hong Kong, if you want to protest, you have to get a no-objection permit from the police. Wow. The police can render any protest illegal by just not granting the no objection permit. And so they are arrested and sentenced under those draconian colonial era laws. But at the same time, they are also subject to the national security law. They have been charged with subversion of state power.

Some people have also been charged with collusion with foreign forces. And under the national security law, essentially, Hong Kong has just become like the rest of China. And all the pre-existing independent judicial system that we talked about, you know, people entitled to presumption of innocence until proven guilty, that people should be given bail if they, you know, before they get their sentence, before they are convicted, that people are entitled to lawyers. So a lot of these actually are denied. People who are charged under the national security law, many of them do not even get bail. And many of them have been just detained for months and without knowing when they are even going to actually

go through the judicial procedure. And also that in a year's time, Hong Kong's only pro-democracy print newspaper, the Apple Daily, was forced to shut down on June 24th. That was the most shocking news to me to see. I mean, there'd been plenty of shocking news, you know, pro-democracy protesters being arrested, pro-democracy legislators resigning in protest. legislators resigning in protest, but then to have a newspaper shut down for being a pro-democracy newspaper, for the crime of having that point of view, the paper being shut down for that reason, and editorial writers, reporters being arrested. That's very dark. It's very dark events. That's very dark.

It's very dark events. Yes. And the Apple Daily has always been a sore in Beijing's eyes because through all those years, whenever there were protests, the Apple Daily would have extensive coverage. And very often they would even have inserts that would be like protest slogans. So you buy the Apple Daily and then you can go to protest just when you open up the center page. And then at the same time, they were also a very effective mobilizer. And because it was the only

pro-democracy print paper. And so everything else, the owners of all these other media organizations all got smart. Either they sold their interest to Chinese interests or they learned that, you know, you self-censor yourself. But the Apple Daily was the only one that refused to do so. So Jimmy Lai, the publisher, was arrested already last year. And then recently that top executives are also arrested. And first they were granted bail, and now they are denying bail.

And another striking case of mass arrest was that last year, there was an effort to coordinate for a scheduled elections, originally scheduled for early September 2020. And people were trying to coordinate the votes. They organized a primary, quote-unquote primary, basically it's just really coordination. It's not done by the government, but essentially all the pro-democracy candidates,

they were interested in running for elections, and they wanted to make sure that they would not run against each other so that they could actually win the most seats. They organized a primary in July, and everyone involved got arrested. Wow. Or if they didn't get arrested, they went into exile. And the government said that that amounted to subversion of state power. Now, if you try to run for election and those elections actually provide a form in the basic law promulgated by Beijing, why is that subversion of state power?

Essentially, this just tells us that Beijing does not tolerate any kind of dissent. And after that, so you can run for office, you can participate in an election, as long as you're on the right side. That's all it means. Exactly. And what is really scary is not just that a lot of people, I think about 130 people are charged under the national security law for subversion of state power, for collusion with foreign forces, for committing quote-unquote terrorism. And the definition of terrorism is so broad that it can include, for example, there's this case on the court now that someone was just riding a motorbike and with a flag, liberate Hong Kong revolution of our times.

And because the police were hitting something, throwing something to hit at him. And then he swerved and hit a few police officers. And the Justice Department accused him of committing terrorism. So this is what terrorism means in Hong Kong. And on top of a lot of that, so not just that those who participated in the primaries were arrested and denied bail,

most of them denied bail, the government also postponed, quote-unquote, postponed the election, the scheduled election. And now when they said that we are going to allow elections, they also completely re-changed the electoral rules so that you also have the national security units of the Hong Kong police to vet every single candidate. Wow.

And so there's no way that anyone with any slight leaning toward the pro-democracy camp could go through this vetting process. And on top of the legislative council, in November 2019, at the height of the entire tradition protest, the district council elections were held as scheduled. And all the pro-democracy candidates, most of them won, and they won in a landslide, controlling most of the local district councils. And it was in that background that the pro-democracy voices were optimistic that they could actually do better with the upcoming legislative council election. But that also meant that Beijing said, wait,

we're not going to allow any elections at all. So they changed the rules for the legislative council election. They arrested, detained and arrested and denied bail to all of those pro-democracy candidates. They also made district councillors make a pledge and say that we are going to disqualify all of those who are not loyal who are not patriotic and people were so scared and they also spread this information that whoever gets disqualified you're going to have to pay back all the compensation and all the expenses from day one which will amount to two million Hong Kong dollars but for a lot of these people who have no a lot of these people who have no, a lot of these are just really young people,

some of these elected district councillors, which even university students, they have no money. So essentially forcing people to go bankrupt. With that, a massive wave of resignations took place only in the last two weeks as well. So Hong Kong

in all aspects have been turning to just like the rest of China now. And this is terribly sad, I think, because, I mean, first of all, the idea of having a quote unquote election where if you run on the side of democracy, of wanting more democratic reforms, you're literally thrown in jail, arrested and thrown in jail. That's not an election in any way, shape, or form. But also to see so many people in Hong Kong take the risk of running, take the risk of protesting, and be arrested for it, and to say this is important to us and to have a mass movement in the streets of, you know, so many people. I mean, how many people total protested? Are there any figures?

Yes. So on June 9th, 2019, 1 million protested. 1 million. And Hong Kong's population is about 7.4 million. Beyond that, so a week later, 2 million protested. 2 million! And then on August 18th, about 1.7 million protested. Wow. Now, when people say that, you know,

organizers exaggerated these figures, we have a very concrete figure of people who voted in the district council elections in November 2019, and the number of people who voted for pro-democracy candidates. And that's about 1.7. the district council elections in November 2019, and the number of people who voted for pro-democracy candidates. And that's about 1.7, 1.6 something. So 1.6 something, essentially more than one fifth of the population. So, and those are people who are doing so knowing they're taking

a risk to their wellbeing to do so. So you can imagine how many people are in support, but didn't feel that they could join the protests or make those votes. But so that's a mass movement. That's an incredibly large mass movement to have one fourth of the one fourth or one fifth of the population of any city do anything is an enormous mass movement. So to see that and to still see it be so brutally repressed by the mainland government is very sad, especially when there's no, it sounds like there's no justification for the actions that the mainland government took other than to simply squelch that political culture of freedom and democracy and let everyone know this is not welcome. This is not something we're going to allow exist. There's no terrorism. There's no other country asserting itself. This is it's an overt attempt to squash a democratic movement and nothing else, is it not?

You are absolutely correct. And in a way that the brutality, the harshness of the crackdown, the national security law, the electoral changes, the massive arrest without bail, I think that they all amounts to the fact that Beijing is very worried about, you know, it's not just about the 130 who are already arrested under the national security law. And also on top of that, over 10,000 people were arrested during the anti-extradition protest from beginning from June 2019 to early 2020. So it's not enough to just put all of these people behind bars that, you know, known frontliners and known protesters. And some of them actually got arrested just because they happened to be walking past a protest site. Wow. But they want to know that the entire society that, you know, actually a significant portion of the population supports the protest.

And this is what I would call a war on the society, a war on the people. And this is what I would call a war on the society, a war on the people. Why on top of arresting these people, on top of arresting pretty much the entirety of the opposition camp, but also make sure that these, you know, 1.7, 2 million people do not even have the right to choose whoever they want anymore in the future. And more than that, because these people, you know, they are pro-democracy and therefore we are going to silence them by, you know, if you say anything on Facebook, if you say anything on social media,

if you teach your students in classes, anything that support democracy. And the Hong Kong Youth Students Union, that's kind of expressed some support For the guy who stabbed a police officer And then killed himself On July 1st A few weeks ago

And just to express some sympathy And all of these are not allowed And just two days ago They arrested even people Who drew students' cartoons Explaining the entire extradition protest using the wolf ad to represent Beijing and

the sheep to represent Hong Kong people. So you do not think Beijing does not even allow any kind of dissent because they want to completely whitewash what happened and make sure that Hong Kong, the majority of Hong Kong people would then turn to loving the motherland, loving the party.

Wow. Well, I have so many more questions for you about this. I want to talk about the international response, and I want to talk about where Hong Kong goes from here. But we have to take a really quick break. We'll be right back with more Victoria Hoi. I don't know anything. I don't know anything. I don't know anything. Okay, we're back with Victoria Hoy.

So we discussed how the mainland government's repression of democratic culture in Hong Kong, how brutal and shocking it is. And this to me is the kind of issue that should really, I think, like animates people often in the United States. But I was surprised by how muted the response was, in my view. I, you know, certainly there were a lot of articles in the paper about it. But, you know, I never saw, you know, there weren't a lot of American politicians out banging their fists saying, you know, we have to, you know, protect democracy, right? We have to, you know, encourage, you know, freedom. These are pretty basic American values, right? This is

the values of a liberal, free, civil society that, you know, we've got a whole large segment of the world who claims to stand for those values. And, you know, to me, the response wasn't what I expected. Why do you feel that is? And how does it speak to the relationship between the Chinese government and, you know, the other countries of the world? There are two layers to that question. One is that in a way that China has a lot of economic clout. We have seen that, you know, all these different countries, especially European countries and Asian and Middle East and Latin American countries, they're all beholden to Beijing

because, you know, they are dependent on Chinese investment and also recently Chinese vaccines. And so this is one thing why the international response has been muted. And even in the U.S. that essentially a lot of U.S. businesses, they still think that China is still the future when it comes to making profits. is still the future when it comes to making profits. But with that said, I do want to say that the U.S. response,

especially from the top, well, also with the media, actually has not been that muted because the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, all these main international news organizations have had extensive coverage of what's been going on in Hong Kong since 2019. And also with the terrible news that come out of Hong Kong, just like every other day, every other week, there's been actually ongoing international media attention

to how Hong Kong events are unfolding. At the top, the Congress actually passed the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act in November 2019. It is a revision of the U.S.-Hong Kong Policy Act of 1992. The 1992 law was a response to Deng Xiaoping's promise that Hong Kong is going to, you know, be different. It's going to be a separate system. One country, two systems. And therefore, the U.S. agreed to treat Hong Kong separate from the rest of China for customs purpose and for all the economic trade benefits purpose. And so for a long time, a lot of do-use technologies,

they were banned from exporting from the US to China. They could actually be imported to Hong Kong. But what happened is that Beijing has taken advantage of that. You know, a lot of Chinese companies will set up their operations in Hong Kong, imports do-use technologies to Hong Kong

and then turn around and take them across the border. And then also last year, that's the US Gov. State's department for the first time decertified Hong Kong's autonomy after Beijing announced that it was going to impose

a national security law on Hong Kong even before the actual law was promulgated on June 30th. And then also the United States said we, according to our estimation, officially Hong Kong is no longer an autonomous city because of the transpired there. Right. And then we should also add that the Secretary of State Blinken, in his first ever diplomatic meeting with his counterparts in Anchorage, he brought up Hong Kong, brought up Tibet and Xinjiang, and that got into a shouting match. And then Congress is also looking into a Safe Harbor Act to give asylum and refugee status to people,

to Hong Kong people. And the United Kingdom, actually already in the 1980s, Hong Kong people were lobbying for the UK to grant all Hong Kong people citizenship. In the UK, the UK refused to do that. They agreed to grant only 50,000 passports to basically Hong Kong's elites and top civil servants.

But again, once Beijing announced that it was going to impose a national security law on Hong Kong, Britain opened its door to up to 3 million Hong Kong people with the British national record overseas passport, which until that moment was merely a travel document without any right of abode. Britain said that we're going to change our policy. Whoever is entitled to the British National Bracket Overseas Passport could just come to the UK. You have five years to find a job to settle down and then apply for full citizenship. So the world and Canada is also opening its door. Australia is also opening its door. So I think the world is responding. What happens is that there's just very little the world can do to stop Beijing's very, very increasingly brutal

crackdown on Hong Kong. Yeah, I mean, if you're not going to start a war, it's a difficult thing to intervene in. And the amount of power that the mainland government has can be seen in, I think some of the times that this made the most press in the United States is when we saw American companies, you know, bending to the government's narrative on this, that we, you know, there was the huge controversy with the NBA when an NBA executive tweeted, you know, while a bunch of players were were there in China at the time and you could see the response that, you know, some of the players, you know, were not not willing to, you know, voice support for him or voice support for Hong Kong because some of them had movies that they wanted that were going to come out in China that they needed to do well. And, you know, we've seen, you know, example after example like this that's been very, very disheartening. People and organizations not standing up or, in fact, helping do the or, in fact, helping do the mainland government's job for economic reasons because of the immense power economically that the government has. And that's been disheartening to see. Exactly.

Essentially, Beijing has been really using its economic clout to coerce other countries and also coerce multinational companies. But things are changing. So what I've also been arguing is that Beijing's ideal model for Hong Kong is capitalism without freedom. Beijing wants to take advantage of Hong Kong status as an international financial center, on par, as you mentioned earlier, like New York and London, and at the same time stifling all the freedom. But it seems that, you know, the harsh, very harsh crackdown is going to really hurt this model. Just several days ago, the U.S. government's different departments issued a joint advisory

to U.S. businesses in Hong, that you have to be very careful because the national security law will require that you hand over data. You have to also, you know, if there are sanctions on certain entities, then the employees would be subject to sanctions, would be subject to arrest, even their family members. And in a way that Beijing has been trying to use its economic clout, but by making, forcing a lot of these multinationals companies to choose, you either silence yourself and stand with China, or you stand up to your principles and criticize China. And now that the U.S. government and maybe hopefully some other Western democratic governments would also say, you know, these companies, you cannot have it both ways.

You have to follow our laws as well. And so then maybe, you know, the globalized world is really going to get more and more decoupling because Beijing is making people choose. And at the same time, the U.S. government is also responding by making companies choose. So it seems that Beijing with this very harsh crackdown is really eroding Hong Kong's financial status.

And so that, you know, I would say that, you know, Hong Kong was once on par with London and New York City, but now it's just going to be like Shanghai and Shenzhen. Wow. These are the Chinese cities. That's really, that's really fascinating because my understanding had been that, you know, because I had wondered, hey, why didn't, as soon as the joint declaration was signed,

why didn't the mainland government come in and, you know, do all this on day one, right? Why wait a couple of decades? And my understanding was partially that, well, it's a you know, it's a hub of capitalism that there's all these banks. And this is this is one of the Hong Kong is the place where Western multinationals, you know, come to China. And one of the reasons they do that is because of the more liberalized atmosphere and culture and it's a it's a safe place for their a little bit more understandable place for their uh you know for their western for their european or american employees etc etc and they didn't want to disrupt that system but it sounds like they've said okay well i guess we just need to disrupt it like we like we'll take the consequences of the crackdown and there will be consequences. Well, so what happened in the 1980s was that Beijing needed Hong Kong at the time.

At the time, Beijing was still basically just trying to catch up with the U.S. But now, you know, 30 years later, China thinks that it has caught up with the U.S. Economically, militarily, even in terms of importance in their standing with international organizations. China controls a number of U.N. organizations and commissions.

And so, therefore, Beijing feels that, you know, we can kill Hong Kong, but you guys, you know, you guys actually want to do business still in Shanghai and Shenzhen. And in fact, so the AmCham, American Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong, their latest survey they did was that 42% of the respondents said that they were thinking of moving out of Hong Kong. Now, this is a very high percentage. But what is also striking is that 58% continue to think that, you know,

they wanted to continue the business in Hong Kong. And several days ago, after the U.S. government issued this advisory, the M-Charm and a lot of U.S. businesses in Hong Kong were like, well, we don't really need this advisory. You're making things harder for us. Wow. So there's a lot of businesses that are still willing to like look the other way or not speak up and say, OK, we don't really care about the repression. We're just going to continue making some money here.

Or they try to have the cake and eat it too. try to have the cake and eat it too. You know, we do want to stand up for, you know, the good cause, but at the same time, making money, being accountable to our shareholders, just as important. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the future, because that's certainly something that I have a lot of questions about. You know, when I visited Hong Kong, I went to, I forget the name of the museum. There's a museum, I think it's called the hong kong museum or something that's a museum about the city and it was one of

the most remarkable museums i've ever been to because it was a museum about the history of the place from prehistory to now it's like before humans hong kong was there were dinosaurs or whatever and then there were prehistoric humans. And then, you know, I was, I've never been to a museum that went all the way from prehistory to today of a single spot. And it gave me such a view of how special a place it is, right? That, you know, because of the history of British rule, which I'm sure there are many negative things that you could say about, but because of that very unique history, a completely unique culture sprung up in the place that, you know, I really loved experiencing and have thought a lot about since. And it's, like I said, very saddening to see, you know,

to see this happen. Do you think that, you know, very unique culture will persist? Or do you think that Hong Kong is going to be fundamentally changed now as a place? And what do you think about the future of the democracy movement? Hong Kong is a place, as we mentioned before, Hong Kong's status as an international financial center on par with New York City and London, that's going to be gone. And Hong Kong as a place that used to have its own separate judicial system, its palace of freedom, that is gone. Hong Kong is just going to be incorporated into, people already call Hong Kong the Southern Shenzhen. Because Beijing also has this policy to incorporate Hong Kong into the Greater Bay Area. So Hong Kong is just basically as the place that we used to know it is going to be gone.

But Hong Kong as a place. So what happens in Hong Kong is a lot of these things are just going down the drain. But Hong Kong as a set of values. Hong Kong as, you know, this idea that we fight for freedom and democracy that persists. So even if teachers cannot really talk about the protests or anything that is critical of the government anymore in the classroom, but parents continue to talk to their kids at home, and people continue to light the fire in their hearts or, you know, in their own home. And I remember talking to people from the former Czechoslovakia and I said, you know, how did you know about all of these things about the Prague Spring, for example? They said, because our parents, the relatives and family would always just keep the fire alight. So, so long as people inside Hong Kong and outside are keeping the fire alight,

I think that there is future. And at the same time, these days, we are also seeing a lot of people who can afford to leave. They are leaving. There are so many sad, teary goodbyes at the airport and at dinner, good farewell dinners. So Hong Kong people are also caring and spreading this message. So the Hong Kong diaspora is really growing exponentially and they are not keeping quiet. You know, unlike previous migrants, they would just, you know, get a job and make money and shut up.

We don't care about anything. But these people are very active in diaspora politics, lobbying their respective governments. So, for example, I myself co-founded the Hong Kong Democracy Council, and we are very active in lobbying Congress when it comes to, one, the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, and two, the Safe Harbor Act to provide refugee and asylum status to Hong Kongers. So this is one layer. Another layer that you talk about the museum. I think this is a great thing. I'm so glad that you went to the museum because one thing is that Chinese like to say that we Chinese have 5,000 years of history. This is what they go back to, you know, basically kind of like, you know, when the first day even be into prehistory time. It's this idea that, you know, we have this long history. But most importantly, the last exhibits still retain a lot of information on the diversity and the uniqueness of Hong Kong's culture.

And it also is a crossroads between China and the rest of the world. And also this hybrid cultural piece of land that was simultaneously Chinese and British. What is happening now is that the museum is closed. And before it was closed, people stood in long lines to try to see the last, to take a last glimpse of this basic, this, you know, still the latest version of Hong Kong history. Because everyone knows that when they reop the latest version of Hong Kong history. Really? Because everyone knows that when they reopen the museum of Hong Kong history,

everything's going to be changed. It's going to be glorification of the Communist Party. It's going to be, you know, and also the Hong Kong used to be this site where, for example, Dr. Sam Yat-sen who launched his revolution against the last Qing dynasty, Hong Kong was always this refuge of revolutionaries. People are fearful that a lot of that,

all those different chapters of history that today's Beijing doesn't like, will be all erased. This is part of this imposition of patriotic education and erasure of Hong Kong's uniqueness. That makes me so sad. I hate to be the white American guy who's like, I visited a place once and I feel like I understand it, but you know, that, uh, that museum

really had a really strong impact on me. Um, and the fact that, yeah, the fact that it is closed now and isn't going to reopen the same way. I didn't know that until you said that that's, um, that's terribly sad. Cause it was, it was a very beautiful, uh, very beautiful thing. I mean, I love your, I love your optimism about, about how, you know, the fire will stay lit. And I believe that. Um, but you know, this story is, it contradicts the story that we like to tell in America about democracy and freedom, which is, you know, our version of the story is when people rise up and you have a mass movement, you know, that's how democracy starts. You know, that's how freedom flourishes. And, you know, around the world, that story has not gone the way that we think it should. You know, if you talk about the Arab Spring, you know, there's other examples around the world.

I think this is this is one of them. It's I don't know. It's it's it's hard to it's hard to feel heartened by it. It's easy to be to be depressed by it. I think you're quite right that a lot of Hong Kongers, whether they're still in Hong Kong or outside, I think Hong Kong people as a whole experience systemic post-traumatic syndrome. And many people actually suffer from depression. A lot of friends are like this.

And so it is definitely true. But what is interesting is that I think it's not just in Hong Kong, in the rest of the world, but also in the U.S. as well, that the struggle for democracy, one thing is that it's not just about bottom-up pressures. It also matters what regime leaders choose to do and how they react to bottom-up pressures. Because change always basically is both top-down and bottom-up. And I think this is something that we actually have witnessed in American politics as well.

And therefore, you know, in a way that, you know, we should be a bit more sober about the prospect of democracy. This also means that why, you know, a lot of people are kind of shocked about, you know, the state of democracy in the United States is because, you know, very often that people would take for granted that, you know, you have a lot of people with the right to vote, you know, the state of democracy in the United States is because, you know, very often that people would take for granted that, you know, you have a lot of people with the right to vote. Of course, if democracy is stable, it is going to be solid and safe. But no, change can come from the bottom up. Change can come from the top down. Yeah. And it's a fair, it's a fair example that, you know, the United States is becoming, has become less democratic over my lifetime. And according to objective measures, that's the case.

And certainly over the events of the last few years, and it's not something that we can take for granted. You know, the movie version where people go pump their fists in the air and then everything is okay because we all raised our voices is too simple. And it doesn't, you can't, you can't just expect that it's going to work and take it for granted. You have to actually pay attention to the specific systems, to the real systems that we build and to what leaders do. Yeah. Are you, are you you still you still remain optimistic despite despite all the all that backsliding that we've seen, not just in Hong Kong, but also in the United States, you're still optimistic. Well, so I'm optimistic about American politics because it seems to be self-correcting because, you know, it's it's self-correcting in the sense that people if people willing to defend it, I think it's self-correcting in the sense that people, if people are willing to defend it, I think it is self-correcting. When it comes to Hong Kong, so this is why sometimes I wear two hats, right?

One is that I am a political scientist. And so I see the writings on the wall. And as a political scientist, it is really hard to be optimistic. But I'm also from Hong Kong. I need to believe that, you know, we just have to keep up with the fight, we keep up with the struggle. And then one of these days, things are going to get better. Because if you have no hope, you think that, you know, whatever you do is going to be futile then you're not going to try now Aung San Suu Kyi is um isn't you know a controversial figure but I remember her saying

something before that you know so long as we do not give up we haven't failed yeah and the the thing that is so inspiring about uh the people of Hong Kong is how many people have not given up, how many people stood up to fight for their future. And, you know, as many laws are being passed about what those people can and cannot say and what newspapers they can and cannot read, like in their hearts they still are not giving up i have to expect um and that's uh that's a very very beautiful thing uh yeah yeah so so then we i have to you know basically someone from hong kong and also because i've been criticizing the national security law and because i have formed a lobby group oh just, just today the Hong Kong Democracy Council was formally sanctioned by Beijing

for an statement. Yes. Congratulations. That's a great honor. Yes, exactly. This is what we said. We're doing the right thing. And so while even if the situation in Hong Kong is going to continue to go downhill, and I think that

it is, especially because Hong Kong has become just a police state. We have the police who are in command. They basically control the government. And at the same time, they are persecuting all the opposition leaders while sheltering people who are perishing. But yet at the same time, there are still things that we could do, providing shelter to people who want to leave Hong Kong and keeping a close watch, you know, like this podcast. And as you said, you know, the more Americans and the rest of the world pay attention to Hong Kong, at least Beijing would think twice. I've been saying that, you know, why Beijing could do

such horrible thing in Xinjiang was the world just kept looking the other way. And so if the world refuses to look the other way and continue to support Hong Kong, I think that, you know, things may continue to go bad, but at the same time, there's still hope there. Yeah. And we haven't even been talking about the things that happened in Xinjiang, because it's an entirely different podcast episode. And I don't want to, I don't want to omit, omit that, but I love that message. So if for folks listening who want to look, it's very difficult to, to, to be able to have an effect sitting in America on effect on, on events like these, but for folks who want to be supportive or at the very least want to learn more,

what are some next steps that they can take? I do talk a lot and get interviewed a lot. So if people could just follow me on Twitter, Victoria, I think it's Victoria Ting Bo Hui. Google my name. We'll put the link in the show description, too. Okay. And then also follow the work of the Hong Kong Democracy Council. And we got this, you know, as you said, this is zero approval.

And and also when a company when an American company looks the other way or doesn't stand up for, you know, the values of democracy, you can yell at them. I think you should yell at them on social media. And I'm always appreciate, you can yell at them. I think you should yell at them on social media. And I'm always appreciative. I try to yell at them and I appreciate it when other people do too, that, you know, that is a line that we have, you know, companies that are in America, do business in America, are doing business in China as well. And, you know, they respond to pressure from people here. And that's, that's at least some way that we can, you know, make our voices heard to some degree. I think, I think this is a very, very excellent

point is that because a lot of these companies like Nike just recently said that, you know, we love the China market. Even Nike has, you know, if American consumers make a point that you either make money in China, or you make money from Americans and the rest of the democratic world. You have to make this choice. And then I think Nike will make the right choice. Yeah. And I agree. And the same goes for American movie stars, American, like we, you know, we can't have it both ways. We have to people have to take a stand is one of the very first things we need to take a stand individually. And we need to ask those who we look up to to take a stand as well. Well, Victoria, I can't thank you enough for coming on to talk about it and for the good work that you do and for for giving us all this this overview. I yeah this is, this has been wonderful. I can't thank you enough. Thank you. Well, thank you once again to Professor Hue for coming on the show. I can't thank her enough. And I hope you got as much out of that interview as I did. It was really moving.

And I think you could tell I got, I got actually a little emotional at a couple points. So, yeah, thank you again to her. Wow. That is it for us this week on Factually. I want to thank our producers, Chelsea Jacobson and Sam Roudman, our engineer, Ryan Connor, Andrew WK for our theme song, the fine folks at Falcon Northwest for building me the incredible custom gaming PC that I'm

recording this very episode for you on. You can find me online at AdamConover.net or at Adam Conover, wherever you get your social media. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time on Factually. That was a HeadGum Podcast.