Factually! with Adam Conover - Why YOU Need a Union with Kim Kelly

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

While the ongoing WGA and SAG strikes have garnered significant public attention, those unions represent only a tiny fraction of the unionized workers in the country. Throughout the long history of labor in this country, it's not uncommon for important battles to be overlooked, especially when they are the struggles of women and people of color. Adam is joined by Kim Kelly, journalist and author of FIGHT LIKE HELL: The Untold History of American Labor, to look back at some of those struggles and the ongoing story of workers' rights in America. Find Kim's book at factuallypod.com/booksSUPPORT THE SHOW ON PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/adamconoverSEE ADAM ON TOUR: https://www.adamconover.net/tourdates/SUBSCRIBE to and RATE Factually! on:» Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/factually-with-adam-conover/id1463460577» Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0fK8WJw4ffMc2NWydBlDyJAboutHeadgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creatingpremium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy toachieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to ourshows at https://www.headgum.com.» SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1» FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum» FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/» FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgumSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello and welcome to Factually. I'm Adam Conover. Thank you so much for joining me once again as I talk to an incredible person about all the amazing things they know that I don't know and that you might not know. This week on the show, we're talking about labor and workers' rights once again, because you might know I am on double strike right now, so it's kind of top of my mind. But the thing is, the strikes I'm involved in, both the Writers Guild of America and SAG-AFTRA, have gotten a lot of press because we're in Hollywood. The job of people in both of our unions is literally to be skilled at making other people pay attention to us. We've got the hottest, funniest, and neediest people on the planet, and the industry that

we're disrupting with our strikes is literally inside everyone's house on those giant screens you have on the wall. So it's pretty easy to notice us. But the truth is that writers and actors are just a tiny slice of the overall labor pie in this country. There are other labor battles that are even more significant to the lives of working Americans and that have gotten much less coverage on news and social media. For instance, remember the huge teacher strikes of 2018? Maybe you do, maybe you don't. These were larger than the Writers Guild and SAG-AFTRA strikes, but because they affected kids and teachers and not what appears on your TV, they didn't get nearly as much coverage. During these strikes, tens of thousands of teachers in West Virginia, regular Virginia, Arizona, Oklahoma,

and a few other places demanded better pay and benefits. And they did this in states that are, to say the least, not famous for their love of unions or public employees. But nonetheless, these brave workers fought and they won. They won better wages and better working conditions, not just for themselves, but for the students they teach as well. And you know what? I don't think those teachers got the attention they deserved. And that's for two reasons. Where they were, i.e. not in the biggest states,

and more importantly, who they were, mainly women teaching in public schools. This dynamic is true for all of labor history. We tend to focus on just certain industries at certain times, and we think of certain people, often male, usually white, when we think about unionized workers. But as our guest today writes in her book, the labor movement in the U.S. runs deep, and the struggle along the way has required effort and sacrifice from all kinds of people, especially women and people of color, even though their stories are often marginalized.

So as hot labor summer turns the corner into cozy collective bargaining fall, or whatever we want to call it, I am so excited to have this guest on the show today to talk about the parts of America's labor history that don't get nearly enough attention. But before we get to the interview, I just want to remind you

that if you want to support the show, you can do so on Patreon. Head to patreon.com slash Adam Conover. Just five bucks a month gets you every episode of the show ad free. We would love to have you join our community, patreon.com slash Adam Conover. And as another reminder, if you like standup comedy, I am on tour. Head to adamconover.net to come see me in a city near you. And now, without further ado, I am so excited for our guest on the show today. She is one of the foremost labor journalists working in America. She sheds light on so many labor struggles that do not get enough coverage. And she's the author

of a new book called Fight Like Hell, The Untold History of American Labor. Please welcome the incredible Kim Kelly. Kim, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to have you because you are one of the foremost chroniclers of American labor right now, especially on Twitter, where you're very well known for bringing light to labor struggles that most people never hear about. You have a new book out called Fight Like Hell, The Untold History of American Labor. Let's start out by talking about the history piece of it. Why do you think the history of labor is so untold in America? And what parts do we need to be telling more? Oh, man. So when I was first getting into labor,

I was a big old nerd about it, right? I love history. I love reading about history, especially people's history, things like that. And when I joined a union, which we'll talk about later, I had an opportunity and a reason to learn more about it. And all of the books I was encountering, because to be fair, I didn't have access to the academic writing and the work that historians have done. That's kind of a whole different beast. But I'm just going to Barnes & Noble, whatever, saying, oh, what do we got for labor books? And so many of them that I found, they're interesting, they're important, they covered people whose contributions mattered so much but so many of them are just kind of focused on the white guys and hard hats like the specific avatar of the american worker which is there a dog whistle there depends on who's saying it but when it comes to union workers i think we're we're made to feel like a union worker is yeah white guy and a hard hat like my dad who works construction works in a factory uh maybe has real conservative political opinions you know somebody want to have a beer with and those

things are accurate for some union workers and some labor leaders and some labor activists but there's so many other people involved like what about the rest of us yeah and when i wrote the book i really relished having an opportunity to dig into all those stories that some were new to me even as this giant nerd. Because I had friends who had access to those cool academic resources. And I found the work that so many brilliant historians had done before me. I was able to pull it all together and be like, oh, this is where everybody else was. They weren't hiding. They just never really got the spotlight. They weren't given the opportunity to get the recognition and the accolades they deserved because they were too much of one thing, not enough of the other, wrong gender, wrong place, wrong time, wrong color.

And I mean, that's something that arguably is still a problem today, but throughout history, the people that had to work the hardest, they're the ones that got the most done. Yeah. Well, give us an example of one of those people. Oh, there's so many. Well, did you know that the first factory strike in America happened in 1824 and was led by young women, like girls, them were teenagers because, you know, child labor, we've been out here doing that for a long time.

This is 1824. That's like 50 years after the founding of the country it's very early in the labor yes and these were young women this is potucket rhode island um in the 1800s and young women were kind of for the first time young white women i should specify because obviously like young black women young women of color did not have a choice at that point in the labor that they performed. But young white women were starting to enter the workforce and they were not very happy with what they found. What kind of work were they doing? Factory work like garment factories, specifically spinning, weaving these these formerly occupations that were crafts. these formerly occupations that were crafts, right?

That artisans would make and sell and trade in their communities before the Industrial Revolution. But after factories kind of took over, all of those crafts were transformed and automated and ended up being these gigantic belching factories staffed by children and adults. And at this point, also including young women. And what happened at that point in Pawtucket, the bosses of the factories they're working at, they set out a new order saying they were extending the workday from 12 hours to 14.

Wow. And there were slashing wages. And the girls and women were like, are you kidding me? This was so early on. They didn't even call it a strike. They called it a turnout. And they just, they walked off. And for a week they marched, they threw stones at bosses' houses. They were, they're joined by some of the male workers they they put the fear of god into those factory owners or at least the fear of the working class and they won the bosses pulled back and they you know like okay our bad sorry about that forget it yeah and that just set this precedent that you

know we're still enjoying the fruits of now right and that was a moment when women or white women weren't expected to do much of anything except get married, have kids. And these young women, like some of them were as young as 15, like kickstarted the labor movement in a way. And when you talk about people of color in the labor movement as well, like especially the intersections between the civil rights movement and the labor movement are so powerful. A. Philip Randolph and the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters. I assume those are some stories that you tell. And the sanitation workers strike in,

I forget which city, but- Memphis. Memphis. Thank you. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about those stories. Oh, man. I have a whole chapter called The Freedom Fighters. And of course, I mentioned A. Philip Randolph, who founded the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, which is the first black labor union that was recognized yeah like certified by the you know american federation of labor and at this time if i can jump in and you you fill in because you know the history more than me but like uh the main one of the main forms of interstate travel was like on these sleeping cars and those sleeping cars the people who attended were always black men right

always black men yeah and there are all these extra layers to it. Like it was such a, they tended to only hire dark skinned black men because they wanted to inspire this sort of like almost plantation-y system on these cars. They wanted to just emphasize that these workers, these people, these men were there to serve the white customers.

One of the weirdest details that I learned 10 years ago stuck with me is that everyone would would call every one of these porters George because George Pullman, right, was the name of the the train, the guy who built the train cars or that was the big industrialist. And so they would address all of them as George as though they were like George Pullman's individual servants. So they're calling them all George is incredibly demeaning and just weird. Like what if you were on a plane and you just called every single flight attendant, I don't know what the CEO of American Airlines is, but like you called them all Dave or whatever. That was fucking weird to do that. And incredibly demeaning and condescending. Yes, that was all and and um in

the book i focused specifically of course i wrote about a phil randall's contributions but i focused um even more on the contributions of the women like like rosina tucker and some of the other organizers that were part of the auxiliary that were married to some of these workers that were just part of the movement that maybe didn't get as much attention melinda shadow bear has a really great book called sisters in the brotherhood where she really gets into that whole history um i also spent a lot of time writing about a man called baird rustin who also worked with a phil brandoff a phil brandoff was everywhere so i was like there's a lot of writing about him. He's not going to get his own chapter. What else is everyone else doing? And I did that with a lot of big labor leaders.

Like there isn't a Cesar Chavez chapter. There isn't a Walter Ruther chapter. But there's a Maria Marino chapter. You know, like that's kind of the bond. This is untold history. You're focusing on Cesar Chavez. We love Cesar Chavez. But we're putting light on some other folks.

Yeah. But Barrett Rustin, he's fascinating. I think actually there's a biopic in the works, which we'll see. He was a queer black man who was from Westchester, not too far from Philly. Go birds. Okay, let's not bring partisan football culture into this i have no allegiance to any football team don't get mad at me okay i don't i'm not part of this i would get kicked out of my house in south philadelphia if i didn't at least mention that

the birds just won but westchester not quite philly but yeah he was a queer black man who was born into like the quaker tradition his family is specifically is on to raise him or his grandmother or one of his female relatives she was a really important activist she like founded the local chapter of the end of acp he was kind of raised on the ideas of justice and equality and dignity. All of these very important lessons for a young person, especially a young queer person. And he was one thing that I thought was so lovely when I was reading about him was that when he told his family, like, this is me, like, I'm a gay person. They're like, OK. And kept pushing.

So he never really showed that he never acted as though that was a big deal. Like, this is just who I am. And this was at a time when that was very, very difficult thing to do for queer folks, especially queer folks of color. But he, you know, the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, that huge, incredibly impactful civil rights protest that was like made history in so many ways. He was one of the primary organizers. He was like the architect behind it, but he didn't get very much credit for it. Well, I was reading a book about Martin Luther King. It's the big one. It's like a big thick book and it's by Taylor Branch. Do you know the book I'm talking about? They're all really big ones.

This is like one of the main ones and it's called like The Path to, oh fuck, I can't remember the name. It's fine. Everybody knows the name of this book. It's a famous um and baird rustin shows up in the book as as someone who came to martin luther king sort of early on and you know shared everything that he knew and you know sort of an itinerant uh activist organizer um during the those early years but he martin Martin Luther King was eventually pressured to like sort of part ways from him. And he like was made to leave town because it was like, oh, he's disreputable. It's that this is a queer man.

He can't be part of the center of this movement. Yeah. He got arrested a few times for things like this. Actually, MLK, he Baird Rustin was a student of nonviolence and he came down to the South and taught a bunch of those leaders, like those civil rights leaders that would become these giants. They taught them about nonviolence, about those principles. And actually, at least at one point, MLK like stood up for him. It was like, no, he's the best person for this job.

I think it was like when organizing the march, there were a couple of people on the committee that were like, I don't know. And MLK is like, he's the best guy to do it yeah don't be a dummy and he was also deeply involved in the labor movement but something that is also true the labor movement in the mid 20th century is that it often was not welcoming to black workers to uh uh female workers i mean as you say some of the you know the labor movement starts in the early early 19th century but the brotherhood of sleeping car porters the first all-black union wasn't recognized until the middle of the following century and there's a lot of history of like white-run labor movements kicking out black workers or not being willing to unionize black workers, which is like a real, one of the original sins of the labor movement in this country. Is

that not true? Yes, absolutely. And not only black workers. I mean, one thing that I think is so shameful, I don't even know if it's ever really been addressed is the Chinese exclusion act in the 1880s, the American federation of Labor at that point, they were all in. They were like, yeah, we don't want, I mean, I will certainly not dignify the use of some of the language that was used back then. But the idea was that we don't want these new foreign workers coming in and taking our members jobs. And how familiar does that sound? Yeah. kind of a theme throughout history, whether it's coming from politicians or from union leaders or from, you know, people that just aren't as, as educated on the idea of solidarity. You know, there has been this impetus throughout history to pit different groups of workers against one

other and act as though, well, these folks are coming in, they're going to screw you over. They're going to take your jobs. Don't look at us. Don't look at where the money's going, but they're the problem. Yeah. And whether it was, it was women or as black workers, or it was workers from Asia or workers from Latin America, Central America and Mexico. There's always someone that workers are encouraged to turn their ire onto and

their resentment onto instead of the bosses. And that's does the bosses work for them if you turn your anger against other workers who are just unlike you in this in this not so meaningful way. But that I mean, my understanding is that fundamentally weakened the labor movement in the 20th century. Right. labor movement in the 20th century right and then it does it now too but think about all of the instances in which uh for example black workers were called in and used as strike breakers not respected as workers like oh you would be a great fit for this job it's like oh we're gonna use the fact that you're different from the workers on strike and make them hate you and make them attack you and cause animosity there with you And that impacts the labor movement because there's for decades, centuries, like black workers had very few options to join a union to be part of a labor movement. So we like we in terms of like the organized labor movement, we missed out on millions of members.

Imagine how much stronger we could have been so much earlier if women and black workers and immigrant workers and asian workers and brown workers had been excluded throughout the centuries if those white-run labor unions had unionized and organized those black workers in the first place then there wouldn't be a whole lot of non-union workers that could undercut their labor those those people would also be a member of of a union just logic i mean shout out to the i IWW, the Industrial Works of the World, who were founded in 1905 and welcomed all genders and all races of workers

from the jump. Yeah. Like that's probably what made them so dangerous in the eyes of the government. That's a whole other thing. But it was so uncommon earlier in history

for there to be interracial unions, unions that welcome to black workers. There's a really gross tradition of having sort of like all black auxiliaries or locals, like just the segregation that was encouraged or at least allowed to flourish in the movement. Yeah, it is one of our original sin. And there's plenty of them. When I look at the labor movement today, I look at my own union, the Writers Guild, where we have, you know. My union. Your union as well.

My union. Yeah. You're a member of the Writers Guild of America East. Yeah. I'm a member of the Writers Guild of America West. East Coast, West Coast. East Coast, West Coast. Here we are.

By coastal. Uniting. Officially. Uniting the guild. There's no beef. But, you know, we have so many people of color and leadership writers of color and leadership and and who uh and part of the part of the mission now is we are going to address some of the racial inequities in hollywood as best we can with our union that is actually one

of the goals of the union is to try as best we can to solve some of those issues. We have a long way to go, but we're working on it. Do you feel that the labor movement in general has been righting some of those wrongs of the past? I think there has been a lot of movement in the right direction. I'm sure the labor movement is not a monolith. Not all unions and not all union members are the same. But I think there has been a very obvious and welcome effort to really address racial injustice and gender injustice and that doesn't work anymore it really didn't work in the it didn't really ever work because people have always brought their entire selves to the job yeah and like this is this is the thing it's gotten more complicated to be a certain type of person in this country i think we're going to see a lot more hopefully

we're going to see a lot more contracts and activism and campaigns that focus on protecting queer and trans workers yeah workers that can get pregnant black and brown workers like all these folks that are under attack and i do want to commend there are so many cool new projects in labor that are addressing these these issues in a very like intentional way like i want to shout out the union of southern service workers like they like racial justice is a core component of their organizing principles and it's all worker-led it's predominantly uh black and brown workers from the south and low-age jobs they organize kind of kind of iww models and more more solidarity unions and more direct action less concerned about contracts or legal this and that

and i think that's kind of the way the future right like the workers know what they need they're the experts yeah and just showing like especially in a place like the south where there's so many historic layers of oppression like there are everywhere in this country but the south is like a little extra spicy right just seeing the work that they're doing gives me so much hope because it wouldn't have been impossible a century ago, but it would have been so much harder. And I'm glad that they have the space and the support that they've been getting from the movement to do the work that they're doing. That is a win.

Well, and when you look at the South, which is a place with a lot of historic racial oppression, it's also the part of the country that has the most right to work states. There's the lowest union membership, right? That has the people have the least racial rights and the least labor rights in the same place. And I wonder why that would be, you know, could it be that those two things go together and could it be that workers expressing their labor rights could also help, you know, solve the racial inequalities in those areas? Ain't that a coincidence?

Yeah. That's the thing that I always like to hammer home is the idea that these are separate buckets. Like, we're dealing with racial injustice issues. We're dealing with labor issues, with women's rights issues, with queer rights issues, like with immigrant issues. I think there's this input, like uh inclination to kind of silo out these big picture issues and act as though there isn't a lot of overlap yeah but there's so much of yeah every it's all the same thing it's all this broader struggle for working class liberation and it's it's like i like to say any any protest you go to any ad like any picket line well maybe

not picket line it's gonna ruin my my good little sentence i'm gonna say but any protest you go to any like any picket line well maybe not picket line it's gonna ruin my my good little sentence i'm gonna say but any protest you go to for any cause most people there are gonna have to go to work the next day yeah and so it's like you cannot separate those things yeah and we're not gonna get any of the stuff we want and we need and we deserve if we're not working in a collective way if we're not embracing our ourselves as, as well as people, as well as all the things that make up our identities. And the cool thing is about unions is that this is where average people can build power, not just request change or vote for change or donate for change or demand change, but actually force change. Because like you say, everybody in this country works. And that means that everybody, that is the spot where they have power.

When you go into, I don't care if you work at McDonald's or Citibank or whatever, that company needs you. You have power there. If you gather together with your coworkers, you can make change. And that change doesn't need to be limited to labor rights. It can be an environmental change. It can be climate change or something. It can be a racial justice change. And that change doesn't need to be limited to labor rights. It can be, it can be an environmental change. It can be, you know, climate change or something. It can be a racial justice change. It can be a queer liberation change.

Bargaining for the common good, like the Chicago teachers union kind of immortalized. Yes. We have so much power and there are so many more of us than there are them. And a union is the vehicle that lets us use that, that our numbers to our benefit and turn that into power. It's like the little fish graphic, you know, and there's like a big fish going after a little fish. It's like,

Oh no, a little fish. But then there's a whole bunch of little fish going after the big fish. Yeah. If they're organized, right. You have to, you can't be all over the place.

They have to make the big fish shape. They can't just be, you've swimming every which way, all the fish have to go. Okay, let's make the big fish shape they can't just be you swim in every which way all the fish have to go okay let's make the big fish shape and and gobble the thing exactly uh you you said oh i just want to talk about one other group of folks um uh disabled workers uh tell me a little bit about the role that they play in the labor struggle oh man well we're out here we're like 25 of the population uh though it's kind of hard to it isn't talking about being siloed that is sort of a weird a weird zone right like i think disabled

workers and disabled like disability rights in general it's almost like a touchy one because because people that are currently able don't always know what to do with us yeah but um well and people a lot of people who are disabled also don't identify themselves as such, you know? It took me a long time to get to that point because I have,

like, I have like a very rare, hello, internet. I have like a pretty rare congenital disorder called etrodactyly. And to me,

it's like, well, not that big a deal. Like, yeah, I get eight fingers. What do you want me to do about it? But,

but becoming more involved in the disabled like disability community i've been like it's been really nice to find folks especially because i am like i'm i'm a weightlifter so finding other disabled weightlifters has been really wonderful yeah look at me i'm built like a soviet propaganda post look your eight fingers are gonna beat my 10 in a 10 in arm wrestling any day, I bet. Many probably. But yeah, personally, it was really wonderful getting to know more folks in the community and finding a place for myself in it, especially as a labor guy.

Because when I was researching the book, I knew, okay, I definitely want to have a chapter on disabled workers because we kind of get left out a lot. Even though so many people, whether they show up disabled like i do or they become disabled as a result of their job like there's a lot of us out there and it's only like you're only one bad day away from like joining our club yeah so well you know judith human the you know i love her she's in the book she's incredible and and she passed away just last year i think we had her on the podcast a couple years ago, more like something like five years ago. She was incredible. But she said, this is the one, you know, disabled folks. This is the one group. Everybody is going to join eventually. Everybody. If you get old enough, you're going to join the club. At the very least, your eyesight's going to go. And that to me was pretty revelatory in terms of how I think about, especially given my own learning disabilities and my eyesight and all these sorts of things. Oh, yeah, this is a category I can, an identity I can interrogate a little bit more for myself. We don't often do.

I belong here too. It's a nice feeling, especially when you have like my thing is a little bit more rare. So finding people that get it in a way, it's very nice. It's kind of like how it felt joining the labor movement and getting people, you know, people that had similar worldviews and politics and class backgrounds to me, like it was just nice. And so when I had the opportunity to, to write this book and do a whole chapter on disabled workers, I thought it would be easy. I thought, well, of course there's to be tons of writing about how incredibly important disabled workers have been to the labor movement. And I'm sure it's out there, but I couldn't find very much that really emphasized that overlap in

a way that I, the way I wanted to see. So I tried to do it myself. And one of the examples I really love, which involves Judy, to mention when I have these opportunities, is the Section 504 protests in 1977. The cliff notes is that the government had recently passed the Rehabilitation Act, which included a provision, it was like Section 504, that essentially barred, it was like barred federal discrimination, like barred job discrimination against disabled folks, like in federally funded employment. It was like, you know, kind of a, it wasn't a huge thing, but at that moment it was a huge thing. It was the first kind of civil rights protection for disabled people. And the government was dragging its heels on actually implementing, like enforcing the regulations that we needed to act for it to happen and so after years of sending letters and doing petitions and protesting and all the nice ways that we're supposed to judy human and kitty cone and a bunch of other disabled activists were like all right well you forced our hand here i mean those of us who have them

my little joke look this is a kind of joke i love to see someone make a joke that i cannot make that's what i that's what i really enjoy as a comedian and people get so freaked out when i do that no i love not everyone some people i'm here for it i've got a lobster girl tattoo right here incredible like that is that is fucking cool the brand is strong but so they got together and said okay we're gonna have to do something a little bigger and what they did was they launched the largest peaceful occupation of a federal building in u.s history wow in multiple cities but very specifically in San Francisco, this group of disabled activists and their allies and some of the care workers that assisted them, they occupied federal buildings. The health and health services, you know, that one, whatever it was called then.

And it lasted, at least in San Francisco, it lasted for like a month. And the reason it was able to last so long and it was so effective was that they had support from the black Panthers because Brad Lomax, who was one of the organizers, a disabled man, who's part of it. He was, he was a black Panther.

So they helped feed them and they helped fund them. And when they came time to go to DC to have a meeting with Congress and trying to figure things out, Judy was part of that too. The Black Panthers not only helped, they helped fund that. They paid for their plane tickets. Wow. And when they got, when the activists got to New York, the MASH's union, IAM, they helped

them out with office space and supplies. And they also helped with transportation. Remember, this was before the ADA. A lot of those folks used wheelchairs and mobility aids and there wasn't, there weren't curb cuts. There wasn't, you know, accessible transportation. There weren't elevators and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the machinists, they showed up with a box truck and some rope and were like, we're going to figure this out. And I just love thinking about that example because then like

they won, they got what they wanted. And without them, we wouldn't have had the ADA. We wouldn't have had all of these. It's still not enough. It's never enough, but we wouldn't, it would be a lot harder for disabled people to take place, like be in public life and to work and to do the things we want to do. Now that's an incredible story because I mean, I've talked about on this show before, what a big deal the ADA was. It's, you know, as, as important as, you know, LBJ civil rights act, you know, like those, those landmark civil rights bills that the ADA is as big of a civil rights bill for disabled folks. And it took like radical action by folks to get it passed as one of the big civil rights victories in American history. But I had not heard this story before about how

it was not just the disabled activists. It was the solidarity of the black activists and labor unions that made it happen. That's how they won. And it was, it was so gratifying to read about that and learn about that. I think it was Kim Nielsen's Disability History of the United States has a really good breakdown. It was like, oh, look, it's so, it's such a simple thing to say, like, we should work together. But when you all come together and realize, because it was an oh look like it's so it's such a simple thing to say like we should work together but when you all come together realize because it was an issue that impacted everyone yeah like there were disabled black panthers who were part of the occupation like if you're a

machinist you're losing some fingers at some point yeah what do machinists do they just work with machines and stuff arrows machinists machinists machinists. Machinists, machinists. I might be saying it wrong. No, no, no. Machinists sounds cool. Yeah. I'm a machinist. Machinists. Yeah, so they're losing fingers in that machin. Yeah, in the machin. The machin. The machin took my finger. Okay, so I go on.

A lot of people lose fingers. One funny thing, when I was down covering this coal miner strike in Alabama, I always, because I look a little atypical in some places and i'm always curious like how people will react to me because i have a kind of unconventional appearance i remember asking some folks oh like what uh you know what are people saying but you know tattoos long hair whatever i was like does anyone say anything weird about my hands i'm'm always kind of curious. I said, oh, girl, everyone here is missing fingers. We're coal miners.

Sit right in. On that note, we got to take a really quick break. But when we come back, I want to talk to you about some of the labor struggles that are going underreported today and how workers are using solidarity to change the country. But we got to take a quick break. We'll be right back with more Kim Kelly.

Okay, we read a bunch of ads. We're back with Kim Kelly talking about the labor movement. You cover a lot of recent labor movements in this book that have gone uncovered or at least undercovered in other reporting. What did you find that shocked and surprised you the most

that you think more people need to know about? Oh man, okay. So know, when you're researching something and it's, there's a gap and you can't figure out why is there this kind of black hole of information between this thing happening and this thing happening? And then you find it and it's like, oh my God, this is so satisfying. I had one of those happen. So when i was researching and writing the chapter the prisoners about incarcerated workers i had found a ton of really fascinating uh writing and research on the 1970s when the prisoner rights movement was really huge i mean the 70s a lot of rights movements are really huge people were really getting into it there's the black power movement

brown power movement women's liberation queer liberation like there's so much happening and the prisoners rights movement was part of that and there were prisoners unions that were popping up around the country including california was a big one but they were kind of popping up all over the place and and then later in 2014 the uh iwalk the incarcerated workers organizing committee which is under the IWW, they formed, and that has kind of launched a whole new era. But between the 1970s and 2014, of course, incarcerated workers were still protesting and finding ways to push back. Can I ask what you mean? Because I think you've told a lot of people, hey, a prisoner's union or an incarcerated person's union, they'd be like, well, hold on a second.

People aren't working in prison, are they? But I'm sure they are. Just tell me what kind of work you're talking about. There's so many things. Prison labor is like a billion dollar business. Wow. There are people in prison. Not only are some of the incarcerated people working as janitors or in the kitchens, just helping the facility itself run.

How's that for irony? There are also programs in a lot of prisons where folks are manufacturing things like clothing or furniture. Some of the wilder ones, I think out west in some places, they'll work with horses or animals. In California, very famously, incarcerated workers were put to work as firefighters for those giant scary fires y'all have all the time yeah literally you're you're in prison and it's like hey field trip today yeah yeah right you get to put on you get to put on firefighting gear and go walk into a blaze that you know what non-incarcerated people maybe don't want to get as close as we're gonna have you get for two dollars an hour two dollars an hour i think

they got a raise i think it was just one yeah dude i mean that's incredibly dangerous deadly work to be doing for two dollars an hour yeah some workers in places like like angola that which is itself built on a former plantation in louisiana like i don't think they are paid at all like there's no guarantee like there's no minimum wage for incarcerated work people make sense on the dollar they it's it's modern day slavery this is the this is the constitutional loophole that the 13th amendment exactly like ava duvernay had that amazing documentary about it. Like it's very much a real thing. You know, when I was writing this book, one of my best friends was incarcerated at Rikers and he had a job.

You know, he worked in the kitchen. It was kind of like kind of a win because I had access to like a little bit more food. And also, you know, I think people do it to a certain extent. Like it's working is better than not working, you know, like to do if you're. Yeah, you got something to do. I could imagine being and I'm sure plenty of the jobs are not better than not working, but firefighting, I think not better. But I can imagine, hey, you got you got some time to kill. But that's that's still like desperate exploitation.

Incarcerated workers. I think it was in Rikers or at least in new york uh earlier in the pandemic guess who was digging all the graves for people buried on heart island that's been a long-standing program and that is so fucking bleak yeah my buddy and i don't have like the the proper documentation evidence to really cover it cover he's telling me like yeah people didn't have that much of a choice yeah there you know when your boss is like oh you want to work late tomorrow i think it'd be a great idea if you did imagine if your boss could control your entire life and when you got to go home and see your family yeah so this is this

is the state of things like talking about workers that are not you know that are less covered, less seen, less cared about. These are workers who need a union very badly. And here's the thing. Yeah. When I was looking into that gap, I figured out why. Okay. So I was interviewing my friend, Victoria Law. She's a brilliant journalist and author.

And I was talking to her about this. I think I was just interviewing her for the book because, of course, she wanted to talk to Vicki Law. She's a brilliant journalist and author. And I was talking to her about this. I think I was just interviewing her for the book because of course she wanted to talk to Vicki Law. She was writing about prisons. But I mentioned like, yeah, I don't know what really happened with all the organizing. It seems like everything's kind of stopped. And she told me, you know, there was something that happened, some Supreme Court thing

in the 70s. You should look it up. See if you can find what I'm talking about. And I did. The 1977 Jones versus North Carolina prisoners labor union case. it up see if you can find what i'm talking about and i did the 1977 jones versus north carolina prisoners labor union case they ruled the supreme court ruled that incarcerated workers do not have the right to join or organize a union wow that's what happened yeah that's what happened to all the organized in the supreme court imagine this jumped in and took a bunch of people's rights away yeah people that already had very few rights yeah and that had a very chilling impact on the all the organizing that was happening it took

a long time for folks to get to a point where okay we're gonna figure out something to get around this and iwalk started in 2014 They and other organizations like Jailhouse Lawyers Speak and the Free Alabama Movement, they helped organize a lot of those really big prison strikes we heard about in 2018 and 19 and 2020. You know, they happen almost yearly because things are very bad in prisons.

And that is absolutely a labor issue. Like these are workers going on strike. They just have so many fewer rights and resources than those of us outside the walls. Yeah. And finding out that little, the smoking gun to that and seeing the government was actually like, no, no, no, no, you, you're not allowed. You don't have the right to unionize. Yeah.

Like, wow, that explains so much. And now I'm so much angrier. Well, it, it's also connected to, you know, the whole history of the labor movement is that workers fought and died and were killed by the companies and by their own government until finally the federal government made laws and said, no, you, you, we're going to federally protect the right to have a union that in the absence of governmental protection, like those with more power will just kill us, right? But that's a problem when the government decides in the opposite way.

Oh, hold on a second. The workers don't have those rights, especially because the oppressor in that case is the government, right? Because they're the ones who are employing the workers to go fight the fires or you know stamp the license plates or whatever uh it's uh a really it's really bad it's really bad and it's i'm just so grateful whenever i hear about folks who are organizing who are finding ways to push back

in protest oh fun little historical fact please we all know about the attica rebellion of course the uprising in the 70s that was you know the whole thing yeah that actually like the seeds of that came from a metal shop strike in the prison a year previously that was led by a young lord uh named cheney vase and some of his co-workers they had gone on strike to protest their working conditions and they wanted to raise and that kind kind of, and they're obviously, they're involved in, you know, political organizing, but that kind of, it just helps get some gears turning. Help get some people talking to each other. Amazing what can happen when people get together and say, you know what, this sucks. Yeah. I mean, organizing, even when you don't win a particular battle, like organizing is its own reward because it leads to more organizing in the future. At least just any time that people are coming together. That's why, you know, when we talk on this show about like, how do you organize? Just start by talking to your coworkers, have that first meeting because you'll discover things and you'll start the ball rolling down the hill. But doing that in a prison environment is gotta be so almost impossible.

What are the tactics that organizers are using in prisons today? Yeah, actually, my buddy who I mentioned who was in Rikers, shout out to David, he actually helped organize a strike while I was writing this book while he was in Rikers. And I was like, bro, you really timed this great. And he, this was early in the pandemic and he would he and like 30 other guys were in a dorm and they didn't have masks or soap or any hygiene like cleaning products they didn't have anything they were just left there to die like so many other people that like still are and especially at that point or in in prisons and jails across the country and they had um i think it was like a stick up and that is not what one would think it's not like bonnie and clive vibes like they basically refuse to eat they refuse to take their

trays at lunch wow and hunger strikes are a huge tool when it comes to like incarcerated workers organizing because that is one thing you can control. You can control what goes into your body. Well, I mean... Until they intubate you. Yeah, I was like, the suffragettes might want a word about that one, right? But there's so many small ways you can protest, but they're not.

It's not the same as the tools that we have. You can't join a picket line. You can maybe quit but like see what happens yeah you know it's people had to get so creative so food related things or people refusing to go to work or just refusing to buy things from the commissary yeah people have had to get so creative but they've done it and when folks on the outside of the walls are able to lend support like put money on the books you know get communiques out get interviews out like i was able to interview actually everybody of my chapter was either currently or formerly incarcerated or it had or was an abolitionist

with a lot of experience with the system like using the the freedom and privilege we have out here to help our incarcerated siblings like that is huge. I think the labor movement should do a little bit more of that. I would love to see that personally. And have these workers such as your friend, have they had success? I mean, have they actually forced change through these tactics? and the soap and the the cleaning products they wanted you know it's it's incredible what people can do even in the most inhumane conditions almost impossible conditions when they work together and remind the the people oppressing them like look we're humans and you know we're not as easily controlled as you think we are yeah you think twice yeah and he's home now he's living in paris he literally works at the louvre he's had a great time after he came home this this guy is fucking guy well you know the thing that strikes me another connection between the labor movement in general and uh people who are incarcerated

is that i know from you know reading enough firsthand journalism about what it's like you know in prisons uh you know journalist tedover, who I'm only distant related to, if anything, not a plug, this guy's not my cousin. But, you know, he wrote a book called New Jack about his time as a prison guard in Sing Sing and that psychology and stuff. One thing you realize is, oh, the correctional officers are terrified of the prisoners. They're so scared of them because they know that if things just go a little sideways, right? Like they have a lot of power, that the folks who are incarcerated have a lot of power. As if everybody's boss felt like that. Well, they do. That's my point. The bosses, like why do they work so hard to break unions?

Why do they lie to people? Why do they work so hard on this one thing? It's because they know that the workers are more powerful than they are if they are allowed to organize or if they take that step, right? And that's why they try so hard to keep us apart. One of the things I've been noticing in the past few years, especially since I got involved in the movement in terms of divisions being sown, is I've seen that there's been so much talk about creative workers or white collar workers. Like, oh, you don't need a union.

Oh, you don't count. Your job is fine. What do you have in common with a farm worker? And that is such a, it's like a newer, just a newer version of the same old shit. Like, oh, you don't count like you're these people have nothing in common with you. Like, you should not talk to them. You don't need a union. We're friends. We're family here. We have a pool table, you know, and that's just another way to keep people apart from building solidarity yep and i think you know the fact that the uaw hell of a union with a very complicated interesting industrial history i think at this point 25 of their members are graduate students work in academia yeah and that's like the uaw like you can't get more you know like historic like tough guy like american union the AW, and them embracing that and realizing, okay, we have to expand our definition of what a worker is, what a union member is.

That's how we grow and change. Well, and those grad students who, if folks watching or listening don't know, first of all, grad students are enormously exploited by universities. They're asked to do enormous amounts of work and they're paid sometimes very low five figures, like a scholarship or a stipend. Um, they live in often poverty conditions that really affects who can, uh, join academia, who can like do that kind of work. So, uh, that unionization effort is really important. And those grad students are such strong union members. They've come out to the writer's gold and screen actors go picket lines so often in their uaw shirts

they're just so they're like they're like so kick-ass and the best part is they won like you know the folks from the uc system yeah they they came like they're like yeah we were just on strike a little while ago and i get to go like yeah you guys fucking won that and they go yeah you're gonna win your strike too and then we like fist bump and we're like yeah it feels so fucking good it feels so good, I want everyone to have that experience oh my god I love it so much, I got to talk to a bunch of them when I was in Berkeley earlier

I've been book touring around the east coast or the east coast, west coast, did the east coast too west coast, and I was just getting to talk to all these students who were like yeah, we're in a union, or we're thinking about unionizing oh the RAs we're thinking about unionizing oh the ras we're talking about it's like yes yes child yes do it like you're you're allowed that's like one of the biggest things we encountered back when i was organizing advice it wasn't that people uh that you know we're younger like worked in new york media like it wasn't like i come from

a family but i never had that advantage we no one that I talked to is anti-union or against the idea, really. They just didn't know what a union was. They didn't know that we were allowed to join them. They're like, oh, I'm a social media editor. Like there's a union for me? Like turns out, yeah. I mean, look, that happens here in Hollywood, right? Which is a very unionized industry.

It's one of the more unionized industries in America. There's still a ton of workers who are not part of the union, right? There's VFX workers, there's PAs, there's a lot of people who have producer in their title, post-production workers, all these sort of folks. And what they'll often say is, even though they work with union workers, there's this misapprehension that, oh, because I'm this type of worker, I don't get to be in a union. I can't be in a union because I'm a producer or a VFX worker or a PA. The unions don't want me. They won't let me in.

And the reason people believe this is because often the bosses have told them that. They've said, oh, you can't join because you're not in a union. Oh, sorry, because you're this type of worker. You can't be in a union. And then that spreads as a myth. And so half of my job, because what I really care about is expanding union coverage in Hollywood. A lot of my job is just telling people, no, you can. It doesn't matter what kind of job you have. You have power. You can join a union. You actually can do it. You just need to take the first step and the second step and the third step. There's a lot of steps. It might take a decade, but you can join a union. You actually can do it. You just need to like take the first step and the second step and the third step. There's a lot of steps.

It might take a decade, but you can start a union for your job. You really can. You're allowed. That's one of the things I wanted to come through in the book. This movement is for you. People exactly like you, no matter what your background or identity or your history. Someone just like you did this and you're allowed and maybe you should think about doing it too you know back in reorg like i my job when i first joined the union i was the heavy

metal editor at a music website like i was even i when i was going into i was like like we get to have a union like what local 666 is going to come recruiting. There's a local 666. They're in Virginia. Are they really? IBW. I have a t-shirt. I got so excited.

I'm just tweeting about it. And someone DM me like, did you know? Oh my God. It's so good. You dudes are so much fun. Another type of the last thing I want to talk to you about, that would have been a great note to end on, but I have to ask you about this. You, I've seen you write on Twitter so much about some coal miner strikes in America that, and every time you tweet about them, you're like, no one else is covering this.

These strikes are so important. So just tell me about one of them and why you have been so moved and why you want to let people know about it. I've been so mad. And there have been like some great independent journalists have shown up throughout the past couple of years. Like there's been a little bit of mainstream media coverage. But there's this one strike in particular that I really dug into in Brookwood, Alabama. In April 2001, a thousand coal miners at warrior mount coal in brookwood walked

off on an unfair labor practices strike and they just stayed out for so much longer than anyone thought um the strike ended up being almost two years long wow which is i think the longest strike in alabama history it's up there for coal miner strikes in american history and i ended up getting so embedded and so invested i didn't even intend to start covering it i just happened to be down in alabama uh covering the bessemer amazon union drive yeah which got massive coverage like wall-to-wall press coverage every outlet it was great there there there's like french journalists underfoot at the union hall is wild um and i was there like for a rally and i heard oh there's a coal miner strike happening down the road i was like oh cool clearly

that'll be the next big story oh i can get in there you know i'm a freelancer i gotta take what i can get and i went down there and it was like oh i talked to some of the workers heard what was going on brought some donuts it's like oh this is really cool and i went back and talked to an editor like yeah i gotta cover this but then i noticed that no one else really showed up for a very long time like there was some coverage sure but i think i just kind of became almost a personal crusade to me because i got so i got to know so many of the workers and especially their families like a lot of the spouses the women and retirees that were involved in the auxiliary they're doing such incredible work like building from scratch essentially this massive

mutual aid network where they're delivering like 300 grocery bags a week to families they had a like a free store and they had children's clothing they held events they had a union santa like they also gave interviews and coordinated with other groups a lot of these women in the beginning had been um they had worked at home with their kids they were from maybe more traditional like conservative religious families and by the end of it some of the i was like out in vegas with some of these girls like they were we were out in new york city they were giving speeches they were like on calls with Bernie Sanders one of them Hayden Wright love you girl she's now a union organizer like throughout the course of the

strike like she found like she found so much power and so much inspiration in the labor movement she's like you know what this is what I'm gonna do I thought that was so incredible especially the backdrop of organizing and striking in Alabama which is the people that run it are so conservative anti-union and just generally awful yeah it's a very difficult place to be in a union especially if you want to strike yeah like none of the elected politicians on the gop side showed up or mentioned at all uh the state troopers and all the police were awful they were the company was allowed to get away with a lot of violence on the picket line and intimidation there was so much happening it was like some of it was real like mind wars wild west appalachian type shit but it was really hard to get people to pay attention because coal is complicated right the world's on fire we know like it's complicated

and a lot of the workers were you, more conservative white folks who voted for people that, you know, I probably didn't vote for it. Not all of them. They were not a monolith either. And it was like a multiracial workplace. Yeah. It wasn't. They weren't just a stereotype. Yeah.

You know, but I think some that's maybe how some folks decided to view them. Yeah. And they didn't get quite as much empathy and sympathy as I think other groups of workers who are fighting similar fights have gotten. And I understand the reasons or the reasoning behind that. But I also think that if we're going to say we care about workers and that an injury to one is an injury to all, we have to mean it. I think there's some things we can argue about after every worker has a living wage and health care and safety and health regulations for the job and their kids are OK at school. You know, like if we're going to say we care about workers, we have to care about each other as humans.

Yeah. And that was something that I got pulled in. Like, I'm in all the group chats. Like, I got very, very close. I met like I've met people's parents. Like, there's a baby that I met when they were 18 months old. Now they're running around. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, I got really into it. And it really reminded me, when I put in the book and I was doing research stuff, it reminded me of Barbara Kingsolver's book, Holding the Line. It was about kind of a very similar situation in a much different place. Copper miners were predominantly Mexican-American and indigenous and Mexican in Arizona who were going up against these copper mine bosses. They were treated awfully and had the National Guard called in. All of this awful stuff happened. And the women involved in that strike had a very strong auxiliary. They went from more behind-the-scenes work to touring in the country giving speaking engagements and and fighting cops on the picket lines like just seeing the way that involvement in a labor struggle like that can fully change someone's entire perspective and the trajectory

of their life i think that is so powerful yeah and even if they weren't like fun to have a beer with and they weren't my friends now like I think that is something that deserves so much more coverage and interrogation. Because if that can happen in a place where all the odds are stacked against these folks, imagine what could happen somewhere that's maybe a little bit easier. Yeah. Right? If we want to reach people, we want to change the world, we want to create a better world, you're going to have to pull some people with you.

And a union is one of those places you can find common ground that's almost entirely unavailable otherwise like a union a work is where you have to spend time with people that aren't like you yes where else does that happen right and a union is how you build like community and affinity and solidarity and see each other's perspectives and if someone has harmful or hateful views, unless they're too far gone, that's how maybe you can chip away at some of that and get them to see the world a little bit different, right? I think unions are such an engine for change. Well, that's the deeper value, you know? And in my own union work is the solidarity with

other workers, right? Oh, here's how I'll put it, is you say that a union is where you show up and spend time and work in solidarity with people who are not like you, except what you discover is that they are like you in ways you did not appreciate. Like those workers at that mine, sure, maybe if we were to immediately compare notes, we don't watch the same TV channels

and we didn't vote for the same people. But on a deeper level, we're both workers working for a boss engaged in that struggle. We both care about our families. We both care about our lives. We both deserve a safe, comfortable life. We both deserve health care and all those sorts of things. And when we're engaging on that level, that's the deeper value to me. Like ultimately any political opinion I have is driven by my commitment to meet other people on

that level. And so if we're doing that, you know, I can say, well, forget about all of the, you know, all the day-to-day politics, all the ways I've been told I'm different from you. We're engaging on the way that we're the same. And then the other ways we're different. If there's some, we want to hash out later, I think we'll have a pretty good basis to have a respectful conversation about, you know, whatever other issue we want to pull apart, you know, but because we're engaged in a common struggle over our lives, you know, and, and like, so it makes all of those ways that we're separated or that the boss is trying to separate, it makes it makes it trivial because we're, we're actually seeing each other in the way that matters. It all comes back.

And so much of it, I think, is not to be flippant, but kind of a branding issue. Right. Kind of based on the kind of media person consumes or what the politicians they think are representing them have to say. Like, I think you could pick almost any person in this country and be like you know what rich people have too much money the people at work should probably make a little bit more uh kids should be safe in school nobody people should have health care people should have a place to live most people agree with you yeah it's just when you're like and as a socialist like whoop or like as a conservative like it's

a lot of it is just the way that we communicate yeah and i think they like when folks in uh in alabama ask like oh what uh what are you democrat like i don't like either of them yeah and that's accurate and i feel like a lot of people feel like that yeah do i need to tell them like well actually you know peter perhot perotkin like no we don't need to get into you know the particulars like I'm here I'm listening to you you're listening to me like we can work with this

I think that's something that is a valuable lesson perhaps for the rest of the movement that you know some people fuck them you know like there's you know we don't need to be nice to Nazis ever but there's a lot more humanity out there that i think maybe we're not seeing and especially in the labor movement we can't afford to be like okay well like fuck them fuck them fuck them like they live in this state they work in this industry like i told you about oil

refinery workers in the bay area who are struggling after that get they got laid off because like there were climate um some kind of climate laws are put in place like climate laws good workers suffering bad how do we deal with that you're not just gonna throw them away they're people yeah like we're all just people like it sounds very like hippie kumbaya maybe i've been on the west coast too long but yeah i feel like maybe that's where i why i care so much about this stuff like i'm from a blue collar rural union family in a forgotten part of the country like my family's like they're more like like libertarian like barry gold in the backyard types not quite but they like but they like Reagan. We have very different political views, but without the union,

our lives would have been much, much worse. Yeah. And I think there's just a lot we can learn from one another and unions are a great place to do that. Yeah. My God. I can't thank you enough for coming on, Kim.

This has been such an inspiring talk. If you want to pick up a copy of your book, fight like hell, you can get it at factuallypod.com slash books. That's our special bookshop. Where else can people find you on the internet? I am unfortunately still on Twitter. Yeah.

Till the wheels fall off. Yeah. I have a Patreon. I'm on Instagram. My book just came out in paperback. So it's cheaper, which we love. And yeah, I'm just, i'm i'm just i'm freelance so i'm kind of all over the place and one thing i did want to mention very quick before

we go because i think the comment period is still open um there is a crisis in appalachia there's a black lung epidemic and right now the government is considering implementing a still a rule that will essentially make the toxic material that is getting younger people and mine sick to take it down. And you can find that on regulations.gov. You can look up my black lung research. You can look up my writing on this topic. And you can put in a comment that says like, please protect coal miners. Please protect workers. No one should be breathing in toxic silica it's just one little plug i wanted to get in there it is a terrible note to end on no no no no everyone is gonna go

do this everyone's gonna go yeah that's your homework yeah and then you can read my big old book and take but take your time is this a big girl kim kelly thank you so much for coming on the show thank you so much for having me i appreciate it solidarity forever solidarity forever my god thank you once again to kim kelly for coming on the show if you loved that interview much for having me. I appreciate it. Solidarity forever. Solidarity forever. My God, thank you once again to Kim Kelly for coming on the show. If you loved that interview as much as I did, I hope you pick up a copy of her book, Fight Like Hell at factuallypod.com slash books. When you buy a book there, you'll be supporting not just this show, but your local bookstore as well. If you want to support the show directly, just a reminder, you can do so at patreon.com slash adamkhan. Over five

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