Fairway Rollin' - Course Conditions Inside the Rope With Mark Hubbard and Final PGA Championship Thoughts

Episode Date: May 18, 2023

House and Hubbard are joined by Nathan’s brother, Mark Hubbard, to discuss and give his course observations, how the weather will impact performance, and the adjustments that he and other golfers will have to make heading into the PGA Championship (02:21). Then, the two give their last-minute thoughts heading into the tournament (16:46). Hosts: Joe House and Nathan Hubbard Guest: Mark Hubbard Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I am your starter. My birdie buddies, it is a three ball because we have our PGA tour correspondent on the ground, our accomplice Nathan Hubbard, there in Pittsburgh, New York. But he was kind enough to grab his brother Mark Hubbard, who has been traveling the fine terrain at Oak Hill. under his own two feet inside the ropes mark hubbard on tonight's show to help us all understand breakdown what to anticipate this week at the pga championship let's get some pegs in the ground and get going mark's got to get ready for a major championship my eagle enthusiast all right birdie buddies you know how we get down here on fairway rolling when it is major championship eve

we try and give you the up to the minute update on how the place seems to be playing, what the weather might consist of, how to plan out your next couple days and on into the weekend. And we always have some boots on the ground. My Eagle enthusiasts, we're taking it up a level here on Fairway Rowland. Of course, Nate Dog is up in Pittsburgh, New York. outside of Rochester, New York. But how about a guy who actually had the greengrass under his feet inside the ropes by Birdie Buddies?

That's right. It's homeless hubs himself. Mark Hubbard, welcome to the final preview show. How you doing, buddy? I'm good, man. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. I know.

It's been too long. I love seeing you. I will say that I don't love seeing you with the haircut. I loved your luscious locks and they're all gone, but maybe for the powers of good? Yeah, that's definitely my winter flow. I was very sad to see them go as well as soon as she took the first snip with the sheer. I immediately regretted my decision, but I was committed at that point and worked out because I made a hole in one the next day, so it was clearly meant to be. This was at Quail Hollow, right? Yep, correct. Yeah, after the, uh, Mexico tournament and then Charlotte.

It was getting pretty hot and sweaty and I needed a change. I mean, it's just another day in the life of a professional golfer. Well, we are in the middle of your, you know, evening preparation. You have been very kind to let us interrupt dinner time with the kiddos and you getting your own self into the correct major championship headspace. let me ask about that. How is what's your usual the night before a major? Or is there a usual?

No, there's not a usual. This is really only my third one ever. And it sort of feels like my first since the first two were during the COVID kind of era where we had no fans and not a lot of energy and just it didn't really feel like any different. This feels different. It's a big golf course, a ton of energy. I mean, there's, I played nine holes with Ricky today. There's probably, I don't know, 20 times as many people following our Praxstron group

as there will be following my group tomorrow. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun. But, you know, I don't think it changes a whole lot from tournament to tournament. We want to play well every week. You know, Quail Hall, last, my last tournament was, you know, just as tough of a course as this one. Well, that's telling, right, Nate Dogg? Yeah, can you feel the difference in the energy between the design, events that you've played and this? Is it like noticeably different in terms of is it just fan

energy? Is it the size of the crowds? Is it the course? What feels different between what they've tried to create and what this is? Yeah, I mean, it's everything. It definitely starts with that energy as soon as you get on property with the fans and just bigger grandstands and, you know, everything just feels bigger. And there's always been a couple tournaments like that. I know we've talked in the past about farmers. That's kind of the first one of the year that you get to and you're like, whoa, this is the PGA tour. But yeah, I mean, it's everything. It's the energy. It's the condition of the course.

Just, you know, everything is just a little bit more manicured. It just feels like what you dream of when you're a little kid being on the PGA tour. So you just made an interesting observation. You compared, you know, the ballpark at Quail Hollow to this ballpark. Just in terms of the scale, there's a similarity. but give us a feel like inside the ropes because the weather up there right now it's kind of on the cool side right?

Like how is the turf feel under your feet? It's cold is what it is. It's cold. It's fucking Nate Dogg says it's fucking cold, Mark. Yeah, I slept until 10 a.m. today and didn't get on the course still like noon because I was not dealing with anything below 40. So I was not about that life.

But yeah, I mean, Quail, as it is, just as a course, I mean, it's always tournament ready. It's just that heart of a golf course. And this one is too, from what I hear from members and people have played it before. Yeah, it's just, I mean, you step on property and it's just ready to go. I don't feel like, you know, I feel like a lot of times a place like this, they actually have to, you know, kind of tone it down for us because they need four pin locations. And they know it's going to be a little firmer and faster. So they kind of have to, you know, maybe I'd heard horror stories about how fast these greens are. And I think they couldn't really have a tournament here if they got them as fast as they wanted because they wouldn't have pin locations.

There's so much slope on the greens that, yeah, you wouldn't be able to play four days, especially with some of the win we've had. But you played wing foot and you came out of there feeling like some of it was a little bit circus and that the green complexes in particular felt a little unfair. Coming in this week, the rap was, you're going to have to be long off the T. It's not quite as punishing as a U.S. Open necessarily, but it's pretty tough for PGA, but that the long par four green complexes were actually not circus greens, that they were a little more manageable. Some of the shorter ones have more slope. As you get on the course now, A, is the driver and distance as important as everybody said, or the fairer running out a little bit more than people thought and B, what is the vibe on the green complexes?

Yeah, I mean, obviously distance is always a benefit no matter where you go, but having played, you know, the past couple days, I was surprised there really aren't that many kind of forced carries or, you know, bunkers you can take if, you know, I heard a lot of stuff like, oh, you better be able to fly at 320. And I haven't really noticed that at all. There's maybe one or two holes, but, you know, a lot of the bunkers that I can carry. I mean, everybody can carry. So the fairways are really fast, especially if you're in the down grain part. I mean, it's rolling out 30, 40, 50 yards on some holes. And depending on the wind direction, I mean, 10, for example, today I couldn't really carry the left bunker. But yesterday, I was

hitting three wood over it, trying to stay short of the water through at like 3.45. So I really don't think distance is any bigger of a factor than it is normally. And definitely not as much I think people had thought it was going to be just because those fairways are so permanent fast. With the rough, the way it is and the green complex is the way they are, I really think it's a lot more beneficial to be in the fairway than to be super long. And, you know, if you are hitting the fairways, like I said, it's going to roll 30, 40, 50 yards. So yeah, I haven't really noticed much as far as the circus greens. There's a lot of slope, but I think they're pretty manageable. There's, It seems like every hole there's one, maybe two spots where you just put a big X in your book.

And the rest of it's kind of like, yeah, I can get this up and down. So it's just kind of identifying those spots where I felt like a lot of places that at wing foot was kind of just like, I don't know where to hit this. And it doesn't really matter because it's going to be hard no matter what. In terms of scoring opportunities and, you know, what you've experienced over the last couple days, is it going to be the kind of situation where par is a good score through the majority of holes, or will there be some opportunities for birdies based on, you know, some of these pins? Yeah, I mean, I think the pin locations are going to have a lot to do with it because there's a lot of, you know, kind of front pins and bowls that you can kind of use backstops.

But overall, as, you know, the whole course, there really aren't a ton of opportunities. You got the two par fives and a couple short par fours. But other than that, I mean, you're just going to have to hit good golf shots. In my head right now, I mean, I could see it getting into double digits, but, you know, depending on the way the wind goes, like, I wouldn't be surprised if eights in the conversation. So that's kind of my mind if I can go two a day. I know I'm going to be somewhere near there. I don't know if that's going to be the winning score, but I know it's going to put me in a spot

where I have a chance maybe. It's tough. Yesterday, it was so windy. It was out of the southwest. And then today it was east-northeast. I think that's going to be one of the biggest factors, just kind of different wind every day. And the course played so drastically different. But with the cold and the wind the last two days, I can't imagine it's going to play any harder than it did in our practice.

So I could see it getting to, you know, low double digits, but I don't know. All right. So last question, then we're going to let you go deal with your babies and eat some dinner. It sounds like 13 and 14 are potentially pivotal holes because you've got the par five. that they could set up to be longer to force the carrier keep short, and then 14 is potentially drivable, and then 16, 7, and 18 are hard, long assholes. Does that feel like where the tournament is won,

or are there some sneaky other holes on the course that you think might dictate the outcome this week? Yeah, I mean, both finishing stretches on both nines are super tough. Six, seven, and nine are really tough golf holes. and then yeah, 16, 17, 18. I'd really like a four-shot lead if I was going to try and win this tournament because 17 and 18 are just brutal. But yeah, I think that's accurate,

especially if they move the tee up on 13 at all where you can possibly cover that creek and get there in two. And then, yeah, I'm probably going to hit driver every day on 14. That fairway is so sloped and the green is so tough to get two. like I hit in that front bunker today and that seemed like an awesome position to be. So I think those are two scoring opportunities back to back, which is very rare on this course. So it will be interesting, you know, guys making moves there and then trying to hold on on the last three. Is there any, some guys came off the course and said that it feels like a,

that short on a lot of these shots is better. Did it feel that way to you? 100%. Yeah. I'm trying to think of a single hole where I would say long is better. Maybe 10 to the backpins just because it kind of weirdly slopes away from the middle. But yeah, every hole short's better. Bunkers are tough.

They've got a lot of really tall lips. So, you know, anywhere, especially all the holes that you can run it up, anywhere just short in the fairway, even if you're 30 yards short is better than just longer in some of those bunkers. Well, that that suggests then that around the green, and especially like strokes gained around the green, is going to be of paramount importance because we've kind of established that strokes gained off the T isn't going to be necessarily as vital because the distance component has been somewhat neutralized. The reputation isn't holding up because it's, it's firm and fast. And, you know, part of that is an aspect of the weather. Do you agree, like, you know, being able to save par, put yourself in position for a birdie from off the green? Yeah, obviously, approach is always paramount.

But you agree around the green is going to be paramount? Yeah, absolutely. Around the green. But I mean, I think, and I don't know, I'm not a big stats guy. I don't know how the shots gained all works because to me, like approach is going to be the most important thing for me, trying to leave it in the best spots. Like if you're out of position off the tee, just trying to leave it somewhere. because if you leave it in the right spots, actually the up and downs are quite easy.

And if you leave it in the wrong spots, they're basically impossible. So there's not a lot of in between. So, I mean, that strokes around the green will be important, but it's more about where you're missing. You are scheduled to go off. 912 a.m. Thursday morning.

Now, there are frigid temperatures in the forecast overnight. So it seems like there might be a little frost delay. And as you prepare for that, as you get your head on straight tonight and think about tomorrow morning and maybe not going off at your appointed time, is that just like, I hate to, I was going to say part for the course. It's so goddamn bad. Is that something that you deal with enough, you know, the variability and lack of being able to predict always that you can roll with it? Or, you know, how are you getting your head on straight for that? Yeah, no, I was, I mean, I was a little annoyed, to be honest, with my late tea time on Friday, the 237 twilight rate that I got was a little frustrating since, you know, I feel like I played well and I actually qualified for this tournament rather than being one of the stragglers that got in to fill the field. Listen to him. Wow.

But that being said, I'm super pumped for my 9-12 tomorrow because it really is the worst thing when you're first or second off, which is. is sort of my category for the regular season with the delays and stuff because you're up, you know, you're up at 430. You're doing your regular schedule and then, you know, if there's delays, you're just sitting at the course, whereas tomorrow I'll get to, not a lot's going to change for me. I get to sleep in a little bit and see how all the delays play out. Beautiful. Well, Mark Hubbard, we're wishing you the very best of luck. Thank you for breaking your routine and giving us idiots here, Fairway Roll and a little bit of a breakdown. The birdie buddies across America certainly appreciate it and are rooting for you.

Everybody that we hear from is on the side of homeless hubs. Yeah, I think it's going to be a lot more like par pals this week than birdie buddies. But yeah, I appreciate you having me. Thanks, Mark. All right, Nate Dogg, please go give Mark a big hug for me to thank him very much. But that's a little bit of a different kind of take on the golf course. how it might play than what we walk through with our good buddy, Justin Ray. So over these 48 hours since we taped the preview show, some things about this venue have revealed

themselves. And we've heard from a lot of different players about different aspects of this. I think to me, the biggest sort of surprise is the idea that the fairways are somewhat accessible. They're not, they're not super crazy narrow. and if you can get in the fairway, the ball stays in the fairway and rolls and you get tremendous rollout, right? Yeah, I mean, I think the takeaway is that the distinguishing characteristic

of the PGA championship at this point is the core setup is the best of the four majors. That's not taking anything away from a GUS. It's the same setup generally every year. Gus is the best. But the PGA Championship is the one that seems to gravitate to core. versus where they can do a lot and where it actually brings in the field.

Instead of letting in 25 PGA tour teaching professionals and making it completely unthinkable that one of them could top 20 or top 30, what we're hearing is that this is a tournament where if you're playing really good golf at a super high level, you have a chance to compete. And that's different than wing foot, which was the course we compared this to all week and that a lot of people have compared it to, where by this time at Wingfoot, there were probably only 10 guys who had an even remote chance of winning the tournament. And I think everybody's going to bed tonight. I mean, not everybody has a chance to win the tournament, but I think

skill sets of all type that are going to play their best golf and are going to get up and down around the greens are going to hit fairways and be accurate with the approach. They're going to have a chance to win as opposed to getting blown off the course by the big boys. I'm not sure it changes my feelings, and I'm interested in how you approach this. I mean, for me, I still feel like this is a tournament because of the way they set it up and because of the factors that we just talked about that favors first-time winners. And that we have a number of guys who have been knocking on the major championship door who fit the profile. We talked about it with Jay Ray, Cam Young, is a delicious pick this week. He's come in with no beard, which has thrown me for a loop.

he has reminded me that his dad is a PGA teaching pro, just like JT's dad. And we all know he's from New York State. This is not close to New York City, but it's New York State, and he's comfortable. As he said today multiple, multiple times, this feels familiar. This feels familiar. And so somebody like a Cam Young, we've talked a lot about Zander, and I think we haven't loved the way that he's always necessarily grabbed tournaments that are big ones by the neck outside of the Olympics, but

Xander's the kind of guy who could be primed for a finish here. Did you see anything from any of the other players this week? I mean, I certainly saw a few of the press conferences and saw some guys out on the course that changed a little of my thinking. Anybody who talked to you

into or out of them this week, house? Now that we've had a little bit of time to deliberate and, you know, what I've seen in terms of press conferences, first of all, probably going to allocate a tiny bit more to Tony Fee now just because of how enthusiastic he was about how this place fit his eye

and how he was getting the ball into the fairway and watching the ball go. And then he said in some of these par fours, he has five iron and six iron. And most of the time, those are when he's on in regular tour events, reserved for par fives. So it's a unique experience to have to hit, you know, mid-irons on par fours.

But he just was so centered and calm in his press conference. So I love his disposition and demeanor. The evolution of Tony Fienow is one of my favorite stories of the PGA tour of the last couple years. You know, no reason to back off of our own enthusiasm for him and the way we might allocate capital. If we want to stay in that lane of first time winners, I also am going to, you know, I have some amounts attributed to Sung J.M. I'm going to go ahead and put some more on Sungay. Okay. You mentioned Zander. We talked about him Monday. I already have exposure to him.

Do you worry about him flying back from Korea? Sung Jay. Yeah. I mean, he played there last week instead of on tour. He's a marathon man. No, he's a marathon. It just doesn't matter. I don't think it does. Not for him. Okay. And then I, the one that I have a question mark that, like, checks a lot of boxes, especially the accuracy off the T, the length off the T, is Can't Lay. And is this the one where we finally see him, you know, around the leaderboard and then jump up into the top five, the top 10, and then be there Sunday? we just haven't seen it from him career-wise.

Is this the one? I think you're going to regret if he wins with Joe Lakov on the bag and you don't have a little bit allocated there because the only thing that has been missing from Kantley is not the game, right? It's been the focus. It's been something in that moment that has pissed you off to no end. It really has. And you've got a guy who's, you know,

know, cadding for Nellie and catting for Tiger and just understands what it takes to win. I mean, it's just, it's not any different, I think, than Bones in some way. I think dragging J.T. to the win here a year ago when J.T. was basically on the

microphone before he hooked up with bones, just saying, getting the second one is frankly harder than getting the first one. You know who else I really liked in terms of his presentation, his comfort, and he was candid about his previous major this year.

I know what you're going to say, and this is on my list of things to talk about. Just say it because you're so right. It's Max. Yeah. 100%. And I loved how candid he was about arriving at Augusta being out of sorts with his swing and fighting it. You and I saw him.

We saw it. We actually called out to him on that Wednesday. Yeah. And he was in the dumps. quite frankly, he was a dick. You can say it. And now we understand why. Because we watch him.

I told you, I turned to you. I said he just hit two balls. He is as pissy and his body language is terrible. And what he said that I thought was so insightful in his press conference this week was he knew it was just a matter of survival. And he called it like it was. And he said, this week I'm coming in with my game feeling good. And what we've said all along about Max's is he finished T-13 in the PGA before.

So it's not that he's never performed well in majors, but he knows, and we all know, that the next step in a guy who's won six times on tour is you've got to play well in a major, you've got to put yourself in contention. And that has been for one of the most lovably, mentally fragile, historically guys on tour. I thought that's been his sort of white whale.

I thought the way he handled that press conference was a reflection in the ongoing evolution of him mentally to a point where he can stand up on the microphone and say, I just didn't have it that week, and I knew it. And I'm not worried about it because I'm good enough. My best is good enough to win out here. And that's something I didn't believe before. Some weeks I'm going to have it. Some weeks I'm not. Coming into the Masters, I knew it didn't have it. And that sucks because I love Augusta. And it was just about survival. But he told us unequivocally on that mic, this week I feel like I have it. Get some home into your portfolio,

Oh, Birdie Buddies. Another guy that we talked about with Justin Ray, and he kind of called our attention to, you know, the quality string of this guy, but I like the way he talked this week was Tyrell Hatton. Yeah. I think Tyrell might be ready. He's sending us some messages, isn't he?

Yeah. Only guy in the top 25 in shots gained off the T and putting and maybe on approach is Rom and Hatton. that was a J-ray stat that he tweeted out today. Yeah, I look, I still think that Teryl is his own worst enemy and gets in the way. And, you know, as we said earlier in the week, it was charming to see him on the, on the telecasts talking about how his bogey-free round. Maybe he shouldn't have been so hard on himself. I'm not sure he's done a complete mental turn, but he is playing, you know, he's one of the 15 guys who can win the tournament this week, I think, at the end.

end of the day, who we would think has a real chance unless you get another Sean McKeel thing, which, by the way, fascinating article tonight that came out about Sean McKeel and his mental journey after that victory and how being sort of unable to replicate that success was just a grind on him and the things that he went through in his personal life. So really encourage everybody. I think that's actually up on the PJ Championship website. A great, great read on just how you'd think that winning solves everything. And the truth is, as we're reminded again and again, it isn't. Speaking of McKeel, you know, we talked about the master's dinner house as the food master in this group.

We talked about the master's champions dinner as being a big moment. And there really was no drama coming out of it. And I think that was a nice moment of harmony that a lot of the players this week got asked about. And of course, they're all dodging the question. Now, Rory is going to just not talk anything about this. live, PGA thing. He's just decided he's going to go in the other direction. And you and I support it because he's earned that right. That's right. But the PGA championship, uh, dinner, champions dinner last night is the first time that Rory and Phil have been in the same room together because Rory's

not a master's champion. So, great point. I heard no drama coming out of it. I mean, the biggest drama was the menu was all over the place. I mean, they had six different entrees you could choose from. It didn't seem like it was put together in quite the way we would have liked. I mean, JT, I want a little more focus and depth on that menu. I don't know if you got a chance to sort of peruse it, but there was pork chop, there was steak. It was really something for everybody instead of a deep focus the way we see at the Masters. As you know, when you try to please everybody, you please nobody, Nate Dog. That is not the way to instruct a menu. And you don't have to accommodate what you imagine to be all of these divergent,

all the guys and their routines and everything. Who cares what Yiyang was? Make the best two or three or five things and serve it, and that's the dinner. That's it. And that's why the Masters does it so well and does it right. Here's what I want to ask you. Have you seen anything in these last 48 hours that changes your mind about anybody?

Is there anybody that you feel like? is a cross-off. Yeah. I'm crossing off Jay Day. He did not play a practice hole this week. And I don't understand it. And he tried to justify it as he's done it before in big tournaments. I think it was probably him staying out of the cold,

given his injury history and trying to just recuperate from a big win last week. But I don't think Jay Day is going to be as competitive this week. I think very big mental hurdle to get over last week. Huge accomplishment for him. and the more that you'd sort of dive into the story of his mother and everything, you understand how that took a lot out of him. But I'm less high on J-Day than I was coming in. I didn't love what I heard from J-T.

I really didn't. I think he is still looking for something, and now he was last year when he came into this tournament. But he had some magic on Sunday that I think turned the tide. I just didn't hear what I wanted to hear from J-T. You know, you want to hear something like what you heard from Rom, which is he just seems to feel no pressure anymore. He has moved into the upper echelon.

The psychological part of the game is no longer an issue for him. It's just whether he's swinging well that week. And if he is, he believes coming in, he can win. And I think being the first European to win the U.S. Open and the Masters is a transformational moment for this guy. He is now the scariest guy in the field. You know, seconded only to Scottie Schaeffler, who, if you really watched him talk this week,

he is like DJ Light. He's like, God-fearing DJ. He doesn't say anything of substance. I mean, talk to me about how you feel about Scotty. Well, I have a confession to make. I bet on him to win this golf tournament. Okay. And I did it on Monday.

You know, I certainly agree with the sentiments that, you know, we shared and that Justin Ray shared and the prevailing wisdom of trying to nail down which of the first timers, who's been around the hoop, who's going to do it. but I mean, Rahm and Sheffler are in such a different place than the rest of everybody else. I feel like you can't show up to a major and not have one of those two guys. They're in happy personal situations. Yeah.

Right? They're in happy family situations. Exactly. They are in happy game situations. And both of them have two of the oddest swings on tour if you just put it up against what normal good swinging guy sort of looks like. But they're also two of them. most consistent guys who seem to have figured out the game mentally in different ways, right? Like Scotty, Scotty gets in front of a microphone and says literally nothing, absolutely nothing.

They ask him an opinion, and he says, yeah, I don't know. He answers no question. And I don't think it's because he's got nothing going on in his head. I think it's because it's a deliberate way that he deflects and has decided that he can be best at the game. Rom is the opposite. Rom tells you exactly what he thinks. And in depth and with meaning, he was the only one who actually took on the live versus PGA question that every one of the players got asked. And yet, you know, he just is in a moment now psychologically where I think he is superior to every single other golfer out here because of the high that he's been on here since the Masters. Yeah, at some point, we will sit down and do a comparison between the way the Europeans seem to approach the press,

situation and the way that the Americans do it. And we'll have a nice compare and contrast and try and get to the bottom of the psyche of the athletes. But for our purposes, tonight, Nate Dog, parting shots, you're on the ground. It's going to be cold. We love where Mark Hubbard's head and game are at right now. And there was a couple of interesting revelations in his generous time. with us. Give me here your party shot.

I still stand by first time winner, but I think Brooks Kepka's on a mission. I think he's pissed about the second place at the Masters. I think he's figured it out psychologically or physically, excuse me. And, you know, as an expecting dad and everything we heard him talk about the choke at the masters, like he's being honest with us. And that's a telltale sign that he's comfortable mentally because he's not trying to hide anything. So I expect that the live guys are going to play a. serious factor this week. If you've got Brooks, you've got DJ coming off a win and Cam Smith coming

off a 61 on Sunday. I think we're going to get our Live versus PGA tour storylines again this week. Well, this is the way that we're going to end our second major preview of the season, which is with Brooks Kebka, the same way that we ended our first major preview of the season, the Masters. Nate Dogg, thank you and thanks to Mark Hubbard, boots on the ground. We'll be in touch over the course of the weekend. We have our recap coming up Sunday. Go take care of those kids, Nate Dog. I'm on it, baby.

Thanks, buddy. All right, my par saving, pals, and I mean it, par saving is going to be the order of the day here at Oak Hill. Thanks so much to Mark Hubbard, thanks, of course, to Nathan Hubbard. Thanks to our producer, Eduardo Ocampo. We are ready to rock. Tees in the ground.

First thing tomorrow morning, Thursday. it's balls in the air. Nate Dogg and I will be in touch. You can see us on the Twitters talking about the interesting development of the weekend. And then we have our recap lined up right here, Fairway, Rowland, Sunday night. And it will be on the Fandual TV as well if you want to watch the recap Monday morning. You're more than welcome to. We really encourage it.

Please. It's a great weekend all across the country. Throw a peg in the ground and let's all hit them straight out there together.