Fairway Rollin' - Scheffler Is the No. 1 Player in the World. Plus, Is Tiger Going to Play at the Masters? With Bob Harig.

Episode Date: March 29, 2022

House and Hubbard start by recapping Scottie Scheffler’s victory at the WGC Match Play, which moved him up to no. 1 in the world. Then they are joined by Sports Illustrated writer Bob Harig, author of ‘Golf’s Most Fascinating Rivalry: Tiger & Phil,’ to discuss his book and a bevy of other topics surrounding Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson, including when do we think we’ll see each of them play again (12:36). House and Hubbard wrap up by previewing the Valero Texas Open (49:24). Hosts: Joe House and Nathan Hubbard Guest: Bob Harig Associate Producer: Isaiah Blakely Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up? It's Ricillo with the Ryan Rissala podcast on The Ringer and Spotify. Make sure you're checking us out every Tuesday and every Thursday episodes through an NBA playoff run that is unpredictable as maybe any that I've ever seen in covering this sport. And also the NFL draft that doesn't have the top headliners at QB, but our guest, I put it up against anybody, the best draft analyst in the business to be joining us almost every week prior to the draft. And a little break from all the sports, having fun, telling stories, who're trying to give out some life advice to the listeners out there that feel like they need it.

And by the way, just like sports, I don't always get that stuff right either, but at least it's fun to listen to. Listen and follow the Ryan Rusilla podcast on Spotify. Hello, friends, and welcome to this golf podcast, unlike any other. This is a pre-major version of Fairway Roll. We are very excited here on Fairway Rowland.

the golf podcast on the Ringer podcast network. I'm your starter, Joe House. And joining me this week, as is always the case, our PGA tour correspondent on the ground, Nathan Hubbard, and we have a special guest because major things are happening. It's the first major tournament of the season. The Masters is less than two weeks away, my birdie buddies. And we need major tech.

Allen. A first time, long time guest coming on, Bob Herrig, currently of Sports Illustrated, long time journalist for ESPN. So it will be a three ball, but Nate and I are going to go off as a two ball. Just warm up the golf course a little bit before BH joins us along the way. Nate Dogg, here we go. How you doing, buddy? We have to coronate Scottie Sheffler now, don't we? I will say, House, that way back years ago when you, me and Billy,

did the season preview pod, there was a kid coming off the corn fairy tour who we talked about as one to watch. We get some things extraordinarily wrong here on Fairway

Rowland, but we did not get the call of Scotty Schaeffler wrong back in the day. I think that was like January of 2020, if I'm recalling that correctly. You are correct. I was out in Los Angeles, California. Or no, maybe it was, yeah, it was 2020. We resumed.

Pre-pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. I am pretty stunned with what we have seen over the last 42-ish days from this kid. So what's amazing to me is not that he's won three times so much. because this third one of the three felt like the most natural based on what we know about him and his strengths and what he's demonstrated to us. Yeah. What's amazing to me is he's now won three very different types of golf competitions, right?

And we might have said coming in at API, the Honor Palmer invitational at Bay Hill, we sort of felt like that was one where he just hung around the hoop and he kind of felt. into the win there. You could have seen a lot of guys win that one. His class delivered the win. The class of his game. But this was just mono-e-mono and pretty relentless, great golf. Yeah. At this, the two things that jumped out to me with Sheffler, his comfort and his ability to make his own luck. Lots of times he was in trouble. Right. And then, He did the most unlikely thing. Hole in bunker shots.

Yes, exactly. When there was peril staring him in the face, he had a very impressive ability to just shut out that, whatever that fear felt like and just execute. And, you know, with the most extraordinary and unlikely of results. It's interesting comparing him to Fienau, isn't it? Because Fienau got the win last year and you thought, maybe the floodgates are finally going to open.

He's been top 10 Tony forever. Now he's finally got it in his head. Puerto Rico was a win for sure, but it's a opposite field event, not a real event. He finally got the real event win. Maybe this was going to be it. And Tony's disappeared.

We said the same thing about Schaeffler. Hey, maybe the, and whoa, the floodg- There are no gates. The gates that were protecting the flood are gone. the power of the water rushing through him is so hard. I mean, this guy is one of the best performers in majors over the last two years. And suddenly, the fear, as you say, the emotion, the stuff that's between your ears that gets in the way of an otherwise extraordinarily talented golfer getting the results that he or she wants and otherwise should get, all that shit seems to have evaporated into the air. We now have a serious hauss on our hands.

Well, and his odds to win the Masters are down to 16 to 1, which is probably good for other bets that we want to make. I don't think I want to lay that. No. But you mentioned his performance in the majors, he has six straight top 20 finishes in majors, and that necessarily includes a tied for 18th at the 2021 Masters, which was competed in April, and then a tie for 19th at the 2020 Masters, which was in November. But the thing that I just want to give top 10, Tony,

a tiny bit of, you know, room for improvement in the following way. Okay. His win came in the playoffs. And, you know, he got himself into Eastlake and then basically shut it down. Like, we didn't see a. ton of Tony through the fall. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Sheffler run has come, you know, in the ordinary

cadence of the golf calendar. There was no natural rest point, no natural disruption. It seems like Tony might have lost some of that mojo that he was, that he had at that moment. Um, and there's no reason he can't gain it back. He's in the field this week at the Texas, Bolaro open. Yeah. Um, and he's obviously in the field at the masters. I'm not prepared to cross him.

off of either list. Yeah. He just beat the crap out of Xander Schaftley on Friday. Did he find something? That's all. Yeah. Well, you may be right. I hope so. We love top 10, Tony. We'd like him to be winning Tony.

The Schaeffler thing, though, he has been unflinchingly consistent. I mean, you think all the way back to the TPC Boston playoff event, where DJ came in and absolutely dominated. Remember, he was almost going to get to 30 under.

He actually blew a 59 or 58. He was like 11 under through 11 or something. And 11 under through 13. He didn't get the 59. Sheffler got a 59 that week. Let's do this little thought exercise with me. We've been talking about Kalamorakawa. Just a guy?

Just a guy, maybe. We've been talking about Victor Hovland. And those two guys have really. captured our imagination as the young guns coming up that, that, you know, as we've watched and marveled at their achievements at such a young age, how did we sleep on Scott? Did we sleep on Scotty Schaeffler? I mean, I'm inclined to say maybe a tiny bit, but.

We did because he wasn't winning. That's why we slept on him. But, you know, to your point, best scored a par in the major since 2020, ROM at 31 under, Schephler at 26 under, just a guy, Morikow at 25, always second place Louis at 24 under. That's straight from our guy Justin Ray. But, I mean, you know, February 12th, he had zero wins, $8 million in money.

He was 14th in the world. It's March 20, what is it, the 8th, 29th. He got three wins, $15 million, and he's first in the world. I mean, this, did we sleep on him, or did he get let loose? They just let the bulls out of the pen with the win. And that is the difference between the guys who go on to be great. And people who are just a guy, which is some of these people, the rarefied air, they get to that next level, right? They get through the mental spider web, whatever the fuck is in the way of you and me playing good golf at our shitty abilities all the way and up to the super pros who still they have to get through whatever is in the way.

And victories are sometimes that telltale litmus test of whether the guy is going to be great. what's so fucking frustrating about Justin Thomas right now. Oh, interesting. For me. Didn't make it out of his pod. Got the PGA win under his belt,

turned himself into a guy who should be number one in the world, but there just is, and this is one of the reasons why we love him, let's be honest. Because his best buddy, Jordan Spieth, is more of a headcase,

but there is a little bit of head caseness within Justin Thomas. in the way that he sometimes performs down the stretch. And we're saying this about a guy who has a players in 14 wins. So, you know, this is not, but why he hasn't done it in the majors, there's still that little hurdle. Sheffler now, I mean, we got to take him seriously. He's the number one player in the world.

Nate, we're on the sprint to the masters. I mean, you and I literally, like basically a week from now, we'll be throwing some stuff in a bag to make our little sprints down. down to Augusta, Georgia. And the two times, the multiple, multiple time winners on tour in the 2021, 2021, 2022 season are Scottie Sheffler, Cam Smith, Victor Hovlin, Sam Burns, and Hadecki. And all I can say is, God damn it, because I feel like you have to allocate a teeny tiny amount of your portfolio

to all those names. Maybe not Burns because Burns hasn't played the Masters before. But, you know, shame on us if there isn't a tiny bit of exposure to these names coming into August. I mean, you have to have

Cam Smith. How are you going to have Cam Smith out? You just have to make the decision, is this guy going to cool off or is he hell unleashed at this point? I mean, that's exactly right. Right. Well, you know, there's a whole bunch of names that we haven't talked about that we're going to talk about in this week leading up. We're going to get on some Rory, who's in the field this week at the Valero, Texas Open, which is very sexy.

We're going to talk about Jordan Speed. Brooks Kepka. How about a little Kepka siting? He's sending some signals to us, Nate Dog. DJ. How about a DJ signing? He's sending some signals to us, Nate Dog. But look, I mentioned at the top, we have a very special guest this week. Bob Herrig from Sports Illustrated. He's got a brand new book coming out. He's coming on to join us. Let's welcome in and to talk about Tiger Woods. And maybe a little bit of Phil Mickelson as well while we're at it.

All right, my eagle enthusiast, as promised, we have a long time journalist from ESPN, the Tampa Bay Times. He's currently pushing out really illuminating stuff on sports. illustrated their morning read. He has a brand new book out. This is a guy who's covered Phil Mickelson and Tiger Woods their entire careers. Dozens of sit down one-on-one interviews with those two guys. Both of those guys are kind of relevant, I think, to this upcoming major tournament.

Bob Herrick, welcome to Fairway Rowland. Thanks so much. I appreciate you having me on here. I always tell everybody I started doing this when I was 12 when you started talking about that going all the way back to the beginning of their careers. So, well, we've admired your work from afar for a long time. So we're thrilled to have you on here. And I will tell you, Nathan and I deliberately did not talk about Phil or Tiger.

Yes. In our run up to this conversation with you at the moment, let's do, I'm a glass half full kind of guy. So let's start with Tiger. because the news of the last 24 hours, 36 hours, a lot of different sources, a lot of, we have video, we have, you know, behind the scenes talk. None of whom are actual journalists like Bob, though.

Well, that's right. But it seems like there's a sentiment out there that Tiger Woods, for sure, we're confident he's going to show up because he's going to participate in the champion's dinner. It seems like he might undergo a practice round. And then he'll make a decision about whether or not he's going to play. What is your sense of what the hell's going on with the Tiger Woods? Yeah, you know, I've, I've been a skeptic about this the whole time.

I mean, I just, I know it was four months ago when he played the event with his son. And it didn't look good. Well, you know, his golf swing looked amazingly good. Yes. But the rest of it, and he had a golf cart, and it was 36 holes, and he was gassed each day. Yeah. And so he had to progress from 36 holes, actually 54. He did play pro-am, but 54 holes golf cart scramble to walking 72 holes, hitting every shot,

standing around for five hours. I mean, there's no sitting down, you know, maybe once in a while on a bench you're going to sit. But they're standing the entire time. There's the practice leading up to it. I mean, it's just a long day on your feet and you cannot, you cannot understate what a big deal that is for him at this point with a really bad foot and ankle that, let's be honest, we haven't been given all the details about, but it was bad enough that we know that, you know, lots of broken bones, bad injury to the ankle, flexibility, being able to just walk. So are we going to assume now that he's going to take that and play Augusta National, one of the hillyest, most demanding walks there is? Look, I'm not saying no.

Certainly, he's done a lot of surprising things, and it appears he's trying and giving it all. But I just think it's still a little bit of a long shot. And we don't really know, has he been there before? There's some rumblings about him going this week. I don't think it goes into Masters week. he makes a decision before then. I can't imagine he shows up for the big circus

and goes out there and plays a practice round in front of thousands of people and then says, nope, I'm not going to do it. I don't think he shows up there unless he's going to play. Bob, this is a guy who is famously, viciously, ruthlessly competitive. It's driven him his whole career, and you've obviously done a lot of documenting of that. To your point, it seems pretty unlikely that he's, going to show up and win the Masters.

Again, he won in 2019, all bets are off. But based on some of the injuries that we've seen, he hasn't played competitive golf. We also know that Tiger threw his injury has got a different view on time, on his own mortality, on the shortness of life and of these opportunities. Is it possible that he could be going to play the Masters

without a full intention to win, but because he knows he's only going to get so many chances before he's really too old to do it, and that he's going to go in for the first time without the mentality of I'm going to win? Is he capable of that yet? It's a great question. I hope he is,

because I think that's the only way to approach this. How can he legitimately think that he's prepared to win? It'll have been 17 months since he played in a real golf tournament. you know, the 2020 Masters. He's going up against guys who are doing this every day, every week, practicing, playing, being competitive. There's competitive rust that he has to chip away at. It's hard to do it in a place like the Masters.

So, I mean, I think he has to lower his expectations. And frankly, nobody else should have higher expectations than that either. I mean, we should cut him a break. It's unfair to put that on him. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if he gets out there and completes 36 holes and miss. is the cut. By the way, he's never missed the cut at the Masters as a pro. It's only missed it one time in 96 the year before he won. That was the second time he played it. You know, I mean,

we have to be prepared for the fact that he might not have it all together. I mean, you're talking about some of the most difficult greens in the world, a lot of, a lot of precision required. He could have all the shots. What if he gets really tired on the back nine each day? You know, and it's very, very possible that that's going to happen. Yeah, they're, there, I, I, I, I think about these two appearances in the booth with Nance at Riviera. The one that came, whatever, three days before his accident, when he was down, and if you saw him walking at Riviera, which is down the street from me, he was not walking well at all. I mean, he was already injured.

His back was bothering him. You know, he was doing those things with Wade and David Spade, and he wasn't even swinging a club. He just had a putter. To what we saw just a few months ago, where he was bright. and happy and seem to have, you know, the massively overused word perspective on life, you get that sense that maybe he understands with that in the World Golf Hall of Fame, that he's moving into that icon status and that he doesn't have to feel like he's competing with 23-year-olds. Maybe I'm just being, you know, romantic about it and hopeful,

but you did over the last few months of public appearances, you tell me, because you've watched him more than anybody. But it does seem like he has mentally moved forward from that killer old tiger thing that he sort of famously used to get all his wins. You know, it's funny. I think he had moved on from it a little bit before after the back surgery. You know, he had a perspective back then. This is three, four years ago now when he came back from the spinal fusion surgery that, you know, I'm, I'm lucky to be here.

It's amazing that I'm able to come back. I appreciate now this so much more. He loved the idea of playing for his kids and them getting to watch him. And then he got competitive and obviously he won the Masters. But remember, after the Masters, he was never really great. No. The rest of that year until he had his knee fixed again. And then he won the Zosso.

He played great at the President's Cup. And then he showed up right before the pandemic and wasn't. great, you know, and so we went through, you know, the whole 2020, and he just, he never really was in contention when he came back. He played with his son Charlie in that, in that December event. This was not the last one, but the year before. And then had another back surgery. And as you said, he did not look good in that Jim Nance interview in 2021. The big question, two days before the car crash was, are you going to be back for the masters? And, you know, in a weird sort of way, I think there's a more likely chance he's back for this

masters than he would have been for that master's. I think you're right. Stunning. Because he wasn't obviously letting on, but clearly his, look, he had just had the microdicectomy what, two months before. Right. There's kind of a three month period there where you need to give it that much time. And when he had those microsyctomies back in 2014 and 15, you know, they,

didn't really work for a long time. I mean, they just were kind of a band-aid. This one was probably higher up on the spine. We don't even know for sure. You know, we don't get these details. So I think what you saw in this later Jim Nance interview is I don't think he has back pain right now. And it might have been in a weird, weird way. Obviously, nobody wishes this had happened. Right. But the rest. But the fact that he could not swing a golf club for months meant that maybe the that got way better. Well, I want to continue this thread that we're talking through right now and put it in the context of your book, which is Tiger and Phil golf's most fascinating rivalry.

And what I'm keen to get your perspective on is do we think there is any element of the incentive for Tiger to be reminding everyone of the role that he plays? as really the true golf ambassador because, you know, what, what Phil has done effectively to himself, the self-immolation over the last, you know, a couple of months. And we'll talk about in a minute, you know, the withdrawal from the masters. But look at how Tiger has filled that, that vacuum. He's the, the, the, the Hall of Fame induction was magnificent. He gave us a version of himself that we had not really seen before. And it seemed so genuine and so authentic. And now he is the one that's going to show up at Augusta. And he's definitely going to be at the champion's dinner. And it remains to be

seen what other kinds of, of, you know, opportunities we, we get with Tiger at Augusta this year. But this was supposed to have been Mickelson's 30th Masters. It was supposed to have been, you know, his the run-up to the PGA championship for Phil and instead what we're talking about who we're going to see live and then the flesh is Tiger Woods. Yeah, it's really interesting how that all worked out. I mean, there's so, so much I could say on this subject. You know, Tiger didn't figure to be an elder statesman,

at least not for a while. You know, that never seemed something he was comfortable with. And while I don't think Phil was that comfortable with it either, because he wants to be competitive still, I think he was going to embrace it at some point. You know, I've actually written this. You know, look, we're 10 months removed from Phil winning the PGA championship. What a glorious accomplishment that was.

I mean, incredible. He broke a 53-year-old record for the oldest major champion. He beat back Brooks Kepka, you know, who was trying to win his fifth. I mean, Louis Oostezen, a major champion who is also playing very well, was right there too. And Phil actually kind of won on a U.S. Open style course, the one major he wasn't able to win, did it with with powers that we hadn't seen from him. And he should be reveling in that for the rest of his, for the rest of his life. You know, I mean, if he never did another thing in the game, that would have

been it. And he had it all right there. You would think his endorsement contracts would have been enhanced for winning a major. He could have had a big TV contract if he wanted one. He could have gone out on the Champions Tour and cleaned up whenever you wanted. And he was still going to be welcome at all these tour events for as long as he wanted to show up. He's exempt in the majors. And now he's not even going to be playing the Masters. And the guy who has been on the shelf and we're not quite sure of his future is sort of stepped up. And, you know, the Hall of Fame speech, actually the way he has talked about kind of siding with the PGA tour in this whole, you know, rival league thing.

you know, he's come across as the guy who's got the perspective. And that wasn't supposed to happen for a while. And here it is now. Why then? When you say it like that, I just hear, I mean, I hear what, I hear what Denzel Washington said at the Oscars last night to Will Smith, which is when you're your highest point, that's when the devil comes for you. But what is it inside of Phil that he needed this?

And by this, I mean, you know, the pursuit of the Saudi golf thing that has so drastically and dramatically led to this public perception downfall. What is it inside him that drove him? Well, let me first say a couple things where I feel like he actually had a point or he may have had some substance. One is that Phil's not the only player who feels that the PGA tour hasn't been as transatlantic. transparent as they need to be. No doubt. These guys, there's many of them who question a lot of things that happen. They don't understand why we spending money on that. Why is money going towards that? Phil has long believed, and he's not alone. That's why I say that not alone because he's the one who's taking all the heat for it. But he's not alone in believing that the star players, the top star players,

have not been rewarded for their worth. And the reason I believe he has a point in that is that, let's remember now, just on course earnings, okay, they all make plenty of money and endorsements. But so do, so do, so does Steph Curry and a lot of NBA guys. Sure. But if Steph Curry doesn't make another free throw the rest of the year, or if he doesn't make another three-pointer, he's still getting whatever his, what, $53 million?

He gets every penny of it. if John Rom, who led the tour in money last year, on course, 7.7 million, doesn't play the rest of the year, he gets zero, nothing. And there is, there is a sense among the top guys that they bring way more to the table to have to start out every year with nothing. And I get that. You know, it makes some sense. And what these rival leagues have been talking about, it's not just the live golf one that Norman's behind, but the, the four runner to that, the premier golf league, They were talking about money up front, guaranteed money every week because there would be no cuts, and guys would sort of be compensated based on their worth, based on their star power.

And a guy like Phil has long lamented that the stars have not been compensated for their worth. For example, Phil has always believed that the schedule should be condensed, that there shouldn't be opposite events that the tour is funding. if you're good enough to get in the regular events, you're good enough, play better. Now, of course, that's easy to say when you're one of the best all time and you're going to get into those events. The PJ Tour is a member organization that looks out for the 200th guy, and they want to give the 200th guy a chance. But Phil has always believed, hey, why are we playing 48 weeks out of the year? We should only play 30. We shouldn't have opposite events that we're funding.

Just have the regular events if they want to get in play better. And so he sort of has a point there. But where he missed it was the whole media rights thing. There's no pro athlete who has rights to his media. There would be no TV contracts of worth that would pay the salaries and purses that we're seeing. And, you know, when he talked about obnoxious greed about the tour, look, this is where he's had his platform for 30 plus years. It's the reason Workday and KPMG were paying him all that money. They knew he was going to be on national TV, X number of weekends a year competing.

And oh, by the way, you know, that gave him the platform to win over $90 million in prize money. I mean, so like to criticize the PGA tour as harshly as he did, you know, really, really kind of hit people the wrong way. I mean, even the ones who have issues with the tour, I don't think would have been that vicious. It seemed like he, I guess my question to you, having studied the Tiger and Phil relationship is this. He understood the role that Tiger had in the game. He also seemed to understand what was possible for those star players. Is that some of what was behind them reconciling or coming closer together in the 2010s as they started to do a little more appearances together? They did a match.

Was that what drove that? you know, coming together? I think part of it was just perspective and getting a little older and not being as fierce. But to be honest, the main reason was business. Yeah. They saw an opportunity, you know, that match they had in Las Vegas and they had another one in 2020 during COVID. The COVID one with Brady and Manning was meant to be just as big as the first one just

between Tiger and Phil. And they were both going to profit from this handsomely. Obviously, the COVID one became one where all the money got donated. And then they never did another one. Tiger was out of it after that. It was just Phil. They did that for business purposes. Now, was there some softening?

Sure, absolutely. I mean, Tiger talked about how Phil actually reached out to him to help him with his chipping in 2015. He had never disclosed that. You know, when Tiger was really having those. issues where he was he was he was chipping like us you know he had the he had the chip yips basically to you know and phil reached out to help him and tiger really appreciated that they got very close helping on the rider cup way back in o four i have a whole chapter on this in the book about just how

you know while it might as seem like a good idea to put them together they had no interest in collaborating at that time they weren't going to help each other they were very very different at that time, very competitive. And they had a hard time getting on the same page and they lost twice. Whereas 10, 12 years later, they're tired of the U.S. losing all the time. And they decided to kind of put their heads together. And, you know, Tiger was an assistant. Captain in 16, Phil was a player. He had a great Ryder Cup that year. And so they collaborated. They compared notes. They were a force. So those things together, even into 2018, when they both, played in the Rider Cup, both played poorly, but they were both part of that. And so that,

that came together, uh, the softening getting older, but the bigger part of it, I think still was the monetary business side of it, which obviously, you know, had that had to, listen, Phil won nine million dollars, the tire didn't go away empty handed. He was getting paid in some way for that. And they saw that as a little mini franchise going forward. Let, let me ask you this in view of this softening and the present circumstances, what is your handicapping of the likelihood that Tiger Woods has reached out to Phil over the last two months?

I am going to say zero. Really? Wow. I don't think he has. Wow. Because, and look, I have no inside info on this, but my gut is on this situation, It's that frosty.

I think that Tiger is probably and his camp are probably upset that Phil went down this road. If he reached out, it would have only been to admonish. Tiger's agent, Mark Steinberg, is very loyal to Jay Monaghan. Okay. He goes way back with Jay. Like, in the early 2000s, Jay was actually the tournament, director of the event outside of Boston, Deutsche Bank. Right. Oh, right, Deutsche Bank.

And Tiger's foundation was the beneficiary. And they got close back then. And then Jay moved up through the ranks. And not one that I'm aware of Steinberg's clients was interested in any of these rival leagues. And so my guess is there is a healthy amount of, I don't know, I don't want to say it too strong, but just annoyance or made dismay at the fact that Phil went down that road. And so I don't think there's a whole lot of sympathy for them right now. And look, I could be wrong, but my guess is that, you know, they have not felt the urge to reach out.

I'm sure other players have. You know, I'm of the opinion that everybody deserves to be able to recover from something. Phil had a pretty darn good track record over decades. You know, I know we had the issue with the SEC and the Billy Walters thing, which is very technical and complicated. But other than that, you know, Phil's had a pretty pristine career. And it's kind of blown up here in the last few months. And does he have a way back from that?

I kind of hope so. Well, tell us he is not going to play the Masters, very different than what we, at least understand tigers thinking about. But, you know, Phil, there have been some rumors that part of the reason he's going away for so long is that there are books

like yours that have some anecdotes that are going to pile on to some of what has already leaked out publicly, right? I mean, is there any inside thing that you're hearing that there are more shoes to drop or is he just getting counseling from his folks? right now that he needs to disappear and take some time to repair.

When are we going to see him again? But more acutely, you're on the inside. You hear these buzzes. Is there more to come here? I do think there is a little bit more to come. I don't know that it's so egregious. You can't overcome it. I have not seen the Shipnuck book yet, nor the one that's, that the one that is potentially

really damaging is the Billy Walter's book. Yeah. And he's got a big vendetta. You know, he's, you know, he went to prison. and Phil, filled it wouldn't testify on his behalf. Yeah. There's a lot of bitterness there.

Yeah. My book is more the feel good. That's what I was going to ask it. Give us the good stuff, maybe. I need, I need, I need more time for an addendum or, you know,

a paperback where I can write a couple more chapters because in a weird way, this fits in beautifully. But mine was about their playing. And, you know, I was trying to wrap it up, like giving you the idea, it's possible that we're done with these guys,

that they might be finished. And if so, what a glorious end to both their careers. But yet, I left the door open for more. Unfortunately, I did not see this part coming. I did not see. How could you? I did not see Phil imploding like this. So are there some things? My guess, though, is somebody in Phil's camp has been able to get a hold of Shipnuck's book. And while it might not be great, I can't imagine. You know, my understanding is it's nothing that would be so egregious that he couldn't come back from it. And so now we're looking at, all right, is Phil really need some time away? Is he got some personal issues?

Does he have money issues? Did they ask him to stay away? This is where, look, this is where the PGA tour, and obviously the Masters is not a tour event, but the PJ tour does itself a disservice by not announcing suspensions. Yeah. Because we're sitting here asking, is he suspended? Yeah. Well, they won't tell us.

Yeah. And so it becomes, okay, well, if he is suspended, would the master's honor it? Would the PGA championship honor it? How long was he, if you were suspended for three months, it would take him through both? And those organizations might be apt to go along with it. In other words, they might say, well, look, if they're going to, if they're going to, to suspend him. We're not going to let them play either. But we don't know. You know, so like, and so if he's not, this is where it's a disservice. If he's not suspended, then these things,

then him not playing is more on him. Yeah. You know, and so, um, and so what's going to happen, though, they want the story to go away. It's not going to go away. After the masters, we're all going to be talk about, is he going to play the PGA? Will you play an event before the PGA? Doesn't you need an event to get ready. Where will that be? And it just, this, this, this will never end until he talks or he comes back. Do you have a sense as to your own best guess based on, you know, decades of experience with Phil Mickelson about will he reappear on tour this year, which is to say, you know, they have the crazy calendar.

So through the tour championship, 2022, the 2023 season starts in the fall or whatever. But do you anticipate seeing him at all? the balance of this year? Do you think that the combination of other things that might be out there that would reflect poorly on him plus whatever defiance, it seems likely he's still feeling as it relates to the PGA tour? Those two factors. Does he take the whole year off? You know, I thought he'd be back for the Masters. So, you know, when he when he issued that apology and said he was stepping away, that was what? at the end of February.

So it's been a month or so. And I figured that that would be enough time for him to sort of regroup and try to come back. And the fact that he hasn't now really throws it wide open. I mean, I think what you suggest is possible. Maybe he doesn't play at all. But I mean, if he wants any sort of public life again in golf, he has to address this at some point. He has to have a conversation with Jay Monaghan.

The problem with that apology is it said nothing about the PGA tour. Nothing at all. He apologized to the live golf people. And look, there's a whole other side of that. I'm not throwing a colleague under the bus here because by the letter of the law, I'm thinking that what happened is okay, the way that those comments were reported. But I also have been around this sort of thing long enough to know that there's no way in heck, Phil expected those comments to be printed. No way.

Nobody talks like that if they're going on the record. He was riffing. He was venting. He was spewing, whatever. You don't use profanity like that and expected to be printed, even in a book. You just wouldn't do that. And so my guess is regardless of how this all came down and what was said before the interview or what wasn't said, and look, it's on Phil.

You better damn sure make out that it's not on the record. He didn't think it was going to be used. He didn't think it was on the record. I mean, he said all the bad things about Saudi, you know, the stuff that's always been out there and then basically admitted, I'm willing to look past that to use it as leverage. Yeah. I mean, that killed him. You know, the KPMG has a lot of business interests in Saudi Arabia. I don't think they dropped him because of what he said about the tour.

I think they dropped him because of what he said about Saudi Arabia. You know, they have people that are employed over there working in that country. They don't want one of their spokesmen talking about that region. regime that way. So it is an incredible, complicated mess that he got himself into. Well, it was a surprise. That was a big revelation. You've studied this relationship between Tiger and Phil, sort of retroactively having lived it and worked through it. Was there something in the course of doing the research for this book and pulling it together that you learned that you didn't already know that was surprising that was a big revelation to you? Well, I think there's a couple

things. One is that I could find no instance of Phil ever being dismissive of Tiger in any way, even off the record in private, whatever. Yeah, he had the comments about the equipment all those years ago where he said, you know, Tiger's playing with inferior equipment. He hates that I'm hidden by him. That's all in the book in a big way. But in a weird way, that was Phil sort of giving Tiger a backhanded compliment. And it was true to an extent back then, Tiger was not playing with a shaft as long on the driver as other players were. He was sacrificing length back then when other guys had stepped up with their equipment.

He wasn't using some of the newest technology. People took it to mean he was dissing Nike. Maybe he was, but he didn't say that. But, I mean, apart from something like that, I could find no instance where Phil was dismissive. of Tiger, where he made fun of him in private, where he, you know, looked down on him. It was all positive. It was all, Tiger's been great for the game.

Tiger's been great for me. Sure, I wish, I wonder what it might have been like without him, but I know that he made me work harder, that sort of stuff. Whereas on the other side, there was, I found, you know, some, none of it's egregious, but kind of petty, little things with Tiger, you know, behind the scenes, you know, being dismissive of Phil, sort of, you know, maybe, you know, being a little bit arrogant about Phil, you know, like, and I think a lot of ways that was Tiger just trying to prop himself up. He used that as a motivator.

The rich beam story. Exactly, the rich beam story, which I find to be amazing, frankly, that was, that was one I did not know going into the book. Some of the things I knew and tried to try to embellish, but, I mean, I don't mind telling it. I mean, the context, there's more to it. But basically when Rich Beam won the 2002 PGA and Tiger burning the last four holes to make it interesting, and Beam needed to kind of coax in a little two-footer on the last hole to win by one, it was a bogey putt. He did a little jig on the green and celebrated and he beat Tiger by one.

Tiger won the first two majors that year. He was in contention at the British through two rounds, big storm, shot 81, and then comes back at the PGA and is in contention, again, to win a third major. that year. And by the way, had eight majors at that point to fill zero. And in the scoring area afterward, Tiger's watching this beam putt play out. And when Beam holds out, he basically, you know, let exalted. Like, you know, he was like excited, like, yes. And Fred Funk, who was playing with him was in the room, was like, Tiger, what's going on? You know, you, you know, Beam just won the tournament, right? You know, he didn't double bogey that hole. And Tiger is like, I don't care. That's

that's Rich Beam one, Phil Mickelson, zero. And at the time, it was true. You know, Beam had a major, Phil didn't, and Tiger was sort of relishing in it. And Phil wasn't even in the hunt, you know? And that sort of was the mindset. He kind of liked keeping Phil at a distance. And a couple years later,

when Phil started to figure out, Tiger viewed him as a threat. It's really fascinating that that aspect of it. I've asked you to handicap a little bit of, what's going to happen potentially with Phil through the balance of this year. I'm going to ask you for one more handicapping. This time, so March of 2023, the Masters will be approaching again, the 2023 Masters. Do we see Tiger Woods?

Do we see Phil Mickelson? Do we see both? I think we see them both. Yes. Amazing. Definitely. You know, Tiger has said he will. play tour golf again. He will have a limited schedule. My guess is, is he will put all his

efforts into getting ready for the majors. It will be a Ben Hogan-like schedule. You know, if you go, I encourage people, go look at Ben Hogan's record after his car accident in 1949. I believe the most he played in any year was nine tournaments. The year in 1953 when he won the three majors, I think he only played six. Now, I'm not sure Tiger can do it playing only six, but like eight or nine seems possible. Like you play one or two in the spring before the Masters, you know, maybe you play another one before the U.S. Open. You play the U.S. Opin, you play the British Open. And so now you're up to, you know, that's maybe six or seven tournaments. You play your tournament in December, the hero tournament. Obviously, he's going to want to be there. He would play at Riviera.

his tournament in LA, maybe adds one or two more before the Masters. You know, maybe sort of a once a month thing through eight months of the year, nine months of the year. Phil, I just, you know, look, maybe it's more hoping. I just hope that we're past this by then. You know, everybody deserves a second chance. Everybody deserves to come back from a mistake. And while it was a big one, you know, now listen,

And if Phil goes in place in the live golf league, then all bets are off because I'm not, I'm not sure that the majors, I don't know if they have the ability to keep them from playing, but I'm not sure that they're going to want him to. And these are things he really has to weigh. I mean, don't you want to play the Masters and the PGA Championship in the British Open for the rest of your life, you know, and enjoy that? Is the money that important, you know, which leads to other questions, like, why is the money so important? You know, Phil should have plenty. You'd think. Even if he's had financial issues, he should still have plenty. You would think.

He's got smart people that work for him and around him that you would think would manage all that. You would think. So, you know, to answer your long, it's a long one answer, but I really do think they'll both be there next year for sure. Well, it's a perfect capper. The book is Tiger and Phil golf's most fascinating rivalry. Bob, when's the book come out? It actually, the publication date is April 26th. It's available now on Amazon.

They're pushing the pre-sales big. I was just told that it's going to start trickling into bookstores here pretty soon. Like, they start sending it out. Like, I actually might see a copy of it myself here one of these days. All right. If there's errors in it, they can't be caught now. It's too late. Well, perfect.

Something for everybody to look forward to major season. has arrived. Bob, Nathan and I are going to be down at Augusta next week. Are we going to run into you? Absolutely. You know how to find me. Are you going to be in the media center at all? I don't know. We're working on the credentials. I mean, there are people smarter than us that are in charge of that stuff. But we got to find a way to have a to share in Azalia together, right? Absolutely. Yeah. You know what? You just got to get in touch with me. You know what the, you know the big problem in Augusta, right? No phones out there. Right. Makes life really difficult in this world that we live in now. I can't just be on the 10th green and go, hey, I'm on the 10th green,

you know. We're going to look for you under the big tree. I don't know whether or not. We probably won't have access to go inside the ropes of the big tree, but we'll wave you over. Please do. Please do. That would be great. Bob Herrick, thanks so much for coming on the show today. And we're looking forward to the book and we're looking forward to seeing you at Augusta. So great, guys. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. All right, my paris saving pals. Big big thanks to Bob Herig. Check out. his book, Tiger and Phil Golf's most fascinating rivalry.

Speaking of rivalries, actually there are no rivalries going into the Valero, Texas Open down to San Antonio, Nate. All there is is Charlie Hoffman making every single cut every time he plays this thing. I am somewhat thrilled, though. We have a really quality field this week compared to previous

versions of this because some guys took off the match play or didn't get very far in the match play and they want to go play some golf before the Masters. Well, good for them because it keeps an event going that actually peaks our interest. I guess I just got to start. Are you on Rory or Jordan, who frankly have been two of the most disappointing really good golfers at the start of this season this week? I don't know the answer to that.

God damn it. Which suggests more likely. no, I'm not going to be on them in terms of any allocation of capital. I'm not betting on either one of those two guys. My anticipation and suspicion with Rory, he wants four rounds. So he will play hard to make the cut. But I think he just wants four rounds. I don't know. Iron sharpening iron. Yeah, that's it. Iron sharpening iron. And Jordan, like, you tell me, like, we caught him. He was sick for a stretch and then he got over his illness, but he didn't look, you know, amazing at the players, but the players is also not his spot. He's the defending champ here that that has in a previous

iteration of Jordan Speeth meant something, right? He's defended at Jordan, at the John Deere and, you know, obviously at the Masters. This was the event where he really got us excited, where we really felt like, all right, Jordan's back. And, you know, where my, spieth truthorisms were finally, you know, proven to be to be worth the time investment in brain hemorrhage that I'd had waiting for it to happen. But there's been a little bit of a letdown since then. We've sort of been waiting to see Jordan round into form here. You know, we got a little bit of at the AT&T, but not enough. So can he conjure up the visions of last year's 6766 on the weekend and pull it together? I...

I mean, House, I'm looking a little further down the board, to be honest. I mean, that's the history of this place. Looking further down the board, for sure. Yeah, I mean, this course when the wind is up can be not that much fun. And to your point, these are guys, a number of whom are either, they're in it because historically it hadn't been a big field, or they're in it because this is their last chance to qualify for the Masters, or they're in it because they're trying to sharpen iron a little bit.

And the odds board is interesting because of what we just went through in match play. But also when you overlay it against some of the winners the last couple weeks, I mean, don't forget, Audubon Lahiri, who we really loved in the players finished fifth here last year. And he's all the way down the board at, you know, 100 to 1, sitting there with a few other interesting, names like Brian Stewart, who put his face off in the Dominican Republic last week, like Takumi Kaniah, who played very well in the match play thing down in Austin that got overshadowed by some of the other big names that we saw. But he was the one who ultimately made his way out of that bracket, right?

Yes, it was very impressive. So, and I like the way that you're headed on this, the cut line, since they've been, moved this tournament to the TPC San Antonio venue. It's never been under par the cut line of this. It's a hard venue. It is the second hardest in terms of Greens hit and regulation behind only Riviera. The number of fairways hit, it's 56%. That's 6% below Tor average.

Tor average is 62%. This venue, 56%. Now, some of the profile that we're looking for here, you need good scrambling and you need, it seems perhaps, and this is one of the thoughts of our good buddy, Pat Mayo, length, because you're going to have, you know, ball striking and strokes gained approach, as always, the number one attribute. But if you can have a shorter iron into greens that are harder to hit, That's the thesis.

Are you talking yourself into Bryson at 24. Well, no, no, no. Bryson is a stay away. In fact, Bryson and Hideki, let's just cross them both off. Got to stay away. You just don't know anything about the health.

It was good to see Bryson play a different style of golf, a different brand of golf. It was good to see him not swinging out of his shoes. Just in terms of like reminding us, what a creative genius he is in many respects. Like I was kind of blown away and intrigued, watching quite a bit of his round. He's still very rusty, though.

Oh, two and one in the match play. It was exactly what you went out of him. He went out there and just, he just needs loops and loops under his belt. Just kidding. We're going to fade him through this week. We're going to fade him at the Masters. I'm interested in seeing what the missed the cut odds will be for him.

If they're, you know, they're going to be plus money, not plus money. They're going to be, if they're anywhere close to even money, I'm going to bet them. Okay. And I'm not laying a lot of juice on it, but, um, iron sharpening dildo for Bryce and DeShamba. I like the, not iron sharpening eye. No, iron sharpening silicone dildo. That's correct. Um, I like the storyline of this is the last chance to make the Masters. Seven of the nine

previous winners had not qualified for the Masters coming in. And so I'm looking for guys in form that have not yet qualified. And the names that jump out are names like Chris Kirk, who has a good track record at this venue, a bunch of top 15s. He has a couple of miscuts, but the miscuts have occurred when he hasn't been informed. We know that he's in form right now.

Top five at the Arnold Palmer, seventh at Honda, 14th at Phoenix. So that this has those kind of vibes. Kevin Streelman back-to-back top eights at this venue and also play in some good golf, a seventh, the 22nd. He has a miscutting there, but also a 16th. So another guy kind of in form.

And then I'm looking at Patton Kazire. You are. I am. Top 10 at Valero last year. And if you use the metric of last 24 rounds, his strokes gained in terms of his iron play has been very good. I'm the homie Reed Fowler, Pat Mayo's colleague, with a lot of this good information. Those are the kinds of names that I think deserve some attention, maybe some top, top 10, top 20 kind of action.

I don't mind it. I think Gary Woodland's going to win this golf tournament. I like this. I like where you're going. Go ahead. T6 last year, at this event, he was rounded into form. I mean, T5 at the Honda, T5 at API. cut at the players with just a blow up in the second round,

but everybody blew up in the second round who was in that wave. And he was fine at the Valspar. So it was weird to not see him in Austin. That was really weird. It's just an indication of just how far he's fallen. But it's also an indication of how world ranking is not always the best indication of who is actually hot and playing well right now. So I'm looking at Gary sitting on the board at like third.

34 to 1. Hey, I mean, Kegan Hadwin, C, Wu, are ahead of him. I mean, Corey Conner's,

like, just getting the huge boost after last week. I love Gary sitting down there in the 34 to 1 range. Yeah, I won't do anything with Cory Conners

other than maybe a top 20 play because I'm worried about him being exhausted. Yeah. It's so taxing. I don't even think he's going to be the highest finished Canadian. His performance at the,

I mean, he has a win at this venue. I actually like him using this to recharge the batteries. I wouldn't be surprised of Corey Conner's misses the cut. He knows what kind of form that he's in and he plays the masters really well. In fact, yesterday I went ahead and sprinkled a third of a unit on Cory Connors, which is available at 75 to 1 to win the Masters. Now, do I think he's going to win the master's? No, which is why I only put a third of a unit on it. But he has a pro. that fits that the master's winner profile.

So I just wanted to put that out there. Now, of the guys, there's a bunch of international guys. I'm just want to highlight for you, do you think that Richard Bland has a chance? If he had beaten DJ in their head to head down at, he would have been in. He gave me DJ a nice contest. He really did hang in there quite impressively. Do you remember a number of years ago and we will look at it up? But when the Houston Open was the qualifier,

was the last tournament before the Masters. And I believe it was Ian Polter, who had fallen down the rankings and had to win the damn tournament to qualify, and he did. So if we're talking about old Englishmen, maybe there's a precedent. I like it.

I like it. No reason to sleep on it. Well, I will tell you, you mentioned Lahiri at the top. I'm going to put a meaningful thing, maybe like a half unit on the hearing. to top 20. It's all I want.

I want him the top 20 at this event just out of respect. This is me paying it forward for all of the joy that he delivered to us that very handsome outfit that he wore on the Monday finish of the players.

I might show up with the Masters in it. Don't be surprised. In the same way, you don't like. By the way, that Polter win, which I would have told you was 10 years ago,

was 2018. That's how much brain damage there's been. Well, I mean, a lot, a lot has happened. A lot has happened, buddy. Good, Lord. That is why COVID was basically dog years. Like, one COVID year was seven real years.

There's no way. That was 14, 15, 16 years ago. Oh, my God, April 2018. Well, so Lahiri we're in. Just for a top 20. I like it. I like it. That's it.

He's performed well here. Why not? I'm going to join you on Woodland. I'm going to play Woodland. to win. I'm going to play Woodland to top 20. And then all those other guys I'm going to go ahead and sprinkle a little bit. Kirk, Shreelman, Kazer. Anybody else? You mentioned Brian Stewart.

You're going to put anything on him? Yes. Yes. Yes. I think he's playing a little. A little on Stewart. But here's what I'm going to tell you. We're not going to t-shirt canon money on this tournament. Do you know why? Please. Because we're going to the Masters. Friends.

Welcome. We're going to save it all because this is going to be an incredible week, and not just because we're going to be there, but just because this is going to be one of the most fun masters in a long time with all of the storylines coming in, with all of these guys healthy and playing well, with some newcomers like Sam Burns, who hasn't even hit the course,

with our guy John Rom being kicked out of the number one seed, and you know he gives a shit. Oh, man, does he? And with a potential return, of Eldrick Tiger Woods. It's too much. It's too much, Nate, dog. I don't know what to do other than save up our pennies. All of these are going to have to be quarter unit plays.

I need to save all my dollars. Now, you mentioned we are going down there. We don't have the full schedule set up yet in terms of all the content that will be coming out of the ringer.com, the ringer podcast network. I can tell you for sure that Bill Simmons will have podcasts featuring the Masters, one or both of us on Sunday. the Fairway Rolling podcast will be out Monday or Tuesday of next week with the preview of this. We reach out to the homie Justin Ray.

I know that he will come through other ringer friends and family along the way. And then we'll be broadcasting semi-live from Augusta, Georgia many times throughout the week. So lots and lots to look forward to, my birdie buddies. But until then, please, let's all hit them straight out there.