Fairway Rollin' - Will the LIV-PGA Deal Happen? Plus, the State of LIV Golf With WSJ’s Andrew Beaton.

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

House and Hubbard start the pod by going over Tom Kim’s Shriners victory and Collin Morikawa’s Zozo Championship victory (03:00). They also discuss Nathan’s experience at Shriners and the energy around Lexi Thompson (13:50). Then, The Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Beaton joins the show to discuss the ongoing Ryder Cup fallout (19:10), the current state of LIV Golf (28:07), and if the LIV-PGA deal will even happen (37:33). Hosts: Joe House and Nathan Hubbard Guest: Andrew Beaton Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from Offguard, and I've got some exciting news. Offguard hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Gigi, is officially moving to our own podcast feed. We are now dropping two shows every week. Me and Pasha go way back and talk so much hoops already that we figured it was time to fire up the mics and let you in on these conversations. Every week, Pasha and myself will hit on the biggest stories happening around the league. Tap into the show twice a week on our new Offguard feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello, friends. this golf podcast unlike any other.

Yes, my friends, we have done it. We are back. This is your old friends from Airway Road. Golf podcast on the Ringer podcast network. I am your starter. Joe House, joined by my incomparable accomplice. Our PGA tour correspondent on the ground. Nathan Hubbard, my birdie buddies, we also have a guest today.

I'm not sure if you took note, but the Live tour wrapped up its first complete regular season this weekend and felt like a good time to check in on the state of the disunion between the PGA tour and Live and all things happening in live. We have coming to us from the Wall Street Journal, Andrew Beaton, joining us. But first, the date dog and I as a two ball. we're strolling out there. The leaf rule is in effect. Let's get this thing going. Nate Dog, how you doing, buddy? It's the FedEx Cup ball house. That's about how I'm doing. Hooray. Yeah. Neat. Oh, it's so fun. Yeah. It's fun. You know, the thing is, we've actually had some interesting fun endings to tournaments and a few things here and there, but it's, it's fun. You know, the thing is we've actually had some interesting fun endings to tournaments and a few things here and there, but it's, It's been a wash that the football, the football just takes over, doesn't it, house? It is undeniable that it takes over and it feels right.

I think it is correct. I don't have any argument with it. It should take over. It does take over. We'll let golf figure itself out for the fall or not. And maybe there will be, you know, occasional moments of interest in professional golf along the way. But we have had, you know, in these handful of weeks since the Ryder Cup, a couple of very good winners winning and, you know, taking down meaningful victories for each of them in circumstances that are, you know, perhaps if you want to like forecast how 2024 is going to go,

booing their their chances. We're talking about Tom Kim defending his title at the Shriners by dropping a 62-66 over the weekend. And then that was two weeks ago. Most recently, Colin Warcawa in Japan, winning the Zoso.

Nathan, that was his first win of any sort since the 2021 British Open. I was kind of shocked when I was doing the research on that. He had, of course, a victory on the DP World Tour, but that's not the PGA tour

and that's not the a major tournament. It was the whatever the season ending thing on the DP World Tour in Dubai. And that was potentially the springboard into his 2023 season

Colin Morikawa as he was on the back nine at the century in Hawaii, six strokes up on John Rom, and then collapsed down that stretch. and ran into headwins over the entirety of the balance of this calendar year. He had missed cuts at several of the elevated events,

and some of the skill set that he'd shown us looked like it had abandoned him at different points in time. And he was emotional Nate Dogg after winning Zozo. The press conference was kind of touching, huh? I think some of his... rumors of his demise had been somewhat exaggerated. He has still been one of the best ball strikers on tour. He struggled a bit, again, around the greens, which we've well documented.

He'd struggled to close. But I mean, speaking of headwinds, it was blowing 40 miles an hour on Friday in Japan. And he managed to sort of weather that storm. And I think if you woke up on Sunday, you weren't exactly sure who was going to pull this out. I mean, there's a part of me that felt strongly there. Eric Cole was going to win this golf tournament. He finished T3 at Shiner's. So he came in playing excellent golf,

and this guy's going to qualify for the Masters. I think he's going to play his way into the top 50. But it wasn't to be for Eric Cole finishing even, and Mark Howe just separated. I mean, a six-stroke win when you started the day, not in the lead is pretty damn impressive. And, yeah, I think, look, this is a guy who, you win the two majors early and you think, all right, here he goes, he's on his way.

It was him, it was Wolf, it was Victor, who all came in. And up until this week, you would have said, wow, Matt Wolf has basically disappeared. If you talk to Brooks Kepka, Morikawa has struggled and just can't seem to capitalize on being that guy. And then maybe you start to look back and go, well, the PGA, he won. There wasn't anybody there and took an amazing drive on the drive of the drive-a. par four in the open. Okay, he won, but was that in dominating fashion? You know, you can start to put the doubts in your mind for sure, especially given what we've seen from Victor of late in his ability to close. But I don't know. I also just want to be clear, this was not a massive strength

of field event. I mean, the guys that he beat are Eric Cole and Bo Hossler and Robbie Shelton and Ishikawa, so on and so forth. So this is not like this was an absolute dominating field. And that's what it's going to be for Morikawa. He's got to go head to head with the best guys in the sport and start to show that fire that got him those two majors. It does for me clean up a season of apparent disrepair, right? Because I expressed my skepticism around his rider cup, what I forecasted for him in the rider cup. And I, um, He didn't exactly cover himself in glory. He was fine, but he was not stellar.

It wasn't like, hey, remember who I am. I'm Colin Effing Moorcawa. So this is a great win in such a great stage. Victor absolutely jumped over Colin in the young guy sweepstakes. There's no two ways about it. I mean, you know, what Victor, he's in a different class right now. Well, he is. I mean, if you just look at Colin's season,

there were only two events where he lost strokes on approach, and he averaged almost a stroke gained on approach all season. I mean, he lost strokes in the travelers. He lost strokes in the open on approach. You'd say the same thing off the tee, where there were only two tournaments where he lost strokes off the tea. It's just around the green was up and down. And it just, the putter has just befuddled the guy.

It's just, he's gotten absolutely crushed. He gained over two shots on approach at Wells Fargo. He lost almost two and a half with the putter, and no surprise, he got cut, right? Across the board this year, that's been the club that's kept him from tucking in victories. But it is that crisp approach game and relative consistency off the tee. That's why you saw him tie for six at the Tour championship, T2 and Detroit. You know, way earlier in the season, you know, he had that run. run coming off century. He was second there. He was third at farmers. And we thought,

all right, here we go. He gets cut in Phoenix. T6 at Genesis. You think, all right, maybe we're going to see something out of him. He just was not able to put the ball in the hole from the green. Yeah, that's exactly right. So I'm happy to have this win because I like it when the best guys are entering the season more informed than not. And I do feel like, you know, there's a belt sitting up there, the best golfer, the best American golfer in the world belt, because Scotty,

Scottie has kind of left it sitting up there. It's kind of sitting out there. I do want to make sure that we talk about your experience in Las Vegas with Tom Kim. I mean, not directly with Tom Kim, but you were in Vegas, you were boots on the ground,

and congrats to Tom for defending his Shriners, title, congrats to him. He had top tens at both the U.S. Open and the British Open. This was his first full season on the PGA tour. When you and I were together in January of 2023, I speculated, you know, what kind of season might be seen from him. It was a learning season. It was a learning process for him for sure.

But look at this. You know, the talent shines through. Again, you know, to your point about the strength of field at Zozo in Japan, same thing as Shriners not not exactly an incandescent field he's not beating back you know the top 10 players in the world but you go

and defend a title that you defend a title and that's it that's the answer yeah right well I think I think that's right and coming into the season we had really high expectations because of what he had done to gain membership

getting two wins at the back part of last year one during the regular season and then one at Shriners in the fall. It was a, he was just kind of stuck in neutral. It felt through a ton of the season. Then suddenly we saw him, look, he played Masters okay. He was T-16 at the Masters, but then he was missing a couple of cuts and doing nothing. Showed up at the U.S. Open, T-8, and we thought, okay, maybe here we go.

But then he gets cut in Detroit, Rocket Mortgage, and you're like, all right, what's happening? Here's how he finished the season. T6 at Scottish, T2 at the Open Championship, 24th in FedEx, 10th at BMW, 20th at Tour, 18th, BMW, PGA, he played a tournament in France, T6, and then he wins Shriners. So he was top 25, really top tens in a bunch of those tournaments coming towards the back part of the season. Really, once he came over and got to the Open and played that tournament well, it was guns ablazing. So he's clearly figured something out. And like you say, it's going to be fun.

if these young guns come into the season all in form to watch these guys start in January. Now, I do think that's going to be the question, though, House. As we now are going to, listen, there's three more tournaments in the fall. There's tigers hit and giggle. But really, a lot of these guys, including one Justin Thomas, who we have not seen in the FedEx Cup fall, interestingly, a lot of these guys are taking a break right now. And we're going to find out whether the conventional wisdom that some of these golfs had that live used to exploit and pull guys away and say, listen, we're going to give you a full

off season where you can rest and recuperate and recover. And PGA Tour changed the season to start in January, didn't they, house? We're going to figure out whether that matters because there's guys this fall. It's not a coincidence. I don't think. Sahif Tagala wins in Napa. Did not have to be there. Already qualified for the big events, having been there in the top 30, wanted to be there to figure out how to win. Tom Kim, again, his game was trending in the right direction, wanted to be there, didn't have to be, got the win. Colin Morikawa, wanted to be there, get in front of those great fans in Japan, got the win. Eric Cole does not have to be there, but he's going to win rookie of the year. He's trying to play his way into the Masters.

He's showing up at these tournaments. I'm fascinated to see if some of these American golfers who performed just okay in the Ryder Cup. And you and I talked about whether there was a little too much of delay and the Europeans played the BMW altogether. It's going to be interesting to see how these Americans hit the ground running in January, having had all of this time off. Well, it is fun that the Euros do have what feels like, you know, the decided advantage, the head start.

We're expecting to see ROM and, and Rory and Victor at the top of leaderboards. And who has the belt on the American side is going to be part of our 2024 conversation. I want to make sure, because you were in Vegas and got to experience it. We need to talk about Lexi. We got to talk about Lexi.

Yes, we do. Because there wasn't a ton of energy around the entirety of the event. But I have to tell you, there was a ton of energy around Lexi. And it was a weird start to the tournament on that Thursday morning. the wind was blowing 2530 and it was cold.

And the guys who got the morning draw really had a tough go of it. Lexi had an afternoon draw, and it was a little bit easier. But there have been six other women, I believe, who've played PGA Tour events. And as you can imagine over the course of time, the responsiveness to that has been mixed. But, boy, was there a buzz? In the clubhouse, as people saw Lexi playing on Thursday and Friday,

the players in player dining were watching and cheering her on. On the range, the players were there. The crowds were there for Lexi. I mean, she was the story. I think there was some unfortunate stones thrown by very remote sections of Twitter golf saying, oh, she's taking somebody's spot. She was not taking somebody's spot. She was there on a sponsor exemption. And thank God she was there because she created some level of interest in an event that, you know, unfortunately, because of the changes in the schedule, has been a little flat on a course that otherwise is pretty cool coming down the stretch. You got drivable par four. You've got scorable par fives and threes. It's a really fun. Anything can happen down the stretch tournament, which is what we saw, you know, Tom Kim take advantage of. But the energy was great for Lexi. I hope we see. And you and I both were like, I don't know, she hadn't been playing great. She came in playing a little bit well, not unlike Tom Kim. So maybe we should have seen it coming. But she really held her own and outperformed a lot of guys. and I think under potentially different circumstances,

she really could have made the cut. There was a moment where you felt like she had a chance to do it. And I'm telling you, everybody on the course and the players were pulling for it, which was great to see. I was literally online, you know, enjoying the cut sweat myself because God forbid the golf channel, show it live as it effing happened.

It's just your product, Golf Channel and PGA Tour. It's just your product. You had the great idea. Somebody had the great idea to let her go ahead and compete. God effing forbid that we get to see her in circumstances where there really was a legit chance to make history. I really enjoyed watching it from my 17-inch computer monitor. It was awesome.

The featured group, I know. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Tor. As usual. But look, man, this is the, we talked about this when we were sizing up the tournament. and her role in it, this is exactly what the tour should be doing

with these events. There should be experimentation in the fall. More of it. What the hell? Why not? Let's have the mixed men, women playing together. Right. Because it's very clear they can do it. Lexi played better than almost half of that field.

Amazing. And like, let's get crazy with the format. Let's do, you know, four ball and foursums and have team competition. and all of it, right? Alternate shot and, you know, force them, everything. Do it all, right? I just think it is one of the only sports, you know, where the handicap system is in place to level the playing field for all. I'm going to play with my brother on Saturday. We are not the same level of golf, but we are going to be able to gamble, and it's going to be interesting, and it's going to have a competitive match, and it's not because of our genders. It's because of the handicaps. So it is something that I really think the tour has got to take a look at, in particular, because at this moment in time, Lexi Thompson is not even close to the best female golfer on the tour right now. I mean, she struggled to keep her card this year. So, you know, if you want, let's let's pull in the rest of the major winners from the year. Let's pull in, you know, let's pull in, Lee. Let's pull in just there has been a host of excellence on the women's side.

that I think it's really time to start showcasing. Because, to be totally honest, they're just outside of Lexi, there wasn't a ton of buzz on that course. It's Vegas, and people were more interested in the sphere on what emoji was blinking from the sphere than they were who was winning the golf tournament. Well, the tour, I'm sure, will eventually get around to figuring it out and doing absolutely the right thing. but it has some bigger stuff to sort out here, Nate Dogg.

And I want to bring in our guests. He covers sports and chess and chess fraud for the Wall Street Journal. He's been breaking stories all year about originally the fracas between the PGA tour and Livgolf. And now the potential unholy alliance. Welcome in, Andrew Beat, and how you doing, bud? I'm good. I think we're all trying to figure out what's coming in this, right? That's literally the thing.

Now, I want to start with your experience at the Ryder Cup because we had some murmurs this week, nothing that I would call aftershocks. They were tiny tremors, but there continues to be, as is always the case when the U.S. loses at the Ryder Cup. You know, some sort of knock-on stories, this week's stories,

Lucas Glover claims that he heard from real authorities on the matter that there was indeed some disagreements inside the U.S. team room, disharmonie potentially. Zander Shoffley tried to clean up his father's vomit mess and Rory and

Joe Likava had a drink together. So those I think are the headlines post-Rider Cup. Let's start with Lucas Glover's bit. And you were, you were on grounds in Rome, right? I was on the grounds in Rome, and I guess my takeaway is, would it at all be surprising if there were tensions within the U.S. team?

That wouldn't be shocking at all. But I think while everyone tries to look for explanations here and there, to me it boils down to something a lot simpler. If you look at the way the European players were playing, going into the Ryder Cup, that was a bunch of really hot golfers. And they were all in really good form, and we can debate about locker room divisions and what have you. But, you know, the guy who's supposedly part of that, Patrick Cantley, he goes out there and has one of the biggest moments, right? And you look at just the way Victor Hovlin was

playing down the stretch and so many of the European players. I mean, if you weren't a big golf fan, you might not have heard of Ludwig Aberg before this, but on the other hand, are we at all surprised if he's a top 20 golfer when we're having this conversation next year? Not at all. So to me, it just sort of boiled down to European players were hot and played really well. Is there something unique to the American team that creates that division? I mean, we didn't hear this coming out of the ladies locker room at the Solheim Cup. Like, Nellie and Lillevue weren't going at each other. Like, is there something related to the American men that you think is inherent to this?

Is it just that they don't have the culture and the reverence for the event? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because even if you think back a little while, there's questions about, you know, whether guys like Tiger and Phil have. reverence for the event if you go back to the 90s. But I also think there's just something to European players kind of have this beautiful, well-balanced mix in their games these days, where they grew up in Europe playing on these European courses, but they also now come to college in the U.S. are very familiar with the tracks here. And we used to talk about the European players as these soft hitters who could sort of figure out their way to dink and dunk their way to

buries and pars. But look at who some of the biggest drivers are, the Rory McElroy, or John Rom, they're Victor Hovlin. So they've kind of, I think, just cultivated this great mix on their team that I think has a versatility that the Americans don't necessarily match. Yeah, I argued with Nate, both in the run-ups of the Ryder Cup and after the Ryder Cup, around the U.S. preparation. And, you know, there's two elements to that. There was a long break between the last time most of the U.S. guys played competitive

golf and the Ryder Cup. And there also was not any indication that the U.S. team all came over, you know, in sufficient time to play multiple kind of practice rounds together. And, you know, we, I think Nate and I came to kind of agreement that unless the U.S. guys sort of reach the place where they're willing to come over two and a half weeks early and do some of the sort of the mini loops, the round, the competitive, grind stuff in Europe that we're probably going to be at a disadvantage on

European soil going forward because it's just like there is a natural home field advantage I think Andrew. And you talk about going over two and a half weeks early. Look at what percentage of the European team played in last year's Italian Cup at this same

golf course. It's something like four of the 12 golfers finished in the top eight of that tournament. So granted they are better than the standard fair European tour players, but also they're not thinking about this making a scouting visit a couple weeks in advance. They were playing this course a year in advance. And that's not even just their players. You had Eduardo and Dodo Molinari in the field. So if you think about the preparation, I think we should be thinking about this over a longer term scale for the American team.

You think there's any solve to it, though? I mean, I guess a number of the Europeans actually live in America, so maybe that takes away some of our home field advantage. But right now, the chatter coming out of this Ryder Cup, we should talk about Zander and cleaning up his dad's comments on the side. But the chatter coming out was really, you're almost expected now to win this thing at home. It's not even as big of an accomplishment to win it at home. The real question, and it was Max Homa who articulated this well. He's like, yeah, we want to win in two years, but I, coming for you in four years. I want to win on foreign soil. So are there significant changes other than showing up and doing the work and getting there and fighting through the jet lag that

you think the Americans need to be thinking about for four years from now? Or is there something, you know, did they need to blow up the team chemistry or the way that they put these things together with the analytics wrong? How do you think the Americans position themselves in particular to try to win on foreign soil in four years. And is it the same formula for Europe and two? Well, I think Rory McElroy actually articulated this really well at the tournament where he said the hardest feat in the sport these days is winning in a way rider cup. And, you know, that was also a pat on the back to themselves because they're the guys

who won. They're the guys who have won on U.S. soil in recent times. But I think they probably have to be looking at everything. I mean, the Europeans were not shy about their analytical department. and everything Dodo Malinari is doing beforehand. And also, I think there's probably just been some comfort in the team selection for the U.S. Because we've seen familiar names be trotted out there year after year. There are people who have won majors.

They're people who we inherently, I think, trust to go out there and play. But were they necessarily the best people in the best form this time around? I'm not sure. And I think when you talk about how in form the European players looked, it looked like that wasn't something the Americans were living up to. So I think you have to be looking at team selection, not in terms of just talent, but also who's hot. Well, let's talk about the Xander cleanup comments then. What do you make of him doing the rounds and getting out there publicly, trying to let a little bit of the air out of the balloon from what his dad said?

What do you make of the general sentiment there? Do you think there is this faction that feels like, hey, if there's money to be made, it should either go to our charities or to us, but not into the pockets. of organizers of the event. Does that feel like the essence of the argument that Zander's dad was making that Zander was cleaning up? Do you feel like there's any daylight between the two of them?

Zander did make an effort, though, to sort of walk it back a bit, didn't he? He did, but I also think those comments pointed toward the tension that has underpinned golf for the last year, but also the last few years, right? Which is that there's this money flowing into the game and are the players getting the right share of it?

And so while we're talking about this in terms of the Ryder Cup, you can't talk about this without thinking about Live Golf and thinking about everything LivGolf disrupted with its model. And granted, this is not Saudi Arabian money we're talking about with the Ryder Cup. But these are athletes, professional athletes, going to a sporting event and putting on an event that makes a lot of money for TV networks, for the host organizers. They're selling loads of tickets. So is it a ridiculous question to be talking about how that money is divided? I don't think it's unfair at all. As for the cleanup effort, I think that sort of comes with the territory of when you have a father who can be out there and a little bit brash.

We've seen the LeVar balls of the world be happy to talk. And I'm not saying that's what we're dealing with in the Shofley family, but you're also dealing with someone who is not afraid to put himself out there in the way that other parents of tour players tend to be. we're definitely dealing with the LeVar what are you talking about he is the LeVar ball of the tour that's exactly right I love it man Bonn Stefan do your thing Stefan

anyway I have this very important question to pose to you if if a golf tour has its season ending tournament and nobody sees it and nobody hears it did it happen did the live tour

you know finale actually take place. There are news reports that say so. There was virtually nobody on the grounds. The former president of the United States who owns the place and tried to charge them five million bucks to be there. He couldn't show up.

But apparently a team called The Crushers won it. Anyway, I'll stop now. Let's just sort of take stock of where we are with this live thing, if we might, Andrew. Yeah, I mean, first of all, my heartfelt apologies to all the Rangegoats fans. out there. I know it was a huge letdown.

It's okay. It's okay. Gooch apparently won the season title, I think. So maybe that's a plus? I don't know. Hey, this is team golf now. We're focused on the teams here. But yeah, does the tree fall in a forest?

There's a lot of money at stake, but one of the things Liv has just struggled to do since its inception is attract eyeballs. And I think one of the questions that has existed in everyone's mind, once the framework agreement was agreed to was by doing business with Live, the PGA tour in a way was kind of removing the Saudi stink that had hovered over all of this because they all of a sudden

pivoted from, oh my God, would never do business with such people to, oh, we're doing business with those people. And so would that change the public perception? And to me, I still, I have friends tour golf nuts and they're watching the tour on a weekly basis and there isn't much buzz about an event with an extraordinary amount of money on the line and also a lot of big name golfers. So I don't know if it's the type of thing that it just needs natural time or if it's just struggling to gain traction because people aren't turning on picks 11 to watch their golf action. It just feels not good. And it just does not feel like a product for which there is a ton of of demand, which is what we had been concerned about all along, which is that separating out

the best players in an already relatively small audience sport was going to just dilute the product for everyone. I will say, though, that there is no question. Bryson and his team won. Bryson shot a 58 on a golf course this year. Bryson played decent in the majors. Brooks Kepka won a PG. There are good players over there. There are also some dog shit players over there. You can say the same for the PGA Tour at the moment. Greg Norman was out and about. He was present, but not in the face,

but there continues to be this stubbornness around the format. And I know you've got some views on the World Golf Rankings decision to not award points to live. It is clear that Live could potentially make some change, to their format to make it more palatable to the world golf ranking so that their players could in turn be ranked and so that a good player like Taylor Gooch, who right now is not going to qualify for any of the majors, could in fact do that. Certainly there's no fan pushback against it because they're no fans. So what has to happen here for the legitimately decent players

who made the decision to go over there to get a chance to play against the other best players of the world in the world in the majors four times year, which now are going to really be the penultimate, you know, the ultimate tests of golf. You know, it's this funny thing where

I don't think any of us thought too critically about a golf body in Surrey, England, until all of this popped up. And now all of a sudden, the official world golf rankings are the secretive body that were all obsessed with their formula and their criteria. And I've left all of this

concluding that both sides are kind of right and both sides are kind of wrong. Because Liv fairly says that if you're not going to count these events, your rankings simply won't reflect the best golfers in the world. And that's true. Taylor Gooch is lower than he should be.

Excuse me. Dustin Johnson, pretty much every one of these guys should be higher because they're playing in golf events that are not accruing rankings points. On the other hand, it's extraordinarily complicated to figure out how you do the math and fairly quantify what a live event should be and how you quantify individually when players are also playing for a team. And even if live got points, if you just start to think about this rationally, they would be a fraction of the points of a PGA tour event. So even if they got points, if you reasonably think about this, it would be a fraction because on the one hand, as you said,

there's good players and there's a lot of really poor players. So the strength of field would not be great. It's good to have Brooks Kepka. It's bad to have Chase Kepka. Is the manifestation of that over the next year that the majors are going to rethink who they let in? Like shouldn't the majors have a few wild card picks such that Taylor Gooch and a couple other guys from the live tour

actually play the Masters. Isn't that in the master's interest? Do you see that happening? I think it's in everyone's best interest to see that happen because I think something we saw with the designated events is that something like that was long overdue

because what makes the majors, the majors isn't just that there are four awesome tournaments. It's that historically, the four tournaments where all the best golfers showed up. So that meant we were watching the best of the best. And on a week-to-week basis on the tour, we were not seeing that, And we're definitely not seeing that now that there's this divide.

But if you're the masters, I think it does it start to be a tricky thing if we say we're going to give five live people invites? That could be thorny. But as you said, wild card bids, could they announce that they get a certain number of sponsor exemptions? Yeah, I mean, they arbitrarily let in a lot of different amateurs. They give themselves the leeway to make those invites. It wouldn't be too far afield at this point for them to rise above it and say,

hey, we want the green jacket to go to the best guy. And so we got to make sure we have all the best guys here. And they're not above tweaking these things on a year to year basis. Heck, the U.S. Open made basically a rule that should be called the Taylor Gooch rule in order to exclude him from the U.S. Open last year. So they're not above. It's not like these are these criteria that have been set in stone for decades and it's some old stuffy golf, what have you.

This is something that they're clearly open to tweaking and altering. And it should be in their best interest. But at the end of the day, the ranking point, thing is still going to be a stick in Liv's Craw because they have a lot of things to sort out in order to get there. And I guess that just leaves it up to the question of will there be these exemptions. Yeah. And just to be clear, both of you guys have reflected this, there's absolutely nothing prohibiting any of the majors from creating whatever criteria they want on whatever basis, on whatever time frame. If they elect

to invite these live golfers and they can come up with whatever, you know, qualification, you know, quality of play level they want, there's nothing impeding any of them. The RNA can do it. The PGA of America can do it. The USGA can do it. The Green Jackets can do it. And they could do it next week. And they could all say, you know, if you've won a measure before, now like, you know,

Patrick Reed and Dustin Johnson are in the Masters every year because they've won. the green jackets. But, you know, if the other events want to grab somebody like a Taylor Gooch or an up-and-coming player like a Joachian Neiman or Mito Pereira, you can easily come up with the qualification criteria, look at something that occurred over the past five years, and narrowly define it to grab those guys. There's nothing, nothing legal, nothing, you know, but the point is for the entertainment product, we want it. That's what we want. That's all, that we care about. We want to see the best guys play against each other. And we've seen some other folks like Data Golf, like Sports Illustrated, try and come up with these parallel kind of ranking

systems, ranking metrics that capture some of the live stuff. I barely care about it. It's true that we are in this weird position because the OWGR was the state-of-the-art, you know, measuring stick and it was a perfectly fine way of capturing the best players over a two-year rolling period. And if it's true, as Phil Mickelson says, that there's part of the TV contracts, you know, are driven by the quality of, you know, fields as measured by OWGR participation. Okay. You know, we ought to be able to figure it out. But Andrew, the real question is, are the, is the PGA tour and the Liv Tour and the Liv Tour.

What is it even happening? Figure this deal out. Is there going to be a deal? It's oddly quiet, right? And I think one of the things that has become clear very much in the last months ever since the Framework Agreement is the Framework Agreement, there was such a frenzy.

Everyone including me was like, holy crap, what the heck is happening? And then as the dust settled, maybe it took a couple days, but maybe a week. And then it's like, oh, they didn't really agree to much. They agreed to try and agree on something. That's it. They agreed to stop suing each other.

That was the agreement. The agreement is we're going to stop suing the daylights out of each other. That's all. And that was a huge win for both of them. I mean, that lawsuit was the biggest game of chicken I've ever seen. They both desperately won out of it and just kept driving towards each other. And they're both probably just going to ram into each other and it end up a complete disaster for both sides. So they're both thrilled to be out of that.

And now that they are, there's probably less than incentive to make a deal. But there's so much for them to figure out. And money's not even necessarily the hardest part of it. And that is the strange thing. There is just so many thorny questions beyond money, including what's the pathway for live players back onto the tour? What does any potential financial punishment look like? Is there any way to compensate the Rory McElroy's

of the world, which is a question that gets some eye rolls on one side, but also it's something that the players have to be thinking about. And then one thing that's been made clear by that framework agreement is that no matter what happens, the PIF still wants team golf in some form to be part of this future, whether that is through live itself or through reviving other team events or integrating team events into the tour calendar. And figure, out how many of those, when they happen, who's participating. That's not an easy thing either. And oh, there's also this launch of this Tiger Rory Golf League that we have no idea what it's going to look like happening in January. So there's just so many moving parts all against the backdrop

that even if they do agree to something, the DOJ could nicks it all. Well, I think the DOJ is paying very, very close attention at this point, which is why there were some murmurs about other potential interested parties, including Endeavor and a few others. What's the latest that you're hearing about potential other funding sources? Is it just gone quiet since there were those leaks during the Ryder Cup? Or is there anything else that would indicate that Monahan and the tour have looked for a second suitor? Because that's really how you would get leverage in that negotiation with the Saudis, correct? That's definitely how you'd get leverage. And what I'd say is I don't know for nothing certain enough to share here, but I think there's probably some angst that other suitors weren't contacted

and engaged with previously. And I think you saw that question asked on Capitol Hill when the PGA tour execs were called up and they asked, did you look into other suitors? But it's also this very strange thing because a traditional investor would need a very clear plan and path for them to earn good on their money. The financial equation is so much different when it's PIF investing, not just because they have such an extraordinary amount of money.

I mean, that's a big part of it, but they also see alternative halo effects, potentially, from being involved in this game and involving, whether it's their sponsor or like we've seen with the Ramco series or what have you, it may not all about,

be about money to the party that has the most money. And so we're not working on a level playing field here. No. And now we've got the sprinkled in fairy dust of a awful tragedy and a geopolitical incident that, you know, some are suggesting was, you know, triggered to, as a response to a potential Saudi recognition of Israel. I mean, there is so much at play now in this deal, given that The underpinning of it for the PIF was access and recognition and to be in the room where it happens. And a very smart strategy for any business in that situation. But when you layer in the geopolitical considerations, I think it's gotten even more complicated over the past month. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

And part of me also wonders if both because of that or just because there's so many different things to figure out if maybe we see an extension on this end of year deadline, because at the end of the day, that's kind of an arbitrary deadline. But my biggest takeaway is that no matter what happens with this deal or not over the next couple months, is that golf for at least pretty much the next year figures to look pretty much the same, given that we, even once there's a deal done, if it gets done, a DOJ review takes many months, potentially years. years, Live golf by all indications is gearing up for a 2024 season. So it's not like we're seeing it shuttered if it gets shuttered immediately. And it's not as if we definitely see a way that if

there's a deal, the guys are coming back immediately. So what we're talking about isn't just going to change when we flip the calendars. What we're talking about is a horizon that extends into 2025 and 26. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I mean, I was going to pose to you the question, would you be surprised if they announced a new deadline that was 1231, 2024? Because it's really not even a reasonable amount of time, a full calendar year to sort out, you know, a lot of the big moving pieces. And if the antitrust element of this is going to be, um, a literal deal breaker, then other money coming in is one way to defies that risk. And if the tour has genuine interest from other potential investors, then there is a mechanism

by which potentially everybody could come together. But I honestly, it's already, it's October the 24th. It's going to look the exact same next year. We're going to have the same, you know, there's like slight tweaks to the PGA tour schedule and Liv is going to do its thing. And it must be the case, Andrew, that the Saudis, well, maybe this is a question. I'll put it to you in the form of a question. Can they live with another year like what they just had? Are they willing to spend the money for another year like what they just had of nobody watching the product, the product being as an entertainment vehicle like not entertaining?

making $35 million. It's their money. It's their decision to make. Are they comfortable running it back for a whole another year? I think one of the things that's interesting is in some sense a lot of the money has already been spent, right?

I mean, when they sign these players to contracts, in most cases for the big names, these weren't one-year deals. So when you paid exorbitant sums of money to the Phil Mickels and Dustin Johnsons and Brooks Kefkas and Bryson de Shambos and Cameron Smith of the world, they have a huge amount of money that's already been committed.

And so, yes, there's the outrageous amount of prize money at tournaments and the cost of putting on tournaments. But a lot of that money has been spent. And I think one of the things that's interesting to me is I think in order to possibly satisfy the DOJ, and this is me pretending to be a lawyer, and I'm not a lawyer, I have just covered this. Disclaimer. But it would also probably look bad from an antitrust perspective if you're not a lawyer. if you're talking about doing a deal with your biggest rival, which is already a big red flag,

and then you just close the tent of one of them. And so there's probably some interest in it, if they are trying to satisfy regulators, to keep the show going, because you don't want to look like someone who live had accused of being a monopolist, then squashes its chief rival. But wouldn't it be live its own self squashing it?

Like, you know, you made the observation very, sound and salient observation that part of the appeal for the Saudis was the halo effect. Nathan and I have been arguing vociferously that it is entirely halo effect. It is all halo effect. There is no other value to

the Saudis of putting on these nonsense golf exhibitions other than entering the Western world as a potential sort of entertainment vehicle. It would be, under my way of viewing it, the Saudis saying, good,

golly, you know, we've put, they probably put three billion in by now, right, for the first 18 months of player contracts and all of the startup money to get into these, they're paying Trump $5 million per venue. Like that, they ain't doing that no more. But like, you know, all of that startup costs, they have to look at themselves hard at the mirror and say, can we live with another year of this kind of money outflow? Is the, is, the is the juice worth to squeeze? And that, if they make the election to like ramp it down considerably or maybe, you know, six worldwide events or something, they have the guys under contract and, you know, by golly, try and make something of it. But if it's their decision,

that doesn't really impact the antitrust element, does it? I think that could depend on if the deal gets done. But I see this as they've committed enough money. they have the players under contract. To me, my gutton sync says this lasts another year at minimum, and then we're starting to look again at 2025 as for, all right, is this thing going to still exist then? Because, I mean, the tour executives since then have made it clear that they're not certain how Live will fit into a picture

if they were actual partners. But given that we don't know if they will become actual partners vis-a-vis either the deal or at the Justice Department, for probably until at least a year from today, I think you probably see this happen for at least 2024. Maybe it's scaled back, who knows, but they just hired a new COO this week. Is that their third or their fourth?

It's sometimes hard to lose count with all the churn over there. But I don't think you're doing that if you're planning on closing shop on January 1. Right, agreed. Well, we're going to find out, aren't we, House? I mean, that's it. It's all jump ball. I honestly, just, you know, the experience of listening to Andrew speak and then looking down on my computer and seeing the date, it's like, oh, this is the way, we're doing this.

We're running the whole thing back next year. There's no way to get any of these large moving pieces resolved in a manner that's going to create an opportunity for them to compete in any way that's different from the way that professional golf was just competed in all of, of, 23, the tour has a fully baked, fully mature schedule. It has all the sponsors lined up that it wants to have lined up. And they can have these continuing conversations with folks like the endeavors of the world about additional, you know, kind of investment. They do have to solve that problem. They created for themselves of gigantic purses, purses that rival the live purses. They got to come up with that money somewhere because they had that international rights deal fall through the deal where they sold

international streaming rights and Discovery Time Warner said thanks but no thanks to that thing. So the money's got to come from somewhere. I bet they continue to talk deals. Andrew, give us one forecast for 2024.

Look into your crystal ball and give us one sort of read on the situation that you think is likely to come to pass. I really like Nate's idea of introducing some sponsors exemptions for the majors. And listen, this is the green jackets at Augusta National. They could create a rule saying the best two giraffes in the world at golf could be playing in the masters of 2020. They can do whatever they want and nobody's going to stop them. And the majors are fortunate in one way in that most of the top live players have some sort of exemption for now.

and honestly, the biggest one of those is Phil having miraculously won a PGA championship at age 50, so he gets to still keep playing all of them beyond the Masters, where he's in for life. So most of the top players are playing, but if Taylor Gooch wins a PGA championship next year, are any of us surprised? No, none of us are. And so for those players, the players who are probably closer to 15 to 30 in the world, not the 1 to 15 or even the big names like Bryson de Chambot who maybe could fluctuate in the rankings because he's so wildly

inconsistent, but create those exemptions. It's the majors, we should be seeing all the guys. I love it. I totally agree with that. Nathan, what's your forecast for 2024? Complete chaos and malaise. Complete chaos and malaise. I mean, look, that's, that's, we're in unanimous agreement once again,

shocker here on the Fairway Rollin. Well, Andrew, you have a standing invitation. As this thing continues to develop, we need your insights, your continued breaking news stories along the way. We'll be paying attention. Thanks for coming on and joining us today. Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely.

And there we have it, my Eagle Enthusiast, my par-saving pals, my Bertie buddies. Another edition of Fairway Rowland in the books, Our thanks to our producer, Eduardo Ocamp. Our thanks to Andrew Beaton coming from the Wall Street Journal. And joining us, it is Fall Golf. The Leaf Rule is in effect, which means just put your ball down around where you think it should have been. And by all means, please, let's all try and hit them straight out there.