Fairy Tale Fix - 20: Snake-Smiting Gender-Switching (ft. Heidi from Fantastic Worlds)

Episode Date: June 15, 2021

Abbie tells one of the potentially best fairy tales of all time if only everyone hadn’t behaved so badly, East O’ The Sun and West O’ The Moon. Kelsey retells an existentially traumatic yet beautiful tale from our favorite known bisexual disaster, Hans Christian Andersen, The Teapot.

Leave the poor snakes alone. Right? Stop doing it. It's not good. They're having a grand old time. Just leave them be. here we are for episode 20 of fairy. A very special episode of Fairytale Fix. Because once again, we have been joined by a guest. Who is it?

Our guest is you, Heidi. It's me? Wait a second. I'm not normally on the show. No, you're actually not normally on the show. Although we do talk about it. Well, in my mind, I guess I am. We do talk about it every episode.

Well, I do love this show quite a bit. Thank you. Introduce yourself. Who are you? What are you doing here? My name is Heidi Owens. I use she, her pronouns. I, in honor of Pride Month, I will just go out here and say I am a uh transgender demisexual lesbian i am a super fan of fairy tales and mythology and any sort of folk tales like that like i've been able to escape into since ever since i was uh and then i turned 20 and uh stopped having time for anything and i found podcasts that's how it goes accurate yeah here we are 12

years later and i have renewed my love of fairy tales and storytelling. Yeah, Heidi is actually on another podcast with Abby. Heidi, tell us a little bit about this incredible podcast that you're on. Well, this incredible podcast that I'm on is called Far Beyond the Stars. It is a story of rags to riches to ruin and revenge and it's about a crew of misfits um aliens who are working their nine to five jobs and get screwed out of a paycheck and have to figure out how to get paid i play the mechanic she is always super awkward she's a uh seven and a half foot tall crystal rock person who very cool glows from within and uh is this deep indigo blue has great relationships with the other crew

members though is super anxious about being abandoned and uh is always kind of worried that they're going to find out bad things about juror and kick juror off the crew this is not coming from a place of reality in the slightest uh-huh no uh like no one ever in history has ever really poured their own soul and their own awful existential fears and questions into a TTRPG character. It's not done. No, no, no one uses TTRPGs for any sort of intense personal therapy. I don't have an entire theory based around the idea of using TTRPGs as therapy. To like work through your personal trauma.

Yeah. Or help actual clients work through their personal trauma. You should write a paper about that because I would read it. I did. Did you write a paper about that? Yeah, I actually did in college for my grad school. Oh my God. I would have to track it down if you wanted to read it,

but I could. Would you let me read it? It's okay if you don't want me to. But I love that theory because I've got my own ideas about how we use TTRPGs to work out our questions about ourselves, in addition to working out any trauma or questions about our worldview that we need to work through, but also just questions about like, who am I? What kind of person do I want to be? What kind of person do I think I already am? And then making a character and exploring different aspects of your own personality or identity is something that I think TTRPGs are really valuable for. So I guess to give people context who don't know me, I am also a licensed professional therapist or counselor, actually.

Yes, that is important to note. So I spend a lot of time thinking about therapeutic practices and how to utilize different avenues to help people work through their mental health, work through trauma, and kind of develop better interpersonal communication skills. And the things that are really nice about TTRPGs is that they're functionally a form of narrative therapy, which is all about rewriting your own story and trying to fit, when it comes to dealing with trauma, trying to fit those pieces of trauma into your self-identity. trauma like trying to fit those pieces of trauma into your into your self-identity so by doing like a ttrpg you get this sort of group narrative experience where you're creating a narrative you can introduce elements of yourself and things that are relevant to your experience as a person and use that to work through and process you know and it can be processing in the sense of actually developing better communication skills or you know having it can be processing in the sense of actually developing better communication skills

or you know having characters who experience similar traumas and you figure out how they would handle it and then that can help you then understand how you might handle it and have it make sense in your own life that's really cool that's such a great just way to process all of that i mean that's really fun well i don't know about fun but makes it it could make it fun i have been listening to far beyond the stars and it is awesome i love sarin that's the character that heidi plays um she's great she's also got a very adorable jam bot that's like i guess like a little robot that like follows jira around and will play music and stuff which is really fun i actually wanted to so i was telling you how i wanted to get you first there and i love the saren's voice um

i was like that would that be amazing if Heidi could do the Saren voice for her fairy tale? I suppose I could, actually. You could read the whole thing as Saren. So good. Definitely give

Far Beyond the Stars a listen. It's really fun. I actually don't play tabletop RPGs and I've been enjoying it very much. Although I did actually play my very first game. I was just about to say you do now.

I popped my TTRPG Cherry and played with one of our patrons over the weekend. It was really fun. And listening to Far Beyond the Stars actually helped me out a ton. I felt very prepared for having a character, like kind of coming up with a little bit of backstory and trying to add personality into the game. So it was really fun. Okay, but you have to tell me what is your character's name, class, race? What's their deal? Let me see if I can even remember. So I named her Minerva.

She is a high elf wizard. Level one, obviously. What game did we play? What was it? So we play with our patrons. And then I graciously allow them to pick the game. And they picked D&D 5e for our Patreon game. So that is what we were playing. Yeah, and it was really fun. So I basically kind of

based her off of a character I really like in Diablo 3, which is Li Ming. She's like the female wizard. And I really love her. She's really funny. She's really conceited, but that's because she's so awesome. So that's kind of what I based it off of. I love elf wizards because they're, they live so long that of course they're going to end up being conceited. I also have a female elf wizard who is,

she's not necessarily conceited, but she is very prim and proper and then uses puns for all of her incantations nice nice amazing so incredible i love that yeah i had the idea since like minerva has been around for so long for like hundreds of years i thought it would be funny if she were just like also really aloof because she had so i picked a character that was already like pre-made and she had terrible charisma it was like negative one or something so i was like it's probably because she's been around for so long she just has forgotten how to like she just is super aloof and doesn't really know how to like communicate with people that

makes sense actually because i mean one of the things that at least in Pathfinder they talk about with elves is the fact that they get this any of any elf that spends a lot of time around non elves gets this sense of forlorn people would stop interacting and caring so much about other people become more distant and aloof. particularly when it comes to shorter lived peoples you just try really hard not to get too attached to them they're going to come and they're going to go and it's best not to get too attached to you know human companions because they're they're going to be present for a very short time in in the overall like span of years that an elf has which i think is an interesting thing to play up caden played a character that was a what a sentient suit of armor a sentient suit of armor basically yeah which sounded awesome there's a there's a race called warforged in the game setting that's just a sentient suit of armor it's's cool. Yeah. So shout out to Ricky, our patron that picked the game. He played a Dragonborn, which is also extremely cool.

Yeah. So it was really fun. So shout out to Ricky for picking the game and getting me into it. Surprisingly, not that hard to do good with RPG rpgs if tt rpgs if you um are just willing to to get into the role play like you don't need to worry about the rules as much because people will hold your hand through that you know you just have to have to be like what is my character and what would they act like what would they want to do and then can i do this and then someone will tell you like yes or no no, based on the rules. The rules are the easy part. I think I think I agree with you, Heidi, that if you can just kind of get into it, embrace the roleplay and embrace predicting what

you think your character would do in any given situation, then then it's really it's really easy and it's really fun to play TTRPGs. That said, I am I have not played D&D very often. I think this is my third time playing D&D because I typically prefer Pathfinder if I'm going with one of sort of the mainstream TTRPG settings. So I don't know the rules very well at all. Heidi, I feel like since you are on our fairy tale podcast, I feel like it is a requirement for me to ask you, who is your favorite fairy tale princess off the top of my head i don't have like fairy tale like favorite fairy tale princess

in like the realm of fairy tales disney kind of co-opted a lot of them currently my favorite not quite a princess is uh moana oh my gosh moana's awesome she counts she's not a princess uh she's she's the daughter of the village elder uh if you have an animal sidekick and you wear a dress was was that it you're a princess yeah something like that you wear a pretty dress and you have you have an I want song and you are going a lot of people in a lot of different instances but the entire thing is that she's trying to return this mystical rock to to the goddess of the earth to restore the the life essence of the earth and um there's a sort of hate-filled rock monster volcano rock monster that is preventing her from getting there and it takes her a moment to realize

that like this person is like this rock monster is the same as the earth goddess and there's just this moment where it's like oh yeah like doesn't matter what you look like on the outside the beauty and like you are still the same person on the inside like that you were before and to me as a trans person there are like elements of like seeking and trying to figure out who you are how do you relate to yourself how do you how do you see yourself how do other people see you and how can you be you know that version of yourself and so like i relate to moana i relate to tafiti um i don't relate to Maui. Like, he's funny, but who could?

He's perfect, and you're welcome for everything. You're welcome. Yeah, I love him. Other than that, as a kid, I probably would have said Mulan. Again, strong trans themes. Yes, certainly. But I was always a bigger fan of Hercules and Aladdin as a kid. Neither of them are princesses, though. Honestly, I kind of feel like they still count.

Yeah. I guess fairytale hero might also be a good question. Because I don't know, I really like both of their movies a lot and i'm realizing now that pretty much all of the the stories that i'm that i relate to are stories about finding yourself and figuring out who you are as a person like i mean hercules's entire thing is like i will go the distance i'll find my way someday i'll be somewhere where i belong you know and aladdin takes so long trying to figure out who he is uh and trying to be someone that he's not before he just gets to live as himself i will say the other you always you always ask about villains yes that was actually that's our next that's our next question who's

your favorite villain hands down without a doubt, favorite Disney villain, probably actually villain in anything, is Maleficent. A beautiful choice. A fine choice. You are a woman of discerning tastes. Thank you. And not explicitly the animated Maleficent. Angelina Jolie, the Maleficent movies were great. I have no problems with them.

I mean, there are probably problems to be had with them, but I enjoyed them. But they're fine. They're enjoyable. But like, they're not the same character. I also really love the way that Maleficent somehow over the course of like 15 years has been one of the primary villains in the Kingdom Hearts franchise. And like, she's,

she's just kind of working behind the scenes. I don't know. There's a lot of stuff with her that is like really fascinating to me, but I just, I love her aesthetic. If I could just be like, live in a dark tower with like massive black horns and, and a Raven friend turned into a dragon,

whatever the hell I wanted. Like that excellent long black Cape with the purple inside. And a raven friend turned into a dragon whenever the hell I wanted. Absolutely. That excellent long black cape with the purple inside. Perfect. Chef's kiss. Perfect. Excellent choice. Maleficent. Her aesthetic is impeccable.

Her motives make sense to me. Yeah. It's actually quite well documented that pretty much all Disney villains are queer coded in some way. Yes. And I'm. Yeah. I think it's really easy to look at Maleficent and be like, oh, yeah, like she's just the lesbian that living alone in her tower that's been rejected by everybody else. That isn't invited along with like the other fairies.

Yeah. To the party. She's alone and she's bitter and she's going to curse all your children. I mean, rightly so. I honestly, well, I mean, there's also a theory about one reading of the Sleeping Beauty story that not inviting the wicked fairy was actually a serious breach of medieval etiquette. That not inviting an important person in your region to the christening of the princess actually is a pretty serious breach of etiquette the fact that she shows up

uninvited and they could have just let her stay and not made a not made a thing about it because in the original fairy tale i think she does show up and and intends to offer a real gift to the child anyway even though they didn't invite her and they still try to throw her out i need to reread the original story i'm excited to do that one but apparently but but according to but according to actual medieval etiquette um she was actually pretty justified i mean and that makes sense throwing a curse out there you know first off not just not inviting someone but also like then being mean about the fact that they show up super awkward guest laws yeah guest laws exactly you know and and so then you kind of get what's coming to you i just love the evil version of maleficent that's just she's i like the idea

that she's just petty and just mad like I don't really want to feel sad for her I just want her to like be reveling in her own evil glory and be like I'm so awesome that's my my favorite version of Maleficent for sure also I this is sort of tangentially related to Maleficent but if anyone um is out there interested in reading a great uh take on the sleeping beauty story uh that is very queer and has actually been done in comic book form and book form check out the sleeper and the spindle by neil gaiman i i don't want to give away too much but aurora's or sleeping beauty's true love is a woman in that one. I love it. Is rescued by a woman specifically.

Awesome. I had no idea he wrote this. I really enjoy Neil Gaiman's books. I consider myself a fan. How did I not know that he wrote this book? All right. Well, shall we get into it? I am so excited for you to tell us a tale.

Yeah. So I guess before I tell any stories, I am hijacking your podcast and changing it from fairy tale fix to mythology fix. Since I couldn't find any fairy tales that were short enough that I could read them on the podcast, I did consider The Sleeper and The Spindlele but it is a bit long to read as a in an hour-long episode uh what did you pick then and i don't know i think mythology counts as like it's in the realm yeah yeah absolutely still within the realm of folklore and fairy tale yeah i think that i think that fairy tales, like the distinction for me between fairy tales and mythology is that mythology often was about gods, whereas fairy tales often are just about like the various creatures that are around or gods and heroes per se. two or three stories depending on how long it takes me to read through them um that are all focused on um trans characters in uh in greek mythology um i'm gonna say right up front that i'm gonna give a trigger warning for sexual assault um i mean all you had to say was Greek mythology. And I got it. We appreciate the trigger warning. Thank you. But the additional trigger warning is necessary for anyone that isn't super familiar with Greek mythology. Yeah. And I probably, with some of these, I will be focusing primarily on just like the initial pieces of their stories.

So the first story that I'm going to be telling today is the myth of Tiresias. Do either of you know anything about Tiresias or have guesses as to what this story is about? I am not familiar with Tiresias. Nope. I don't think I've heard that one either. And I'm a little surprised because I was a bit of a Greek mythology nut when I was a kid. But I don't remember that one. I think I mostly read all of Zeus's stories for some reason, because those are wild. Yeah, there's something. All right right how many predictions are you gonna give us one each for each story sounds fair i predict that tiresias does not have a happy ending

okay i predict that tiresias runs afoul of a god and is transformed into an animal okay into an animal explicitly damn it no i take it uh wait hang on you said it's a trans story so he runs a vowel of a god and is transformed into a woman is my new prediction all right because you said that but it's it's okay if you tell me that nobody no take backsies i mean i i am totally fine with that okay this story i believe i'm not sure where it was originally recorded um i initially picked it up off of out of robert graves greek mythology and i'm currently reading from a summary of the story on interest interesting literature.com okay and in greek mythology and literature tiresias was a seer a soothsayer uh in other words a prophet but how he attained the gift of prophecy is a curious one there are

in fact several versions of his story And this is the most famous one. Uh, the young Tiresias one day while walking through the mountains, saw a pair of serpents mating and being struck by disgust or something. There's no real explicit reason why he kills one of them. I have heard this story. And, and perhaps because he wounded the serpents tiresius was transformed into a woman yeah and it's in various versions it's uh harrah explicitly is annoyed at him for having killed the snake and others it's just unspoken. And then a few years later, when she came upon two other snakes mating in the same spot as before, she hit them again and was turned back into a man.

You know, this act of snake-smiting gender switching made Tyrese... Title of the episode. Yep, title of the episode, Snake Smiting Gender Switching. I'm going to start the sentence over because it's very fun to say and I need to say it all at once. Otherwise, my brain won't go forward. This act of snake smiting gender switching made Tiresias something of a celebrity among the gods. snake's mighty gender switching made tiresias something of a celebrity among the gods so that the goddess hera called upon tiresias to intervene in an argument she was having with the god zeus hera and zeus had uh had started arguing with one another about who enjoys sex more men or women

interesting um hera personally believed that men enjoyed sex more than women perhaps because she was with zeus and he was always off philandering with someone else. Kind of a selfish thing. Yeah, I think Zeus specifically just enjoys sex the most. Like Zeus enjoys sex the most out of everybody always. Yeah, I don't think it's a gender thing. I think that's just Zeus. Now, Zeus, however, you say that he enjoys it more than anyone else he actually thinks that women enjoy sex more than men because he thinks they're enjoying

the sex with him him yeah exactly of course you understand where his mind is at apparently during the several years that tiresiresias lived, she was something of a harlot. And I think she may have been like a temple harlot of some kind. I'm not entirely sure. So like an actual sex worker? Yeah. I was wondering what she was doing during that three years. This summary definitely skips over that. And it's quite unfortunate, but I have also not been able to find a better summary. So I want details about her time as a Temple Harlot. Yes, please tell me like what exactly was she doing, you know, and how was she enjoying her

time? But basically, she was having a bunch of sex. That seems to be the case based off of the things that I have read. And given her unique position as having experienced sex as both a man and a woman, Zeus and Hera figured that she, or he, or they even, would be the ideal adjudicator for this particular quarrel.

However, Tiresias' answer didn't please Hera. Oh no. He said that of the pleasure derived from sex, nine parts belonged to women and only one part to men. Hera, in anger, annoyed that she'd lost her wager with her husband, struck Tyreseus blind. Yeah, that's par for the course for her. Yeah. I mean, it's not the worst thing she's ever done, to be fair.

No, not by far actually uh tiresias got off and zeus perhaps happy that he won the bet um also maybe feeling sorry for tiresias uh couldn't just cancel out what another god had done, did have to leave Tiresias stuck with his blindness, but he did decide to compensate for it by giving Tiresias the gift of foresight. So Tiresias became a seer who could see the future and also long life, seven times the normal human lifespan. Wow. Which is how Tiresias ends up being the prophet who is responsible for telling Oedipus' dad.

I forgot that Tiresias is the one that kicks off Oedipus. Just a little bit. So I think you both get points in this because it's unarguable that, yeah, a god got angry and transformed Tiresias. And also Tiresias ended up somewhat worse off for wear. I was going to say, I don't know if having foresight really sounds like a good thing. At least the gift wasn't like, you have foresight and no one listens to you. Which is what someone else has. Poor Cassandra.

Cassandra. That poor woman. Just saying Greek mythology should just come with like its own trigger warnings that just automatically pop up everywhere. It's, yeah. Anyway, that's the story of Tiresias. Yeah, that was really fun. I need to read more Greek mythology because every time it's so interesting. Although, as usual,

I do want more details. I want to hear straight from Tiresias, all of their experiences with that. Cause it sounds like it'd be really interesting to swap genders for like a few years. And also, well, what does Tiresias have against snakes?

Actually, maybe I don't want to hear from them. Maybe they suck. Yeah, maybe they do suck maybe i don't want to hear from them maybe they suck yeah maybe they do suck i don't know but like i do love snakes there are versions of it where on the return the second time tiresia specifically leaves the snakes alone and that act of benevolence is what what returns her to a man. I'm having a hard time fixing this one. I spent a lot of time thinking about my fix for the other stories. Uh huh. But I think that perhaps because I'm trans and not gender fluid, like I would probably just be like Tyrese is like asks to continue living as a woman and is like, and that's the reward rather than, you know, foresight.

continue living as a woman and is like and that's the reward rather than you know foresight it's like if at least if she was going to be blind maybe she could have spent her life the rest of her life having better sex there you go that's a great fix i absolutely love that fix yeah that's a perfect fix um that that is also that is also how I would have liked to fix it, is that she found the experience transformative in a lot of ways, and that would be the way that she would want to be. magical gender swapping thing maybe she just you know wandered through the woods and one day i was like damn i think i'm a woman and then just like came home and like literally just did the gender transition throughout life and then like no that's really interesting yeah that story is excellent because i mean because i still like it i still like it the way it is too with uh tyreseus being a gender fluid icon yeah absolutely there's i like, you know, both of these experiences were great. This was fun for this reason. But I also enjoyed this.

I like that for them too. I really enjoy that they get to just kind of live their best life. You know, if they're gender fluid. Yeah. Maybe the ability to switch back and forth as they please would have been a cool gift. It's either Greek or Roman mythology has that ability and uses it to get back at her ex-husband.

Sure. Like, that's not a story I'm telling today. That is. Yeah. Also, that sounds about right for greek and roman mythology you have like miraculous cosmic powers that you use for petty vengeance all right uh story story number two lay it on us this is another one that you may never have heard of uh this is the myth of kainous it's specifically spelled c-a-e-n-e-u-s if you would both like to give me transformation or not transformation but predictions predictions my prediction

is that none of the gods are involved this time okay can i predict that kainous is really problematic uh you can absolutely predict that. This story originally comes from Ovid's Metamorphoses, which is the book of transformations. Originally, I think Ovid being a Roman poet. And Ovid tells the transformation of Cainus. For Cainus was born female, but was transformed into a man. for Kainous was born female but was transformed into a man. Kainous was commonly said to have

been the daughter of Elitus, a Lapith king, and Hippeia, making Kainous sibling to Polyphemus, the Argonaut, and Iskies, the lover of Koronis. Alternatively, Kainous might have been the daughter of Atrax, which would have made her sister to Hippodamia.

I also, I will be using the pronouns that are used at that point in the story even if after after a point they they stop being appropriate right they switch after the daughter of elitus was initially known as uh kindness when she came of age kindness was widely regarded as one of the most beautiful of all lapiths suitors came from many a mile to try and woo Cainis, but she spurned all advances. One day, whilst Cainis alone by a river, Poseidon came to the land of Lapiths and was taken by her beauty. Now, there are variations on this story, and this is where the trigger warning comes in, because it is said that Poseidon had his way with the beautiful maiden.

It is commonly said that Poseidon did rape Kynas, but there is some versions of the story in which she gave herself willingly to the Greek water god. Let's go with that one. Yeah, I prefer that in general. I like that one. Poseidon offered a gift to Kynes because the experience was so good. And the Lapith chose to become a man. With some saying that she chose this gift in order that she could not be taken advantage of again. Poseidon said, you know what? All right.

And granted Kynes her wish. And Kynes became Kynus. Specifically difference being with an i versus like a eus poseidon quite liking kainous his new best bro friend was also ensured that the skin of kainous was impervious on to become a famous warrior and hero he's often named amongst the hunters of the caledonian boar that happened after the voyage of the argonauts and is also supposedly involved in the trojan war that is where my telling of kinus's story ends he ended up being killed by poison because uh that impervious skin yeah yeah if you want to

get rid of the guy impervious skin that's a great gift i do believe that means that since poseidon was involved abby you get zero points i also off the top of my head, I cannot recall what yours was. That Cainus was problematic, and so I didn't get any points for that. Yeah, Cainus was not the problematic one. It was definitely Poseidon. Poseidon is the problematic one. Poseidon always is. I should have guessed that a god was going to be problematic, but I feel like that's also a little too easy.

That's very on the nose it's like yeah if there is a god chances are they're problematic they're going to be problematic that is the whole point of them i would fix this one by one making sure that it said that like you know you remove the the rape story from it and also that you remove the bit where the gender swapping is a reaction to rape because i think that is this that is something that comes up when people are like well you're not actually x you're just you're just acting that way because you don't you've been sexually assaulted right yeah like that's an incredibly homophobic and transphobic thing to say. There are some people for whom that is true, mind you.

But I think that if that's your idea of why someone is transitioning, it's not coming from a place of like honesty or understanding. So less fun than being turned into a woman for hitting snakes. For hitting snakes. But also getting some pretty great gifts for, you know, giving a great bang. So. Yep. Like that could be fun. Yeah.

I mean. Just being excellent at sex. Good for him. Yep. Good for him. I do just appreciate that Poseidon's like, yeah, I'll make you a man. Also, I'll make sure no one can kill you. Like, I like you human

yeah i like the idea that they're still friends afterward yeah maybe i like it i like it only if the sex is yeah yeah well that's definitely part of it i love it if the sex was consensual if if you know they have such like like he rolls up to her on the beach says do you want to bang and i guess he and he says absolutely and then they have phenomenal sex poseidon says that was great i'm a god what do you want yeah no i'm down for that whereas like as opposed to like i can't handle myself like yes yes i yeah and then afterwards they they they stay buddies is they they're still bang buddies adorable to me that's how it ends in my head i'm just gonna go with that because the alternative is very sad those are really

excellent fixes i think um in addition to kind of like the reasons for him wanting to be a man, not being sort of based on misconceptions about why someone would want that. I can definitely agree with pretty much all of that. It's like those are much better and more interesting versions of the story. All right. The last one is slightly longer again. You know what? Just for you, Kelsey. And this is this is spoilers, but because much of how I have envisioned Saren's backstory is based on Greek myth.

I will go ahead and read this one as Saren. Yeah, I love it. I'm sure you've both heard this character's name before because this story is about Achilles on Skyros. OK. So one prediction each do i remember anything about achilles except how he died do i remember anything about achilles except how that's pretty much all i remember i know he was gay in a big way that is about all I remember about Achilles. I'm going to predict that the gods are not involved in this one.

I mean, speaking from previous experience of 10 minutes ago, I think that's a dangerous prediction. It is. It's very dangerous. I wish I hadn't made that prediction. I'm going to go with Achilles has a trans lover in this one. Okay. For those of you who don't know, I'm going to give some brief backstory on Achilles. Achilles was one of the heroes of the Trojan War for the Greeks.

Before his birth, many prophecies were uttered about Achilles before the Trojan War, for it is foretold that he would be greater than his father Peleus, that he was destined to either live a long and dull life or a short and glorious one, that he was destined to die at Troy, and lastly, Colchis foretold that the Achaeans could not win unless Achilles fought born in Pythia and tutored by Chiron upon Mount Pelion. And yet, by the age of nine, it was said that the son of Peleus and Thetis was found on the Aegean island of Skyros. And of course, there is a tale told of how Achilles found himself upon Skyros. This tale is not to be found in Homer's Iliad, but can be found in Stadius' Achilleid. There's an Achilleid? There apparently is. Stadius' Achilleid. There's an Achilleid?

There apparently is. Peleus and Thetis had gone their separate ways after Thetis had failed to make her son Achilles immortal, and Achilles had been left in the care of Peleus, who then gave his son to Chiron to be taught. Thetis, though, had not abandoned her son, and with the ability to see into the future, Thetis could see her son dying at a young age at Troy. Thetis could see her son dying at a young age at Troy. Thetis, though, would seek to change the future and planned so that Achilles would not go to Troy. And if Achilles did not go to Troy, he could not die there. So Thetis took Achilles from Chiron and transported him to a small island of Skyros, which at the time was ruled by King Lysomedes.

Furthermore, Thetis decided to disguise Achilles as a girl so that he might be hidden amongst the seven daughters of King Lysomedes. The youthful Achilles protested about having to disguise himself as a girl, but after a time when he observed the beautiful Didamia, Achilles was said to have changed his mind. Thetis thus presented Achilles to Lysomedes as if her son was actually her daughter, named Pyrrha, and requested that she might live amongst the king's daughters. Pyrrha meaning red-haired one. And the reason that Thetis gave to Lysomedes was the fact that Pyrrha needed to learn feminine ways. Having previously only been exposed to an Amazon-style way of living, Lysomedes willingly accepted Pyrrha into his home.

Tricky, tricky. For a time, Achilles lived alongside the daughters of Lysomedes and fell more and more in love with the beautiful Didamia. And eventually, Achilles revealed himself to Didamia and told her who he really was, that he was in fact not Pyrrha, but Achilles revealed himself to Didamia and told her who he really was that he was in fact not Pyrrha but Achilles and Didamia would subsequently fall in love with Achilles and did not reveal his identity to anyone else at this point living together they did secretly wed and eventually gave birth to a son named Neoptolemus. However, life outside of Skyros was bleak as events were occurring that made a war between Greece and Troy inevitable. And as Agamemnon gathered together forces to retrieve his sister-in-law Helen from Troy,

the Syraculchus reiterated a prophecy which said that the achaeans could not win unless achilles was with them agamemnon would dispatch other achaean leaders to seek out achilles and guided by calchas several achaean leaders would arrive at skyros odysseus among their number canny and and wise and cunning as he as he was oh yeah he was joined by Ajax, the Great, Diomedes, Nestor, or Phoenix, depending on the work that one reads. Some tell of how Achilles would have been immediately revealed himself, but was held back from doing so by Daedama. Odysseus was convinced that Achilles was hidden within the royal court, and using his renowned cunning odysseus decided to trick achilles into revealing himself the plan that odysseus conceived was this that he should reveal two baskets as gifts to the

daughters of lysomedes in one basket were jewelry and trinkets and in the other were arms and armor the real daughters of lysomedes went to the basket of trinkets whilst achilles alone went to the basket of weapons i mean i feel like you should have been smart enough to fall to not fall for that one also really none of the other girls was like swords i mean yeah and this is part of my fix for the story but i'll talk about it later because it's like. Subsequently, Odysseus had his Achaean comrades simulate an attack on Skyros, making loud sounds of screaming and fighting and clanging the weapons on armor. When the warning horn was sounded, Achilles forgot his disguise and took up weapons to defend the island. like the the picture the picture that this story is paints of achilles is very funny that he just had empty no thought had empty um handsome strong fight hit thing sex now yeah i love it so much because he's been living there for years at this point years i mean considering i don't know how old achilles was when he when he joined them um

but he started he got there when he was nine which means means that he's probably 16 by this point. Maybe 18 even. And Pyrrha's been living her life, you know, just surrounded like by pretty women and like probably very happy. Loving it. And then someone shows up with a sword and she's like, oh, damn, that's a nice sword. oh damn that's a nice sword it's just so it's such a like sexist idea that it blows my mind it was bonkers like oh boys inherently love and then he wouldn't need any practice with the sword has he been training with the sword while living there i mean he trained with chiron okay who was a centaur and like knew all about

fighting up until he was nine years old like that's true that's true that's true but don't you think those skills atrophy a little bit if you're like spending like 9 to 16 pretending to be like a princess i mean not in greek mythology not in greek mythology that's fair that's i mean i would think they would I I spent seven years not doing fencing and I forgot entirely what I was supposed to do with my fencing foil like so I think I have a good argument here but yeah I'm with you on this one it's like just the ultimate bro probably that's how I'm getting like he is quite the himbo at least as this story depicts big bisexual disaster himbo energy is our friend achilles it's so funny because like i did

remember the name pira i've heard that before i just forgot that it was attached to this story. Yeah. And I mean, Impera shows up as a, as a character, very like as a name for characters in various works of fiction. And I'm like, sure. And now, now I know that it is Achilles chosen name. Like Achilles.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. With this Achilles has revealed himself as a warrior hidden amongst the princesses. Now is honor bound to depart from Skyros, leaving Daedalus behind. Achilles, of course, promises to return, but never does. Nope.

He meets his unfortunate end. Yeah. In a much longer story that we don't have time to tell. That is a very long story. I don't believe you acquired any points i did not get a point because my i'm kicking myself because my prediction was that achilles is going to be uh the trans lover uh yes this uh story and i said the opposite thing and i was wrong but i like it better this way so i'm happy to be wrong and I'm pretty sure I got a point.

And you did get a point because for once, there were no gods involved. I was honestly not expecting it to be right. If I had the opportunity to change Greek mythology in any way, it would be that perhaps Achilles returned to the battlefield, but not like because of norms didn't have to return as achilles but perhaps achilles would have been happy as pyrrha i mean lived there for a long time without too much of a problem with it certain versions he does have problems with it but i think that achilles is the original sword lesbian 100 yes and it's just you know just having a grand old time living there amongst amongst the women with her wife and um their son and either doesn't go and die in in the trojan war or doesn't die in the trojan War and comes back to live the rest of her life

happy with Daedama. If only these old Greek stories ended in a happy way. Yeah. That is exactly what I'd want for her because I didn't know this story, the story of Achilles. I only knew that Achilles got dipped by his mother in the river Styx and became invulnerable except for his heel and then dies at Troy because he gets shot in the heel. And that's what kills him. Which sucks. Having not read the entire Achilleid, it is just interesting that came across a lot of instances of female to male transitioning. And not even just transitioning, but cross-dressing and living as a man to avoid whatever negative thing might happen.

And this is one of the only instances I found that someone, you know, and he didn't choose for himself. instances i found that someone you know and he didn't choose for himself but and that's another thing i would choose i would have him choose to live as a woman rather than have his mom force him to right it's so interesting that so much of his life was this was living was living as pyrrha yeah that his life was pyrrha and then troy yes so much of it yeah where he found love again but where he found love again which is why he's a bisexual king i love pira the the original sword lesbian just delights me and i i do wish that maybe that like he had been able to go on as pira i think that's a really good really good fix for it yeah since he'd lived that way so long so those are the stories i have to tell you today those were great i am glad you all enjoyed

them yeah it's always fun to like very much switch it up so far both of our guests have really switched it up told something totally unexpected and also used their amazing far beyond the stars voice that's true i fucking love i think we should take the opportunity to put heidi in the hot seat and make her make predictions oh okay i've got a really good one i'm super stoked on it it's pretty short it's only like three pages. And I found it from one of my newest books that we got from Chris Otto, one of our patrons, a book of cats and creatures. Ooh.

I know. It's so adorable. I'm so stoked that Ruth Manning Sanders has a book of cats and creatures. I love it. And this story is called the imp cat heidi and abby give me three predictions well it's you know it's only three pages maybe like two predictions and um an imp is like a little double or sprite creature just in case the imp cat it's funny i actually didn't know that i thought imp was like a slur for like a short person so i was just like oh fuck maybe i shouldn't read this

i mean if you're going if you're going strictly with the game yeah that's totally where i got it from that makes sense for why for why you think that um i forgot i mean that's absolutely the way so that's what i assumed so i just wanted to throw that out there just but but but they used it that way because imp means little demon um okay so it's the imp cat and I'm going to stick with our themes of, you know, metamorphosis and transformation in this episode, that it is a tiny demon that has transmogrified itself into a cat. In this story, the demon cat tries to trick some kids into making a deal with the devil i

don't know that's my those are my those are great predictions i am going to predict that throughout the story or at the by the end of the story where the imp cat may have started as a cat or an imp ends as neither of those things oh that's a really cool prediction my second prediction is throughout the course of the story the imp cat will break something that will cause it problems okay i'll take it okay i like that one heidi that's a good one yeah those are really interesting predictions. Actually, I think they were like pretty detailed. The imp cat.

Once upon a time, a mischievous imp changed himself into a cat. Went meowing outside the house of a peasant called Carl, which I think is really cute. Carl. Carl. Carl. Carl. Carl. Carl's my favorite character in this. I just love the name Carl.

It's so bad. It's a terrible name. Sorry to anyone named Carl. I love Carl. Carl's my favorite character in this story. The peasant's wife, whose name was Marianne, opened the door. Oh, poor pussy, said Marianne. How unhappy you look.

You must be hungry. And she picked up the cat and carried it into her kitchen and gave it a saucer of milk and some rinds of cheese, which is really sweet for a peasant. That is really sweet. Absolutely. And I was about to scream like, no, Marianne, it's a demon. But also like it's a cat. Cats are demons. are demons pretty much cat imp what really functionally what is the difference the cat lapped up the milk gobbled

up the cheese rinds and strolled over to the kitchen fire and there sat on the hearth rug licking its paws and washing its face by and by in comes comes Marianne's husband, the peasant, Carl. Hello, what have we here? says he. Hello, what have we here? says the cat, mimicking Carl's voice. Freaking terrifying. And Marianne gave a little scream.

But peasant Carl laughed. Seems you've got a hold of something out of the ordinary, wife, says he. I don't think I like it, says Marianne. Rubbish, says Carl. Good fun. Now, what about my dinner? Carl sat down at the table and Marianne set a plate full of meat and vegetables before him. Then what did the cat do? It jumped up onto another chair, sniff, sniff, and sniffed at peasant Carl's plate and said, now what about my dinner? Uh-oh. Okay. Well, I'm starting to feel bad for Marianne in this situation if she has to get the cat dinner too. Marianne gave another little scream and peasant Carl just laughed.

He put some of his own dinner onto another plate and gave it to the cat. The cat gobbled it up, purred and jumped down from the table. I didn't hear a thank you, said peasant Carl. Thank you, said the cat. Marianne gave out another little scream and peasant Carl laughed. We've got a curiosity here and no mistake said he the cat has talked like twice now you can stop screaming the cat talks well why aren't they talking about it too like yeah like carl's just fine with it that's why i love carl yeah carl's just like

that's weird oh this is my life i guess he's got a new little buddy talking cat tuesday i am no curiosity it happens i'm a very handsome animal said the cat that you are pussy that you are said carl and he laughed again the cat went to lie down in front of the fire and when the stomach is full a little snooze is indicated it it said, and immediately fell asleep. Do you think it's a devil? Whispered Marianne. No, said Carl. It's a talking cat.

But cats don't talk, said Marianne. This one does, said Carl. I don't like it, said Marianne. And Carl laughs again. He says, don't be silly said marianne and carl laughs again he says don't be silly it's just a curiosity i like curious and marianne asked to drive it away but carl says not on your life we're going to keep it carl fucking loves this cat and i honestly understand that So off to work with Carl and the cat slept by the fire all the rest of the day. But when Carl came in for a supper,

there was the cat sitting at the table again, demanding its supper, calling out more food, more food and meowing and slapping its paws on the table. Wow. Rude. Which I mean, that's every cat when they're hungry.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. yeah like so far this imp is a pretty normal cat uh i think this story is just an elaborate cover-up for people trying to explain why their cats are actually little demons it's true well said carl so as long as you don't bring us to wreck and ruin by your appetite i'm sure you're welcome carl felt pretty fond of his talking cat he petted and spoiled it but when the cat took to walking into the neighbor's kitchens and helping himself to food from their tables the neighbors began to grumble the thing wasn't a cat at all, they said. It was a demon in disguise. And they complained, Burgermaster. It's the mayor in like a Dutch. That's a mayor? Burgermaster.

Have you never seen the 1980s animated Christmas movie with the Burgermeister Meisterburger? No. Okay. No. no okay no okay we need to have like a uh like when christmas rolls around have like a a stream where we watch the like those it's uh santa claus is coming to town like the stop motion animation oh yeah yeah i do remember that i remember that that's coming it's coming back. The Burgermeister's... Meisterburger? Yeah, in that he's called Burgermeister Meisterburger. Amazing.

Nope. I did not... Okay, so that's a word for the mayor. The mayor, basically. People are complaining about the cat to the mayor, which seems a little ridiculous to me, but it seems a little ridiculous. When there's nothing else going on in a small town, you find your entertainment where you can. Well, the Burgermaster says, stuff and nonsense. What you're telling me is pure imagination. But people kept on complaining. So one early evening burger master went on to carl and marianne

carl and marianne had just finished their supper and marianne was washing up the dishes carl was smoking his pipe in front of the fire and the cat was lying at his feet the burger master looked down at the cat and the cat looked at the burger master i can't stop thinking of this as like as like the burger master is like some kind of local grilling expert and that's what makes him the mayor you know yeah he's just like he's got a lot of interest he's the guy you go to on on on the holiday like yeah yeah I almost want to just say mayor but no keep saying Burgermaster because it's it's it's fun I'm getting better at

saying it so this is the animal I've been hearing such foolish tales about said the Burgermaster all nonsense of course but in order to put up a stop to these tales Carl you'd better get rid of the creature a merciful death you know the shot of a gun or but the cat had risen to its feet yeah what the fuck like that's a little much you have to get rid of the cat so shoot it a merciful shooting death

yeah that's that's a little much The cat had risen to its feet. And while the burger master stared in horrified unbelief that the cat grew larger and larger until it was as big as a tiger. And the roar that came from its wide open jaws shook the kitchen and set the pots and pans rattling on the shelves. I'll give you stuff and nonsense, bellowed the cat. hands rattling on the shelves. I'll give you stuff and nonsense, bellowed the cat. And it seized the Burgermaster by the coattails, swung him once, twice, thrice, and tossed him out through the open window.

Marianne and Carl were standing back against the wall, too horrified to move. Carl and Marianne, said the giant cat, much as I have enjoyed your company and grateful as I am for your hospitality, the time has obviously come when I must bid you goodbye. And so having said that, giant cat leapt through the open window, changed itself back into an imp and sauntered away into his home underground where he told an interesting company of his fellow imps that all the created beings of men and women were the stupidest the most ungrateful and the dullest creatures that cumbered the earth the end the end wow wow oh wow i that was very fun i love it man humans are dumb i i mean i love that ending though the story is like it's exactly is exactly that yeah i do too no fixes for that let me tell you funny humans are dumb it's just like dumbest dullest most ungrateful even though he's like wreaking havoc everywhere yeah and i feel like carl and marianne took pretty good care of him he thanked them

so that's true i i'm assuming he's not talking about carl and marianne i'm sure he's very fond of carl they had a special bond which is so cute yeah he might be talking about marianne maybe like maybe she did scream three times when he started talking like calm down marianne once i get because that is surprising but a second time it's already been established that the cat can talk marianne calm down girl you need to calm down i can even excuse the second time because like the first time you might have be like okay well i just made that up that it's not a real thing that happened the third time though it's like now there's no reason that you should be screaming anymore maybe you should be talking to the cat and asking some questions

asking some questions. Yeah. That's what I would probably be doing. Yeah. In typical fairy tale fashion, no one asks any questions. Why does the burglary master want to, like, kill the cats? I was going to say that it had,

like, Irish folktale vibes. Yeah, it kind of did. With the sudden involvement of, like, a mayor and he wants something and then like he's harassing the peasants and then the magical thing that they've invited into their home but that they've been nice to kicks the the overly officious mayor slash landlord out i would really like but 40 minutes short of that like as a live. I think that'd be really fun. I would love a movie of every story that we've told today.

I would especially love a movie of sword lesbian Pyrrha. I mean, me too. Just all of Greek mythology needs a series. And I don't know why this hasn't happened yet. Because there's so much potential. Like you think that they would manage to do a really good cinematic universe for Greek mythology. This was fun. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on. And how can people find you?

Well, if people are really interested in finding me, they can go out into the woods and howl at the moon. Excellent. Is that how you're summoned? Yeah, failing that uh anyone who wishes to seek me out on social media can do so by finding me on twitter at vamahillian that's v-a-m-i-h-i-l-i-o-n or preferably i am actually on discord you can track us down through the Fantastic Worlds Podcast Discord, where I occasionally pop up and say things that are related to Pathfinder or anything to do with queerness. You can find me on there at Heidelon, hashtag 5836.

That's H-E-I-D-O-L-O-N. Yeah, and definitely make sure to listen to Far Beyond the Stars. It's awesome. Thank you so much for listening to Fairytale Fix. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave us a review on Apple or Stitcher. If you love the show and want to support us, you can get extra episodes, merch, books, and other bonus content at our Patreon by signing up at fairytalefix.cash for about what you'd pay for a latte a month. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at fairytalefixpod. And please email us your favorite fairy tales,

folklore, nursery rhymes, and other such things at info at fairytale fix pod.com. And Pira stayed on, on the Island of Skyros living her best sword lesbian life with her wife and son. And I don't have a fix for mine. And they all lived happily ever after.

The end.