Fantasy Football Daily - 2022 Take Talk Ep. 5 with John Kosko

Episode Date: September 16, 2022

Brett Whitefield (@BGWhitefield) and Steven ORourke (@callmesteveo7) invite John Kosko (@JohnKosko3) of ProFootballFocus on to preview Week 3 games. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/fantasy-points-podcast/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's time for the Fantasy Points podcast brought to you by FantasyPoint.com. Top level fantasy football and NFL betting analysis from every perspective and angle, from numbers to the film room with a single goal to help you score more fantasy points. Welcome in to Take Talk podcast presented by Fantasy Points. I am your host, Brett Whitefield, with my co-host, Stephen Orrork as usual. and today we have a very, very special guest, one of my best friends in real life, but also a tremendous asset in the football analytic space,

PFF's own John Costco. What's up, John? What's up, fellas? Happy to be on a show and do a podcast. This is our first time ever doing a podcast together. We've done, so we've done a couple Fantasy Points live streams. We did, I think. Yeah, we did do that one on like the, on draft day.

I just kind of hopped on randomly. whatever, but. That's true. Yeah, you were actually at my house. That's right. You actually stole my microphone and then just hopped in. Yeah, that's right. I remember that now.

Yeah, but a non-live stream, this is the first time, so it would be fun. Yeah, so a little bit about John. He's been at PFF pretty much his entire post-playing career, right? Is your first, like, football job? Yeah, basically, since 2014 with PFF. Yeah, we got hired roughly around the same time. And something I found out about John today that I think is, as crazy as he's worked in this space for so long.

He watches as much football as Steve and I, which we take a lot of pride in the fact that it's a lot. But John doesn't wear any type of eye protection. And we just found this out when we were kind of prepping for the show. Yeah. You've mentioned to me in a past that you wear like blue light sunglasses or glasses or whatever. I've never done that. You don't deal with migraines or anything?

None. I have no migraines. Have no problems with looking at the computers. I mean, it might help me if I were to do it, like when we are having a Saturday night or Sunday night, like, I'm going until three in the morning. It might help me to fall asleep much faster when I get done. Yeah. So I might try that out.

I don't know if that's like a thing that you guys had noticed for that. Yeah, strong recommend when I was like my second year at PFF actually, you know, those Saturdays get crazy long. You're working basically from noon, sometimes in the morning because we used to do high school in the morning. I don't know if you remember those days. Of course I do. And you would roll until sometimes two, three in the morning on Saturday.

And I would have just massive migraines. And I talked to an eye doctor. He's like, oh, dude, you just need something to protect your eyes from your computer screens. Blue light. So it's literally changed my life. I don't deal with migraines anymore. I strongly recommend it. Too bad, we don't have like a sponsor of the show.

So I could be like, hey, go buy this product. Product. Use promo code. Take talk. But we don't. It's all right. One day. One day.

Steve, how are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm excited about, I'm excited to talk about last night's game. I want to clarify, I don't have blue light protection on my glasses. I just need them to see. That's just my deficiency as a human is eyesight. You're still pretty young to the drift, though. Like you, you know what I mean?

A couple years from now, you'll be wanting some blue light glasses, I think. I worked in sales. And so I mean, I've been staring at computers. That's been most of them. my professional career is just staring at computers. I definitely notice it, like John said, the falling asleep at night, though, that is like, I'll lay down and I'll close my eyes and it feels like I'm still like staring at a computer screen. I remember that feeling. The worst is when you actually feel like you need more blue light to fall asleep. Like a lot of people need

TV or something. Oh, I have. They watch something on their phone, you know? It's like I just stared at a screen all day long. The last thing I need right now is more TV or more screenage. Yeah, that's Something I've had to adjust is that now when I go to bed after like games, I go to bed much later than my wife. And so I can't turn on the TV because I'm not going to wake her up because she kicked my ass if I woke her up at 3 a.m. So I've had to adjust to not falling asleep with the TV and that's been that's been difficult. Well, I think, I think like that's like a you shouldn't have to fall asleep with a TV on like you should fall asleep like away from. that for like like the recommended thing is like turn all that stuff off the last hour of the day like no screen time nothing or whatever like read a book oh and that you should be able to fall asleep right like

yeah yeah most people that have trouble falling asleep at night it's because they just didn't do enough during the day i'm not going to say everybody because that would be a misclassification but a lot of people that struggle with falling asleep i know when i do it's usually because i didn't do anything other than sit at a computer all day. But days I'm super productive. I mowed my lawn. I got a workout in, you know,

went and trained. It's like automatic. As soon as my head touches the pillow, I'm out, you know? Yeah, one thing too is I got a standing desk now. So it's a sit stand.

I can sit if I need to, but this off season, I really focused on making sure that I actually utilize a stand desk because last year during a football season, I rarely used it. I tried to use it some, but like it was just,

I was just so, you know, it was just too hard. So this offseason, I got my, worked up my stamina of standing. And that helps, too, that, like, obviously, if you're standing versus sitting all day, it's, it's a significant difference in, you know, just, like, energy at the end of the day. Yeah, that's smart. It's probably way better on your back, too. Yeah. Yeah.

And I got a tight board to help with, like, different positions, too. So. Oh, for when you are sitting? Or is that when you're standing? Like, I have, like, a legitimate. Yeah. I got a slant board so I can stand on it and like stretch my calves if I need to. That's really awesome.

That's definitely next to my list. My setup's pretty nice, but I want to get a, you know, stand sit desk. And that was our sleep talk segment on the Taked Talk podcast. Yes. So, yeah, let's get into last night. And one of the reasons I wanted to bring John on the pod, even before I watched last night's game, is just because John is one of the smartest football guys. I know, especially when it comes to breaking down quarterback play.

secondary play, all things past game. That's kind of his specialty. And we had two juggernaut quarterbacks going at it last night. And I think the result left me very less than satisfied to say the least. So I don't know. John, what was your gut reaction to watch him last night? It was exciting, but a lot of sloppy play. So you had some phenomenal throws and plays in that game,

what you'd expect from the two quarterbacks. And so, you know, one thing at PFF that we get a lot of flack about while this past week is like when the grade doesn't match up to the stats and patch pro homes had a classic game of that that happened this week one where you know he threw for 300 plus yards had the five touchdowns three of those were walking touchdowns he had a dropped interception in the end zone that kelsey had to break up wasn't a dropped interception but he had a break up basically an interception and he missed on just a handful of throws that he should have made and um he didn't have any, you know, he had a, he had a big time throw in that game, but he didn't,

you know, didn't wow anything. It was just really efficient performance by his team, and he happened to be on the throwing end of the football in those situations. This game, he was, he, and it kind of bore out where he had, like, three turnover he throws. He also had three big time throws. So he kind of, like, balanced it out. But, like, every big time throw he had, which, you know, they had a touchdown to,

uh, was it just, Justin Watson over J.C. Jackson. and that was a big time throw. He had another one to, I think it was, who's the, who's the, number one running back? Is it McKinnon? Yeah, McKinnon. So he had, I mean, had a wild play there. That was kind of one of those wild ones. But then he, like, every bad throw he made was dropped for an interception.

Like, legitimately, like, could have had three or four interceptions in the game. And it was just, you know, he had one that was Calci. It was really bad. So, like, that's the thing with, like, with Mahomes is that there was, it was just so wild and all over the place. And then with Herbert, he was pretty good. But when he got hurt, you know, he had made a really bad decision on a, on a throw where he tried to throw into, like, quadruple coverage,

and it was a dropped interception. He had probably the most insane throw of the night down, you know, after he scrambled and, like, threw the ball away. Wait, all he had to do was walk, like, two more yards he has a first down, had a big time throw on fourth down, you know, down the middle of the field, which was kind of insane considering the situation of how much pain he was in. But otherwise, like, he wasn't, he still, like, was missing throws. Like, you know, it wasn't, like, turnover really throws left and right from him.

It was just inaccuracy from him. So, I don't know, there are some wild plays and then sloppy play as well. Yeah, so Mahomes, we kind of broke down his grade on Wednesday because a couple people had asked. But my takeaway was the same as yours. as far as this game goes, I think I had him down for like five or six, just what I would call just egregious throws. Like even the one that got picked off by Nassir Adelaidey

that got reversed because of the pass interference, that ball was severely overthrown. Now, obviously, I'm sure you guys didn't chart it as a turnover where they play. We didn't necessarily either, but it's one of those ones where it's like, man, I think he really got bailed out there. And in fact, he got double bailed out

because it was probably offensive pass. interference that should have been called. Right. Yeah, you know, you look at it again. That one is an interesting one from, you know, grading perspective because there's too much unknown to say, to kind of definitively say one way or the other. It probably looked bad. It probably was bad. But, you know, when you're talking about like, you know, 60, 40 and like, you know, on

that type of, you know, fence, we don't, we don't grade it like as a either or because there's, you know, it makes it a little bit easier for us. There's massive contact in the middle of the field. And so, you know, I think there's, there's ad aspect to it. There's, you know, I don't know if you guys get the all 22, you know, we at PFF do. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, but I did. But I don't know if it's been released to the public or anything like that in like a game pass. Yeah, we have, we have it.

Yeah. So on that, I, you know, live, I thought it was, I thought it was offensive pass interference. re-watching it, you know, I think he made, you know, if, I can't remember who the defender was, if the defender at least, like, Bryce Canlan, if he at least, like, carries his hip and turns with them, I don't think there's, I don't think there's a question that it's offensive pass interference, but the initial contact came from Callahan and he drove him from one side of the hash to the other and never tried to turn and run with him. He just was in the way. So, you know, I, I see, I can see it from both cases.

I see exactly why they called it with illegal contact or whatever, though. For sure. And that definitely was a big distinction there, as they went with illegal contact versus pass interference. So that was the giveaway that it was the initial contact that they were worried about. And then Herbert, you know, like you said, he made a couple of ridiculous throws. I think the one, the crazy part is he made some really bad throws too. And the one he took the most heat for on Twitter was the one to Gerald Everett down in the red zone.

And that was, I mean, I had some choice words for Everett in our group chat. And I think Everett really screwed him on that play. And, you know, Herbert thought he had inside leverage. And Everett clearly was having some type of breathing slash cardiac episode from the previous two plays. Needed to come off the field, didn't get off the field, and then just ran a really sloppy route, kind of getting his quarterback in trouble there. Yeah, that's, I mean, that was the difference of the game, that play right there. Obviously, you're talking about the charge is about to score.

And then the chief score instead. So that's a 14-point swing in a three-point game and ended up being a three-point game. Who knows, you know, the dynamic of game obviously changes if they score and the chiefs attack it differently and the charges, you know, probably also as well. But, yeah, Everett was wrong on that play. When you show yourself like that and then bounce to the outside, you know, in that look, you know, you're asking for trouble and that's exactly what they got. So, yeah, they decided.

to go hurry up in that situation when you saw Everett on like looking to the sideline asking for a breather and they're like, no, you stay out there. And then Herbert decided to throw it to him. Like I don't know if Herbert knew that he was so gassed. He was just, hey, I'm going to read this out and I'm going to throw it to my, you know, where the defense takes it to me. So, you know, maybe the decision to throw it to a gassed guy like that is not, not right. Right. You expect your, you still expect your guy to be in the right spot. Or at least give an effort on route. I mean, he literally, he just like turns outside and then just like flips his hits and almost just backs up. Yeah, he was drifting. It's not even like he planted and stuck it. He just like kind of rotated, kind of threw it, just kind of threw it in reverse slowly and just made,

like there was no effort there. I'd be willing to bet that if Herbert hit him hit him in the face mask with that ball, he wasn't catching it. Like he was just, he was that gas. The body language on the sideline afterward. It was hilarious, too. Yeah. Everett was over there talking to Herbert, and like it looked like he was pleading his case, begging for forgiveness. And Herbert looking on his face, just like, well, okay, if that's what you say, man.

You know, like, it just didn't look like he cared. He was just really upset about it, obviously. Basically, like, you're dead to me. Yeah, right. And Everett was a pretty heavy target leading up to that point, too, for them. Yeah, he was actually looking good.

Yeah. When he got the ball and He was making plays and obviously got a lot of targets and good production at game. But the thing is that his mistake cost them the game, essentially. Legitimately. And I know, Steve, you were excited about Everett in this offense. Probably more than I'd heard anyone talk about it because, honestly, Herbert hasn't really had a good tight end. I just feel like I had always felt like from what I had seen that Gerald Everett, wherever he went was always kind of underutilized. He was either the second man or the first man in an offense that doesn't really.

really throw to tight ends, Seattle. And so I just felt like with his, you know, he's an athlete, he's athletic for a tight end. And he runs solid routes. And I just felt like he could do something with Herbert. And Herbert's one of the better. Like Herbert and Holmes are both one of the better ones that it doesn't matter where you line up. If you're a weapon and you can get open, I'm going to find you. Yep.

I agree with that. I like, I like Everett's talent coming out. I never thought it was utilized properly in L.A. and also Seattle and so far through two games, he's been looking good other than the fact that he just screwed his team out to win. I really like ever on the underneath stuff, getting him in space, able to get yards after the catch. That's what he was, South Alabama, he was basically a screen machine, if you remember, John. Yeah, he also was like a broken tackle machine. Yeah, that's what I mean.

Yeah, like short throws, then he would just go nuts after the catch. And that's what they were doing with them yesterday is they were just kind of leaking him out on little arrow routes like all night. And just when, you know, if Willie Gay was late getting out there, Herbert would just dump it down and let him go to work. And that's where, you know, like we said, that's where he is. That's where he's at his best. Yep. So looking forward for both these teams, like I came away from yesterday's game, even though the Chargers lost feeling way worse about the Chiefs than I did the Chargers. And I'm not entirely sure why.

maybe it's because Mahomes's play. We saw stretches last year where Mahomes just looked off. In the kind of the early to middle parts of the season where he was constantly bailing from clean pockets. It just wasn't really in rhythm. And now you have this kind of renewed offense where they're going back to a lot of 12 personnel, a lot of 21 personnel. They've talked all offseason about getting back to the basics. And Mahomes goes through stretches where, yeah, he looks perfectly fine running the offense the way he should. Like all last week, that's what it was, right?

He was just running the offense, taking what was given to him. And then he has these moments where it's like he just refuses to do that and has breakdowns. And I'm not really concerned about Mahomes, but I'm just concerned that this experiment at wide receiver is going to prevent him from making, consistently making those Herculean effort plays that we see from him constantly. And is he going to have enough of those plays to overcome these flash moments where he decides to do bad things? Yeah, it's interesting because I think one of the things that made him so deadly in his first three years as a starter, where he was grading at like 90 plus consistently, is he played within the offense that was asked of him. And then when it was needed, he made these ridiculous throws out of structure.

And he's instead of relying on making the plays within the structure of the offense, he's now resorted. more to the, hey, because I'm so good at out of structure stuff, let me, let me try to make it happen. But the problem is without a structure stuff is it's not stable. It's you can't, it's not repeatable. What is repeatable is being able to work within the offense and finding the open guy and hitting him. You don't see, you know, obviously, you know, Tom Brady is this, you know, the second best

quarterback of all time. Oh God. After autograph. Stop. But like he's, you know, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, those guys always were, they always worked within the offense, all their, like, ridiculous plays are within the flow of the offense. And they didn't, they didn't push the, like, trying to make things happen, like, all the, you know, on a heavy, consistent basis.

Like, they find the open receiver hit them, just matriculate down the field, big time throws come to them rather than trying to always find them. And that, you know, that is what, you know, Mahomes still obviously runs in a very inefficient offense. And it's, it's always good. but like there's always like the past two years it just seems like there's been something missing and it's because he's he's not taking what's there for him on a consistent basis he does it but just there's those plays where he doesn't and it's what's hurting his efficiency may be great as well

and you can you can kind of see it at times where the switch will flip in his head you know where he'll bail early from a pocket and it's like he flips a switch and is like I need to make a big play right now. Regardless of, regardless of what the play design is, it's I, I feel like I need to go get something right now. And that's where he gets himself into trouble. And even though, even though he can do that. And then again, it's like pulls off while plays like he had two of his touchdown yesterday. So it's like there's that, you know, it's the give and take, right? It's that it is what it is. It's that weird like Jekyll and Hyde almost where like you said, he had three turnover where he throws and three big time throws. I mean.

something like that's like that's it it's like he he'll get them but then he also forces them and sometimes it's sometimes it's almost like the receivers aren't even ready for him to make the play that he's making especially without especially without Tyree kill now because I feel like Tyree Kill was one of the better ones at you know just like because of his speed just turning and running into open space and being able to burn a defender deep and he doesn't really have that now So my take on this, and I know your show is called Take Talk, so this is my take on that. Let's go. They obviously, I mean, Tyree Kill is like a top three wide deceiving the NFL.

And trading him is, you know, in a short term probably hurts the Chiefs a bit. But I think the reason why they went ahead and traded him instead of trying to get him signed, obviously from a money standpoint. But it felt like Mahomes relied on that too much because he knew he had a guy that could always do. that. Yes. So that, to me, I think from a development standpoint of Patrick Mahomes of like, hey, you've got to work within the offense. That's the reason why I thought like, hey, they have a bunch of like decent receivers out there, but they have Kelsey and it's like a bunch of guys that's like, they're not really, they're a bunch of maybe twos and, you know, threes at best. I would argue more closer to the threes. So I think, I think that's probably the reason why they trade in him. And

And from a developmental standpoint, he's got to, hey, work within the offense. These guys can get open, which is kind of, you know, I argue that. I charted that game of coverages and not many people get open for that team right now. So I think that's what the reason why, though, Mahomes is being forced more to play within the structure of offense because of that. For sure. And we've seen other QBs go through this, right? I mean, Stafford, when he lost Calvin, there was a good swathing. of people that thought, hey, man, maybe this is actually good for Stafford because he's going to have

to develop his game a little bit more. And he had one of his best years shortly after, you know, when he had a receiving core of Kenny Galladay, Marvin Jones, and Golden Tate. Like that trio was better than paying one guy, $30 million a year, basically. And, you know, Stafford developed his game a little bit. He ends up moving on from Detroit and winning a Super Bowl in L.A. And while he did have Cooper Cup, he also had a good swath of other weapons as well with OBJ. Jay and Van Jefferson and Tyler Higby and he was able to utilize those guys. So I definitely think the best is yet to come from Mahomes, but he's got to find that next part of his game. He's got to develop.

He's got to continue pushing the ball forward. And what's wild is that he's still an elite level quarterback, though. Oh, yeah. It's wild. For sure. But there's room for improvement. Exactly. That's the thing.

We're being very nitpicky. But this happens a lot where, you know, guys get figured out a little bit and then they have to kind of evolve. I mean, shoot, Brady's had years that haven't been his best, and then he's bounced back tremendously. I mean, shoot, like we've, someone at your company, John, buried Tom Brady, and then shortly after he won three more Super Bowls. It's, yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting game. Progress is not linear. That's, that's all. For sure. And progress is not, cannot be linear. It's always, there's more of an up and down, hopefully, you know, in the up trajectory. For sure. So one last point on the Mahomes thing. There's a quote by the Athletic

this morning that reads everything about this offense feel safe while they have the effing Terminator at quarterback. And I think it's a solid quote, but I think the point I wanted to make is like we've kind of already hammered it too. Things do feel safe. Getting back to the basics feel safe, but you need the Terminator to be the Terminator to get out of safe. And that way when he gets out of the safe zone, he's not making those mistakes.

And I think that's ultimately what it comes down to. Yep, 100%. So let's talk. And Steve, I know we did a good amount of preview this week already. We didn't anticipate doing. two episodes this week. But good news for you guys and our thousands of listeners that... Soon to be millions now that I'm here, right? Soon to be millions, of course.

Is that we're going to be doing two episodes a week. It's official. So you'll get a Wednesday episode from us and a Friday episode from us. Fridays will be generally spent recapping Thursday night football and previewing week two. This week we're not sure what the schedule looked like. So we kind of did both on Wednesday, but we can preview some more stuff, especially while we have John here. I know all of us are excited for the Philadelphia, Minnesota game this week, the Monday night game. Yes.

I want to see this, yeah, I want to see this, the new, new look Vikings and kind of how they're playing against a much better Philadelphia Eagles team. And also, I really want John and your take too, Steve, on Jalen Hertz and what you guys think his ceiling is because I've been a huge fan. I've believed in him since day. one. I think he's got the raw talent and the work ethic to get better. And I think we saw a lot of really promising things on Sunday from him.

So I'd love to hear you guys's take on that, especially you, John, being that you're the guest. Yeah, absolutely. I've, you know, coming out, I liked Jalen Hertz. And who was in that class? We had, uh, that was a class with Burrow, Herbert, Tua, right? I believe so, yes. Yeah.

Um, I wasn't a fan. I was, I was not a fan of. Tuah coming out in that. I was obviously super high in Burrow. I liked Herbert. I did not think he'd be this good, this fast. Because I think there was a lot of uses issues with him at Oregon.

But with Jalen Hertz, I thought he was just a playmaker. Like, that was, that's what I came back to. I thought he obviously needed to work on his passing game from a progression read standpoint. He didn't get helped out in that regard from, you know, obviously playing in a Lincoln Riley offense where everything is schemed open, like, extremely well, especially in the Big 12. But the guy just would make plays.

And then, like, I loved his mentality, his work ethic, his personality, his personality, because, you know, you'd see him even after wins where he'd come out there and be like, yeah, it's, it's good to get a win, but, you know, we still have a lot to work on. I got a lot to work on, you know, XYZ. And his attitude of that was what I loved. And we've seen that in the NFL where he's just, he is consistently getting better because he's, he's a hard worker and he wants to get better at his craft. Continually, he needs to continue to get better at his reads and his progression reads. But he showed, let's say, in week one, to be pretty solid with that. Obviously, just kind of shredded Detroit apart with his RPO game where he could keep it or throw it. You know, and I think with the weapons now, like one of the things that he didn't do a lot last year was throw to the middle

the field and now he has like the absolute number one best receiver in the middle of the field in a j brown so you know and that's a part of the field that like tom brady picks apart a lot and even ryan tannahill who picked a part of that part of the field obviously with a j brown and and he's he's a guy that's greatly extremely well over the past couple years in tennessee so i like hurts i think he's i think he's a guy that can you know from our great you know pff grading standpoint can be in a top 10 quarterbacks he was a top three quarterback this past week. So I think I think the sky's the limit for him. I think, you know, especially if he develops that arm,

I like him better as a pastor than Lamar. I think he's got more natural talent when it comes to that. Especially accuracy, throw for throw. Yeah, exactly. And with Lamar, things need to be skeined open. And he hasn't developed that past game yet, like in terms of a consistent past game. Lamar is obviously legs. There's nobody's going to touch them in the league.

but like you can't rely on just legs in the NFL and and and I think Hertz has a good blend of of athleticism being able to utilize his legs and in passing ability yeah there's a weird part of Hertz's game that it reminds me of like a little bit of younger Russ back when Russ was making all these ridiculous plays escaping the pocket and stuff now Russ has never been the quite the actual runner that Hertz has but like I think Hertz has that capability to let stuff break down in the pocket in and kind of use his legs to escape and become a passer first with his legs because I do think that throw-for-throw accuracy is there and better than a Lamar Jackson. And when that RPO game is working and he's able to put that defense in such conflict,

he's going to have throwing windows all day. We saw it against Detroit. And A.J. Brown, as you mentioned, is the perfect guy to do that, especially because what he offers after the catch, too. I mean, Brown's a beast to tackle. You're getting that guy the ball over the middle, usually with a step of separation. and all of the good tacklers, like the linebackers are sucked up into the line of scrimmage because of the RPO. So it's, I think it's brilliant.

And I think really the sky is the limit there. Yeah. Yeah. And what I like is that he's a very cerebral player. He does not put the ball into harm's way a lot. He's smart with his decision making. And I think that that helps a lot. And, you know, last year having quite a few guys that, you know, we're not worried.

old beaters in any way. Introducing A.J. Brown opens up that offense to a level that he hasn't had yet. And so like you said, that RPO work where it's a triple threat of you've got, you know, you're putting the defense into a tough spot where, okay, does the running back have the ball just hurts keep it? Or does he throw, does he throw it to A.J. Brown on the backside slam? It's things like that that I think that he's so smart with his decision making that, It allows him to excel so well.

Just that, you know, you're not, I'm not, like with Lamar, sometimes you'll see him force throws and some of those, some of those quarterbacks that do have legs. When they start to get outside the pocket, they'll start to force throws. I don't see that as much from Jalen Hertz, which just raises his ceiling even more. Agreed. So what do we look at for this game? Who are you guys taking? Yeah, we didn't even talk about Curtin and Minnesota, like from that aspect with, you know,

Kevin O'Connell is the new head coach in that scheme. Man, this is a tough game to, where is it being played as? Is it in Philly? It's in Philly. That's going to be a tough one for Minnesota on the road in that, in that environment. I'm probably going to take Philly. I don't even know what the spread is on this game, but I'm going to go with, I'm going to go with Philly just because they're at home.

And that's just a tough, that's a tough place to play at. especially in prime time. I think, yeah, the spread is like one and a half, two points to Philly. So I know they're actually pha. Yeah. Yeah, I'm probably taking Philly too, but I do want to see what does Vikings offense is able to do the Philly defense. I think we all anticipated Green Bay's defense being a lot better than it was on Sunday.

We thought that Jari Alexander might man up on. Right, right. So they didn't do that at all. They didn't do it at all. Like they didn't commit him to Jefferson at all. I want to see it. Do the Eagles put Slay on Jefferson, at least for most of the game? I have to imagine they will. That's like one of Slay's calling cards over the years, over the years is that he shadows number one guys. And I feel like after the whole Jair thing, I have a feeling that that would be something that Slay would probably go to the coaching staff and say something of we're like, we're not going to, I'm not going to let that happen. I'm sticking with him.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny about Justin Jefferson, right? Like, he's a top three receiver in this league. And you can say that about like 10 guys or something like maybe six guys. But like he's legitimately like, I mean, he's what? Had two of the most yards in the start NFL career or whatever. Like it's ridiculous what he's done. And then they went out and allowed him to just run freely in their secondary.

I don't know how you allow a guy like that to just run freely like that. that is against, you know, you can't like just do like generic zones against him. Right. And that's what the Packers kind of did. You have to, if you're in zone against him, you've got to like get some type of triangle bracket on him where, you know, you're running like cover six and you've got, you've got an underneath cornerback that's kind of trailing him and allowing you to get some help over the top.

And then maybe even a robber that's in the middle of the field that can help capture that if he, you know, run something like his overrouts because, I mean, he's too good to this. he's too good to get obviously get man to man like you you've got to do some some things in your secondary to help and if you think that you know you're like slay is a good cornerback but he's not good enough to this track jefferson all day like that's it's not going to happen and i don't you know even even jyri alexander is not good enough just to track jester jesus and jefferson all day long so they've got to do some things exotic in their back in to like slow that down he's going to get yards but you have to slow it down in some form of fashion and that's the

thing is like Minnesota has decent weapons around Jefferson, but nobody that is absolutely terrifying. So why, why would you just drop a generic zone? Why not focus over to Jefferson and make the other guys beat you, especially with the secondary like Green Bay? Like they're deep in the secondary. They have a great starting five. Like let your other guys handle the, handle the non-Jefferson receivers and don't let Jefferson beat you. Yep. If you look what the Eagles did against the lines, too, they did play a lot of quarters, which lends for the opportunity to bracket.

So I'm thinking maybe you will see a heavy dose of bracket against Jefferson. I do wonder if they'll play a little bit more man because maybe they'll throw in a couple double tags in there, but I don't know. Yeah, I'd be, you know, I don't, I have to look at. Minnesota's the rest of the roster, but they got Thielen, obviously, who's a good player. They're probably, they're playing quarters. They're kind of pretty, like, you know, almost double bracket on those guys. Because Thielen's still a good receiver.

Absolutely. You know, I know he's all, he's up in age and everything, but like, he's still going to be very productive if you don't cover him. So, um, there from a, you know, I think Irv Smith is, you know, it's wait to be seen on him. Dalvin out of the backfield is obviously a threat, but like they don't really have anything else in terms of a passing game threat that's kind of been established for them. So quarters to get kind of like bracken on both those guys and then kind of see where it goes from there.

I think you have some other game plan things of like, all right, if this isn't working, this is what, you know, let's try this. So, yeah, I think that's how they should attack it at least. You mentioned Irv Smith. I don't know. The fantasy listeners are definitely going to want to talk about that because he only played 19 snaps against Green Bay. Johnny Munt played 40 snaps and he was, he got targeted more than than some. Smith as well. And was there an injury to Smith that I missed, Steve? Do you know? Not that I saw. Not anything significant, right? Yeah, that's, that's pretty wild to me.

I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of hype about Smith that's unfounded. I think that's always has been, right? Right. Like, even, even as a rookie when he wasn't hurt, like, he couldn't supplant, like, you know, a 90-year-old Kyle Rudolph. And then, you know, yeah, and Tyler Conklin, like, passed him on the Debt Start 2, who is a late around pick from Central Michigan. I think he's all hype and there's nothing to back that up with just because he's, you know, an athletic guy out of Alabama or something like that doesn't mean that he's, there's so much more to the tight-in positions than this being athletic. He's just, he's just O.J. Howard 2.0.

It's this like continual like, this is it. This is the year. But even O.J. Howard, like, had, it gets productive because when teams forget to cover and he actually makes something happen. Yeah. That's the thing with O.J. Howard. That's true. You know what's interesting about Irv Smith? Is that athleticism has been his calling card, you know, since you back in college.

And I know the Combine isn't everything, but he really didn't test as a good athlete at all. Like, I mean, poor explosive numbers. He ran a good 40, I think, for his size. But poor explosive numbers, just mediocre, 10 split. Three Cone was terrible. Shuttle was not very good. So, I mean, there's a chance. Maybe he's just not that athletic.

And he's been kind of cast as this athletic pass catcher guy. And he doesn't really have the juice to, you know, to make anything happen after the catch or to really separate because he doesn't have any gas in those legs. So that's something worth considering. Now, where are we in? Like year four of the Irv Smith Jr. experiment? I mean, it's either year three or four or something like that. I think it's three. But, yeah, he was on my fantasy team first two years.

and I was fortunate to get the trade them to a team that was tanking last year. Because I saw the writing on the wall. I was just like, I don't know. Like, we'll see. Right on. Steve, why don't you do us a favor and throw out another game for us to talk about? All right. What about Tampa Bay, New Orleans?

New Orleans. I'm very interested in this one. Came back late. Ended up winning the game. Tampa Bay, you know, they beat Dallas. But I don't think it was anything spectacular. But I think this is a good matchup. It's the two clear-cut leaders in that division and probably two teams that are, you know,

contending to be at the top of the conference just with the somewhat depleted team talent over in the NFC. Yeah, as long as Taseom Hill plays like 30 snaps. It's a lock for New Orleans to win. I'm kidding. Obviously kidding. I mean, is Sean Payton walking into that, walking into their facilities and just like continually saying like,

I'll come back if you don't play Taysam Hill. He's that or he's got blackmail on the new regime. Like how is this translated to the next regime, John? Like how it's crazy. Like when Sean Payton left, I was like, okay, cool, Taysam Hill is probably done. That's a thing of the past. And then, nope, they're using them the exact same way. Yeah.

So, like, it's just Sean Payton that moved on. Like, most of the coaching staff is still there. And the front office is unchanged as far as I know, right? So, like, you know, maybe that wasn't a Sean Peyton decision. Maybe that was a whoever the GM is that, is that Ryan Pace? No, he went to the, he went to the, uh, he went to the, uh, the Bears and is no longer with the Bears now. So I can't remember who it is.

But it doesn't matter. Somebody else in that building must like. Mickey Loomis. There we go. So he might be him that likes him or something like that. And he's like, we paid him. You got to play him or something like that. So I don't know.

I really, I really don't know. You know, I think, I think though, from from this game perspective, you know, Tom Brady didn't look, you know,

he kind of just looked average on, on Sunday against the Cowboys. boys, it wasn't anything spectacular. I think both defenses actually played really well in that game for the most part. You know, Brady had a kind of uncharacteristic misread that was a dropped interception. It was pretty bad. That may have actually gone back for a pick six had he caught it. It's true.

But really, like, I think I'm not, you know, you're not going to be worried about Brady at all. So I think it'll be interesting to see week one. it was a lot of, you know, obviously first, first game as a head coach for Dennis Allen, you know, maybe some first half jitters and they kind of figured it out in the second half, obviously with the comeback. So it would be interesting to see because I think there's, you know, there's some intrigue with the Saints. They got a lot of talent on that offense and they have a really good defense generally. And they have a defense that's hard to to kind of like, kind of figure out, you know, like we have charters at PFF. And I think the Saints are probably

one of the hardest teams to chart that, you know, based on what I've heard from, from my, my people, or based on not heard, but the numbers I pull up on those. So it's, it's going to be interesting. You're talking in terms of coverages? Yeah, and coverages. They're always exotic in the back end. And, and Brady's had issues with them a couple years in a row now. So it's, it's not like, a, it's not like, oh, you know, PFF doesn't know how to church coverages. Like even Tom Brady struggles with them. So, no, we, we use the same. to chart or to train guys on cover charting. Yeah.

I mean, that's what I had Steve and Chris doing this summer was, was charting Saints defense because it's probably, if you could figure that out, there's probably not a team you can't figure out. So, yep, that's a great point.

Yeah. So I think, I think, I think though Brady might figure him out finally. Maybe he watched some tape once or something like that on him. And I think, you know, from a weapon standpoint,

I just don't think the Tampa Bay Buccaneers can be, like matched right right who knows what hollio's going to look like with that that offense moving forward to sure to that point i i'm excited for the evans latimore matchup it's been yeah a banger in the past latimore typically does really really well with that archetype and he's had probably evans number i mean shoot he got him tossed out of the game once so but he you know ladimore just went against drake london and his debut last week and we you know we chart separation on every play here at fantasy points. I know you probably do as well, John. And what we saw from London in his first game, even though he wasn't targeted very often, I thought he looked really, really good.

Much more tactical route runner than he got credit for coming out. And he made Latimore pay for a couple times. And unfortunately, didn't get the ball on the other end of that, but it's still good signs moving forward. And Mike Evans and London were kind of the cop coming out. You know, London was considered a slower version of Evans, so to speak. But shoot, if London had, if London had, had Lattimore's number last week, I kind of want to see how he bounces back against Evans, who is very similar this week. Yeah, that was my comp as well as Mike Evans for Drake London. And, you know, it's a good battle that you have with Marshawn Lattimore and Mike Evans every year. And some years, you know, some games, obviously Mike Evans gets the best and some games,

Latimer gets the best. And one of the things that like, you know, from Mike Evans, we get, the, he's like a very underrated route runner. I think, I think he's, you know, we, we, we've charted every single, you know, separation from, from the, every wide receiver in the NFL the past three years. And, you know, this is our fourth year doing it. And Evans is the best route runner based on those, on our numbers. Wow. Wow. Say that again?

Mike Evans is the best route runner in the NFL. And that also like adjusts for like opponent to like who he's going up against. Because so he faces some of the most difficult assignments in the NFL. And he's getting like so we, you know, I didn't run this numbers. And one of our, you know, R&D guys that did it. And it's a really good article. But it goes on like how, you know, their route running grade over expectation. And Evans like laps the field.

So. And it's. That's incredible. Wow. Yeah. Especially because he's got a really low target share. Yes. And that's, you know, that's probably one of the.

of the reasons why Brady doesn't, doesn't hit him as off in the past couple years is because he knows he's going up against maybe an elite type level guy that he's targeting. He's going to, I'm going to go to a guy and there's going to be, you know, easier target, whatever, and an easier defender. So that's, I mean, that, to me, is the reason why. And also, if you take out, if you take out screens in, like, RPO's, where he's just blocking on the play, like, so, like, his yards per route. number or guards per route run number goes up to like fifth best in the NFL.

So, you know, I think, I think there's, you know, there's that aspect of it too. But like I, you know, talk about Drake London. I mean, I love Drake London coming out. And I think he looked really good in week one. You know, he made, he made Marshawn Latimer look, look foolish on a few plays. And I think, I think he's going to, he could develop into that type of guy where it's like he's an underrated route runner because I think similar. similar to Mike Evans coming out of college, he had Johnny Mansell throwing him jump balls

that, you know, Mike Evans had to make, like make spectacular plays on it. It looked like he was always his coverage. So he was just a jump ball guy. And Drake London looked like that a lot of the times because Keaton Slovis is, you know, a bad quarterback. So I think, I think Drake London can, you know, kind of put maybe some turn, some heads that people think, oh, he's just a contested catch guy. And he's not really just that.

Yeah, I went on a mission during the draft. process to prove that London wasn't contested catch only guy. I actually went back and I did a true contested catch rate for every, I think the top 20 receivers in the draft. And what was crazy is London, his true contested catch rate was only like six and a half percent. Once you factor, so I went and watched every single target. And my takeaway was Slovis was just underthrowing him so often that it turned separation into contested catch situations. And you can't pin, that's not London's fault. Yeah. You know, and the one thing him and Evans have in common, too, that's, that's just remarkable is the way their bodies move for their size. Yeah. You know, 6-5, incredibly long stride, pretty weighty. I think Evans is a little lighter than London probably is. But, man, those guys are so silky smooth. You don't see 6-5 guys with that type of lateral quickness, the ability to sink those hips and explode. And they both have that in common. And, you know, Mike Evans is also my comp for London. I think we saw it in week one. You know, it's for you fantasy guys, stock up for me on London.

I think he went out against a really good corner and it had a hell of a game, you know, despite it being his first action and missing a good part of the end of training camp because he got hurt in the preseason. Yeah. So one one thing of note, too, is that with our, you know, obviously we only have three years of a full season date on our coverage charting or separation charting is that like it bears out that your ability. to separate and be a good route runner kind of shows up much sooner than when you get like actual targets from, you know, your quarterback. And sometimes that's, that's more, you know, maybe guys get get on a little bit quicker if your first round picks, but sometimes guys need, you know, that a second, third, you know, later round guys, maybe take those, is the reason why those guys take a little

bit longer to kind of catch on is because the quarterback maybe the team doesn't realize, oh, man, this guy is good. He's getting open. Let's get him the ball. Um, so I, it's, it's, stabilizes from a route running perspective. And I think with Drake London, yeah, I'm, I'm with you. Like, I think I thought beginning the season, he might have the best year of any rookie wide receiver, you know, especially considering like, you know, Kyle Pitts is going to get a whole ton of attention over there. And there's not really any other, you know, weapons that the Falcons have. You know, Cordero Patterson is obviously a weapon out of the backfield or whatever. But, you know, if Calvin Ridley was on the team, he might, he might actually, you know, you know,

I mean, you might have, like a monster year because you'd be getting all of the attention on two guys and Drake London wouldn't have to be the third man out. And that's what I've been with some of those guys like the Mike Evans is Drake London. I feel like it's, I feel like people in the draft process and things like that, they automatically see like, okay, he's a tall guy and he's made a couple, you know, jump ball contested catches. And then they just go and try to confirm that bias that they've already set aside instead of actually like digging in and saying like no let's just look at him as just a receiver prospect

and let's move on from there they like slap a label on them and then they work from there instead of you know working from a clean slate and going because like you like you guys said on some of those like he had a couple 83 routes which is you know they um run toward a post cut and then cut back out on an out route where getting in and out of those breaks he looked so smooth and i mean absolutely it got Lattimore stuck in mud. Like he, like he didn't, he got them turned around completely.

And so, I mean, for you, like you said, like we've said, for guys those, that size to be able to move like that. I mean,

it's why you see Mike Evans, every couple weeks explode for, you know, over 100 yards, a couple touchdowns is because they, I think Tom Brady just waits until Mike Evans gets a matchup on a week where he feels good about it. And then he just attacks it.

because he knows that Mike Evans is going to win. And I feel like Drake London can kind of do the same thing. You know, there was another Atlanta receiver that made a career on torching people with that blaze out. And that was Julio Jones. That was one of his best routes, routinely torch corners using that route. And London looks like he can do the same. It's funny.

It's funny the phenomenature for the routes. So Kyle Shanhan system calls it a blaze out. But pretty much most of like, you know, even like Sean McVay, they'll call it, they'll call it a shake route. Shake route. Yeah, like even Bruce Radkowski, who's our quarterback guru guy and obviously a former NFL quarterback, he calls it a shake route as well. So yeah, we at PFF, have that route and we call it a blaze out.

But I always think of it as a shake route because two NFL quarterbacks told me, no, that's a shake route. So I'm just like, all right, well, I'm going to go with what the quarterbacks say. All right, right. I'm sorry. They're the perfectionist of the group. So let's stick with that. Cool.

So back to the game, Saints versus the Buccaneers. How do you guys think this one's going to play out? I'm on the side of the Buccaneers. You know, it's hard to ever like bet against Tom Brady, even though he looked bad in both the games he played against the Saints last year. He actually got shut out in one of them, which is insane. But I think, I think, you know, Tom Brady's going to really kind of take that to heart. And even though he's one in four against the Saints

in his Buccaneers career. I think he really doesn't want that taste in his mouth, and he's going to get rid of it. And he remembers that stuff. He, like there was a sideline shot of them during the Dallas game. And I think one of the other Buccaneers players was like, do you know you're undefeated against the Cowboys?

And Tom Brady was like, yeah, I know. I'm 6'0. So like, he doesn't forget that stuff. I gosh, I want to go Saints, but it's hard to put my faith in James Winston in a game where he might have to make important throws against a overall good defense. I just, I don't, like, he's been out for so long. We haven't seen him a ton in a while. And I think he'll still be shaking off a little bit of that rust that he hadn't. week like the first half of week one um but i think it'll i think it'll be a close game ultimately i

think that i think that the buccaneers pull it out but i will say that i would like if the saints win i think it'll be on it will be on the back of jamess winson making throws to his really deep receiving group i that like that receiving group is very good for him steve are you friends sitting right now oh absolutely It seems like your fence. But you know what, actually, no, I'm going to go, I'm going to go Saints win. I'm going to say, I'm going to say, here we go. Yep, I'm saying, here we go.

You force my hand. I'm going to, I'm going to say Saints win. I'm going to say James Winston goes for over 300 yards. It's a revenge game for him too, right? I didn't think he, he missed one of them last year, right? Because he was hurt. Yeah, he missed one of it. Did he play in the first one and win that?

I think he did. Yeah, I have to look that up. Yeah. But, so I'm going to go, I'm going to go Buccaneers here. Main reason why, you know, the one weakness this team really has right now is, is potentially the interior offensive line. And like I've said, a hundred times already in the five episodes we've done, Steve. I'm not even convinced it's a weakness right now.

I know Luke Godkeed their second round pick didn't look great in his first start at left guard. But I thought Hainesie was fine, and I thought Shaq Mason was fine. I just don't think the Saints have the juice on the D-line anymore to really, get the pressure on Brady to the point where it's going to matter. And I think he's going to have, you know, I know the same secondary is pretty good. Their second level defenders in general are pretty good. I think Brady is really, really going to, you know, come out and play well. He's a plethora of weapons.

And, you know, if you're not going to pressure Brady, I think that's going to be an issue. Cam Jordan is not, I think he's getting older. He's not the same player he was. And they don't have, especially in the middle of that defense, they don't have anyone from the interior that's really going to put a lot of pressure on Brady and exploit that potential weakness that they have. So that's my take. If you want to beat Brady, the way to do it is getting his face quickly without blitzing.

So I don't see a way the Saints do that. I mean, the thing is the Saints of kind of styming him four out of five times in the past two years. So like the Saints have the ability. What's that? I think their pass rush was better though. I mean, Jordan was like two years ago, Cameron Jordan was still playing at a really high level. Trey Hendrickson had his breakout season.

David Annametta was, was balling out. They don't have that passers anymore. I don't think Davenport's the same player Hendrickson is. And I think Jordan's a little bit older. And he's, again, a year older this year even. So I don't know, the Saints really need a jump in play from guys like Davenport,

guys like Peyton Turner, who was the second round pick a couple years ago. Maybe it was the first. Was he a first round pick? But anyways, I just don't, I feel like that D-Line is the one area of the saints that has kind of regressed over the years while everything else has been pretty good. Yeah, it'll be, it'll be interesting to see. And I mean, I know that Tom Brady struggles with pressure when he gets to a certain level. Like, he doesn't struggle it on a play-to-play basis, but like in the game, if he gets pressured, like, over 40% of time, it generally kind of like starts getting to him.

and so you want to try to get the pressure on him early, which, you know, if you can confuse him on the back end, that's what makes him hold on to the ball. So like the secondary, like we talked about earlier, like they have a secondary that can do that.

So, and a scheme that does that. So it'll be, it'll just be in and see how Brady's able to bounce back from his, like, you know, last year where they got shut out in the last time they played. Yeah, we, so last year, we had Cam Jordan for a pass-risk win rate of just over 13%, which isn't...

For the season? Yeah, for the season, which isn't very good. He didn't look great to me last week as well. So I don't think he's... I mean, Marriota had a lot of time to throw last week. That is true. He had a lot of time to throw. I mean, obviously, the mobility aspect is much different there for him.

but there were times where he was able to kind of sit back there and pick things apart a little bit. Yeah, he was, so yeah, last year we had Cameron Jordan at 12.5%, so pretty dang close to what you have him as. And then, yeah, he only got one pressure last week against Marriota and one, like one beat. He had like a six and a half percent of one percentage. And that's supposed to be a not very good offense. line in Atlanta and they looked really like they looked really good. I remember watching that game and coming away from it like, wait a minute, what am I seeing here?

Because Atlanta's offensive line looks to be holding up really well, which is a concern because their talent level on the offensive line is not anywhere near the top half of the league. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely a concern. I would say so because just looking at these numbers or whatever. Like I hadn't even looked at Ken Jordan's numbers in quite some time.

And he's just been on the decline since 2019. Yeah. So, you know, he was an eight, from a grade perspective, he has an 83.1 in 2019, 75.3. The next year and last year was a 69.7. Like, that's just, that's a steadily declining of a guy that's now 33 years old. So, yeah, you know, he might, this might be his, this might be his, last year, based on the season numbers, you don't want to, like, you know, kind of end, you want to end on a high note, and he might, typically players don't end on high notes unless

you're, like, Peyton Manning. But even with Peyton Manning, it's like his high note was maired by his, the worst season he's ever had as a quarter. Yep. Yeah, Tristan Wharf is also very good. So, I know, I know the saints, they like to play sides. So I know Jordan plays on the left side mostly. Davenport plays on the other side.

I can't see Jordan, you know, he's not beating bad tackles anymore. I can't imagine him getting anything interested worse. So I agree. And that's going to be the matchup, yeah. Cool. So I think between Wednesday and then the show so far today, we've sufficiently covered week two. I do, it is, the show is called Take Talk, though. And so we got to talk about some takes before we wrap this thing up.

I know there's been a couple. that have caught my attention. I don't know about you guys. If you have anything, please get prepared to discuss. But the one I wanted to throw out right away. We kind of touched on the Falcons a little bit already. But I saw a tweet that said the following. Kyle Pitts is going to end up the DJ Moore of tight ends.

Pricy to acquire just to get mediocre results. And I think this is an utterly egregious take. One, because we've seen Kyle Pitts play 17. games in two because the talent there is just so incredible i can't see any way that possibly happens also yeah what's mediocre like right is it like like dj more still like not mediocre is three seasons in a row with over 1200 yards mediocre because if that's our that's our bar for mediocrity i think that a lot of receivers are in trouble i think we need to we're going to just start re-evaluating the position because look out because there's a lot of guys

that are going to be looking for jobs apparently. That's a great point. I didn't even like compare him to DJ Moore. Like, okay, well, that's going to be a pretty good career so far then for a tight end. Moore's been like firmly a wide receiver too in fantasy his entire career. In terms of football, he's clearly like a wide receiver one type of talent. Like I'm sorry to DJ Moore not score 10 touchdowns. Is that the reason we're calling for mediocrity because Julio Jones, mediocre career at best.

Who are the quarterbacks that DJ Morris had? He had Sam Darnold last year. Now this year, he's forced to have Baker Mayfield. Kyle Allen was in there. Kyle Allen, like PJ Walker. The ghost of Cam Newton. The ghost of Cam Newton. Tyler Heineke one year, I think.

Right. Like what is, what is, like, he's doing that with, like, garbage quarterback play. Like, you know, like, no offense to those quarterbacks. Maybe that's the tweeters point, though, right? So, Pitts had bad QB play last year with Matt Ryan. We've gone over the stat already, the first episode, I believe, but I'll do it again because it's such a mind-blowing stat. But last season, sorry, we were doing summer reviews this year, Chris Steve and I, and I was watching Kyle Pitts and Mark Andrews and all the top tight ends. and I just noticed that watching Pitts that he just never got targeted in the end zone. It was kind of this crazy anomaly. Matt Ryan had thrown the ball on the two-yard line a bunch of times, but he never thrown the ball in the end zone.

So I was like, you know what? That's weird because Julio Jones kind of had the same problem with Matt Ryan. I was like, you know what? That's weird because Calvin Ridley kind of, other than the year he had 10 touchdowns or whatever, those were all bombs. And then I went back and watched him, and then I went back and watched Roddy White. And what I realized was like, Matt Ryan is allergic to throwing into the end zone. So I had Chris, our data guy, pull the numbers.

And out of like 103 qualifying QBs over the last decade, Matt Ryan throw his percentage of red zone attempts that go into the end zone was ranked 101st. The guy legitimately won't throw into the end zone. He does not like tight windows. So I think that's why people, maybe this Twitter made this assumption because Pitz only scored the one or two touchdowns last year. But I think by proxy of getting rid of Matt Ryan, that numbers should just go. way up. What did Marcus Marriota's like red zone or end zone target numbers? I don't remember. I'd have to go back and look at. I didn't. That'd be good to look at because I would only assume

one, one, Marcus Marriota is going to be there for one year. Right. Until Desmond Ritter is given the job because of, for reasons, even though he's not for reasons. For reasons. Neither quarterback is going to be a good quarterback. in the NFL. So like, unless they decide to, like, actually draft the dude next year. So, yeah, I think Ritter is one of those guys, too. Like, you talk about, like, Drake London underthrowing his, you know, getting underthrowing or whatever.

He underthrew Alec Pierce all the time last year. Now Alic Pierce is going to deal with Matt Ryan. Yeah. And Indy. And now Desmond Ritter, who we assume will be the quarterback in the future for them, will underthrow Kyle Pitts and Drake London. Pierce had a good blend, though. I will say that.

Ritter's bad. I've got no doubt about that, but he at least put the ball up enough times where Pierce could try to run under it. London literally never got that opportunity from Slovis. Slovis never hit the man in stride unless it was a slant route. Like it was pretty bad. And then Pierce dropped an end zone target last week.

So hopefully that doesn't remind. Hopefully that's not Matt Ryan reminding himself. That's why I don't throw to the end zone. zone. Yeah, we'll have to dig into that Mario da Numer. I do think you're right. Here's my theory on quarterback for them and what they do moving forward. This is going to be wild.

Malik Willis is going to beat Ryan Tannahill out at the end of the year. And Ryan Tannahill will be an Atlanta falcon next year, reuniting with Arthur Smith. Oh, my goodness. That would be great for Atlanta, to be honest. Yeah, it would be great. Because, like, Tana Hill is a solid quarterback. Yep. He's not a guy.

Yeah, he's not going to put you on his back. And obviously, we've learned that. He's not that type of dude to be able to put you on his back and lead you to victories and stuff. But he's obviously an efficient enough quarterback that he's going to win you games in the regular season and put you in good positions. Just not to take you to that next level. And give him receivers like London and Pitts. And that'll elevate his game immediately. Oh, for sure.

Yeah. For sure. And the thing with Tannahill is he probably is the definition of a purgatory QB as far as skill level goes. Yeah, I think like Matt Stafford five years ago when he signed that deal extension with Detroit, it's like you weren't winning games because of Matt Stafford. You weren't losing games because of him either. I think Tanya Hill is kind of the same way. The difference between the two is you're not going to have to pay Tana Hill top five money probably. Right.

And so he's really not purgatory because he's not tying up so much your salary. In theory. Now, obviously, if they do an extension with them and it's crazy or whatever, then that's a whole other story. But from what it looks like, I don't think Tanna Hill is going to be a guy commanding top five in the league money. And that would be a good situation for Atlanta. It would be a nice, cheapest band-aid that they could put over the situation and get really solid play out of it. And anytime you can do that, it's kind of a win-win. Any other takes other than this regurgis Kyle Pittswood?

Well, one thing, did you guys see the two-o-old? quote from yesterday. Oh my gosh, dude. Because I, when did he learn how to talk about it? Why would you say that to the media? I don't know. I'm just a little. I'm just a little guy.

I can't see. That's like, like Drew, did Drew Breeze ever have that excuse? Like Drew Breeze, Drew Breeze is like, you know, one of the best quarterbacks of all time. And he, uh, you know,

he never complained that the fact that he was short. he just learned the offense and knew where guys would be and found passing lanes because he knew how to navigate the pocket. And through some of the best timing and anticipation we've ever seen. I mean, honestly. Probably the best. Like, he and Peyton Manning are right there with the best timing anticipation of any quarterback of all time. And you'd probably argue that Drew Brees had to have it more because he just couldn't see. But, like, even think about it too.

Like, even like a six foot three quarterback is trying to look over the helmets of six foot six. six guys. Right. So it's like, is he going to be able to see over those guys? Maybe a little bit better, but like, it's an excuse. It's like, it sounded like Baker Mayfield out there. And then that coupled with that night, Tyree Kill putting a tweet out of like 15, that pass from 15 and then some emoji.

Oh, yeah. Did you see that, John? You probably missed that. Because you're not like, you're the most Twitter savvy guy. No, definitely not the most pretty savvy guy, but I did not see it. So after one of Mahomes's poor throws, I think there was probably like six or seven of them. But after one of them, Tyreek tweeted, nice throw 15 with like a kind of a weird cry face-looking emoji. Oh, boy.

Yeah, and then every single Chiefs fan tweeted a video, like Rees applied with a video of Tua, skip and a ball to Tyreek this past week. Yeah, I think, I think Tyreek, Karek is realizing the error of his ways. I mean, I don't know if how much of his choice was his to get traded to Miami versus where he got to go or whatever. But obviously, like, you're downgrading massively at the quarterback position when you go from Hatchewahombs to Tunga Vailoa.

Yes. Have you guys watched Tua play? Did you guys watch him much this past weekend? Yes, we did. Like his, he cannot, oh my goodness, he has no arm strength. He can't push it down the field. Or outside the numbers even is tough for him. Oh, goodness.

It's so bad. Did you see the ball he skipped? The very first throw of the game. Very first throw of the game was a go ball, though I think Tyreek on the right side of the field. And he literally, the ball hit halfway between him and Tyreek. Skyler Thompson season is. Let's go. Now, as a Kansas fan,

How does that make you feel? So, so this is an interesting thing, right? So our rivalry for Kansas was, like, when I was there was always Missouri. And like Kansas State was a secondary rivalry. Oh. But like, yeah, like the rivalry between Kansas and Missouri was called the border war. So like it was it was the second longest running rivalry in college football until, you know, they ran away to the SEC. So with K-State, like, it's interesting because I grew up in Kansas as well,

and I was, I was never a K-State fan, but I always felt like I wanted them to do well, except for against us, you know, so it was a weird, it wasn't like a hated rivalry with Kansas State, and it was an absolute hated rivalry when it came to Missouri. So like with Skyler Thompson. Like, I've, I liked Skyler Thompson in college. The thing is too, probably that plays a part. And for me is that, like, I grew up with that with Bill Snyder as the head coach of Kansas State. And Bill Snyder is, like, one of the best individuals, humans on the planet.

Yeah, like, how can you dislike it? I loved Bill Snyder. Like, everything he brought to that program, like, what he stood for, how he ran the program. Just a, I mean, a phenomenal individual. So, like, it's hard to. for me to root against Kansas State because of, because of Bill Snyder. That's interesting.

I didn't realize Kansas had an out-of-state team as their main rival. That's kind of like Michigan. It's like Ohio State is their main rival, but Michigan State is also a rival, but it's not like their main rival. Yep. Who is the head coach in you were at Kansas? Was it Mangino?

Mangino, yeah. Mark Mangino was when I was there. Nice. Yeah. I like Mark. I like, he was a good head coach. He got a bad rap. when it came to all the allegations against him.

It was not, it was not. They were unfounded, that's for sure. Right on. Steve, any more takes before we wrap this up that we need to dive into? One thing I just like want to touch on is every single time a good quarterback like a Holmes or Herbert or yeah, a Brady, not even so much Brady. it's more of the younger quarterbacks now where if they make a bad throw, the immediate reaction is,

oh my gosh, if insert my quarterback here through that pass, we would, Twitter would be lighting him up or people would be lighting him up. Even though, like, Mahomes and Herbert do get, like, they get the proper doxing for when they throw,

when they make a bad throw, but just this like it's not really a take it's just like the retread of trying to trying to play like the victim of my quarterback is so hated and see he's just as good as this guy if you just but you guys don't say that about mahomes or herber you always say that about my quarterback and uh i mean the big one is two is one of the big ones that everybody that dolphins fan specific are like jump out there they're the first to jump on that every time and they ride they ride hard and it's i don't know if it's a coping mechanism like copium yeah like guys you know like say something if you're being held under captive you don't have to ride for two of this hard but it's um i don't know just like that aspect of of nfl fandom is just so exhausting yeah it goes both ways too right? Because I've seen a lot of like, you know, Stafford will make a good throw or Tannahill make a good throw and someone will tweet, if Mahomes made this throw, it would have gone viral or

something like. Right. That's a bad. That's a big one with Stafford fans. You see that a lot where he'll make a no look throw and then it properly gets celebrated by everybody in the national media. But, you know, because I don't know, you like you didn't see it three times and five, the video three times in five tweets like all of a sudden Stafford's not properly being praised and Mahomes would be elevated to Queen of England. God status. God status.

Yeah. Like guys, it's, I promise, it all, it all evens out over the course of the season. And also, yes it does. Sometimes guess what? Your quarterback's just not that good. Deal with it. Just accept it. It's okay.

Not everybody has a great quarterback. I don't sit, like, I promise as, you know, as a Lions van, I don't, every time that Jared Goff makes a good throw, I don't sit here. And I'm like, see, if someone else made that throw, I'm like, no, okay, Jared Goff made a good throw. Let's wait until he makes a bad throw so that he can even himself out because it's inevitable. Yes. Yes.

Oh, well, that's good stuff, guys. I think we should wrap here. John, thank you so much for being on the show. That's been my pleasure, fellas. It was a blast. Enjoy talking ball and then also talking takes. So, yeah, it's been fun. We'll get you back on here too at various points to the season for sure.

Probably more on the Friday episode. But yeah, we'll get you back on. Way more available on Fridays than I am on Wednesdays. I know all that does. It's actually a pain for Steve and I to record on Wednesdays. I can't imagine. I know. It's like quick.

Quick. We have a free two hours. Go, go, go. Yep. Oh, and you, I mean, because you do college as well. So, like, today is basically your day off. Yep. Really.

So, like, thanks for taking. Usually. I'm still working. Okay. Well, thanks for spending part of your presumptive day off with us because that means a lot. And I know Steve and I at least get Saturdays to recharge the batteries, but, man, it's, you know, week to week. The job that we do guys is intense, to say the least, from Sunday to, like, probably,

what, Tuesday night for Steve and I, starts clearing up a little bit. I'm not sure about you, John, but, yeah. It doesn't clear up until basically Saturday. Like Thursdays, especially the first month of the season is brutal. Because you talk about a college slate that starts with 113 games on the first, like, NFL weekend. There are 113 college games the day before that.

Yeah. That makes my head hurt just thinking about it. It basically doesn't free up until February. What are we talking about? Yeah. Pretty much. I was thinking I might be able to get to the golf course today, and that's not happening. Maybe in a couple weeks.

I'll take the blame for that. I'm sorry. Well, right on, guys. So thanks again, John. I am Brett Whitefield. My co-host is Steve O'Rourke. You're listening to Take Talk podcast. We're out.

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