Fantasy Football Daily - 2022 Take Talk Episode 15

Episode Date: October 21, 2022

Fantasy Points' own Chris Wecht (ChrisWechtFF) joins hosts Brett Whitefield (@BGWhitefield) and Steven ORourke (@callmesteveo7) to discuss Week 7's Thursday Night Football game and the blockbuster Christian McCaffrey trade to the 49ers. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/fantasy-points-podcast/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's time for the Fantasy Points podcast brought to you by FantasyPoint.com. Top-level fantasy football and NFL betting analysis from every perspective and angle, from numbers to the film room, with a single goal to help you score more fantasy points. Welcome in to another episode of the Take Talk podcast. I am your host, Brett Whitefield, with my co-host, Stephen Rourke, and our guest today, who is a fellow fantasy points guy this is his second appearance on the show we have chris whacked what's up chris and steve hey what's on going on guys excited to be back on with you yeah man um we are excited to have you i know we've been doing you know making like a map around the world

with our friday guests but i figured it was a good time to have you back it's been about a month so yeah uh a lot changed since the last time I was on here. Still a lot of bad football being played, but a lot of different things about teams have changed since the last time I was on here to talk about it. I think last time we were talking about Wence actually playing pretty well.

That is definitely not the case anymore. It's crazy too, because this is, technically we tried to do the Friday pod. The initial goal was to do a preview pod. But every week we look at the schedule and we're just like, there's like one or two games we're talking about. There's a lot of bad football being played right now.

And so this episode has evolved into a lot of things. We've talked to some fantasy. We've talked some college football, some team building stuff. But yeah, man, a lot has definitely changed. But one thing that is consistent is the less than savory play week to week. So do you think we're just snobs at this point or what's going on? I don't think it's just us. I feel like this is a pretty large sentiment throughout the football community.

I feel like a lot of people are asking the same questions of why, you know, why is offensive scoring down? Why is it seem like we have some of the worst QV play we've ever had? Yeah, I don't think it's just us. It's just, I think offenses are going through a transition period where defenses have caught up a little bit to them. And we're just working through the growing pains. The scales definitely tip. back and forth. When you say football community, though, are you talking like football Twitter

or your average viewer? I was more talking football Twitter because we basically live in that. I don't know about the average person. I don't talk to normal football people anymore. I know. That's the thing. It's like I think about it. And I'm like, yeah, I guess I really don't, I don't like sit and ask people who just watch football casually. Like, what do you think of football so far this year because like we live in we live in such this echo chamber of just like having these thoughts of like offenses are terrible defenses are great like football season's terrible so far and like I mean I obviously fall into this I looked at the next this week's slate and I was like oh my gosh this is embarrassing how how like uninteresting a lot of these games are but I don't know if

the average football fan is just still at the point where they're like, all right, football. That's all they care about. I do think that's accurate. So football Twitter for sure, we're all kind of, that's why I said, are we just snobs or what? And I think it is part of that. Because when I talk to like, even my dad, for example, he's a huge football fan. I'm in a dynasty league with, actually Chris is in that league as well.

It's a pretty competitive league, even though it's about 50% football people. and 50% casual fans. Right. When I talk to those guys, though, it's like they're not aware of what we see. Like, I'll get texts from friends and family, like after the pod, and they're like, man, you guys talk about football just being bad. And like, I don't get it. Like, why is it so bad?

And I'm like, just watch it. Right there in front of you. So it makes it because we are like, once you kind of work in the space, you are definitely in like a bubble, you know, you're insulated to like, like, normal people thoughts and just like go listen to talk radio in your local town like i don't know yeah they probably aren't complaining nearly like we are no also they we don't have the option to not watch uh commanders bears Thursday night football right and multiple times at that yeah so they can they can choose to tune in when they want to tune in whereas our entire that's true too whether we they have

whether everybody, like we chart every game so we watch, obviously have to watch. But even the people that are in our industry that don't necessarily have to chart and watch every game, they still feel like they need to because it's an obsession, obviously. So for like dad's point of view, he loves watching guys on his fantasy teams.

Right. So he has Kyler Murray in the league. He definitely sat down to watch last night's game. You know, like that's just, I feel like that's not abnormal though. And so. But I plan. to the flag last week with that Commander's Bears game. I said, I'm not watching this live,

because I'm going to have to watch it four or five times for work. So I'm not watching this live. And I didn't. I mean, I watched maybe the last five or six minutes of that game live. But yeah. Well, it's transition then. So did you guys tune in last night? Did you watch? I did watch. I was actually excited to watch this game. I thought it was one of the better Thursday night matchups we've had. probably since, what was that, Chargers, Chiefs back in like week two. Yeah. So I thought it was an interesting team.

I mean, the Cardinals were going through some pretty rough offensive stretches here before this game and started to look better this week. But they still are an interesting team more or less. And the Saints are just like they're something. So that actually got me thinking with last night's game. And it kind of also ties in with the Christian McCaffrey trade. Are the Saints the most delusional franchise in the NFL? And the reason I say it ties in with the Niners as well as I don't think they're far behind.

I just, I'll hear what you guys say first. And then I'll tell you why I was thinking this. Okay. Well, we'll get to the Niners. I know what you're thinking. It's like the Saints made a bunch of investments for this year, presumably. And then they're just not very good for whatever reason. But again, even then you can still go back and like, I don't know, even those late Breeze years.

Like there was a little bit of, there was a little bit of delusion there as far as like you saw it the last like two to three years of breeze. the A dot was like plummeting. He just couldn't make some of the throws. And I still think that they were kind of, they were still kind of investing in the short term in spots. And like, I don't know. Yeah, I, that's a good question because it is funny. Because like, in a way they are.

Like everybody, I feel like everybody else saw this team and was like, ooh, this is a transition team. But the Saints had Jay, they had James rolling healthy. And I think that they thought that. that all right, this is a year to go all in. Yeah, it's not even the assets they trade traded for the future. I think that's definitely a major part of it. But it goes down to the coaching level.

The fact that Taysam Hill is as involved in this offense as he is every week, like, so he's, so they gave him a shot to be their starting QB. And they said, now you're not good enough to do that. So then, so then they pretty much just use him as a gadget player, which is fine. You want to QB sneak with him here and there? You want to have him play? But he plays like this middle ground of snaps. Like he's out there too much, but not enough.

It's like they said, you're not good enough to be our QB all the time, but you're good enough for us to waste snaps on you more than we probably should when guys like Alvin Camara aren't getting the touches that they probably should. Chris Alaves look great so far. Obviously, Michael Thomas is hurt right now, but when he was healthy, he was playing well. it's just they just there there's so many decisions that they make from their GM the way their GM operated with trading these future picks and their coaching seems to operate they're all it just makes no sense Kevin White was playing significant snaps last night did you guys know

Kevin White was still in the league before last night because I did not like before they announced his name I like looked at it and I'm like white I'm like white white who would this be and I was like oh my gosh, I think that's Kevin White. And then they said it. And I was like, oh, my, like, I think that was his first reception since 2019 in a regular season game. And he had been, like, he was on the practice squad. He looked explosive as heck. I know.

His acceleration was awesome. He caught that ball and he turned up the field. And that was, that's not a lot of guys can do that. So he'll probably be starting for them moving forward because he showed. Some explosiveness on one play. They seem to have really prioritized explosive ability with the receiver core lately. Like they have him, they have, is it Rashid Shahid? Yep.

That dude is a freak. And then they got a Lave who's also a sprinter. Like these guys are all super explosive. They're kind of building, it seems like they're building the receiver core that way. I like it. Oh, Deonti Hardy as well is a very explosive guy. Let me ask you guys this, though. So they probably are pretty delusional.

I for sure agree with that. They've terrible management of draft assets over the years, weird contracts to kind of keep the band together, Taysam Hill being the main one there. Do you think that 2017 draft class, probably the best draft class of the history of modern NFL? Did that set them up for failure, even though they hit on every single pick?

So they drafted seven guys in that draft. All seven of them are starters in the NFL, and four of them are all pro-caliber players. So you have Marshawn Latimore with their first pick. Ryan Ramchick. Ramchick's one of the best tackles in the league. Latimore is capable of being one of the best corners in the league. I know he's pretty up and down based on his mood, it seems like. Marcus Williams, phenomenal deep safety.

Alvin Camara, obviously great running back. Alex Anzalone, you know, he's a starting linebacker in Detroit. Not a very good player, but he's not like, you know, bottom of the barrel either. Trey Hendrickson is a very formidable pass rusher. Wouldn't say he's like an elite tier guy, but he's a very, very good player. And then Al-Qaedaim Mohammed,

who's he's starting every game in Chicago right now. I mean, this is an insane draft class. Yeah, to literally hit on all seven players. Like you don't typically draft seven guys and they all turn out to be starters in the NFL, let alone four of the,

those guys being all pro caliber starters. I mean, that's a ridiculous draft class. So I kind of feel like the Saints were on the downturn, and then they hit that draft class, and it re-kind of repopled them into, you know, being pretty good. And then they started making, that's when the bad decisions started happening, right? They traded a future first to move up in the first from Marcus Davenport,

so they didn't have a first the next year. Then they traded up in the first again for Cesar Ruiz, which I think costs them a second round pick. And then obviously this year, trading up for Alave, trading up for penning. Now they have, what, a top three pick next year that's going to Philly? Yeah. Yeah, it's not.

I think it's obviously nobody else has played this week yet, but I think it's four overall right now. Yeah. All the while doing this, you know, knowing they had a severely aging quarterback who was on the way out and then trying to bandaid that with guys like James Winston, Taysam Hill and Andy Dund. Dalton.

It's like it's almost, it's like a mood disorder, Chris. Like they're delusional in that they thought they were capable of winning, yet they banked that on the heels of Winston, Dalton, and Hill. That's a really weird contradiction to me. And I still think that that's part of where the delusion comes in is that they thought that their system and things like that. I think that they thought that they didn't need an elite quarterback to get them to, like, the playoffs or anything. They thought that this was a roster that could take an average to semi-belo-average quarterback and elevate them to the playoffs.

Yeah, so that draft class was they were coming off of a playoff appearance, right? They were still, like, pretty, if I remember right? They had gone to seven and nine in the year before in 2016. Okay. So then they came back. All right. So you're right, Brett. When they drafted that class, that kind of pushed them back into playoff contention. But that, that group that, so the names you listed off, all like you said, very solid players. But think of a lot of those are also probably positions that a rebuilding team shouldn't be investing in. Marshaun Latimer is a corner. Totally fine. Bad teams need to build secondary. taking offensive line help is never a bad thing. But then Marcus Williams is probably not the safety is probably not the best pick for a rebuilding team. A running back for sure isn't.

So while yes, the 2017 class seemed to have pushed them back into relevance, it also they were being delusional when they picked a lot of those players too in the state of their team at that time. Breeze was still pretty good then. They probably thought they could turn things. around but those aren't the positions that you really want to turn your team around quickly and get you to a Super Bowl. The Camara pick too is interesting because they still had a youngish Mark Ingram on the

team who they selected in the first round. And who was playing, who was starting to kind of come into his own at that point and was playing pretty well. Yeah. And was Darren Sproul still there? Was he on the Eagles by then? I don't remember. Oh, I don't know.

but regardless they've had they've had success getting stuff out of pretty much any back that they put in that system dating back to to the sprolls ingram reggie bush pretty much anybody has done well there so investing in camara while yes absolutely a great player probably not the best pick they could have made at the time yeah right i'm trying to cooper cup went two picks after. That certainly would have done much more than Camara's done for them. There's a lot of misses, obviously, too, that went after Camara. But Chris Godwin, another one. Yeah, I mean, Camara, I thought they got good value on him. I was huge on him that year. Absolute baller of a player.

And he did a lot for them early on in his career. Obviously, I don't think he's quite the same guy. But let's fast forward to this. season. What do you guys think is going wrong? Because this team, while I do think there's a good element of delusion with how they'd perform this year, I didn't expect this bad. I thought their defense would be really, really good. That secondary was supposed to be pretty good. Well, they ended up losing Marcus Williams and Chauncea Garner Johnson, which that's probably the death nail for them at this point. They've had a ton of injuries in the secondary, though. You know,

corners. I think were they missing all three of their starting corners? like week one starting corners yesterday yeah and Roby got hurt in on like the first drive Bradley yeah so they were down Chris Harris was playing on the outside with Alante Taylor on the other side and I forget who was mostly playing in the slot for them but yeah they were down

to the bare bones yeah so that's been a huge problem but I mean outside of Latimore are their other corners like aren't having been good even their starting quarter. Yeah, Debo has not played well this year. He's arguably been the worst corner in the NFL.

Yeah. Which doesn't make sense because he looked pretty good last year. Yeah, so I'm not going to kill. Yeah, I wouldn't kill them from thinking that, okay, we've got a solid corner starting duo. We've got losing Marcus Williams and Chauncee Gardner Johnson was probably too much for their safety core to handle in one season. Yeah.

And on the offensive side of the ball, they lost Taryn Armstead. Yep. That's what the Kevin Penning was supposed to fill the void. Right. And this goes back to things Steve and I have talked about with the Chargers. It's like when you lose, like losing players injury is one thing. Losing some of your best, like three or four of your best players is it's hard to overcome. And they lost.

Yeah. Not necessarily by injury, but they lost Williams, Chonsonigartner Johnson and Taryn Armstead. that's not good for I think they probably underrated the impact that those moves would have on their team. So then in your opinion, should they be doing, should they basically say, do what the Panthers are doing right now

and say, look, we screwed up, we made a mistake, let's try to salvage what we can out of some of the maybe older players that we still have. Yeah, after last night, I for sure would. I mean, they're two and five. It's not looking good. They have limited assets next year, right, as we've already discussed.

So maybe you should go back to playing Winston. I mean, what are you trying to learn from Andy Dalton at this point? Yeah, I agree. At least find out if Winston can recapture any of his younger days' QB magic that he used to have. Yeah, Dalton had a pretty nice roller coaster last night. I mean, he... He was all, I mean, obviously he had two pick sixes. One of them was not his fault.

But he did make some really good throws. I was surprised. He's only 34 years old, too, guys. It's not like he's ancient. Yeah, but it comes back to what, like, what do they think their team is? Do they think they have a roster that can take Andy Dalton into a playoff run? Or do they not? Well, no, no, no.

I don't think it's about that anymore at all. And I don't even think it's about finding out with James. I think you have to, who they decide to play a quarterback is about developing the young guys they have from here on now. It's all about the future. I think you can make a pretty solid argument that Andy Dalton is probably better for Chris Olavay. I think you can make the argument he's probably better for Rashid Shaheed or Shahid Rashid Rashid, whatever his name is. Dalton is a, he's a more accurate passer that throws the ball in rhythm. he throws the ball with good timing and anticipation.

Go look at Alave's 14 targets yesterday. Like the trust that they've already built, it's going to be great for Alave's confidence and his development. He looks like a veteran already, and a lot of that is because of Andy Dalton. When James Winston was in the game, Olave, he was tearing it up, but it was all on deep stuff.

Yeah. Basically all on deep. Like, it was just Yolo balls after yolo balls. And Alave looked like a legit number one receiver last night. Yeah. I mean, we've praised him endlessly on this show. But it's like each week he's taken another step. And last night was proof of that.

I mean, I wrote down some notes on him just like stuff you don't expect to see from rookies like scramble drill. It's a couple times Dalton's out of the pocket where Olavis working back to the football. He looks like he's been in the NFL for five, six years already, the way he's moving and making it easy on his quarterback. The way he's sitting down his routes and zone. and that timing that him and Dalton already have is crazy. You know, there's a lot of trust already being built there. So, yeah, Winston might have more raw talent, but I think you know now. I mean, what's Winston in year seven, year eight?

Well, what if he's Gina Smith? He doesn't have the physical tools, you know, Smith has. So listen, I do think Winston has got the opportunity has right now because of his draft profile and people not wanting to have another Geno Smith. The thing with Winston is we've never gone a long stretch of time where we haven't seen him on the field. I think he had a year. He played behind Breeze for a year, right? Or was it Teddy?

Right, he played behind Breeze for a year, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He sat behind me. He got some action that season. But from what they saw that year, they didn't then say, you know what, James is our guy. they signed Tasum Hill to a big extension

and he was supposed to be the guy last year. Yeah. I don't think it's a big deal who they start. I probably disagree a little that Andy Dalton is that much better for Alave versus Winston, but I don't think it's the end of the world what you're doing at QB.

It's more what you're doing everywhere else. I mean, do you think there, is there a specific player that comes to mind if they decide, hey, we need to start like trying to recruit recoup some assets here that they should try to move yeah they have a bunch um i'd start with michael thomas if you get a clean bill of health on michael thomas yeah if you can get in the

passive physical i maybe you even have to eat some of the contract i don't know but you you try to find a team you can unload them to the chiefs the rams i don't know somebody that feels like they need a little bit of go gusto and umph that's one Langerie would be another one. Oh, yeah. And they're not going to get anything back for him. They probably have to cut him, but that's fine. I'd say DiMario Davis, too.

Davis, Marcus Davenport. What about, what about Lattimore? I would trade him in a second, yeah. And I'm team cornerbacks matter. I look a lot, but. And he's not old or anything. Right. No, he's not old, but he makes a lot of money.

Yeah. He's been very inconsistent for them. I think maybe a change of scenery could be an order. It kind of reminds me of Jalen Ramsey and Jacksonville. All the potential in the world, he'd have amazing games and then would just get absolutely nuked in other games, and you just could not figure out why. Yeah. And then he goes to L.A. and kind of settles down a little bit. And I know he's had bad games here and there, but for the most part, he's a stud, you know. Yeah, it's been way more good than bad.

Yeah. Yeah. What about one of the other things? their offensive lineman. Like Ramchek's not young, right? He's 2017 draft class. He should be same age as Ladamore right around. No, no, no. He was a 25-year-old rookie.

I'll say he's older. Oh, yeah. Latimore was a 21-year-old rookie. There's a big, yeah, yeah, Ramchick is 28. Oh, 28. He's got a lot of years ahead of them. He does. He's younger than I thought.

I thought he was in his 30s. The definite, I mean, again, I don't think they can get anything for him, but Camara would make a ton of sense, obviously. Oh, yeah. Well, especially, and we'll get into the CMC stuff, but it sounds like there are multiple teams in on that and even two division teams in a bidding war over that. So maybe you now call the Rams and say, oh, you wanted CMC. We have basically the same guy. I mean, Camara and CMC are very close and what they do. Now, they win in different ways, but the things you can do with them is very similar. Yeah. Their overall usage profile.

Yeah. So I would definitely call the Rams and say, hey, whatever you offered for CMC, we'll do that for Camara and see where it goes. Like, if you get two seconds for Camara, that's a huge win, man. You get a second for a running back. I think that's a huge win. Facts. Yeah, I mean. If you can get more than you paid to get that running back, then you're doing great. Especially after you got five years out of him, five years. of elite production.

And I just think like that, that's one of those that it might kind of screw things for the deadline because I feel like that may have shot some value for like just what other teams will see this, see this deal now. And they'll start to their value, their value of things will change. And so hopefully it doesn't like make trades hard to get. done come deadline time. Yeah. Because that was a steep price to get for him.

Yeah, should we just jump into that then? Yeah, let's think. So. Thursday night enough. Yeah, actually, one more point I wanted to make on Thursday at football. If Dalton doesn't have the first pick six, the game's totally different, obviously. I really think the Cardinals defense got exploited. pretty good.

And that's kind of... I think this Cardinals defense is not bad. I think it's... They definitely have... There's some deep shots that teams have missed on them over the years, and the Saints hit one pretty early on to Shahid, right? They had a couple in that game.

Yeah. Yeah. So it definitely started to, but I... I think they're one of those defenses that is better than we think it is. It's definitely not, you know, the Cowboys defense or anything. But I think they're solid. So one of the things I told you yesterday, Chris, was like, because I was playing props. I wanted to play something on an Oliva over, and you were looking at it going, well, hey, the Cardinals have given up the fewest amount of deep passing this year in the league.

And I was like, that doesn't seem possible. Like, their secondary is just not good. So I actually went and watched every deep target that they've had. And Dave, there was like one, I think, I told you, it was good coverage on. there's a lot of overthrows, a lot of unforeseen circumstances that kind of have inflated and propped up that number. So I was comfortable. I played the Olavei over 23 and a half yards, longest reception.

And pretty quick. Yeah, he did it a couple times as well. And then Rashid Chihit had the long one. There was, was Kevin White's a deep target or was that intermediate? It was a crossing route. Yeah, it was close. I don't know. That was like a six yard.

It was like a six. Was it only six? Okay. It was pretty short. Yeah. But the theme of all game, I did all the, I tried all the coverages this morning. The thing I saw all game is that the Cardinals coverage is just not tight at all. They're playing a ton of zone and there's just a lot of holes to be exploited.

If they don't get home on the quarterback, like Dalton was just picking them apart, basically. Well, that's the thing. They blitz a ton. I don't know where they rank now, but they knew. they were one of like a top five blitz rate team. So there seems their philosophy is we know our secondary is going to have holes in it. We're just not going to let you get through your reads and find where that hole is. And we're just going to send it out here real quick.

And teams can, teams can neutralize that a number of ways, like screens being a big thing. I know that the Eagles like screen them to death. I want to say they ran like 10 screens when the Eagles played the Cardinals. Yeah. Well, they play a lot of too high. If you're going to play too high, you're going to get. screen to death. Yeah.

So, but I still think they're, you know, I don't, I don't think they're the defense from previous years where it was like an automatic going to give up 30 plus points pretty much every way, or like 25 plus. Yeah. Well, a crazy thing is that like, and this is, I mean, all the credit in the world of Vance Joseph over there because like they've pretty much improved on defense almost every year for the last like two or three years. I thought that this year was the year that they were really going to take a downturn because I thought that their talent level, especially in the

secondary wasn't there. But like, Vance Joseph has schemed this up in a way that their secondary isn't really getting exposed too much. I mean, you saw it yesterday where it started, like you said, the cracks started to show. But like on paper, this secondary should be getting torn up way more than than it has been. And I mean, it's, yeah, they just, they scheme it up well. And I think Isaiah Simmons has kind of settled into his own a little bit. But it is. It helps that they have athletes everywhere.

That's true. They like, and that's kind of their team. That's where they've built their team around is just kind of like athletic guys. But it's just crazy how like little they've invested in the defensive side of the ball compared to the offensive side of the ball. and how consistent their defense has been the last three years compared to their offense. I don't know if this was a Saints specific game plan, but I think Simmons probably played the least amount of off-ball linebacker snaps.

He played all season last night. Yeah. They were doing something with him last night that was really fun where they're running some cover two. And instead of having a linebacker or a traditional linebacker fill that whole defender, that buck defender. Yeah. They were having Simmons do it. And the amount of range he has in that role is insane. So it basically played like a three high safety look,

but with, you know, cover two properties and rules. And it was pretty effective, actually. I think they only really gave up one big catch in that look. And it was one of the Olave, it was like an out that he set it down right between the linebacker and the corner. It was a nice, nice route. but question for you guys. I know we want to get to CMC, but we talked a lot about the Saints.

Cardinals are now three and four, and they've played some decent games recently. Is their season still a go? They got D-Hop back. D-Hop looks like D-Hop again. Like, are they still in it? Absolutely, they are. I was a big fan of this offense coming into the year.

It would have been better if Hopkins wasn't suspended, but between him, Hopkins, Hollywood, Ertz, and the production, none of the running backs are necessarily special, but the production they can get out of them is good enough. I'm not the biggest cliff offensive play caller fan, but I think the pieces they have are very, very good when they're all together. Like, I can't wait to see what Kyler can do. Hopefully Hollywood can get back and be, you know,

effective. I think on the broadcast last night they were saying it's only supposed to be like what was it, six weeks or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, so he's eligible to return in five weeks. Yeah.

They have a week 13 by. So you could easily see a week 14 return for him. Yeah. If they're still in it, I mean, that makes this offense very dangerous. I mean, Hopkins, Hollywood, Rondell Moore, Robbie Anderson,

Ertz, tons of weapons for Kyler to get the ball to. AJ Green got benched last night on the week when they lose, obviously they gained Hopkins, but they lost Marquis Brown, and then they decide to bench AJ Green. Yeah. I don't think he played a single snap last night. He did not. He didn't touch the field last night. Crazy.

Yeah. I mean, it's good because he's washed, but. Having Ron Dale, not AJ Green, having Rondale. having Ron Dale, Robbie Anderson, Marquis Brown, DeAndre Hopkins, I mean, that's probably one of the best receiving cores in the NFL. Yeah, yeah. If they're all healthy. At full strength, absolutely.

Yeah, Robbie Anderson's route tree was pretty funny last night. It was just all deep balls. There was nothing short of 25 yards. But going back to your original question, like, yes, I think the Cardinals are absolutely in this. And like, they're full go. Yeah, the Rams are a mess. Yeah, gas pedal all the way down because this is a division that could be one at 10 and 7.

Like that's a very realistic possibility. The Rams look to be a mess. The Seahawks are a fun team, but they just don't have enough talent. They're just not going to be there. They're going to play in a lot. They're going to be close a lot of games. But, like, you know, they just won't pull all of them out. And then San Fran, like, their defense is good, but they still have,

Jimmy G behind quarterback and he's shown to like throughout multiple regular seasons that like they're going to dump a few games just out of sheer like lack of offense. Like it's happened almost every year with Jimmy G and like four to five games their offense will just shut down and they end up losing like a 17 to 10 game. Well, it wasn't as low scoring, but it just happened this past week against the Falcons. They got behind and their offense just really couldn't dig him out of it. Right, exactly. And so those games are going to happen with Jimmy G. So realistically, the Cardinals are, I think if they're in their heads, between that and the NFC just kind of being not the best overall as well. I think if you're the Cardinals, you're looking at this,

like, all right, things are turning around. 10 wins is the aim point right now. Like, if you're a Cardinals fan or something, like you're looking at 10 wins, and that probably slides you into a wild card for sure and potentially gets you the division. I agree. I think they're still in it.

And it'll be interesting to see how it kind of unfolds. Because, you know, the 49ers not being able to come back from a deficit, it that's the way you fix that is you trade for a running back so i mean you you know if you if you struggle in negative game scripts then a new running back that costs a lot of money is definitely the way to fix that so um i'm i'm super curious to see how the 49ers now win every game because they fix all their problems yeah chris what's uh what was your like what was your initial reaction when you saw this go down? What was your initial reaction to this trade?

I thought, I mean, without even seeing the compensation, I thought this is probably a bad trade. I was like, unless they got him for, you know, a fifth round pick and maybe swap some other late round picks or something or something like that, but we just we knew that wasn't going to be the cost to get him so i was like all right so it's a bad trade i don't need to know what it is i just i know it's going to be bad whatever it is they they have drafted elie michael uh tyrian davis price tray sermon all with day two picks

over the past two years they've watched every running back under the sun jeff wilson Rahim Mostert, all of those running backs I just mentioned. Jordan Mason has looked okay this year, look good in this offense, and then said, we need some mortgage our future. Yeah, Jamichael Hastie. Yeah. CMC, without a doubt, is better than all of those players. 100%.

And without a doubt, well, can be better than they have been in that offense. But it just, I don't think it matters. It makes them a better team by like one or two percent. And I didn't even realize this until just now. I was just looking at it. I totally forgot they don't have a first round pick next year either. Right. They traded it to the Dolphins.

Right. They have, they don't have a first or a second next year. They traded one third, but I think they have, I think they got some extra third round picks from coaches leaving to go. Yeah, for the Sala and the McDaniel. higher. Yeah. So they do have some late, one or two late third round picks even after this trade.

But how do they go, so they think they can win this year, obviously, which I don't totally blame them with the state of the NFC. Right. But moving, I mean, how are they going to fix their QB problem moving forward unless they still have hope for Trey Lance? And also, like, I saw someone say this on Twitter and it was such a great point. But like the whole point of the Kyle Shanahan system is that you're not supposed to need to invest resources in running back. You're supposed to be able to just plug and play guys off the street and still have an effective running game because you have the linemen because you have the.

exotic runs because you mix in Devo Samuel like you're supposed to not need to pay or go after a big name running back you can like be the team that plays the the six rounder but they've continually but they've also gone like opposite of that with like all their day two investments into it um yeah i mean that goes back to to mike shanahan and denver so it didn't matter whoever the starting running back in Denver was, you could literally count on them for like a thousand yards and ten touchdowns in fantasy. It did not matter.

Yeah. Like, think about the cast of characters that have gone for a thousand yards in that offense over the years, whether it was the Denver system or in Washington when they were doing it or now in San Francisco. It's just, it's pretty nuts, man. I mean, Alphan Morris went for 1,500 yards as a rookie. That's who I did.

That system. Undrafted. That was the first person that came. to my mind was Alfred Morris. Yeah, this is the only spot where he, any, whether, I don't think his dad ever really heavily invested in running backs either, but definitely Kyle has definitely not really ever invested in running back until recently. Yeah. This regime was drafted six running backs.

Yeah. And then also signed guys like Tevin Coleman to big contracts, Jerich McKinnon to big contracts. They found, he mostered off a scrap heap. He ended up being the best one of all of them. Did that start when Frank Gore finally retired? Because I know he was there when Shanahan first got there. And I don't. Yeah, they were drafting running backs when he was still there.

Okay. So it basically started as soon as Kyle Shanahan got hired there. Yeah, they drafted more. Wow. I mean, even the regime before them, too. I mean, I think I pulled the stat. 14 running backs in 14 years they've drafted. Wow.

And some of them, they've doubled, like some years they didn't draft the running back and there's years where they've drafted two or even three. But you're saying that goes pre-John Lynch. He goes pre-John Lynch too. It's crazy. So they draft like multiple years in a row. They took a day two or hot. Let's see.

Michael James in the second round one year. Yeah. The next year Marcus Latimore in the fourth round. The next year Carlos Hyde in the second round. The next year Michael or Mike Davis in the fourth round. The next year Calvin Taylor. The next year, Joe Williams. Like it's literally insane.

They draft running backs all the time. And like I don't think that's like I understand a day three investment in a running back just because the upside can be there. So I get that of like just throwing, you know, just kind of throwing it at the wall and seeing, you know, if a guy sticks because, you know, if a six rounder you're not expecting to get a ton out of them necessarily. And running back has like the most potential for upside. I feel like for value. It's better than a special teams linebacker. Right, right. Whose upside is only special teams.

To back up your point, too, Steve, like the two best running backs in that system since Shanahan's been there has probably been Rahim Moster and maybe Jeff Wilson. Right. And they're both UDFAs. Also, you can look as recent as last year. They drafted Trace Sermin in the third round,

high draft pick, and they drafted Eli Mitchell in the sixth round. The sixth rounder was better. So the system is designed to work no matter who's in there. The thing with the CMC trade that is specifically irritating is I don't think they will use him to his fullest capacity. So not only do they give up a bunch of assets. It's not really, they're not going to get the payoff that they would want. He's not going to be the Carolina CMC. For one, he's a lot older.

I mean, he's still a relatively young guy, but he's old and running back years. he's dealt with injuries constantly since 2020 but they lead the league in how few they target running backs so I should say they're last in the league and target share for running backs last year I think running backs only caught just over 50 passes the entire season it's unless they're having a philosophical change in the middle of the season which is probably more alarming than people realize

they're not going to get you know what's they want out of CMC or what they paid for. Yeah. So what do you, what do you, you know, you're, your, you're in the room with Kyle Shanahan. He's asking you, hey, I've got this player. What do we, what do we, what do we do we do to maximize his ability here? What do you, what do you envision that offense being?

Because like you said, they don't throw the running back. So what are they, what are they going to remove and what are they going to add to make, to get the best out of him? What would you do anyway? What would I do? Well, that's tough because I wouldn't have put myself in this situation. Right. Yeah.

John Lynch came to you and said, hey, I traded for this guy. You've got to make the most of them. I mean, I would try to implement some of the things Carolina did in the passing game with him. No, obviously, he catches a ton of checkdowns for sure. But you can scheme him a little bit. He can play in the slot. He can run some really cool routes out of the backfield, some Texas routes where he's getting, If he's getting a one-on-one matchup with the linebacker,

you should expect him to win that. But it only compounds the issue of now they have, they're a low pass-value offense, and they have Debo Samuel, George Kittle, Brandon Ayuk, now Christian McCaffrey. Joanne Jennings, yeah, I said Kittle, yeah. Joanne Jennings is a pretty good player. They drafted a receiver in the third round this year,

and Danny Gray, who has hardly seen the field. Yeah. They, I just don't see how this works. But I would probably, yeah, I would implement some of those past concepts. So who is it taking away from the most, do you think? Well, exactly. I don't want to have to make that. I don't, throwing the running back is not that valuable.

I would much rather put the ball in Iyuk or Samuel's hands. So as far as the run scheme goes, you can maybe switch it up a little bit, go to some more man-gap concept. McCaffrey is a between-the-tackles runner. I know he's had success this year on some outside zone stuff, but he's not this stretch zone player that Shanahan probably thinks he is. That's confusing to me. It's like McCaffrey is between the tackles runner.

I know a lot of people think he's undersized, so he's not, but no, he is. That's where he thrives. So I would implement more power, some more counter, some pole lead stuff. I mean, 40-9ers do a decent bit of pull lead. They usually use some pinpole stuff with like a stretch zone. concept where they'll actually pull the playside tackle, which is a real fun concept they do, especially with Trent Williams, because he's an animal. I would try to get to more stuff like that where it's Gap and McAfri's got a hole to hit and he can make a linebacker miss in the

hole and then, you know, generate some yards after contact that way. But the past game, Chris, I don't have answers for you. I don't know. I don't know. Do you think we see a lot of, know, McCaffrey, Debo are in the huddle together, but Debo's in the backfield, McCaffrey's lined up in the spot or something. Yeah. You've been seeing them do that with Eli and with Wilson. Do you think that is what maybe Shanahan most valued in this?

Is that when he lined up Mitchell or Wilson out wide, they weren't the receiving threats that he would have wanted to do that with? And do you think there's value in that? Does it matter that they weren't that great a pass catcher as then McCaffrey is? minimal value it's it's basically an expensive as decoy is what it is and at that point it's like okay just go like why why don't we just go invest in a slot receiver go pay go pay a quarter of the price and go get a slot receiver from someone that has upside or something like that they have one of the best slot receivers in the game too in debo so it's frustrating when they move

Debo to the back field. Yeah, exactly. I know, I know. Without having to come out with no running backs in the huddle because they want to keep in the deep, the opposing defense an extra linebacker on the field or something. Is Kyle Shahy just going to go full gadget and just it's just going to be a free for all on their offense? Is that what's going to happen?

It's just going to be, it's just going to be Debo and McCaffrey motioning 24-7 and just like wider Cesar. He's getting the bell. Exactly. Like, they're going to play a version of the wing T, just, or honestly, just the veer offense. And then they had the best probably receiving fullback in the NFL and use check. Right.

True. Oh, my God. That's a great point. He is, I mean, he's kind of just like a bigger, slower McCaffrey. Or a smaller George Kittle. Yes. Yeah. That's a great example.

He's like between McCaffrey. Jeffrey and Kittle. They're the three evolutions of each other. Yeah, exactly. They're like different weight classes, you know, for a big of this. Kiddle is the one that I feel for the most because I feel like he's got so much talent. And there's just, I don't see how he can possibly be viewed. I mean, he'll always be viewed as an elite tight end, but like his production is just not going to, I don't think, I don't see how it remotely lives up to the Andrews, the Kelsey's.

I mean, yeah, that's. just where they like seem to be pulling targets from it's like everybody asks like okay this person's healthy where are those targets going to come from well they're all coming from kittle like yeah yeah i i do think it's probably a health thing with him they're trying to keep him preserved i imagine that at some point in the season they will unleash him i would hope so my hope um going back to the cmc thing though i do think a lot of people are overthinking this i think we have to we a lot of times we naturally give coaches benefit of the doubt. Like I see this, this tweet all the time. So-and-so wouldn't have spent so-and-so to not use him this way. Like, what are you talking about?

We see coaches make that mistake all the time. We see coaches draft guys in the first second round and never use them. So I don't think it's as simple as saying, well, they wouldn't have given up all those picks if they're not going to use McCaffrey the right way. You don't know that. Shanahan is as stubborn as they come as a play caller. He does not change what he does. So I think it's as simple as this. We already talked about their struggles in negative game script situations. I think Shanahan's looking at it like, okay, cool. Well, so if we start games and we run the ball a little bit more efficiently,

we won't get in those negative game script situations because we'll extend drives and we'll score points. I think it's an old school mindset. He's one of the weirdest coaches in the NFL because he is this young breed play caller with great play designs. Or I shouldn't say play caller, play designer. he's a great play designer has really cool concepts very innovative yet the way he calls the plays

is very old school in nature so it's like these two tensions it's like he has his dad in him too much but he's very forward thinking at the same time I just want him to unleash all those cool designs and all those cool concepts and just ramp it up in the past game and I know Jimmy's not great but I think he can do it

and I really think that this trade's going to bite them in the butt because I think they're going to double down and they're going to, they think they've now perfected the run game. And they're going to run the ball even more than they were. And sure, they'll get cut seeing creative with it here and there. You know, they'll put CMC in the slot with Debo in the backfield. Sure, they'll do that a few times a game,

but it's not a needle mover for me. So overall, I think this is a big time whiff for them. Do they make it farther than they did last year? Do they win the NFC championship game this year? They could just because the NFC is sort of junkie. But it's not because of this. Not because of this. Yeah.

Also, I hate being conspiratorial about things also, but part of me, I can't help but feeling like maybe this was an emotional decision because the Rams ran on this. Because they're a division opponent and they're probably, you know, until last night with the Cardinals having a good game, they're probably the biggest threat to you not winning your division. So I feel like Lynch probably heard that And was like, well, I can't let them get McAfrey. I'm going to get him. The Rams even have draft picks to give? I wonder if that's what I'm trying to look up. And even why you're looking that up,

like even that point extends to the Rams. Like, why are the Rams even involved here? Of all the things that the Rams have issues with right now, how in the world does, do less need and McVeigh come away with it and say it's running back. That's the issue. Well, Steve, any time you have a massive pass protection woes, the best way to fix that is to trade for a running back. Right. Like, I'm sorry, but this isn't, A, this isn't 19, this isn't the 1990s anymore. And B, you're not, you're not, you're not trying, like, as much as that, like, every once in a while, the nickname Dary Sanders will roll around. But like, there's no there's no running back in the league that's offensive line proof like there's

really not like how there's it just doesn't exist right now in the NFL there's a lot of good running backs but there's not like that guy that you can point to where it's like doesn't matter plan him in there he can get you yardage and so like how are the rams getting involved in thinking like that's a running back that's going to that's going to take us to the next level so the rams have they could have matched this the deal the nineers gave them they have their second and third round pick and then they don't have a fourth they don't have a fifth they've got some six and late round seven picks they have all their 20 24 early 224 picks so they could have matched it but basically they would not have selected a draft pick until round six next year if they matched it

well and the rumor was that it wasn't necessarily the price that kicked the rams out it was the fact that the Rams had to be conscious of they want to do other moves at the deadline was what I read was that it wasn't necessarily the price it was the price it was the price with the caveat

that like we want to they want to spend in other places so that's it so I mean I expect I think we all expected the Rams to be active at the deadline but I I think that I guess that that was part of it. That was in play as to why they did not end up coming through as the team to make the trade.

Interesting. All right, well, let's do this. So I do have a hard out this morning, gentlemen. So we can't extend this too long. But I don't think the 49ers were the best fit for CMC. And I'm inclined to say 90% of NFL team shouldn't be acquiring running backs for the price that the 49ers paid, especially when he has the contract he has. But with that said, was there a team that CMC made more sense for?

I have one in my mind, maybe two. I mean, Buffalo is the one. That's the team I was going to throw. Buffalo, KC, honestly. I'm going to throw Philly out there as well. And that's, you're a homer. But that's what that is, it's like what teams, if they don't already have it, Like what teams that are contending, what position can they afford to, like, luxury, have a luxury at?

And that's running back. But none of those teams, I think, all those three teams in particular are smart enough to not remotely give that up. Right. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The chiefs drafted Clyde Edwards O'A. in the first freaking round. That was all Mahomes, remember? Mahomes wanted it.

Dude. That set the franchise back, low key. but the bills are probably smart enough to not do it. And that staff is familiar with McCaffrey, obviously. And they were rumored to be the first team in on it, but I think when they saw the price tag, they're probably like, what the, no. But they would have used him the best.

I'm confident in that. Absolutely, because they do quite a bit of dump-offs and throws. Getting guys in space too. Yeah, and throws the running back. So I think that would have worked well. The Eagles would have worked incredibly, but I don't think the Eagles were ever in, because Howie Roseman is not in the...

He made the call and then heard, you won't... Okay, never mind. Yeah, right. He was like, oh, I was going to offer a seventh, but my... He heard he couldn't fleece them, so he got out of there real quickly. Yeah. Yeah. I think he traded for Jai, that Super Bowl year, and that was like a fourth round pick.

Yeah. And Jayae was definitely not McCaffrey, but he was still pretty good that year. So, like, that was probably... That was probably around his ceiling for what he was. would have been. Poor guy. I love J.J. When he was with the dolphins, man, that dude was just an absolute freak. He just had a chronic knee condition that everyone kind of knew his time in the NFL was very limited. And man, but I wish he would have got one massive payday just to go out in a blaze of glory.

You got close. Even then with Buffalo, though, I would, I even similar to the Rams, not as similar, but again, I would invest in offensive line over going to get a running back. Okay, great in concept. Who's trading a good offensive lineman? I mean, it's true, but like, you know, again, giving up assets for this guy, I don't think brings it, like, again, because even with, like, Buffalo, he adds value. He has more value in Buffalo than he would San Fran, or than he does in San Fran. but like even then wow how much does he move the needle in buffalo and just this is all getting down to this is all getting down to like running back value and how certain teams perceive it but like even then like in buffalo does he move it like two percentage points more than he does in san fran right which is always what it comes down to with with running backs right i have a fun hypothetical for you though steve yeah so let's say the lines go out and get mollywopped

by the Cowboys on Sunday. And they're staring down the barrel of a one in five record with, you know, just very meh. Yeah. And the Rams call you and say, hey, we'd like to acquire Taylor Decker. What would you need back for that to happen? Would you do? First of all, would you even do it? Would you even entertain the phone call?

No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. They don't have what you would need to do to trade it. Right. Okay, so Chris, what do you think it costs then? Probably a first round pick to start. They have their 2024 pick. That's what I'm saying.

Are you willing to punt that off to 2024? They already got the 2023 pick. Right, I know. But that's what I don't, if I was the Lions, I wouldn't want to wait until 2024 for that for me to get value out of that trade. What if you get the second this year and the first next? So then you're the lines you're looking at what probably four top top 40 picks again? That's not bad.

It probably would depend on if the lions think how good the Rams are and where those picks fall. Yeah. So the reason this even gets talked about for those needing context is Penae Sewell was, you know, a phenomenal left tackle in college. And he's a, he's probably the second best right tackle in football next to Lane Johnson. And he's only, he just turned 22 years old. He had 22 career starts before his 22nd birthday. Yeah. Which is pretty cool.

So there's a lot of people out there, a big conglomerate of people that think he should move back to the left side at some point to get your, you know, your money's worth out of them. But I don't necessarily buy that. I'd rather have Decker and Sewell than, uh, so if I were the lines, I probably wouldn't do it. But I think it is a conversation. People will start having if the lines, uh, take another tough loss this week.

So, but, and yeah. The lines are, they lack talent. So trading talent makes no sense. Offensive line is probably the one position when you're tanking where I don't think it makes sense to trade. Right. Unless he's like actually, you know, 32 or something like that. Like your offensive line is so important for the development of your offense. Also like trading proven talent for unproven talent at like a high value position.

Just like if you think like, you know, the people say like the building out of a team like top positions are like quarterback left tackle and then you know you can move to some other spots but like those two are up there at the top and so like if you have someone at left tackle that's a proven value like yeah it'd be silly it'd be silly to give it up when there are you know how many how many how many left tackles in the NFL can you like put a stamp of approval and say like like I trust on 90% of snaps. For me,

the hierarchy is quarterback, and then I have like a second bucket of wide receiver, corner, tackle, edge, pass rusher. And then everything else after that doesn't matter. But yeah,

I don't. Also, when you're team building, like the lines are specifically are in a spot where they might be adding a quarterback in the draft. Right. So you want to give him the best chance to succeed possible and having two elite tackles is probably a good start with doing that.

So, yeah, I mean, I think everyone kind of realizes that. And that's just like the value of having a elite to almost elite player at a position is that it then makes filling the positions around that person easier. Like if you have an elite wide receiver, the other guys you get at wide receiver don't necessarily need to be as good because you get more value out of the elite receiver. An elite tackle, like, you can put a little bit less than guard next to him and still get away with it. I mean, the lines did it on the opposite side with Sewell starting Stenberg for a while, like with that same thought process of like, okay, Sewell is good enough that he can kind of cover up some of the woes that Stenberg has in the passing, in like pass pro.

and so like there's so much value that just goes beyond just that goes beyond just the player when you have like an elite or close or like semi elite player at a position right oh sweet um we did this in an hour not bad any closing thoughts from you guys anything you want to throw out there i think we pretty much covered it and there's a lot to talk about from a game that honestly wasn't that close and and the CMC trade helped yeah yeah what a what a funny what a fun like late night drop as Thursday night football is coming to a close that that trade drops at like 11 p.m. That'll probably be the most exciting Thursday night football moment will have all season. Although next week's game looks to be like it has potential but which is what?

Tampa Bay Baltimore. Okay. So there's potential there. But like, overall, this week's a real sicko week for football. Like, this is,

this is a real tester of everybody's, how much do you really love football? Because there's some, there's some dicey games on the slate. Some games that like, you look at it and it's like, wow, I don't even know,

I don't even know where to start to even care. to even care about this game. Yeah. I don't think there's a 1 p.m. game where I'm like, I can't wait to see what this team does against this team. But hopefully this is just one of those weeks where we get a bunch of crazy finishes and it redeems itself. And it's, you know, I think we kind of had that a couple weeks ago where it was a really

bad slate. But there were a lot of good finishes in the 1 o'clock slate. So it redeems all. True. I mean, yes. If the games are competitive, it will end up being a good slate. It just, it's not sexy right. now. I don't look at this and go, oh, I get the signals from this.

All right, fellas. Let's get out of here. Yep. Okay, I am your host, Brett Whitefield, with my usual co-host, Stephen O'Rourke, and our guest, Chris Wecht, and we are out. Thanks for tuning in to this edition of the Fantasy Points podcast. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review on your favorite platform. Come join the roster at FantasyPoints.com.