Fantasy Football Daily - 2022 Take Talk Episode 18

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Brett Whitefield (@BGWhitefield) and Steven ORourke (@callmesteveo7) get into the chaos that ensued ahead of the NFL on Tuesday's trade deadline day and debate whether or not Tua Tagovailoa is a top-5 QB this year. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/fantasy-points-podcast/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At Capital One, we're more than just a credit card company. We're people just like you who believe in the power of yes. Yes to new opportunities. Yes to second chances. Yes to a fresh start. That's why we've helped over 4 million Canadians get access to a credit card. Because at Capital One, we say yes, so you don't have to hear another no. What will you do with your yes?

Get the yes you've been waiting for at Capital One.ca.ca. slash yes terms and conditions apply it's time for the fantasy points podcast brought to you by fantasy points dot com top level fantasy football and NFL betting analysis from every perspective and angle from numbers to the film room with a single goal to help you score more fantasy points hello everyone and welcome to episode 18 of the take talk podcast I'm stephen o'eric and as always I'm with my co-host Brett Whitefield. And Brett, what a crazy day yesterday. Normally the deadline day is pretty dead.

It usually happens all before the deadline day. But yesterday, the NFL went off. What did you think about it? Yeah, that was an NBA-esque trade deadline. That was fireworks, man. Fireworks. Yeah, it started off slow. It felt like nothing was going to happen.

And then about noon hit and things started really rolling. Yeah, it was pretty wild. I have to say real quick, though, Steve, I think you're a very trusting person. Why do you say that? Because you, we didn't really talk about what episode number it was. You just trust my title for the room, the recording. I do. I do.

I have no idea if it's 18 at this point. Is it 18? I thought Wednesdays were odds or Wednesdays not odds. It probably should be because I saw it and I, like as I was saying, I thought, thought about it and I was like this I was like did we miss it by head as I was saying I'm like did we miss a day I'm like and then because we called 15 with with Joe but the more I thought about that I was like I think we're one off on that too yeah we might be we might be yeah because I thought our 15th was last Wednesday I could be wrong though we might be at the point where I have

to just nix episode yeah the episode number just start rolling unless you're going to go through manually kind of yourself. I'm just saying you probably shouldn't trust me on this is all. All right. That's fair. That's fair. I am a trusting person though. I usually I mean, I lived in like a, you know, suburban town, Grand Rapids, Michigan. I actually, when I was gosh, I was 24, I got my car stolen because my key, I left my keys in my car. And I did that, I did that all the time because I just parked in front of our house. And like, no, nothing ever happened and it's the most privileged thing I could ever say but nothing ever happened there I just left my keys in the car and there yeah one day I woke up time to go to work

look outside look outside and it's gone that's wild I kind of grew up similar like we grew up in a you know like a lower mid-class town and here in the metro Detroit area and we never locked our front door ever oh yeah we didn't we never i don't i never owned a housekey to that house and i lived there till i was 18 yeah it's wild like i literally just come over school or coming from friends or football game whatever and i just walked through the front door like there's no no lock ever the back door was always unlocked it was and we actually did got broken into one day and my parents happened to be out of town oh jeez and i was home alone and thankfully i was i was a pretty big teenager, pretty, you know, scared the peegis out of the intruder, actually,

and successfully chase them off the property. But so pretty crazy. And we didn't, we didn't even start locking it at that point. You learn nothing from the experience. Right. And it's funny now because my wife is like, you know, she's all about, as soon, like, every time we leave the house, it's like, you got to do a perimeter check, you know? That is so funny because that is like the exact same thing with my wife and I were like same thing I grew up where I would come home and there'd just be relatives like sometimes like my aunt would just be in our house and I'm like what's happening my mom's like oh yeah I just told her to walk in like it's fine like that was like we just had we literally had an open door policy where it was like if we were home we just called people like oh yeah you can

just go in grab this like it was a free for all oh my gosh whereas my wife same thing like her family she is like lock the doors there could be an intruder any time of day no matter what the occasion and it's yeah and i'm the complete opposite where i'm like why i don't understand i don't that doesn't really happen so yeah yeah yeah all right cool we got that out of the way you're a trusting person yeah i guess i'm pretty trusting as well i'm just advising you not to to trust my not my title going forward, you know? Right. So, all right, trade deadline.

So that was crazy. What do you, I know you, you kept the good record of everything going on. I'm pretty sure I got everything, but it was crazy. It was hard to follow yesterday, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, so, you know, it kicked off a couple days ago with the Cadarius Tony trade. Oh, yes. With the chiefs getting Cadarius Tony, Giants getting a 20, 23, third, and six. Yeah.

which that's a, you know, that's an upside play. It's a play that, like, a team like the Chiefs, I think, can make. Yeah, I think I like to trade for both parties here. Yeah. So that's kind of what I was thinking. It's a win-win both ways. Yeah. The Giants were clearly ready to move on from Cadarius, right?

I mean, they... Yeah, absolutely. I know he was banged up early in the season as well, but he's just a hard press to find the field anyways. some questions about his um you know some off-field stuff or whatever but i think andy is a a very good coach to deal with that yes he's you know obviously such a vet he's dealt with personalities before and managed them well or whatever so if there is off-field stuff going on i think andy can probably help you know remedy some of that situation and i mean it kind of reminds

you of like a tie-reakil situation almost where like yeah you like coming in there's a lot of chatter about some off-field stuff for him. Well, that actually was, you know. Yeah, and then he got, and then he got to the Chiefs, and you never, like, you never heard from him again, really. You never, like, you never heard about anything like that. It was purely, like, whatever was happening on the field. And it's kind of funny because now that he goes to the Dolphins, you start to see,

you've started to see his name pop up more publicly, like, outside of football a little bit. Like, he was a podcast and things like that. So, like, that's where Andy is. good at that of you know kind of keeping things on like under wraps i would say not that's bad that he has a podcast or anything like that but no but he you know tyriek is like spreading his superstar wings now so yes exactly whereas he wasn't really doing that in k c andy and he usually kind of clips that things for his players and yeah well and also to be clear there's hasn't there's no allegations against tony to the level of hill or anything like that it's just it's mostly chatter you hear about off off

off-field stuff and maybe some of it is not even super serious other than maybe he's not serious about football. I don't really know. Right. Who knows? But the upside play here is huge for the Chiefs. And the fact that they gave up a third tells you that they're pretty confident they can get the ship on the right track there.

Yeah. I mean, that's a decent investment for a guy that was only drafted two years ago and teams already willing to give up on him. So I think that's, this could be huge. for the chiefs though is like there was probably better assets available at the deadline to help you right now right now now totally has a phenomenal skill set and he even looked good as a rookie last year when he's on the field so this also screams to me that maybe they think he's ready to go now and they can get him on the field right now and he helps them right now right because they definitely could have used some help at receiver right now so you would think guys like braynon cooks or even even Claypool is a little bit more established from a, you know, Downs played perspective and production perspective than Tony. So it kind of makes you wonder, you know, how they view Tony.

And I think they're obviously very high on him. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, it's one of those things where I think it comes with that he's also a former first rounder in the hubris of the NFL of like seeing first round talent and thinking that, you know, it was just that team's fault. it's not the player's fault and that's usually how it goes for guys that were highly touted coming in, they usually get a couple more chances because you get enough teams to think that you're not a broken player, you were just on a broken team.

Yeah. And, you know, that we'll see which way it goes with this trade. I think that, again, it's one of those where if he's healthy, he immediately helps the team and he's, you know, probably becomes, gosh, almost their, at least their number two. maybe even their number one right out the gate outside of kelsey as this stage in the season i don't know how big of a role he'll be able to to establish right i mean that yeah that's a good question we're kind of uncharted territory because in the past the the i guess the historical view of trades midseason trades has not been good but there just hasn't been that many of them to really compare to

I think the one that really you could say was successful was Chris Chambers from the Chargers of the Dolphins. Or was it the opposite of that? Maybe Dolphins of the Chargers. I don't remember. I was a kid when that happened. I think that was Dolphins to Chargers. Okay. And yeah, and he performed well.

There's just not, but like we're in non-charted territory. We're seeing a lot more trades now every year at the deadline. This year, even taking it a little further. and there was multiple skill players moved. Like a lot of them, and we're going to, we'll get to all of them. But, you know, starting with McCaffrey, too. And he looked great this this week. So, but yeah, I'm really curious to see how this pans out, man, because I do know this.

We've seen teams try to force Mahomes into this patient waiting game, playing a lot of too high, you know, some cover, some deep cover two shells and cover four and some six. And they've been content to play the waiting game. he's kind of come on. Well, Tony, like, he's so good after the catch. If you're going to commit to two deep safeties and allow him to catch balls underneath and get active in the run-after catch game, that could be a massive weapon for this offense. Something they don't really have.

Hardman is good after the catch, but that's because of blazing speed. Right. Not because he's going to make guys miss. So it's like if you can't get Hardman a crease for whatever reason, then that play is probably dead where Tony has the speed, the quickness, the contact balance. he looks like a running back with the ball in his hands. Right. He's built thick like a running back.

You know, he's, this dude could be a legitimate asset. And don't sell him short on his route running either. He definitely can help with some good route running as well. And you brought up a great point there of, is this, is this the trade deadline where we have to kind of shift our thinking of, like you said, that in previous years, when it came to the NFL, trade deadline. If you were trading a player, it was usually because the clock had kind of run out. Things are moving in the wrong direction. And like you said, it never really pans out to anything. But do we need to shift our thinking to now that the guys that are getting traded at the deadline aren't necessarily declining or players that are getting worse? But are they kind of like these

half season year and a half rentals that you see in like, in like the MLB or the NBA where they're actually making these trades for help that like right here right now in this season rather than them being like we're going to ease them in we think we can get more from this player than what they had done and it's more of like getting traded as kind of like you know a scarlet letter on your badge if you're getting traded at the deadline

yeah I think that transition is definitely happening I think it used to be, well, especially with skill players, right? And I guess some of the context, what I was talking about where it didn't pan out was more from like a fantasy lens. From an NFL lens, I think there's a lot of cases where it's definitely helped. Like OBJ last year certainly helped the Rams win a Super Bowl. Now, he wasn't the most fantasy relevant guy all season. And he did have some big games with Rams. But, yeah, I think the NFL is completely changed now to where you're going to see a lot more one-year run.

you're going to see teams make those final pushes for Super Bowls. You're going to, like that Scarlet Letter type thing. I don't think that's even a thing anymore. Maybe a guy who's really, like, struggled. But Tony's probably as close to that as you can get where it's like, hey, this is a near bust that we're trying to save. Right. On the giant side of this, too, Steve, like speaking of that, like, getting a third and a six

back for a guy you clearly didn't want, seems like. good business. Yeah. I mean, it's about all you can, and it's about all you can get for a guy that has had really one solid game, like really one solid game. That's kind of every, all of his potential, all of his, you know, everybody being excited about him is built off of really one game. Right.

He showed what he can do. And so I just, I just think that, yeah, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's. it's less that he, yeah, he has that first round talent, but you don't have any of the production to back it up. Right. And so, like, to get as much as a third back, you know, it stinks because, you know, if you're looking to flip value, like, we spent this value. You'd ideally like to get that and more back for a player, but.

Well, this regime did not spend the capital there. That was the last. Well, yeah, it wasn't this regime. but like, you know, the team did when with whoever was in place, they spent that, you know, that first rounder. You're just not going to get the value back when he hasn't been on the field. Yep. Agreed.

All right, what's next? We did. I forget, did we talk about the McAvery trade? Yes, we did. Our previous pods. Okay, I thought so. Yeah. But I just.

We relentlessly mocked it, actually. Yeah, he went for, which. for the Triple Crown, first person since 2006, La Damien Tomlinson. Yeah, heck yeah. My man. But next up was bears get 2023 second, a 2023 fifth, and A.J. Klein, and they give the Ravens Roquan Smith.

I know that you have pretty passionate thoughts on Roquant Smith. Well, really, not even, it's just that. you know, partly Roquan Smith and partly just the position of offball linebacker. Yeah. So Roquan Smith is another guy in this recent long line of freak athlete offball linebackers that just can't put it together. This sounds like a hot take. Hear me out really quick.

Let me get to the end of this first. Let's go down the line. Devin White, Tremaine Edmonds, Kenneth Murray, Jordan Brooks. you can even Patrick Queen you can even go back more years than that you can go back to Jared Davis yeah oh Jared Davis is a great one latent Vanderec is a great one although injuries probably sideline him but these guys are all freak athletes that have really suspect college tape at times and you saw that coming out Roquan had some amazing plays of course that's why he was drafted where he was.

But his ability to get himself washed out in the run game is like none I've ever seen. Now, he doesn't play with any discernible amount of physicality. He's not a guy who's going to, you know, go out there and stick his face in a fan and blow up a lead blocker and make a tackle. He thinks he can outrun every blocker. So he runs himself out of gaps all the time. He really is a detriment defending the run. run. Now, the one benefit Roquan Smith has compared to the other list of guys that I named

is that he is pretty decent in coverage. And that's far more valuable to me than defending the run. Yes. So if the Ravens feel like their front is significantly better than the Bears and they're not going to need him to necessarily be a guy that's stout in the run game, which Patrick Queen's not very good either. It probably works for them because I think he will give him. I think he will give you plus value in coverage. Coverage, though, is so hard for linebackers. It's so hard. You're putting an impossible situation all the time.

That's why, like, when I say things like the offball linebacker position isn't valuable, the reason it's not valuable is because it's an impossible position to play. Because you can be really, really, really, really freaking good, and it doesn't move the needle because offenses can still tear you apart. Because let's face the facts, if you're big and strong and slow, you're going to get matched up against, you know, running backs who are faster than you, tight ends who are faster than you, and you're going to get outran on every snap. If you are small, fast, and quick, well, then you're going to get tight ends who are bigger and stronger than you and wide receivers

who are bigger and stronger than you. There's, it's an impossible position to play. So there's very few difference makers in the NFL. I think of like Luke Keekly and his prime. He was so good in coverage. It was like having an extra DB on the field. Right. Bobby Wagner and his prime. Same thing. Fred Warner and San Fran had a couple of years where he was like that. Darius Leonard and Indy had a couple years where he was like that. Ray Lewis, back in the day, same thing.

Brian Erlach are back in that. These guys were excellent in coverage. If you don't have that level of coverage ability, it's just not a super valuable position to me. I need a guy who's going to minimize mistakes versus who's going to make extraordinary plays. I don't care that Rokane Smith can sprint 50 yards really, really fast. He makes so many mistakes. it's not worth it for that one time he's going to hawk a guy coming from the opposite side line. You know what I'm saying?

But the big caveat here is the list of guy, Roquan is the best of that bunch. So I don't think it's a terrible trade. I just wouldn't have done it because now you have to turn around and pay that guy a bunch of money too. And that's the part that's really, this happened with another trade we'll talk about soon too. But like trading good draft capital to then have to pay a guy, like market-ly. leading value. It's just not, you're not getting anything out of that trade, especially when he's a flawed player. Well, and I think that was part of the caveat of Roquan Smith getting traded was that he said he wanted, like he wanted to make sure he went to a team that would pay him. Yeah.

I can see that. And you mentioned it. It's interesting because like you look across the way to where he's going, the Ravens. And like you said, they kind of have someone. who's already very similar to him, and that's Patrick Queen. Yeah. A Queen perhaps looks even more lost than Roquan does, but. And now putting, I mean, putting two athletic linebackers next to each other, it's going to be better than it is going to be worse. But just like how much.

To the position, though. Right. They're still going to get taken advantage of. Right. Oh, I mean, yeah, of course. Like, it's just like how much, if you're like, especially, like, obviously they want to resign him or potentially we think they want to resign him and you know do this long term but if you're thinking about this in the short term i mean how much does

he move the needle on that defense i don't think a ton like that defense has had its issues at times and i don't know if you're like if you're looking at trying to fix those issues i don't know that roquon smith is the one that steps in and fixes it didn't they draft two offball linebackers that class that are freaky else yes they did malique uh malick harrison right yes they did yeah they drafted queen in the first round of malik harrison with another top 100 pick in the same draft class and then two years later you're flipping what was the trade again a second yeah the 2023 second 2023 fifth and then a j klein okay i mean client at this point is more of a special teams player i think think, but. Yeah, I don't think he's, you know.

It's not really anything. Yeah. Other than the Bears probably needed a linebacker to play. Right. I was going to say it was probably just a part of, you know, balancing the roster type thing. Yeah. But yeah, that's, man, that's, that's tough. I love the idea of, like, not, you know, lingering, like, not hanging on to mistakes too long. So I have no problem with them adding a linebacker, but it's like, it's just, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a tough pill to swallow when you literally just spent a top 30 pick on a guy and a top 100 pick on the guy and basically neither of them panned out so you're having to flip, you know, a good amount of assets.

Right. What's the next one? The next one was the one that kicked yesterday off. It was T.J. Hawkinson, a 22nd, excuse me, T.J. Hawkinson, a 2023 fourth, a 24, 24, four conditional fourth to the Vikings and the Lions got back a 2023 second and a 2024 third. So I this one was a very polarizing trade all around it felt like on Twitter. There was. Okay.

I've admittedly been off Twitter. So I don't know any of the takes regarding this trade. So like, I mean, yesterday it was very much like. It seemed 50-50 people who were arguing for it, people who were arguing against it. It was a very mixed bag of feelings. All right, I'll just go there then. So as a Lions fan, I about jumped for joy out of my chair when the news of this came down. I was extraordinarily happy, Steve.

I don't know if you're on the same page as me as a fellow Lions fan. It was surprising at first. and like for a second I was like wait what the hell and then as it kind of said it more I was like I understood it and I think it's the right thing I don't know if I was like ecstatic but like I I like and understand the sense of the trade

I think that it makes sense I think it makes more sense to do it than to have not done it got you okay let me try to take this in a short constructive direction

T.J. Hawkinson had a ton of potential when he was a draft pick. He's a top 10 pick. He looked like a guy who could be a difference maker at tight end. However, he has not been that guy.

The things we saw in college when he played Iowa are not translating to the NFL. Now, there was questions about his explosiveness coming out because he ran a subparth 40, although he did have very explosive jumps or whatever. So we weren't sure how that would look. He doesn't look like a very explosive athlete on the field, though. All those acrobatics he used to do in college in the end zone, you know, making crazy contested catches, we haven't seen that in the NFL. The crazy run after catch, we have not seen. Hockinson is very much a catch and fallout

down guy unless he gets hit absolutely in stride, you know, and there's no one around him. But he's not making guys miss. He's a liability in the run game, not a very good run blocker, not a good pass protector. I think Hawkinson is a very decent player. He knows how to take advantage of his own coverage is pretty well, but he's not a guy who's going to routinely beat man coverage with route-running or route-saviness or even overall athleticism. And that's a problem for me, because here's what would happen if they kept him, Steve. They'd be forced with the terrible decision of, do we pay this guy or not?

And that's what a lot of these trades are going to end up coming down to. Do you, like right off the top of your head, is T.J. Hawkinson worth Mark Andrews' money? Mark Andrews makes $14 million a year. It's so hard. I say maybe it's close, but I guess I lean toward, I don't even know. So you're higher on Hockinson than I am. It's a hard question, in my opinion.

Yeah. I don't think it's even close. I wouldn't even remotely come close to paying him what Andrews gets paid. Yeah. And not only that, like he might get more than Andrews because the way the market develops. It's true because, like, you know, undoubtedly he's, you know, he views himself and I think that some of the NFL views him as. you know like a top five tight end in the NFL fantasy football players do though i feel like NFL people don't but still he's i mean he's gonna go to reset it like that's just the nature of

i agree with that so waller makes 17 million a year Andrews makes 14 million a year there's a couple guys between them i think urts urts's new deal might be right there uh David and joku makes a fraction less than Andrews, like 200K less a year than Andrews, which is insane. So David and Joku, who's not even near as accomplished as Hawkinson even is, and he got Andrews money. Hockinson's probably going to come in over Andrews, which means like, so Travis, are you telling me T.J. Hockinson is worth Travis Kelsey, Mark Andrews, Darren Waller, Dallas Goddard money? No. There's no chance in my mind he's worth that. That's my big. Dawson Knox, Steve.

got $13 million a year. Right. Dawson Knox. Hockinson has double the accomplishments accolades, things like that. Yeah, and I just, so like, no, I'm not, I'm not paying this guy. Like, the lions need to get their cap situation under control. They have an opportunity to recoup some good assets. That's why I balked at that is that if I'm thinking about it from the line standpoint,

I think that it's like, it's a definitive no. Yeah. It's a very definitive no. That that's not the right move, and I would not do that. For different teams, like I probably, there are other teams that I would think about that for Hawkinson. I guess that's where my hesitation came in because I was just thinking of like, what if I was a different team?

But from strictly the line standpoint, absolutely not. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And I have, dude, I have no doubt Hawkinson will go to Minnesota and he'll be a good player. Oh, and it's going to upset. Because I think. I'm going to upset so many people. For sure.

I'm not saying Hockinson's a bust. I'm not saying he's a bad player. I'm not saying he will be bad. I just, he wasn't the type of player I'm willing to reset the market for. When you are a rebuilding team that needs difference makers, and if you're going to pay up at a position, it's for a difference maker.

And he just, he's not that. He's not a huge needle mover. So. Well, and that's where, like, again, if you're a rebuilding team and you're thinking, like, okay, here are like, we, here are the top seven positions that we want to make sure we invest in. Yeah. Long term to have a guy that is, you know, that is at the top of their position.

Like, tight end doesn't fit in those top seven positions that you need. Tight end is a luxury. That's why, that's why if you look at the teams that have a really good tight end, on a lot of them having that tight end is kind of a luxury. Yeah. And even I would say the caveat there is true like needle mover difference maker types, the Kelsey's, the Gronks, the Andrews of the world. But here's the thing about all those guys,

like especially Andrews is a good example of what you're just saying. That was a good team that drafted him. They didn't spend a huge, it wasn't a huge draft capital investment. Right. And then he developed into the guy he is today. And then subsequently earned that contract. I mean, same with Granc. Gronk went to a good team.

I mean, developed. He, yeah, Grunk would have been a top 20 pick had he not had a spinal fusion surgery before the draft. Right, right. But he still was a second-up pick. But, yeah, again, no one knew Gromk was going to be the best tight end volatile time. No, no. He turned into that and, you know, was it. an actual needle mover.

Travis Kelsey, same thing. Like, what was he? A fourth round pick? Something like that. Yeah, and ends up being a whole thing. Even then, like, think about it. That's, like, you named four guys. Like, there's been four guys at that position in the last, you know, 20 years.

If you can go back to, like, Tony Gonzalez and Antonio Gates. Now we're at, you know, six. Like, six guys in the last 20 years. it's just not it's just not a position that you a find them often and be like it's not worth it to pay a guy that like maybe is there because all of those guys had shown it by the time year three like year four had come around by the time second contract around every single one of those guys showed it yep oh kill kill is a guy we haven't mentioned yet for whatever reason just brain fart there but he's obviously another guy when healthy he's capable of being a difference maker so and now i think that t j hawkinson has shown better things after the catch this year and i think that this year with him being healthy consistently he's i think i've seen it you've seen it a little bit more i think it's been inconsistent yeah it's been inconsistent and then you know partially you know it's the team that you know failed for two games and you know before that they were

going off but it was you know a lot of hands in the pot there Yeah. But, you know, still, he never stood out. And in those games where they did, you know, falter, he didn't really stand out. Yeah. I will say this about TJ, too. I'm actually happy for him. He's been with the Lions for four years, well, three and a half.

And going to a team that's six and one. I mean, that's got to feel awesome for him. Like, I'm being, I'm being honest right now. The lines have been such a dumpster fire for so long. Any time you go from a team, like that alone could maybe elevate his game. Just the alleviating that stress of feeling like you have to carry one of the league's worst franchises. And that's why I feel similarly with this as I did the Chiefs Giants trade where I feel like this is a good trade for both teams. I don't think that I don't necessarily think that either team fleece either like anyone.

I think it was pretty fair value from both sides. I mean, it's kind of interesting the Lions threw in picks, but either way, regardless, like, I think that both teams got pretty fair value for the guy they sent over because, like, anybody that's, you know, potentially complaining about, like, you know, lions maybe not getting a higher pick or like feeling that the, you know, the pick value isn't all the way there. Hockinson still, he's like, he's another guy like Roquan Smith where he has to get paid. Yep.

And he's not a superstar in his position. Right, he's not a superstar. And he has to get paid. So it's one of those where there's no guarantee Minnesota keeps him longer than 10 games. There's like, there's not, I mean, you would, you would assume that it would happen. But there's no guarantee that they would do that. and so they have to kind of like they have to hedge themselves in that direction too and that's why you might not get as much as you thought you might get.

But either way, I do like this trade for both teams because I think from Minnesota's standpoint, they've, this year more than previous, but you've seen it the last couple years where them trying to integrate Irv Smith into the offense and it just not working, whether it be because of injury or whatever's happening, like Hawkinson immediately elevates the value of those targets. Like those targets that were going to Irv Smith, the value of those are immediately elevated by dropping in T.J. Hawkinson in there. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting because this is one of those trades where like I loved it for the Lions, from the Lions perspective. I do think Minnesota probably paid, oh, they paid a lot. but it wasn't like an extreme like a first round pick would have been weight like too much but a second and the third it was more than fine so anyways who's next the next one was the bears the bears received chase clay pool and send the Steelers a second round draft pick in place of them yeah this is um this is tough Steve because one good on the Steelers like we knew claypool is going to get traded at some point probably

so good on them for getting they basically got what they gave up that's been talking claypool getting traded has been talked about for like two years so what I misspoke I said they got what they gave up what I meant to say was they got back what they initially invested no, granted they, you know, they spent time developing Claypool or whatever, but it's still, and shoot, that's probably going to be a pretty high pick, actually. Yeah, because the second rounder. Bears sent their second rounder, not the Raven second rounder that's heaved in the trade for Roquan Smith. Yeah, that's a top 50 pick probably. Yeah, that's a much higher value pick.

Yeah. So I like it. I mean, here's the deal. I want to give the bears a little bit of kudos. while also criticizing them, they needed to get playmakers in that offense, period. So they throw a second round pick at Chase Claypool, who is definitely a playmaker.

He's got some downfield ability. He's got some trick play abilities, good on screens. He can hit the jet sweeps. I mean, shoot, he had that four touchdown game as a rookie where one of those touchdowns was a rushing touchdown. The other two of those were bombs. I mean, he definitely has been. big playability and they desperately need that element to their offense.

But going back to every conversation you and I have had on this podcast about team building and about how do you help struggling quarterbacks, specifically guys who struggle with throw for throw accuracy, which Fields doesn't necessarily, he's a pretty accurate thrower. For him, it's getting through his progressions. But the easiest way to help a quarterback, Steve, is to get separators. And you made this point immediately yesterday. I like I like Claypool getting traded, but like it's probably not the

the best fit for him. And I kind of agree. I think it helps the offense, but not as much as somebody else could, like a Jerry Judy could have really helped that offense. Right. And, I mean, there's a potential that Claypool goes, plays with fields, and is way better because, like, he could have been hampered by a combination of Ben Robertsburg, and then the football, Matt Canada system running very just a very elementary route tree like claypool I've not like as far as you know the how deep his route tree goes or how big it goes like it's not that like it's not that much and then now like moving into where he now like Kenny picket has been okay Mitchell Trubisky was not good like he was basically Ben Rathosber Jr.

like he hasn't had anybody good throwing him the football in a long time and that has hampered everyone's production in that Pittsburgh offense but for sure Claypool as well and so there is that that improves when he leaves oh for sure like field is immensely better for him than than what he was dealing with in Pittsburgh all that to be said I still think that I just yeah just don't think that he's like a big separator. Not yet at least. I think that that like that is somewhat like a Brandon Cook's like someone like, you know, someone that you can just trust to get open to be open for fields to fall back on to look

for. You know, someone experienced to understand like scramble drills. Yeah. Like things like that. That's someone that could have, I think, added a little bit more value than, and Claypool, and especially for a second round pick. I just like that, it just feels really steep for a guy. It is a steep price.

It just feels, yeah, it feels very steep for a guy that, you know, outside of that one explosion game, like similar to Cadarius Tony, outside of that, like, one explosion game that he had. Yeah. He's been, you know, he started. He's played. he's gotten a majority of the route share, but he just, you know, he hasn't done much with him. Yeah. He, I mean, he's had moments here and there, Steve, but like, I mean, they even tried to move him to the slot this year with Juju's departure as like a big slot type.

And I think he looks decent there. It's just the quarterback play has been so bad. I really do feel for him. Like, Fields could really, really elevate him. So I don't want to sell it short because I do think Fields could really, really elevate him. I also think Mooney gets a big bump here. Yes, you said this yesterday. And this is the reason I like it. Yeah. If you can put all of the deep, not all of the deep responsibility, but all of those vertical stems, those vertical routes on Claypool's shoulder to say,

hey, you're that guy in this offense now. You're going to own this part of our offense. Mooney's, he's pretty good at that stuff, but he's really good in the intermediate part of the field. because he is a good route runner. He's twitchy. He's quick. I want to see Mooney on some more of those intermediate routes, get him involved in the quick game, short parts of the field.

This could be a big win for Mooney because now, I don't think Claypool is necessarily going to be a guy who's drawn a ton of extra attention. He's not going to get many double looks or brackets or rolling safeties his direction. He might if he establishes himself. but I do think just giving Mooney, you know, more attention in the offense via the intermediate and short passing game, that's going to help him. I really do believe that. So it's a steep price stuff.

I think I made the point to you yesterday. I probably would have just rather have drafted a guy. Like this season's done anyways, right? So just go draft a guy with that second round pick that you just think is awesome. It's going to be a high one. Yeah. And again, we've talked to, we talked about the last episode. It's a pretty good receiver draft coming up.

Another, it's going to, they're going to be good every year because that's the way college football is going right now. It's just the polish that guys are coming in with now. I mean, Claypool has seen a 72% catchable ball rate or percentage this year. Like, that's not good. Yes. It's not good. And so, like, you know, I, I, I, I,

hope that he's able to go and produce because, you know, it's, it's nice because both, like, both these guys need each other so much. Claypool needs, has needed a quarterback that can actually throw the ball. Justin Fields has needed a guy that can actually, you know, give him a little bit more threat. Like, you know, Mooney does it, but nobody else, and nobody else threatens the defense. So, like, you're giving field someone who can potentially do that. So it's a match made in heaven if it works out. It comes down to value and to have moved their own second round pick that could, you know, be anywhere up in the, I mean, it could be pretty, it could be pretty high is a little much for a guy that hasn't shown, hasn't shown it on

the field as much as you'd like for a second rounder. Yep. All right, let's move on. Next one was the dolphins traded for Bradley Chubb in a 2025 fifth rounder, and they sent the Broncos a 2023 first, the 2024 fourth, and Chase Edmonds. Okay, well, that was a lot of stuff. Can you go through each one of those again? So the dolphins received Bradley. Bradley Chub.

A 2025 fifth rounder. Okay. And they sent the Broncos a 2023 first, a 2024 fourth, and Chase Edmonds. Chase Edmonds is probably a throw-in because the Broncos lost Giovante Williams and apparently Melvin Gordon is just Ronald. I don't know what's going on there. How Latavius Murray has come in and usurp that entire backfield. It makes no sense, but it happened, and here we are. And it happened quickly at that.

I mean, he literally came from the Saints practice squad, and then like that week was starting. Melvin Gordon's been there for like three years, so who knows what happened, but kind of, kind of why. Miami, so for Miami, this, they think they're in this to win it. Like their team has played pretty well. This is a... It's all in.

Yeah, exactly. They are going all in for sure. I... First round pick. I don't know. I like Bradley Chubb. Obviously, Russia and the Pantherser is very important, and that's where they need to help on defense.

So I think it's probably fine. I think it's probably fine. If you're Denver and you're looking at possibly rebuilding, plus the emergence of Browning, why are you laughing at me i'm laughing because i'm laughing about the thought of the broncos going into any sort of retool rebuild anything it's just i mean it's hilarious it is funny it is funny absolutely hilarious if they would have traded judy it would have been even funnier because it's like you brought in russell wilson to win right now yeah like if i told you in august that in week eight we would be

talking about the broncos rebuilding you'd be like oh so did russell wilson get hurt forever. Did he die? Is Brett Rippin their starter for the rest of the year? Yeah. That's why I was laughing. Yeah, no, that's...

It is funny. It really is funny. And so they're getting the first back. You got to like that for a team that wants to kind of quickly retool. Plus, Brandon Browning, or Barron, I keep saying Brandon. That was a cornerback. They used to play for Seattle. That was Brandon. Brandon Browner.

Browner. Oh, geez. I'm all over the place. It's like the scene in Dumb and Dumber, you know, where he's trying to remember the homegirls name. Samsonite. I was way off. Yeah. So Baron Browning, his emergence, I know he's hurt right now,

but his emergence probably makes him feel pretty comfortable at Edge moving forward. So they probably felt like getting a one back for Chubb was good to go. And Bradley Chubb's another guy. that is due to be paid. That's a good point, yeah. I think so, right? Another guy that's due to be paid, so. He was drafted, was he the Miles Garrett year?

I think he was. I think he was, Garrett was like the first pick and Chubb was, what, the fifth pick or something? Yeah, four or five. Yeah, he's due to get paid, you're right. Oh, man. Due to get paid. Yeah.

I think this is, is a trade I like for both teams, though. And so, and just the 2023 first that the Dolphins sent over is the 49ers first round. Oh. Because remember the dolphins forfeited theirs for the Stephen Ross, Tom Brady. Oh, that's right. Because they had two first round picks going into this year. They had their own.

That got forfeited with the Stephen Ross, Tom Brady. that whole debacle. So forfeited their own pick, and then they just traded this pick, which was the 49ers first rounder. That could be in the same ballpark as Miami's pick when it's all sudden. Or where Miami's pick would have been. Right.

And so, like, Miami, it's funny. But, like, this, this all, where Miami is right now is all basically goes back to Laramie Tunsell. but oh the chain the chain of picks basically yeah out to where they are to where now they've spent this is our third first rounder they've traded in the last year and a half or so and those picks have resulted in them acquiring jalen wattle them acquiring tyree kill and now bradley chubb wow well i would say that's a pretty good track record so so value wise you know they're they're not just throwing away these first rounders they've gotten great value and got

immediate i mean immediate contributors like jalen waddle elevated the offense right like right away he gave to a a reliable receiver like without jailan waddle that offense would have been pitiful last year yeah then you get tyree kill which who who has come in and elevated that offense big time to where now they're i mean like and this is it's partly because of the lions, but it's also partly because of what the, what the dolphins are. But when the lions went up 21 to 7 on Sunday, I mean, I, I knew that the dolphins were coming back.

And it was partly because the Detroit defense has been pitiful this year, but also because I just like, Miami is so good. Yeah. Like they are terrifying. Their offense is horrifying. They're so fast. There's, I would say there's two secondaries that I would say that have a chance at containing. Buffalo and who?

Philly? Philly? Okay. Yeah. Like those two maybe. And even then, I'm not trusting any, like, this team's terrifying. They're so fast. Yeah.

Yeah. We're going to have a good combo about Tua as well when we're done with the trade deadline talk so I don't want to spoil too much of that right now. Actually, let's not. Let's not spoil any of it. But long story short, I do think Miami's in the driver's seat to be very good this year. Acquiring a top end pat. Bradley Chubb is not elite, but he's very good.

I think he changes this defense. I think he changes the nature of what this defense is. Yeah. I think that he bringing him in, pairing him up with an improved, Melvin Ingram, who's playing out there too for Miami. I think bringing Bradley Chubbin allows the Miami defense to blitz like 10% less. I just literally took the words out of my mouth. Like I think what are we always preaching, Steve?

Is that if you can drop seven and rush four, you pass rush, like that's how you dominate. And I think he has, I think Miami has decent linebackers. I think they have some decent linebackers that don't really get noticed and they play like Miami plays at that mugged up double a gap. You know, linebackers in the double a gap defense like all the time. And so I mean, those linebackers basically get washed out a ton. And so I'm like, I'm just, I think that I think that it's much about the player, but it's also what this player brings to the entirety of the defense is worth what they're giving up

because I think that he does allow you to play just a little bit less chaotic defense. Like if you think about it, they are a huge boom and bust defense. Like they can have some games where they get nine sacks and they are just are terrorizing the other teams off the line and they look unstoppable. and then they also can have games like last Sunday or against the events where they get where every time the other team touches the ball, they're tearing this defense apart because they're just throwing crossing routes because the linebackers can't get back to the middle in time. You know, because they're playing double A gap and all of that, all of that goes away because you can play a little bit more of a natural front. I mean, just this past week against the lines, that first half, the defense looked terrible. And then they tightened it up, obviously.

But yeah, man, like their ability to drop seven in coverage more often they're doing now makes this trade more super valuable, right? Because, like, they have good manned corners. They really do. They have a good secondary, but the secondary has been torched because of scheme mostly. Just like, they kind of sit back there on an island.

Yeah, absolutely. And listen, like, the ability to dial up a good blitz that's steamed well and timed well, that's valuable. I would just, I'd prefer to not have to do it as often as they're doing it. They're blitzing at what the fifth or sixth highest rate. And I think that's even come down since early in the year because they've made some adjustments. But man, like, Bradley Chubb does definitely change the way they're going to be forced to play. And when you're playing guys like Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen in the playoffs, you do not want to be rushing five, six, seven guys at them.

you know you want to be able to drop back and and play some coverage so big win there how many more trades do we have uh go ahead we have we have a few i'd say we have like three more that have like actual talking about value and one of them maybe okay just it's notable um this one's just what i want to i mean i want to mention just because it is it's kind of funny 49ers get a fifth rounder for Jeff Wilson who went to the Dolphins. Mike McDaniels just copy and pasted his backfield from San Fran and just moved him. I love it. Brought him to the Dolphins.

I was correct on this. I was just three months late. I thought Miami would have ended up with Wilson three months ago. In our chat, me, you and Chris, we do have a quote from you. and lie saying it's okay because once Jeff Wilson gets cut he'll go to Miami or something along the lines of that. Yeah. So pretty funny that you were able to, that you called that one. But like, I mean, this one's, you know, it's okay.

But I think that this opens the door really more so that like the 49ers are going all in with DB. McCaffrey type attack, I think. Yeah. And Eli Mitchell's probably close to coming back, too. Oh, that's a good point, too. Yeah. Wilson was a UDFA for them. He's been good for them for like four years,

despite not having any type of pedigree. Never starts the season high on the death start, always has to play because injuries. It always does really well, which just shows you how good the scheme is, right? Always the brides made, never the bride. Exactly. but I do like to fit Miami.

This gives them another back. Because, you know, Moser hasn't been the most durable guy either. So this gives them another back that fits the scheme really, really well. Wilson has been pretty durable at that. And I think that he's, I think that he's an improvement over Chase Edmonds. I think that.

For the scheme, yeah, for sure. They increased value there as far as, like, who you shipped out over to the Broncos and who you got back. Like Jeff Wilson. you know, is it like elevate your team a little bit more than what Chase Edmonds did. Yep. But that's,

you know, that's enough on that. The interesting one from yesterday that I think that really no one saw coming was Calvin Ridley to the Jaguars. Or what is a very, very conditional pick to the Falcons that starts at a fifth rounder. I think can get anywhere up to a second rounder. Wow.

Second rounder being if Calvin Ridley gets re-signed by the Jaguars, which is an interesting condition that I don't know we've ever really seen before. But it's basically like it starts to the fifth. It goes to a fourth on, you know, if he plays next year because he's up for getting himself reinstated in February. I think it goes up to a fourth if he plays next year. It goes up to a third if he plays all of next year. Gets all the way up to a second if the Jaguars re-sign him to a new contract. Okay.

Interesting. What if the new contract's one year, $1 million? Do they still get a second round pick? I did not read into all of those conditions. Okay. How deep it goes, but I think it's like he has to get extended, extended. Gotcha. It can't be.

You know, I assume there has to be conditions around like even if he stinks, you're not just going to throw him, you know, throw away to give up a third instead of a second. But I think that like, I think it's an interesting trade. I think that there's so much unknown with Calvin Ridley right now because at this point, you know, by the time he comes back next year, he will have been out for almost two years. Yeah. but if he is what he was that gives um that gives uh Trevor Lawrence a number one true number one receiver for sure I don't mind the risk on the Jaguars part we knew Atlanta was probably going to move on from Ridley anyways so yeah we did we just he was probably a cut candidate to be quite honest probably honestly yeah but yeah that's I don't mind the risk so I have

I like it. Yeah. Well, we got, I mean, it might amount to nothing if Ridley, I mean, does he even want to play football again, you know? I mean, I think he does. He just got, he just got a really, I think just a really, really crappy shake of like what he did was wrong, but like. It wasn't even really wrong. It was wrong via the rules, but it wasn't wrong. I'm going to be the rules, but like, it is funny because the Jaguars Falcons,

that was actually the game that Calvin Ridley bet on the Jaguars to win. Wait, what's it really? He bet for the Jaguars to beat the Falcons. Wait, really? No, sorry, other way around. He was on the Falcons. He bet for the Falcons to beat the Jaguars. That was the bet that got him, like, nixed, and then now he's traded to the Jaguars from the Falcons.

Wow. Yeah. It almost seems like villainous by the Atlanta staff, right? Like, you want to bet? Well, you know, in a Jaguars game, we'll send you to Jacksonville. Yeah, I don't think that there's, I don't think that there's any doubt about whether he wants to play. I mean, he was injured the year before. No, he walked away from the game.

Oh, that's right. He did. Yeah. I forgot about that. That's what I'm saying. He's like, he walked away from the game. He was intending to come back this year from what we've heard. But now with another year off, like,

I'm not claiming to know either way. He walked away for like a super, super, like, crappy situation. Like, he was involved in a whole, like, racketeering embezzlement thing with like a bunch of other, yeah, so this came out earlier this year. He was involved in like a super big embezzling thing that got a couple celebrities in there as well. Oh, my gosh. group ended up getting RICO charges. But he was getting stolen from. It was a whole thing.

And so like it was like really like I think they had like they kind of had him held hostage. And like it was a really bad situation. So like I truly. Yeah, now that now I remember. But like I truly don't think that it was ever a question of like if he loves the game. I think that that was originally originally what came out. But now I think that since what has actually happened come out, I think that I don't question that as much because from the situation that was kind of laid out in that,

it was a really bad situation for him. And, you know, it sounded kind of pretty terrifying and honestly pretty terrible that he got caught up in that. Wow. Well, cool. Good trade then for the Jags. Hopefully that works out. Trevor needs to help. He needs a number one.

I mean, Christian Kirk opened up. but like kirk's not a true number one right um ridley can be that he can be a true outside number one and that would immediately open up the open up the field for kirk um evan ingram has been has played pretty well like i think that's i think that calvin ridley bringing him out of that offense kind of completes that offense in a way that like makes them you know at least pretty exciting or you know gives them a chance because i mean Trevor lawrence has led them to quite a few he's led them to quite a few scores that could win a game if their defense got to stop on the other end. Yep.

Like, as much as he's missed out at the end of games, he also has done it at the end of games. It's just his defense hasn't. Oh, I can think of one game, right, against the Colts where that happened. And then it happened, I mean, it happened last week, too, didn't that? Or no. No, he failed at the end of the game. He threw the untimely pick right at the end. Either way, I think that, like, Calvin Ridley kind of.

would complete this offense and you would feel outside of like you know improving the offensive line which hasn't been playing bad this year i think that um kirk kirk ridley and zay jones is a pretty decent trio actually yeah you feel confident about what that gives your along with etn like what that gives your uh quarterback so like you said i think that's a good just a good play for a player that was done pretty much done with the team he was on Yep. And then the last one that was worth talking about, the bill is getting Iheem Hines,

and they send the Colts, Zach Moss, and a 2023 fifth round. Running back for running back. Let's go. Which, like, doesn't make sense because Zach Moss is, like, I guess it's the fifth rounder that makes it up, but I don't know.

Yeah. I feel like the Colts. For the Colts, man, they're getting the fifth rounder, and they, like, Dion Jackson has established himself as a good pass down back. Right. So, like, they don't necessarily need Nehim Hines anymore.

He makes good money for a backup running back. So why not trade him? The bill's obviously been looking for a pass catcher type. They were linked to, you know, CMC. They were kind of loosely linked to Camara at one point. To Kareem Hunt. Loosely linked to Kareem Hunt. All of guys very good in the past game.

Heinz is a weapon in the past game. I'll for sure give him that. I don't know that. And I think he works in, like, we kind of, I feel like we've seen in the last couple weeks, and we even saw it this week against Green Bay is James Cook being used in five wide set, in empty sets. And James Cook being utilized in the past game more,

I think that they think that Nihim Hines can step into that role and be just a little bit better than what. James Cook is or has been. Yeah. Yep. I agree. And yeah, that there were a couple other small ones. Falcon sent DiMarlo to the Bills for a 2023-7.

Chief sent Rashad Fenton to the Falcons for a conditional seventh. And the Jets sent Jacob Martin in a 2024-fifth to the Broncos for a 2024-fourth. yeah those are just minor moves minor moves special teams guy rachad fent potential guy that could step in and play for the falcons yeah the marlow one's interesting actually because he played his best football in buffalo and everyone in buffalo was shocked when they didn't resign him and he actually signed up the lions yeah bills have had some health issues on the back end with um high and uh poyer but yeah he's He's very good in that system, and he's a good special teams player. So that's actually a low-key, savvy move for them, kind of just securing the foundation there.

And I do, and I do like the Fenton trade for the Falcons, I think. Like, the Falcons get a player that started for the chiefs for a bit and has started potential. He's had a little bit of an up-and-down career, but has started a starter potential. He's at least a rosterable corner. Yeah, and the chiefs get. a little something back for a team that has had a couple of rookies emerge and like other other established corners who kind of emerged and cemented themselves on that defense over rachad fetton yep and yeah all right that wraps that wraps up the trade deadline madness oh i hope that that's the

trend going forward from now on because there was like there's always there's always something awesome about the NBA trade deadline because it was like anything can happen and that's how yesterday felt so I hope like I love when that happens with the NFL because I just like it feels like the stakes are a little bit higher when names household names get moved yeah I feel like we've been ramping up to this right it's all been building to be where this is the norm now absolutely yeah I mean there was we'll see like last year what vault Vaughn got traded at the deadline. Melvin Ingram got traded at the deadline.

Erds got traded at the deadline last year. Gilmore. Yep. Jakeem Grant. Not that really means anything, but. Those are, a lot of those were pre-deadline day. Were those all deadline day trades? Well, Vaughn Miller was literally right at the deadline, I believe.

The day before the deadline. So the Monday before the deadline. Yes. Melvin Ingham was deadline day. Ertz was deadline day. So. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,

but yeah. I feel like we've been ramping up to this for sure. The last few years have been getting busier and busier. And I think now this is just where the NFL is at. And it's like I think we've talked about it before, but just everybody realizing that like, there's just the mindset of when you can move off of a player has changed so much in the last five years. The teams are not, not that they're necessarily not valuing a player highly anymore. It's that they understand a lot, like a lot more GMs and coaches understand when to let go and when it's time to, you know, potentially restart or when it's time to, you know, begin looking at a retool, rebuild or, you know, things like that.

Like that's just happening way more often. So often you, like, NFL teams held under their draft picks. like crazy. Yeah. And I guess it's honestly, it's not even the player value. It's more so that. It's that teams were holding out of their draft picks like crazy. They would not let them go.

But now teams and a lot more like contending teams, understanding that a player in the hand, a player in the hand, a contributor on your team tomorrow, is more valuable to you this year and potentially next year than a guy that is, potential. You don't even know who it is.

It's just a potential of something. Like that, recruiting players more helpful than that for a contending team. And then, like, on the flip side, it's teams that are ready to move on or ready to rebuild. Like, they're starting to get draft capital back. Yep. The NFL is evolving, which is good.

Yeah, some of the old world thinking is not. there as much anymore, which is good. All right, Steve, before we wrap this up, I did want to have a short QB conversation with you. You want to get, you want to dig in and talk about Tua. A little bit, a little bit. Let me just ask you this off the gate. Okay.

Are you buying or selling Tua as a top five QB in the NFL this year, this year? Top five. As if he's played at a top five level. Um, no, I mean, I don't think so. No. Okay. Uh, well, I mean, I would like to say I'm shocked to hear you say that, but I'm not. Um, I, because I, I think you're a pretty smart guy.

Maybe that's my own, like, prejudices against him of like what I previously thought, what I kind of continue to think. Yeah. And just how much I don't, like, I don't. like I don't really attribute a ton of what he's done to him. That's the thing. That's fair. That's fair. Like that's my biggest thing is that like when I think about top performing quarterbacks,

I guess I'm more, I think of quarterbacks making it happen. Obviously, like receivers help make it happen. But like just more so of the throws and plays that got guys open or. or put better position or you know 100% you know and Tua's done like the leading you know game winning drives game taking over drives like that's happened but I guess it's just like again I just don't whenever I watch Miami I don't come away from it

thinking like Tua was the reason that they Tua wasn't the reason that they were in a position to win that game I don't like that's not my idea That's why, like, if I were thinking, like, I think he's close as far as this year. I think he's, because he's nearing top five, but I can't put him in the top five because I just don't, I just don't think that it's been, like, and this is purely an eye test thing. Like, we could get into the numbers and, like, talk about what he's done, but, like, purely I test. I don't come away from watching a game from a game of him play.

thinking like that's a top five guy this year okay so what here's the deal as you know when whether you're charting something for analytical purposes or like whether you know we chart wow throws we chart turn over really throws stuff like that performance based metrics yeah the key of you're always looking for is if they're doing something over what's expected right right so even even just Separate it from analytics. Even when you're doing evaluations, college players or evaluating a player's performance, just from a scouting perspective,

you're looking at what they do beyond what's asked of them necessarily. What, you know, was this an expected play or was it more than an expected play? Right, right. From that perspective, Tua isn't necessarily moving the needle very far. Right.

He's just not. He is given a ton of layups. here's the thing though, Steve. I'm going to backtrack a little bit because I've been critical of Tua a little bit. I've been accused of crushing Tua. I've never crushed Tua on this podcast. I think he has a bunch of physical limitations that will limit him for his entire career. I'm not shy about saying that, but I think he's played really, really, really well this year.

And compared to the league. And that's, yeah, like that. I think I might put him in the top five this year. I can't, I don't know that I can name five QBs who have. been better than him this year. And that's what I want to clarify. Like, this is not me saying that I think that Tua has played poorly because he hasn't. Like when he's been healthy, they've won games and he's produced and played pretty well. I don't think they've lost when he's played the whole game, right? They haven't. Yeah. But yeah, I can't think of five QBs that have played better than him.

And so a lot of it, he just, he gets a ton of layups, but he doesn't miss. the layups. Or I should say he doesn't miss them badly. Exactly. I do think it's interesting, though, because, like, people don't realize how easy his life has been this year. Offensive line issues aside, which can be a thing. But Tua's got a good clock.

He throws fast, especially short and intermediate stuff. He throws with good timing and anticipation. The offense moves fast, too. It's also an understanding. of Mike McDaniel, who he knows that, okay, I don't, you know, nine times out of 10, I don't have three seconds for Tua to sit back there. Right. So he, like, the offense has worked to get the ball out fast.

And they, you know, they put the defense in conflict. They do, you know, some RPO work, things like that. Like, yeah. They mitigate their offensive line issues so well. They do. They use quick game a ton. almost 14% of his attempts have come on quick game. Now, Steve, for this conversation, I went back and I watched every single to a throw

between last night and this morning just to make sure I was dotting my eyes and crossing my teeth. But almost 14% of his attempts are quick game. He has one completion downfield where a receiver had less than a step of separation. He has the best receiving do in the NFL, by the way. Tyree Kill and Jalenbottle. They are running wide open. Every vertical throw he's attempted this year, except for one, Steve, has been underthrown. So these are these plays we're talking about where you need a little bit more than what's expected to maximize the play.

Right. He's not doing that downfield. And that's the limitation I'm talking about physically. Right. Every single vertical throw, Steve, has been underthrown except for. for one. And that was the Jalen Waddle, uh,

kind of like the slot wheel route that he had against the lines this past week. Yeah. To put that on the money. It was the only vertical route. He has it underthrown all year. And how open was Waddle. He was, I mean,

he had four yards of separation. That was like a 30. I mean, it was like a 32, 35 yard throw. Yeah, it wasn't a, he wasn't a bomb by any means, but it was a good,

it was a good, it was a good deep throw. I was right on the money. But again, it wasn't like. Yeah. And like, and like,

and that's all, I mean, also there's never there's never really like a huge amount of these like uh massive area yard throws that are always completed yeah but like tua can't even get it to the area like to like the point no needs to be that's the thing is that tight rick hill is so freaking good he bales to it out of so many poor throws downfield and that's like without t ike his interception numbers would be insane this year that you yeah and that's the thing is that's why like that's why it's hard for me to come away from watching

him thinking that like he's been like a top five QB and like like maybe that's not fair to penalize him for the guys he has on his team yeah i don't know it's that's the thing a lot of like you watch a lot of his throws and you're like you just think like that play was made by Tyreek. Like they have two freak receivers in Waddell and Tyreek. And Gisicki's a little bit of a freak too just because of how big his catch radius is. Well, he's insanely athletic.

Yeah, like his catch radius is insane. And so, like, that's, he's as much of a help to Tua as those other guys because there are, like, there are some throws that Gisiki just like snatches out in front of him or snatches up a buck and pulls in that like a lot of other guys couldn't. here's the thing about Tua. He just doesn't make a ton of mistakes. Sands the downfield stuff that he under throws. But he's at the point now where he has so much trust for Waddle and Hill,

he doesn't even care. He's just Yolo Dolo. Yeah, right. And let the chips fall where they may. But in that short part of the field, the intermediate part of the field, Steve, he doesn't miss throws. He actually has the second best off-target throw rate in the NFL. He's not missing throws badly.

He's throwing catchable ball. he's getting he's getting through his forget well granted he's not asked to to progress a lot although in the red zone i've noticed he has been really good at getting through progressions where coverage is a little tighter but for the most part he's throwing to wide open receivers yeah and then like you get to his numbers and he has a 70% his completion percentage is 70% yeah but he's middle of the pack in top accuracy rating yeah and he's like adjusted completion percentage is not you know his adjusted completion percentage is only 78 so it just shows that like his completion percentage is super high but it's like passes that he should complete

yeah and they do such a good job of scheme there it's i mean his a dot is nine nine point two that's i mean it's pretty solid yeah i mean we've talked about it on podcast pass but the way they use scheme like the quick game is very prevalent. He's got a ton of completions on quick game compared to the league. They utilize some RPO. They got a good screen game. All these are easy throws for him to make where he's not, there's no read, right? I mean, there's a pre-snap read, but there's no read where he's not getting through a passing progression.

There's no progressing of like, okay, where's the coverage who dropped? Yeah, he's reading one guy, reading one guy and then making a throw. Or the screen. It's just a screen. He's usually keying like the flat defender, like whoever the, whoever the flat defender, whether it be a corner, a linebacker, a defensive end, whoever that flat defender is, especially in like those quick pass games, like the quick slant games is where, you know, they'll, he's fake,

he's faking to the running back. If that defensive end crashes down and clears that, like, flat, hook-to-curl area, then the throw is happening. if that linebacker sits in that hole, that he hands it off. Like that's all the read is. It's not, you know,

it's nothing crazy. He's not, he's not really identifying coverage. He's not really, he is, but it's just, you know, to find out who his read guy is.

He's not identifying coverage. He's not, you know, doing full field reads, things like that. Yeah, I mean, he is on some plays for sure,

but like they're, they're mixing it up a lot where they're using a ton of, ton of quick game, ton of RPO. They're mixing in screens. They got a, good amount of play action, but over 80% of his throws, Steve, have been to receivers that we would

either call open or underneath coverage. Over 80%. That's crazy. That is insanity, dude. That's why, that's why, like, his adjusted completion percentage is not super high. Like, the differential between his adjusted completion percentage and his completion percentage are not, like, is not super big compared to, like, some other guys who have higher adjusted completion percentages is because so many of it. So many of it. his throws are expected completions. Yep. Yep.

And that is, yeah, I mean, dude, he sits just middle of the pack and high accuracy rating, despite over 80% of his throws being to open receivers, basically. Yeah. Which is wild. So, you know what? Another thing, too, his turnover worthy throw to wow throw rate isn't good. It's not, I shouldn't say it's not great. It's decent.

it's decent he's in the he's in the correct quadrant that you want to be in if you put it all on a chart he's one to one yeah yeah he's basically he's basically one to one um but in that number could definitely that number is definitely limbo because some of those like just this week against detroit he had three bombs that he severely under through by the way the one to tyreek the jump ball right in the middle of the field that was sad dude because he he literally ran up the light of scrimmage and put everything he had to bet throw and it was still 15 yards short. That one should be like, if you go back

and watch that one, I think that's the one. Maybe it's not the one, but there was one that like, for sure it was, it's Kirby Joseph, a rookie who took a horrible angle. Like it should have been picked off with Kirby Joseph's length. He should have been able to undercut it, but like he took a weird angle behind

Tyreek and then tried to adjust and he was way too late to But there were a couple where like you said, they were kind of like lollipops to Tyreek. And he made a great play. And it was like more so, it was more so a lack of a play from the Detroit defender than it was throw or a catch by Tyreek. Like there were at least two that I was like if that way, if that's a better safety or a more mature safety, like that play gets either blown up or pick. And this is just what Tyreek or Jalen Waddle does for you. They open up so much because they stress the defense, dude. Like we've talked about it in nauseam on other podcasts,

but the Yankee and the dagger concepts they run, they just open up the entirety of the middle of the field. It's impossible to defend with that speed. And like all of that to say that like for Tua, who cares what anyone thinks? Like that's, I mean, the offense that he's playing, in, even if he isn't like, you know, standing out in like a Mahomes or like a Josh Allen level play.

Right. Maybe he's not, but like he's playing in like a dream offense where he doesn't have to be perfect. He doesn't have to put every single football in the perfect position for his receivers to make plays. He gets separation. He's getting like, I mean, like his receivers between Waddle and Tyree Kill, they're getting like separation to the.

the level of like college receivers that you see in college offenses where like huge knock is when you get to the NFL you don't get to throw it through windows like you did in college. The windows get smaller. Not too. With Tyree Kill and Jalen Waddle, those those, his like his throwing windows have gotten bigger from the time he got to the NFL to now. So like who cares what anyone thinks? Like he's in the dream offense where when he's,

on the weapons goes. They've done a tremendous job of building this to suit his skill set. Right. When he's off, it still goes because Tyree Kill and Jalen Waddell are supreme athletes. And it just a matter, like they'll find a way to get the ball in their hands. Yeah.

And so like that's where like I honestly, like after watching yesterday's game and now that like, or not yesterday, Sunday's game against the Lions. and after kind of like now that we've got like a six game five and a half game sample size with two up like Miami in my opinion is scary to the level that like the 2018 2019 chiefs were yeah I can see that no lead is safe there's like there's no lead that's safe even if you get out to a hot start on offense like your offense is going to have to keep the pace up because it's one of those who are like you can just bank on bank on them scoring 28 points and just focus on scoring more than 28 points because like the only way you're going to beat them

because if this offense is completely healthy they just like I mean they're receiving weapons they who cares how good their run game is most start solid and they're get obviously they're getting Jeff Wilson so like their run game is it'll probably improve a little bit but I mean even then like their quick game is an extension of the run game because of the separation waddell and Tyree kill can get in the yards after catch that those guys can get. For sure.

They are definitely scary. I do want to see Tua get a little better throwing with timing and anticipation downfield. I know he's not going to ever have the arm strength. You can accommodate, though, with timing and anticipation like Drew Brees used to. Breeze used to. Breeze through a beautiful deep ball. Now, when Tua spins it, it looks nice. I'm not going to.

Similar with like Matt Ryan last year. And of, what Matt. Don't do that, the Tua. Come on. Well, no,

Matt Ryan, last year, Matt Ryan was a pretty good deep ball thrower. It would, they weren't super deep, but like he was accurate. Like, I think he was one of the most accurate deep ball throwers last year.

On actual vertical routes or just throws 20 yards downfield or more. I'll verify. Keep going. yeah i just i mean it's not that important yeah i it's not but yeah i i want to could two it throws the end breakers just fine like those deep ends like on dagger the deep crossers on yankee

that are 20 plus he throws those just fine you don't need you know all the arm strength in the world to hit those and he's hitting those just perfectly so i i'm not worried about that i'm more worried about those vertical stems like if you really want to maximize waddle and hill you got to throw the vertical stems better than he's throwing them I think eventually it catches up to him is all I'm saying like I he's had a pretty remarkable streak of Tyreek bailing him out of some crap like Tyreeks a tremendous player but at some point it's not going to work at some point you're not playing the lions or the Ravens busted coverages or whatever so is it not going to work because like it has so far I'm yeah I understand I just think it's good those types of throws will catch up to him at some point. point that's all i'm saying i mean i yes i think against again i think against a team like buffalo which i mean they beat buffalo but that was that was more so at the hands of their defense making

big time plays to turn the to turn the ball over from buffalo two didn't even really play in that game not really and so like i don't know like in in when he did play he was when he was playing before his injury he was playing saying they'll kind of a little bit subpar but Yeah, I don't know. I like against, I think better safeties, you would like to see on those jump ball type. Like they're the ones where Tyreek gets behind you, it's like you kind of just have to hope pray and hope you don't interfere with him and things like that. But like on the jump ball type ones in the middle of the field that I feel like two throws like two or three times a game, a good safety needs to be there to make that play. Yes.

the actual fun fun fact well I didn't actually verify this so maybe I shouldn't say it well somebody told me now I have to verify myself so if I'm wrong I'll apologize later but someone told me that the time to throw on that Tyreek

ball was shorter than the time it took for the ball to get the Tyreek which is really funny that's kind of crazy yeah all right we got to wrap this up really quick though Steve before we go I want to know who are your top five QVs so far this year and we don't need a discussion about them I just want to know who are your top five

it's funny hold on let me pull up I mean right no all right now my top five are jalen hurts gino smith Josh Allen Patrick Mahomes and I'd probably say Lamar jackson woo okay but that's it yeah we have the We have the same top five, except I have Tua in my top five. That's the thing where, like, I look at it, and I'm like, gosh, Tua is right there. And Justin Herbert in games where Joe Lombardi allows his A-DOT to be over 1.2. Okay, well, then he's dead to me, because that doesn't happen enough. Just, I actually know, I can't, because I'll go on a Chargers rant again.

I can't do that. We've done it. We've done it. It's just so frustrating. It truly is frustrating. But wrapping. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I have the same top five as you.

I just have two o instead of Lamar, but I get it. So, yeah. Well, thanks. This is a good pod. Trade deadline was crazy. I hope we see more of that. Steve, on Friday, I don't have a guest lined up for us yet, but we'll get one. All right.

Have faith. Have faith. I believe. Thanks to all the listeners so much for listening. We will be back Friday. Hopefully with a guest, if not, you know, we'll just bring Chris on. Yeah, we get into Chris. So there will be a guess.

We'll figure it out. But anyways, thanks so much for listening. I'm your host, Brett Whitefield. My host, Stephen Rourke, and we are out. Thanks for tuning in to this edition of the Fantasy Points podcast. Remember to subscribe, rate Edward. view on your favorite platform and come join the roster at fantasy points.com.