Fantasy Football Daily - Champs and Chumps of the Week + Building the PERFECT QB | NFL First Read

Episode Date: December 31, 2024

Welcome to First Read, your go-to podcast for the latest in NFL analysis and insights. Join hosts Brett Whitefield and Joe Marino as they break down "Champs and Chumps of the Week + Building the PERFECT QB." Whether you're a fantasy football enthusiast, a die-hard fan, or just looking to stay informed on all things NFL, "First Read" has you covered. Tune in for expert opinions, detailed breakdowns, and engaging discussions every week. Don't miss out on the ultimate NFL podcast experience! Where to find us: http://twitter.com/BGWhitefield http://twitter.com/TheJoeMarino Find Our Podcasts Here - https://www.fantasypoints.com/media/podcasts#/ Use promo code - SCOREMORE for 10% off of your subscriptions Subscribe to FantasyPoints for FREE - https://www.fantasypoints.com/plans#/ Check out The Waiver Wire - https://www.fantasypoints.com/nfl/articles/2024/the-waiver-wire-week-5#/ FantasyPoints Website - https://www.fantasypoints.com NEW! Data Suite - https://data.fantasypoints.com Twitter - https://twitter.com/FantasyPts Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/FantasyPts Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/FantasyPts TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@fantasypts #fantasypoints #nfl #fantasyfootball #dynastyfantasyfootball #FantasyFootballAdvice #dynastypoints #dynasty Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

First read. We are your first read the film of analytics podcast featuring Joe Marino of lockdown and myself, Brett Whitefield, the C.OO of Fantasy Points. This podcast is powered by the Fantasy Points Data Suite. Let's get after it. Happy New Year, Joe. The Lions have defeated the San Francisco 49ers on Monday night football and we are recording this. It almost was like minutes after because I barely slept last. night. Adrenaline was pumping. But yeah, we're excited this morning. How are you, Joe? I'm good, man. Happy New Year to you. Was the adrenaline pumping? I mean, it was a game that I mean, the Lions won it, but it was kind of inconsequential, right? I mean, no matter what happened in that game, they were still playing Minnesota for all the marbles in week 18. By winning that game, they now have two outs. If they would have lost that game, they would have one out. So I think analytically there's about a 2% difference by them winning that game.

Well, also you want to win, right? You play to win the game. Herman Edwards told me that. You play to win the game. But yeah, if they if they didn't win and then tied Minnesota next week, they would not be the one seed. Oh, very good. You got to protect that opportunity. The lines care very much about analytics. And I think, imagine if they would have tied next week, but they lost last night because they rest some starters. You know, Dan looks like like an idiot. So we're not we're not doing that. But also it was a revenge game. It completes the revenge tour, you know.

They have exercised all the payments. I don't know about that. I seem to remember one loss that they didn't avenge. I remember 2022 Thanksgiving. Oh, yeah. You know, maybe they'll get another shot to avenge that more of me. That was a great loss to take, honestly, though, right? I mean, yeah.

If you're going to lose a game, lose to a non-conference team, right? Oh, absolutely. In fact, this brings up a great thing. We haven't done this in a while, probably because the bill's loss and then all the injuries just took some of the wind out of the sail. But the lines have continued their historic season last night. And I think we have four new records to talk about here. Oh, wow. Okay. We have a couple franchise records, first and foremost. Oh, okay. Want to go back and forth? I've got some for the bills we can do as well. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. All right. 14 win season for the first time in Lions history.

8 and 0 on the road for the first time in Lions history. They are the first team in NFL history to have four skill players reach 1,000 yards, two running backs and two wide receivers. They are the first team in NFL history to score 40 points a game and have zero turnovers in five games in one season. Wow. Josh Allen became the first player in NFL history with five straight 40 plus touchdown seasons. The bills went undefeated at home for the first time since 1990 and just the third time ever set new franchise record for touchdowns and points in a season.

They set the NFL record for most players, most different players with the receiving touchdown in the single season with 13. Nice. Pretty cool stuff, right? Yeah, that is cool stuff. The Super Bowl has already been made, Bill's lines. I mean, honestly, we're just wasting our time for the month of January playing these games. Let's just get to it. Nobody needs to get injured.

You know, we don't need a Drake. green loss situation. Just put these teams into Orleans and let's see what happens, you know? Let's go. All right, champs and chumps, Joe. I know you have a robust catalog. I had one very clear guy for each, each spot here.

So why don't you start us off since we've got a lot of dialogue with you? All right. Do you want champs first or do you want chumps first? I want, I want champs. Okay. I got three champs this week. Champ, I don't know. Number one will be the first one I talk about.

I want to shout out Shaw McVeigh and the Los Angeles Rams. NFC West champions. And they started this season rough, right? They were one and four to start the season. And we had this journey with the NFC West, right? And it was like every team had their moment. Seattle had their moment. Arizona had their moment.

Of course, San Francisco is the reigning NFC champions. They were the kind of the team coming in. No, but it's the Rams. It's the Rams minus Aaron Donald with all the young players defensively. They made miscalculations on the defensive side of the football, quickly adjusted and kind of improved what was going on there. All the injuries offensively to start the year. And it never got to the point where it got away from them, right?

It was one and four, but then they responded. They won four or five. They're currently on a five-game win streak. They've taken down some good football teams along the way. They beat Minnesota. They beat Buffalo. I'm impressed. I'm impressed with what they were able to do here to kind of remind us the type of coach that Sean McVeigh is, even when they go all in and rally and they can go win a Super Bowl or when they're kind of taking a step back seemingly with a lot of young players and a lot of transition.

They still are competitive. They've been behind the eight ball the last two years, got out of the cellar, win the division this year. And I think they got a chance to, you know, they're going to host the Packers or Washington. why can't they at least win a playoff game this year? I'm very impressed with the coaching job of Sean McVeigh. Again, a lot of changes around him once again, right? The coaching staff keeps getting depleted. That's not just player transition.

It's coaches. And they continue to get it done. And they did it with a week to spare. That's the great thing. So they don't have to play this week necessarily. Joe, I just want to remind the audience, after week eight, when the L.A. Rams wouldn't beat Minnesota. looked ahead at the schedules. We saw

a faltering Seattle team. We saw Kyler Murray who couldn't pull out of his head out of his behind. And we both said, the Rams are going to do this. They're going to do this thing. They were three and five, was it at the time? Yes. Three and five, I think. And they went

and won seven of their next nine games. So, congrats to the Rams. What a heck of a performance, man. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Would you like my next one? Yeah. I want to do a similar thing with the other team in Los Angeles. Jim Harbaugh, year one, and they make the playoffs. I know that they didn't win their division.

The chiefs are going to make that really hard to do, but they go in in a very competitive AFC, right? I mean, going into the season, you had a lot of teams that were hyped up, whether that's the dolphins or the Jets or the Bengals, the Browns, right, with them coming off of their really successful 23 campaign, a lot of hype for maybe what, Jacksonville could do in a bounce back year.

But the team that was kind of forgotten was the Chargers. And it's a very interesting situation with the Chargers because typically, you're talking about year one of a new GM and a new head coach. It's kind of a foundational year. But they stepped into a situation with a quarterback, right? Herbert's the guy, right? Not often you get a complete transition with head coach and GM, but they have a clear franchise quarterback in the mix.

Came in very quickly. and you have won 10 games this season. Maybe they'll win 11. But in a competitive conference year one for them to set this foundation, a winning foundation, not a, hey, we got to figure stuff out. No, they're in the dance. They got a big time quarterback. And obviously, I think the Chargers should be really excited about their path forward.

So kind of a big hat tip to the success of year one with Harbaugh in L.A. Hagenic feels like they've had like seasons within the season almost. Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of coaches compartmentalize each season by quarter, you know, like we do on the show even. And the thing, it's interesting when you look at the quarter, they haven't had a losing quarter yet this season. I think that's kind of important.

So, all right, you got another one? Yeah, I'll make it quick, Drew Locke. Oh. Yeah, dude, I felt so bad for this guy. And he goes to the Giants for the exact opportunity to play because you know that Daniel Jones is shaky. And they don't play him. They play Tommy DeVito. And he has a couple of rough outings.

But then he goes and plays this Colts team that has everything on the line and goes out there 17 of 23, 309 yards, four touchdowns, no interceptions. Ads are rushing touchdown. So a five touchdown day for Drew Locke against a team that had to have it with no good players. I mean, it's Malik neighbors and pretty much that's it on that Giants team. And maybe there's a lot more of a story to say about the Colts and Shane Steichen. We'll get to that in a minute. But this Giants team, abysmal, nothing to play for. Drew Locke has a lot to play for with potential opportunities that are coming.

You've seen the glow up of quarterbacks that get second, third, fourth chances and they finally figure it out. Drew Locke's going to get a chance, I think, this offseason. and I'm not saying he'll get signed by any team to be a starter, but he'll be in a position where he can be a Mason Rudolph player. You know what I mean? Like that has a chance to go to a shaky situation and play, and we'll see what happens. But hat tip to him, very tough circumstances this year.

And boy, oh, boy, is he going out on a high note. Joe, my favorite thing about his performance, he didn't take a single sack. We're going to get into QB play today, too. That's the big topic of the show. Big topic of the week, actually. And one of my pet peeves is quarterbacks that take unnecessary sacks. And that's been a story through Locke's career.

And that was not true this week. He actually evaded some sacks. He got the ball out quickly. Did some really nice things in the pocket. So yeah, that's a good one. I didn't even think about that one. I like it. Brett Whitefield,

I feel like I've hijacked the first 10 minutes of the show. When we get back, we get to your champs and chumps. And then I got a slate of champs as well that I, or chumps that I want to get to. Folks, be sure to stick with us. Yeah, I got a champ. I'm surprised in your litany of champs, you didn't mention this one. Joe Burrow, bro. Joe Burrow is my champ.

He has got the Cincinnati Bengals in a position to make the playoffs potentially, and he's basically doing it on his own. I mean, he's got Jamar Chase and T. Higgins. But as far as that, dude, there's nothing really else going on here. This is an unbelievable story. They've won four in a row. They've had some very untimely losses this season. but they've played, you know,

competitive football games against the Chiefs, against the commanders, against the Ravens, twice against the Ravens and lost, against the aforementioned chargers, against the Pittsburgh Steelers. So, like, they,

they have been competitive all season long, and it's basically just Joe Burrow. And if you want, like, I don't want to give too many spoilers away for our conversation later on today and Thursday, but you'd have a hard time convincing me there's somebody playing quarterback better than Joe Burrow right now.

That's true. He's playing the best. Yeah. And the fact that he has them in this position, I think is just incredible to me. Yeah, I'll be honest with you. I have plenty of good things to say about Joe Burrow, the rest of this show and the quarterback ranking. So I didn't feel overly compelled there. And they still need a lot of help, man. They need the dolphins to lose. They need the Broncos to lose. And they have to win. And here's the thing. Burrow is playing the best quarterback in the NFL right now. I struggle with this strength of victory being 281. It's the second worst in the NFL. Like for all the teams they've played close, man,

they just couldn't beat any of them. And they have a very, very, I mean, their slate of wins, 281 win percentage after beating a 9 and 5 Broncos team. So I don't know. Joe Burroughs is awesome, though. There's no question. That's fair.

Trump's. We got chumps to do. I have a really clear trump. for somebody to start. Go ahead. Get it out. Rahim Morris. I mean, this is an expert level choke job. And when you cost your team a football game, in my opinion, he cost his team a football game in a half the habit situation against a team with a better record than you that you played competitive against the whole game. That's just like, it's almost unforgivable, Joe. It really is. And the way that game ended, the Atlanta Washington game, if you're not familiar, it, sorry, the way

regulation ended was so piss poor and then his explanation after the game just made it worse and then it's doubling down after after the game where he's saying there's no matter how easy you want to make it it's just way more complicated than anyone's making it sound no it's not bro you had two timeouts left with 35 seconds in the game and you didn't use them to stop the clock and gain more yards so for those wondering the sequence um Atlanta gets the ball back it was uh Was it a tied football game, right? Yeah, tie football game. They get the ball back with like a minute or so left.

They go down the field. They get into field goal range to the Atlanta 19. They run and play with 40 seconds left. Yeah, it gets them down to the, sorry. They start at the Atlanta 19. First play, 25-yard pass to get to the Atlanta 44. There's about 35 seconds left when the tackle is made. They don't call time out, Joe.

and they let the clock run down to 17 before they run the first pass. And then it just turns into a total clock malfeasance from there. They end up, you know, essentially trying to kick a 56-yard field goal, which becomes short. Atlanta goes on to lose in overtime to Washington because they don't even get the ball. Trump, he's a chump. Terrible, especially kind of had some heroic moments there towards the end of the game from Pennix. And boy, yeah, spoiled the whole thing. And now you congratulations.

You have beat the Tampa Bay Buccaneers twice, but you no longer control your destiny with being the NFC South champions. So yeah, that's a terrible job. Leads right into my first chump, Sean Peyton, Denver Broncos head coach and a lot of not exactly what you just described for Rahim Morris, but some of that for Sean Peyton. Let's be honest, if you watch that game, the Broncos were in that game on a hope and a prayer.

Right. Like they had crazy defensive stops. Yeah. Had a crazy touchdown on fourth down to even be in position to tie the game. You're on the road. Joe Burroughs scoring at will against everybody. You got to go for two, dude. You got to go for two at the end there. And then to play overtime for the tie?

Oh, yeah. Come on, man. Come on. Like just didn't do the right things to put his team. in positions to have their best chance to win the football game. And then the post game press conference was very similar to what you're describing, where it's like he kind of talks into it. It's complicated and you know he starts talking about execution.

Yeah. Man, come on. When coaches blame execution, they're blaming players. They're saying the players didn't do a good enough job doing what I told them to do. That's what they're saying. Which sometimes is true, Joe, but you don't want to ever. You just can't. Don't do that.

You just don't. Even if it's true, you just don't. You want to see leaders. take take the bullets for the but Sean Peyton's always been an egomaniac always always always you know it's crazy too he shielded Zach Taylor from being chump of the week exactly you're not wrong Zach Taylor was we texted about it he was about to be the chump of the week and then and then Sean Peyton bailed him out so and then so Chase Brown goes down sprains it high ankle sprained for Joe Burrow to

sneak it in dude and then the You had this, Cade York's been horrible since the moment he's entered in the NFL. Right, right. And you know, you had no interest in getting it closer? I don't know, dude, man. They won the game, but boy, they got away with some crap in that one. Yeah. So he's what I'm saying with with, with Burrow, by the way. He's got, he's got nothing to work with. Zach Taylor, them going to the Super Bowl was the worst thing that could happen to that team because it gave the owner the ability to puff his chest out. It preserves Zach Taylor's job, who I think everyone thought was on.

the hot seat going into that that playoff run. Yeah. And he's still there and he stinks. Yeah, I'm not a Zach Taylor guy. Also on the chump list, Shane Steichen, it's back to back years devastating. I knew you're going to go here. So I didn't. What a joke. What a joke.

I mean, defensively, they can't tackle. They can't get the kick return stop and they open the third quarter. His decision making all year long to even go to Flacco and he goes, oh and three in starts with flacco and just a masterclass. And then Pat McAfee is one of the most powerful voices in football. Okay. And for him to go in the way that he did. And Pat McAfee doesn't have time.

He had time to write that paragraph that he put in writing for the world to see. Yeah. Boy, that was ugly. I feel bad about my last chump a little bit. Why? Because I don't want to be, I don't want to like come across as like not sensitive. but Tua not playing on Sunday with the hip injury

when the, like the reason that he didn't play was because they were afraid that it could be worse. I don't know, man, you're a franchise quarterback, dude. You're a franchise quarterback, a paid franchise quarterback. Your team was two and six. They're at a reasonable position to get to the postseason. You can't, you got to play, man. You got to play.

I agree, Joe. we'll get into toughness as one of our QB traits that we like. That's the thing about two of those is it's like sometimes it's like don't lay it out there, dude, you know, like in game decisions. But. Yeah. Well, being reckless, I don't think is a substitute for being tough. That's a good way to, that's a good way to frame it. Yeah.

Oh, man. So those are, that's, those are my champs, chumps. Sorry. I came in with a robust list. I don't normally do that, but. No, normally I'm the guy that can't settle on one. So I'll throw a bunch of names in the hopper. I like it though, Joe.

You brought you brought the heat. It's a lot of decisive moments here late in the season, right? I mean, it's like you really find out the medal of some of these people and teams. And sometimes you're pleasantly surprised. And sometimes you're like, my God. And I think the perpetual, like the Stuyckin thing a couple of years in a row, the Tua thing, which, you know, Valability's been an issue for him.

Like, to me, I don't want to take the words from Kyle Crabs, the host of Lockdown Dolphins, but he called it a legacy opportunity for Tua. Ooh. You didn't, you weren't there for it. Snoop Huntley has to come in and play because we're worried that you could have a bad hip and now they're, they don't know if he's going to play,

but Snoop's going to take more snaps this week. Gross. Yeah, I mean hindsight is obviously 2020. Miami still gets the win, right? So it doesn't look terrible on them, but still tough. Who wasn't beating the Browns with DTR? Boy, you want to talk about bad quarterbacking. Ooh. Holy smokes. And what do you expect, right? I mean, he was like their third quarterback. Like, you got to be mindful of that. Like, but it's just, I would take like three intentional groundings in that game. Like, I don't. Yeah. That's how he avoided sacks. Just chucked the ball up. Yeah, I don't know about all that. Okay, so we've done champs and chumps. We've done a lot of it, actually. Coming up next, we're going to start talking about how to build the perfect quarterback. It's quarterback week here on the NFL First Read podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. Stick with us, folks.

All right, bright, Whitefield. On the Thursday episode, we're going to really get into the playoff implications and previews. week 18 and all of that. And we're also on Thursday, we're going to give our own individual rankings of the starting quarterbacks in the NFL. That will surely not be met with any resistance and everyone will totally understand the order that we put them on a list. But for today to kind of set the scene for that conversation is we want to build the perfect quarterback.

And Brett and I have different categories, arm strength, accuracy, off platform, and ability to create pre-snap processing, post-snap processing, toughness and leadership. We're going to go through those categories. And our objective is collaboratively agree on who we think the best guy is in each of these categories to build the perfect quarterback. And along the way, we'll invoke names and hopefully have a good conversation here that really allows us to break down what's most important to us in a quarterback and which players embody those traits. So Brett Weifield, shall we? Let's do it. Let's do it. Starting with arm strength.

Yeah, there's a good list here. Do you want to define one of my favorite things is about, and I don't know if I'm going to give you credit for this or not, but maybe I should, when I go through the fantasy points data suite and there's different metrics and maybe I don't know exactly what the abbreviation is or exactly what it's defining, you know, you could kind of hover your mouse over it and it explains it. And I'm like, man, you know what? Those are really concise, straightforward definitions. And I wonder, did Brett Whitefield write those? I did. I did, actually. Wow. So your ability to define things in a concise, clear way is outstanding. So when we mention arm strength, what, what are the, how would you define that? What's,

what's on your mind there? When I think of arm strength, it's not. So I think the first thing people go to is the ability to throw far. The reality is, Joe, is everybody can throw. far in the NFL for the most part even a a weak arm quarterback can throw far if they throw it with a certain trajectory do you get what i'm saying distance on the ball is not really an issue for correct quarterbacks yeah most plays don't require 60 air yards you know they're usually like a well-timed go balls about 35 to 40 yards every quarterback in the NFL can make that throw so that's not what i think of what i think of arm strength i think about the ability to ramp up a certain amount of velocity to put the ball into tight windows at the intermediate and deep level on a line, on a rope.

I'm not talking like, again, every quarterback can pretty much zip a ball in the short part of the field. But when you're talking about, you know, a deep out at 15 to 18 yards, ripping that opposite hash into a tight window, that's arm strength. You know, ripping a post between a corner and a safety, you know, 25 yards downfield. into a tight window, you know, underneath the safety, but over top of the corner. Like, that's arm strength. Being able to ramp that velocity up quickly, too, I think is important. That's what I think of what I think of arm strength. All right.

So let's get into contenders. Yeah. And then, by the way, the ability to make the extraterrestrial deep throw is also part of it. It's just not the main driving factor to me. So I didn't say the beginning part to say it doesn't matter. It's just not. I like that. I hate majoring and minoring, right?

Yes, exactly. Yeah, and I think that's what you kind of do with that stuff. My whole philosophy on QB play, before we get into this, is what you just said. So I think the, I don't want to say casuals because that sounds disrespectful. The less versed people in football, they do major in minoring. So you see, you know, you see one ridiculous play a quarterback. Justin Herbert has been praised a lot. for his play on the field because of the minor plays, right?

The two or three plays he makes a game without with kind of ignoring the other 50. And you and I have talked about this a little bit. And so I really focus on down to down what a QB's asked to do. That's way more important to me than how often you can put your cape on it and roll that way. Doesn't mean the cape stuff isn't important, Joe. I just really like all of the QB centric traits a lot that make you a good quarterback on most of the plays. If I can get you to like the 90% range, we're good. You know what I mean?

So, yeah, that's a good way of phrasing it. All right. Let's get some names here. And I think Josh Allen's a very obvious one to invoke. You can do what he wants with the football, right? It has access to the entire field. Absolutely. Josh Allen was definitely on my short list.

I'm not. Yeah, I can't think of a scenario where I wouldn't trust Josh's arm. You know, like, either can he from a, from an arm strength standpoint or velocity standpoint. Yeah. Uh, Justin Herbert. Yep. He's on my list. Patrick Mahomes.

Also on my list. Anyone else that tops those three guys comes close? I think those are the three, right? Those are the three. I had a fourth down. He's, Matthew. Matthew Stafford, brother. For sure.

He's lost a little bit, but in his prime, absolutely. But he's still, he's still worth me. on the list. Oh my gosh. I remember some of the conversations you and I used to have about Matthew Stafford. It's like what he's what was on the menu for him in Detroit that was just literally

because of his arm talent? Not necessarily because he's capable, but like literally part of their menu was relying on you can make these throws, man. Stafford people are going to learn over the next two episodes. I'm a big Stafford guy.

Yes. dude stafford is awesome absolutely you know and i actually think his uh his year this year and last year has earned me a ton of respect because it hasn't been ideal circumstances for him and he's still getting it done he had some years like that with detroit where he didn't get it done and so i he's really earned my respect at another level i've always respected him obviously but um yeah stafford can freaking sling it man so we got to all alan mohomes Herbert, Stafford is kind of like the fourth guy. Yeah.

If we made this list like three, four or five years ago, Stafford would probably be number one, if we're being honest. Herbert's kind of the new Stafford to me. What do you call it? We're crowning a victor in all of these, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's Josh.

I think it's Josh too. Okay. I kind of knew we were going to get to there. I just. All right. All right. Accuracy. Accuracy.

All right. I think there's like, Let me see. Well, you go, why don't you throw first? Should I throw first with the guy that I think it should be? I think we probably agree on this, so no. Well, yeah, let's go out of the way. Let's go out of the way.

Joe Burrow. Joe Burrow, yeah. He's the most accurate. So that's going to be our pick. But some honorable mention guys. I throw Jared off in the ring. He's on my list for sure. I've got two on my list.

Yeah, there's I don't think you can throw the full route. Get rid of all this other stuff. Yeah. Ball placement for Tua. Yeah, true. Okay. Just isolate that in a vacuum.

I got a sneaky one that might feel weird to say out loud. Ooh, ooh, I do too. You do? Okay. You ready? Yeah. Baker Mayfield. Yeah, I had Baker Mayfield.

Nice. Okay. Yeah, I had him down. How could you not? If you watch Baker Mayfield, you know he's highly accurate. And the metrics certainly support that in the fantasy point. State of Sweet. Yeah, I remember even coming back, his college career, Oklahoma. Unbelievably accurate. When I was at PFF and he was, I mean, I still think to this day,

he's unseated as far as his college accuracy. And he's maintained that head, a couple rough years in the middle there, but he's back to being who he is. And that's an accurate quarterback. Yeah, I came into this conversation with Burrow, Burrow Mayfield golf to it as my guys in the list. Nice. I think we mentioned Stafford already when he's feeling it. He's also pinpoint, but he obviously has off days. Yeah. But. Yeah, I think that's what for a lot of the quarterbacks that I thought about, it's like,

man, you have your moments, but the consistency that I get from these other guys is just better. Yeah. All right. Here we go. Next category is off platform ability to create. Brother, there's three names. And I couldn't get myself to put another one down. Oh.

You know, it's funny. is I think I know who the three are, obviously. I think there's some debate to be had here because they all do it kind of differently. I think that's what I love about the conversation we're about the house. Yes, yes. It is very different. Mahomes, Alan Jackson, okay? Yep.

Okay, those are the three. There's other good creative all platform players. They're just not close enough to these three guys. Correct. Like these three guys can absolutely ruin your day. You could be the best defensive coordinator of all time and just run into problems because these guys can can break you down. no matter what. Okay, so for Mahomes, what makes him special off platform to me is his ability to extend

and throw, like calling a timeout. Let's go, Brett Whitefield. We need to do a way better job of defining what this means before we get into this. All right. You know what? Let's do that on the other side of it, folks. Be sure to stick with us. Brett Whitefield, define, get your definition out of here so we can talk about what makes these

guys special. Yeah, sorry, to interrupt you, Joe. I just was like, you know what? we're going to, you know, we're going to waste a lot of time if we don't define this. So when I think of off platform slash creative, I think there's, you know, winning just with your legs and running the football. You know, think of Jaden Daniels or Jalen Hertz. They win that way creatively. But there's also the extending plays with your legs and using your arm to win down the field or just win in general. But then there's also these off platform moments where maybe you're in the pocket, but you are using

different arm slots. You know, it could be, it's, it's kind of. of an extension of the armed talent conversation, but it's also creative playmaking. So I think all three of those things encompassed is what kind of, to me, is creative playmaking or off platform winning. Agreed? I agree with that. Okay, cool. Now let's go with Patrick Mahomes. I think what makes Mahomes special off platform is his ability to move within the pocket and extend, but then use his eyes to get people open and throw up. them the football. Like he's so good at I'm going to move you and then

I have an arm angle and I have a throwing platform that I can get to quickly. That's going to throw the ball to the space that you vacated and my guys there. In addition to like the whole extending to throw and everything in his bag from there is I think what makes

him awesome off platform. And when we say extend I don't think that Pedro Holmes extends. This dude will literally hold the ball for 12, 13, he's got multiple plays of season of like 14 second time to throw. I mean,

it's insane. And when he's in that mode, he usually turns out on the playoffs, right? Where it's like, if what I want isn't there, I'm just going to extend and hold the ball. I know that I can.

Yeah. Exactly. You can break tackles. He stretches it out to the sideline, waits to the last second, and then just absolutely kills you. And those are backbreaking plays for defenses, man.

When you, I mean, shoot, just rewind, not to jump to a different player, but rewind the Lions Bills game. You know, the bills did a lot of great stuff in structure, too. But when Josh broke the pocket, it was just like, there was nothing Detroit could do to stop. That was his, that was their game plans.

Like, we know you're going to run man coverage. And if Josh can extend, eventually, like, guys are going to run away from guys. Yep. Okay. That's Mahomes. Alan, it's the physicality that he brings to the table, right? The stiff arming dudes, guys can't tackle him one on one. They're stepping out of plays and then keeping them alive.

and then tapping into that arm strength that we ground him with, that makes him really special. But then also, like, as a runner, the physicality that he, he has. And then all of a sudden, he's breaking pursuit angles with a little bit more speed than maybe you think he has. So it's like the, it's how the physical tools allow him to make things work off platform. I don't think that he has the same, like, vision and like anticipatory skills that maybe you get from a home's off platform. But what he does physically is like pretty, pretty, pretty, I wouldn't say pretty unique. It is unique and pretty much unlike anything we've ever seen in the league.

Two things with him stand out to me with his creative playmaking is when he breaks the pocket, if you don't get significant flow from the defense to the ball, he will gaff you on the ground because he's so big. You're going to have a corner out there come and try to forget it. Even a linebacker, you know, you're going to have a linebacker diving at his ankles, not great. You need multiple bodies committed to stopping him from running. And the problem with that is as guys start to peel out of their coverage lanes, that's when he just ramps up that bomb. I mean, and how many bombs does he hit just from extending plays? Like, I think he's the most deadly deep ball thrower when he's extending there is in the league.

It's very frustrating to watch if you're not a Bills guy. It's like, geez, O'P, this play looks dead and then they hit a 60-yard touchdown. Just like, oh, my God. Yeah, I think the touchdown of Keon Coleman against the Jets on Sunday was that, right? Exactly. And that ball. A tackle, three guys caving in on them, throws back across the field. Yep.

Okay. Touchdown. What do you do? Third and nine. Sorry. You're not holding him to a field goal. It's a touchdown. Exactly.

Jackson? Go ahead. Yeah. Lamar, I mean, just to start, the running ability. I mean, he's the most prolific running quarterback of all time. So he can gash you that way. I feel like the last two years, Joe, he's even taken a step further, though. And he's now dabbling in more of the keeping the,

eyes downfield. I'm going to make the defense commit to stopping me from running and then I'm going to throw it over your head. He's ramped that up to a whole new degree, which I think has made him a little bit more special. That's why this MVP race is so fascinating, by the way, because Josh is playing out of his mind, but Lamar is honestly having his best season ever. So it's, man, it's his speed, too, I think it makes him just so scary because it's like, you know, he can stop on a dime. The start stop ability is crazy. And then, just the top end speed when he really opens it up it's like let me shoot you saw it on christmas day right he just was like a 40 yard touchdown run me just in a in a blink of an eye he's gone so

i think that it's like an and a little extra layer there that he offers that's kind of scary he's electric right yeah i think that's kind of the word that i go to and and it used to be like you mentioned a lot more extending to run and using athleticism but man he's extending and launching as well and the highlight package there is pretty doggone good. So all three of those guys are a problem. I'm fortunate to have Alan, but I hate playing those other guys because you just know the drive is never over. There's never a situation where things are comfortable.

They stress you to defend every blade of grass on the field horizontally and vertically. And it's like, this is hard. You know, this is hard. And even when you're right, you could be wrong. And these guys, these guys make you pay at a high level. Okay, pre-snap processing. We didn't crown one.

We didn't crown one. Oh, geez. I don't want to. I know. I think I have to pick Mahomes. I was going to say that, but then just like, but really like a 1K rushing guard to season with Lamar? Like, I don't think we can turn our nose up at that.

That is crazy. My Holmes has done it in higher leverage moments with more consistency. That's true. I don't know, dude. I would. So at the end of the day when we present our, here's our perfect QB we built. And we don't have Lamar Jackson's playmaking ability on there. I feel like that's,

doesn't that sound weird saying that out loud? No, that's fine. Give it to them. Okay. All right. You're not, there's no wrong answer to me. So if you felt any level of conviction, it's fine. I'll align there.

No problem at all. All right. So Lamar Jackson, you are the off platform creative winner. Okay. pre-snap processing i better let you define that before we start talking players yeah so these are when i kind of go on my rant about qb play especially these youngsters and doing all the small things correctly pre-snap processing is something that the average fan just can't really evaluate but it's it to me it's getting your offense into the right play into the right protection and identifying

kind of what the goal of the play is considering what's called. This is obviously very hard to identify and evaluate for most people. I feel like you and I are more than qualified. And so I think there's one clear-cut guy for me in this angle, and that's Jared Goff. I think we talk about getting to the right play, you hear him kill plays all the time, he audibles the line, having just complete command of his offense. the fact that he you you almost never see a free runner running at Jared Goff it like doesn't happen where a guy who comes completely unblocked it's so rare and a lot of people don't realize when you see that happen that's typically the quarterback's fault that's not the offensive line typically obviously the offensive line does make mistakes and that happens but when you see a free runner coming at a quarterback that is more often than not the quarterback's fault he didn't identify something correctly pre-snap didn't get his protection right that almost never happens with Jared Goff I think that's a player.

I had a list of four here. So he was on my list. I want to invoke Stafford as well here. I think Stafford is good of a job of identifying where his best matchups are. And he will pound that into oblivion. If he feels like he's got a matchup that he likes, good luck, good luck. Because he's going to exploit that. And he finds it extremely.

well. And I think a lot of the same things that you applied to golf also apply to Stafford. But I thought that was kind of the area of emphasis that I really appreciate what Stafford is understanding where those matchups are and going after them. So true, especially in an era where a lot of play callers and quarterbacks don't like doing the same thing multiple times in a game because I think it's risky because the defense could catch on. Stafford's like, nah, I'm going to force you to change the way you're playing me right now. And then once you do that, I'll stop gashing you with you know, Pooka Nakua slant routes or whatever the play is for that game. So totally agree with that.

You have more? I don't think that they're this to the same level, but I have Burrow written down, but I want to save him for something else. Yeah. So I won't go hard there. And I think, I think Tua deserves a shout out here. His ability to identify free access and get to it. His processing speed is really, really high.

I know that you can point to kind of the style of offense that they play. Two is the straw that makes the whatever turns the drink. With, I know where my routes are going to be. I know how it aligns with this coverage shell. And that's how he gets the ball out so quick. And there's so many explosive plays is because of his ability to pre-snap process. But I don't think it's, it's not golf or Stafford. I'm comfortable with golf being the answer here.

Yeah, I think golf's the answer. Um, another weird anecdote, anecdote as far as this goes, uh, I was just watching, rewatching the Vikings game through the day. There's a play where Sam Darnold kills the play into like a toss sweep to the outside. I was like, I think it was outside zone toss. And it's a loaded front, nine man front, lined heavy on the play side and Darnold kills the, and runs this toss sweep right into the teeth of the defense. Like that's an example of bad pre-stap processing.

That's why I want to throw that out there. That's another example, though. When you see a play like that happen, it very rarely gets considered that that was the quarterback's problem. Usually it's like, oh, the offensive line sucked. Or what a dumb play call. But no, it's like, Darnold literally killed the play call, went to that. And then it went for minus four because they ran it right at the teeth of a nine-man front. While we're slandering quarterbacks, can I slander Aaron Rogers?

Oh, absolutely. I don't know if you saw the fumble that Garrett Wilson had. It was a. Yes. Okay, that plays one million percent on Aaron Rogers. It's, it's, Eric, Garrett Wilson's the ex-receiver isolated by himself to the left of the formation. There's nobody else over there. One by three, right?

Yeah. It's a one by three. Yeah. Rasul Douglas is, it's clearly man coverage. He's lined up like on the line of scrimmage in his face. They call a screen to Garrett Wilson. There's nobody over there. They're counting on two offensive linemen to get over there and make the block.

I repeat, there's nobody over there. Rasul Douglas is in press coverage. Remember, like, the, was it a fake punt that the Colts ran or something like that, that everybody clowns and like, this is the dumbest play you've ever seen? This is literally the quarterback version of that play. The best thing that you can hope for is a one or a two-yard loss on a tackle for a loss, right? Maybe the best thing you can hope for him is an incomplete pass. Right.

He sticks with the play, Brett. He sticks with the play. And what do you think happens? A two-yard, probably about it should have been a two-yard loss. he tries, Garrett Wilson tries to create something and Oliver comes out and forces the ball out. Like you can't run the play.

You cannot run the play. Yeah. You just can't run that play. That's an example of bad pre-snap processing. That's a great call. All right. So golf. Like if you don't get off coverage, you can't call that play.

And also, why is there not like a slot or a tight end or something over there? There's nothing. I watched that plan. I was like, Rogers is cooked. Cooked. Okay. Post-snap processing. Yeah.

Suppose snap is, once the ball is snapped, we're looking at how quickly quarterbacks identify. One, the favorable match we talked about, but two, the coverage voids. You know, quickly identifying coverage, safety rotations, linebackers dropping out, where the blitz is, you know, where they're hot from, things of that nature. That's a very significantly important trait. Arguably the most important trait for a quarterback is this right here. And so I think there's a list of great.

There's a long list of good candidates here. I think there's some guys who are very good at this, but not as good with the pre-snap stuff. And conversely, like, I think golf is still good here, Joe, but I don't think he's the best by, because occasionally he'll get caught by like a weird linebacker rotation or something and throw a ball right to a defender. There's a few, I think Joe Burrow is elite here.

Yes, number one guy had done. Yeah, I think Burrow, he's almost infallible. Patrick Mahomes, too, man. Have him down. I have a crazy stat for you as far as I think this is a good example of post-snap processing. On zero to nine throws, zero to nine-yard throws, it's very hard to generate positive EPA. And in fact, I think per John Costco at PFF, there's been six examples of a quarterback having positive EPA on throws zero to nine in a season. three of those six seasons are Patrick Mahomes.

That just shows you the elite command he has. He immediately identifies when a coverage, what the coverage is, where guys are rotating to, what those open spots are going to be. That is insanely hard to do. Think about that. I mean, especially EPA is more of a team stat, but when it's that specific to a certain type of play, obviously you can credit the quarterback. I think the other quarterbacks on that list, by the way,

Peyton Manning one year, Tom Brady another year, and Matt Ryan, the or maybe it was drew breeze um i mean just insane list so i think that's a a really cool stat for post-nap processing you you brought up some names that i had i burrow was kind of my leading candidate here and one of my favorite quotes about joe burrow was zach taylor was asked one time about um you know why don't you run more play action with joe burrow he's like do you realize how good of a post-snap processor joe burrow is you think i want his back to the defense at all. I want him to be able to see that rotation because I know he knows where to go with the football. And so I think that's one of my favorite things about Burrow in general is just how

little the scheme helps them, right? This is not a scheme. They don't have a screen game. They don't have a run game. They don't have a play action game. It's read it and rip it, right? That's what Joe Burrow does. And that's, I mean, he's putting up the numbers that he puts up, reading it and ripping it. I know he's got Chase and Higgins, but literally nothing schematically is there to help him. No RPO's none of it. There's no quarterback run game. Nothing. Read it and rip it.

And boy, he's unbelievable. So do you think it's comfortably Mahomes versus Burrow here? Do you got another guy you want to? No, you can vote. I even think Lamar Jackson is worth pointing out here. I think golf is worth pointing out, but it's a Burrough Mahomes conversation to me. Okay. I go with Burrow.

This is tough for me. Oh. That's the right too, though, right? Oh, for sure the right, too. And frankly, I'm not even sure it's close. I don't know that any... Casim. Yeah, there's a chasm after that. Yeah, yeah.

Like, as much as I think golf is good at it, I think it's a significant drop-off from those guys. So, gosh. So I'm having... We're getting towards the end of this, and we haven't picked Mahomes for anything. So this is... I have a clear one for Mahomes coming up.

Oh, okay, that's true. But that's okay. All right. Let's roll with it then. Let's go, Burrow. We're sitting, it's one quarterback's going to be, well, maybe two will be represented twice. But we're sitting here saying nobody's playing quarterback better than Joe Burrow. I'm not going to feel bad about him. Having two of these.

That's a good call. That's a good call. Toughness. Yeah. There's like, well, I mean, Burroughs on the list for sure. He plays seemingly through injuries all the time. It's got to be. Mahomes, though, right? This is the one you thought Mahomes would win?

No, it's definitely not. It's not Mahomes. No? This is Josh Allen. Well, Josh Allen's also on the list. Mahomes plays through how many ankle injuries a year? I'm starting to wonder if they're real, right? When he gets an ankle injury, he seems to play even better. That's fair. There's a lot of hilarious memes

coming out about that, too. Who's got the longest active start, consecutive start streak in the NFL at quarterback? Josh Allen, and they're about to extend it by a game and play him for By a billion. 114 consecutive starts. You know the next closest is? Matthew Stafford, I don't know.

It's Jared Goff. Oh, is it nice? 53. Where how many Allen in a row? 114. Questions about Josh Allen and durability and the reckless style that he plays. A hundred and fourteen. It's like the 12th longest streak in the history of the NFL.

He's played this season with a broken left hand the entire season. I didn't even know that. Yes. A fracture left hand. He's still stiff arming dudes with that hand. All right. Well, for what it's worth, I had Josh Allen in my number one slot, and then I had a gap, a cell gap,

and then I had other guys listed. So I agree with you. I was trying to make an argument out of it. Matthew Stafford should be on the list, though, right? Plays through a broken back pretty much. Yes. And with L.A. What was that whole sequence with?

What was that game? He was with the Lions, where he, like. Cleveland Browns. Was it that Browns game where he comes back? He throws a touchdown pass. They call the touchdown. time out or whatever for the two-point aversion. He's literally whimpering on the sideline.

Like, you're like, I think this guy's going to have to have his arm amputated. Yeah. And then somehow the Holy Ghost takes over and he won't happen and make a play. Torn rotator cuff on his throwing colder. Right. And then he goes out and throws the game winning touchdown. Josh played through a partially torn UCL two years ago. Come on.

It's Josh. It's Josh. And honorable mention Stafford, in my opinion. And I think, I think Baker Mayfield deserve some. love here too. Oh, dude. Yeah. He's a dog. I actually ruined his career almost by injured for Cleveland in the playoffs. Dude, that whole season, nobody talked about it. It's like these guys

tackles are hurt, chubs hurt, Mayfield's got like a million injuries. It's like, oh, wow, I'm surprised he's not playing his best football. Yeah. The perspective that was completely lost on Baker Mayfield is an absolute disgrace. Agreed. And Cleveland deserves everything that they're getting right now because of it. I like that. Spicy Joe, let's go. What are you doing?

This guy comes in, you haven't had a good quarterback in your whole franchise history. Yeah. Comes in, he sets all the records as a rookie. Like, you knew the second he came into that game. There's what, the vending machines with Budweiser all across Cleveland waiting for the first Browns win. This guy comes in and does it. You go to the playoffs.

Like, you're on track. You're on track. It's not my fault. You put stupid players around him that were not, you know, you got to have the right people around them. And you just didn't. Freddie Kitchens and Jarvis Landry and Odell Beckham. I'm like, you screwed up.

Yep. And you screwed up again by trading for Deshaun Watson. Leadership. This is your Mahomes. This is Mahomes, man. Yeah. Like we spend to the AFC championship game every single year. He's been to five Super Bowl.

He's won three of them. And here's the thing. I have every reason in the world to not like Patrick Mahomes. The only reason I wouldn't like him is because he's good. And people don't like some of his corks in the way he plays. Like he's got weird. mannerisms, right? The way he plays. But that dude is so in command of what's going on. You don't, I mean, that's just who he is, dude. Like he gets, you talk about just the focus and

getting into that moment and what he demands out of his teammates, dude, it's, it's Mahomes. He's the, he's the guy. He's the number one leader. There's other guys you can bring up Allen, Stafford, Gough, Burrow, Jackson, all worthy names. It's Mahomes. Agreed. Um, so it's crazy. We, we only picked Mahomes officially for one category. Joe, but we did invoke his name, I think, on every other one. Every single one, except for pre-snap. I don't think we talked about him pre-snap. Okay.

All right. Yeah, you're right. But still, what do we got here? Seven traits, and he was mentioned for six of them. So for those who think we're being hard on Mahomes, he was mentioned for six of the seven traits. So here's our perfect quarterback. Arm strength, Josh Allen, accuracy, Joe Burrow, off-platform ability to create Lamar Jackson.

pre-snap processing Jared Goff, post-snap processing, Joe Burrow, toughness, Josh Allen leadership, Patrick Mahomes. Where do we get this guy? Can we get this guy? Pretty good player here. You know what I mean? Might win a few games with this guy. He's not in this coming draft.

I'll tell you that right now. Well, I mean, Carson Beck declared me. Bedwetter. Carson Beck. Boy. All right. Well, that's fun. That was a fun episode.

So next episode, we're going to rank them, one through 32. Got a feeling those guys will be pretty high on the list. Got a feeling they will be too. All right, that's going to do it, folks. Remember, no matter what develops, we will always be your first read because our pre-snap processing is excellent. Thank you for listening. We are out.