Fantasy Football Daily - NFL First Read | Wide Receiver Landscape + NFC West Breakdown

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

Dive deep into the dynamic world of NFL wide receivers with hosts Brett Whitefield and Joe Marino on "NFL First Read." In this episode, Brett and Joe dissect the intricate nuances of the wide receiver landscape, exploring the game-changing talents, emerging stars, and strategic insights that define this crucial position on the gridiron. Later, Brett and Joe shift their attention to one of the most competitive divisions in the NFL: the NFC West. From the high-flying offenses to the tenacious defenses, they break down each team's strengths, weaknesses, and key players, offering keen insights and bold predictions for the upcoming season. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We are your first read of film and analytics podcast featuring myself and Joe Marino. This podcast is powered by Fantasy Points Data. If you are an audio-only partaker, we want you to get the best experience possible. This podcast does have a video element, so make sure you head over to the Fantasy Points YouTube page, subscribe, and turn notifications on. Joseph Marino. What is up, my friend? Brett Whitefield, we made it to episode two. And that is significant because only 90% of podcasts publish,

more than three episodes. And so we are well on our way to becoming in a rare category of podcasts. And we perhaps were in risk of getting to episode two after the whole Kyler Murray debacle last week. So haven't forgot, haven't forgot about it. And that works out well because today we're going to focus a lot of the conversation on the NFC West, which is where one Kyler Murray plays his football. I was just going to say, like, I'm going to end up walking into a rake again today. I can feel it already. I have a swollen area from last week and it's just it's going to come back so that's why you got to wear hats man when you walk into rakes it hides it right here but we got the both had the beard thing going which which works but i mean yours is lush man i mean it's it's looking good i love the gray in it as well

i think that's add so much character it's like uh it's four i'm like multicolored i got four colors going black brown red gray my kids love it um my one daughter though she wants me to shave it she says it makes me like old. Oh man. Have they ever seen you without a beard? I shaved it. I had a really, really long one on Halloween because I was a Viking and then I shaved it all off completely bare to the skin for the first time in five years. And they were all modified. Yeah, I get nervous about shaving my beard. First of all, it's required by management. The wife is pro beard. Have to have it. Yeah. But I think if I shaved it off, I don't know if my daughter would know who I am. You can't be messing around with that. Yeah, my three year old at my at the time,

year old, we're both like, what in the world? Who are you? You know, like, what is going on? This is crazy. Naya had never seen me completely beardless. So that was wild. But, yeah, man, I go to a barber every three weeks and he kind of lines it up and trims it. I can't make it look pretty on my own, so I need help. I'm due for one, actually. I'm going tomorrow.

Wow. Yeah. I'm in every other week. So I'm surprised you can make it three weeks. Well, I let, I get a little longer than you. Yeah, I see that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, dude. We should jump in. We, uh, I feel like the, the QB conversation went well last week. And so we have, uh, some wide receivers stuff to talk about. There's like 19 million wide receiver contracts pending Joe.

Um, there's also some potential holdout situation, some friend disgruntled franchise tag players. And then we just coming off the heels of AJ Brown and Amonara St. Brown and Devante Smith all just got paid. Michael Pittman Jr. So a lot to dive into with the receivers, Joe. Why don't we start with. we have this list of guys that are coming up for contract, Justin Jefferson being the top guy probably. Why don't we start there? Well, listen, it's a quarterback driven league, but the media circus is driven by the wide receivers, man.

It's just a different breed, man. These guys, they get traded, they hold out. There is more drama surrounding wide receivers in the NFL than any other position. And it's not particularly close. I think that's why you see so much movement with them all the time. And like you mentioned, there's just so many. guys right now that are, I guess, kind of holding out. I mean, it's voluntary OTAs, but based on some of the new rules within the NFL, you got to make a real calculated choice if you're actually going to hold out. So this is where guys kind of make their statements. And like you mentioned, probably the best receiver in the league in Justin Jefferson is one of those guys looking for a new deal playing or scheduled to play this year on the fifth year option. And I'm sure as Justin Jefferson sees the likes of A.J. Brown getting 32 million a season. Amundra

St. Brown getting a tick above 30 million a season. Of course, Tyree Kill at 30 million a season. Justin Jefferson probably wants his money, man. He probably wants that, I would guess, 35 million per season. I think that's where that contract is ultimately going to come in. And, you know, Minnesota, obviously, a team that just drafted J.J. McCarthy in the first round. You love the supporting cast. They've been able to assemble around him with the Jefferson and the Jordan Addison, the T.J. Hawkinson and Aaron Jones in that backfield with a lot of good on the offensive line. I like their center and tackle situation. You know, I feel like Justin Jefferson, just like the piece of that that makes you feel really good about what J.J. McCarthy is stepping into. I feel like it's only a matter of time before this gets done. But it's fascinating to consider just how high it's going to go.

I'm thinking it's going to land somewhere around 35 million per. Yeah. Oh, gosh, it feels that way. One thing we can talk about too here is like when it comes to a guy like Jefferson, no other than QB, the other two markets that have absolutely exploded over the last few years is wide receiver and defensive tackle. Wide receiver, actually, the market has grown faster than the QB market. If you look back to 2015 when Julio Jones signed what was at the time a massive contract extension, his cap percentage at signing was only like 9.5%.

Now you're getting guys like Tyreek when he signed in 2021, he's at 14.5. That's 5% jump for one position. That's massive. Devonta Adams 13.5% Cooper Cup and A.J. Brown right at 12.8 roughly. Amon Ra, even though he has the second highest A.A.V. he came in at like 11.75%. Point being though, like, these dudes are getting absolutely paid now.

Like this is an expensive deal. And you got a team like the Eagles paying two of these guys and A.J. Brown and Devante Smith, it's a passing league. And I think the Vikings kind of have to do whatever it takes, right? Is there, what is the, the repercussions if they don't retain him are significantly higher than paying him, I feel like.

Well, you would trade him, right? That's what you would do. If you're not going to pay him, you're going to trade him. And I feel like while maybe the, we had this like slew of NFL player trades, whether it was Kalil Mack the first time he was traded or Jalen Ramsey or Jamal Adams, that I think kind of put the player for picks trades into a different ballpark than maybe where they've come since right, where like Brian Burns is going for a two. You know, I feel like it's been different.

But I think Justin Jefferson's in that stratosphere of player where you would expect two first round picks to go back to Minnesota and maybe some change along with that. Yeah, but like is that, is anyone doing that though? Okay, if you're Buffalo. What if you're Pittsburgh? I'm not, I don't know if I'm wasting two first-round picks to give Russell Wilson a guy. What if you're Denver? That would make sense.

So like, yeah, it's not a deep menu of teams, but like, I think you ask yourself that same question. For every reason you would say it makes sense for Denver, for every reason you would say it makes sense for Buffalo. It would make sense for Minnesota to just, just pay him. Just pay him. And it's been a roster in transition, right? They've transitioned away from a lot of players. But I mean, this is a, this is a superstar player. It's in their prime.

That's not, that's not letting Eric Kendricks go. You know, that's, that's not, that's not letting Zedaria Smith go. Do you think Justin Jefferson's the best receiver in the league? If you ask me to put all the receivers in a bucket and I can pick one to start my offense with, I'm picking Justin Jefferson. Ooh, really? I'm surprised you think that's a surprising thing. I don't. It's not that surprising. I think my guy has always been Tyree Kill.

I think he's a math changer, but other than Tyree Kill. Oh, you did say all things considered. So you're considering age there. Yeah, Tyree Kill told us he's retiring at age 30. He's got two more seasons left, you know? Gotcha. Yeah, that's a good point. He's got some future ambitions that we won't get into here on this podcast. So what makes this conversation really interesting, though, Joe,

is you have potentially this waiting game happening between Justin Jefferson and C.D. Lamb where I think you can make the argument, Joe, that over the last 27-ish games or so, C.D. Lamb has been the best player, non-quarterback and football period, let alone the best receiver. This guy has been, I mean, he's been outrageously good the last, like, the last 10 games of 2022 and then all of last year. We'll get into more C.D. Lamb, but before we do, we've got to take a quick break. C.D. Lamb. Joe, I would, I mean, is you think it's close? Is C.D. Lamb and Jefferson close to you?

I think they're relatively close. I think I'd rather have Jefferson. And what I would say about C.D. Lamb and what makes what he's been doing so impressive is, right? Like, who's, I mean, I respect Brandon Cooks. I mean, the ghost of whatever Michael Gallup is. But like, there's not, there's not that much that's pulling attention away from. C.D. Lamb. The guy's just going out there. Everybody knows he's getting the football when he's making plays week in and week out. He's unbelievable. And so, yeah, it is, what is that that office meme where everybody's got the guns pointed at each other, just waiting to find out who's going to sign the next deal? And I think that's why you should give, like, in this conversation about all the deals that are coming, how about we give some kudos to Detroit and to Philadelphia for getting this stuff done and not putting themselves in this position now where you feel like there's going to be a standoff to see who's going to get the highest. dollar amount. The funny thing about that is I think Amon Ra's contract, the terms came back. He got exactly $10,000 more than Tyrie Kiel did on his extension. So that was clearly $2,500. Yeah. Yeah, it was like, I want, I want 10 grand. I just want to be paid more than Tyree Kiel. That's all he wanted. And he got it. Yeah. So AJ Brown's another one where I

probably put him in that top guy conversation. I don't think I would with Amonra, though. I really like Amun Ra. And so this is, this, okay, this is where it gets fascinating to me. I think in this entire boom that we've been seeing with the wide receiver market, and it's absolutely happening, you've already outlined that for us. I wonder if these receivers are number one, kind of like it's too fast and the teams are going to catch up and maybe are going to take like a money ball approach to the position. I think maybe you're already seeing that with some teams. But then I think you have to ask yourself this question.

If you're going to pay a wide receiver north of 30 million or 30 million or whatever, these big dollar, are, right? It's a, you know, the NFL is a limited resource environment. There's opportunity cost to be mindful of. If you pay $30 million to a receiver, that's, you know, a lot of money that you can't spend elsewhere on your, on your roster. You have to ask yourself this question, is this truly a transcendent player? Or are they just really good in my scheme on my team, with my quarterback? And I'm not saying that that's true for Amman Ross St. Brown. But at 30 something million, do you at least ask yourself if Amman Ross St. Brown played for a different team, would we be talking about in the same way? Or does Ben Johnson and Jared

golf get the most out of them? Oh, you're making my head hurt. Because I think you're right. I don't think Amunra is a transcendent player necessarily. I think he's a very good player and I think he'd be productive on most teams. But would he be putting up 15,600 yards on every team? I don't think he would. He doesn't fundamentally change the way defenses have to play. And that's why I like Tyree Kill as my top guy. That's why I think AJ Brown's up there. Cooper Cup, Jeff. Those guys fundamentally changed what you have to play. They can win literally any way, where Al Monroe's a little bit more pigeonholed into

the Ben Johnson, Jared Gough connection. Again, he'd be productive anywhere. I just think they're maximizing what he does really well. So I'm, you're making me skittish on my team's wide receiver here now. Well, look, we got to be real. We got to be real about it. And I think that's why it's important. We're talking about Justin Jefferson and C.D. Lamb.

I feel very good about those guys as, yeah, I don't think it matters. Like those guys are going to be dudes no matter what. And then you start working through this list and, you know, Brandon Iook we're going to get to, T. Higgins we're going to get to. Do they fall into the same category? Or is Brandon Ayuk, you know, benefiting from being with Kyle Shanahan? I mean, obviously last season was really, really good. But for San Francisco, right now they're like $38 million above the cap next year looking at extensions like expens. like expiring contracts with Cheverius Ward,

Dre Greenlaw, obviously they got to get Purdy done. Ayuk himself, Talanoa, who Funga, like they got so much money that they got to pay out. And that's why, like, when you consider this whole trade conversation and what would happen with Brandon Ayuk, it kind of feels like they should probably hold on to that guy and maybe look at Debo Samuel as the player to offload, even if the return wouldn't be as significant.

This is exactly what I've been saying. Since they drafted Ricky Pee, my guy, Ricky Pursall, I've been saying, like, the interesting thing about Ricky P's skill set is he kind of does a little bit of what IUC does, and he also does a little bit of what Debo does. So it gives them options and how they can construct that wide receiver room. I would be offloading Debo, though. He's on a big cap number. I think he has a balloon payment next year, right, where I think he's like 14% of the cap or whatever. I would be looking to move on from him and keep Iyuk.

I think Iyuk is more of that fundamental math changer where defenses really have to. I mean, you have to respect Debo for sure, but that's as simple as putting guys by the line of scrimmage, you know, where Ayuk, he's a, he's a three-level threat, all snap to the catch, legit route runner, all the separation data. I teased it last week with all the separation stuff we're doing. Iyuk pops in just about any way, any lens you put on to look at that data. Iyuk is at the very top of the list. So, I mean, he is an absolute monster to handle. I feel better with him moving forward. Plus, dude, you've got injury concerns with Debo.

He's shown up out of shape and overweight two camps in a row. I think the rumor was 240 pounds last year to start camp, which is, you know, Jerome Bettis size. So not great. Yeah, I'd be, I'd be looking to move Debo. But I think I think Iyuk is probably for sure worth that. I would rank him above Amon Ra St. Brown right now, I think. I think I would, I'd be more willing to give him the Amon Ra contract than I was willing Amon Ra. You said last week that you're very, think very highly of T. Higgins.

And I do, I do as well. I think T. Higgins is a really good football player. And we talked about this a little bit last week and that the situation in Cincinnati honestly doesn't make any sense because they have cap space right now. They have $23 million in cap space. Keeping in mind that is factoring in the full salary franchise tag for T. Higgins. So like that's going to come down if they get an extension done. Yeah.

They have gobs of money in 2025. They're $45 million. This is not a, we don't have money to pay T. Higgins situation for Cincinnati. It's just how they do business, which is absolutely silly to me because you feel like this is an identity piece of your operation. I have no doubt in my mind that Joe Burrow and Jemar Chase and T. Higgins is the type of big three that I can go on deep postseason runs with every single year. but for whatever reason based on the way that Cincinnati does business, we're concerned about that long term. So like this should get done.

And then the flip side of this is Cincinnati doesn't trade their players. Right. So are we living in a world where Cincinnati, you know, forces Higgins to play this year and then he eventually walks. And they like, that would be to be the ultimate doomsday scenario. But I feel the least good about this situation than the other ones that we've kind of discussed because I do think that San Francisco is going to align with us and probably, okay, Iooks our long-term play here.

We might do something with Debo. This Higgins stuff is really weird to me. There's a whole other layer to this, too, Joe, that we got to uncover, and that's, you know, we both like T. Higgins. I think it's clear their identity of the offense is passing. Joe Burrow, receivers, yada, yada. I'm terrible at adages, but I'll get to that a second. But T. Higgins is like he's a number two, though.

And so you've already laid the case that this is a limited resource environment, the NFL is. There is opportunity costs. Can you pay a wide receiver too? What T. Higgins is probably looking to get paid, which I'm assuming is more than Devante Smith or else I would think that deal might be done. I would guess he wants more, but that was exactly where my mind went. You said, who's got the expensive quarterback and the two expensive receivers? Well, that's Philadelphia.

Now, the way that they've structured those deals with void years. Like it's all very staggered and very intentional to make that work. Cincinnati's not going to play ball like that. No. And then they went and drafted Jermaine Burton too, Joe. It's like, and he's not really a slot guy. He can play in the slot a little bit, but like, did they just tell you their intention? Probably.

But to me, that's just not, that's not the way to do it. You got a player like this that means so much to your operation. I don't know if you're not in line, you're not in line, but then you then trade him, then trade him. It's hard to find receivers like Tehiggins too, especially in a league where the draft has not supplied many X type receivers, big body guys that can get out there and run routes with elite body control. That's T. Higgins. Like there's not anything he can't do. No route he can't run and be successful at. He's another one who pops on our separation data.

So I would get this down if I were them for sure. I it's it's almost like I'm and I said I was terrible with adages Joe it's like they're cutting off their nose to spite their face did I say that right I've heard that before and I'd never honestly like if I can be candid I never quite understood what people were trying to say with the cutting off the nose and the face and all this stuff because I'm not doing any of that you know my point being it's like they don't honor trade requests so teagan's requesting a trade but the same time they don't pay people so it's like this double sided stubbornness where they're not going to pay him, but they won't trade him. That doesn't hurt anybody but them. There's no pathway with those two, you know, train the thoughts that benefit the Cincinnati Bengals. And that's the part that's super weird about it to me.

Right. You would think that your approach would be what's the best, like if you're Duke Tobin, what's the best thing for the Cincinnati Bengals? Do that thing. Yep. The only thing you're doing the best thing for is Mike Brown's wallet. Yep. Like.

And principle. Right. Like the simplest explanation is always the truth. It's not the best thing for T. Higgins. It's not the best team for the actual like performance of your football team. Who does it actually benefit? Well, every arrow points right back at Mike Brown's wallet. For sure.

Doubling back on the wide receiver one two thing. It's possible that this is getting held up to because we haven't seen a team do this yet. the Eagles just did it, but they haven't played a game, you know, with the roster constructed this way. I am curious if maybe if the Eagles go on to win the Super Bowl and they have a bunch of success this year, are our teams going to fall in line and kind of try to do the same thing? Well, the other side of that is Kansas City traded away Tyree Hill and then won the next two Super Bowls. I understand that Patrick Mahomes is a very big deal there. And of course, Travis Kelsey is an elite tight end.

But they played money ball with receivers with Marquez Valdez Scantling and Cadarius Tony and Rishie Rice and had good production in year one. I would question how much of that was just scheme, right? I don't know that like Rishie Rice was out there winning routes left and right. I thought they got on the ball and he was able to turn and run quite a bit. Like they had that money ball approach. You look at what the Packers have. And some people might say that the Packers have the deepest collection of young talent, like meaningful young talent at the position at wide receiver.

and it's Christian Watson a 20-22 second-round pick, Jaden Reed, a 20-23 second-round pick, Romeo Dobbs, a 22-fourth round pick, and then Tavian Wicks, a 20-23-fifth round pick with a couple of day-two tight ends. Yep. Houston's, I mean, Houston's kind of loading up on receivers, but, like, you are seeing both sides of this for good teams.

You're seeing some good teams that are like, okay, we want all the receivers. We are seeing other teams that are like, nah, like, you can pay all the receivers. we'll just cast a wide net and we'll have wide receiver by committee i want to get into more of this moneyball approach for sure but before we do that we got to take a quick break all right joe you mentioned the buffalo bills because they're taking a really interesting approach to receiver and it's kind of counter what some of these other teams we talked about have been doing um vets in volume curtis samuel chase claypool marquez valdez scantling mac hollins yes and then they drafted a guy high

still, you know, 33rd pick in the draft. Keon Coleman, wide receiver out of Florida State. And then they have a fifth round pick from two years ago, Cleo Secure. A guy I liked way more than the draft day capital. It costs to acquire him. So I think that's a positive. But man, they have what, six guys, seven guys?

Maybe do you include Justin shorter in there? Is he done? No, I think he's got an uphill climb. Don't forget, Shakir led this team in receiving the last 12 games of the season last year. Yeah. On 50 less targets and digs got. So like the yak, the d'iq, down the field with Shakir is really good.

And I think that when you consider Buffalo, you got to factor in Dalton Kincaid. I think Dalton Kincaid is going to get 120 targets this year, at least for this football team. And so I think that they're obviously taking a different approach with Joe Brady as the offensive coordinator kind of running this power spread. And they're going to share the ball. And I think it's going to be really interesting to see how Josh Allen responds to that,

where for the last four years it's been, okay, digs has got to eat, right? like 150 targets to digs. Now it's not that, right? It's share the ball. It's, I think the entire approach for Josh Allen and how he reads the field and how he starts his progressions is going to be different. And is it going to work?

I don't know. We're going to find out. But they're definitely taking a really different approach to this. But it also kind of very much aligns with what we saw from Kansas City. Can Josh Allen be that piece, right? But I don't know if it is Josh Allen. I think it's about the defense for Buffalo. I think their defense has to show up in those big moments.

Great regular season defense, but when they play Kansas City or Cincinnati in the playoffs, they turn into a terrible defense. I think that's bigger than all of this, to be honest with you. For sure. I've beat this point home with a sledgehammer too, Joe. And like when you have a quarterback, like Josh Allen, who especially early on his career, struggled with that throw for throw accuracy. Getting a variety of guys around him that can separate, I think is such a big deal.

I look at his breakout year he had what, Steph. Diggs, John Brown, Cole Beasley, all those guys win in certain ways, but they won with separation. I'm kind of looking at Curtis Samuel, Khalil Shakir as more of those type of guys that really make him feel comfortable. And then, you know, Keon Coleman, I think has potential to be a high level separator. He's not quite there yet. But one thing he's really good at, especially comparative to like Gabe Davis, who that's the role he might be taken on, is running through space, like deep crossers, drag routes.

It's like, if you ever watched Gabe Davis on a drag route, Joe, it's, it's hilarious. He looks like a baby deer. Bro, I'm not into Gabe Davis. Like, you want to talk about like resource allocation, three years 39 million for Gabe Davis is insane to me. You know, I can find any big bodied guy with some ball skills down the field that doesn't run fast, has a limited route tree gives you nothing in terms of yak and can block well. That's not $13 million a year to me. Zero feel and zone coverage, too, by the way.

like which is crazy because the league's playing zone at like 70% clip rate right now. Which is interesting. You know, the bills face the highest, I'm pretty sure they faced the highest percentage of man coverage of any team in the NFL last year. They didn't have, you wouldn't expect to be true. But you don't have any man, you didn't have any man peters, right?

So hopefully. Kincaid will be a man beater moving forward. Shakir, for sure. Curtis Samuel, short part of the field. He reminds me a lot of Cole Beasley, but way better after the catch. Yeah.

So I'm, I'm excited to see, I'm actually excited to see Curtis Samuel in that offense. but you mentioned it now too with the Kin City cheese we mentioned it with Ammanrod there even san francisco a two degree there's a degree where you can like scheme it up for guys at a high like we've we're seeing guys get schemed open more than ever before in NFL history so at some point it does gonna it does fall in the offensive coordinator shoulders right to manufacture some production and then when you get down on the red area you need your quarterback to be the dude and that's what

mahomes does that's what Josh alan has done he needs to do it maybe what a few percentage points better Joe to get to the next level. I think it's a defense, man. I think it's a defense. Defense. Yeah. Well, when you have Josh Allen, you know, you put a defense around him, you've taken a money ball approach at wide receiver.

I'm curious to see if it works as good as it has for the chiefs. The chiefs are not going money ball anymore, though. They've. Yeah, they gave a few bucks to Hollywood Brown, and they drafted worthy in the first round. And I mean, is that comparable, but is that comparable to drafting Keon Coleman and signing Curtis Samuel. I mean, that's not that far off in terms of what the resource allocation is for those

players. It's comparable, but I'm looking at the probably the last four years. I don't know that they ever wanted to actually be a money ball approach at wide receiver. If you look at, they drafted Sky Moore in the second round. They traded a three for Cadarious Tony. They drafted Rashi Rice in the second round. They signed Valdez Scantling to a relatively big contract. They brought in Juju Smith. Schuster. Like, I feel like all those guys are kind of names. Well, Valdez, especially when he was coming from Green Bay, he was a bigger name than he is probably right now. And a lot of draft capital, like a surprising amount of draft capital for what it's yielded, now worthy in the first round.

It seems like, though, they've definitely gotten sick of having to, you know, scratch and claw every single drive. Because that's what it's been in Kansas City the last couple of years. Well, yeah, and their defense is so situationally good as well. Yeah. Like, I think that's such an important layer. And there, I mean, there's been some real blunders on specialty. teams on the other side of it for Kansas City that's been very helpful for them in their last two Super Bowl wins, if we're being honest. Like, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's, it is the

players like, but it's the situational execution that's just as important. I mean, if Aaron Sipross doesn't line drive that punt, because Kansas City beat Philadelphia, we, of course, you saw the special teams blunders this past year against San Francisco. Go back to the, the Bengals AFC championship game two years ago. Can't see the way to win that game without the special teams blunders of Cincinnati. So like, right. I don't know, you know, it's, um, that's why a lot of my team building philosophy in the NFL is be as good as you can for as long as you can and hope to get lucky. Like there's, there's an element of luck that we're uncomfortable discussing. That's absolutely true for every single team that's ever won the Super Bowl. And you got to be on the right

side. True. All right. So to tie a bow on the wide receiver conversation, we are very pro paying the top dudes what they're worth. I think you would agree with that, right? Supporting his quarterback, getting in those top guys, they're valuable. There is a breaking point, though, where if you don't have one, don't try to cobble it together and probably try that money ball approach. I think that's the would do it. We've seen teams have more success doing that than we've ever seen them have

paying two receivers. And we'll find out this year what that's all about. A lot of good case studies out there, Brett Whitefield. Now we're going to shift our conversation to the NFC West. We spent last week really diving into the AFC North this time around. We're going to focus in on the NFC West. And Brett, I'd like to kind of look at these teams one at a time through the order that they finished. And so your reigning NFC West champion is the San Francisco 49ers, went to the Super Bowl,

and certainly had a good chance to win it. If they maybe took advantage more of their early game opportunities, maybe that would have been a different situation. But you look at San Francisco and a lot, like the defensive coaching staff, that's going to be a big storyline here. But as we start with the offense, what's the biggest thing that stands out to you about this 49ers offense and the way it's constructed going into 2024? I mean, they have, they have prioritized skill players probably in spite of needing offensive line help that they, it's crazy. I mean, they are loaded to the gills with skill players. their offensive line leaves a little bit to be desired. So I think Shanahan's really trusting his ability to scheme it up.

You know, one of these teams that they're going to scheme it up. They got dudes, but they're also able to scheme it up with dudes. So, I mean, shoot, the depth target receiver is insane, dude. Brandon Nyuk, Debo Samuel, Ricky Pearson, Piersol, Jacob Cowing, a fourth round pick to be your four. You know, Joanne. I forget about Joanne Jennings, yeah. The big slot.

He definitely has an effective role. And George Kittle, Christian McCaffrey. I mean, it's insane. They are absolutely loaded with pass catchers through and through. It's wild. Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the offensive line because this is where my mind goes. We know that they have skill players. They have them in waves.

There's no question about it. But I thought when I watch that Super Bowl, I felt like they were overmatched by Kansas City's defensive line talent. Even Trent Williams didn't play well in that game. Right. And so I think you, obviously, you have an aging star in Trent Williams, but, man, I don't know about the rest of this group up front. We're really going to roll back Colton McEvich back out there, right tackle after last year and the penalties and all the pressures he gave up.

I thought that was rolling the dice. Jake Brenda, at center leaves something to be desired for me. I think Aaron Banks can be a serviceable starter at left guard if he has better players around him. And they're lucky that they caught lightning in a bottle and John Feliciano, who's filled in a bunch of spots for them on that interior offensive line, but he's not a long-term solution. Now, I like Dominic Pune, puny out of Kansas, a player that they drafted. I think in time can be an answer for them. but I'm a little bit concerned running back this offensive line because I think for a lot of games, it's going to be fine.

Scheme, angles, it's all going to work. But when you got to go up against some big boys, which is part of the deal, man, like there's some really good front sevens out there. Like I just worry about what I saw against Kansas City and then being able to overmatch them and kind of take away from your ability to run the football, which is critical for this offense to go. And, you know, you force Brock Purdy to rely more in his physical. physical gifts, which quite frankly are lacking. So, yeah, I'm concerned about this offensive line, and I'm a little surprised they didn't do more here.

Yeah, you mentioned Feliciano. I think sometimes with offensive line play, like you're, you know, you want average or better at every spot. That's how you build a really good offensive line. And I don't have a problem with Feliciano if he's like your fifth best offensive lineman. He's probably their second best offensive lineman. That to me is a problem. He's not a needle mover. He's just a solid guy.

He's not going to have a lot of MAs. But he can, I mean, we've seen it. We've seen him struggle with big athletic defensive tackles. So I don't know. When you're playing, I mean, they have the highest stakes of any team in NFC this year. Like they need to win a Super Bowl. This has been a clock that's been ticking for a while. They play against Dallas, Philly, Detroit.

All these teams have real beefy interior defensive lines now. I mean, it's, I don't know. I don't know. The offensive line could be a big problem. Yeah. Again, maybe not all the time. But in some of those big showcase games, I do find myself a little bit worried about it. On the defensive side of the football, Kyle Shanahan couldn't wait to fire Steve Wilkes, right? He had to get that done, calling those timeouts in the Super Bowl because he hated the way they were aligning. You knew there was a problem there.

Fascinating for me here with this defense is kind of this defensive line. I thought that they did a good job bringing in Leonard Floyd to help with some of the issues that they've had opposite of Nick Bosa. You know, I think that Leonard Floyd has been as consistent of a sack producer in the NFL. And I'm not sure you want him playing 800 snaps, but I think 500 snaps and really a lot of those being on passing downs, you can get a lot out of that. You bring in Malik Collins, kind of a modest trade there. You swap out Eric Armstead. I'm not sure you get better, but you get some rush ability there. on Hargraves, a good player.

But I don't like the depth here, man, there's defensive line. I feel like they can like, yeah, what do you like about the depth here? Are you into like Yeter Gross Motos and Kevin Givens and Jordan Elliott? Because I'm definitely not. I'm not, but when you see, it's, I mean, compared to some other teams in the NFL, Joe, there's teams that don't have anything in depth.

And they drafted Drake Jackson in the second round a couple years ago. I'm assuming at some point they're expecting. him to play. Gross Motos as a fourth edge rusher seems okay. That seems okay. Jordan Elliott as a backup detackle seems okay. Maybe not ideal, but okay. My bigger issue with the D-line, Joe, is they don't have a single body that can stop the run still. Right. Well, dude, that was definitely one of my points I was hoping to get to. I'm glad that you're aligned on that. like, were you going to run the ball at this, at this front and dare them to stop you? Because I feel like, like there's some good going on in this secondary.

Chevarious Ward, like low key, nice player. When he's healthy, he's awesome. Yeah. Diomador Lenore, like coming along in the slot, he's a nice player. I like this kind of mix. They drafted Renardo Green, I think between Renardo Green, Isaac Yadam, yet Rock, Yassin, Ambray, Thomas. You're going to be fine at that other corner spot.

Love what you have in Hufanga. Jair Brown, I think, you know, is a complimentary player there. And Malik Mastaf is a young safety, a draft pick that I really like. But Red Warner's going to have to navigate through a lot of traffic to make some tackles here against the run, man, with this with this collection talent in front of them. It's crazy they still have ignored it, though. This has been a problem for a while. When the Eagles beat the 49ers a couple years ago in the playoffs, it was, I mean, A-GAP runs is what did them in.

I mean, it was crazy. they still have completely abandoned this idea that we're going to prioritize stopping the run. And again, playing in the conference you play in with Detroit, who runs the ball as well as they do, Philadelphia, these are your main competitors. Rams. Rams. Like they are going to, I mean, that's just what they do. So I don't, I don't know why they keep ignoring this. I'm going to push back a little on the secondary, Joe.

I like Ward. I don't think who Fongo is a great coverage player. I think he's a really good playmaker. down by the in the box line of scrimmage um jayr brown i thought played really poorly as a rookie and then that right cornerbacks about now if renardo green comes in and turns into a dude that's great i mean they draft them about where i thought they should have however rookie cornerbacks typically suck and so they're counting on that dude for 900 snaps that's scary ambrie thomas and isaac yottom got absolutely nuked last year against any team that could pass protect

whether it was the Minnesota Vikings or the Detroit Lions, any team, I think even Jacksonville lit them up. You can pass protect against the 49ers. That cornerback spot and those safeties aren't great in coverage. Again, I love who Fonga as a player. I don't want to think I'm knocking him. I just don't think his skills are coverage oriented. It's being near the line of scrimmage, making tackles,

defending the run, shooting gaps as a blitzer. He's really good at that stuff. Maybe coverage in the short part of the field, covering a tight end, but they had a lot of wide open middle of the field opportunities last year that they gave up. That's to me, it's just as concerning as their run defense and with the defensive line. Well, I mean, they need Jair Brown to be what they paid them to drafted them to be, right? Is the middle of field safety that unlocks Tofanga's ability to play low.

And you expect this team to play a lot of cover three, a lot of quarters coverage to kind of help with that. But it seems like we had this conversation about the 49ers and maybe we're a little bit more concerned about them by the end of it, some of the elements of this team, whether it's all the line depth or stopping the run or coverage talent. We like their skill players on offense. Yeah, I feel like I've had the same concerns now for a couple years and they just keep winning despite that. They go through these really awful stretches in season. Gosh, I think 2022, then they lose four games in a row at one point or five games in a row. Usually a lot of its injury, they pile up. injuries. San Francisco is always banged up, right? Part of their deal. Yep. And then last year,

I mean, shoot, they were, let's be honest, they should not have made it to the Super Bowl. Detroit had a couple bouncing, weird bouncing balls later. And that's a totally different game. Element of luck. Good thing I mentioned that second ago, right? Right. Definitely a thing. Definitely a thing. All right. We're going to get into the Los Angeles Rams number two in the NFC West here in just a moment. So, be sure to stick with us. All right, Brett Whitefield, Los Angeles, Rams. Talk about a team with some turnover. A lot of that on the defensive side of the football, losing Rahim Morris, Aaron Donald no longer in the mix here. We started on the offensive side

of the football with San Francisco. Let's start on the defensive side of the ball with the L.A. Rams, where I think there's a lot to dive into. What's kind of your overarching theme when you think about this Rams defense entering 2024? So they're trying to replace Aaron Donald with two people. They went and drafted, you know, Jared Verse and Braden Fisk, which I think is smart. You can't replace Aaron Donald with one person. There's no Aaron Donald. I think Kobe Turner was a good find. I like, in theory, I like what they're doing on the D-line. I think they have a lot of legitimate opportunity or potential, I should say, to develop a really good pass rush. But it is so young. I mean, the youth on this D-line. I mean, it's what, Kobe Turner, Jared Verse, Braden

Fisk, who's the other pass rusher they drafted recently? Byron Young. Byron Young, all first or second year guys. And that's going to be when teams are in passing down, those will be the four dudes on the field. And they're all first or second year guys. And so I just, I'm a little concerned. I know it's funny because Fisk versus and Kobe Turner were all fifth year seniors. Right.

So they're all older guys. So they do have a little bit more experience than the average rookie or second year player. However, I'm just, I don't know, man. I love the idea. I'm just not sure it's all going to click this year. If it does, then that's scary. I think they're competitive, like super competitive. But I don't know.

What do you think about that? Yeah, I think it's a good call out. A lot of youth with the front and it's got to come together. There's no doubt about it. Again, I like in theory a lot of the makeup here, but there's a lot that we have to learn about how good these players are going to be. Certainly, you like what Kobe Turner and Byron Young gave you as rookies. How do they take that step and how good are these other guys in year one?

I would also look at this group and maybe extend some of the questions that we had about how firm they're going to be against the run like we did for San Francisco to this group. I think Bobby Brown gives you some of that as a nose, like, but as a rotational type player. I think they would, Michael Hoyt is probably a player. They should play more like in the B gaps, maybe four-eye type situation as opposed to playing him as a true outside guy to give yourself some more firmness. Jared Verst gives you some power, but like, I'm not. seeing a lot of girthy, you know,

high anchor guys here. Michael Hoyt, dude, the way they used him last year was same. It was six, four, three, ten. He's like, what are we doing here? And dropping them into coverage, 18 snaps a game, 15 to 20 snaps a game.

What are we, I mean, the lions found that exploit in their playoff game and just keep hitting that button. Boom, boom. We gave up eight catches in that game. Yeah, that's, that's unsurious to me. Speaking of unsurious, we're really going to roll with Christian Roseboom again next to Ernest Jones. I like Ernest Jones.

But Christian Rosen is an unsurious player to me. Every time I watch the Rams, he seems like an absolute liability to me. I can't believe that they're going to go into this season again with him, potentially as a starter. Is there any chance Troy Reader takes that spot? I think he should. I think he should. He's been like a special teamer for his career.

Did he start as a rookie, though? And then they moved them out of the starting lineup? I don't. I feel like Reader started as a rookie because of injuries or something. And then I end up losing. his spot to, I think, Ernest Jones, actually, the next year. And then Reader's been special teams only ever since. Yeah, he played a lot more snaps earlier in his career than he has, as of late. But I would,

he's, at least 29 years old. Like, I don't, there's no ceiling there. I can't believe we haven't done more here for, for this position, to be honest with you. The, the secondary is really fascinating to me as well, um, where I think you've, you've brought in a lot of veteran players, bringing back of Darius Williams, signing Cameron Curl. You have Russ Easton, Quentin Lake is returning guys. Quentin Lake looking pretty decent in the slot. I think Trinavius White is a big gamble for them. And I think the world of Tradavius White,

I think from his rookie season in 2017, until 2021, I thought he was as good as a corner as the league had to offer. But my goodness, the last three years have just been really tough. He had the ACL injury. on Thanksgiving back in 2021. And that took him a while to come back from. And not that it was like a healing issue, but we knew mentally there was some hurdles that he had to overcome.

And he has been very candid about that. And you feel like a year and a half later, he starts to kind of like look like Trey White again. Then in week four last year, he pops his Achilles. And so he's right back in this spot as a corner that's pushing 30 years old that in the last three years has an ACL tear that was significant to come back from. And now we haven't seen them play since the Achilles. and I know that he went to the Rams because they have a good history with the Achilles,

but they paid this guy like north of $10 million to come in and be an answer for them. And is he going to be ready in week one? What does he look like? I don't think that they're in a position to not get what they think Trey White can be. I hope he's awesome. I think the world of Tredavius White. But I'm concerned over the last three years what he's going to look like this year for the Los Angeles Rams. Yeah, you're spot on here.

And when you look at the unit as a whole too, Darius Williams, he's not a one. He's good player. Serviceable player, I should say, better than serviceable player. I think he's a good player. He's a little undersized, doesn't hold up well against bigger receivers. So you're going to count on Trey White to do a lot of that dirty work, and we just don't know if he's there. I will say this, though, the scheme in L.A., they play just ridiculous, off, saggy zone coverage. They rely on instincts.

It truly is the most Ben don't break defense in the entire NFL. I think that's where Trey White really succeeds. or has had his success. Obviously, Buffalo kind of plays some similar stuff, especially in that range of years you gave us with Trey White hitting the peak there. That's a lot of what they were doing. So I like the scheme and its ability to protect corners. You know, I think they got a lot done with a bad corner situation last year also. So, I mean, I'm feeling, I feel like maybe they can hide it a little bit with the scheme. What Shula took over, right? Is the D.C.?

Chris Shula, yeah. Yeah. So that's continuity. You know, he's probably not going to change the lingo and the nomenclature around too much. It's going to be a lot of the same stuff. So Darius Williams is familiar with that scheme already. And then Trey White, you know, having played in Buffalo, it's a similar scheme. So I think from that standpoint, it could work out, but we just haven't seen him play in the Achilles yet. And that's back-to-back, just catastrophic injuries for him.

Shifting gears to the offensive side of the football for the Los Angeles Rams. And I think the story, I know everyone wants to talk about Puka and Cooper Cup. and Kairn Williams and how good he was last season. I hear you on that. We'll get to it. How about this offensive line, man? I love how you've had some players emerge, like Alaric Jackson becoming a thing at left tackle.

Who had that? If you had that down, collect your prize, please. But he's the thing. He had a good season at left tackle. Rob Havenstein's been a stalwart for them at right tackle. But now this middle three where Steve Avila, after a great rookie season kicks over to center, you gave up like nothing for Kevin Dotson in a trade.

He winds up being a star right guard for you. And then you signed Jonah Jackson from Detroit to make this middle interior really, really formidable with a run game that really popped last year with Kyron Williams. Unfortunately, we heard about his foot injury and what maybe he'll be a little bit slow to start the year. But Blake Corum as a nice hedge there to protect you a little bit, but also give you some more. And I respect that pick.

You know, I think originally when they pick Blake Corum, I'm like, what are we doing here? We got Kyron Williams. Well, I think, first of all, we didn't, I didn't know about the foot deal with Kairn Williams, but also this position has been such a problem for you over the last few years the running back deal. Like, why not give yourself a nice pair of backs because it is so important operationally to what you want to be as an offense? Yeah, doubling down too on the, the, the Kiron stuff.

Like, he's been hurt more than he's been healthy. And his going back to his collegiate career into the NFL, like, like he's dealt with injuries a lot. He's an undersized back and he runs like a bigger back. So I think that's going to yield injuries a lot. So getting quorum in the mix, I think was smart for them, whether the plan was to play him right away or not. I don't think it matters.

I think it's protection. There's similar players in a lot of ways. I think quorum's like a more gifted version of Kyron. Kyron obviously has the NFL success he can stand on versus Corum. But, man, I really like that draft pick, actually. I think it made a lot of sense. The O line, though, it came together in a big way. they averaged 1.82 yards before contact per carry last year, which ranked those top 10 in the league.

Not expect, no one expected that. Alaric Jackson, you mentioned him. I think the bigger thing that stands out to me about him is they didn't do anything to address tackle. That shows you that they believe that wasn't a one year wonder type thing. That was like, hey, this is our guy. We're doing it again. So, and what it does, it gives them a decent swing tackle in Joe Nobom, who, you know, probably. isn't starting caliber at this point,

but he is a guy you can play left or right tackle if Havenstein or Lerick Jackson get hurt. So I like the depth on the O line. They drafted Bo Limmer also. I liked him on Arkansas, yeah. Yeah, there's a world. I could see him starting at center and Steve Avila move into a guard spot

if they needed him to. Steve Avila can absolutely play guard. So like they have depth, they have options. They're insulated from injuries in multiple ways. So I do really like the O line. probably more than most, actually. I think this is a really solid unit. I would love to defer to you to start the conversation on these wide receivers

because I know you got a lot of takes on receivers and what Pookin did is a rookie and Cooper Cup and, you know, like it feels like whenever he's healthy, he's unbelievably productive. But like I was a little bit surprised that Cooper Cup only has two seasons over a thousand yards in the NFL to this point. So like where are you out with this receiver core? And like for as good as Puka was, going back to. the conversation we had at the beginning of the podcast.

Like, is he a guy that's good because of Sean McVeigh in the scheme here? Or is Pooka Nakua the type of guy that's going to get for 1,500 yards on any team in the league? I think Pooka Naku is good enough to be the 1,500 yard guy on any given team in the league. One of the most sticky metrics for wide receivers, Joe, is yards per route run.

Obviously, Puka, in aggregate, smashed. And that's that last year. I'm trying to, yeah, 2.75, which is like, ungodly for a rookie that is absolutely ridiculous but then we can split that and look at zone versus man splits zone splits is where you could see some inflated numbers because of scheming it up right a lot of those underneath throws which he got some of that stuff some screen some shallows get him in the ball in space let him let him go to work because he runs angry when he's got the ball his hands runs with his hair on fire but against man he was top five in yards throughout running

man coverage last year so not only is he good on those scheme stuff he can go out there and beat man coverage. He did it at a really high level. And ultimately, his ability, his play elevates the ceiling of the offense because now Cooper Cup doesn't have to be targeted 170 times. He's had trouble staying healthy his entire career. If we can take some of the load off of Cooper Cup and keep him healthy for an entire season, that really elevates the offense come playoff time.

Don't sleep on to Marcus Robinson either, Joe. This dude. They wanted him back. They gave him a decent contract to come back. This dude can play a little bit. He can play a little bit. I think the Chiefs missed him when he left. And he's obviously been bouncing around a little bit trying to find a home.

But he found one. He's right at like two yards per route run last year. And down the stretch, it was even higher. I mean, he's a very good wide receiver three. Huge fine for them, in my opinion. Are you saying as a dynasty owner of Cooper Cup, I should put him on the trade block? Because of DeMarcus Robinson or because of lower. Generally, the whole thing.

The whole thing here. If you can still get good value for him, I would trade him for sure. Yeah, because he's old. There's been rumors about some long-term condition he might have that could prevent him from ever being the guy he was. But nothing confirmed publicly or anything. So I don't know. But yeah, I would absolutely trade him. I'm thinking about it.

I might do that when we get done recording. See what I can get out there on the market. Seattle Seahawks, Brett Whitefield. New coaching staff, Mike McDonald, now the head coach, defense. oriented, unbelievable last year with the Baltimore Ravens. I'm excited about a lot of the defensive talent that they have. But I think what's so fascinating about Seattle entering this year is Ryan Grubb as the offensive coordinator and had two amazing seasons last

the last couple of years at Washington, the Washington Huskies. Yeah, but this is a career college coach. This guy's first day in an NFL building is as the offensive coordinator as a Seattle Seahawks. And I think there's a lot that you can look at from that Washington an offense over the last few years and compare it to the way that it was under Jimmy Lake and it was very conservative and not fun at all. And, you know, like Michael Panics, you think about him at Indiana compared to what he's been at Washington. Like, there's a good

story to tell here. And I think maybe you can look at Gino Smith and feel pretty good about maybe him in that style of offense down the field passing game. But it's certainly an interesting dynamic where you see like, when you see like the hot shot defensive coordinator, get a head coaching job, like they got to nail the OC hire or the hot shot offensive coordinator, they got to nail the DC hire. This is an interesting choice for Mike McDonald, who you feel like has to nail the offensive coordinator hire and he's hiring a guy that's never never coached in the NFL before.

I love the Mike McDonald defense. Love it. So I think it made a lot of sense for him to bring in a guy that was going to be more sympathico with the way the NFL is gone. offensive coordinator and Ryan Grubb. So the Seahawks have run 12 personnel more than like any other team the last five years. It's pretty insane. They have not diverted off that.

That is what they do. They've got three pretty good receivers. So bringing in Ryan Grubb who's going to play 11 personnel. Yeah. Dang near every snap is awesome. I think it's great for this, you know, the prospects of this offense. I think it raises the ceiling a little bit more. And they were already pretty good.

The only thing that really stands out to me is, you know, Mike McDonald and Ryan Grubb was basically their entire offseason. They didn't do anything else. They had a draft. They drafted some guys, but like no free agents really, right? Jerome Baker, I think, was really the only notable free agents. So they actually lost more than they gained, I think, in free agency. And so they're pretty much running it back with the same group of guys as last year,

just new, new scheme, new coaching. Yeah, they lost their entire interior offensive line as well, right? It's been gutted replaced by Lakin Tomlinson at left guard. Then Olu Olu-A-Timi, who was a mid-round pick last year, gets a chance to step in and start at center. And then I'm guessing we'll have a pretty good camp battle between Christian Haynes and Anthony Bradford for the right tackle or the right guard spot. Like what Charles Cross is developing into a left tackle.

Right tackle is kind of interesting with Abe Lucas, strong rookie season. Then he had the shoulder deal coming out of the rookie season. And then last year he was banged up all year, knee thing. And then he had surgery after the season. they bring in George Fant. It's kind of a hedge there. I'm a little bit concerned about that right tackle spot.

One of the things I want to get into with the Seattle offense with you is Ken Walker. And I'm sure you have some fun date on him because I think there's a lot of narratives out there about Ken Walker and the feaster famine nature of him as a runner where he rips off some crazy explosive runs. But for every explosive run, there's a bunch of negative runs that don't go well. and you feel like maybe it's decision-making oriented as to why they haven't gone well. What can you tell us about Ken Walker? He might be legally blind. I mean, that's the summary of what you just said, like the feaster famine nature of it.

He does bounce it like unnecessarily a lot. You know, one of the things we chart with the run concepts is like the point of attack on every play. And whether that point of attack changed because it was forced to change or because he changed it voluntarily. Well, Kenneth Walker's changing that point of attack voluntarily a lot. It speaks to him wanting to be this big play merchant, but also I do think he has poor vision. That goes back to Michigan State as well. You saw that on tape a lot. But man, you're not kidding.

He has a stuff rate of 48%. 48% of his carriers go for nothing. On the flip side of that is explosive run rate is relatively high. I think it's over 7%. So, I mean, he's absolutely feaster famine. It was a little bit less Feaster Famine this past season than his rookie year. His rookie year, I think his explosive run rate was like over 10% and that stuff rate was like in the 50s, which is crazy. But he's a fun player to watch.

I do wonder if the scheme will help him, right? Because you're going to play a lot of more 11 personnel. Ryan Grubb notoriously ran that super spread in Washington. It was very similar to the way the Tennessee volunteers would align in their receivers where. outside the numbers. Yeah, you're pinning multiple guys outside the numbers. Yeah. Obviously, the numbers in the NFL aren't quite as wide as college,

but that could give Walker an opportunity to run against lighter boxes a little bit more, which in theory aids the vision, right? Not as much congestion and traffic to fight through to find your hole. I think that could all help. The interior offensive line, though, man, I mean, that's, they were bad last year. I think they were bottom 10 in yards before contact per carry at 1.4.1. So, you know, swapping those three guys out for a new three could be awesome.

It could also make that even worse because there's no continuity there. I don't know. I'm a little concerned about that aspect of it. Yeah, you talked a lot about the multiple tight end usage of Seattle. And they've really kind of turned over this tight end room outside of no offense. They bring him back, but no Colby Parkinson, no Will Disley. And welcome to the equation, Farrow Brown and A.J. Parner.

You could tell that there's not going to be the same emphasis on tight end. light and depth and stylistically how they're going to run their offense based on that alone, of course, and what we know about Ryan Grubb. Gino Smith, are you in? Are you out? Where are you with Gino Smith? Man, that's a tough question. Gino's probably a little better than he gets credit for. But like when I think about quarterback play, Joe, I think about, I trying to separate everyone

into buckets, like here's a guy you can win because of. That would be your Mahomes, you know, maybe your Allen. Lamar, then here are guys, a group of guys that you can win, you can win with them with the right circumstances. And then, so I'm trying to figure out if I would put Gino in that bucket or not. And I think he probably just misses it for me. I'm not sure he's a guy you can win with. And by win, I mean be Super Bowl competitors, not fringe playoff teams. I'm talking. 8, 9, 10 wins, like congrats. Yeah, yeah. I'm not, we know Gino can do that. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking like truly get 12, 13 wins, compete in the playoffs, win a

of playoff games, maybe get to the Super Bowl. I don't think we're there with Gino. I think as good as the circumstances could be around him, I'm just not sure he's going to get us there. Yeah, I worry, situational stuff with him, red zone, not great. I think he's exactly, you want to win eight, nine or ten games. All right, Gino Smith's your guy.

But I'd be actively looking to maybe upgrade that if I were Seattle. When they brought him in, I think they had the right idea. Bridge quarterback. Yeah. It'll be a bridge. They didn't give him like a ton of money, but then they haven't really done anything to, to transit.

They haven't given him someone to transition to. Like there's no. And I think somehow it's not that guy, right? Like he's probably another guy like Gino, where eventually maybe he's the bridge that everyone hires to play a year or two. You know, so I'm surprised. They've been in a position to get a quarterback two years in a row and just really

haven't done it. So defensively, Mike McDonald, tons of success. And he's got a lot to work with on this front. I really like Boy A. Mafé and what he showed last year, nine sacks, over 800 snaps played. He looks like a good young player to me. Euchenna and Wosu coming back at the pectoral injury, cost him 11 games last year. I think that's going to be a nice boost. Derell Taylor as a subrusher, Derek Hall, who was a second round pick two years ago.

him in year two, what does he look like? And what's exciting about all these players is you feel like so many guys in Baltimore had the best season of their career under Mike McDonald. And so I'm excited to see how he can impact this group. Then you go to the interior. Leonard Williams, they brought back, who's a stud, Draymont Jones. I'm not the biggest Draymont Jones fan, but I think as like a penetration gap shooter, he can give you something.

Byron Murphy as a draft pick, Geron Reed, John Hankins, Cam Young, like, you're super deep with this front. And so like I was kind of waiting for this moment because I knew that when you were talking about San Francisco, like we got into the depth. This, this to me is legitimate depth when it comes to a defensive line. This is insane depth. Like they've got two units. I mean, you could roll out a starting group and then a backup group that's almost as good. What I really like about, I like this unit before the Mike McDaniel hire and most of these guys are holdovers minus.

Yeah, I think they all are actually, right? they're all coming back but what Mike McDonald does so what he did at Michigan what he did at Baltimore is he he schemes up pressure at a really high level but he also creates the illusion of pressure at a really high level which is almost just as effective if a quarterback perceives that he's under pressure and he's got dudes that are interchangeable parts like I know you you just said what you said about draymond Jones you don't love him but as a gap shooter as a guy you can align in weird weird arrangements with guys, you know, in two-point stances around him, forcing offensive linemen to guess where the pressure's coming from.

He's perfect for a scheme like that. Boy, Mauff, I mean, you already went through the list. Even Mike Morris coming from the Michigan scheme now fits really well with Mike McDonald's doing here. I think he's going to be able to scheme up pressure at a super high level. Like, I'm really excited to see what he does. Byron Murphy, as their three, the third D tackle right now is insane. I mean, you'd think eventually he starts.

right but man they're good they're good on the d-line it's probably the strength of their team in my opinion how do you look at this secondary this back seven and think about mike mcdonald and how does that all tie together for you yeah he's going to put these guys on an island so you need physically gifted corners to to work here um i really like devon whitherspoon he was one of my favorite players in last year's draft class he played awesome as a rookie reek woolen kind of had a come back to Earth moment last year. In fact, I think he was benched at one point in the year. He does have the physical traits, so do hold up in this real blitz-happy, pressure-look-centric offense where the ball will come out quick. I think that should aid him pretty well. I think

Julian Love bringing a member from the Giants, that's huge as well, because what they were doing in New York last year was some of the most exotic coverage packages I've ever seen as a guy who charts every coverage concept on every single snap. I was blown away about some of the stuff the Giants were doing. So he has a ton of experience in an exotic defensive front look where they're going to do some wild things. So I think anchoring that secondary is a guy who's not going to bust. He's not going to have a lot of MAs.

I think that's huge for them. So I think they need help at corner probably. Maybe another body would have been nice. But ultimately, I mean, I love Evan Witherspoon. I love Julian Love. I think REEK is prime for a bounce back year. The other two spots, you know, leave a little to be desired. But the D-line should get it done.

I think for Seattle, it's all about how this comes together. New coordinators, new schemes, very different on both sides of the ball. A lot of turnover with this offensive line. Can't dig too deep of a hole early in the season. I think that's the key. Can you hit the ground running or how quickly can you find yourself as a team? That's going to be really important for Seattle this year. The last team here, the Arizona Cardinals, a fascinating team year two under Jonathan Gannon

and general manager, Monty, Austin Fort. They've certainly had a lot of assets through the draft. They've been very flexible with their decision making. But they're a fascinating team because they're one of the teams that are paying a quarterback and Kyler Murray, but the rest of the roster is still, it feels very much of the infancy stages of building it up. And so how do they, how do they maximize their, their opportunity here with Kyler Murray and build things up around him? You know, I think, I think this is that it's such an, you don't normally see this where the quarterback's paid and the rest of the roster so far behind.

That, and for that reason, people have been speculating since this regime got here that they would move on from Kyler, right? But they've made it pretty clear that this is their dude. I think the thing that stands out to me is they have so going into last year they didn't really do anything to support Kyler Murray as their starter and it seems like maybe they saw something that they liked that they were like you know what we're we are going to

move forward with this guy because they obviously made some I think some headway this year with building that offense up a little bit with Marvin Harrison Jr. and Trey Benson and tip Raymond coming in and you know they tried to fix the interior of their offensive line now. I'm not sure I like the moves they made. I like, you know, throw a hole at center a little bit, but Evan Brown is, he's better

served as a swing interior guy. I think that's a hole. But they did throw resources. They didn't have a lot of resources to throw. They did throw resources at the, at the, you know, offense here. So I think that's, uh, it's tough, man. There's still a lot to be desired here. This roster has a lot of holes.

Yeah, there's one thing they can do is run the ball a little bit. it. And I think that's going to be really critical for them, Jonah Williams as well, in addition that right tackle. They said the plan is for Paris Johnson and go to left tackle, which I really like. And so I think maximizing this run game with James Connor, who had his first thousand-yard season last year, believe it or not. And then, of course, with some much improved depth in the form of Trey-Benson, who I loved in the draft coming out of Florida State. Young James Connor. Yeah, yeah, maybe more explosive as well, I would say. Yeah. And Tray McBride's good looking young tight end. What's interesting with him is like how much more is there to unlock? He's like a very low average depth of target, very good run after catch guy.

Like can we get him as a route winner in the middle of the field as opposed to like a dump and run type tight end? But the production was absolutely there. Love what Marvin Harrison Jr. can be. Obviously we got to see it. But like the rest of this receiver core, man. like Greg Dorch, who's like sometimes flashy in the slot with Kyler, Zay Jones coming over as after he was cut from Jacksonville. We'll see what Michael Wilson can do in year two. But I still think that they're trying to figure this out on offense in terms of what they want to be. I know it's Kyler Murray, Marvin Harrison running the ball, but like it's still, it still feels like a work in progress.

I love, you mentioned trade McBride. I love him. 2.17 yards per run last year, which was, that's a really good mark for a tight end. That kind of signals

future success. I do agree, though, that A dot's got to come up. One of the things that's really interesting is when he was in college, he was a weapon like move piece. Yeah.

On the outside, playing the slot. And Arizona's doing that, but they're doing it to manufacture like screen touches with him. It's like, no, if he's,

if they're right. Yeah. Yeah, just let him run routes out there, man. Like that's where he's going to, annihilate you. So I think maybe the presence of Marvin Harrison, Jr., allows them some more freedom there because it was so bogged down. They had no threat, no vertical threat. Hollywood missed

a good part of the year. He was banged up even when he was on the field. So like they just had no vertical threat, no real target hog to help McBride. He was the target hog, right? So I think his efficiency goes way up this year, if I'm being honest with you. Obviously adding Harrison's great. I think that elevates Michael Wilson, Greg Dorch. Wilson really struggled to separate last year, Joe. Like, it was not good. For a guy who I thought was a really good route runner coming out, too, especially for his archetype.

Yikes, big yikes. He might be dead on arrival, honestly. Zay Jones comes in maybe. Some people like Michael Wilson, they might be surprised to hear you say that. And it pains me to say that because I was a huge Michael Wilson guy coming out. Love the work ethic. The, you know, the route running for his size was really special.

And then he just couldn't put it together in the pros last year. Obviously, a young player. He could come back and surprise me. But they signed Zay Jones for a reason. I'd imagine at some point this year, Zay's the starter, if not week one. And then Dorch is their kind of committed slot guy. So not the best collection of parts for Kyler Murray, but better than what he's probably had so far his career.

Even going back to the D-Hop years. So defensively head coach Jonathan Gannon, he's probably screaming at Monta Austin for it saying, give me some guys, man. Give me, give me some players here on the defensive side of the football. I just, I don't like this collection of talent. I don't. Who's your dude? Who's your dudes?

I mean, Buda Baker and Jalen Thompson at safety. Like, okay, those are your dudes, right? But like, what else do we have, man? What else do we have? Was Darius Robinson a first round player to you? No, I didn't like Darius Robinson. Was Max Melton a second round player to you? I had him as a three.

Right. So like, but yeah, I had Robinson as a two. I had Melton as a three. They jumped like a whole round early on these guys. And they're going to count on them to be dudes like in year one. Kind of scary. I'm not sure. And then in Gannon's system, what does Robinson even play?

It's not the type he usually gravitates towards Joe. Yeah, I'm trying to figure that out. It feels like, I mean, they're going to probably be a little bit of odd front here. You would think I guess with O'Jolari and Zavin Collins is playing like more as a true, true rush linebacker now, but like who's your nose? Like Justin Jones and Bilal Nichols? I mean, you're paying them like starters, but to me, they're like good depth players. Yeah, they're your, you're run defending, you know, first down only defensive tackle types.

I don't know, man. I just, they're not, I just don't think that they're ready to be. competitive with this defensive talent. I don't. I like Garrett, like Garrett Williams, uh, took a roll of the dice there, um, out of Syracuse and like had some came in in a tough situation like midseason when he was finally healthy and like played pretty good in the slot. But I mean, these are the silver liners we're looking for with this defensive talent. Like they, they got to get serious about this front seven on defense. Yeah, even Sean Murphy bunting. They brought him in to presumably be their guy at corner. Like the number one corner.

Right. I don't see it, man. And they pay. hate him pretty good too. I don't see it. I don't know. This is weird. And Gannon, Gannon's scheme, too, he plays this weird off coverage with the corners. And he's going to, they're going to give up a lot underneath. They don't really have a good pass rush. I'm just not really sure. I don't know. I like their safety combo like you mentioned. Garrett Williams could be a player eventually, maybe. And I like, uh, Dajrian Taylor Demerson was one of my favorite, uh, safety prospects out of Texas tech. Like, but, The best thing you had going for you was the safety tandem of Jalen Thompson and Buda Baker.

So congrats on getting a third safety. Yep. Would you think of Xavier Thomas, Clemson Edge? Yeah, I don't know. He's one of those guys that it felt like he was, he was the thing for so long. Like, was he in college for 15 years? I mean, I mean, dense build. I kind of like a more as like an effort run defender type player.

I don't, I don't see him as like a, as like a guy that's going to be a consistent sack player. the NFL. I the thing that's crazy about his tape is when he won he won so clean clean yes that's the word I was looking for thank you clean he won so clean it's like it makes you feel like he could be better than he is probably but there's so many plays where he just gets ran around the arc ran around the arc ran around the arc with no no really anything to show for it I mean it's it's it's crazy but those clean wins man they're they're addicting you're like oh give me some more of those but there's a reason he was drafted in the fifth round. So if Jonathan Gannon coaches out of his mind,

if BJ O'Jallari really takes a massive step forward in year two, if Zavin Collins meets the promise of being a first round pick, if somebody can compliment Kaiser White, if multiple cornerbacks emerge as sufficient level players, hey, we might have a defense in Arizona, Brett Whitefield. If all that happens. Yeah, they might win seven games. If all that happens, they might win seven, eight games.

That's impressive. So, yeah, the NFC West. Fascinating division, right? I feel like it's probably San Francisco up top. I think it's, I think it's probably finishes the same order as it did last year, to be honest with it. It's tough because as many concerns as I have with Sam Fran and their roster construction, it's like, I don't see anyone really threatening. Maybe L.A., if they get on a hot street, can stay healthy.

And some of those rookies pop on the D-line. I just don't know that I see anyone coming close to threatening San Francisco. No, they're going to win this division by three. games. Yep. I think I agree with you. And yeah, probably Sam Fran, L.A., Seattle, Arizona. I feel like Seattle's not going to be as competitive this year, just because it takes times when you're changing schemes as radically as they are, it takes a little time sometimes. I would agree. I think that puts them in the seven to nine win range. That's kind of my expectation. Yeah. I think that the Rams are eight to ten and I'm sure San Francisco goes

11 plus and then Arizona, you're picking in the top 10 most likely. Do you think Sam Fran is a legit super rule contender or is there enough concern there to your life yeah oh absolutely yeah i think they are yeah you can see injuries getting in the way of that for sure yeah that's true for any team but i think san francisco is absolutely a contending team in the nfc agreed nfc's not super strong right so yeah especially because you don't know what you're getting out of philly or dallas like if both of those teams were good like they're supposed to be and then you have what Detroit is and like who knows about the NFC South. Like, we'll get to them at some point here in the coming weeks, but like,

Green Bay would be the other team probably had throughout you that could surprise. Yeah, Green Bay. Green Bay certainly has that, but like you, you have a much longer list than the AFC of like, oh, yeah, wouldn't surprise me. Wouldn't see. Yeah, they could do it. Sure. You know, like the list goes on and on.

For here, it's like, I don't know, those are four teams that maybe are in the conversation. Yeah. We'll see about Philly and Dallas. All right, Joe, I feel acquitted. Let's get out of here. Remember folks, no matter what develops, we will always be your first read. Thanks for listening. We are out.