Fantasy Football Daily - Ranking the Top 10 NFL Defensive Front Sevens | Take Talk Podcast

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

In Take Talk 57, Steve O'Rourke (@callmesteveo7) and Chris Wecht (@ChrisWechtFF) select and debate their top-10 defensive front sevens in the NFL. Interested in playing Best Ball in 2023? There's no better place than Underdog Fantasy. Use our code FANTASYPTS to sign up for a new account at Underdog, and not only will you get a 100% deposit match up to $100... but you'll get a Fantasy Points Standard subscription for only $5! https://www.fantasypoints.com/underdog --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/fantasy-points-podcast/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's time to the Fantasy Points podcast brought to you by FantasyPoints.com. Top level fantasy football and NFL betting analysis from every perspective and angle, from numbers to the film room, with a single goal to help you score more fantasy points. Hello, everyone, and welcome into the Tate Talk podcast. My name is Stephen O'Rourke, and today we have a very special guest filling in for Brett Whitefield. It is Chris Wecht, a free group. guest and best friend of the podcast, Chris, how are you doing today? I'm doing good. I feel like I haven't actually been on to take talk for a while now.

It's just been, you guys have been going through your positional units, been busy getting ready to launch our data tool that I know Brett has mentioned plenty of times on here. It's getting close. We're just trying to make sure it's the best tool out there possible. Yeah, I know you've been grinding away on the back end with all of that stuff, making sure things are coming together nicely. I know we're doing learned. eternal beta, but things are going well. And yeah, I mean, I can't wait for everyone to see it. It's like, you can just feel the buzz within the company of just the excitement building as everything slowly comes together.

Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, it's going to be all. Yeah, and we're just trying to make sure, you know, when you, when you do what you, we think you can do with it, it doesn't totally crap out on you. So, yeah, right, right. That's what you got to do with any software product. You just got to test it. until the cows come home and make sure it works. Exactly. Well, today I know Brett and I had mentioned last week that we were going to do defensive line.

And then you and I were kind of talking last night that we got into where it's like, okay, well, if you're going to do defensive line, do you include at, like, where do you include edges? How do you rank edge guys? So that's where we kind of came to the conclusion that we're going to do the top 10 front sevens. front six, front seven of in the NFL because, you know, you're really going to do a podcast about linebackers, especially when we're a fantasy company.

I mean, how in-depth is that going to get? How interesting does that really get? Yeah, there's five linebackers, the NFL that actually matter. Exactly. And the rest are kind of there. Exactly. Other than that, it's like, you know what it's bad, but other than that, You can kind of get away with middle of the road guys.

I mean, shoot, if you asked, you know, 20 people, I don't know how many people could name more than, you know, 10 linebackers in the NFL consistently. Yep, exactly. That does, it would be interesting if you guys did down the road, like just ranking at dressers or something, some way to capture that. Because that's what I, when I was going through this,

I found myself, man, you know, this team has an awesome edge rusher, but like just not a whole lot around it and stuff like that. Right. Especially just because, I mean, getting to the quarterback is probably the second, third, most important thing in the NFL next to having a good quarterback. I mean, having a good edge rusher is probably, I mean, probably number two. I mean, I'd say even more important than having really good corners or anything like that, like defensive side of the ball. getting to the quarterback is most important. And, you know, we had to include it.

But, you know, just as important, you know, interior pressure, all that. But yeah, it just all kind of created this murky area where, like, we came to the conclusion of let's do front seven and we'll include linebackers a little bit. But, you know, it probably does end up being more that we're going to talk about the defensive lines that are there with a little bit of involvement of, you know, like there's going to be one team for sure where you're like, their linebackers. plus their front set, I'm sure for you two, or their linebackers plus their defensive line, that puts them at the top of the top, and then everybody else kind of files in from there. Yep, exactly.

Well, yeah, while we're talking about it, I mean, lead us off. Who's number one top of the list? I bet if I were a betting man, you know, if I wanted to put all my money on the line, I bet we probably have the same number one, but go ahead. Yeah, we probably don't even,

need to talk that much about this one you guys have probably talked about them a hundred times through the through the season last year it's the 49ers um is that not who you have okay yeah that's exactly who i have i mean for a second i thought you didn't no i i definitely like that was the one that i filled in number one and i filled in number 32 first because they were the i felt like the easiest things to fill in when i was going through my rankings i was like i know exactly who number one is it's the 49ers, I know exactly who number 32 is. Yeah. So Nick Bosa, obviously, is the highlight there.

Maybe the best edge rusher in the NFL, if not top two. Yeah, exactly. Eric Armstead. They bring in Javan Hargrave, who I know they had issues on Rundee, and they seem to think that this is, like, going to help their Rundee, but that is not Hargrave's game, but it is going to make their past game even more, or past rush game, even more lethal. Yeah.

And then their linebackers are also. too with Fred Warner and Drey Greenlaw. They've got depth behind the defensive line with Javon Kinlaw. Yeah. Clean and Farrell. Yeah. The newest reclamation project to come to San Francisco. Yeah.

And then, I mean, you can even see Drake Jackson emerge this year. But just like top to bottom, front to back and this is, I mean, they're a terror. That including like their defensive line coach, they, I mean, it's going to be a fun year for them. You know, it's the reason they're able, it's a big reason them and Kyle Shanhan that they're able to stay atop and stay afloat as often as they are with the rotating cast of quarterbacks that have come through there in the last, gosh,

five years at this point with, you know, going back to when they made the Super Bowl in 2018. Yep. Yeah, and they don't even have, like, their defensive backs are nothing, like no household names by any means. Like, there's a good chance a lot of people don't know. who any of them are like chartavius charvarius word is probably the most popular one and he's like you know he's an above average corner right the defense this front seven creates this defense and like

you said keeps them in games where they can win games with a guy like brock purdy at qb exactly and then after that now it gets interesting i think um who is your number two uh so i was between really two teams here and I ultimately landed on Washington. I went with Washington at number two as well. I did. Wow. It's a team, you know, it's on paper. You're like, man, how is this not lived up to what we thought it could be yet?

And it just really hasn't yet, but the players are still there. I mean, Chase Young has probably been the biggest disappointment of the group. A lot of it's because of injury. Hopefully he can get healthy and look more like the college player. that we saw him be. Jonathan Allen, Montez, Sweat, Duran Payne,

all been very good above average players. And then their linebackers are solid. I mean, Cody Barton, Jim and Davis. They lost Cole Holcomb, right,

in the off season, who is a very solid linebacker. But, you know, I think Cody Barton and Jim and Davis, David Mayo, they can hold down

the fort there. Yeah. And, you know, I consistently think that Jonathan Allen and Duran Payne don't get the accolades and the attention that they deserve because, you know, they, you know, they're really a good team all around. Like I really like Washington with the talent that they have and especially on the defensive line.

I mean, like I said, Jonathan Allen and Duran Payne both in the run game and going, getting after the passer, they're both very athletic, long, big guys that really beef up the middle. like you said, Chase Young, you know, we've all, you've seen the flashes early in his career, but it's been marred with injuries and just not being able to get on the field. But, you know, you know the talents there and you've seen it time and time again. It's just that hopefully we can get a full year of him to really see what he can bring to the table. And then Montes Sweat is another guy that I think, you know, he's very, he's a quick off the edge. He's long.

and I think he has his abilities. But another, like, it just, you know, they've been stuck in mediocrity a little bit. And so I think that that's where this team doesn't really get as much attention, especially along this front defensive line. And even, you know, like Cole Holcomb was good. And Cody Barton, I think he kind of fills right in there for him as well. So I think that they're deserving of number two, talent-wise.

And I think that just as much we need, it needs to be a little bit more consistent on the field. but I think like we said, the talent's there to do it. Yeah, they don't have much depth behind that initial defensive line rotation, which is probably the thing that would scare me the most, especially, I mean, we've kind of see it with Young Missing Time. They don't have really much. Like if those four guys aren't playing at their ceiling, this is, you know, pretty much

an average front seven, but the ceiling is there. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, I consistently say that, you know, these top tens are projections for going into this year, in my opinion. I think that this year is where hopefully it all kind of comes together for them and really they take off and we kind of see some more, you know, see that elevate to, you know, a top tier defense. All right.

Who do you have at three? Oh, this is the one that I've been kind of jockeying back and forth with. and, you know, I think I'm going to go number three with the Steelers. Okay. I had them at six, but I don't hate it. Yeah, I just looking at it, I really, like Alex Highsmith and T.J. Watt has their edge guys. Highsmith, I think, is consistently underrated. I think that he's, you know, he continues to grow, continues to show that he's a really, really solid.

edge guy and then t j wott i mean he's probably he's top four edge guy in my opinion i mean he does it in every aspect of the of the game and you know he was he should have set the nfl record for sacks and you know he was right there for it and then inside you've got cameron heyward who you know he's getting a little bit older but he still shows up you know consistently every week and ogen jovees is solid three tech, I think he does well in his position. Then they just brought in Keanu Benton to be their nose tackle, who I think is a very athletic nose tackle. He's going to be able to move really well,

both in the run game and getting after the passer. And then, you know, they brought, they also brought in Cole, Cole Holcomb from Washington, who I think is a step up from what they've had inside linebacker for, you know, the last couple of years. Yeah, the Steelers are traditionally a team that does value the linebacker position last year was probably one of the worst year.

And even this year, outside of Holcomb, it's not an awesome linebacker room. Highsmith basically plays like a pass rusher for the most part. Landon Roberts is their other starting inside linebacker. T.J. Watt is probably that other, you know, that guy that competes with Nick Bosa for Best Pass Rusher in the NFL in my eyes. He is, yeah, he's a force of nature. He does it all.

I mean, he probably drops in the cut. I mean, when you throw in his ability, in coverage, he is probably a better overall player than Nick Bosa. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think that his run defense, if you were to put it all together and include run defense, I think T.J. Watts, down in, down out a little bit more consistent than Nick Bosa is even. Yep. Yep, exactly.

Yeah, and Larry Ogun Joby is a very solid player from Cleveland that they added. It gives them a very solid defensive line, Keanu Benton, like you mentioned. And they've got decent death behind them, Montravious Adams at nosedackle, Armand Watts, Nick Herberg. These are guys that have flashed at times and, you know, aren't bad death by any means. Yeah. All right. Who's your number three?

So I put Philly at three. Might be a little bit of a homer thing. But I kept coming back to this defense led the NFL in Sacks last year. The linebackers are not great, but they weren't really last year either, and that was ultimately what I made the decision based off of. Brandon Graham is back again, an older, very, you know, old player at this point, but he plays rotational snaps. They know what they want to get out of him and don't really push him more than that.

Fletcher Cox pretty similarly, especially with them drafting Jalen Carter this year. He should not have to play a ton of snaps, keeping him fresh. Josh Lidd, I think, is really starting to break out. as one of the better pass rushers in the league. Last year, his coming out party with Derek Barnett tearing his ACL in training camp, I think, or week one, very early in the season.

Yeah. Sweat play a lot more than he probably would have otherwise. And then, like, I just, Derek Barnett will be back, who, you know, never has lived up to the first round draft capital, but still a solid player, nonetheless. Nonetheless, we hope we see steps forward from Jordan Davis, hopefully being able to really lock down

that interior of their defensive line, and then like I said, they draft Jaylen Carter, who is probably from day one their best interior defensive linemen. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree with that. Milk Williams is a guy that I think is also a very solid rotational interior defensive lineman. I mean, they know what they want the strength of this defense to be, and they just continue to invest resources into it, giving them very solid death.

I didn't even mention that, you know, that what did he have 18 sacks last year? Hassam Reddick. Yeah. Edge, who is very interesting because, like, he was actually the question I brought up is how do we, how do we handle a guy like him? Is he a defensive, does he part of the D-line or is he part of linebackers? Like, what, because he definitely does play a hybrid role, but they're just so unique with how they use him in, in their pass rush stuff. They loop him around on the inside. They just keep defenses guessing or offensive.

is guessing with where Reddick's going to come from. They draft Nolan Smith. Didn't even mention that yet. Who knows how they're going to use him? He's kind of a very... Yeah, the Trey, I completely forgot about him. A unique player. And then the weak part is, like I said, the linebackers.

Currently, Nicholas Morrow and Nacobo Dean will be their starting linebackers, it looks like. Dean's been wearing the green dot helmet, so it does seem like he's going to be a three-down player for them. They're expecting him to kind of play like he did at Georgia, and we'll see if he's ready for it. Yeah, I had the Eagles at four. And, you know, honestly, if you wanted to make a case for them at two and obviously you at three, like I, you know, it's there.

There aren't many defensive lines that you can say go seven deep with guys that, you know, would probably start for a lot of other teams. And, you know, bringing in Nolan Smith, a guy who probably is going to bring just as much off the edge, you know, I think like, he plays similarly to how Hassan Reddick can play. He can come off the edge, but you can feel confident about him dropping into coverage a little bit, you know, not consistently because you want him, you know, coming off the edge more often,

but he can do that. And yeah, it's, they just go, it's just so deep. And it's, that's why they were so good last year. It's why they are going to continue to be good. It's,

you know, they see that the value is there in the defensive line. and that, hey, if you throw Fletcher Cox, Jalen Carter, Jordan Davis, Milton Williams, all in front of Nacobie Dean and Nicholas Morrow, like, hey, they don't have to worry about too much. There's not a ton of guards that are getting up to them. They get a lot of clean looks. So they don't have to be these world, they don't have to be even as good as like a Fred Warner or a Drey Greenlaw or guys like that to, you know, even have an impact. And I think that, you know, Nicopi Dean with his speed, you know,

He is a little undersized, but with his speed behind that defensive line, I think that he's going to bring a lot of value there. It's just a really solid unit. I think, you know, at least for me, why I didn't put them higher is that, you know, Hassan Reddix, they're probably their best pass rusher, you know. And I think just that not having the guy who you can say has done it for, you know, consistently for many years. And that's not necessarily Reddick's fault.

he was playing out of position in Arizona for the beginning of his career. And, you know, Arizona should have to pay for all the sins of the guys that they've put in the wrong positions over the last couple years. But, you know, it's just their depth is on is pretty much unmatched, I think. And that's what, you know, that's why they are this high. And that's why they are this good. Yeah, their second lot defensive line rotation of like Carter, Milton Williams, Derek Barnett, whatever exact Nolan Smith, with whatever exact combination is probably better than more than half the teams in the NFL's, like starting defensive line unit.

Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. I think you, if you asked fans who, if they wanted them over their current defensive line, I think you would get, you know, 17 to 18, you know, teams that would say, yeah, just bring, bring that second unit over here and we'll just drop them in and play them. Exactly. So I had Eagles number four.

You had, uh, you had the Steelers. is six, who's your number four? So I went with Buffalo here. You know, a team that is probably, you know, we thought the defensive line would be a lot better last year. Von Miller gets hurt. That's definitely a huge blow. Yeah.

With Von Miller back, though, and what they have at the rest in the front seven alone, I think is pretty good. So you got Von Miller. They just signed Leonard Floyd, who, you know, is not what he was. at one time, but, you know, still a good player. Yeah, I mean, he's what, three seasons in a row of at least nine and a half sacks. He's a valuable guy, but he's not a, you know, he's not the world beater that he was when he heard that they, everybody wanted him to be when he was drafted.

Right. They pay Ed Oliver a ridiculous contract, but that's not what we're, we're not greeting that here. He's still like a fine player on the interior. Gregory Rousseau has started to really start to come in. to form here, Dequan Jones, and then they're they're actually ones with better linebackers than A.J. Klein and Matt Milano.

Yeah, and Matt Milano's, I mean, he's probably one of the better linebackers, definitely more one of the, probably one of the more well-known, but definitely one of the better linebackers all around in past coverage and run defense in the NFL. I had the

bills, I had the bills at six. Okay. And I, you know, You know, it just, like you said, it was with the Von Miller injury last year, and obviously he's back, but you kind of saw how much he moves that pass rush for them. Yep. Because once he went out, you kind of saw the pressure start to go away for them. And that's, I think it's part of that, including the Josh Allen injury, it was part of the reason why they kind of regressed a little bit toward the end of the year. If he stays healthy, I think that they go much further in the playoffs, but he's back.

And it'll be interesting to see how he recovers from that. I don't think that it's going to, I think he's going to come back and still be the guy that he is. But it was kind of the interior that scared me off him a little bit. They do have some good depth. They have Puna 4 that they brought in, who I think is a useful player in there. But Ed Oliver is a guy that you haven't seen. it. Like in total yet, it's been there in flashes, but I think that we're all like, like we,

you know, me, you and Brett, we all talked in our chat that, you know, the contract that they gave him is like, it's definitely not based off of what he's done. If anything, that's a projection of what they're hoping he's going to be. But all around, it's a, you know, it's a good unit. And, you know, they create issues for a lot of teams. And I think that if Gregory Rousseau takes a step forward, and progresses the way it looked like he was starting to progress last year. I think that we could be talking about them even higher toward the end of next year.

Yeah, and we didn't even mention Shaq Lawson and AJ Epinessa, who are solid rotational players off the edge. Lawson in particular, obviously played more last year with Miller, hurt, and never really kind of could fill that role entirely. But, you know, he's solid pass rusher nonetheless. Yeah. And then they also have, you know,

even three deep they go to like boogie bash him who you know has shown flashes here and there yep they've made investments on the defensive line they just can't seem to fully realize them yet all right so i had them at six i number five available right yes so my number five i went with the green bay packers oh i left them out of my top ten but they were close for me yeah i um It came down to that I really like Rishon Gary, and I think that he's, you know, he's going to take another step forward. Kenny Clark in the middle has been a force for what feels like years. And they have Devandre Campbell, who I think is, you know,

one of the best inside linebackers in the NFL. He does it in the run game. He does it in the past game. You know, Preston Smith and Lucas Van S. You know, we'll see who kind of comes out of that one with, you know, starting on the other edge opposite. Rishon Gary, I think that Preston Smith, you know, you've started to see his age a little bit. But Lucas Van S is a guy, you know, they drafted really highly.

And I think that has the potential to fill in on that opposite end. Devante Wyatt, he, you know, he was the running partner of Jordan Davis at Georgia. And I think that he, you know, I think we're, we're. We're hoping to see a little bit more from him. You didn't hear from him a lot last year. And I think that hopefully with another year of development, he takes a step forward. And then I think Quay Walker is a guy that we could start to see some flashes from this year on the inside as well.

If Quay Walker takes a step, I think they have, they could compete to be, you know, the top, or the number two linebacking duo behind the 49ers. I think that he's got the speed. He's got the length. He has the know-how. I think that between the two of them, that's two really long guys in the middle. middle that could affect the game in a way that a lot of inside linebackers don't really get to. And yeah, it just came.

This was a big projection pick for me. I think that, you know, Gary needs to stay healthy and you need to see the development from like from Devante Wyatt and Quay Walker. And then I think that, you know, that's where I think that this team can excel is in this front seven. And even like all around this defense has been set up to be really, really good. for the last couple years and it just hasn't been put all together and I'm thinking that this year might be it. I think that this year might be that where all of the front seven comes together, guys stay healthy and they really take off in this respect.

Yeah, the thing that I think kept them off my list, because I really do like a lot of these players, but then I just think about the way they run their defense, that Joe Barry, their defensive coordinator, runs the defense. they just get like destroyed on the ground. And it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah, they do. They insist on keeping a ton of defensive backs on the field. Despite having like you mentioned,

a ton of solid front seven players, they just, if like, yeah, if you gave me this, the players, I feel like, yeah,

this players belong in the top 10. And I think it's just the, the thought of watching them getting crushed on the ground over and over again by pretty much any team was what, you know, makes their view of them in my eyes a little bit worse. Yeah. I think they're good players in the end.

Yeah, I mean, I completely understand that. And I didn't even mention it. Like, their depth is pretty good. They have Kingsley Ingabar behind Rishon, Gary. And like we said, the players are there. It's just a matter of, do they, can they actually put it to, can the defensive coordinator actually put it in place to have it be effective? Okay.

I went with Dallas at five. for me. This is a position group for me that is really being carried by mostly Micah Parsons and a little bit of DeMarcus Lawrence. Yeah. It just didn't feel right to me to not have Micah Parsons in my top 10 somewhere and pretty high up for that matter. Just because he's, you know, he's a top three-ish pass rusher in the NFL. He can play linebacker too, not that we ever advocate for that happening, but he can't play just traditional inside linebacker. And to Marcus Lawrence is also just still a very good pass rusher. They draft Mazzie Smith in the first round, who will hopefully help their run D as a big, you know,

nose title top player. Death behind him, like Jonathan Hankins is also not bad. Their actual linebackers, Leighton Vanderesh and Damon Clark are not bad either. They're fine players now that we kind of, I feel like have like reset expectations for Vandrash at this point in his career. Yeah. Dorrance Armstrong, Sam Williams, Dante Fowler. They've got some solid depth on the edge behind these guys.

But yeah, this is mostly a group that is being propped up by Micah Parsons and DeMarcus Lawrence to me. Yeah, I had Cowboys at 7. And, yeah, I just, like, I think Mazi Smith and Oza Diggizua, like, the interior of this defense was probably one of the biggest. issues with this, you know, like they got all the, they got the, they got the edge pressure, but it was just who's going to stop the run on the inside? And I think that they filled that gap this year, hopefully, because I think Mazzie Smith's a very athletic and very useful interior defensive linemen. And, yeah, it is carried by Micah Parsons, though. I think that

hopefully it sounds like they may move him to an edge, like full time and maybe. maybe just stop putting him off the ball completely, which I think that Dallas fans and fans of the NFL and fans of Micah Parsons will rejoice at that because, I mean, Micah Parsons off the, he's as a pass rusher, like a pass rusher alone, I think he's, yeah, he's going to be a top three, maybe even two by the end of this year. it's just it's yeah he's so good and demarcus lawrence is consistently there he's been very good the last couple years it's for me it just came down to you know the like the linebackers again latin vander esh has been okay and demone clark is is there it's just um it's the jump from

the interior defensive line is where i think you need to see it this year for them yeah imagine into a top three pass rusher at pick 12 overall, I think, in the draft. Right. When guys like Miles Garrett, Nick Bosa, Aidan Hutchinson, all the Chase Young, all these guys in the recent years, they go one or two. Yeah. That's where they're in the draft. And they fell into an Uber elite pass rusher at like pick 12.

And for, and we're not using it. Like you can't, it just doesn't get any, you don't, you don't get luckier than that. you've got to play as an edge rusher and that has to be what it is. Yeah. And I mean, just the speed that he possesses off the edge is otherworldly. I mean, not often do you get a guy that's that big, that long, that strong who can hit 4-4, bending the way he can bend to get after a quarterback. I mean, he alone changes offensive game plans. Yep.

I mean, you saw San Francisco completely. like they're if you watch they completely went away from him they didn't even want to contend with him at all when they played him and it ended up working out they ended up winning the game but like that's what he brings to the table is he completely affects offensive game plans yeah you basically have to design it or the eagles did the same thing when they played dallas they they basically ran the read option at parsons over and over and over again to force him to have to stop and make a decision you basically when you like when you go up to to face Dallas, you say, all right, what do we want to do with Parsons?

And that's, that's every offensive starting point pretty much. Yeah, exactly. And now, and like we said, now you won't even, you might not even get the 30, 30 odd percent of snaps in a game where you get to not worry about them. All you have to do is worry about them in past coverage. That's hopefully going to the wayside. And then that, you know, that completely changes things again. Yeah, exactly.

Okay. So you, I had Pittsburgh at six. Yep. You had, did you give us your six yet? I had Cowboys. Was it Cowboys at six? Yeah, I'm sorry. I might have mixed it up, but I had Cowboys at six and then I had Bills at seven.

Bills at seven. Okay. I've got the Jets at seven. Kind of a tough one for me to place, but felt like they probably belonged in the top ten. Quinn and Williams being the, you know, the leading factor there, one of the better interior defensive linemen over the past, you know, five years or however long he's been in the league now. They've got Carl Lawson on the edge, John Franklin Myers,

both solid players, not exactly household names, though. Right. Yeah, Quentin Jefferson is their other interior defensive linemen. They've got one of the better linebacker groups, probably with C.J. Mosley, Quincy Williams, both good players. And then they've got another team with the death. Germain Johnson last year was drafted in the first round. Will McDonald this year. Solomon Thomas, a former first round pick as well. Out Woods has been a good player for them. So not a team that has any, you know, it's total opposite of what we just talked about with Dallas,

where Dallas is, you know, Parsons is really pulling the rest of the unit up. But just a lot of, like, good players at each position. Yeah, I had the Jets just outside and I'm not going to, I'm not going to change it, but I'm seriously debating it. But like you said, it's just a lot of good players in good depth. And, you know, this was a what, like a top five to seven unit last year in the NFL, like overall as a defense. And I think that they could take a step forward. I mean, if Jermaine Johnson takes a step, if Will McDonald comes in and produces right away, and I think Quincy Williams is a ton of fun to watch. He lays the lumber like no other linebacker in the NFL.

I mean, consistently at least once a game, you see him absolutely flat in someone, whether it's a guard or a running back or someone. And it's just, yeah, it's a lot of young talent, a lot of like very young, very athletic talent along with defensive line. And it's, you know, hopefully if they put it all together, they're going to, I mean, they're going to stay at a top five. And with, you know, I think with Aaron Rogers at quarterback and seeing this team more often and not having to deal with talking about Zach Wilson and Mike White, for the majority of the season, I think that you're going to start to see some of these names become more talked about on the defensive side because they're going to get to, you know,

they're not going to have to be on the field for what feels like 75%. of the game because Zach Wilson is giving the ball back to the back to the other team of four to five times a game. Yeah. So it's crazy how much this defense resembles the San Francisco defense where Robert Sauer came from. Just the way it's built, they just don't have the Nick Bosa, basically. They just don't have that premier guy.

So if one of any of their edge rushers, whether it's the young guys like Jermaine Johnson and Will McDonald or the existing guys like Carl Lawson that like just take a big step forward and not that they're going to ever be Nick Bosa, but just one of the better pass rushers that I feel like you're right, we will start and then throw in what they do on offense. They start to be a better team. This defense will start to be recognized a little bit because it is so similarly built in the depth that has on the defensive line,

the linebackers they have, just so similar to San Francisco in a lot of ways. Yeah, and just, I mean, I can't overstate how effective Quinn and Williams is. Even getting after the passer, I mean, for what he can, do what he is at being an interior defensive lineman he's really a depth of getting to the passer and very like very good at what he does and so i think that with the continuing surrounding of him and who's like yeah who they're bringing in to be around him i think that you could see him take a step forward this year and see him getting even more pressure on the quarterback with

you know some more talented guys around him and you know eating up some blocks for him Yep. All right, so then, yeah, neither of us have given our number eight yet, right? Yep. All right. What do you got? So I, and this is another one where I went back and forth with some teams, but I went with the Cincinnati Bengals.

Yep. They didn't make it in my top ten, but I definitely debated them. Yeah, they're another team that, you know, they don't like, Trey Hendrickson is their, you know, quote unquote premier guy, I guess.

And he's, he's good. He's, I love what Trey Hendricksson does. And then he has Sam Hubbard across from him, who I think again is another useful guy. He's not going to blow anything out of the water, but I think that he,

he does his job very well. They have DJ Reader and BJ Hill on the inside, who I think are both really good interior defensive linemen. I think that they, you know, they don't really get after. the pass are a ton, but I think they really are good at eating up blocks. And that's why Hendrickson's so good at being able to get after the quarterback.

I think that he gets a lot of one-on-one matchups and he wins them when he, when he needs to. And then they brought in Miles Murphy this year, who I think a lot of, like, I think they're excited about. A lot of people are excited about. He's an Uber athletic guy on the outside who I think that, you know, we could see emerge right away in his rookie year. And then they have Joseph Asai on the other side. side behind Sam Hubbard. And then at linebacker, they have Logan Wilson and Jermaine Pratt, who I think are both, you know, again, they're both useful guys.

I think Logan Wilson and Jermaine Pratt, they, you know, they're decent against the run. They're decent against the pass. They just, they get their job done. And I think that's the biggest reason I put this team where they're like in the top 10 is that it's just a lot of guys that get the job done and do what they need to do. It's not, you're not getting a lot of, you're not getting a lot of run, like long runs against them. They get pressure and they, you know, force the issue and they have a good, they have a good secondary behind them. But I really think it does start with this front seven and why they're able to consistently be like a, you know, a top 13 defense.

And I think that it's even going to take another step forward. I talked about it all last year. I think a big reason they're, they are this good is that they've just been consistently there. consistently able to like work together and figure out the strengths of each other and that's you know that's why they've been where they've been and have been able to like back up what joe borough on that offense can do yeah they're you know similar to the jets in a lot of ways just a lot of guys that are good at what they do and you know just not the flashiest necessarily other than hendrickson who is definitely you know i feel like he's definitely starting to get some national recognition

DJ Reader too is definitely a guy that took a step forward last year. One of the better interior defensive linemen. He was causing some trouble for a lot of offenses last year. Yeah. Yeah, they're solid front seven. I seriously considered them getting in the top 10. They were definitely close for me as well. Yeah, I really think Miles Burphy is going to be a big addition for them.

I think that having that second, third, fourth pass rusher and being able to rotate those guys, and keep them fresh. I think that that's going to help a lot this year. And in a really loaded AFC, you're starting to see these. When I was looking at and going through my rankings, it felt like the AFC, like most of the bottom teams ended up in the NFC. And the AFC just had a lot of really good pass rushing depth. And in Cincinnati and like you said, the New York Jets are two teams that,

I think are getting it where it's like, okay, we just need to be able to keep putting bodies that are effective that can get after the passer because they just, you know, you can't take it down off. You can't let any of those quarterbacks that you're playing against have too much time back there to affect the game. And I think that Cincinnati is like I said as a team that, you know, I expect to take a step forward on the defensive line this year. Okay. I went with Kansas City as my number eight. They were my number nine. Nice. Yeah, similar. This is another, Chris Jones is just so good.

So good. Had to get him in here. He, I mean, he should be talked about in the same level as Aaron Donald in terms of interior defensive linemen, but doesn't quite seem to get that recognition that Donald gets. But he, yeah, he just destroys interior offensive lines. He can, you know, he's another guy that. like we were talking about with Parsons, opposing offenses have to plan what they want to do about Chris Jones.

Yeah. Because he will wreck havoc if you don't. Around him, it's a lot of unproven guys. George Karloftus isn't going to enter his second year. Charles O'Menehue has flashed at times, but not really ever become a super solid player. They draft Felix and Duke Euzoma this past year. Yep. They've got Derek Nottie, Danny Shelton.

A lot of guys that, you know, maybe people had high. ceilings for and haven't quite gotten there yet not necessarily that they can't um i like their linebacker group i think nick bolton is one of the better linebackers in the NFL yeah he he gets all over the place for them he he runs the defense in the middle and i think he you know he's one of the better middle linebackers in the league willie gay is another solid linebacker it's just uh it's a group headlined by Chris Jones and a lot of unproven or in Nick Bolton's case just like very good

above average players. Yeah. And I mean they have steaky good depth at linebacker because behind Willie Gay and Nick Bolton they have Tranquil and Leo Chenol who Leo Chenol I think you'll start to see him a little bit more this year and then Tranquil played well in Los Angeles.

He was, it felt like he was what kind of kept that interior of that team glued together a little bit. He made quite a few plays considering their interior was left a lot of things wanting and he kind of plugged those gaps so I think that they have really good depth at linebacker and yeah other like like you said opposite chris jones which chris jones it's crazy that you know they put him at defensive tackle when they want to and then he even lines up on the edge when they need him to like

he he's positionless across the defensive line they don't want him to line up on the edge too like he's so much better interior. And you could tell by their past two drafts, adding Carl Loftus and Dukaiusoma, they clearly want to find another guys that can play on the edge so that Chris Jones can just eat up in the middle. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, Carloptis, you saw the flashes. I think he needs to take a step.

And then Omenahue, you want to, like you said, you want to see it more consistently from him. And you're kind of hoping that experience in San Francisco shows forth here. Kansas City for them. And, you know, if you can get, if you can get Carlop to send him to many you to be like nine and a half, 10 sack guys, this defense can take a huge step because then Chris Jones is going to do what he does. You know, he's going to get his. It's, you know, it doesn't matter.

It's just can they get the production from the guys around from the guys next to him to, you know, make up for the times when Chris Jones doesn't get there. Right. Exactly. All right, so you had them at nine. I had Miami at nine. And this is the point in my top ten where I really don't feel great about the last two teams I put in. Like I even just here and talking about like Cincinnati, for example, I'm like, man, maybe I should put them in.

I really think you could put any number of teams in at this point. Yeah, Miami ahead is like the first team looking out or looking at. Yeah. So Miami is, you know, a lot of, again, a lot of guys that probably haven't quite lived up to their hype at different times, but a lot of solid players surrounding them. They trade for Bradley Trubb last year. We didn't really get to see that to, you know, hit its potential, I'd say. Right. Joining in the middle of the season and getting him involved and whatnot.

You know, Chubb was very good in Denver. I don't know if Denver ever fully unleashed. him just because of the number of bodies they had in Denver at times when he was there. So hopefully Chubb can be unleashed in Miami and really be what a lot of people thought he could be when he was drafted. Christian Wilkins, another high talent guy that maybe hasn't quite been as good as people thought he would, but still a very good player. Emmanuel Agba is a good player. I like that they brought him in. Jalen Phillips definitely started to show out last year a little bit as a pass rusher off the edge.

Yeah. David Long is a good solid inside linebacker. Jerome Baker is fine as well. That was probably one of their bigger, weaker spots last year, because Duke Riley was playing a lot of snaps for them, who was really just like a special teams guy. But yeah, a solid front seven, at least on the starting side, they don't have awesome depth, I would say,

but a solid front seven up front. Yeah, this is a team that while I had them at number 11, I think that we could be talking about them in the top seven to five. I think that they have a lot of potential. Christian Wilkins, I think he's starting to come into his own. You really saw him start to move guys and really start to affect both the pass and the run game. Jalen Phillips needs to take a step forward this year. I think that if he can evolve into what you saw flashes of last year,

and like I said, get to be like a, he has the potential to be like, 12 to 14-sac guy. And if he can be that, it, you know, it kind of changes the complexion of this defense. And then Zach Seeler is another just effective guy, a guy that, you know, kind of came out of nowhere, out of fair state. And, you know, he's been consistent. He's always there. He doesn't really make a lot of mistakes, but he doesn't really make any insane plays.

And then I really like David Long Jr. I think that he's a very, he's an effective player in the middle. And I think that he does it both in the past and the. run game and I think that that's going to help elevate this team quite a bit. It's, yeah, it's just a lot of guys that, like I said, I think they could really make a jump into the top five in the league this year if they wanted to. It's just a matter of getting the actual realization of all the talent that they have there.

Yeah. Their secondary is going to help them out a lot too and probably make them bail them out a decent amount with Jalen Ramsey and Xavier and Howard and Javon Holland. and all those guys. Yeah, yeah. It's a team that, like, I think, man, if it all comes together on this defense and on offense, Miami's could be really, really good.

Yep. Who did you have at 10? I had the Browns just because I can't not put Miles Garrett in there. I did. Like, it felt wrong to not put Miles Garrett in there. that they did shore up their interior. Their interior was horrendous last year. Teams were able to run all over them when they wanted to.

But they kind of got the pieces in there to hopefully slow it down a little bit. They brought in Delvin Tomlinson and Jordan Elliott, and they also drafted Siaki Iika. And then they also traded for Zadaria Smith, who I think is a really, really, you know, he's, he has his strengths. And they also, again, they also brought in Ovo Okaranko. This is a completely, like, really, when you look at it, it's a completely remade defensive line next to Miles Garrett. And, you know, I think we're going to see them take a step forward this year. I think that Zadarius Smith could really be effective with, you know,

with opposite Miles Garrett. I mean, he worked really well opposite Daniel Hunter. And I think that obviously Miles Garrett is a step up from Daniel Hunter. So I think you can see. him affecting the game quite a bit. And then, you know, at the linebackers, you know, it's okay. They have Jeremiah Ousacoramoa, who you saw flashes of in this rookie year. You saw flashes of last year.

I think he's a really effective, really athletic player. And like just staying healthy and being present there is going to be a big, big thing for them. And I think that he really can affect the game if he stays there. And then Anthony Walker Jr., who I think is, you know, he's okay. he's nothing crazy, nothing special, but I don't think, I don't necessarily view him as a minus there. Yeah, so Cleveland was the team. I wrote down and then crossed out, and I'm putting them back in because I don't like what I did at 10. Like you said, it doesn't feel right to not put Miles Garrett in there.

And I think that, like you said, they put enough around him to make this a potentially a decent, defensive front all the guys you mentioned garrett tomlinson zadarius smith like this should be a good front seven there there's no reason that this shouldn't be a one of a you know a top 10 front seven like you're talking about yeah yeah absolutely there their issues should be on the back end not in their front their front seven they've got pass rushers they've got uh space eaters with dalvin tomlinson taki taki is a solid you know he kind of does off the edge stuff for them but also just runs around in the coverage as well. But yeah, the Brown should be in here.

I had the Ravens at 10, and I'm mad that I let my, their linebackers make me feel like they should be in there. Because as we went through this, I was like, look at how many times we talk, we get to the linebackers of these groups, and we're like, yeah, they're not bad. They're just, they're not bad.

And it's just, that's, I mean, that's why we didn't want to do a linebacker show because it's just, they just don't matter that much. Right. And then I got to the Ravens, and they've got, you know, Roquan Smith and Patrick Queen. And I was like, they got to be in the top front seven ranking. And I'm, and, but I don't like what they have at the defensive line.

I think it's fine, but it's nothing like some of these other teams. And that, I mean, Baltimore was like in, you know, somewhat in consideration for me as well. But like you said, it was like you look at their, their defensive line with OdafeoA, Maddabouquet, Michael Pierce, is Broderick Washington. I mean, that's just a lot of okay. Like, it's not, like, where do they get consistent pressure from? Ty's Dowers is going to have to be awesome this year for them to have good pass rush. Yeah.

And that's where, like, you know, if you're looking at it, I'm going to take the pressure that Miles Garrett's going to be able to produce and the pressure that Sedaria Smith is going to be able to produce over Patrick Queen and Roquant Smith being able to. being able to, you know, because again, they're going to have to be still consistent behind what is not a great interior defensive line for them. So you're like, you're going to hear their names a lot and you're going to, you know, like that's why you generally think a linebacker is really good is because you see tackle numbers and you're like, oh my goodness, this guy had over 110 tackles. Like this guy must be great. And it's like, well, no, like this is a team where you're going to see them making a lot of plays because a lot of people are going to be able to move up to the second level

and run up to the second level against them. Yep. Yeah, they're going to have to get real interesting with their blitz packages and whatnot because they're just not going to have the pass rush otherwise. Roquan and Patrick Queen are going to have to be blitzed regularly, which they do like to do. So maybe that's why they're okay with this. But yeah, the defensive line is not awesome.

any other teams that were like outside looking in for you i'm a little surprised neither of us did put the patriots in here um with matthew judon detrick wise yeah so actually the like the next or like so like 11 12 13 were like dolphins and then i had and then patriots were in there and then the panthers were another one that i just looked at And I think has a lot of potential with Brian Burns and gross motto, Derek Brown in the middle. Their linebackers are fun. Like Frankie Lou who is a fun guy to watch. Shaq Thompson is just a good athlete and shows up consistently.

But again, it's just a lot of, like the Panthers especially is a lot of young talent that I really think that you like it's just so hard to rank some of these teams. Like this top, like, if you get into like the top 12 to 14, 13 was where I was at, like, the bottom like seven through 13, I wouldn't really criticize you if you put any of them in any of that order just because I think it's so, it's just so murky. There's a lot, there's a lot of potential. There's a lot of teams that, you know, kind of got shuffled around or have talent that hasn't really been fully realized. it's, you know, it's just going to, it'll be interesting. But I do think the Panthers were the one that like I kind of got excited about because I think I really like Brian Burns and I really like Frankie Louvo. And I think Derek Brown should take a step forward this year as well. Nice. Yeah. I think that covers it for us.

Yeah. And so I think next week I have to talk to Brett and see what we're what we're going to do for next week. We'll probably move to the offensive line. I know we'll get to quarterbacks here soon. I wouldn't be surprised if we take a look at running backs next week. But yeah, it's, you know, we're in the midst of mandatory minicamp right now, which is, again, always exciting to watch to see the overreactions. And you're starting to see a little bit of where guys are going to get, you know, where guys are going to get placed as far as first team, second team.

And so I don't know, we're getting, we're getting closer. And then again, we can't stress enough to keep an eye out for the, for more news on the data package. We're going to, I mean, day by day, we get just a little bit closer to figuring out just the little issues here and there and just the things we need to straighten out and iron out. But I just like, just everybody, the way, it's going to be worth the weight. I can't stress that enough. Yep. It's, yeah, it'll be here before you know it. All right, everyone, Chris, thanks for filling in today.

We always appreciate you coming on, and I'm sure you'll start to make more appearances here, you know, as we get closer this season with, as your workload hopefully comes down a little bit with ironing out everything with the data package. But thank you again. I'm Stephen O'Rourke. This was Chris Wecht, and we are out.

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