Fantasy Football Daily - Ranking the top 10 NFL Tight End Units | Take Talk Podcast

Episode Date: June 24, 2023

In Take Talk 58, Brett Whitefield (@BGWhitefield) and Chris Wecht (@ChrisWechtFF) select and debate their top-10 TE rooms in the NFL. Interested in playing Best Ball in 2023? There's no better place than Underdog Fantasy. Use our code FANTASYPTS to sign up for a new account at Underdog, and not only will you get a 100% deposit match up to $100... but you'll get a Fantasy Points Standard subscription for only $5! https://www.fantasypoints.com/underdog --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/fantasy-points-podcast/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At Capital One, we're more than just a credit card company. We're people just like you who believe in the power of yes. Yes to new opportunities. Yes to second chances. Yes to a fresh start. That's why we've helped over 4 million Canadians get access to a credit card. Because at Capital One, we say yes, so you don't have to hear another no. What will you do with your yes?

Get the yes you've been waiting for at Capital One.ca.ca. slash yes. Terms and conditions apply. It's time to the Fantasy Points podcast, brought to you by FantasyPoints.com. Top level fantasy football and NFL betting analysis from every perspective and angle, from numbers to the film room with a single goal to help you score more fantasy points. We are back with another episode of Take Talk. I'm your host, Brett Whitefield. And today we are joined by our usual.

replacement player that's Christopher whacked Chris what's up man I'm doing good that's a new one replacement player I don't think you've called me that one before you're the you're the sixth man of the year but you're like the third man actually but yeah I'll take it yeah so Steve Steve is gone he had some uh friend slash family stuff going on and so Chris you are sitting in his chair and today the goal or the plan is to talk about to tight ends and the top 10 tight end units in the NFL as we get closer to wrapping our unit ranking series we only have quarterbacks to go after this chris you know we should have taken quarterbacks for ourselves and left steve out of that one that's a much more fun one

much more fun than tight ends but hey tight ends saved football have you ever heard that phrase no i think is it tied tied done ty dune do you know i'm the writer i don't think i do yeah you do i'm just probably not saying his last name right but anyways he he wrote a book i believe called how tight end save football and it's it's a pretty good book but anyways um here we are about to do the the top 10 tight end rankings before we get into that though chris there is some NFL news um i want to start with the Detroit lions have released their alternate helmet and you know pre like seeing everyone's reaction i my first reaction was like these are really sweet I love them and then as the day went on I realized everyone's

really mad about these helmets and it's so funny but it got me thinking to a bigger point whether you like the helmet or not does it just seem like it's it's cool these days to hate new jerseys or new helmets or new colors or new logos I can't remember a logo release or a jersey release or a helmet release where everybody was in unison like all these are awesome at least 50% of the people utterly despise whatever is released it's like a cool fad to just hate whatever whatever is new in professional sports yeah there's definitely not a lot i'm trying to think back of one that i remember people like universally liking probably i don't know if you have to like go as far back as when the chargers brought out there like powder blue jerseys or i think people really like the cardinals

like all black helmets from last year and stuff those uniforms yeah i love the cardinals you uniforms last year. I liked the Falcons when they did a similar color scheme when they brought that out. I've loved all of that stuff. Yeah, that's the only ones I can kind of think of the people universally liked. And you're sure it was universal? Well, I'm sure there's, there's always some people that don't like stuff. Yeah, I feel like the Cardinals one was well received.

The Falcons one, I don't remember it being that well received. But yeah, I don't know. It just seems like it doesn't matter who the team is. or, you know, whether if they're a winning team or a losing team or there's like, whatever the bias is, it just doesn't matter. It seems like everyone just automatically decides to hate whatever the releases. A lot of teams, I don't know, sometimes I do wonder where teams get their designs from. Because you'll see like a random graphic designer on Twitter, Instagram, whatever platform.

They'll do like logo redesigns and like, wow, that looks really cool. And then you see what teams come out with. And sometimes I'm just like, where, why? But why this? Yeah, that is true. I mean, you definitely get, especially like if you're into like modern, you know, modern art or whatever, there's a lot of artists on Twitter and Instagram that come out with just sweet jerseys and sweet helmets. And then it's almost never that cool when it comes out. Right.

But the team still kind of live in a practical world of like, all right, well, we got to, we still have to have a brand that's like representable across every medium, you know, and I'm not sure some of those super modern, you know, logos or jersey layers. out to accomplish that, but. I love the color of the Lions Helmint. I just, yeah, the logo is not great. I know it's the old line logo, but it's, it's not great. It was their logo the last time they won a championship, so they're trying to invoke some, uh, you're trying to manifest some,

some winning spirit here in Detroit. They need it. They, they, they, what is it? Like, 30 years since they won a playoff game or something like that? 30 years since they want a playoff game and they've never been to a Super Bowl. Think they're the only team left? No, isn't there? Houston.

Houston. Well, Houston went as the Oilers, though. Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, I guess only town. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's either, I think it might be Detroit and Cleveland. Has Cleveland been to a Super Bowl?

Are we saying Ben to a Super Bowl or won a Super Bowl? Ben to a Super Bowl. Yeah, that's a shorter list. Yeah, I know Arizona was the third team for a while, but then Kurt Warner took them. Yep. Yeah. It's pretty crazy though. And they haven't won an NFL championship since 1957. So, you know, we're well over 50 years at this point.

The 50-year curse should be broken in theory. You know, Bobby Lane, when he was traded from the Lions after they won that last championship, he cursed the Lions for 50 years, said you'll never win for 50 years. Well, that 50 years is up. So we should be in winning territory here pretty soon. They've got a good shot this year to at least win a play. off game. At least one of life of game, yeah.

But all right, before we get to the tight ends, let's do one more thing. Delvin Cook and DeAndre Hopkins watch. Really no news. The only news that came out this week is that who, did Delvin say this or DeAndre, but they want to play together? Oh, I did not see that, that they want to play together. One of them said like, oh, it'd be sick if we could play together. I don't, it doesn't necessarily mean it would happen.

I don't think there's a team that works for. Yeah, but it got me thinking because I'm, I'm the, George Costanza of fantasy football. So it got me thinking, like, I just traded for Ramandre Stevenson in one of our Dino leagues, Chris. And Hopkins is obviously linked to the Patriots, the heaviest.

If they did play together, that means they would also sign Dalvin Cook, which means my trade for Ramander Stevenson would just, that would be brutal timing on my part. Like, absolutely brutal timing. That might be the one team that might do it, too. Right. Although I was checking out their cab situation,

they'd have to move a lot of money around to make that happen, presumably. Depends on how much these guys want. Yeah, they're probably not going to do it then. Yeah. Yeah, but that would be interesting. The Patriots might have a real offense this year if they did that. Do you think the Patriots are trying to win a Super Bowl this year?

Yes. It's an interesting discussion. I wonder how many teams are actually think they are trying to win the Super Bowl. Like we have to try this year. I think they're tricky. I think you're higher than you probably think it is. Yeah, I bet it is as well. Do you ever spend any time around an NFL locker room?

No. Like whether it was at camp or any. So like even really bad teams somehow have this innate ability to drink their own Kool-Aid all off-season. And by the time they get to camp, whether they won three games last year or 10, they're all convinced they're going to win the Super Bowl. It's one of the most amazing feats of mental fortitude you've ever seen in your life. life. No, for some teams that fades after like two weeks because you're like, oh, wow, we just got our ass kick twice in a row. The season's not going well. But it's true, though, when they get to training camp, like middle of training camp, they're most of the, I would say like 90% of these

teams think they have a legitimate shot to be Super Bowl contenders. And it doesn't matter how bad they were the year before. Um, so that's part, I guess that's part of the job, right? You have to, you have to think you're the best or you're going to get worked. So, well, that's, it's more like to the coach has to act like that and believe that because if he doesn't believe it his players aren't going to believe it i could see a gm and owner being like we know we're not trying to win the super bowl this year right well like the minnesota vikings are a good example the offseason moves they have made don't suggest they think they're contenders yeah but they're like her cousins and the coach probably are like yeah we're going to we're trying to win this year i mean cousins just said

the other day this is going to be the the best offense he's ever been a part of yeah but like There's no way Houston is trying to win the Super Bowl this year. Right, right. I could see Carolina maybe thinking they are trying to win, being in a bad NFC. But again, they probably shouldn't think that they were trying to win. Yeah. Arizona, no way they think they can win. They don't think they're winning.

They're not trying to win this year. That's probably, you're right, it's probably a lot less than we think it is. It's probably like five or six teams. Yeah. Something like that. Since I haven't talked to you about. this live on a pot yes where do you want delvin cook and de and jondry hopkins to go what do you think the best landing spots for them are so this i kind of thought of for the first time yesterday

there's that we saw a report i forget if it was yesterday the day before that the joe mix in contract stuff is still up in the air bengals might cut him we'll see what happens i don't really think that like that's pretty not cool of the bengals to wait this long to cut him if they were going to cut him like either tell him the money he's getting paid is too much or it isn't and move on. But if they did cut him, I would like Dalvin Cook in Cincinnati. I think that would be, that's probably the best landing spot for any free agent running back if Mixon is cut. True.

But I think Dalvin Cook and that offense would be a lot of fun. And at worst, it's going to be the same level of production that Joe Mixon was giving them. Yeah, that's. That would be sexy, man. I didn't really think about it until you just said that. I was thinking like Denver would be a nice spot. But yeah, I mean, the Cincinnati offense is very similar from a run concept standpoint to what he's used to playing with in Minnesota. Plus, you know, we know Burrow will get his backs involved in the past game.

So that's like a slam dunk from both an NFL and fantasy standpoint. I think that'd be sweet. They should probably do that regardless if they have mixing or not, to be honest. Yeah, it wouldn't be a bad thing because they probably. mixing this cap hits like 12 million they could probably get cook for less than that this year if they really wanted to yeah I think especially because Minnesota is still paying cook right a little bit uh I think so yeah yeah so that would be nice um Denver would be nice too but I kind of think Denver thinks givante is going to be okay soonish for them whether that is actually true or not or like he's productive

or not is a different question but their actions seem like they think he's going to be fine Yeah. There's also the deep internet rumors that Peyton's just waiting for the Saints to cut Kamara, which, I mean, is, it's a pretty plausible scenario, actually. I mean, I don't think Kamara is like a lock to not get suspended by any means. And if you get suspended, the Saints might look to move on because they have a pretty solid backfield other than Kamara now with Kendra Miller there and Jamal Williams. And they signed somebody else, too, I think. Like they think they brought in three running backs this off season

So I'm just blanking on who it is But Yeah I mean I think they'd be in trouble In terms of what they get out of that backfield If they let Camara walk Oh Eno Benjamin is who they brought in That's kind of a nothing but still

It's weird though for them to If they're truly confident in Camara To then bring in three running backs I mean that's kind of strange But Well they've always been a multi They've always liked having other guys there it's true but yeah so what about hopkins though

hopkins is trickier i mean new england could definitely use him it just is not the most fun landing spot for hopkins probably but that i like the reunion with with bob yeah i mean he's definitely i think oh i agree i think i think mac jones is i mean we all if you if we were doing this podcast two years ago we would have be talking about how mac jones is the best qb from that the draft class probably. And then he gets one season without a guy that's doing architecture while coming up in an offensive game plan. So I can imagine why he didn't play well last year.

So, yeah, I like Mac. That's probably actually, you know, you're right. It's probably a pretty good spot. They, I mean, he could play any position. He could play out wide. He could play in the slot for them. And they'd have room for him to be productive. Yeah.

Obviously it would be awesome if like the chief signed him. but at this point it doesn't seem super realistic that the bills and chiefs of the world are going to bring them in. They also have literally no money. I think the chiefs do. I think they could make it work. I think they're still bottom five in cap space.

Bills are dead last, but... Yeah, I know the bills probably can't do it. Yeah, it seems like New England might be the only team right now, well, other than like a really bad team, which we know Hopkins isn't going to go to, but the only competitive team right now that can probably guarantee Hopkins like 130 targets. Yeah.

And that's probably what happens you want. Tennessee could, but they don't throw the ball enough for that to happen. And are they actually competitive, is the question. Right, yeah. So. But I would rather see him in New England than Tennessee for sure. Yeah, although if he landed in Tennessee, it could help my Traylon Burks sucks take from two years ago. Yeah, Berks is a guy I've started to have to come around on because I'm just like I don't know where else they're going to throw the ball.

Right. for Kyle Phillips still. Well, yeah, I think Phillips could play, but it doesn't even matter because they need a dude. And yeah, Burke's, by default, he's going to, like, fall into 120 targets plus this year. Right. He should produce on that. Yeah, and if they're creative like Arkansas was in college with him getting the ball, but, like, he can be productive. Yeah.

Agreed. All right, let's dive into tight end unit rankings. Chris, I don't know, we didn't really talk before in about how we were going to put these rankings together. But for me, my criteria was I factored past catching ability way more than blocking ability. And then furthermore, I factored ability to beat man coverage a little bit higher than just beating zone. I know tight ends don't get a lot of opportunity against man as is, but if you can beat man as a tight end, you're going to rank pretty highly for me.

And then on top of that, I factored starters way heavier, obviously than bench players, rotational guys, but I did teams with like really solid units, like top to bottom, ranked high for me because I like the idea of being, you know,

multiple and multifaceted and taking advantage of 12 personnel looks. I think passing at the 12 personals, I think passing at the 12 person. personnel with play action is one of the most effective ways to exploit defenses in the NFL today. So I weighed that pretty considerably. And then for the most part, I ignored rookies outside of like Kincaid and Laporta. But LaPorta didn't make my top 10 anyways. So it didn't matter. But for the most part, I ignored rookies. Yeah, I would say I pretty much am in line with there. I definitely, I didn't want to, it's mostly starter heavy. And then

And if whether you already do or whether I think their team's going to use a lot of those backups, definitely factors in. I don't want to. There's no, tight ends are hard positions to make impacts on it. I want, if I'm going to rank them in the top 10, I want them to feel like they actually do something for the team, whether that is blocking or receiving, preferably receiving. But definitely don't want to like, not that the Miami Dolphins have like a legit tight end, but they just don't use them in their offense. So there's, you know, if they did have a legit one, I'd probably. wouldn't include them. Yep.

All right. Well, without further ado, let's jump in. I'm just going to go ahead and say we probably have the same number one. Yeah, probably. It's Kansas City for me. Yeah. Yeah. Best tight end in the league, Travis Kelsey.

One of the best tight ends of all time. Who knows? Maybe when it's all done, he will be considered the best side end of all time. But as of right now, I probably give that honor to Gronk. Doesn't matter. Gronk's not in the league anymore. So Kelsey is the number one guy. And you know what's crazy about them is I think their tight end room is actually good beyond Kelsey.

So it's like not only they have the best guy, but they also have some depth. I think Noah Gray is a functional player. And I think Jody Fortson is a very underrated ball winner type tight end that can be a massive red zone threat. So I like this unit as a whole, but I obviously love Travis Kelsey as well. Yeah, I think either of those guys, it's amazing how healthy Kelsey has stayed over the years, playing a tight-end position that does tend to get hurt a lot, that we haven't really gotten to see these guys shine. But when they do use the 12 personnel and occasionally even 13 personnel,

these guys have flashed at times. And I definitely think that even if Kelsey would war or miss games, they'd be totally fine at the position, just not elite because you don't have Travis Kelsey. But yeah, they definitely do have some nice stuff behind him. There were fantasy analysts in the preseason last year, Chris, who decided to plunge Kelsey in their rankings because Jordy Forton was tearing up the preseason. That doesn't make any sense.

That doesn't make any sense. At least just say, give me that Kelsey is getting old argument more than that. It was both. It was like, hey, not only is Kelsey getting old, but they've got some legit depth behind him. You know, they might start to phase him out of the offense a little bit to preserve his career, which is a legit thought process. They did kind of do that. They did a little bit.

You're right. They did. And that was my take on. I was like, yeah, I think the thought process here was good. I just think you're overstating how much that's going to impact his production. And that's definitely what we saw. Yeah, he just gets open. Like, if he's running routes, he's getting open and he's getting targets, which pretty much no other tight end can you can say that for.

In the connection with, with Mahomes is, you know, otherworldly. Yes. All right. Throw out your number two. So I went with the Ravens here. I'm not even the biggest Mark Andrews fan, but he's definitely a very good tight end. But this is a team that the depth also really makes a difference for me. Yes.

Isaiah likely we saw he might be like the true first tight end handcuff this year. Like he came in and put up numbers when Andrews missed time last year. He's not much of a blocker, but he definitely can get open and play well. the receiving game. We didn't get to see Charlie Kohler really play last year due to an injury. He was a guy that I know we both liked, and he was actually drafted before likely. I mean, hopefully he can actually get on the field this year. Who knows if he'll, you know, kind of overtake that tight end two spot.

They kind of play different roles in the offense entirely. They do. But, yeah, and this is also the team that drafted Hayden Hearst before Mark Andrews. So who knows what they really think of these guys. but yeah they have very probably the best if Kelsey wasn't as elite as he is they probably have the best overall tight end room in the NFL for sure

Kohler you know we haven't got to see him but he he was a great I really liked him as a prospect I liked him more than likely I think he does a lot of the small things is required at the tight end position better than likely likely obviously kind of is more of a one to one replacement for Andrews from like a slot perspective you're trying to get slot mismatches

where Kohler is like just an all-around tight end you can play in the slot but doesn't have to he can play in line he's a good blocker ridiculous hands like this guy does not drop anything good route runner and he's a bigger target than likely likely is definitely more of your move tight end but Andrews man

enough can't be said about how he's affected that pass game in Baltimore he truly has been their number one wide receiver and he basically plays wide receiver because he's a slot mostly guy but he's you know Kelsey in his mid-30s now, I would say Andrews is probably the best tight end in the NFL at beating man coverage. I think even the date of the last couple of years kind of bears that out.

2.53 yards per outrun versus man coverage teams. Yeah, which is really nice. Good production there. Kelsey has a higher level of raw production, but it's on a lot more volume as well. But yeah, you know, Andrews is just a dynamic threat in the past game. if he caught the ball consistently and didn't uh didn't alligator yeah i thought it he'd get him on the jugs for like tell him to do that for practice he doesn't really need to practice anything else yeah exactly exactly but andrews is still pretty young too he's like 27 i think

so he's got like five six years of of premium production probably left in him so yeah it'll be interesting to see if the new off i mean we've just only have we seen him play with anyone but Greg Roman, I guess not, right? Nope. Yeah, so it'll be interesting to see what, you know, does a lot of 11 personnel open up things for him? Do they even go a lot of 11 personnel? It's going to be hard to tell me that you're not getting

Andrew's likely color on the field a good amount together with, and but forcing OBJ, Zay Flowers is a rookie, and Bateman is yet to really live up to his hype yet, despite I think he's got a high ceiling. Yeah. I know college football is basically a different sport, but if you look at what Todd Monkin did at Georgia, obviously they've become like tight end you taking that throne from Iowa, especially next year when Brock Bowers comes out. But they've been pushing out a ton of tight ends since Monkin's been there. So I think he definitely likes to get those tight ends involved in the past game. So I don't see much of a dip for Andrews. But yeah. All right, let's move on. So they were my two as well. Who is your, you? Three. This is where it got a little tricky for me, and I ultimately went with the Eagles.

Whoa! The Philadelphia Eagles. Okay, I had the Eagles all the way down at 10. Ten? Ten. That is some disrespect to Dallas Goddard. No, I like Goddard. I think Goddard is a very good tenant.

I just don't like anyone behind him is the problem with me. But go ahead. You make your case for the Eagles, and then... So it's obviously heavily driven by Goddard. I think Goddard is, he said this back when, I think it was his second year in the NFL, back when Zach Hertz was still on the team, that he was the top three tight end in the league. This is like, I don't even know if Kittle was really even doing what Kittle does today at this point. And I think he's totally right.

I think he is overall probably a top three talent tight end in the NFL behind Kelsey and Andrews. what he can do from a blocking perspective changes how that run game works. He is awesome against receiving. Speaking of yards per outrun versus man coverage, 2.3 is that's third behind Kelsey and Andrews. He can do pretty much everything you could want a tight end to do. He just happens to play on a team that has AJ Brown and Devante Smith on it and has a mobile QB and a strong running game.

There's just only so much, only so many places the ball can go on a play. But yeah, he does pretty much everything. So he's awesome. I don't think there's much more to say about him. I think the backups are not as bad as they get let out. At least compared to like the rest of the NFL, I don't think, other than like the Ravens,

I don't think a lot of, and the Chiefs, I don't think a lot of these teams have awesome backup tight ends. Jack Stoll is probably pretty much just a blocker for them, but he is good at what he does there. I think they want Grant Calcutera to be kind of a move tight end for them. We saw it a little bit last year, but he again started the year with injuries, so didn't really start to come on until late in the year. And then they have Dan Arnold on the team who they brought in,

who I kind of always liked. Underrated signing. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if all four of these guys make the roster. They do play a good amount of 12 personnel, so I bet they do try to find a way to do it. It just, they've like running back is another position. they've got a lot of guys at. So they're going to have to make some cuts here. But I think it's a solid backup tight end room.

It's obviously if Goddard were to miss a game, the room is, you know, the position is not going to do a whole lot for you unless a guy like Grant Calcutara really steps up. But yeah, I think I think it is a better overall room than they probably get credit for. Yeah. So I look at this backup situation. So Jack stole. So for those that don't know, Dallas Goddard is one of the only modern. tight ends in the league that plays almost exclusively inline. Like they do not move him around at all.

Jack Stoll, similar. Like, he's the in-line backup. And then you have Dan Arnold and Grant Calcutera, I think, competing for that move tight-end spot. Dan Arnold throughout his career has almost never played in line. He's always been like a slot, a big slot guy. Grant Calcutera in college, his last year, SMU, he legitimately didn't play in-line.

Like, he was a slot receiver. They just called him a tight end in the draft because that's what he's always played. So I think Arnold and Calcutterra kind of competing for that move tight end spot and then stole is the direct backup to Goddard I just don't I don't love any of those guys Arnold hasn't made any noise in a few years really So I might be underrating that move a little bit but I just you know We need to see Calcuttaire develop a little bit as well but I do love Dallas Goddard though So maybe I'll move them up a spot or two So Goddard actually ran a larger percentage of his routes from the

slot than in line last year. Really? Yeah. Doesn't mean his snaps were more there, but his, when he ran a route, they do use him to block a lot in line. Interesting. It is surprising. He wasn't, he's way more effective in line, 3.3 yards per outrun in line compared to 1.2 in the slot.

But again, that, he's not going to get a lot of plays designed up for him in the slot. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think Goddard is, you know, one of the more underrated players. the league. He's as complete of a tight end as you're going to find as well. So I definitely like him. My, you know what, I'll move them up. Let's see. I have, here, I'll move them up to number eight. How about that? You made a good case. And I do love Goddard. So they're,

they're, they're, they're, they're, they're my number eight now. Is that, is that the first ever live ranking change for any of these positions? I mean, Steve's changed a few on the fly a couple times, but I'm an immovable object, Steve, or Chris. All right, my number three. And I know you're going to scrutinize this one heavily, but I stuck with my gut here. And that's the New York Giants. Wow. They're in my list, but that's interesting.

So Darren Waller, when healthy, is probably the second best receiving tit in the NFL. He gives defenses. maybe he might even be like more effective than Kelsey at this point in his career. I think the Kelsey Mahomes connection elevates Kelsey's production quite a bit. Darren Waller gives defenses absolute nightmares. He is a he is a menace to society. He's great against man. He's great against zone.

He can line up literally anywhere, wide, slot. He can beat defensive backs one-on-one with his size and physicality. He can crush linebackers and safeties. against man with his speed and athleticism. The dude is a freak of nature. When he's healthy, and that's a big caveat, when healthy, because he hasn't been healthy the last couple years, he is

freaking awesome in the past game. I think they're going to build that offense around him as well. I think they're going to basically feed Waller until the wheels fall off this year. Daniel Bellinger, as their two, he played really, really freaking good as a rookie. One of the better rookie seasons we've seen

of late from a tight end, and he you know, now he's their number two. But he's a complete player. He's a really good blocker, really good in pass pro, and he's a really good receiver. And I don't know if you've seen pictures of Mr. Guns Bellinger, but the dude is absolutely yoked coming into year, too. Like he is huge. He's just, yeah, massive, just muscle mass and just trim.

He's like completely jacked, completely ripped. Looks like his pee would melt a cup, to be honest with you. So I'm sure the NFL is watching that situation. closely with the potential of PED usage there. But anyways, I really love this one-two punch. Probably, you know, looking, I mean, I love the Andrews likely one-two combo there, but Waller Bellinger is really solid, especially because they do completely different things. So they complement each other really well.

If they decide to be heavy 12 personnel this year, I think that's going to be really good for the Giants. Yeah, I have them in five. Okay. So not too far. Yeah. Waller, yeah, I was, Bellinger was a guy that I thought did pretty well last year, given his opportunities.

I was a little, especially as a rookie tight end, a position that we regularly see take time to really get going in for rookies. I was a little surprised when they made the trade for Waller. They must view him as a very good receiver because they have not a lot of receiving talent and they gave up not like significant capital, but they gave up decent capital to go get Waller.

or despite having what I thought was a solid rookie tight end performance from last year. So I mean, he's definitely not going to play a lot in line. I mean, he didn't for the Raiders, and I doubt he does for the Giants as well. The problem is that the Giants just have like so many slot receivers on their team. So it's just like, how do you fit all these guys in? Yeah, I think the idea there is like you get 12 personnel in the field. You get Waller and Bellinger together. However you line them up.

And then you're bringing those slot guys, they're all quick and speedy. You bring them all on the field and you're forcing heavier personnel on defense. So you're taking a defensive back off the field. The reaction time from linebackers, like you're going to force them into playing zone. And then you're going to get your shifty slot receivers matched up against, you know, safeties and linebackers in zone. And they're going to destroy those matchups. And if they don't do that, then you're going to get, you know, Waller and Bellinger on,

you know, favorable matchups. So I kind of look if you're doing there. We have a dog appearance. Let's go. Yeah, when they made the trade for Waller, it was pretty evident that they viewed him as their wide receiver one for this year because they didn't really do much else

that receiver when that was obviously their biggest need. All right, Chris, your number four. I had the 49ers with Kittle. Hold on one second. No worries. Yeah. So I like the 49ers as well. They, you know, Kittle is, so I rank them sixth.

And part of the problem for me was they just don't have anyone else behind them. And so, or behind Kittle, I should say. Kittal is a great player, though. I mean, he really is a good player. I think Kittle is, gosh, he's probably three or four in the league as far as his total skill set. His problem along with Darren Waller is just staying healthy. but they just don't have anyone behind him so I rank them sixth instead of a little bit higher

even though I think Kittles is a bad man but Chris make your case for SF Yeah so their depth is definitely the problem Which is why I knocked them down a bit And Kittl doesn't stay healthy Whereas So Tyler Kroff left this year If he had stayed I would have liked that a lot better for them

Just their tight end room as a whole But Kittal is still very talented so had to put them still pretty high up here. Yeah, I feel that. So my number four team, Chris, is the Buffalo Bills. I thought you said you weren't counting rookies. No, I said other than Dalton Kincaid. Other than Kincaid.

Other than Kincaid in Detroit didn't make my top 10, so Leporta didn't matter, but I really like Kincaid and what he brings in the past. Yeah, I had them at 10. 10. So still made the list. Yeah. So my thinking here is like Dawson Knox is already a really good tight end in his own right. Especially from a past game perspective, he's a really good vertical threat, seam threat. Like he can own the deep middle of the field. He's not overly dynamic, not the best route runner.

So he has some limitations for sure. He's a pretty good blocker. But the bills like to spread you out anyway. So it's not like they don't require their tight ends to be, you know, incredible blockers a whole lot. Dalton Kincaid comes in as a true man-beater, you know, 1V1, whatever matchup he's going to get, he's going to win that. Unless you're going to put like a big true cover corner on him, I don't see how you shut him down. And then Quentin Morris is there three. Like this dude has been underrated for a few years.

Coming out of training camp last year, there was a lot of talk. He was going to be a dude getting a lot of playing time. And it just kind of never really manifested. But I do think he's like a, he might be one of the better number three. three tight ends in the league at this point. But just the fact that they have two guys who can dramatically affect the past game in a certain way is impressive to me. And I like that they're paying Dawson Knox a ton of money.

And Kincaid was a top 15 player for me in this year's draft class. So pretty big on him. Yeah, Kincaid's a guy that it'll be interesting to see what they do with them. Because I think Dawson Knox is still their starting tight end. He's going to play the most tight end role. Like Kincaid may run on only like 40% of the routes. and that wouldn't shock me. He's definitely going to be involved in some capacity.

You don't draft a guy that high and a team that is making a super old run to not use an offensive skill player that you draft in the first round. He'll be interesting to see what he does. Can he play in the slot for them and give them something that they seem to have been missing over the past few years when they've tried

Isaiah McKenzie and Cole Beasley and all these other pretty meh receivers. Dawson-Ockes. is definitely underrated as a whole. I mean, he does play with Josh Allen and a pass happy offense, so that definitely helps him. But he's a good tight end that pretty much can do everything that they ask him to do, just not at the elite levels that we see other guys play at.

And yeah, right, you totally hit on the Quentin Morris thing. I mean, that guy just catches touchdowns all the time from the guys that all fantasy players want to catch the touchdowns, like Diggs and Gabe Davis. Absolutely. All right. So your number five was the Giants. So I'll throw out my five. My five is the Atlanta Falcons. Have them at six. You have them at six? Okay. So we're not too far off there. I really like, I mean, Kyle Pitts, I still think is a freak of nature. If there's going to be any guy to like take the throne as the number one past catching 10 in the NFL, it's going to be him. Whether that happens or not, probably relies too heavily on Arthur Smith's shoulders. So I don't love that. that. But we're not ranking coaches here. We're ranking tight ends. And I,

Kyle Pitts, they added Johnny Smith to this room. Parker Hess now slides back into the tight end three role, which is probably where he belongs. But Janu and Pitts just is a pretty good combo. John is nothing special. Obviously, his time in New England was not glamorous, especially compared to the way he was kind of trending when New England signed him. He had had a couple really good years in Tennessee. And he's, he's really strong in that dump off scheme touch role where he can get after it, you you know, after the catch. Kind of what we've seen the Cowboys do with Dalton Schultz last couple of years.

Jonu Smith is like a souped up version of that. So hopefully the Falcons get him right and get him in the correct role again where he's not just like a blocking tight end and, you know, a small blocking tight end. But Pitts is a freak of nature. So I can't, I can't rank him any lower than six or five because I just think he's just too good for that. Yeah, it's probably the most athletic tight end room. Yes. Like Jonu can do a lot.

and Pitts is probably the most athletic tight end in the league. Yeah, it's... Yeah, and Parker Hess is a close second to that. I think he's got one of the best RAS scores of all time for a tight end. Yeah, so, I mean, man, if this offense, if you took this tight end room and put it on a pass happy offense, like the Bills or the Chiefs, like, oh, man, what, like, there's a good chance they're bumped up higher than on this list

just because of the way the offense runs. It's just, it's hard to really feel the impact. of a guy like Kyle Pitts in an offense that is only going to throw the ball 15 times a game. Yep. I agree with that. That is, this is one of the cases here where, like,

my ranking is going to be way higher than the production probably. Right. You know, I think the casual will look at Atlanta being five and think that's crazy. Yeah, but they absolutely deserve it. So I had them at six. So what's your six?

My six was SF. So now we're on. All right, we're back on track here. Yeah. So your six was Atlanta, right? Yes. Yeah. So who's your seven?

So I don't feel great about this one, but I put the Vikings here. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I mean, I was trying to push them down even farther. And I just, this was about as far as I could get. And I was like, I guess that's like, that's good enough. Hockinson is, I feel like I feel like I, whatever the opposite of rose-colored glasses is is the way I look at Hawkinson, because he just gets so much hype that I just don't see and I just don't understand.

And it makes him look worse in my eyes than he probably actually is, because I do think he's a good tight end. It's just he's nothing, he's not like any of the other starting tight ends that we mentioned previously, the Kelsey Andrews, Goddard, Kittle, Pitts, Waller group. I think he can do good things for an offense, but if he is a guy you're running your offense through, you're in trouble. But that being said, if you remove the hype from him, I think this is probably where they belong. And Josh Oliver, they paid him way too much money, but he is a good, you know, like backup, tight end blocking guy.

Yeah, you described the Hawkinson thing legitimately perfectly. So it's funny because my dad listens to the podcast. He's an avid dynasty player, by the way. You're in a league with him, actually. and he he always hears the shade we throw Hawkinson on this podcast and my other podcast. And so he asked me, he's like, do you really think Hawkinson sucks? Like, do you think he's bad? It's like, I love him.

Like, he's killing it for me in Dynasty. And I'm like, no, I don't think he sucks. It's just versus the hype, though, it forces me to say things like that because the hype is so overblown versus what he actually is capable of and what he does that I just, you know, it makes me not want to like him. Right. When the lines traded him, I was relieved. I was like, oh, my, thank God, they're not going to have to pay this guy, you know, $15 million a year.

And that's what the Vikings are. They're staring down the barrel of having to pay this guy $15 million a year. And that's where I draw the line. But if I remove all of that, remove the hype and my personal bias, you know, he's a fine tight end. He's a good tight end. He's a solid blocker. He's solid in the past game. He can do some things.

I think with Jefferson and now Addison in the mix, that, that elevates him a little bit. He's going to have some more space to work with. But he's not very good against man, Chris. That's a big criteria for me. I think you look at like, if you were to adjust his effectiveness against man versus the opportunity he gets against man,

really, really poor. Like, I mean, what's his yards per route runs down like what, 1.3 or something or 1.4? It's not great. But he gets a ton of opportunity against me. And so the raw production looks good. Yeah, he's 1.7. overall, it's probably a little bit.

1-7 overall is low in general, actually, but... It's like, it's good. It's good for it. Yeah, it's good for it. Yeah, it's not the elite number. 147 against man. Yeah, yeah. That's a little bit lower. But again, it's not bad.

It's just, it's nothing special. Yeah, the Vikings have to be hoping Jordan Addis. Like, the drafting of Jordan Assen does like two things. It gives them another wide receiver. They desperately need. But also, and the more important thing. is it gives the offense a chance to have a true number two that isn't Hockinson so they don't have to pay him stick around.

The crazy thing about the Oliver signing, by the way, is they're paying him decent money and then they're going to have to pay Hockinson. I don't, can you have that much money wrapped up into the tight end position? Well, we talked about. That'll be over $20 million between the two guys. Yeah, we talked about before this that the Vikings front office slash ownership group probably doesn't think they are winning the Super Bowl this year, whereas the coaching definitely does.

Maybe they aren't looking at Hawkinson long term. They probably should be if they trade to what they traded, but maybe they're not. Maybe they're like, we'll get a compic back for him wherever he signs and gets a big contract because he probably will. And we'll, you know, we'll move on. It's just interesting because they gave up a second and a third for him. But yeah, I digress.

All right, so you're Throw out your eight My eight was the Philadelphia Eagles So throw out your number eight So I put the Cleveland Browns here Um No you don't like that one No no I like it

They were my first out So I put them an honorable mention I was going to mention them at the end But yeah that's They I feel like this has been a tight end room That I've liked a number of guys For like five years And like one of these days

These guys are going to blow up Starting with David Njoku obviously he is a huge, huge guy, physical specimen, definitely has started to break out a little bit, you know, the past one or two years. We'll see. It really hinges on what Watson can get the offense going and what Ninjoku does with that. Harrison Bryant is a guy that I've liked since he was drafted. It's been a while now.

What has it been? Like four years he's been in the league? I think he's going into year three or four. Yeah. So, and he, there's just always been a lot of tight ends here in Cleveland that he's never really been able to carve out a major role. But he's a guy that I think can definitely play. They brought in Jordan Atkins from Houston, who we've seen Flash at times and do some good things. This is just like an overall good tight end room.

It is. It is a no studs. All of them have weaknesses, but it is definitely very deep. Harrison Bryant, when they drafted him, I think. they were thinking they were going to lose Nizoku. Remember, he was demanding a trade at one point. Right. He ended up mending the fence and he signs a long-term deal there or whatever.

But that Jordan Aiken's siding is a little bit underrated. That's a pretty low-key. No one's really talked about that. And I know for fantasy purposes, it doesn't mean anything really unless Injoku gets hurt. But Aiken's has been quietly a pretty productive player. He's really good against man. That manifested last year. He had 2.2 yards per route running against man.

coverage, which on a team with literally nobody, Chris, there is no reason like defenses should allow Jordan Aiken's to carve them up against man, but he did. Like he did a really good job and with no help, virtually no help. Bad quarterback play, bad supporting cast. So they put him on a team now with legitimate receivers. It's like, well, what does he capable of against, you know, in those types of situations? And Joku wasn't bad against man himself. I think he ranked top 10 in yards per route run as well.

Jesse James is there too like another just like solid blocking tight end Yeah He ranks high on the fake athlete list Yes he does Everyone thinks he's a good athlete but he's just really not But yeah overall good Definitely a good unit

Just didn't have the I think the steam for me to put him in the top 10 But Yeah All right that was your 8 So my 9 was the Seattle Seahawks. Wow. Okay. I did not have them on my list.

I didn't actually really even consider them, but I probably should have now that you say that. Yeah, I think their tiny end room is similar to the Browns, actually, where I think it's just really deep. I'm probably higher on Will Disley than most people. I really like them coming out of college. I think he's been a really solid piece for them. He's an excellent blocker.

And the run game is such an important part to them. I kind of factored his blocking in probably more than most teams. just because it is such a crucial part of their identity. But he's a good blocker. He's also a pretty good receiver. He's really good against zone. Noah Fant is, I think, probably a little bit better than David Injoku. Injoku does some things better than Fant.

But if we're comparing, like I'm comparing these two units head to head, I think Fant is probably a better route runner, a little bit more athletic after the catch, and probably a better inline blocker as well. Injoku, Injoku's definitely got the freak athlete, like contested catch highlight reel, which Faint doesn't really have. But head to head, I think Fain's probably a better receiver. Then Parkinson's like a legit number three.

So, but Dizzy's just, I think he's really, really good. So. Yeah. I mean, all of those guys have flashed at times. I mean, even Parkinson, which is crazy. And Fant was, you know, on the scene on the same level as Hawkinson when they came out of Iowa as like, are these two or, you know, if you took. Fants like hype and Hawkinson's hype and just put them together, they'd probably both be at the

right level. That's true. That's true. Fan doesn't get talked about enough and Hawkinson gets talking about too much. But yeah, they are very similar to the Browns probably should be like, yeah, they're probably one of my first one outs now that I, now that I look at them. Nice. Who was your number nine?

So, yeah, this is my nine. Buffalo was my 10. So this is my last. My last one was New England. Nice. Hunter. Okay, your last one, get you. Yeah.

Hunter Henry is a guy that I think, you know, is definitely very underrated. Hasn't really lived up to the hype in New England. Probably hasn't lived up to the hype to his draft capital as a whole. But he's still a very good tight end. He, we were talking earlier about if Hopkins signs there or whatnot and like he could play in the slot out wide for them. Henry could legit be their best slot weapon. this year if nothing changes in the receiving room. Depending if Juju doesn't come back to health and plays well,

like no one else on this team ran more than 100 slot routes last year than Jacobi Myers and Hunter Henry. Kendrick Bourne would be the other option, but again, nothing special. So like, Henry could, he's a legit passing weapon that they haven't really seemed to totally unlock, which is a little surprising, considering of the New England tight end history. And then they bring in Gisicki, which, you know, I'm not a huge Gisicki guy, but, you know, he can definitely do some things for you. And if you use him correctly in your offense. Anthony Farkser is also there.

I think that's a solid tight end three. That's an underrated move. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a solid overall room with, I think, a pretty solid ceiling if Henry really does get it going there at some point. Yep. I agree with you. Let me look here.

Let's see if I have anything I want to add. No, I do. I think they're solid. I didn't have them in my top ten, obviously, but I do think they're solid. Hunter Henry's probably, shoot, you and I have talked about it off air, but he's definitely an underrated player. When you look at anything involving New England,

you have to understand the fact that Matt Patricia probably derailed everyone's opinion about anyone on that team for an entire season. Yeah, exactly. So Henry's not looked at super favorably, probably because of fantasy football reasons, but in the real NFL world, I think he's a respected player for sure. And, you know, probably,

probably deserves to be on the comeback watch list because I think with a real offense here, he could actually do some things. All right, my 10 was the Indianapolis Colts. Top the bottom, just this unit's loaded. They got four guys. I don't see they're coming out of this offseason with four tight ends on the roster. There's no way they don't unless they make a trade.

But Jalani Woods obviously was a second round pick a year ago. Or was he a third round pick? I don't know. But he was a high pick. One of the freakiest athletes at the time of position we've seen. Moeally Cox has been a productive player. Will Mallory was one of my favorite dudes this year of the draft as a peer pass catcher from the slot. I think he's got a ton of juice.

Kylan Grayson is there is there three slash four. He can back up, you know, either the move tight end or the inline spot. Like all four of these guys can play ball. And I think the best football is yet to be seen from Woods. So I'm a big fan of this unit as a whole. And I think they shoot, all these guys can affect the past game, which is kind of crazy. Yeah, it's a good one. It's definitely a room where you're kind of waiting for somebody to take the leap.

I don't think it's coming from Moley-Cox at this point. I think we know what he is. Jelani Woods is definitely the favorite to take that leap. It would definitely vault them into probably top 10 territory for me if somebody does. It's just how are they going to use all these guys? Because they all do good things and just like getting them all on the field and with what you already have to do with Michael Pittman and Alec Pierce, you're Jonathan Taylor.

I mean, they've got a lot of guys they need to figure out how to use in an offense. And there's just only so many places the ball can go. So it's probably a unit that's never going to get a ton of recognition because it's going to be hard for any of these guys production numbers to, like, really blow up. But yeah, it's... Unless Richardson just falls in love with one of these guys and makes him his dude, you know. Right, yeah, something like that. Yeah, Will Mallory is definitely a sneaky, sneaky guy that is, I don't, I don't hear anybody ever. talk about him. Yeah. It's a from a fantasy standpoint, this is a nightmare situation because it's

like who in the world is going to get all the targets here. Obviously, everyone's hoping it's woods. I've seen a lot of dynasty hype for Woods. But we really just don't know yet. And furthermore, you already mentioned Pierce and Pittman. It's like this is a general potential issue with this offense. They just have a, they have a lot of size. Yeah. Like they're tight-end heavy scheme and then their outside receivers are both giants as well like pierce's six three six four pitman six three six four and they're they're thicker dudes too so it's not it's not like a christian watson six four that can freaking fly like yeah pierce has some wheels but he's not on that level he's not elite deep speed you know he's just got good speed so it's going to be weird

because you know i guess maybe a good way to end the pod too we talk a lot about team building we've talked about all the success these inaccurate quarterbacks have had by getting them, you know, separators and shifting guys. Well, Richardson's come into a situation where, yeah, I think the supporting cast on paper is good, but does it really maximize his skill set? He's an inaccurate thrower, and now he's got six, six of his pass catchers are all big dudes. Yeah. Now, I think Will Mallory is a good separator for a tight end, but he's still a tight end. Like, it's not the same as a, you know, a shifty slot receiver or a Stefan Diggs or an A.J. Brown. not it's not going to be that level of separation.

Even Josh Downs is not like a premier separator as much as he is. He's a gadget player. Yeah, yeah. And he knows how to go up for catches and position his body well and whatnot. Yeah, he's a contested catch phenom that also is productive on gadgets. It's like, it's kind of a really weird situation. So I'm like, Colts fans need to be praying about Richardson's arm and that coming along. I will say, so Shane Steichen kind of did this, uh, when the charge.

The charges were a team with Mike Williams, Keenan Allen, whatever tight end they had at the time. I guess it would have been Hunter Henry when he was there. So another offense that didn't have, Keenan Allen's definitely shifty, but he's not like a speed guy necessarily. So he's been a part of offenses that don't have a lot of speed before. Yep.

Yeah, you got to also trust Stike into, he's going to use RPO's and stuff to get guys, you know, free looks. So, but that said, it's worth, it's worth noting my concern here that they have like legitimate towers that receiver in tight end. And it's not, you know, it might be, might be rough going early for Richardson. So any, anyone else you wanted to note, there was one unit I thought was worth thrown out there. I thought about thrown out. If we were counting Taysam Hill as a tight end, I thought about throwing out the Saints.

That's my team. Yeah, it's John Johnson Foster Morel I was like this is not bad I was like I don't know what we're counting Tassum as But this I could work with this Wait my death start I'm looking at has them as having Jesse James by the way Oh I thought he was still on the

What did I say he was the The Browns right? Yeah Yeah he's on He left the Browns He's on the Saints Okay Point taken, though, but for the Saints.

But Joanne Johnson's a legit, like, receiving option from the slot out wide. They can move him around. Foster Morrow freak athlete. He's been like an in-line blocker for Waller. I think there's a lot of untapped potential there as a pass catcher, though. Yep. And then Tassam, you know, Taysam does things. He's not worth the money that he's paid, but he does things.

He does things. He lines up on the football field somewhere. sometimes that quarterback does tasem run what what does tasem do the most of this year rush attempts routes or dropbacks rank them for me let's do it that way i'll say rush attempts one routes two dropbacks three really see i think it's i think it's routes no no i think it's yeah routes Man, I think Rushet Times might be down. The whole, like, with Camara, Kendri Miller, and Jamal Williams there,

but it's close. I'm looking at Rush Timbs this way. This is the first year where they've had a quarterback. Like, they're paying a ton of money to Derek Carr. He is their quarterback. Like, there's no controversy. There's no James Winston looking for snaps. There's no Andy Dalton who's just a backup.

Like, he's the guy. And then they also have now, two tight ends in front of them in foster morrow and joan johnson so i'm looking at like if tasem has a role in this offense at all it's to come in in wildcat and run cuby power yeah so i don't seem getting on the field you know barring injury we're you know we can't predict injuries though so that's that's the way i'm looking at it like i just don't see a role for him outside of like special teams and in the occasional wildcat rush attempt maybe it's finally the year that tasem hill does not play too many snaps because it sounds like we we both think they've got guys at each

kind of spot for him yes yep all right that's going to do it we're getting you in and out and under an hour today um thanks so much for listening the data suite Chris do we have an official launch date we can announce I know it's been discussed at nauseam in the the discord here but I don't think we actually can yeah I don't know an official date but it sounds like it is what would that be looks like Scott's trying to change things again. Go figure. Let's say like two, three weeks, something like that.

Yeah, I'll say before the middle of July. Yes. If the middle of July is July 15th or 16th, it'll be out before the middle of July. We've said this lie. It's coming. We just want to make sure it's as awesome as it possibly can be so that everybody loves it. Yes. We get yelled at by the development team every day and Chris to,

beta test this better because we're trying to break it every possible way so that way you guys don't break it when you get in there you can do literally anything in it which makes it very hard to know everything you could possibly do. Yeah, that's a good way of saying that. It's a good way I say that, yeah.

All right guys, thank you so much for listening. We will be back next week, probably with Steve in his normal chair, but big shout out to Chris for bailing us out this morning and joining the pod. Next week we are wrapping series up with quarterbacks. So that's going to be a fun show.

Maybe we'll have you on Chris just to get your opinion because quarterbacks are, you know, hot takey. So anyways, I am Brett, your host. This is Chris, the co-host, and we are out. Thanks for tuning in to this edition of the Fantasy Points podcast. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review on your favorite platform. And come join the roster at FantasyPoint.com.