Fantasy Football Daily - The NFL's Top Cornerback Units | Take Talk Podcast

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

In Take Talk 55, Steve O'Rourke (@callmesteveo7) and Brett Whitefield (@BGWhitefield) select and debate their top-10 cornerback groups in the NFL. Interested in playing Best Ball in 2023? There's no better place than Underdog Fantasy. Use our code FANTASYPTS to sign up for a new account at Underdog, and not only will you get a 100% deposit match up to $100... but you'll get a Fantasy Points Standard subscription for only $5! https://www.fantasypoints.com/underdog --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/fantasy-points-podcast/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's time to the Fantasy Points podcast brought to you by FantasyPoints.com. Top level fantasy football and NFL betting analysis from every perspective and angle, from numbers to the film room with a single goal to help you score more fantasy points. Hello, everyone, and welcome into the Take Talk podcast. My name is Steve Norfolk, and as always, I'm with my co-host, Brett Whitefield. Brett, how are you doing this morning? Oh, that was the best intro ever because the timer skipped the beat so you were sure when to come in. I know, I was like, I had the countdown going in my head.

And then I looked up and the countdown was at one. And I was like, oh, no, I'm halfway through. I'm halfway through hello right now. Yeah, it froze on three for a second. That's why. And then it like sped back up. That was super weird. Yeah, well, Steve, I'm doing it.

I love that intro though. We are, we're back today. We're going to talk about corners, cornerbacks. Yeah, figure. Start with wide receivers, move right to their, their combatants. Yeah, and we're going to do this positional ranking series. We always like to talk team building on this podcast. So, but Steve, before we get into that, I got to get something off my chest.

I was to say, you look like you guys, you got some on your chest there. I think you need to pull it off. Yeah. So as you know, for basically the last 14 plus months, we've been promoting this perspective data tool that's coming out. Oh, yeah. It's been a long journey. You know, we've been going above and beyond to make sure that this thing is the best.

It can possibly be. It's the best tool that ever comes on the market. And I think we've done a pretty good job of that. I think this tool is the best tool that's ever going to be on the market available to the public. I think it's incredible. I think this is, this tool is, if I are to place a monetary value on what I think a user should be willing to pay for this tool, I would say about 500 bucks a year. Wow.

Yeah, that's how much I believe in it. Now, I was willing to settle in our team meetings, Steve, I was willing to settle. I realized $500 is extreme for any consumer-facing product. So you don't necessarily want to be considered pretentious. of course but so I was willing to settle I threw out numbers like $200

for a season even considered a $150 but the incompetent leadership here at Fancy Point Scott Barrett has decided that not only is this tool

going to hit market it's going to hit market for $100 which is one-fifth of what I wanted to charge for this product. But it gets worse, Steve. It gets worse. Because Scott Barrett has decided that for the first year, this tool will be 50% off and it will only cost $50.

$50. $50. I don't understand how this is even a thing. I don't understand how we got to this spot where Scott just said, you know what, Brett, you don't ever need to retire one day. We're throwing that out the window. I'm a man of the people, and I want to give the people the best tool ever invented for $50. I don't understand how we got here, but here we are.

And I'm a little chuffed about it, Steve, so I thought I could air the company dirty laundry here on the TikTok podcast. Scott is villain number one for me right now, public enemy number one. You got the proverbial rug pulled right out from underneath, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I was willing to admit $500 was extreme, you know. But I think the people should have to, it should cost them something, almost a piece of their soul. That's how good this tool is. Because that's what we've put into this.

Yeah, because I put my soul into it. I don't have my life. My wife and kids hate me. But, I mean, seriously, this is ridiculous value. I'm kind of making light of a funny situation. but Scott and I did have a good argument about this because this is insane value. $50 for the first year of this fantasy points data suite, which comes out in the first beta trial will be next weekend, Steve.

Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you'll be able to get in there and play with this thing as much as you want. And then we're going to take it away from you and we're going to force you to beg us to bring it back. And here's the crazy thing. You'll have to pay $50 at some point to bring it back. probably even give you trials on trials because apparently Scott's the most generous man in the world. And even when we bring it back out of the beta, I'm sure you'll get a 20 day trial or maybe a two-month trial. Who freaking knows? At some point, you're going to have to pay $50 for it, though.

Who knows when? Who knows when? I was just to say, like, we, they have been talking about just like what we're going to offer as like free tables. Yeah. And even that is like. Oh, God. Don't even get me started on that. I was like, you can't even get that anywhere else.

We're just going to give it away. You can't get that anywhere else for free. And we're just like, here, everybody, have a ball. Yep. Yeah, so I'm in a spot. It's an uncomfortable spot, but I got to trust the leadership and the business. John Hanson has been in this business for a really long time. I got to give him some credit.

He's built a few empires at this point, not just one, but multiple. So I got to at least defer to the extra. experts on this, not where I would have gone. Point blank. Not where I would have gone with the pricing there. But hey, this is what they decided and we're going to roll with it. And honestly, there's no reason how many people live on planet Earth, Steve?

$7 billion something? Yeah, somewhere around there. No reason 7 billion something people shouldn't own this product because it's only going to be $50 for the first year. Yeah. So. Yeah. I mean, that's what less than $5 a month? Yeah,

I know. At least they at least go to 60, right? So you can just say it's five bucks a month. Right. No. Scott didn't even want to do that. And then even if you go just football season, it's like less than $10 a month. Oh. That doesn't make me feel any better, Steve. Less than $1 all season. This is crazy. But anyways, guys, you're going to want to get your hands on this product. I'm actually not being silly. Like I actually was heated about this yesterday. I called Scott. We had a good, a good, I would say yell session at each other.

And then ultimately I just said, you know what? Let's do it. Let's roll, Scott. And I told them I was going to air the dirty laundry on the podcast. Yeah. I mean, it's as extensive as it can get. Like, just for everybody to know, we, a lot of us wanted this out last year. Yes.

We wanted to work something out last year. We have amazing developers on our side. that told us to basically wait because they want to put out the best product possible. We wanted to get it out and get going. We let the developers do their thing. And now, I mean, this thing is, it's insane. Like, it's so much more than most people would ever know what to do with to even begin with. Yeah, and it targets, like, if you're a high-level betting guy, if you're a casual

betting guy, if you're a high-level fantasy player, or a casual fantasy player. If you're just a silly football geek and just want to geek out on stats and your favorite team's data, this tool's for you as well. If you're an analytics guy and you want to build some models

with some cool stats, this tool's for you too. Like there isn't a person in the football space that this tool won't accommodate. Right. And it goes as deep as you want it to go and it goes as shallow as you want it to go. It is incredible.

Steve, why don't we spend two minutes talking about our process, how we get the data. So we have like, well, we have seven plus processes in growing of data collection where we have guys who are charting participation. They're charting who's on the field, what they're doing on the field. So not just where they're standing, but also what they're doing on each play. Yeah.

So assignments, we're charting assignments. We're charting a litany of performance-based metrics from QB accuracy to wide receiver separation to, I guess that flips both ways, cornerback coverage. Yep. And, you know, how well they're covering. We're charting running backs and force miss tackles and yards after contact. We're charting run, schematic stuff, like run concepts, pass concepts, routes, run. Like, you know, every single route of receiver runs gets charted.

And there will be a separation metric that comes out involving every single route receiver runs not just routes are targeted on. You will be able to go as deep as you want to go or as shallow as you want to go. This tool is going to be amazing. Yeah, I'm really excited for it because I just like, again, like we said, with all the work that we've put into it and just the quality that you and me and Chris and all the guys at fantasy points really stand by like it's there. This is not anything short of the best thing possible we all could have put out.

And it's going to be worth all the headache it caused us because, like, again, it's such an extensive product that's going to help anyone and everyone with anything they want to football-based at a very low price of $50 per year for the first year. Yeah. Much to your dismay. It's crazy. Yeah, this is going to be lit, man. I'm super excited. the we've been waiting for this for a long time the oh one other thing it can help with if you do your own podcast or any type of media and you want to quickly reference data points you know we'll have a

b-to-be product where you can buy licensing for that and you just you can literally build talking points for yourself for your entire podcast and for us steve it's going to be great because you know we have ways to access the data right now but this tool is going to make it so much easy year. Right. Like we have. How many filters are? We have to parse things a little bit more when we work with the data, but this is going

to be so intuitive, so easy to use. Like, you can do the widest breath of, like, searches, and you can do the narrowest search as possible, where if you want to pull every guy at every position in a metric, you can. Whereas if you want to pull three guys with the very specific, like, you want to pull. specific requirements, you can get that too. Like, it's going to be the, like, everything. It's incredible.

Yeah. You could filter, like, the filtering capability, this is so insane. You could decide, this is just one example, by the way. You could just be like, hey, I want to know, Patrick Mahomes' stats or yards per attempt when he's inside the 20 and he's targeting single coverage against cover three. and you can get stats on that. Or you could say, I want to know what happens when he targets a hole in zone against cover 4 within the 20. You can pull all the advanced metrics like that.

You can pull as accuracy numbers, you know, on a performance level, an efficiency level. It's pretty insane. So, all right, let's move on. I feel better now that I get that off my chest. I'm coming for you, but I love you. Anyways. All right. cornerbacks, Steve, we want to talk about the top 10 cornerback units in the NFL.

If I had to guess, Steve, I would say you and I see this a lot differently than we saw receivers. Receivers, we were very similar. Yes. Even not necessarily like head-to-head rank, but we were, we had the same top 10, right? As I say, I think we missed on like number 10, which, you know, that's. and I had the Raiders in. Yeah. Oh, and then nine as well.

You had Jacksonville. I had Pittsburgh. But point being is like we were pretty close on that. Yeah. I don't, I'm guessing because there's a lot more subjectivity with, because we don't have, receivers are easy because you have production numbers.

Like why do they access to production numbers? So it's like you can almost lay out your best receivers without even thinking about it. Cornerback's a little bit harder. You've got to take it into some more nuance, coverage scheme. performance within that scheme. Depth is really important for sure at corner. So I'm just got, if I had to guess, I would say we're not as aligned on corners.

But who knows? We'll see. I've said that before and then I've been wrong. So, yeah, do you want to kick it off? Yeah, number one. Just go, just launch right into number one. Yeah. Number one, I went with Miami.

which I mean but that one see that one was where I was like I think we're going to have the same number one because what Miami did in the offseason going to get Jalen Ramsey pairing him with Zaving Howard and then drafting Cam Smith like they just had a good off season for their cornerbacks and that's I mean Jalen Ramsey everybody talked about last year early in the year how he fell off a cliff he wasn't the same guy the Atlanta game happened he I don't know if you channeled something or what, but he went back to being more of himself than he was at the beginning of the year. And I think that being back on a team that's going to be very competitive this year,

he's only going to ramp up his competitiveness as well as the fact that he's going to be playing in more of a man scheme rather than what the Rams ran, which was the softest zone you've ever seen. And so I think that also you're going to see a lot more of what made Jalen Ramsey so good in his career. I think we were not necessarily robbed of it with him in L.A., but like we just didn't get to see it as much just because of the scheme they ran. But this year we'll get to see him more matching up and going head to head with like number one, number two receivers this year as opposed to previous years where he kind of just defended one side of the field. Yeah, I mean. Xavier and Howard is a true number one. He's very good.

And then Ramsey is probably capable of being a true number one. But at this point in his career, maybe he's best served not. He's just in an ideal situation for where he's at in his career. Right. I like Miami mixes up their coverages. I know they do play a ton of man. You're not wrong about that. They also play a good mix of cover three.

They're mixing some cover two. We know Ramsey's pretty good in that off zone. But I think, you know, he needs to be in a scheme that's going to mix it up. The way Miami plays are cover three, too. It's not necessarily that off zone. They do press a little bit more and play cover three. I think Ramsey is really good in press. So I like him in this single high look a lot more than what he was doing in L.A.

the last couple years. L.A. system was so bunk. It was just gross. Once Brandon Staley left, they were basically playing like 17 yards off the ball, and just allowing everything to be completed in front of them. Let me go watch the Buffalo tape from week one last year. It was egregious. egregious. Oh my gosh. It's like and you'd think that they'd play more downhill and we're launching

into probably the wrong thing here, but just because I've been just because of the amount of times I've watched it. Like they didn't play downhill. They played super soft coverage. It was just a bad mix of everything. Yeah. And it really was. It was weird too because they had a good pass rush when Donald was healthy and the rest of the D line there was healthy. So there's no reason to give free completions underneath when you're going to force the ball out quickly anyways. Right. It's just, this didn't make any sense.

I think Ramsey thrives in this system. I think he might have a little extra pep in his step this year because of it. So yeah, I too ranked Miami. Also, they're, their slot guy. His name is, Kadar Kohu. Yep. Kadar Kohu. He really exceeded expectations last year.

He was arguably their best corner. So I think that's great. They have Cam Smith who provides them legit depth on the outside. Nick Needham has started a lot of games for them at Slot as well. So between Kodoo and Needham, they've got depth. That slot is like they seem pretty well covered. So not only are the top heavy, but they're also pretty deep. And I like that.

I came Smith is one of my favorite corners in this draft too, by the way. Yeah. It reminds me a lot of Pat Sertan, obviously not the same chops necessarily coming out, but similar body type, wingspan, you know, plays very similarly. So I'm a big Cam Smith guy. Really like what they've got going on there in Miami. So they are also my number one. Who's your number two?

My number two is the Eagles. Ooh, okay. The Eagles were more four. They were your four. Yep. Yeah, for me. My top five was like a tier. Yeah, top five was like a tier.

Yeah. Actually, no, four. So. Yeah, I just top the bottom again. similar to Miami. I mean, Darius Slay, he's proven himself. He's near, he's, what, he's a 30 now, but he still, you know, goes, goes one-on-one with every number one receiver and performs well week and week out.

Bradbury's an awesome number two. Maddox plays well in the slot. And then they got Greedy Williams, who has been injured and not, like, totally there every year, but still a guy that came out. highly touted and has played snaps in Cleveland. I think that he could thrive in the Eagle system. And then they went and got Ringo, which, you know, the value that they got him in, I think what, they got him in the fourth round.

Yeah. Like the value there of a guy that, you know, was supposedly, I mean, pre or mid-college season, end of college season, he was being touted as CB1. obviously things change during the draft process, but still, he's a guy that, again, I think has a lot of upside and they can, and with the depth that he provides and being able to work him in a little bit, it gives him a great number five at the quarterback spot. I just think top the bottom, the Eagles, you know, they showed it last year and I think they're going to continue to show it. They just look like they have a great squad at cornerback. For sure. I mean, Slay and Bradbury are an excellent one-two punch.

Slay's obviously getting a little older. Bradbury, what I love about him, man, he's proved the concept on three different systems. He was obviously very good in Carolina, went to New York, was very good in their system, which was very different than what he was doing in Carolina. Those people who, they play a more similar brain

to what he did in Carolina, but it's still different. It's still a lot more off-type stuff, so, you know, really, really zone-heavy. Yeah. I think Bradbury is, like, low-key. He might be better than Slay at this point, in his career. Point being, though, they have two legit number ones.

Right. Real question mark for them and the reason I had them four and not high and four still obviously very high, but just slot depth is my big concern. I think Ringo and Greedy Williams are good outside depth. Yeah. If an anti-Matics gets hurt, what do they do? Is it Kvon Wallace? Is it like they lost Gardner Johnson, who was a safety for them?

Yeah. I think he gave them confidence that if Maddox got her. Maddox has been banged up the last couple years. That's why I'm bringing this up. But, you know, Chaunty Gardner Johnson gave them confidence, you know, if Maddox got hurt, they could play him in the slot. I just, that's my only real question. It's just Maddox is a fine three. He's a fine slot corner.

But if he goes down, they don't really have anything behind him that can play in the slot. Yeah, which is it, which, yeah, that's a legit concern. But again, yeah, if he stays healthy, though, it's, you know, probably, it probably jumps up your rankings almost. Like, let's say he stays healthy for the whole year. probably move up to three or two for you, I bet. Sure. For sure. One thing that's interesting, too, about the Eagles, is they play a ton of cover four.

There aren't a lot of teams who have cover fours, their primary coverage anymore. Yeah. Vigio did it with the Bears a few years back. But this day and age, it is pretty rare. Philly is one of the teams that use a ton of cover four. So what I love, too, is the way they rotate their safety. So they'll give you a lot of the same look pre-snap, and then post-snap. And then post snap, you'll end up in a, you know, you're shifting from a single high to a two high cover four or vice versa where they're showing too high and they're coming back with a, you know, rotating a guy up and dropping a guy out into like a, you know, single high cover three.

So I think the way they rotate those safeties and mix up the zone looks is good for the corners. It helps, you know, it just slows down the quarterback's processing just a titch, which is enough to sometimes, you know, recover if you got beat. So big fan of what they do there in Philadelphia. And actually, addition by subtraction, too, with homeboy going to Arizona. I was just about to say, if you ask Chris, the upside of this group is even higher because of the departure of their defensive coordinator. Yep. So my number two, Steve, was Dallas. And I'm going to contradict myself because the reason I had Philly at four was, was,

depth at slot. Yeah. Dallas has no depth at slot either. But Stefan Gilmore and Trayvon Diggs is just such an insane one-two punch. Gilmore was incredible last year.

People are sleeping on him. I think because the way he was like, it didn't really work out in Carolina. It was like a one-year deal and then he got traded again to the Colts or whatever. I think people don't realize that he's still a top 10 corner in the league easily. and Trayvon Diggs is a ball hawk.

I think their skill sets pair with each other so well. Yeah. Skill more be that eraser. Like we're going to put them on your CB or your wide receiver one and that's going to be his role. And then now this allows Diggs to not necessarily worry about that and just be who he is, which is a ballhawk. The guy is going to take some risks. But it's better to take risks when you're checking a number two versus number three. I just think this duo is nasty, super nasty.

and I'm a huge, huge fan of this duo. Yeah, I had Cowboys at number four. I agree. I mean, Trayvon Diggs took another step last year. I mean, the year he had all of his interceptions, the 11 interception game, there was always the pushback of, well, he gave up X amount of yards.

Last year, turnovers obviously didn't say the same. 11 interceptions is insane, but he still forced turnovers, but his down-in, down-end, out performance took a leap. And so he like he has entered himself into like the legitimate CB1 conversation, whereas I think there was a lot of, like I said, there was a lot of pushback from the previous year.

And I think he took, he took that step. And yeah, and then, yeah, Gilmore just unfortunately got buried in Indianapolis where just a poor, poor team, poor performance around him. It just, you know, it was kind of a struggle for. for him. This year, I mean, he's playing with the best defense he's ever played with. It probably sent, I mean, since New England at least, that like he's going to have the clock on him guarding a guy is not going to be as long because of the pass rush that Dallas offers. And I like that's going to help him so much. And again, like you said, having digs on the opposite side, I mean, if you're a quarterback, like, you're either looking at a shutdown corner on one side or a guy. who reads and reacts to the ball so well and can force her over so well,

it's, it's a brutal situation to play against. Like, what Dallas has set up on their defense, honestly starting with their defensive line and their quarter, cornerbacks, it's, it's going to be something to watch this year.

It's going to be a lot of fun to watch. Yeah, Dallas has sneakily improved, like, in a lot of areas on their team. It is interesting that so far, you know, we've talked about three teams,

Miami, Dallas, and Philly. All three of those teams were also in our wide receiver rankings. So it's like, hey, maybe good teams know how to prioritize certain positions. It's almost like they're two of the most important positions on the field. Yeah, just leaving that out there. Effecting the past game is obviously very, very important. So one underdog here too is Kelvin Joseph. He was their second round pick, top 50 pick in 2021, was basically,

entire first season with a torn ACL was slow coming back last year had a I think you only played like 150-ish snaps and had moments where he looked pretty good I wonder if they might try him in the slot at all I'm he's a bigger guy he's six two but um really really fluid mover really fast guy yeah top he is legit so um that could you know that that that's a at worst I think he gives them some outside depth. Duran Bland and Nashon Wright are, you know, slot guys. So I think Kelvin Joseph gives them some good outside depth. But that's an underrated aspect to their group because I think most people are listing

him as like their CB5 when in reality he's probably their third best corner. And that's saying something because Duran Bland played well last year. I mean, for him having to step in and play when I don't think Dallas expected him to play as many snaps as he did, he performed very well and he held up. his end of the bargain. I like to have him as a depth piece as a guy that legitimately can just step in and you don't lose too much, there's a lot to be said about that as well. For sure.

All right. That was my two. Throw us your three. My number three, I went with the Jets. Okay, okay, okay. They were my number five. We're definitely more synced up than I thought we would be here. Yeah, I saw Scardner.

Obviously, what he did last year was insane. He exceeded everybody's expectations and for where he got drafted and everything for him to perform the way he did was, I mean, I don't even think his biggest supporters anticipated him doing that. And I don't really see a drop off coming because it wasn't fluky stuff. It was just legitimate shutdown corner stuff. Like it was just legit. and DJ Reed, I think that he, because of Sauce, doesn't get talked about enough, but I really, really like what DJ Reed is and what he does as a player. I think that he's a great number, great number two next to Gardner.

I think, like, he can do so many things at corner. And then Michael Carter the second, I'm not as high on, but again, when you have, when you have guys next to him like Reed and Gardner, you know, he has a little bit of protection there. And just overall, again, they're a good team. And I like Bryce Hall as well as a depth piece. It's just like, again, there's a reason that that defense was so good last year. And it really, like, for them, it really started back to front.

What they were able to do in the secondary helped, help them be what that defense is. And I expect a lot of these guys to take a step forward this year with the rejuvenation, the hopeful rejuvenation of the offense and not having to be on the field as many times as they were on the field last year because I have to imagine that those guys were gassed after every game with the amount of turnovers, three and outs that they had to endure and to still put up these statistics and to still defend the past the way that they did. I think that that's why I have them there is that, you know, I expect them to take a step forward because of another year of development, another year of being together.

just a year of potentially not having to worry about three to four turnovers per game. Yeah. You know, you didn't say anything that was wrong. I mean, shoot, sauce gardener's phenomenal. He's made an argument that he's the best corner in the league after one season. The only reason, like, so just because of sauce, I couldn't let them get out of the top five. That's why they're five for me. Right.

I'm more hesitant on them to put them, I guess, higher. is because DJ Reed, like, there's something, like, he was phenomenal last year. He was a top 10 corner. My only concern is, like, this is a guy who, he's on his third team. He's only 5'9. Like, good corners typically don't move around as much quickly, too. Like, I think he came to the league in 2018. He's already on his third team.

Played for the 49ers for a couple of years. Played for the Seahawks for a couple years. And now, it's like, why did two teams give up on him? I'm just hopeful that it's not Fool's Gold. I'm hopeful what we saw last year. is what he does again this year. If he recaps and comes back just as strong as he was last year, then yeah, they're for sure a top three unit to me.

I'm just, I guess, a little skeptical of what he brings to the table. Michael Carter, kind of the same thing. I didn't think he was a high pedigree guy coming into the league. He played out of his mind last year. So I don't know. If those two specifically kind of keep it up and play at the same level, then, yeah, they're easily a top three unit. I'm kind of predicting a little bit more of a regression.

And I also don't know that sauce can like repeat what he did last year. See, and that's my, that is my concern with them is that you have, we have seen in the past a guy jump out at corner and play really well and then have a small regression the next year. I think that that potentially could come. Again, from what we've seen on tape, I don't necessarily think that's going to happen. But, I mean, obviously the potential is there. I mean, like you said, to go from first year to potentially being the number one cornerback in the NFL, it's inevitable that there's a potential for a drop off there. When you reach the peak, there's nowhere to go but down. Yeah, for sure.

And honestly, like, whether you're looking at our data set or anyone else's data set, cornerback play is the least sticky year over year. It's really hard to be consistent. Now, you don't have massive swings where a guy's really good, then he's bad, but usually to hit an elite season and hit multiple of them, there's very few guys that do that. This is why I'm so high in Darius Slay. This dude, outside of like a six-game stretch in Detroit during the end of the Matt Patricia era, this dude has been exactly the same guy for a decade. Yes. It's incredible how consistent he is. He hasn't had that elite crazy on the best corner in the league season, but he also hasn't had a season where you're like, he's probably not.

a top 15 guy. Like he's in somewhere between one and 15 every single season. Yeah. It's absolutely what Darius Slay is done. So that, I mean, that's why I'm such a big sleigh guy. But, yeah, I think Sauce might have a slight regression because I just, I don't know that he can keep up elite corner. If he, if he does, oh my God, this guy is going to be a Hall of Famer.

But that is why I believe in Sauce, though, is that like Darius Slay, I think what Darius Slay and has made Darius Slay so well is his ball skilled. He's amazing at getting his hands on the ball. He leads, if you do any metric, three, four, five years of the past X amount of years, he's either leading or at the top in past breakup numbers. So, like, the guy just has great ball skills. And I see that similarly with sauce where he just has really good ball skills. He just is very intuitive.

And he just knows how to get his hands on the ball, knows how to fight through receiver's hands, knows where to be and when to be there. and Slay's very similar in that. And so that's why I think that, you know, it wasn't fools, and I don't see a big drop off is because of his ball skills and because of his ability to just stay sticky to a receiver. It does remind me of Darius Slay a little bit. And so that's why I feel confident about him because of that, those intangibles,

that innate ability to just find the ball, get to the, the ball and make a play on it. Not a lot of, like, if you watch, not a lot of corners have that instinctive ball skills. It's a little bit tough for some guys, but sauce, slay, Ramsey, like the guys that you see at the top, they're the guys that get to the ball and know how to play the ball. Yep. All right. My number three is the Los Angeles Chargers.

Where did you have them? I had them at seven. Seven, okay. Cool. I kind of figured you might be lower on them because J.C. Jackson had such a pitiful year last year. That's... But the Chargers have, in my opinion, the most underrated corner in the entire NFL, and that is Michael Davis. This guy, he gets slept on constantly.

Like, when we're talking best cornerback units, no one even utters the man's name. No. And he is a top 15 guy for several, three, four years in a row now, guys, since he took over as a starter there. he's been very very good very solid you put into the mix asante samuel junior is excellent in his own right i don't even need j c jackson to get back to where he was in new england i just need him to be like above average and i'm and this is a top you know three unit for me if jc jackson gets to where he was or even close to that oh my god we're cooking with gasoline with this unit this is we talked about this unit last year as being elite, elite, elite, because the potential with J.C. Jackson,

Yeah. Asante St. Abel Jr. and Michael Davis. And what I really like about them is all their skill sets complement each other so well. Like Asante is a zone phenom. This guy has elite ball skills, just like his daddy. And the charges are going to mix in some really cool disguised zone coverages where they're doing a lot of safety rotations, slot walk back, safety's walking up. they're going to be doing a lot of fun stuff like that. They also play a good amount of man, which is helpful for J.C. Jackson,

because that's what he's best at. Michael is good at both cover three and cover one. I just really love how these guys compliment each other. I think they can be game playing specific with this group. Assuming J.C. Jackson is fully healthy and ready to rock, I love this unit. Like, it really, really do. And then you mix on top, their pass rush is pretty good.

Like, they're not going to be tested that often. Just like the same thing that could be said for Dallas. It's like one of those guys ever going to get tested. Right. Good luck. You know, I mean, I think cities are in a similar situation here. Do you think nobody talks about Michael Davis because he wears number 43? It could be.

Could be. Because every time I see it on the field, I'm like, that's 40s numbers for a cornerback. I just don't like it. Yeah, for those that want to know how good Michael Davis is, he, so they had a guy by the name of Casey Hayward Jr. in L.A. former or also san diego he was there too but kesey hayward junior was a top 10 corner his entire 10th la they let him walk for like not a lot of money to go with michael davis junior instead i think when heyward junior left he went to the raiders and he got paid like eight million bucks that next year which for which for a corner who has like legit who like at that time had a legit upside yeah that's

It's not a lot for that position. Yep. But now he's down, he's down in Atlanta, right, Casey Hayward, Jr? Yeah. He's a lot older. But David missed a beat with Davis starting in that spot. So anyways, yeah, that's why I like the Chargers. I just think they're, you know, if J.C. Jackson is, he definitely needs to bounce back.

So I'm projecting a little bit. But even if he just gives them like above average corner play, I think this unit is phenomenal. Yeah, the upside's there. J.C. Jackson was the one that scared me off of it. I really like Asante Samuel Jr. But, yeah, if J.C. Jackson can get back to what he was and the reason why they signed him, then absolutely. I mean, I could see them jumping up to, like, compete for, you know, top three units. Like, that's the upside they have with J.C. Jackson there.

It's just a matter of, you know, last year scared a lot of people with being injured. with being injured and then the performance was just not even close to what it was in New England. So if he can bounce back, the upside for this unit is pretty insane. Agreed. All right. We've done my top five scattershot style. We've done your top four in order. Throw your number five.

Number five is I put the, and now I'm questioning it. but yeah i'm going with the cleveland browns okay this is our first big time discrepancy and this is mainly that i believe in i believe in the players and now that they're now that joe woods is gone i i just think that this unit's due for a bounce back like denzil ward is Again, another guy that is continually at the top when it comes to, like, corner rankings. And like Greg Newsom, his rookie year was insane. Last year he had a bit of a drop off. You're still okay, though.

He's still pretty good. Yeah, he's still a great player. And then I like Martin Emerson. He showed up and played well when he was called upon. I just think that, you know, I'm hoping for a bounce back with a little bit new structure, or a little bit new, a little bit new flavor in the defensive room. Like, this was one of the best teams in man coverage. Like, Cleveland Browns and man coverage was one of the best teams.

It was when they went into zone, that things got really, really dirty, really quickly. And so I'm hoping that they lean more into that because Newsom is a stud in man-to-man. And I think that Ward is all, like Ward and Newsom are. studs in man-to-man. I think that if they lean into that more, the upside of this unit is there. It was just, again, it was when they got into zone coverage, you saw so many communication breaks, so many just like lack of, again, I think it was purely communication or scheme or whatever, but it just, whenever they dipped into zone, that's when teams gashed them.

You would just see blatant holes all over the field, but when they went into man-to-man, it completely flipped a script. And it's a team that, you know, Miles Garrett's there. He's going to provide support. He's going to provide the pass rush. I think that, again, I'm banking on upside here. I'm banking on what they can be and what they've shown to be at times. I mean, again, last year was a tough year the year before.

They were, I think they were top two unit, like statistically. Man and zone. They played incredibly well. It was a shutdown unit. And I think that they got away from it last year for whatever reason. You know, we're not in the room so I can't speak to exactly what happened. But I think that leaning more in the lack of stability. And I think that affected.

So the team in general just had a lack of stability. I think with the quarterback situation. Yeah. You know, being suspended for so long. You know, having to make that transition. It just the whole team was off for most of the year. Which is fair. There, yep.

And so this is, yeah, this is a bet on upside and a bet on what I've seen them do. And then I think that they'll do it more consistently this year with less noise around the organization, more focused on the football, whether that's right or not. But there will be more focus there. And I think that we'll see a jump from them and we'll see, you know, more of a push to what they were in 2021 rather than what they were last year. Yeah. So I didn't put them in my top 10. I had them listed as an honorable mention, but I'm just sitting here thinking,

you know what? I think I am going to slide them in 10. I'm making a change on the fly. They're going to be my 10th overall team. I like all the points you made specifically. My one big concern with them was ball production, and I was just looking at interception numbers, and, you know, Ward only had three,

and then Emerson and Newsom, vine for zero picks. Then I looked at forcing completion rate, and both Ward and Emerson were top 15. Yeah. Which is, that's good ball production. So I think interception luck will change a little bit for them. Newsom is the one guy who's got to get his hands on the ball more. But I think Ward is, he's a fantastic corner.

He can play zone or man. I'm not too concerned with scheme for him. The other guys, I think, are better equipped to play a little bit more man. But, yeah, this is a really good unit. You made some good points. It's a really solid unit. Depth-wise, not too sure. Not a big Cam Mitchell guy, not a big AJ Green guy.

But those starting three, they're studly. Yeah. So I moved them to 10 officially. I wanted to get them inside the top 10 there. All right. Moving on. My number 6 team is the Buffalo Bills. And I went back and forth with this.

I had them lower. moved them higher, moved them lower again, then moved them higher. Ultimately, I just settled on, you know, Tredavius White is one of the best corners in the league. Kair Elam and Christian Bedford, they were both rookies last year. They both played pretty well for rookies. They had bad moments for sure. When Buffalo's passers fell apart, the whole secondary fell apart. Right. And some of there was a lot of injuries as well. Tradavis White missed a lot of the year. There were multiple weeks where we didn't know who was playing corner for Buffalo. So some of the stats as a team look bad, but I don't think it was on the shoulders of this starting unit. Taryn Johnson would be the third guy there, the slot guy, plus they use a lot of three safety stuff.

They have really good safety play. We shouldn't count them into the cornerback room, but because Jordan Poyer will play over the slot or Michael Hyde will come play over the slot, you kind of have to factor that in a little bit. Yeah. I just think top to bottom, they're just a really good unit, solid unit. I'm expecting Kair Elam to take a big step forward this year. And then we already know White and Taryn Johnson are good. Yeah. And like you said, what Elam, Dane Jackson, Christian Benford, guys who, if you look at the depth chart right now are listed at like two, four and five all got snaps at like cornerback one, cornerback two.

Yeah. And, you know, like the Von Miller going down, their pressure rate dip pretty significantly post his injury. And I mean, I don't know any, any cornerback unit that does. well without a at least a solid pass rush in front of them. It's just the nature of the business. And like you said, I think that'll bounce

back. They've prioritized rushing the pass. They're in the offseason. And I think that, yeah, this is, it's a unit that if Elam takes another step this year and Trudevius White returns back to what he has been, then, yeah, this is, I mean, it's a great, it's a great unit all around. Johnson's

consistently, I think, not talked about enough as of what he does in the slot and what he does and run support. He's a great, he's a great at slot corner. Yeah, absolutely. So, like, yeah, I really like their unit. I had them, I had them at number seven. But yeah, I, I, I feel you charges at seven. Sorry. Yeah, that's right. I had charges at seven. It was bills at eight. Yeah, I do like what this team is. And again, it's a lot of guys that have legitimate snaps that can come in and play if they need them too. So there's a lot of value to that of having guys that have seen action in meaningful games, too.

Like, it's not like this is a unit that was coming in and playing for a five and 10 team where they're getting snaps and those types of game. It was a team that was still making a playoff run and still going into the playoffs. like these guys were getting snapped. So there's a lot of, I think there is a lot of value to that type of experience and how deep that goes all the way to quarterback five. Yes, sir.

All right, who is your number six team? Number six, I had the Denver Broncos. Nice. Another honorable mention for me. Yeah. This, I mean, it starts with Patrick. Patrick Sertan for me. I mean, again.

That's also what ends for me, no, the problem. I like K.1 Williams. I think he's got legit chopped, and I think that, you know, again, this is another team that I'm expecting to take a step forward, hopefully because of offensive production. Like, this is another unit similar to the Browns that was on the field constantly because of their offense. and just because of that, it's going to break eventually if you give an offense enough opportunities

and especially playing in the division that they play in. I think that this year, if they have a little bit better offense, the defense won't be out there as much. And Cirtan, I think, is a, I mean, he's a top five corner right now. He's, in my opinion. He's absolutely legit. And again, I think K.1 Williams, is going to be a legitimate contributor.

I think that he's going to take a step forward. I just, it is the other side opposite Certan that, you know, it's a little bit wishy-washy, but again, I think I'm placing value on what CERTAN is a little bit higher, similarly to how you kind of did with the Raiders with Devante Adams in our receiver rankings. This is kind of what I'm doing with Denver is I really like,

I really like their scheme, and I think Sartan, it just, he elevates that unit so much. That's fair. Yeah, I think Sertan's probably a top three guy, to be honest with you. So I can see that. All right. So you are, your number seven was the Chargers. Your eight was Buffalo. My number seven, this is the first big one where you're going to be like, what?

Is the Houston Texans. Okay. Nobody thinks that Houston, Texans, have anything good at any position. I think they have a good cornerback room. Derek Steenly, Jr., Stephen Nelson, Desmond King, Shaquille Griffin, Tevier Thomas. This is insane depth for a team that's considered to be horrible. Yeah. Stingley, he didn't play like it last year, but he has a true number one lockdown corner potential.

Yeah. Stephen Nelson has been a good player in the league. Desmond King's been one of the better slot corners in the league since he, you know, came into the league, played with the Chargers for a while. He'd be talked about a lot more if he was on another team. Absolutely. And positional clarity, I think, is important for some fans. You know, he was, I think, drafted as technically like a safety, and then they moved him to slot corner. And I don't think people have caught on yet that he's a slot corner, mostly.

Shaquille Griffin is insane depth on the outside. Tevier Thomas was their best corner. Tevier Thomas, if you listen to him. to like PFF, he was like a top 20 corner in the league last year. And he's their fifth corner. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. I just think the depth is crazy.

And they have the potential with, um, with Derek Stingley Jr. To, to really get a true shutdown. And I think everyone else gets better because of him. Shaquille Griffin, like I already mentioned it, but it can't be said enough. This is their number four corner. And he's played a ton of snaps in the NFL. And he's played, he's had some very high level play. Like, this is a legitimately good point.

Yeah. You've got paid from serious cash, too. Yeah, I mean, yeah, Stingley's legit, and I forgot about Desmond King, honestly. And that's why I said that people forget about him because I forgot about him. I forgot he was in Houston. And, I mean, this is, like, it was a guy that was pretty highly touted when he became a free agent. It was, there was a lot of buzz around where he was going to go. He obviously ended up going to Houston.

but it's yeah I think this is a really solid unit and I think we're going to be talking more about them in not necessarily this season but next season as the team kind of takes a step forward but I think you're going to see it come alive a little bit more I think they're going to be more with having Stroud there they're going to get a little bit more national attention just out of the nature of having a rookie quarterback in the or quarterback in the building and so I think we'll start to see the development of it. I'm really I like I said I think they'll take a big step going in in 2024 I worry about their past run the pass rush in front of them right now

but sure yeah the the players are there and the guys are there they have a like you said just a super deep room yeah all right let's see your eight was Buffalo I'll throw out my eight the Green Bay Packers my eight were they in their top ten yeah They were at number nine for me. Number nine. Okay, so we're pretty close there. So Green Bay, I mean, Jair is probably,

if I had to just throw out my top three corners, I'd probably say sauce, Certan, and then Jair. I think Jair is phenomenal. His positional really is insane. Not a lot of guys can play any, literally anywhere against any archa type receiver. Yeah.

But his quickness and his fluid change of direction skills, like he basically, matches up with those really tough guys to cover. And he does it in the slot. And it's a very underrated value that he brings at the table. Stokes and Roussel, they're both bigger guys. Roussel matches up well with possession type receivers. Eric Stokes matches up really well with like burners, just true speed guys.

Yeah. I mean, he's got that elite deep speed. I just like the way this unit complements each other. I think Kayshan Nixon is a sending player as well. Yeah. Had some draft pedigree. I know he had some off-field issues right when he got into the league, which landed him here in Green Bay as the fifth corner. But I think he's some decent depth there, too.

Yeah, like you said with Jair, I mean, you go from one game, watching the Jets, and he's inside guarding Garrett Wilson. You go to another game, and he's sticking outside. He travels across the entire field. Not a lot of corners still do that. He does that every game. And I, yeah, Kishaw Nixon's a good. I really like Kishon Nixon. And I think that he's going to, I think he's going to be an even bigger contributor this year.

So, yeah, I like the Green Bay Packers. Eric Stokes just kind of worried me a little bit. He had a down your last year, for sure. Yeah, yeah. And he, you know, it was a little bit boomer bust for him. I think that, again, another team that had a lot of noise around them last year, I think potentially changing the guard at quarterback, just new, all around. around in that respect, I think that this is a unit that could benefit from that and benefit from

just being able to focus on football instead of having to focus on blocking out all the noise and then playing football as well. So I'm excited to see what this unit is. And I mean, the Green Bay Packers defense, I think, has insane up, incredible upside. I think they have the potential to be a top five to seven unit this year. And last year, wasn't as good, but I think that they could return to because of what they have in the cornerback room. Yeah. For sure.

Their defense is just solid all the way around for sure. Yeah. I mean, they're a candidate. It seems like the last five years, they've been a candidate to be a top five defense. So this is not a different year for them. Which, you know, they haven't quite delivered on that yet. I think 2021 they are pretty damn good. but last regress for sure, and it's, it's, well, it's kind of a wait and see thing.

Can that pass rush really get where it needs to be? They play, like, so one thing they do that's super strange, Steve, is they play six and seven DBSs, more than any team in the league, pretty much. Yeah, crazy. They literally don't care about stopping the run. No. They have played on first down, but just don't care. They put so much responsibility on Devandre Campbell to be, yeah.

to be the monster in the middle. Yep. Like, yeah, they value Devonjo Camel and they value Kenny Clark to be like, okay, we're putting it all on you guys to stop any interior runs. Hopefully we can stop outside runs, but good luck passing on us. It's basically their entire mentality because they want to be the most athletic unit on the field no matter what. Yes. All right. Number nine.

So your nine was Green Bay. Yep. Mine is Tampa Bay. Okay. And I know, I know what you're thinking here. They were supposed to be phenomenal last year, and they kind of played badly. They had some injury issues. Actually, two years in a row now they've had injury issues.

Sean Murphy Bunting leaves to go to Tennessee, but they still have Carlton Davis and Jamel Dean and Zion McCollum. I really like this unit. I think Davis and Dean is such an underrated outside duo. I think they're top 10. I really do. I think sometimes their stats aren't flattering, but you've got to remember Todd Bulls puts them in the most insane situations imaginable. Yeah.

And they're going to get beat for some weird plays, but it's not necessarily the corner's faults. They're having to carry a lot of responsibility. I think I'm higher on Carlton Davis and most people, and I'm a noted Jamel Dean lover. Yes. I love to do that's my argument there. Yeah, they don't eat, I didn't even have an honorable mention, really, but I see where you're coming from with it.

Sean Murphy bunting leaving, Sean Murphy bunting leaving was kind of a concern for me. And like you said, it's been, it was a tough year last year. It was a tough year the year before. So I'm looking to see hopefully a resurgence from them. But yeah, Jamel Dean's a stud. and Carlton Davis can deliver and be that guy and he's shown it. It's just, you know, again, it's been a tough couple years for them because, like you said, I think because of the system

that they're thrown in, it's going to happen to them. But I can see where you got there. I don't agree with it. I don't think they're a top 10 unit, but I can see the path of how you got there. Right on. Well, then throw out your number 10 team. My number 10 team is the New Orleans Saints. Oh, I did not see that one coming. Yeah, I really like Marsh on Lattimore. Again, another guy that is consistently top 10 corner.

And I like what Paulson-Dibbo did last year. I think he played well, and I think that it's, they were on not a great team, but I think that he showed chops to be a legitimate outside corner. And then Roby is bounced around in the league, but I still think he's a solid slot corner. I think that those three guys across the board, I like what they do. And I think that they deserve to be mentioned in the top 10.

Alante Taylor played a bunch of outside corner for them last year, too. Not sure if that was because of injury or what, but you know he was uh at one point in time he was a very highly touted prospect alanta taylor was and then he had a really bad combine kind of fell on some boards where do they end up taking him do you remember i don't but if you know they take him the second round they did take him in the second round um there were a lot of people who thought he was going to have to convert to safety because this combine was so bad but um he he played decently you know decently well for a rookie last year so I can see it.

I think they have some depth. Seems like Latimore's best football is behind him, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's bad. Right. But yeah. I also like, I mean, Dennis Allen's system, I think is so cornerback friendly.

And I think that's why, I mean, that's why you see New Orleans, you know, in the upper half of the NFL and defense for the last five years. Yeah. Like, they're always up there.

And so I really think that scheme combined with the guys that they have in the room, I really like what they can be and where they can go. And like I said, I think that they, like I said, they're a top 10 unit to me. And I could be completely wrong. But I stand by that I think, you know, Adivo and Alante Taylor are going to continue to ascend. Right on. All right. We got to, we got to get out of here.

but I did want to throw out two honorable mention teams really quick. And they're not honorable mention as, and I think they're close to top 10 right now, but I think when the season ends, maybe they are. And one of those teams is the Seattle Seahawks. Yep, I knew that. Kevin Withers team is a freaking baller. Tarique Wollin had an incredible rookie year,

and he's going to get better. Those two guys make a formidable one-two punch. Kobe Bryant and the slot is legit. Michael Jackson also playing the slot a little bit. So I think they have a chance to be a top 10 unit when it's all said and done. The Detroit Lions also, when you look at what the Lions have done, their two best corners last year were Will Harris and Jerry Jacobs, undisputedly. Will Harris was a revelation in the slot as like a big slot corner.

Jerry Jacobs, if he had any modicum of ball skills, he'd be a top 15 corner in the NFL. Because his coverage is tight on every play. He just doesn't see the ball and he gets up catches because of that. And he's another guy. that's very versatile, can jump outside and inside. Plays very well in both positions. He's actually kind of a freak athlete, too. Point being, those two guys were their best corners last year,

and they're now both reserve players. Yeah. Corner four and five, the lines brought in a whole new starting cast in Camson, Manuel Mosley and Chauncey Gardner Johnson. Johnson obviously going to play in the slot. Maybe mixing at safety a little bit as well, but he's mostly a slot corner. And then they drafted Brian Branch, my guy from Alabama. to play the Chauncey Gardner-Johnson role after Chauncey-Garndor Johnson

inevitably leaves after this year. But they're deep. They've got multiple guys that can play in the slot. They got three, four guys that can play on the outside. Chase Lucas was a seventh round pick last year. He looked really good in the preseason and then unfortunately missed the rest of the year with an injury. He's back.

This team, like massive, I think what they have this year compared to last year is actually incredible. probably maybe the arguably the most upgraded unit in the entire NFL. So while I think most people would consider them like somewhere in the 20 range, I think maybe they have a chance to sneak into that top 10 when the season's all said and done. Yeah. I mean, like you said, the slot, I mean, slot position, slot receivers becoming more important year and year out. And I think that Detroit might have one of the most solid slot defending rooms in the league right.

now it just you know right now it's really the question marks of the outside corners can mostly stay healthy is cam sutton what we all think he can't what we think he is and so it's it's really the big questions that quarterbacks one and two obviously like we said they do have jerry jacobs who they can in a pinch throw on the outside and feel confident about him and will harris can also jump on the outside he didn't perform as well out there he was definitely what he definitely showed his chops in the slot. But I think that, yeah, like the range of outcomes for this unit is very large. Like, it could go a lot of different ways just with all the new faces in the room.

How do those gel together? You know, does everybody stay healthy? Like, it's, there's, like I said, yeah, there's just a wide range of outcomes. but the best outcome of this unit is very, is a very, very high. Yep. For sure. All right. Let's get out of here, Steve.

That's going to do it. We'll be back next week with another positional breakdown, a top 10 unit breakdown. I'm not sure in the position yet. We've got to talk about that, Steve. But we'll be back nonetheless. And also the free trial of the data product is next week, or I should say the first free trial. The beta is next week. If you're not sure how to get involved with that, once all the tweets go out,

make sure you reach out because we would like to get you involved. Yeah, we want as many eyes on it to help us work out the Kings and make sure it is the best thing that could possibly ever come out for football stats. For sure. All right. Thank you, everyone, for listening. I am Brett Whitefield. This is Stephen O'Rourke, and we are out.

Thanks for tuning in to this edition of the Fantasy, Points Podcast. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review on your favorite platform. And come join the roster at FantasyPoints.com.