Fantasy Football Today - Fantasy Football YESTERDAY: Mount Rushmore for Each Position (1997-2019) (05/12 Fantasy Football Podcast)

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

The best QBs, RBs, WRs and TEs of the last 23 seasons! There is plenty of debate on today's show. First, let's talk about 2020 and focus on the Browns backfield (5:30). What will Kareem Hunt's role be and will it be big enough to ruin Nick Chubb's Fantasy prospects? ... The Mount Rushmore QBs were fairly easy (11:30), but does Tom Brady belong ahead of Aaron Rodgers? RBs (17:28) were a bit different with Ben actually putting someone other than LaDanian Tomlinson #1. And finding the fourth RB was not easy ... On to WRs (25:30)! The case for and against Randy Moss as the #1 WR of this era, plus did Terrell Owens make the cut? Did Julio Jones? Finally we get to TE (35:25) and Adam is alone with his pick for #1 ... Email us at [e-mail] and tweet us with #AskFFT 'Fantasy Football Today' is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Castbox, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. Follow the new FFT Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/FFToday Follow our FFT team on Twitter: @FFToday, @AdamAizer, @JameyEisenberg, @daverichard, @heathcummingssr, @YardsPerGretch, @BenSchragg Watch FFT on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCviK78rIWXhZdFzJ1Woi7Fg/videos Join our Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/FantasyFootballToday/ Sign up for the FFT newsletter https://www.cbssports.com/newsletter To hear more from the CBS Sports Podcast Network, visit https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Fantasy Football Yesterday from the Sports Division of Columbia Broadcasting System. Phone us at Klondike 5-1212. It's time to dominate your fantasy league, if you have a time machine. Now, here's some swell combination of mr hazer mr richard mr eisenberg mr cummings and mr grouch washington jefferson roosevelt and tomlinson today the mount rushmore of fantasy football at each position. Welcome to fantasy football yesterday. Going back in time to look at 1997 to 2019. Who are the four best at each position?

Not including kicker, of course, or DST quarterback, running back, wide receiver, tight end. I am Adam Azer. And we already heard Jamie and Dave on fantasy football yesterday. That was earlier Monday. We're recording this Monday early evening, but you'll hear this on Tuesday. But we bring in Ben Gretsch, who gave me a very angry email this morning. I hope you're in better spirits today. This is later today. Ben, how are you? I'm feeling great. Yeah, I'm awake now. This first thing in the morning, I was reading about how running backs make defenses better

and or running the ball more makes teams better or something and i i just didn't know what you're talking about yeah yeah you did it that's right and if you had actually heard what i said it would have been incoherent and you still wouldn't have known what i was talking about well dave and jamie are here guys um have have any of you been to the actual mount rushmore? No. No. I have. Oh, you have. How was it? Smaller than I would have guessed. It's like way up on a mountain.

And I mean, it's great. But like the faces aren't, I don't know. You see all these zoomed in pictures. You think their faces are massive. And they're far away, I guess, from the viewing area. So they're kind of like smaller than you picture it, in my opinion.'ve heard that before yeah do you think would you recommend it like should should we go i thought it was pretty pretty cool yeah the other the other thing that was interesting is like the faces are up like kind of on the top part of the ridge of the mountain and then there's just all

this rock below it from when they did it that's just all there still just broken rock and that's like bigger than the faces it's kind of an interesting spectacle when you actually see it, but yeah, I thought it was worthwhile. I think it's a cool part of the country, too, to drive around the Black Hills, South Dakota, and everything. Okay. All right. I'm in. I can do that. Well, I do have one big topic to get to before we get into fantasy football yesterday, but Mount Rushmore, guys, was LaDainian Tomlinson the easiest call as your number one running back?

Or did anybody not have him number one? It was pretty easy. Easiest call. Two top five seasons, including the best season in the history of or in our era, the digital era of fantasy football. Two top five seasons, meaning of all the individual running back seasons from 1997 to through 2019 and Tomlinson had five of them I'm sorry I had two of them had two of the top five two of the top five what's that Ben I said I had Falk first I was the only one and I thought that was interesting because I thought it was kind of splitting hairs and you could go either way with

it um I I kind of had two reasons. One, not so important. Tomlinson had way more points, but when you look at points per game, Falk actually had a slightly higher points per game average in the span that we're looking at. His whole career didn't fall in the span like Tomlinson's did because he played before in 1997. But I had to kind of go back and look at Falk's peak because I started playing fantasy in 1999, but I was 12.

I wasn't like a real serious into it. I started high school in, I guess, 2002. And so I was very much – that's when I really got into it. I was very much there for the Tomlinson era, and I remember how dominant he was. And I think he gets bonus points for just what – like I graded players a little bit based on their average draft positions too like the fact that thompson was the number one back good for you man that's what i did too i think that matters yeah it bumped adrian peterson for me yeah he never had peak seasons because he didn't catch passes but we all knew he was a dominant running back at his peak and we drafted him that

way um but as far as falk and thompson i went back looked. Thompson only was the RB1 one time in that huge season. He finished runner-up a couple of times to Priest-Holmes' biggest seasons. That's why he has two of the top five seasons, and also I think Brian Westbrook's career season. He was a top two back several times, but when you look back at Falk's, I had to kind of look back at it. 1999, 2000, 2001, Falk was the RB1 all three years in that peak, and he had more than 100 points more than the RB3 every year.

There was, in each of those seasons, another back that was at least good enough to be within 100 points of him. And twice it was Edger and James, and then it was Priest-Holmes' first big season with the Chiefs. But Falk was, at that time, so dominant that nobody else in your league, if you had him, could even really compare and compete with you other than maybe one other person could have had a back that was somewhat close. But he was typically in those three seasons well ahead of the RB2 as well. But I saw that peak, and I was like, man, that was even more dominant than LaDainian Tomlinson's peak.

That's what gave me the non-footfall. Did I screw up? Should it have been Marshall Falk? I think Tomlinson had a longer peak, though. He finished second, second, second, fourth, first, and second in six straight seasons. That's pretty crazy. Yeah, that gets you the biggest head on the mountain. Yeah, it's splitting hairs for me. I mean, I don't disagree with you guys at all. All right, all right. Well, we'll get more into that a little bit later.

Big topic, though. Before fantasy football yesterday, here's fantasy football today or fantasy football tomorrow. What if Kareem Hunt is much more involved in the running game than he was in 2019? Look, they sign him. He misses the first eight games. Nick Chubb is rolling. He gets about five carries per game, five and a half carries per game in eight games. But if he's a lot more involved, I don't know that we've discussed that all that much with Nick Chubb.

But that's our big topic today, Jamie. Let's expand on that. Do you think that's possible? Could that be something that hurts Nick Chubb's value and we haven't really investigated that so far? I think we have. But, yes yes it's going to hurt his value i mean you have to assume that he's not just going to be a third down back and only a third down back you know or predominantly a third down back i mean you know you are talking about a former league rushing champion who will have whatever offseason is available to him but the same offseason that

his teammates will have. So I would hope that he's a bigger part of the offense for Cleveland's sake, not necessarily for Nick Chubb's sake, but this is still a team that's going to be very run heavy. And so I think there's enough opportunity for both of these guys. But I mean, Chubb is going to lead the team in carries. He's going to be the one hopefully working in the goal line opportunities and getting touchdown opportunities more so than Kareem Hunt. He's just going to lose in the passing game. To me, him and Derrick Henry are so format dependent from where they go. Both guys are borderline first-round picks in non-PPR,

and in PPR they're mid-second-round picks. Anybody think that Kareem Hunt might take a bigger slice of the pie than people expect? I don't think that happens unless Nick Chubb regresses. And I don't know if we've seen anything to suggest that that's coming. Maybe an injury in training camp could lead to something like that. But the Browns really have it great. They've got maybe the best one-two running back combo in the entire NFL, and I suspect they're going to use him.

But it doesn't necessarily mean that Chubb is going to lose carries on a weekly basis to Kareem Hunt. There could be a game where, for whatever reason, Chubb's just not feeling it. Kareem Hunt gets going. By the end of the game, Chubb has eight carries. Hunt has 15, something like that. But it could also go the other way. And I would imagine it would happen the other way a lot more often because we've already seen it happen that way. And I think Chubb, as good of a talent as Kareem Hunt is, Chubb's better. And I think the Browns, with their improved offensive line and their dedication to their run game and probably

a smarter offense in general, you're going to see both those guys get a lot of work. And there could be a lot of games where both of them are getting 15 touches and Baker's throwing it 20 or fewer times. So I think the offense and the way that they're headed is good for both of the running backs. But I'm not ready to say that Kareem Hunt's going to even be in a 50-50 touch split. No, not 50-50, but five carries per game, five and a half carries per game last year.

Could that be more like eight? Yeah, it could. Adam, this is a way more interesting question you posed than your one on Monday morning. I'll just say that. No, but I agree completely with Dave. I think this could be a setup where both of these guys could wind up being very productive in this offense okay and chubb got pretty much all the

goal line work last year so if they start splitting that up i i mean i see scenarios where chubb is really disappointing it could happen and certainly if the browns passing game stumbles and they're forced to play from behind you know or their defense is bad whatever there's a million ways that team could be bad then theoretically that wouldn't be good for chubb and he would lose work to hunt who is better prepared as of now for the passing game and even but this is the one other point i want to make even if kareem hunt's rushing rush attempt average goes to eight that's two and a half more carries per game i think chubbs could go up two and a half more per game too,

just on the nature of them being run first. Yeah, they were only 22nd in rush attempts last year. Would you guys rather have Nick Chubb or DeAndre Hopkins? I'm taking Hopkins all day in PPR. I'm going to take Chubb. I think he's undervalued. I'll take Chubb in non-PPR. I'm going to take Chubb. I think he's undervalued. I'll take Chubb in non-PPR.

Yeah, same with Dave. I would take Chubb in non-PPR or Hopkins in PPR. Oh boy, what about the forgotten format, the best format, half PPR? Half PPR, Chubb. Yeah, I'd probably lean toward Chubb there too. Specifically because he's a running back and I'd rather

fill that position. Gotcha. Alright, Ben, thank you very much for the compliment. I appreciate that. I'm glad this was a great topic. I hope everybody enjoyed it. You say what you're going to enjoy Twitch tonight, Tuesday night, 7 p.m. Eastern on our Twitch channel, twitch.com slash

FF today. The biggest one year wonders, the biggest breakouts, the worst busts of all time, plus your comments, your questions. We get to interact a lot with our audience. Go to twitch.com slash FF Today. And for all of you Fantasy Football Today listeners, just want to let you know that CBS

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All right, let's do Mount Rushmore. Good plug. Good plug. Thank you. Jamie's all about HQ. He is 90% about HQ, 10% podcast. Is that fair? That's so false. 89% HQ.

80-20. Okay. All right, Mal Rushmore at quarterback. So we each had to submit our top six, the four of us, plus Heath. Did Chris Towers submit? Yes. Draggy B? We had seven people do it.

Okay. So a lot of people do it, and then Chris Towers tallied up the votes, and here's what Mount Rushmore looks like. Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady. Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady. Did anybody have anything other than those four in that order? In that order? I didn't have that order, but I had those four. What were your orders?

Everybody had those four. I had that exact order. What did you guys have? Have you not looked at the results that are compiled? I have, but I'm going to send them to you right now. I want you to say it. I don't want to say it. The consensus.

Mount Rushmore is in this order. Manning, Breeze, Rogers, Brady. Yeah, I know. I just said that. Yeah. And everybody had those before. But they were in different orders. I want to know what your order was.

Because that was my order. My order was just flip-flopping. Brady and Breeze. I'm sorry. No, my order is different flip-flopping uh brady and breeze i'm sorry my no my order my manning breeze brady rogers okay flip-flopping rogers you flip brady and rogers i flipped breeze and manning at the top and brady and rogers i was with you jamie on that i had breeze at the top i mean he was so good for fantasy for so many years in that scenes offense but i can see that the case for Manning, too. I struggle with it, to be honest with you.

Yeah. I didn't think that hard about it. I just knew which four quarterbacks I wanted in there and basically just listed them haphazardly. But Manning was first for me. Then Rodgers. Both of them had two top 10 seasons all time. I think they were the only two quarterbacks to have that. Brady was next with two top 10 seasons all time. I think they were the only two quarterbacks to have that. Brady was next with two top 12 seasons.

Brees had three top 15 seasons in the digital era. But Peyton had the all-time best year. I think that means something. Rodgers has four top 17 seasons. I don't really care what order they're in as long as they're all on the mountain. And at least for now, well, in the era we're talking about, because 2020 is not included, Manning's the only quarterback to be great with two teams.

Yeah, that's a good point. Peyton Manning had three number one finishes. He had the best overall season. He had six straight top three finishes. But Drew Brees also had three number one finishes, and he had nine straight seasons finishing top three. He finished top three in 10 out of 11 seasons at one point. He was unbelievably consistent.

I think, you know, let's just have a little controversy, just to spark it up a little bit, Jamie. I think Tom Brady ahead of Aaron Rodgers is absolute poppycock, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Okay. Justify it be ashamed of yourself. Okay. Justify it. Justify it. Oh, coming out swinging.

Why did you put Brady ahead of Rodney? I mean, I think Dave said it best. Are you debating which president was better on the map? Oh, I debate that all the time. I debated that on Zoom the other day with this random people. You should. You should probably go do that right now instead of hosting the show. Can we get Mike Wright back?

I think they're all a class above everybody else. So sure, you want to put Rodgers ahead of Brady, I'm not going to fight you. The only position where we were so universally in agreement with the four names that should be on this list.

Yeah. There really is no other clear-cut candidate you can make arguments for a couple of guys but you really don't hold comparatively to these four seven different guys filled out our fifth and sixth spot across the the seven of us none of us were were really even consistent with who we thought should be fifth after, after these top four guys. Yeah. Culpepper was the only quarterback that had three consecutive number one finishes.

So yeah, I looked at him. I went with Favre as my fifth, which no one else seemed to pick. I don't think anyone else had in their top six, but like he was good for a while. I don't know. He was good in like 97,

98 at the beginning of this span. Aaron Rodgers finished top two in six out of seven seasons. The only exception, he got hurt. He played nine games in 2013. He finished top two overall in seven of nine seasons at one point. Brady only had one number one finish. So anyway, the order was Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady. That's your Mount Rushmore.

Four of the all-time greats. I think one thing that's interesting we should discuss is who gets knocked off. Like who does Mahomes knock off if he stays? Brady. Yeah, I mean, that makes more sense. How do you not have Brady on the Mount Rushmore, though? Like I get it statistically maybe he doesn't compare never i answer that question yeah yeah right i know but

tough to not longevity matters the all-time greatest list but he's a little overrated because like from fantasy standpoint because i'm i put down i wrote down where tom brady finished Where Tom Brady finished from 2001 to 2019. I'm just going to say the numbers. 22, 8, 11, 10, 2, 7, 1, injured, 7, 6, 3, 3, 14, 11, 2, 21, 3, 11, 14. Not that good. That was pretty damn good. Who's imitating me over there, Jamie? I have a baby in here. Sorry. Time to say hi. him to say hi.

Tell him to say hi. My two-year-old. Yeah. That's awesome. Say hi, Adam. Hi. Say hi, Dave. Hi.

Say hi, Ben. Hi, Ben. Yes. Now say bye-bye. Go. Go, go, go. No turtles. No, no, no.

No, all turtles. All right, bye-bye. Okay, but anyway go, go. No, turtles. No, no, no. No, all turtles. All right. Bye-bye. Okay. But anyway, let's move on to running backs here. And the Mount Rushmore for running backs was LaDainian Tomlinson, Marshall Falk, Priest Holmes, and Adrian Peterson. Interesting.

I didn't think Peterson would get on there, but it is Tomlinson, Falk, Holmes, and Peterson. Dave, what do you think? I think Tomlinson, Falk, and Holmes are obvious. I think they are all absolutely deserving. Tomlinson and Falk, I don't think anybody's going to give any pushback on. Holmes didn't necessarily have longevity, but he did have some amazing years, two top ten seasons in Kansas City. He also had a decent year, not a great year,

but a decent year in Baltimore before he finally broke out with the Chiefs. And Adrian Peterson, honestly, he deserves to be up there. There's no question about it. But there are a lot of other running backs that could make that fourth spot. And maybe if you just don't believe in Preece Holmes or don't think his longevity, his lack of longevity warrants a spot, then maybe it's up for grabs with the other two spots up there. But I think Peterson, the case is pretty obvious. He's been playing great for a high level. He's still playing great. And yeah, the other guys

that I was looking at, McCaffrey made mine, two top 15 seasons, including the second best all time, Todd Gurley, Edger and james i think those guys have certainly shown that they've been great for fantasy as well i i just i think the case for longevity warrants um more consideration for peterson which is something i didn't think of when i handed in my list yeah so well ben you had peterson third i didn't even have peterson in my top six no i had him fifth you're looking at ben schrager i was gonna say it's really interesting that dave said that each of those three uh guys were locks and priest holmes uh i thought was a lock as well and i had him third as did all all of us on this call but um on this pod but heath had

priest holmes fifth and schrager and towers didn't even rank priest holmes dude that's insane and heath has frank gore for like what i guess i said it towers as long as no one put frank gore on their list and of course it was heath you know what let's get shraggy beyond because i need to know how you leave Priest Holmes. Dave said two top ten seasons. He means top ten overall, not like top ten finishes. He had three top two finishes, three straight years as number one or number two running back, and just some of the biggest, most monstrous seasons you've seen from running backs. Shraggy B, what are you doing? Priest Holmes not even in your top six? Are you kidding me?

That's all he had. He did two and a half good years, maybe three good years. That's it. That's not enough for me for the Mount Rushmore. Three great years. But you put Christian McCaffrey on. How could you make that argument? McCaffrey wasn't in my top four. But you still have him on your list ahead of Holmes?

Yeah, that's a pretty good point. But my top four should not include Priest Holmes. Wow. i hate to do this because i'm a young guy too but when were you born again oh the start of the fantasy football era yeah so you were like five when priest homes was that wasn't my son simon that was actually ben tracker talking uh yeah i don't know priest homes the the longevity versus peak thing is always an interesting debate and how did you guys handle that because i feel like if you're putting people on mount rushmore it's not like well he had a long tenure and he was really solid throughout it's like no these are the the ogs like these are the best of the best they have to have some of the best seasons well i i did that by position too because

i think um it matters by position and what am i looking for in my running back i was looking for peak and running back in particular was the one where i said i'm not going to consider longevity that much um and whether that comes to holmes i put mcafree fourth because mcafree already had in 2019 one of the all-time great running back seasons and that to me already pushes him into the because like no running backs have longevity i mean falk and tomlinson did and and and gore and peterson but like just what gore did over 15 years it's incredible but it's not great for fantasy necessarily all right so all three of us as ben said on this conference call all three of us, as Ben said on this conference call, all three of us had Tomlinson, Falk, and Holmes,

one through three in some order. Ben had Falk one. Who did we all have for? Ben had McCaffrey. Dave, who did you have for? I had McCaffrey. I had McCaffrey. Jamie, you had?

Peterson. Peterson, okay. Were you at all like thinking, I can't put Peterson in PPR? Because I think if this were a non-PPR Rushmore, he'd be there. But I don't know about PPR. No, I think Ben said it about Peterson before in regard to he met expectations. So whether he was drafted one and finished seven, it was a good seven. Or drafted one and finished five.

He delivered more times than not based on what the expectations were for him. So I think while he didn't have a dominant season in PPR, he had enough good seasons and put him... He's going to be the one that gets knocked off from McCaffrey if this continues. If McCaffrey continues, I think that's easy to say. But I don't think right now McCaffrey has done enough to say he's on a Mount Rushmore of

running back since era, more so than Adrian Peterson. It's interesting because if you look at just PPR points for a full season, McCaffrey has the second best season since 1997, and he has the 15th best season. 2018 he was 15th. I think Peterson's best season, 1997, and he has the 15th best season. 2018, he was 15th. I think Peterson's best season, he was like 40th in terms of total PPR points.

Yeah, he never had that receiving upside, right? Like when you look at his best season, even when he ran for 2,000 yards, it wasn't an all-time great season, but he was so consistently good. We kept drafting him in the first round every year, and that mattered to me too, like Jamie said. Okay. Uh, any other players you want to mention? Well, Ben and I clearly have the best list because we have the same name on this list. Yeah, we both had Edger and James as our six. I thought he was a really interesting one compared to like Aaron Foster, who was like my honorable mention. Number seven, James peak overlaplapped with falk's peak and i mentioned that falk was 100

points better than the rb3 in two of those seasons james was the only guy in 99 and 2000 that was even comparable to marshall falk so he never i don't think was even the rb1 in a given season but that still says kind of a lot about how good james was because he was really a lot better than everyone not named falk for those couple seasons. Only an idiot would put Foster on the list. Why? I just knew I had him on my all-decade team. No, I'm just kidding because you're the only person that did it.

He's obviously in the conversation. He had some great seasons. He was what, fifth or sixth? He was fifth. Actually, LaShawn McCoy. Was I the only one who had McCoy in the top six? No, Ben Tracker, but that's because he saw him when he was two. Yeah, McCoy kind of the top six? No, Ben Tracker, but that's because he saw him when he was two. Yeah, McCoy kind of the sustained excellent. Yeah, Ed

should probably be on there over McCoy. Wide receiver is really interesting. This is the one that's going to turn over the most. You got two guys locked in, running back. If you got two locked in, and then you just kind of say, okay, McCaffrey can get there. Maybe Kamara can get there. Some of these guys that are...

Zeke. Zeke, Barkley. Zeke, right. If they have sustained success in some big seasons... If McCaffrey does anything close to what he's done in each of the last two years, one of those two seasons, he's already there for where you guys have him, and I think for me, too.

And that's why I put him there. He's kind of like a pick for the future. He's been great so far, and I think for me too. And that's why I put him there. It was kind of like a pick for the future. Yep. Because he's been great so far, and I don't see it slowing down at all. Yeah, like you didn't need to see four years of George Washington's presidency to know that he deserved to be on Mount Rushmore. No, it's because he chopped down the cherry tree. Yeah, he was the only president at that point, so it was an easy call.

They just decided to build a Rushmore because – They built it with just him at first. People don't know that. They kept adding three people. All right. Wide receiver. I think this is very interesting. I think we got it wrong here, personally.

Easily the most interesting position. The wide receivers about Rushmore are, in order, Randy Moss, Antonio Brown, Marvin Harrison, and Calvin Johnson. Randy Moss, Antonio Brown, Marvin Harrison, and Calvin Johnson. And three of us have Antonio Brown number one. So how did Randy Moss end up number one? Because Ben Gretsch plus Ben Schrager, Chris Towers, and Heath Cummings all had Moss number one. Only one of us had Randy Moss number one. But Brown versus...

Only one of us had Randy Moss number three. Yeah, that was me. And actually, as I was doing my... A little bit more research today before the show, I realized I actually screwed up. I should have had Marvin Harrison number one. Because... I'll give you the numbers.

Marvin Harrison had four straight number one finishes and five total. That cannot be beat. Four straight number one finishes, five total in PPR. That's why he should be number one. I actually put Brown one instead of Harrison, but that was foolish of me. All right, so Ben, you put Randy Moss one. Why over Brown and Harrison? It wasn't.

It was close. And this is kind of like what Dave said where he didn't really think a lot about how he ranked the top couple. At wide receiver, I was just trying to figure out how to cut down my list because at first I had like 13 names. And I was considering a lot of guys. But I landed on Moss. And I'll go back to something that Jamie said with Peyton Manning and how he was productive on two different teams. I just kind of focused on how good he was with the Patriots in 2007. You already talked about that on the best seasons draft.

You really wanted him in the first round. But then you also think back to how good he was in 98 and 99 and 2000 and 2001. You talked about how Dante Culpepper was a QB. The overall QB won three straight years. That was because of Randy Moss. So he was just really sustained good or great with the Vikings and then also had the best season ever on an entirely different team. Yes, there's that lull with the Raiders,

which maybe is the reason why you would say he can't be number one over some of these more consistent guys like you just noted, Harrison. But I think the fact that he was that good and that dominant on multiple rosters and in a decade apart, I don't know, man, he was, he was pretty,

he was some special for sure. Yeah. Just, he didn't have as many number one finishes as Brown or Harrison. I don't know. I really don't know what the case is. I think you guys really screwed up. I think you should apologize.

No. The thing I think is, you know, these guys that are touchdown dependent, it hurts them a little bit. Like who? Like Randy Moss? Moss, Calvin Johnson. You know, that was... We had this conversation today. Michael Thomas

and Calvin Johnson were, you know, like 30 points apart in their best seasons. And Thomas, nine touchdowns, but 149 catches. And Calvin Johnson's best season, he had 96 catches. Yeah, that's a great point. Best fantasy season. He may have had over 100 catches, I don't remember.

But 96 catches and 16 touchdowns that season. So, you know, like I asked Dave in just the conversation about having to pick a receiver. Like if you knew this guy was getting 120 catches but eight or nine touchdowns versus this guy you know was getting 15 plus touchdowns but you're getting under 100 catches like what would you what would you take and i and dave you know said what i think is the right answer that you lean toward the catches because at least you know that's sustainable um i think that that hurts you know these guys that don't consistently get 100 plus catches that's how i play when i look

forward i i lean towards the catches in the yards always but when i was looking back and i did this with our draft as well like i know that this guy scored 16 or in moss's case 23 touchdowns and i was leaning way more i thought that was interesting actually when i did the draft i was leaning way more towards these huge touchdown seasons that i never thought were sustainable but i also marvel that yeah and you know it's such a shame for calvin johnson because his best season you have to say not in terms of fantasy points but 2012 he had 122 catches 1964 yards and somehow five touchdowns yeah that was't that the year he fell down at the one like a hundred times yeah yeah i mean if that's a 10 touchdown season then he's never probably all time receiving yardage record but he still didn't even have his best fantasy season because he scored so

few touchdowns that's crazy all right so dave what did you think of of this mount rushmore it was randy moss what did i say antonio brown two and marvin harrison calvin four yeah calvin johnson Mount Rushmore, it was Randy Moss, Antonio Brown, too, and Marvin Harrison. Calvin Johnson. That was my top four. Exactly in that order? No, I had Brown ahead of Moss. I don't know if I'd stick with that, though, because Moss did have that amazing year with all those touchdowns,

and he was great for most of his time in the NFL. A.B. was, too. And the one thing that I remember about Antonio Brown was how consistent he was. I think somewhere in the neighborhood of like 70% or 80% of the time he played, he gave you 10 points in non, 15 in PPR. Like he was outstanding once he finally broke out in Pittsburgh. He had five straight top three finishes, six straight top five finishes, three straight top one or number one finishes.

Marvin Harrison with four straight number one finishes, as I mentioned. So it seems like in some order of Brown, Harris, and Moss, that's kind of like Tomlinson, Holmes, and Falk. So who was everybody's number four? It was Calvin Johnson on the consensus Mount Rushmore. Jamie, who was your number four? All of us as Calvin's number four it was calvin johnson on the consensus mount rushmore jamie who's your number four oh all of us is calvin johnson number four oh about that i had a hard time with calvin johnson and owens and and this is where i went to that tiebreaker of adp where i i remember you know just kind of thinking back to the era as calvin johnson was every year the number

one receiver we took right like and there's a reason for that he was that good uh toronto owens maybe never really was that he played in the moss and holt and harrison eras where all those guys were the top names right and owens maybe was the number one receiver a couple of times but typically was more like the number two or number three receiver we had drafted he was never number one i don't think i don't think he ever finished yeah he maybe never was but two I don't think he ever finished number one. Yeah, he maybe never was. Two and three, five times.

He's another guy who was so good across so many different teams. He was good at the Eagles. He was good late in his career with the Bills and the Bengals. Did he play with the Bengals? Am I making that up? Yeah, he did. He played with everyone. The Niners and the Cowboys earlier, obviously.

I mean, he was a truly dominant receiver obviously but uh i had a hard time with that and i know heath and chris towers both put him in their top four and it was close for that fourth and final spot and i think it should have been now ben traggers uh said that he took calvin johnson because he thought it was uh megatron from the transformers because he played them as good so He was looking for Optimus Prime, but he couldn't find him. Yeah, and a guy who didn't get the touchdowns, but I looked at all the...

I took what I considered the prime years of all these great wide receivers, and in terms of yards, Julio Jones beat them all, but he just never scored touchdowns. That was a deciding factor for me. He didn't score enough touchdowns. If we're looking back to say he was that scored touchdowns. That was a deciding factor for me. He didn't score enough touchdowns. If we're looking back to say he was that good at fantasy.

Going into 2018, I think he had a record for the most games averaging 100 yards receiving. If 2014 to 2019 is Jones' prime, he averaged 1,633 yards per season. Randy Moss, in what I considered his prime, he kind of had two. But his first one, he averaged just under 1,633 yards per season. Randy Moss in what I considered his prime, he kind of had two, but his first one he averaged just under 1,400 yards. Almost 240 yards fewer per season than Julio Jones.

Julio Jones is amazing, but he averaged six touchdowns in those years. What do you think Antonio Brown would have done last year a full year with Brady or a full year with Carr? It would have been better with Brady than with Carr. I was bullish on him. Would he have had 1,300 yards, 1,400 yards? Yeah, I think he could have gotten pretty close.

Ben Touchdown? He could have gotten pretty close, yeah. Yep. It's really hard to say. The one game I saw him with that dolphins game he looked great like he looked fast he looked great but it's you know it was the dolphins i don't know what do you think i think he would have been close to you know the numbers that we're just talking about you know it's hard to say because you know he was so dominant in pittsburgh but you know he could

have had the randy moss of going to a different team, great quarterback, and he still might. He's young enough where he can still latch on with the team potentially and have another great season. I'd bet against it, but it could happen. Here's a pretty fascinating bit of trivia about our ranks here. And I struggle with this guy, but none of us, all seven of us, ranked the player who scored

the most fantasy points, the wide receiver who scored the most fantasy points in this era. Really? Yeah. None of us even put him in our top six. Do you guys know who it is? Demarius top seven? Yeah, most cumulative. Demarius?

Oh, Fitzgerald. That's a much better guess. Most cumulative fantasy points? Yeah, most cumulative. Demarius? Or Fitzgerald. Yeah. Oh, Fitzgerald. That's a much better guess. It was Fitz, and none of us even got him into the top six. I mean, he was on the cusp for me. I went with Holt.

He wasn't even drafted in the ultimate fantasy draft. Yeah. His peak season is just more of a longevity, guys. Peak seasons weren't necessarily that amazing. Wow. And, well, we said this on the monday episode but beckham was not drafted but i was not on the mount rushmore or anything but i thought it was amazing that he had the most fantasy points per game in his rookie season of any wide receiver in this era he only played 12 games but most per game that's pretty impressive

then we bought him we bought you his jersey and and he's been downhill already. That was it. All right, tight end. Here we go. What's the Mount Rushmore looking like at tight end? I have so many notes here. You know who's first. It is Rob Gronkowski. For everybody except for two. Rob Gronkowski, one.

Tony Gonzalez, two. Jimmy Graham, three. Antonio Gates, four. Also receiving votes, Kelsey Witten and George Kittle. So, Gronk, Gonzalez, Graham, and Gates, you have to have a G at the beginning of your last name to be on Mount Rushmore. Okay, take it away, guys.

What do you want to talk about with tight end? That's good news for Noah Gant and TJ Gockinson. Look, I think it's obvious with Gronk being on there because he just completely changed the position. But before he could change the position, Tony Gonzalez changed the position. And not to slight Antonio Gates because he was pretty damn amazing himself,

but those two for sure. It's almost funny because you've got Gronk and Graham. You can call them one and one a when they were both running hot. They were just unstoppable in fantasy. Gronk just a little bit more than Graham. And then Gonzalez and Gates, when they were playing at the same time, it was close for a while.

I think maybe Gates may have pulled away, but they both seem to be, you know, at the top of the top for tight ends when they were both playing. I think you guys are wrong about Gronkowski. You ranked him third.

Explain yourself. I ranked him third. Okay, so Tony Gonzalez was the number one tight end in fantasy five times out of six seasons. And five times overall. He was lower than the other ADP. the other adp no no this has nothing to do with adp from 1999 through 2004 or 5 he was number one number one number one number two number one and number one and unbelievable terrible okay he didn't score as many points as gronk and Graham, but he dominated the position for six straight seasons

and really for like nine straight seasons. So Gonzalez was an easy one for me, and I don't think I'm going to get too much pushback on that, even though Chris Towers and I were the only ones who had Gonzalez one. I understand why I had Gronk three and Graham two, why you'd push back on that, but I just felt like I had to be consistent because I had Graham as my all-decade team tight end

over Gronk. Because Gronk had some more bad seasons because of the injuries. And it was just like, it was so close. Did you ever at any time draft Graham over Gronk? I doubt it. But that was the thing. Like, Gronk would let you down

because he would get hurt too much. So I had Graham over Gronk. Gronk has the best season ever. Just admit you're wrong and you feel sorry. No. I admit I was wrong about Harrison over Brown. Admit it or this conference calls over. Like Gronk has the best season ever.

Graham has the second best season ever. But Gronk has the best season ever by Graham is the second best season ever. But Gronk has the best season ever by a lot. It's true. But a lot. If you care about this, his best season was only 35 fantasy points better than tight end to that year. Graham's best season. He was 88 points better than tight end to.

What do you think about that sucker? Yeah, he was dominant that one year i had him that year and graham was like the cheat code that year and and he was good for the whole he had four years five years of the saints four years of it he had top 30 seasons for a tight end in this span and his 2011 and 2013 are second and fourth in this span at the position so he he had four really great seasons but the argument for for Graham is peak because after that stretch, after he left the Saints, he has never really been that much of a difference maker.

And the argument for Gronk is also peak. And Gronk's peak, I think, was higher. Even though he was hurt, every time he was on the field, he was good. See, Graham wasn't good when he went to other teams. He's been all right. Graham had four straight years as a top two tight end. Yeah, he'll be drafting first this year,

Gronk or Graham. Gronk, I'll take Tony Gonzalez. Gonzalez's longevity is crazy. You have no justification for having Gronk over Gonzalez. I think you were just like, oh, Gronk's the best tight end ever. I'm going to put him up there. But in terms of fantasy,

you know I'm right about this. Gonzalez should be one. No. No. No. Bronco has two of the all-time top 10 seasons at tight end, including number one. Three top 10 based on fantasy points per game, including number one.

He's done it. He's proven to be literally the best according to multiple definitions. Yeah. I mean, the Gonzalez case is that he was playing at a time when tight end scoring wasn't as good, right? But I also think it's fascinating that across 17 seasons, he missed two games. He played 16 game seasons 15 times, and he played 15 game seasons twice. He never played fewer than 15 games. He caught 70 balls 14 times. He went over 800 yards

13 times. He scored at least five touchdowns 14 times and he also you know went over 90 catches five times and went over a thousand yards four times and went into double digit scores three times but that that's part of it is like okay yeah it's it's 17 years and he was really really consistent but he only went over a thousand yards four times he only went over double digit scores three times i'm pretty sure gronk went over double double digit scores more than that, even though he was never healthy. He's not even the best Chiefs tight end. I mean, I just, again, number one, number one, number one, number two, number one, number one. Six years.

Five times number one. He played... They score more points now than they did back then. And they score more points in the early 2010 decade than they did in Wyon gonzalez's time i think so gronk gronk matched his 4 000 yard seasons even though he only played 15 games four times and he had five double digit touchdown seasons uh gonzalez and all that longevity

only did it three times you know what i what? No one is agreeing with you, Adam. I know. I feel bad for you guys. I'm trying to help here. Do you ever hear everybody say, I want to see the Gonzalez spike? No, you want to see the Gronk spike. What's wrong with you? Well, I will definitely say Gonzalez, a better analyst.

No pushback there. Let me ask you this. He's no wit. You can spend an hour listening to one of them talk. Who would you rather listen to talk? Tony Gonzalez. What? That's not even close.

Get out of here. All right, so who's number four for you guys? If Gonzalez was still at CBS, I would have voted for him first. Who's number four for you guys? Gates. Kelsey. Yeah, this is a good discussion.

How do you not have Gates on the list? I had Kelsey too. Gates is a good five. That's what I had too. This was decided by just two points. It was very close in the votes. I had Gates as well, but this was really, really close for the final

spot. Wow. Heath had Gates too. Why do you have Kelsey over Gates? I want to hear it, Jamie. It's kind of the McCaffrey argument. I think he's done enough already though to prove that he's had i want to hear why do you why do you have kelsey over gates i want to hear it jamie it's kind of the mcafee argument i think he's done enough already though to to prove that he's uh one of the best of the best top three season overall um in terms of tight ends uh you know graham has a better second season than kelsey's first but those three gronk kelsey and and graham uh only three tight ends in this era to average 18.5 PPR points per game in a season. I just think he's put himself on that plane already. So while Gates has a better longevity, clearly, I think Kelsey's done enough in his time with his, I think, what, three finishes as a number one tight end to put himself there.

So it's close. I certainly can take Gates over Kelsey for the consensus. I see why you guys did it. I believe in PPR he has been the number one tight end four straight seasons. Four straight seasons, okay. In PPR, yeah, there was one year I think where Gronk was better than him in non-PPR, but he was better in full PPR. But Adam, if you're going to give Gonzalez the nod because of the era he played in,

Gates, from 2004 to 2010, he caught at least eight touchdowns every year. Back when it was a touchdown or bust position, for seven straight years he caught at least eight TDs. How many of those years did he have at least 900 yards? Probably a lot. Yeah.

How many times did he have 1,100 did he have 1100 yards or a thousand you know like he's had over a thousand yards twice he's had double digit touchdowns four times kelsey's had four thousand yard seasons they've been consecutive yeah only once has he had 10 double digit touchdowns he had 10 in 2018 well who has scored more points because because he's because kelsey has more number one finishes. Yeah, because Gates is playing the same era as Gonzalez, but he was still the clear number two several times, I think. Do you know who gets credit for Antonio Gates' NFL career?

Phillip Rivers. Pete Prisco. Oh, Prisco gets it? Because he convinced him. This is a story Pete has told many, many times that he so we used to cover. I did this once. Pete did it a billion times. We used to cover the NCAA regional tournaments. The first the first I'm sorry, the NCAA tournament, we would cover the first round. They would send everybody that we had basically to to cover the first round of the NCAA tournament.

So Pete was covering Kent State, and he saw Antonio Gates, and he went over to him after the game and said, you should play tight end. And Gates was like, really? And he said, yeah, you have a body for a tight end. You're not going to make it in the NFL. You're a small power forward. Go play in the NFL.

And so Pete, every time he sees Antonio Gates, he tells him, where's my check? Never works. Kelsey's best season was better than Gates' best season. Kelsey's second best season was slightly better than Gates' second best season, almost the same. Like I said, Kelsey's the best fantasy tight end ever for the Chiefs. This is the Gronk and Gonzalez argument. You're just

making it backwards. You just made the other side of the argument. No, because I also have the number one finishes argument supporting me in both cases basically i'm just destroying your argument well you chose kelsey over gates yeah i have no idea what i'm arguing about right now none i don't know what point I'm trying to make. I don't know anything. Gates was tight end two from 2004. That stretch I talked about. Tight end two, tight end one,

tight end one, tight end three, tight end four, tight end three, and tight end three. He was only tight end one twice but he was top four every season for seven straight years that's pretty great but it's not as good as number one four straight years i think i'd probably go uh gates and non-ppr kelsey and ppr

that's fair that's actually i'll agree with that all right finally and then who was six in the consensus was a whitten yep whitten and then a couple votes for kelsey eric kittle yeah those are bad votes ridiculous votes jamie and dave were the only reason you wrote it for witness because you like him as an analyst you want to pull a rabbit out of your head. Jason Witten was really good. He was really good. Playing football? Yes. I should have clarified.

Alright, those are your Mount Rushmore's, ladies and gentlemen. What do you want to see for Monday Night Football? You got a new crew coming? Oh, it hasn't been determined yet? No. Who do I want to see for Monday Night Football? Gronk.

A little late for that. Chris Collinsworth can do every game as far as I'm concerned. He's the best. Wow. Going outside your own network. Look at you. I think... Hold on. The two leading candidates that I've heard are Lou Riddick.

That's who I was going to say. Oh, he's great. I love him. And Kurt Warner. What else would be a good pick? What about play-by-play? Warner's good. Who do you play-by-play? Steve Levy, I think, is the guy.

Oh, no. Shouldn't be him. It should be Kevin Burkhardt. I liked watching him on XFL. I mean, he's so good. I think it should be Chris Hassel and Brady Quinn. Yeah. Kevin Burkhardt is my underrated announcer.

He is so good. I'd like to see him. We have Charles Davis now, speaking of Kevin Burkhardt. What about Charles Davis? He's a CBS broadcaster now. Excellent. An excellent addition. Great on Madden.

Let's read some Apple podcast questions before we go. We're going to take a quick break here on Fantasy Football today. When we come back, some of your Apple podcast questions, not about Mount Rushmore. Is there an Apple conference call question? Apple conference call right after this. Kick off an exciting football season with BetMGM, an official sportsbook partner of the National Football League. Yard after yard, down after down, the sportsbook born in Vegas

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And on what, Pluto TV? How do we do that now? Yes, Pluto TV. We are there. And I gave the details earlier, Jamie, so thank you for asking me again. Oh, here they are. Pluto TV, Channel 459. The sports section on channel 459.

That's what it was. This is brand new stuff, actually. Adam will be on Tuesday. Well, you would have already seen him Tuesday. Or you'll see him later today, Tuesday, whenever you listen to this show. And Thursday. And Ben will be on Wednesday and Friday,

along with myself, Dave, and Heath on every day. This is from College Math is Hard. I'm a big LSU fan. If I wanted to pick up at least two LSU players, who should they be? Odell Beckham. Not Landry? You can get him at a steal. Clyde Edwards-Hilaire and Odell Beckham. Yeah.

Edwards-Hilaire. Justin Jefferson. I mean, it depends on format and everything else. There's a lot of good LSU players. I was interviewing DJ Chark at the Pro Bowl, and Tredavious White came over and basically shoved DJ Chark out of the way and was like, if you want to win, you take, I forget what number Chark is. 17.

I think it's 17. 17 and 27. Best way to win for Tiger. He was talking about Fournette. Oh. Yeah, Chark is probably my favorite pick for a cost-considered redraft pick from LSU. I like Chark a lot this year well adam's taking

justin jefferson around six so or i'm gonna get ripped for taking him with the last pick of round eight and then everyone's gonna say i'm taking him in round six apparently so that that was that was bad transaction for me hey well you'll love this on the dynasty team we chair uh 14th overall in the rookie draft. Steel. I can't wait to DK Metcalf this one. Like, all the way home. I was the only one who wanted DK Metcalf last year.

Genius. From Colin, somewhere in Michigan, not named eats Lansing or Detroit, Dave. Isn't there like a township or something? Yeah, there's all kinds of townships what was the stupid movie with john cusack where he's a hitman somebody cast john cusack as a gross point blank gross point gross point michigan idp dynasty question okay this is a mouthful. Here we go. I acquire Lamar Jackson, Michael Thomas, a 2021 first-round pick. Good Lord. Matt Judon and Mark Ingram.

A lot of Ravens. I give up Dalvin Cook Alexander Madison Odell Beckham Joe Burrow and Brian Burns I don't know about the IDP side but I think you won the other side yeah yep okay

from Queen Leanna is that a Game of Thrones character no no she was not a queen full PPR Okay, from Queen Leanna. Is that a Game of Thrones character? No, no. She was not a queen. Full PPR. I think that's the old woman, right? I was thinking Leanna Stark.

Oh, yeah. Who's the old woman? Queen of the North? She was a queen, Leanna Stark? You're thinking of the Tyrell, Lady Tyrell. Yeah. That's who Eisenberg's thinking of. Yeah, she's one of the best characters in the whole show. Yeah, she's true.

I have Zach Ertz, and I want to make an offer for Kittle. Is Ertz and 1.11 giving too much for Kittle, or is that fair? Should I go for his 3.10 too? I mean, if you can get 3.10, yes, but I think that's fair. Agreed. Ertz could be done after this year. Yeah. I'm fine with that.

In terms of being a top tier tight end. Yeah. Kittles is a tight end one, in my opinion, in Dynasty. Yeah. And Earths is trending down. So, yeah, you're giving up the 111. That's not great, but the gap between those two in Dynasty is a lot larger than it sounds. So, put it in terms of players

because now we know where players are going. You're talking about Ertz and any of Rager, Jefferson. Probably not even Rager, but maybe Jefferson. What about Ruggs? Yeah. Ruggs, Vaughn. Keyshawn Vaughn. Yeah.

That's what you're trading. It's 1,000% worth it. If you can get the third round pick in return, that's great you're trading. It's a thousand percent worth it. And if you can get the third round pick in return, that's great. So what did we learn today, everybody? Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski are overrated. I made you laugh. You laughed on that one. I didn't hear you. What did you say?

You're dumb. He learned that you're dumb. That's all he learned. You're just learning this. We've been working together for a decade. But I love you. I would never call you dumb. Until now all he learned. You're just learning this. We've been working together for a decade. But I love you. I would never call you dumb until now. Just let your two-year-old do it. Well, thank you for listening.

Are we on the Mount Rushmore podcast after this? I think we're done. I almost said thank you for paying attention. What kind of a thing is that to say? That's all right. Did you catch my math error on Monday's FFT? No, I didn't. What kind of a thing is that to say? That's right. Did you catch my math error on Monday's FFT? No, I didn't. What'd you do?

Dave, did you catch it? No. Maybe I did, and I just forgot what it was. I subtracted 2018 and 1998 and said 30 years. I did hear that. I thought you were kidding. I was like, what was that? No, and then I was like, yeah, I was so thrown off. It happens, man. I want to thank Dave, I was so thrown off. It happens, man.

I want to thank Dave, JB, Heath, Shraggy B, and Simon Eisenberg for coming on the show today. Thank you all for listening. Heath. Heath is not here. I can call up Heath right now. You named JB's kid before me. Na, na, na, na, na, na, na.