Fantasy Football Today - FFT Dynasty - 2024 NFL Draft TE Prospects with Andrew Cooper! (04/19 Fantasy Football Dynasty Podcast)

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

Special guest Andrew Cooper from Fantasy Alarm teams up with Heath Cummings for a preview into the 2024 NFL Draft tight end prospects. From generational talents like Brock Bowers (11:05) to potential future starters like Theo Johnson (18:20), Ben Sinnot (25:55) and others! We dissect each player's fantasy impact and share strategic advice for dynasty league domination. But that's not all! Andrew dives deep to give us hidden gems (41:29) he's excited for! Don't miss this comprehensive review! Follow our FFT team on Twitter: @FFToday, @AdamAizer, @JameyEisenberg, @daverichard, @heathcummingssr, @ctowerscbs Follow the brand new FFT TikTok account: https://www.tiktok.com/@fftoday Watch FFT on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/fantasyfootballtoday Get 20% off Fantasy Football Today merch: https://store.cbssports.com/collections/fantasy-football-today%20?utm_source=podcast-apple-com&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=buy-our-merch&utm_content=fantasy-football-collection Join our Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/FantasyFootballToday/ Sign up for the FFT newsletter https://www.cbssports.com/newsletter You can listen to Fantasy Football Today on your smart speakers! Simply say "Alexa, play the latest episode of the Fantasy Football Today podcast" or "Hey Google, play the latest episode of the Fantasy Football Today podcast." To hear more from the CBS Sports Podcast Network, visit https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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19 plus. Ontario only. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you, please go to connexontario.ca. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those.

Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries ice yes we deliver those goaltenders no but chicken tenders yes because those are groceries and we deliver those too along with your favorite restaurant food alcohol and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details welcome to fantasy football today dynasty i am your host heath cummings here with andrew cooper and we are here for what you've all been waiting for the rookie tight end preview it's the most important position well you know it might be andrew welcome just i like to start by letting everybody like just tell us what you've been working on and where people can find your work yeah absolutely i'm over at uh fantasyalarm.com i tweet everything out so at

coupe fiasco on twitter and recently you know i'm digging into the rookies i also came out with a best ball guide that we're going to update after the draft that's dropping this week. And honestly, above all that right now, the most important thing for people to get involved with, and you and I talked about this briefly is the Scott Fishbowl contest we have going on over at Reddit. It's a big community over there. I've got my start just, you know, typing in the comments and then making posts. And then eventually those posts became articles. So I wanted to give back to that community. What we're doing is we teamed up with the lovely Scott Fish and Fantasy Cares to do a draft prop contest.

So if you check my pinned tweet on Twitter, at Koopa Fiasco, you get in, make a little donation, pick some props, like how many quarterbacks go in the first round, et cetera, and you can win prizes and you can get into the Scottfish Bowl. So that's the big thing I got going on right now. If you, if I want to focus my energy on anything, it's that. That's fantastic. As a board member at Fantasy Cares, I thank you for doing that good work.

Again, it was at Coop, a fiasco. Go check that out. The Reddit contest. This is probably a good time since you brought up Scott Fishbowl to also say, we've got a live draft down here in Fort Lauderdale for Scott Fishbowl 14 on June 29th. I will be there. We have a live draft in Kansas City on July 7th. I will also be there.

So come hang out with me and do one of the Scott Fishbowl live drafts. Are you going to try to get to a live draft this year? Oh, 100%. I Fishbowl live drafts. Are you going to try to get to a live draft this year? Oh, 100%. I live for the live draft. Up in Boston, we have Mike Fiella and Bob Gilchrist. It's a bunch of guys giving each other a hard time, but it's all love. I was talking to Bob yesterday. I know when the Boston live draft is, but that has not been announced,

and so we are not going to be announcing that on the show. We'll leave that one for Scott, but let me tell you that one, that one's got some fireworks, I think. Absolutely. So get in, go get involved with fantasy, fantasy cares, go get involved with the Scott fishbowl, go to coop a fiasco on Twitter and check out that contest. Now I wanted to tell you that like the, the way that you became a part of this tight end preview and i love like i

love the fantasy community i was doing i think it was part one of the wide receiver preview and i was kind of outlining the guests that i had lined up coming up for future previews and i said you know i don't have anybody yet for the tight end preview and within like 30 minutes i think i get a dm on twitter and it's just i believe it was coupe a fiasco is crushing everything tight ends you've got to have him on for the tight end preview you have any guess who was that would have sent that message to me i mean i don't know i don't know who it was was Mike at Daddy's Home. Oh, Mike Faiello. I just mentioned a moment ago.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. He recommended you. And I didn't need a recommendation of you. We've talked plenty of times on podcasts before, but he said, this is the guy you need to talk to about tight ends. We are going to do just that on the tight end preview. We will have profiles on Brock Bowers, Theo Johnson, Jatavian Sanders, Cade Stover, and several other tight ends. We will kind of talk through Andrew's tight end process here in just a minute.

And then we might do a little tight end draft, a tight end mock. What could be more fun than that? We always start with three questions for our guest. And I'll just ask, like's start right there. Can you tell everybody what your process is for evaluating tight ends coming into the NFL? Yeah, man, it's tough. It's an incredibly tough position, especially when you look around at where these guys come from, because it's not like quarterback where the number one overall pick produces most of them. We've had guys like Mark Andrews, who wasn't even the top tight end drafted on his own team. We had George Kittle, who came in the fifth round and was

honestly drafted because he was roommates with CJ Beathard, who was drafted in the third round. We've had Logan Thomas as a quarterback. Darren Waller was my receiver. Juwan John, they come from everywhere. So for me, my process, and again, I'm a big statistical guy, people that know my work, but you have to watch these guys. You have to watch and see what types of player they are. So the first thing I do is kind of group them into what types of player they are. Is this guy going to be a blocker? Is this guy going to be a two-way tight end like a George Kittle or TJ Hawkinson? Is this guy going to be a primary slot guy like Mark Andrews, Evan Ingram?

I group them into those type of players. And from there we can figure out, okay, does the way they win translate to the NFL? And once we get that all together and have the profiles on these guys, of course, looking at metrics, like, you know, how, how often they line up at wide receiver, how often they're pass blocking yards for round run, all that. Once we have the profiles, then we sit back, wait for the draft and we look and see where the teams are taking them and what they have in

store for these guys what the plan is if the plan is obvious it's like okay they're taking this guy they have a spot a slot it's going to be great then we're in you know if if a team goes and takes a guy uh like darnell washington for instance and he ends up behind pat fryer muth and the the coach calls him a sixth offensive lineman, well, we've got to move him down, right? So that's the way we do it. And what we'll do on this show is we'll take them and we'll carbembalize who they are and we'll tell you,

if this happens with the draft, we're in. If this happens, we might be out. So that's kind of how I go about it. It's worked pretty well for us. Absolutely love it. So question two, and this can be a loaded question. You can answer it however you like, but is there an attribute that you think stands out above the others? What is the most important attribute for a tight end? So this might be shocking to some people because we've kind of battled against it with wide receiver and running back, which is 40 times

and long speed, right? And people will say, well, long speed is not as important. 40 times is not as important. Well, at the tight end position, it actually happens to be one of the most predictive metrics. And, you know, it's kind of the opposite of what they say, where people say, oh, it doesn't really matter the long speed and the breakout stuff. At tight end, it does because of how limited the targets can be for some of these guys in that that and to use the term uh that you guys like using over at cbs in the glob of tight ends that are kind of in the middle there right in the glob of tight ends that are in the middle the guys that can do more with less are the ones that rise above and at least

have some spike weeks i'm talking about like george kittle who runs four or five 240 has more 40 plus yard plays more he's the only tight end that has multiple 70 plus yard plays basically over the last decade because he has that speed right the the difference between kyle pitts as a rookie on 68 targets having a thousand yards versus some of the a guy like jake ferguson getting 70 something targets and having 700 yards. So long speed historically, and you know, there's a number of studies that are, that have been done. I, you know, a guy at Harvard did a study that I, that I kind of understood, but you know what I mean? I combed through it, but, but he did point out that it's like, you know, draft capital

and, and long speed and, uh, and in college production are typically the big ones. So I wouldn't ignore 40 times. So it seems like we just had this conversation like four years ago with Kyle Pitts, but we will ask the question again, because I am hearing it. Is Brock Bowers the best tight end prospect ever? So I would say there's an argument to be made

that he is the best fantasy tight end prospect ever. So for me, since I've been doing this, the best fantasy tight end prospect ever okay up there with so for me since i've been doing this the best fantasy tight end prospects have been bowers now kyle pitts and evan ingram you know the guy runs a 442 right and he's he's i was my best comparable player for evan ingram is like when you go through it's like andre johnson there's like no tight ends that are 630 230 you know what You know what I mean? But probably the best overall tight end prospect since I've been involved with this game has got to be

Vernon Davis. His combine was incredible and incredibly well-rounded. It didn't turn out to be the best tight end ever, but in terms of going to the combine and obliterating the combine and having everything you look for, I think Vernon Davis is still the gold standard.

I think that's absolutely true, and people cringe a little bit when they hear that because, well, he didn't turn out to, but that has been the case with a lot of the tight ends drafted in the first round of both the NFL draft and rookie draft. So I've kind of shied away from taking that approach. Now there's no question. If you want Brock Bowers, you're going to have to take him in a one quarterback league, maybe with the fourth overall pick in a super flex league, definitely with a top seven or eight pick, depending on where JJ McCarthy goes in your draft. So you're going to have to make that decision with Bowers. I'm going to add a bonus question here that I didn't put on the rundown. I think you've done enough tight end research. It shouldn't

be that difficult, but there's no doubt from anybody that Brock Bowers is tight in one in this class. Do you have a clear next four or five? So I have, personally, I have two guys in the second tier. And then my third tier is about like five guys. And the reality is, and I did a write up on this on Fantasy Alarm. The reality is that the entirety of tier two and three depending on the narrative of the draft not just draft capital but who goes where who what order they go in who trades up whatever any one of those guys could be the tight end too now the tier two are the guys that i personally am saying okay well these guys have have what i they have the profile

that i like and if you max you match that profile with the draft capital and the landing spot in the scheme, then I'll be over the moon. But I won't ignore it if one of the other guys goes in the second round and everybody else goes in the fourth. Who are those two guys in your tier two? Those two guys are Jatavian Sanders and Jaheim Bell, who I know you had mentioned. I was going to mention it to you

when you mentioned some names earlier, but then you were like, who are some other guys you want to talk about? He's kind of my other guy there. But those are the two guys in tier two for me. Okay, great. Let's take a short break and we will jump into those tight end profiles

and we will definitely talk about Bell a little bit later in the show. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. And we will definitely talk about Bell a little bit later in the show. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region.

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Let's start with what he actually showed on the field. How would you break down Bowers in terms of just like an overall profile of his game? I mean, this guy is... So for me, you look at what he if i would just give the short and sweet on it he's basically a wide receiver that plays wide receiver that blocks better than every wide receiver in the league that you can start a tight end in fantasy football that's that sounds like somebody i would like to draft it's basically if you could start like

jordy nelson that tight end in fantasy football football, that's honestly what we're looking at here. That's just the short speech, some speech on it, and then the stats and the film back it all up. Now, we've seen, I think, two different archetypes you can talk about. We've seen Kyle Pitts be used almost exclusively down the field. We saw Sam Laporta last year with a pretty low ADOT that did a little bit after the catch. Do you think that Bowers finds himself in a higher or lower ADOT role? And do you think maybe he can be better after the catch than Laporta has been? Yeah. So what's interesting about Laporta is that he was the tackle breaking monster in college and I think that's the crazy upside for him is that I don't think we've seen we've seen the upside of him yet as he develops as a player like I think he's going to incorporate more of that into his game it's

like Rashi Rice I look at him and the thing he did best in college was contested catches and he had none of them last year right I'm like we might see another level of these guys you know and that's how it kind of works in the NFL but I think about what bowers ideally can can be is if you go out and use him if a team the right team takes him and uses him like mark andrews or evan ingram where he's actually playing like 85 of his snaps at wide receiver and just as a crusher blocking from the slot then then there's no there's no ceiling to what he could be and i I'll even give you this, Heath. I'm a very conservative guy when it comes to rookies. Some say even a rookie hater at times.

And I do cape up for the older players in the NFL too. I'm kind of a Lorax for older players. I get in trouble with that as well, but I will say this for him. If he were to go, either at five or if they trade back if he were to go to the chargers where they just lost their top four pass catchers uh they have greg roman who orchestrated a top five all-time season for mark andrews at tight end if he were to go to that team i i would have i might rank him at the as the number one dynasty tight end before he plays a snap.

That's the kind of player we're talking about. And this is why he's a pro, because that was going to be one of my next questions, is where is he going to rank a tight end? Let's just say he gets an average. Another place I've seen him mocked to a lot is the Indianapolis Colts. And that seems like a decent landing spot, but not quite as awesome as the one you just described. So let's say he gets a slightly above average landing spot, but not quite as awesome as the one you just described. So let's say he gets a slightly above average landing spot, maybe drafted somewhere between pick 10 and pick 15. Where does he slot in to your rookie draft rankings and where does he slot in to your tight end rankings?

Yeah, so honestly, for both, I'm going to take any tight end that is established and a top two target on the team and put him, put him ahead of Bowers just because Bowers, you know, say he does go to the Colts or the Jets popular landing spots, right? We're not going to, no one's going to project him to have more targets than Michael Pittman or Garrett Wilson, right?

Right. And there is competition there with Josh Downs and, and Mike Williams and those guys where he could do it, but he's not going to be guaranteed to do it. So I couldn't yet rank him ahead of Andrews or Laporta or McBride or possibly even Kincaid. I think that's where he'd be in that tier with Kincaid and Pitts, and it would be him in that group. And I might put him ahead, but it's kind of hard to put him ahead of Kyle Pitts

with Kirk Cousins, and he's already had a 1,000-yard season. So he ends up in that tier, which is obviously incredibly high for a rookie tight end. But without him having a guaranteed top-two target role in the team, it's hard to say, hey, you know what? This guy's the second tight end in Dynasty for me right now. Are you comfortable saying that his upside is the best tight end in football for five years absolutely absolutely i mean again the best tight end in

fantasy the best thing again because we have to make that distinction you hear you hear chavis kelsey he says you know all the time he goes george kittles he says it kind of like flippantly he'll be like george kittle the best tight end in football that's he says it all the time which there's arguments to be made right because he's such a good blocker he does everything but in fantasy i don't care if how they block not one bit really uh as long as they're not coming off the field like if he he can be the best slot wide receiver on his team that's also a better blocker than every slot wide receiver in the league and that's what's so great for fans is there any risk or downside you see with Bowers?

So with any guy his size, right, which is, you know, of course, we say 6'3", you know, 243. And the normal people are like, that's not small. That guy's right. You know, it's funny to say it like that. But the most the prototypical tight end is 6'5", 260, like Gronk, guys. The concern with guys of that size, and again, it's less of a concern with this type player, is that they end up being part-time players. And we've seen it time and time again with guys in that size profile where you have two tight ends. You have the big guy that plays in line like a Nick Boyle or something like that. And then you have the other tight end that comes in.

And Mark Andrews, for instance, early in his career was only playing 40% of the snaps. That's how you end up with this whole group of no man's land tight ends. Cameron Bray, Anthony Ferkser, Kylan Granson. I mean, and you hear those, Mike Gusecki now. You hear those names and it's like they just kind of creep in and they get enough targets that no tight end of the team is relevant. And that is the scary side. That is the only downside for a guy like him is his size. But I think he transcends that.

I think he's just, you're going to find a way to get him on the field to an extent. But that would be the concern. You mentioned Gusecki and he is the obvious ultimate man. If they just play him all the time and throw it to him more we think he'd be so good just to clarify though like bowers is already a better blocker than gasecki right absolutely absolutely absolutely 100 and the thing with guys like gasecki is the league now is kind of shifting towards that right um chan gailey was the first one to really do it permanently. Like the 2008 Chiefs, he was the OC and Tony Gonzalez ran the second most slot routes in the league, not among tight ends of anyone. The only person that ran more routes was Heinz Ward out of the slot. And then he went to the Jets and they didn't have that kind of tight end, so he used Eric Decker there. And Eric Decker

had a thousand yards, David Nelson. And then Mike Gusecki didn't have that kind of tight end, so he used Eric Decker there. And Eric Decker had 1,000 yards at that time. You know, David Nelson. And then Mike Gusecki with his top six season at tight end was with Shane Gailey. Well, now teams around the league are looking at that, and they understand what he was going for. They look at Travis Kelsey and Mark Andrews and Evan Engerman and say, these guys can catch just as good and block better. So that's what we want.

So that's the thing with Bowers is that, you know, you with Bowers is that you have to come up with some kind of concern, and that's what it would be. That is Brock Bowers, the clear and obvious tight end one in the 2024 class. Now let's talk about the other guys. I want to start with Theo Johnson for the reason that Dan Schneier, before the combine, had Theo Johnson as his second tight end. Just absolutely loved the guy. And there are a lot of people who will tell you the most important thing about tight end. You said it's that long speed, the 40-yard dash. Some people will take it a

little bit further and say it's elite athleticism. You've got to be like, give me the vertical. Give me the guy that just isn't. It's an elite athlete. And Theo Johnson is the prototypical size of a tight end, if not just a little bit bigger. And I believe had a 9.9 RAS relative athletic score, the second highest RAS for a tight end out of the past 1,100 that have been measured. He may just be the greatest tight end ever to test at the combine. And he's also enormous, but there's not very much in terms of film or production to get excited about, right? Well, that's the thing. So a guy like him, and again, with the long speed, the way I categorize it, and this is just the pure long speed is anything four, five, really four, five, five or below is differencemaking speed. At that speed, you can just beat the linebackers and the safeties, and you're gone.

Anything 4.55 to 4.65 or so is where, like, Travis Kelsey and everybody live, and that's absolutely fine, but you're not going to break off like a 70-yard touchdown. And anything above 4.7, you're in trouble. This guy, and then once you get out of the actual cure speed we have what you're talking about here which is size adjusted speed right size adjusted speed that's where we get what i call the fist fight right the uh the top fist fighter all time probably rob gronkowski where he never really got away but he was just punching you know he was

beating guys up and you know all the way up and down the field, throwing guys on the ground. It was awesome to watch, right? But some of the guys in that range, they have to have that to them. And that kind of is my one concern with Theo Johnson is that he never showed that in college. You go and watch the highlights. And he was getting what was blocked for him. He only broke two tackles. And this guy, with his speed and with the setup,

actually had a 10-yard ADOT, one of the highest ADOTs of any player, of any tight end that we looked at. But he didn't exceed 34 yards on any play. Even with the 10-yard ADOT, he wasn't really breaking that off. So you look at the profile, and it's there. You know that it's possible with the right scheme and the right coaching that that that he could develop into that type of player but my concern is that we since we haven't seen it the floor obviously is that he's just another one of these guys that we look at it and say oh he could he could probably do this the next level that never really

does which noah fan eric ebron those type guys on paper. Athleticism was crazy. And even, you know, we've seen flashes of it, but they never really had that special something, you know? I think Matt Waldman talks about that with like the athletes who haven't figured out how to play football yet. And that is definitely the no, like I fell hard for Noah Fant. We had this kid in, and I, you know, I won't name great guy in my high school, right? And we had this kid in and i you know i won't name great guy in my high school right and we had a couple kids go to the nfl and i played football with anthony sherman who ended up right playing for the shermanator the shermanator man yeah he was incredible in high school i got stories on that guy came out and pitched left-handed and right-handed in our alumni baseball game but

we had we had another kid that is the exact guy we're talking about. This guy in high school was benching two plates, star on the track team, and just like long jump, high jump, hurdles, everything. His father was an NFL coach, but he just didn't have that dexterity and knack. He just didn't have that. He would just get beaten by other kids and jump balls and knack you know he just didn't have that and we were it would just get beaten by other kids and jump balls and things like that it's just there's there and what's making our job so hard is that how do you watch it and say this guy has that special something he's got that it and this guy does you know what i mean it's crazy that way oh right and that's why i think like

you're probably looking at round three of a rookie draft for theo johnson assuming that he's probably going to be an early day three pick, if I was guessing. If he sneaks into day two, then he probably sneaks in. And that's probably the case with all these guys. If they sneak into day two, they sneak into round two of the rookie draft. I think it's kind of a complicated thing to look at whether Penn State was a good thing for Theo Johnson or not,

because the offensive environment wasn't very good. But that is a place that seems to know how to coach their tight ends up right and then you have to look at that absolutely I mean that's the crazy thing because you have like Iowa the tight end factory and Notre Dame and these schools and then on the flip side you've got some schools we'll talk about some of those players here where if I'm a tight end you know it in your mind you're like oh football Alabama of course some of those players here where if I'm a tight end, you know, it, you, in your mind, you're like, Oh, football, Alabama. Of course I want to go there. But if I'm a tight end, man, like that's a wide receiver factory and your production is going to be not great. Same with like Ohio state and LSU and Clemson. It's like, I don't know the tight end. If I'm a tight end, I maybe want to go somewhere where I can be the focal point. And you see a lot

of these guys transfer. As we go through some of these prospects you see them transferring around to to get looks in the later years if they don't get them early on like jelani woods going to virginia right just you know to get themselves drafted so it is very difficult man i mean we won't we won't spend too much more time on johnson but we did kind of talk about like what's the downside those super athletic guys that didn't really turn into fantasy producers, those guys that didn't haven't really produced a whole lot in the NFL. What type of upside do you see for Johnson? If things do go well, if it clicks, if he gets into the right situation, is he the type of athlete that could be, you know, the rare top, top 12 tight end, top eight tight end that doesn't finish top two on his team

and targets yeah so when we talk about what people in case people haven't seen his profile this guy at i mean four five seven at his size and i believe he's six six 250 i mean that's insane and right uh you know again when you look at george kittle he's not always the top two target on the team but the scheme because they use a a fullback, means there's two wide receivers on the field and a running back and the tight end, and then the third wide receiver doesn't really play much. That's why Juwan Jennings for the 49ers and Braxton Berrios for the Dolphins who use Alec Ingold and now the Texans to some degree.

If you were to go to a team like that, that's the perfect spot for him. If he goes to the Dolphins, where they use the fullback a ton, and he can be the every down two-way George Kittle on that team, I think that's kind of what maximizes both his NFL potential and probably his fantasy potential, especially in best ball, where in best ball, we love George Kittle. I don't care about the games where he has three targets in best ball. I care about the games where he has three touchdowns. I care about the games where he has a 60 yard touchdown. So I think Theo Johnson could be a prototypical two way tight end,

especially if he goes to one of those highly consolidated teams. Absolutely. That's a, that is Theo Johnson, a great athlete, very little production. We're going to hope that changes in the NFL. Whether in the game or in life, the right coverage can make all the difference. Securian Canada gives you that coverage. For more than 65 years, Securian Canada has been helping Canadians build secure tomorrows. Their insurance solutions are designed to help protect you and your loved ones financially, giving you the peace of mind to focus on what truly matters.

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And a lot of people rank seems to be getting some steam here recently as a potential day to pick out of Kansas State. Benson it. He does have, when you look at his production in terms of a percentage of Kansas state's production, it looks a lot better than when you just look at the raw numbers. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And you have to, you have to factor that in, especially with like, again, we mentioned Iowa brutal, brutal offense compared to, to some of these teams where, you know, if you're on a team with Joe Burrow throwing 55 touchdown passes or 60 touchdown passes or whatever it is, then, you know, you're only going to be a small percentage.

The thing with, with Ben Senate is he, he falls into a similar group with with Theo Johnson, where he's very well-rounded tight end. Right. And he can do a lot of different things. He can line up a wide receiver. He can line up at fullback. And you look at the numbers and the production is there to some degree. The concern I have with him, and again, like I mentioned, I'm not a huge film guy, but when I do watch film for tight ends, what I look for is people creating for themselves and making difference making plays where you go out and you win verse man to man and you are breaking tackles and you're evading guys and you're looking

for you're looking for creases you're looking for space with ben with ben senate i didn't i didn't see much of that you know a lot of his big plays are him him catching touchdowns in the back of the end zone or being forgotten about. He still is – you still see him getting open, but a lot of it is versus zone, versus play action. I saw a lot of, honestly, Luke Schoonmaker in him. And again, with Michigan, it was a lot of play action, a lot of them creating for him versus creating for himself. So with Ben Sennett, again again i think i put him in the group of guys like dalton schultz and jake ferguson where you don't have to be some like special

uh route running genius to produce if you end up in the right spot right 100 90 targets all you need in this world as a tight end right so if he lands in the right spot and the team wants to use him that way i'm in if he ends up on the blocking side of the tree or on a team that even has anybody that's used passing more than him, I'm probably going to be out. And I did see, I think he had the highest off-target rate of any of the tight ends that we're looking at as top 10 guys in this class.

So he did deal with some bad quarterback play as well. And still, I believe, led Kansas State in both receiving yards and touchdowns, or receptions and receiving touchdowns. That's a pretty good sign for a tight end. If this guy is, if he does sneak into day two, like some of the talk seems to be, are you fine with him as a mid to late round two pick in a rookie draft?

Absolutely. I mean, that's going to be the difference maker for us because some of these guys, like I mentioned, and again, we'll talk about Shaquem Bell, but I i mentioned him that's a guy where if he falls in the draft he's dead to us right where so some of these guys i mean even guys that i talk about the profiles i have him ranked ben senate falls in that tier three for me where if he were to go in like the second round to a team that wants him to be their starting tight end day one, then he could be ranked as highest tight end two. When we're talking about his upside, do you think it's that tight end five to seven range

in terms of like on a season basis? Is it more of a tight end eight to 10? Is it a low end starter? Or do you think he's probably not going to ever be like an elite difference maker? I think that, so we talk about like all time seasons, you have to be like a Kyle Pitts or somebody like that. But like I mentioned with Dalton Schultz, he's better than Robert Tunyon,

and Robert Tunyon finished third one year, right? With certain guys, it's all about opportunity. It's about that window of opportunity. We need the combination of talent, scheme, and opportunity, and he crosses the talent threshold where he needs the scheme and opportunity. Brock Bowers, for instance, his talent is so high that no matter where he goes, the opportunity is going to be there and the scheme is going to be there.

For the rest of these guys, we need them. We need to be almost provided for them. We need to look around at, first off, he needs to be the best pass catching tight end in the room when the coach looks around because that matters right like dallas goddard and trey mcbride standing next to zach ertz they could be just as good at catching passes but zach ertz is not a blocker so when they were divvying up the jobs one guy gets to play slot the other guy has to be in there you know in the dirt fist fighting that's what happens luckily you know earth's got moved out of the way and those guys are able to step up, but you have to look out for that with guys like Benson and, and Theo Johnson, a few of these guys. I do think that Senate's kind

of like the, if you're looking at the combination of production and athleticism, he, he has a pretty good combination of both. Like he's not an elite athlete. He doesn't have elite production, but he's not necessarily bad in any of those. And he's also a capable blocker. Exactly. And that's what that, that he doesn't have the concerns that I have with, um, with some of these other guys that could be like part-time players, right? He has the full two way profile. Excellent. Let's talk about, uh, let's talk about the guy that you had in Tier 2. I got him just a little bit lower. Jatavian Sanders. I have all kinds of questions about him, and you're probably going to answer them all. But he was at Texas with plenty of target competition and maybe a little bit of quarterback concerns, although I think that might be overblown for him because it seemed like his targets at least were mostly on target what do you love about sanders yeah so sanders for me uh when you look at when you again when you watch the film on this guy he is one of those guys that's winning in man-to-man he's a great route runner he's making great catches and when he gets the

ball in his hands he's looking to make something happen which with tight ends it's kind of sad to say there's a lot of these guys that are looking around and they're like who's gonna tackle you know let's meet let's meet up and get this over with. I swear, it's like they're just like – Oh, for sure, yes. They're not interested. Or in their mind, they're like, oh, I'm a tight end. I just got to cover the ball and go down.

That's not Sanders' name. He's looking to make stuff happen. He's willing to cut back and make moves, and he looks fast on film, which he's turned out not particularly fast which we'll get to when we get to the other side of things but i will say that this guy he makes life easy for the quarterback he gets open and he uh he didn't have a single drop on 67 targets last year right not a single one uh so sure hands right for me he falls into the group uh like his upside is to be a guy like a zackerts or hunter henry or that that group of players that is just a uh a guy that can line

up in this lot winning man to man and and as sure hands do you view sanders as someone who does have the part-time concerns so he he has those part-time concerns for he can he can block a little bit better than for them say jaheem bell but that that that is a concern that he he's only that type of guy the bigger concern for me is is the speed that's okay if we can if we can cut ahead to the problem here because you you look at the two guys i mentioned right zackers and and hunter henry those are kind of the poster child tight ends that just don't have the speed right and uh boy i was disappointed but that was the most disappointed i was at the combine because i didn't i i've watched so much this guy i was like there's no way he runs a force seven like i was like i was like anything

four six or better and we're feeling good i i thought no way he was a four, six, nine, but he did. And that puts him in that world with Henry and Hertz, where you look at those guys, Zach Hertz absolutely peppered with targets during his career. Right. Peppered. Right. He only had one 1000 yard season and you needed 156 targets to do it at age 28. Right.

And you look at a guy that has a similar profile that doesn't get peppered in hunter henry and that's that's the scary part is that hunter henry when you watch him he beats guys from dan to man he's great in the red zone he scores all these touchdowns right the hunter gets in the head now it's all the time but he just the scheme so far hasn't given him the number of targets you need to succeed without that speed, without that breakout ability. And I think Sanders is going to be that guy. So on the pass-catching side of the tree, which I think he squarely falls, some of these other guys, the concern is they fall on the blocking side. That's even more dangerous.

But with Sanders, the landing spot and the scheme especially is going to be so important for this player. If he goes somewhere where he's just a part-time player or if they have two really good pass catchers, then he's in big trouble because he's not going to break off big chunk plays most likely. Not after the catch. Not after the catch. Now, you mentioned Hunter Henry and really the good fantasy seasons he's had, it's been because he scores eight, nine, ten touchdowns. How in the world did Jatavian Sanders score seven touchdowns in college with his profile? Honestly, it really could have been the competition he's going up against in terms of catching balls like Xavier Worthy. They just had some great players over there. But yeah, I mean,

but when you watch, when you watch him on film, every time he gets the ball in his hand, he's thinking touchdown, you know, he's at least making those moves. And, you know, oftentimes he gets down there, but gets tackled. But yeah, you would have loved, you would like to see more of that from him. and i will say a little side note a hunter henry last year patriots zero screen passes to the tight end right not one the alex van pelt coming over from the browns second most screen the tight end in the league with like uh 20 to to uh david and joku alone so maybe we'll get a little hunter henry I know we're talking rookies here, but I just think a little Hunter Henry

in there. I do appreciate that. So just to clarify, you don't think there's anything in watching Sanders or in his profile that suggests that he's not going to score touchdowns, assuming he has the right role? No, the biggest

indicator, touchdowns are fluky. biggest indicator uh touchdowns are fluky right we know that touchdowns are fluky statistically from year to year travis kelsey even him you can't just pencil him in for 10 touchdowns right but the guys that do best in those situations have size helps but success versus man to man is the biggest thing right and you know we talk about it's kind of become a meme at this point, but we talk about these basketball players and their ability to box out and to create space and have that dexterity. I think from what I've seen from Sanders, from watching him,

I don't think there's any concerns with that because he does great in it. He's great at getting that space and creating separation and catching the ball when it's there. So I don't think he's going to have a problem with that. That is Jatavian Sanders. I had one more guy in my top five, and it was really just because I saw him in other people's top twos or threes that I felt like I needed to include him in the top five.

I have a hard time getting excited about Cade Stover out of Ohio State. I'm wondering if you can help me with that, because it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot there to make me say, yeah, this guy is going to have fantasy football success. You actually kind of summarized it exactly perfectly with a hard time. Getting excited is actually exactly it, man, because he's the thing is he's he's good at everything, but he's not great at it, right? Like his ADOT, his yak, his, you know, he's top top five all those, yards per route run, but nothing really exciting.

I guess the one thing that he is top tier in is catch rate. He caught 80% of his balls, which Brock Bowers is at 78%. But beyond that, the argument to be made for Cade Stover is one that I that I dislike but because of J.J. Zacharys and Dwayne McFarland and the their models or the success of their models I have to you have to acknowledge teammate score right right yeah Adam Azer with the teammate the teammate corollary all it's like because he go the wide receivers are so good at Ohio State. It's like, how do you get the ball to Cade Stover? You're winning every week. So there's no reason to say, hey, we've got to get it to Cade.

It's the same thing with J. Jim McCarthy. It's like, you win every single game. What did you want him to go to Jim Harbaugh and say, hey, I know we're undefeated, but what if I were to look a little better? What if I were to throw – what if J. Jim would get a little more action? Can you imagine – it's like with Cadeate stover how do you go and say hey i know we have marvin harrison's son but like what if what if we get a little more few more targets to kate you know so i think that's argument for him uh he so here's the big concern i have for the kate

stovers and the theo johnsons and especially like tip ryman is that when you listen to bill belichick right right he came out and said that this new kickoff setup is really going to push guys that are the old kickoff was all cornerbacks and wide receivers and fast guys this new one is going to be big bruisers right and hybrid hybrid tight end fullback type players are going to be uh huge for this setup and that could push guys that are good at blocking and also definitely fit that mold up the board a little bit like well like drew sample when he went in the second round tricked a lot of people because they thought it's like around tight end he's got a catch but they just liked his blocking right right those guys could go even higher now,

where teams look at Theo Johnson and say, hey, you know what? This guy's a good blocker, and he's going to be on every special teams unit we have because he's perfect for this new kickoff, and the floor is so good. We'll just take him, and that might trick some people. With Theo, at least he has a little more athleticism.

But with Cade Stover and then these guys, especially Tip Ryman, Tip Ryman is going to be maybe the best kickoff player in the league and that's not going to be great for fantasy football that i do think there will be some complicating factors when talking about draft capital both in that way and maybe with some running backs the teams are looking at now as returners that are going to get drafted higher just for that purpose i just just going back to stover one last time, does he fit into that, we talked about,

like the Ferguson-Dalton-Schultz range of, he just needs to land in the perfect spot and sure he could be a top 12 tight end, but you're probably not getting much more. Yeah, I call it the Austin Hooper award, where it's like Austin Hooper, great when the Falcons throw 50 more passes than any other player, but otherwise he's kind of just a guy. And, you know, you go to Dalton Schultz's player profiler page, his best comparable player is Austin Hooper. And Cade Stover fits right in

that category where if a team wants to make him a focal point of the offense, we'll draft him in redraft. But in dynasty, those windows open and they close all the time for kind of middle of the pack tight ends. It's like the day three running back that just happens to be an RB1 yet next year. Let's just, let's sell off that and not count on it for future years. That is Cade Stover. Those are the top five tight ends that I wanted to talk to Andrew about. We're going to take one more break and then we're going to get to his favorite tight ends that we didn't talk about yet. Miller Lite. The light beer brewed for people who love the taste of beer and the perfect pairing for your game time. When Miller Lite set out to brew a light beer, they had to choose great taste or 90 calories per can.

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Don't overthink how you hydrate. Life's full of choices. Smart water is a simple one. We are back and I've made you wait 40 minutes to talk about one of the guys in your top three tight ends. So let's get it on. Who is the other tier two tight end we haven't talked about yet for you? Yes. And I have no problem with people that don't rank this guy top five, to be honest, because he's the highest risk, highest reward guy. But again, we only care about upside. Every class is only a couple of that come out so everybody else is just doesn't matter so this guy completely goes away i don't care because right you know give me the roster spot right but jaheim bell

right the knock on him is his size but this guy is 6'2 241 and bro Brock Bowers is 6'3", 243. Is that one inch and pound? Is that everything? And when you watch Gene Bell, this guy, he went to South Carolina, and they actually used him. They had an inline tight end and used him. They went with the Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, inline tight end, and then tight end that we just move around that way. So he actually got 75 carries with that group.

And he decided, and the other tight end as well, they both said, we're leaving. We want to be the star somewhere. He goes to Florida State where he gets all these screens, gets all these touches, and he shows what he can do in terms of broken tackle, in terms of yards per route run. In my article that I wrote, I had to include some information from Scott Barrett. Scott Barrett's looking at the yards per route run. In my article that I wrote, I had to include some information from Scott Barrett. Scott Barrett's looking at the yards per route run for this guy is the best

that we've seen from a tight end since 2015 in his best year, which is going to include the span with Kyle Pitts and the span with Brock Bowers and Laporta and Kincaidade so this guy is no joke and if a team selects him to be there evan ingram or mark andrews out of the slot then we're in right now the comp i have for him isn't quite evident and because he doesn't run a 4-4-2 right the comp for him is more of like a chig a conch right and again the uh you know you can see the flashes of the 40 plus yard plays and the big plays him, but he could end up in that category where he's just a part-time player. But I look around and I say, which of these guys skew pass catching and can be those full-time guys and which are just going to end up being in-line blockers? And I always gravitate towards who can play wide receiver, who can be a wide receiver that I can start a tight end because that's how you get the big upside of the modern nfl and if you want i have a couple names i can throw out there real quick with yes please yeah so after that we're just playing the game of

like who has rare nfl talent and who or one rare skill right well i look at uh devin culp from washington he ran a 447 and he basically they just used two tight ends over there with Jack Westover and him, and they had three wide receivers that are all going to get drafted. I'm sure you talked on your wide receiver show about those boys over there, especially Roma Dunze. So if a team looks at him and says, you know what, he's got this one skill that we're going to go for that I'm in.

I look at Dahlian Holker out of Colorado State, and it's just, again, sometimes when you're looking at the box score numbers, it's hard to ignore this guy that he led in every category, right? Receptions and yards and everything. So again, he's not particularly fast, but I have a team. Yeah. I remember people making arguments against Trey McBride's box score scouting and saying, you know, he wasn't actually that good. And now he's like a top three tight end in Dynasty. Right.

And you talk about the knack. You talk about the knack where it's like, why is Hunter Renfro? Why does Hunter Renfro get open? Why is Wes Welk? Like, you know, some of these guys, it's like, why? Anquan Bolden ran like a four state or something like that. It's like, how is this guy always open? And he's just a

good football player. So you can't throw it out the window. And the last name I'll mention, just because I got to upset at least one fan base. The Florida State fans do not want Johnny Wilson to play tight end. Johnny Wilson doesn't want to play tight end.

And he probably will be a wide receiver. But if a team turns to Johnny Wilson and says, hey, you know what, bud? This year, you're going to work out with the tight ends and the tight end coach and maybe play some tight ends. What's he going to say? No. No, of course he's going to do what he has to do to make the team. And that's how we got Darren Waller. And that's how we got Juwan Johnson. So if that comes down to it, and we have a 6'7 guy, right, that – what is he, like 6'7, 340? That is now – right. The day I hear a rumor of him working out with the tight end coach one time, I'm'm messaging sleeper and yahoo and cvs i'm

hitting you up directly i'm saying we need tight end eligibility right now for johnny wilson because that's everything in fantasy right it's that little that you being able to put him in that one spot right i think that's a fun place to go so let's just say like johnny wilson gets drafted and they when he when his name pops up the team that drafted made a point of just saying like make sure you list him as a tight end and so it says johnny wilson tight end select wherever he's gonna be tight and eligible in your rookie drafts is he tied into i've in every metric he is i i put him in the i just for fun i put him in there and and it's green across the board him and and Brock Bauer, it's very tough.

Zero percent pass block rate, right? You know what I mean? It's like 80% of his – he even played some in-line staff. It's not like he didn't. And the thing is, he was on a team that Florida State just liked those players. Like he was using not much differently than jaheem bell right they just kind of moved all these big boys around they keon coleman too the big there's a hog squad over there with the pass catchers you know and right and uh you know if you were to tell me johnny

wilson and and keon coleman and jaheem bell were all tight ends then jaheem bell would be ranked third right but yeah that's not the way it is. But yeah, I mean, statistically speaking, yeah, he would easily be the tight end too. Okay, I'm not going to let you pick Johnny Wilson for this exercise, but I did want to finish with, we're going to do a little, a rookie tight end mock. Okay.

Just, you know, we'll take before the draft. We'll see if we can get through maybe our top eight tight ends. We'll get to a point where i'm going to say something dumb and then we'll be done with the muck but i'm going to let you go first i don't know who you're going to take but but you can you can take the first tight end i get to take the first one huh yeah i'm going to take tip tip rhyman no i think i'll take i think i will take brock powers here okay brock powers goes yeah 101 in the tight end draft it's just to throw it in

there this guy pro football focus he was first uh over the last like decade or so in yards receptions touchdowns yards per route run yards after the catch uh he had five rushing touchdowns including a 75 yard touchdown and he won the john mackie award for the best tight end college football twice so he goes first overall what he led the team in all those categories as an 18 year old freshman like yeah yeah he stopped being good like sometimes you do that he never stopped doing that he did every year right all three years yes so brock bauer's clearly going one i'm going to take theo johnson athleticism over everything give me theo johnson at 102 in the tight end draft you go who's your who's your 103 well since i i know your rankings i know you know i'm not going to go games and

shit i'm going to go off my own but i know your rankings here i'm going to take jatavian sanders i think jatavian sanders at 103 hunter henry type perfect perfect i will uh i'll stick with my rankings and take ben senate so so we've got Brock Bowers. We've got Theo Johnson. We've got Jatavian Sanders. We've got Ben Senate. And now it gets a little bit interesting, right? And I will say this Ben Senate in a lot of the mocks I've been doing,

he goes often, even as a tight end too, right? Yes. Because people are draft. I, I, my rankings always skew so heavily towards upside,

but if you're just trying to rank for who's most likely to be an nfl tight end ben sen and theo johnson are right there you know uh so sticking with that strategy i'll go with the boom or bust play in gmail i like it's jaheim bell and then i will take kade stover i guess um reluctantly but i think it's probably the right pick at this point in the draft. You take one more, and we will call it a draft. Okay. Well, then I'll use this opportunity to sneak another name in there. Good.

Shout out to Derek Brown of the Fantasy Pros. He's another guy that's also in on this player. Eric All from Iowa. Out of the Iowa Tight End Factory. The factory, yes. Yeah. all from iowa uh out of the iowa tight end factory the factory yes yeah on my sheet when you look at yards per route run and all those stats especially yards per route run verse man 3.74 which is like absurd he's way up there it's just he had this like spine issue when he was at michigan they had surgery on and then he tore his acl so it's very very scary but if a team nfl team does the

medicals and they're on board then then I'm on board tight end factory. Give me Eric Hall. Love it. Love it. Love it. And I tell you what, thank you, Mike. Mike was right. You were the guy to have on for the tight end preview.

Really appreciate you being a part of this show. Before we go, tell everybody one more time where they can find your work and what you've got going on with the Scott Fishbowl. Absolutely. Coop, a fiasco on Twitter is where you can find your work and what you've got going on with the Scott Fishbowl. Absolutely. Coop A Fiasco on Twitter is where you can find me. Again, I share all my articles, all my stuff's over at Fantasy Alarm. You can find all my videos and stuff on the Fantasy Alarm YouTube. And right now, the Scott Fishbowl, with this draft coming up, you have two opportunities to flex your knowledge on everybody. First, with the actual contest, right, where you can go in and pick all these draft props. If you win that, man, you show that you've got this draft knowledge. We've got people in there, Dave Brown, Thor Nystrom, you're in

there. You can prove that. And if you win, then you get in the Scott Fishbowl and you could potentially win the biggest tournament in the industry. And Scott was nice enough that, or actually Bob Gilchrist took credit for it in the comments. So we'll say Bob Gilchrist is nice enough. Bob's nice enough, yes. That if you have a Reddit account and you just comment on the Reddit post, whether or not you want to get into the tournament, which you do a little charity donation. If you just comment on the Reddit post, you can get into the Scott. We're going to give away a Scott Fishbowl invite.

You guys are going to spin the wheel on that. And then I'm giving away a couple of best ball guides for people to comment too. So at the very least, go in and comment. But if you have an opportunity, donate a little money, fill out the form, and show what you can do and potentially get into that tournament and also raise money for the amazing cause of Fantasy Camp. The last thing we need to do is give Scott Fish more, more, more credit. He's already got the biggest tournament in fantasy football named after

him. We're going to give some love to Bob and everybody else. And John Bosch and, and shout out to big shout out to the, the, the avi makers, man, the Jordan loop.

And look at those. I mean, like that's, that's the real grind and the real work and incredible work. It just brings everything together man so shout out to them and shout out to mike file of course my number one friend of me we we love our trash talk but but you know he's just a great guy man yeah open doors like this for people like me i appreciate it i hey i appreciate you thank

you for being a part of this thank you you to everybody who was active in the chat and active chat today. Thank you, guys. Thanks to everybody listening on the podcast. We will talk to you next week.