Fantasy Football Today - Offseason Edge, Rookie Draft Guide, Startup Strategy, & More! (2/6 Fantasy Football Today Dynasty)

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Fantasy Football Today Dynasty is available on the Audacy app and Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts! SUBSCRIBE to FFT Dynasty on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fantasy-football-today-dynasty/id1696679179 SUBSCRIBE to FFT Dynasty on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2aHlmMJw1m8FareKybdNfG?si=8487e2f9611b4438&nd=1 Scott Boulanger and Chalk from The Undroppables join Heath Cummings on FFT Dynasty to discuss everything related to the dynasty league! Follow our FFT team on Twitter: @FFToday, @AdamAizer, @JameyEisenberg, @daverichard, @heathcummingssr, @ctowerscbs Follow the brand new FFT TikTok account: https://www.tiktok.com/@fftoday Watch FFT on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/fantasyfootballtoday Get 20% off Fantasy Football Today merch: https://store.cbssports.com/collections/fantasy-football-today%20?utm_source=podcast-apple-com&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=buy-our-merch&utm_content=fantasy-football-collection Join our Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/FantasyFootballToday/ Sign up for the FFT newsletter https://www.cbssports.com/newsletter You can listen to Fantasy Football Today on your smart speakers! Simply say "Alexa, play the latest episode of the Fantasy Football Today podcast" or "Hey Google, play the latest episode of the Fantasy Football Today podcast." To hear more from the CBS Sports Podcast Network, visit https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's having the spend to power your scale with no preset spending limit. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash businessplatinum. Welcome to Fantasy Football Today, Dynasty. I am your host, Heath Cummings, and I am excited about today's show. We have a couple of two special guests from the Undroppables. Scott Belanger, a.k.a. Jax Falcone, a.k.a. on Twitter, Dino Game Theory. And we've got Chalk from the Undroppables.

You see, if you're watching here on YouTube, at 101Chalk on Twitter. Guys, thank you so much for being here. I am looking forward to talking to you. Let's just get started. And Chalk, you can go first, and then Scott, join right in. What do you guys have going on over at the Undroppables right now? Yeah, so we have a ton of exciting stuff right now. We're knee deep in the rookie prospecting cycle, diving in, looking at the quarterback, running back, wide receiver, tight end prospects in the 2024 class. So we're really you know, we're really doing our analysis of the

prospects, determining, you know, what our rankings are. And then speaking of rankings, you know, Scott and I are doing a full refresh of our dynasty rankings, kind of top down, bottom up approach, given, you know, all the changing landscape in the NFL. So I'll hand over to Scott to kind of touch on what else we're doing over at the Androppables. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're doing a lot. You know, the Undroppables is definitely a collaborative of passionate people creating content. That's what we are. And so, you know, we've got people doing all sorts of stuff. But, you know, obviously the basis of what Chuck and I do is try and make sure that we're giving actionable advice for Dynasty gamers. My show is a weekly show. It's The Undrafted. I can find it where podcasts are found. But on that show, I bring in a variety of different Dynasty minds and fantasy football minds to try

and crack the code. So it's a lot of fun. We have a lot of fun on that show. But trying to be the very, very best Dynasty gamers we can be. We love fantasy football. We love football, but Chalk and I both found early on that we have a proclivity towards Dynasty fantasy football, and we're very good at it. We wanted to share some of our secrets and things that we do and practices that we stick to that have helped us be successful over time. That's the genesis of what he and I do. I do think that like this part, like dynasty, this segment of the fantasy football community probably draws those people who have had success, right? Like you don't want to be drafting these guys and keeping them forever. If you finished 10th every year, you want to play dynasty fantasy football because you think you're smarter than everyone in your

redraft league. And now I'm going to go draft guys and get to keep them forever that's somewhat true for sure i also think there's a bit of a a uniqueness to it where there's a lot of sort of you know churning of value um you know and if you're the type of person that can sort of see that coming and understand how to you know uh sort of capitalize on value and understand rising and falling assets and all that sort of thing then if you see the game that way it's kind of fun i've also described it heath and this may you know for those who play madden uh redraft is like playing an arcade mode dynasty is like playing on franchise mode yes absolutely that was uh i was all i think i would always get to a point with that game.

I play against my son every once in a while now. I don't play the full Dynasty mode, but I'd always get to a point to where I didn't hardly find myself playing the football games anymore. I would just simulate through all the game action. I want to get to the trades and the draft picks and all that stuff. So I do think that's probably not that uncommon amongst Dynasty fantasy football managers. I think today's show is going to be great for you guys.

We are going to get you an edge in your startup draft and your rookie draft and off season edge and in season edge. We're going to talk about the art of dynasty and the anatomy of series. Of course, as we always do, we'll start with three questions for our guests. I'll have you both answer these questions. It can be the same answer, but I'll address it to one of you first. The other one can follow. Chuck, we'll start with you and just feel free to follow up, Scott. What's the biggest edge strategically in dynasty leagues right now? Yeah. I mean, I think Scott mentioned it just a second ago, but I think it's attacking the market inefficiencies that we're seeing uh you know across dynasty leagues right there's a disparity in perspectives and

player takes and player evaluations uh you know i think a website that i like to actually you know really use uh for more like research purposes like keep trade cut you know i could see you know where the consensus or the crowd is kinding certain players. Jax has recently tweeted something about Dallas Goddard being a buy. For me, when I look at that and I compare with Jax and my rankings, our consensus rankings, and I notice a disparity or inefficiency in the market, I'm going to attack those. If I see a player that's being undervalued, I'm going to attack those, right? If I see a player that's being undervalued, you know, I'm going to send out trade offers. Yeah, I think for me, the other thing too, I love that, what Chuck just shared.

I was looking, I think taking a long-term view. I think right now, most Dynasty gamers are a bit fickle. And I think a lot of times they're sort of, there's a new sort of DFS mindset to Dynasty, where guys are making trades on a weekly basis, just trying to get the next new hotness for that week and win every week. And it's actually quite impressive to watch some of these people play that way. But I think that's where there's a ton of value seeping out of these transactions, long-term value, where you can build that juggernaut.

You know, Dynasty is something where, you know, Ryan McDowell sort of famously coined productive struggle. And we do sort of a modified productive struggle in the way that we actually don't like to struggle too much. But we like to understand that, you know, maybe pushing a little bit uh into the future is is wise but in doing that it's easier to do sometimes when you're playing with really sort of a lot of win now dfs minded uh gamers that are out there so i think that's one of the the bigger uh advantages that still exist uh amazingly in dynasty yeah there are a lot i talk about and like i'm a sicko i really enjoy teams at the end of their rope and going through that rebuild process. I'll talk about that on Twitter. There are people who play Dynasty fantasy football who just can't imagine the idea of sacrificing one year's entry fee.

They have no stomach for it. That's fine. You can play Dynasty in a variety of different ways. There's lots of ways to attack it. But I do think you're right. Like if you're playing in a league with people like that, it makes it much easier. Where it gets hard, and I've had this happen before too,

is when you've got four guys thinking they're rebuilding at the same time. And then you maybe run short on buyers. Let's go to question number two, Scott, and we'll start with you here. So in shock, you kind of hit on this. Like there are guys who are market efficiencies just as players. Who do you think the biggest edge in terms of player eval in Dynasty right now? And it doesn't have to necessarily be an individual. It could be an archetype of a player as well. That was interesting. I sort of read that question when you shared it a little bit differently. I just think it was like, you want to be ready to be wrong about your your your player takes i think

you know one of the things we do or that people do is they sort of have a player take and then they're afraid to sort of come off it because they'll look like they're you know i don't know i don't know why to me it's like be ready to be wrong we say it all the time on our show and have a very fluid approach to player evaluation because there's always new information. So as soon as there's new information, add it to your evaluation and then have new evaluation and continuously be doing that. I think for us, you know, we use, I use film and data, you know, and I use film and data to try and understand a player's utilization. I think utilization of player in the NFL is something that I still think most gamers are not considering in Dynasty. They sort of think player good, player bad. That's it.

You know, but in a lot of cases, it's like, well, what is player X going to be asked to do at the next level? I think that's a very, very big question, you know, depending upon what type of player he was in college and all that sort of stuff. And I would just say that if you don't have the time to do that, find an analyst or a couple analysts who do and follow them. But if you can do the work yourself, that's where you can find a lot of inefficiencies in player eval. Yeah, you know, I want to really echo what Jack's saying. I think, you know, Kiko probably touched on this in a little bit, but, you know, using that Bayesian inference, right, being water,

being able to change the perspectives, like Jack said, if you're ready to be wrong, you know, and I think that's the biggest edge you can have with player evaluation. When you start anchoring down, right, into a player take and you lock in, like, I don't like this player or I really like this player or one of your league mates has those sentiments, right, and you're able to kind of exploit that or take advantage of those kind of perspectives or locks.

I think that's really an edge that you can take with player evaluation. And then, of course, Jack's going to talk about this later, but using archetypes, using the anatomy series that he's put a lot of time into to really evaluate players and understand how do they fit against or compare against the most successful or the players that really kind of set the mold in terms of elite production. I do think that's one area where still doing so much redraft and weekly projections and weekly rankings really helps me and might help Dynasty players who are having a hard

time with that embracing being wrong. If you want to embrace being wrong, just do weekly projections and rankings for a season and see how wrong you are every single week about if you're really good, 35% of players.

And then recognize that that happens on a season-long basis just as much. Heath, we had talked about that on an earlier show that Chuck and I had done that we found that doing projections gave us a huge advantage. It is an awful thing to do.

I don't recommend doing projections to anyone. Like I don't recommend it. It is not fun. It is. I am doing, I am starting 2024 projections in February. It's painstaking. It's too much work. It's not fun. There's no real

payoff. It's kind of just like, oh, those are done now. All right. I guess I did them, you know, but what really happens is when you start to look at each team, you start to say, okay, oh, well, wait a second. Where's the, where are the targets going to come from for player X or Y? And I have to figure this out. They can't all have 150 targets, you know, if they're only going to throw the ball 400 times. It's like, so you start to really have to place these things. And when you have a finite resource of targets or carries or whatever, sometimes it's the other way around too.

Like you'll get to a team, you're like, well, someone's got to get the ball here. Who the hell is it going to be? You know, you start to find the sleeper that way. So those are two ways that, that for sure, man, that one has been an eye-opener for chalk and i so we'll go to chalk chalk at first here on the third question then scott that you can follow up your friends are starting a new dynasty league let's assume these are not your analyst friends these are your your non-fantasy football

analyst friends starting a new dynasty league and i said you know what you're the expert one setting one rule we're not even going to vote on it you get to choose what are you using that one rule on super flex that is the most common answer that we get um i asked this question to almost every guest we have on and almost immediately now i will say i do think when it comes to our analysis the analysis that i see around the industry it's it's maybe more weighted in terms of super flex leagues than the number of actual dynasty super flex leagues there are relative to one quarterback leagues uh it's kind of like when ppr became a thing we all jumped to ppr faster than than everybody that doesn't do this for a living did. And then eventually everything caught up.

And so maybe five years, ten years from now, maybe five years, a majority of Dynasty Leagues are Superflex. I know a majority of new Dynasty Leagues are Superflex Leagues. It's just all those legacy leagues that are not. Scott, do you have a second rule besides Superflex? Because I know that you seem very much on board with that one. Hell yeah. And for me, it's like I didn't even think of super flex because it's so like, obviously. But yeah, we do a lot of super flex leagues now for sure.

And it does actually create, you know, strategy around the quarterback position, which I think is great. You know, you actually have to do quarterback eval. Before, I was just like, man, I can just plug and play. I can just, I'll find a quarterback. I'm not worried about quarterbacks. Quarterback's less of an edge, whereas now it is. The one for me, I'll challenge where you went to PPR. We need to change.

This is my hobby horse setting for sure. Chalk knows it. It is half PPR, half point per first down. I've seen Ian Hardit's post. These two plays went for the same amount of fantasy points or whatever. It's like this awful little 100%. look at conversion rate, third down and fourth down conversions. The team that converted more probably won the game. I mean, it is so huge. If you're watching your favorite team and they convert a big third and one, you are fist pumping. You're not fist pumping when it's third and 15

and they dump off to some little scat back for seven. You're not. You're just like, all right, punt, fine, whatever. So I like to reward the plays that are big in real football, half PPR, half point per first down. And it just levels out some of those nonsense plays and elevates Nick Chubb's two-yard run on fourth and one. I agree 100%. The pushback I think that you get on the half point per first down is there's not a lot of sites projecting point per first downs for the year and so how how do i know and i've seen some stuff out there i think generally you can take yards and and multiply it by 0.05 and you get pretty close to what first downs are going to be certain players obviously

of different types produce more than others but i do wonder and and you can start here scott i'm going to go to question number four i guess before we get into some Super Bowl talk. But you've got a league that's been going for five years, ten years, whatever. Yeah. And you've started it as a one-quarterback league, and you've started it as a full PPR or a non-PPR league. I really don't find any way to make these changes in an existing league. If you started a dynasty league, in terms of scoring settings, unless it's something, I mean, it's hard to imagine even one

that wouldn't impact the players on a roster. I guess you could try to do it three years in advance, two years in advance, but there's really no way to change these types of scoring settings in the middle of a dynasty, right? I do agree in principle with you a thousand percent. I think the only way is unanimous. In other words, if I've set up my team so focused on non-PPR and one quarterback that I have no quarterback depth, I've got no future picks, I've got no way to even get it, but I'm dominating in this fashion and you're like, we're going to change it up. You got to get me on board too. Everybody in the league has to be on board. If everybody's on board and everybody agrees, then no problem. Then just do it. Then everybody's cool with it. But there's really no way to sort of make everybody do that. I totally agree because there's too much strategy. I mean,

it's the number one thing we recommend, Chalk and I, in going into a Dynasty League is check the scoring, check the settings, use your strategy specifically around that so if it's our number one uh bit of advice you can't just change it based on that so yeah i agree with you a thousand percent but unanimous go right ahead right it it is super bowl week uh we're seeing all the the videos from vegas now and so we ought to at least talk about the game just a little bit the chiefs and the 49ers i know nobody can tell that's watching on YouTube who I will be cheering for in that game. But I thought it'd be worthwhile to get a couple of smart guys on here and ask them how they thought the game was going to go.

Chalk, you have a Super Bowl prediction? My heart or my head? Because, you know, I think my... Well, I mean, I think the 49ers are going to take it. I think this is their year. Sorry. Sorry, Heath. No, that's okay. That's okay. Now, I do wonder, was that your heart or your head? That was actually my heart. That was your heart? Okay. Excellent. That makes me feel a lot better scott scott what do you got here you know it's funny because every single game i mean even last week you know we've now that the chorus of never bet

against patrick mahomes even though he didn't score in the second half but still there's some magic there to patrick and i will not be choosing against him also i think the bigger force at play is Oz Perlman, who earlier in the year at Jets Hard Knocks picked the Jets to win 31-21. But really, he didn't say that. He told Meikle Hardman, you will win 31-21. So Oz Perlman, I'm not going against him. Chiefs, 31, 49ers, 21, book it. Yeah, I think I would probably say Chiefs and the under if I was in it just because their defense, it's so weird

because even when I saw a breakdown the other day of how these two teams have spent their salary cap, and the Chiefs have spent so much more on offense and the 49ers spent so much more on defense, and the Chiefs' defense is so much better than the 49ers in their offense. Other than Mahomes, their defense is so much better than the 49ers' in their offense. Other than Mahomes, their offense is so much better than the Chiefs'. Listen, I think the reason it's so hard to bet against Mahomes

is it's hard to believe this will be a game that's not a game in the fourth quarter. And it's hard to imagine Patrick Mahomes getting the ball on the final drive or with five minutes left and not going and doing what he needs to do. It'll probably happen at some point in the next 10 to 15 years, though. Brady comes back. Well, that was painful.

Brady handed Mahomes his first regular season loss, his first playoff loss, and first Super Bowl loss. Yeah, that is very true and i am hurting again now all right let's move on let's look at these two teams from a dynasty perspective though do you have a favorite player from the chiefs or the 49ers at cost in dynasty right now i love this question i wonder chalk if you go first because i've got mine kind of locked in but this is a good question heath. What do you think, Chalk? I mean, I think for me it's Brock Purdy, right?

You know, I think he's an enigma for many people. But I think it's Brock Purdy. And I'll probably touch on him throughout the show today because, you know, it's a topic or a player that's come up quite a bit for me. And he's viewed mostly as like a high-end, mid-range QB2, I think, for dynasty purposes right now. And I agree with you. I've got him inside of my top 12 just because I do think,

like, why is Kyle Shanahan going somewhere? Like, take one of those guys away. I still think Purdy's going to be pretty good. Yeah, I mean, just the weapons he has, the offense he's in, right? So, yeah. Yeah, I gave this some thought, Heath. It's funny because it's certainly not any of the Chiefs wide receivers. They're Rashi Rice, and Rashi Rice is not a buy. He's because he's so steamed up. I think, you know, there's a really interesting conversation to have about Rashi right now. I think he definitely exceeded expectations and I think he's going to have a

role in that offense. I think, um, what was I listening to? Oh, rich rebar and JJ Zachary. Son's recent pod, uh,

was really good. And they talked a little bit about Rashi and some of his limitations. He was like, uh, first in the NFL and yards after the catch or something like that right there with Debo. And so his aid out was super low, caught a lot of close to the line of scrimmage plays and

took them deep. Very, very interesting analysis. I'll be looking into that as well with my Rashi Rice takes. But what about George Kittle? George Kittle has been like a top five tight end on a seasonal basis. He has been so, so good. And for some reason, they hold the offense against him. But at tight end, you're looking for ceiling.

You're looking for a player that can win you weeks. George Kittle is 100% that. He is the best tight end in the NFL from an NFL perspective. He's still a productive player for fantasy, and he's super efficient. And he's been super efficient over the last, his whole career. He's actually 10 yards per target over the last five seasons. Absolutely incredible. That laps the field better than Andrews,

better than all the tight ends that sort of qualify. So if he's that efficient, look, you just have to imagine sometimes when the volume gets turned up for him, it's certainly possible. As you said, their defense didn't look as good. Next year could be a more pass-heavy offense. Debo sometimes gets hurt. I know there's limitations with Kittle in that offense, but there's not limitations with him as a player. We project in injuries to fade him. He's 30 years old, but tight end, hey, if you can get a two- or three-year window with an elite tight end, right now he's basically valued as the tight end 10 behind a lot of uh tight ends including

even kelsey um you know kelsey might not even play next year i think you i think he will though but um i think i think george kittle is a huge buy the other one if you're really going to talk about kittle maybe going someplace maybe it's like noah gray or something like that that could be a a player to buy sneaky yeah i think that that kittle one, it highlights something I want to talk about here when we come back from the break, but that idea that, yes, I mean, he's turned 30. So for a chunk of the league, he's lost a large amount of his appeal. You'll look at a lot of trade charts or just the evaluations, and he's being pushed down by those 33% of dynasty managers who was thinking, I don't want anybody 30 years old. Right.

I think it kind of, we'll talk about this a little bit more later, but he's the type of guy where if you're a contender, you need to be willing to make an offer for him. That's more than what he's actually valued at because he's more valuable to you than he is to a lot of people in the league. Let's take a short break here when we come back we'll get into the art of dynasty did you know 66 of utility damage is caused by not requesting a locate don't let your project become part of this statistic a quick locate request can save you from

unexpected downtime financial penalties and keep you safe don't let avoidable damage cost you time and money click before you dig ensure your next project is safe visit ontarioonecall.ca it's free it's easy it's the law data sourced from the orcga 2023 dirt report okay so we are back chalk i want to start with you you've you've written this series on on the undroppables the art of dynasty uh 15 chapters you basically wrote a book on the internet and it's fantastic uh just kind of tell everybody what what you set out to do and uh what they can expect if they go look at it yeah so um yeah i yeah, I mean, you know, we were talking a little bit about this

before the show started, Heath, and, you know, the Art of Dynasty is really, you know, my way of approaching the game of Dynasty Fantasy Football and applying kind of my own kind of career background and my own kind of, you know, I guess life experiences and, you know, some of the books I've read, of course, I think we've all read The Art of War. So that's kind of where the

inspiration for this really came from. But really taking the strategic approach and looking at the nuances of how to long term plan, how do you manage a dynasty team? You know, I come from a legal slash risk management background. I'm not a data analyst, like I'm not a spreadsheet merchant. So, you know, my contribution to the community, I felt that was to kind of lean on my experience and my education, which is kind of what I did, right, focusing more on strategy, and, you know, how to approach the game, how to plan, how to construct rosters and pivot between competing goals. So that's really kind of the essence of what the Art of Dynasty is and what I had set out to do. Scott, I know that you've probably been through every inch of this.

And so I just wanted to like, if you're telling somebody what's the best part of the Art of Dynasty, what would you tell them? That's a tough question um yeah i think uh i think it it's that process over player take too it's like when whenever you're sort of you know so many people are you know the questions on twitter is who won this trade or you know and i always tell chalk i'm always like give me more information i need more i i don't know who won that trade because i don't know what this other guy, what's his end game? Where is he going?

Where is his team at? There's just so much. So when you have all these situations, you really want to be situation understanding. And then you make some moves. And, you know, I've made terrible trades in my day. No, really. I mean, we all have.

You look back, son of a, what was I thinking? You can't win like that. You can't win thinking, oh, I'm just going to win every single deal. I know the players better than everybody else. That Bayesian process to me is the biggest part, is taking the information, being so happy to be wrong sometimes and just say, not a problem. I'm going to move forward with the new information and move forward. To me, being Bayesian and that part of the series is something that we challenge ourselves to do in every way. Even with things like the Art of Dynasty, if there's something in there that's not right anymore, let's change it. Let's not stick to it. Nope, that's what we said. We had to stick to it. That whole idea, you know, and really in business or entertainment or

whatever you're doing, that's what you have to do. You have to stay relevant and continue to move forward, not look back. You brought up trades, terrible trades. And every time I hear that term, I think about, I was in, I'm in John Bosch's auction addicts league and you know how a John Bosch league is, I assume like, yes. And this was year one and there's no trade deadline of course um and so i i this was the peak michael thomas got hurt i think it was week 14 or week 15 and i had made it to the semi-finals and i was pushing so i i traded him away for cooper cup and knowing that i was sacrificing the future

to just get these last couple of weeks and win the inaugural year. And Cup got hurt the next week. I lost in the championship game. And was just devastated for a couple of months that I'd given up Michael Thomas, a 77% catch rate guy, 150 catches. Like, this guy's going to do this for five more years. And then Cooper Cup turned into Cooper Cup and Michael Thomas neveromas never really played again so right you never know right it's um even when you think you lose a trade sometimes you don't the chapter one here chalk makes sense startup drafts do you do you have a just kind of a prevailing sentiment about startup dress like something you

can do regardless of of where your draft position is regardless of what kind of a prevailing sentiment about startup dress, like something you can do regardless of, of where your draft position is, regardless of what kind of league it is like, this is the thing you do to win startup dress. Yeah. I mean, you know, Jax and I talk about this often Jax Jax actually, you know, kind of wrote the initial kind of book on, on this tactic and the cornerstone strategy in startup drafts is,

you know, trading back, you know, um, you know, I think, I think nowadays it's very popular and very common and sometimes extremely challenging to trade back, especially your early first round picks. Uh, but I think that's really the key, right. Being able to move around the draft board while accumulating, you know, long-term assets, such as rookie picks, uh, or, uh, some of those like, you know, long-term assets, such as rookie picks, or some of those like, you know, fifth, sixth, seventh round picks in kind of building teams, you know, more around depth and long-term assets versus trying to trade up and getting yourself, you know, two elite assets while giving up, you know, mortgaging the future. So I would say that would be probably the cornerstone strategy for startups.

The idea of trading back, does that necessarily infer that you are drafting for year two or drafting for year three, or can you take that type of approach and still be someone who's competing in year one? I love it when a league mate says to me, how the heck did he get all the future draft picks and he's still got the best team? No, I don't think you're

competing for next year. You're competing right away. It does depend upon the... We talk about this all the time. It does depend upon the roster construction of the league. In other words, if it's a 10-team league, start eight. You don't really need to's a 10 team league, start eight, you don't really need to trade back because where are you trading? You're only starting eight players, you know? So, but most of these dynasty leagues now are super flex. They are start 10 or

more. I play in some start 14. I mean, crazy stuff. You know, but if you're starting 11 or 12, 12, especially that means depth now becomes more important than it is in a start eight or start nine or start 10. So 12 team and more and 11 starting positions or more trading back becomes even more valuable to year one. But I hear a lot of people will say, well, I tried to trade back, but I couldn't. No, you didn't try and trade back. Because if you do want to trade back, but I couldn't. No, you didn't try and trade back. Cause if you do want to trade back, you generally can. Depending upon your startup, most people play with like an eight hour clock, which is a long time, but you know, because we're all busy, we're doing different things. We've got to take care of kids and sleep and work and all the, you know, right. So we play

this eight hour clock. And I always argue a lot of times you might be on the clock and you may be one of only one or two people who know that you're on the clock. So it's not like nobody wants your pick. It's that nobody even cares that you're picking. Right. So sometimes you have to sort of start that conversation. Maybe you sit on the clock a little bit. You know, maybe you say, hey, you know, you send out a few DMs. You start maybe send out a couple of little teaser trades, you know, knowing your league, knowing who's up and knowing who might want a player that's up reaching out to you because Patrick Mahomes is on the, on the board.

And I say, Hey man, you know, Patrick fell to one Oh three. Do you want to make a move here? And you start saying, well, maybe not. And then you start thinking about it for an hour and then you call me back and you go, actually, what are you thinking about? You know? So patience a little bit when you, especially early in the draft, look late in the draft, you sit on an eight hour clock and round 15, you might get a little bit of flack,

but early on those picks and those leverage points are super important. And if you don't engage with somebody, at least one of those other managers in trade talks, you probably didn't do your due diligence. And look, I get it. If it's a, if it's a low money league and you don't really want to spend all that time, I get it. But if you want to play the strategy as it's meant to be, you got to engage. I think that's, that's one of the biggest things. And like, I hear a lot of people say, I can't get any trades done. And it's, it's often because either you're trying to quote, win every trade in a way that they can't, or it's because you just like, it's not easy. Like maybe you have one or two guys in your league that are accustomed to sending trade offers out regularly.

The rest of them are mostly responding to offers or phone calls that they get. If you want to be someone who trade, I I've multiple times had a player that I wanted to get rid of for a second or a third round pick. And I just go down the draft order and like, who, who will take the, who will give me a second round pick and i've never ever in the league um but you're right it does take some time and some people don't want to spend that much time and i get that right chalk chapter five is titled the iron bank

what what in the world is the iron bank and how do i get one yeah so um i mean you know i can't take credit for coining the term iron bank that's one of our old friends mike lou uh who coined the term you know years ago so you know hat tip to mike i don't know if you're listening i know you retired from the content game but i want to shout you out there and the iron bank is really you know a vault or storage of long-term assets that, you know, can only appreciate in value, right? So they're insulated from, you know, external factors that, you know, can impact the value, right? So for example, you know, a player is susceptible to injury, to trade, to a change of coaching staff or scheme, right? And any of those things that happen, or he's benched, or

maybe, you know, there's some negative news on him, any of those things happen, that player's value is immediately affected negatively. But for the most part, rookie picks are those types of assets that are really immune. Rookie draft picks, especially those first round picks, are the safest assets to own in Dynasty, and they're going to increase in value. So the Iron Bank is really storing those rookie draft picks, not just in 2024, if we're like looking at this year, but if you're able to get 2025 picks, even 2026 picks. I'm in leagues where people are just sending off 2026 picks like, you know, it's two years off. Like, who cares? You know, I'll throw a second in, right? And as a kind of a kicker in a deal. So that's where it is, is accumulating these draft picks. And whether a draft class is strong or it's a good class or bad class,

you know, deep or not, you know, those first round picks are always going to hold value. And then when the pick is on the clock, you know, the value actually starts to increase. So the closer we get to these rookie drafts, the closer we get to combine and NFL draft, right, the fervor and the hype around rookies, you know, continues to increase a lot of dynasty gamers are even, you know, not really paying attention until February, March.

And then that's when they're starting to pay attention. So yeah, that's really what the iron bank is, is storing that, storing those draft picks. Now Scott, I know that like every dynasty league is different. Our league that we talk about often, Now, Scott, I know that every dynasty league is different. The league that we talk about often, our YOLO dynasty league, is full of a lot of people that I can't convince that they should value draft picks a little bit more based on where they are.

And so in that type of league, I think accumulating the iron bank is a little bit easier. Some leagues, though, it seems to be impossible to get somebody to value current players because the obsession within the league on future picks is... So does this concept change at all depending on your league mates? Is there a type of league maybe where...

Or maybe if we're playing with all analysts, where maybe the picks do get overvalued a little bit? Maybe, but I don't think so. Actually. I think the iron bank is one of those things where it exists and you just need to find a way. Look, maybe you, instead of getting, you know, a second, you get two thirds, you know, maybe that's the, the economy in that league and still worth it. It's still worth, you know, understanding that that's where I want to store

value. And when we talk about storing value, we're talking about a team that may or may not really be trying to win, but, or maybe it is, you know, I mean, if you sold Tyler Lockett for an early second, you know, before the season, people would have been like, ah, it's a little light or whatever, you know, future second, that's it. But now all of a sudden Tyler Lockett is worth nothing. So, you know, if you've gotten two thirds for for him people would have yelled at you and called you you know crazy you know I remember I once sold Darnell Mooney after his first year or something like that for kind of light you know a couple thirds or something and people were very upset like how do you give away a young you know stud receiver like that and the league kind of

admonished me and then all of a sudden he turned out to not be quite anything. He's actually not worth much. And, you know, I ended up, you know, turning those picks into value and going from there. So sometimes you just have to have the will to move off of a redundant asset on your team. You know, if you're starting a guy and he's scoring points for you, it doesn't mean you just have to sell to store value.

But when you're looking at your lineup, you're like, man, what am I doing with all these older receivers? I need to get off them sometimes packaging them. But no matter what the is to get there, you do want to try and store as much value as you can when you're storing value in the iron bank period in the story. Yeah. Okay. Chuck chapter six and seven talk about rookie pick values and rookie drafts.

And you kind of hit on one of the questions that i had like we are rapidly approaching if we haven't already gotten there to the point where it does seem like there's a pretty big shift in the in the opinion of rookie pick values amongst league members you're right they're starting to actually think about the fact that there's going to be a new draft new class of players coming in So talk a little bit about how you value rookie picks and then does your trade down principle only apply to startup drafts or do you do that in rookie drafts as well? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think with rookie picks and, you know, the values, you know, I want to give another shout out to one of my friends, Eric,

who put out a really cool, you know, rookie pick value chart. And, you know, in rookie pick values, they go on a cycle every year. It's the same cycle, right? So, you know, in season, right, they're not worth that much, right? You might have a league mate that's willing just to throw in a rookie pick or do a pick swap, you know, maybe it's a, you know, I'll send you my third, but you send me a second back and then, you know, I'll give you a player or, you know, whatnot. And then, you know, and as you kind of circle around you know end of the season right there's teams that are now trying to really go for it and go all in so they're gonna just start selling rookie picks right i want to i want to go for the ship so i'm gonna like throw in some some rookie

picks till i get there uh put me over the top and then and then they kind of you know they kind of start to accumulate value again right now. We're in February, so as we get closer. I think when the pick gets on the clock, that's when the value really peaks out. And to the extent you can really hold your picks until you're certain what the prospect rankings look like to you. Right now, what we're seeing often is the 106 is the cutoff in a lot of these 2024 drafts, especially in a super flex setting. Cause after that, maybe the elite tier kind of ends, which kind of brings me to the next point where you said, you know, there's a trading back philosophy also apply to rookie drafts. And I think, yes, it does.

And this is where, you know, having a tier based, you know, projection, you know, kind of based process and rankings is very helpful, right? Because then you can identify, you know, projection, you know, kind of based process and rankings is very helpful, right? Because then you can identify, you know, me dropping from, you know, this is a conversation from maybe the 104 to the 106 this year. Maybe that's a move I want to make, or maybe from the 105 to the, you know, 107, I think the move I want to make because, you know, there's a player like Roma Doonsday that I really like, and maybe he's going to probably fall to 107. And if I have 105, you know 107 i think i want to make because you know there's a player like roma doomsday that i really like and maybe he's gonna probably fall to 107 and you know if i have 105 you know i'll

take that bet and i'll take a little bit on top whether it's you know maybe another pick swap later on and and really trading back doesn't mean i have to gouge the other manager or take another pick uh you know like a plus pick but just a pick swap right where you know i give you a little bit here but then i'm gonna get a favorable move up you know somewhere else um but i would say kind of using that approach uh is very helpful and kind of having a an idea of like who are some of the targets right um in the rookie draft like in 2023 it was you know it was classic to kind of get back into the second round or move back into the second round from the late first, because, you know,

a lot of people were maybe steaming up, you know, someone like Don Kincaid and like the early or mid first, we were looking at Sam, yeah, looking at Sam Laporta in the second. So I was like, Hey, well, I like Sam Laporta just as much, if not a little bit better than Dalton Kincaid. I think they're both extremely great young tight ends. But hey, why not trade back to the second? Maybe I'll pick up another second on the process,

and then I'll also take Jaden Reed. So that's kind of what happened often with Jax and I as a common example of trading back in a rookie draft and what that can produce. I want to hit on that idea of rookie pick values and peaking this time of year or in a couple of months when the actual rookie draft happens, Scott, because considering like maximizing that pick value in a situation where you've got a true contender, are you trying to add a player while still adding a lesser pick? Or are you just not really interested in trading for players this time of year? I'm almost never trading picks right now. Like you would, I don't even know. You'd have to do

something. Let's just say during the rookie draft. During the draft. You're on the clock in April. Yeah, that's different. So then it's a matter of, yeah, that's a great time. Because now you're leveraging the height of the value of the pick. I always say last year, there's no more fun thing to do than to push the button for B. John Robinson. There's no more fun thing. It's so fun the button for Bijan Robinson. There's no more fun thing.

Like it's so fun to be on the clock and be like, bink, and you hear the thing and then you've got Bijan. You're like, yes. That's super fun. So because of that, it's super hard to trade away the pick that is Bijan Robinson. But if you did so, you would have won, right? Because Bijan could never have held the value that he held before he was an actual NFL player. He was destined to be a top 10, but not necessarily destined to be the number one running back in fantasy. And he didn't end up being the number one running back in

fantasy. Now he hasn't lost value, but he kind of did from that pick. So being able to sort of sell that pick, like right now, Caleb, you know, Caleb, people are sort of valuing him, that pick, some are valuing him at his ceiling, which is like top five, you know, dynasty quarterback. Well, yeah, I'll sell at that price because that's the ceiling. I mean, he might be that, and if I can get that type of value, then I've sold even, but if he's not that, then I've profited. So it's a tough thing to do because, of course, I want to press the button for him. One other thing I want to mention that Chalk was talking about, it's like understanding the tiers is absolutely huge because we did that. I was in the 110, 111 area in a bunch of drafts. And the pick that was Dalton Kincaid, I traded many a time.

I traded it for a future first and maybe a second or a third that year. And so I banked a future first and I sometimes picked up Laporta or I picked up Tank Dell or something like that. And so to have, you know, or Jaden Reed, those were the, or maybe Marvin Mims too. Sorry guys. But you know, but those are the types of players, those four guys were the types of players I was targeting there. And, you know, Mims misses. But even still, even if that Mims misses, I have a future first in tow for that Dalton Kincaid pick. And I remember, Heath, you will remember this too. We remember the class with Jalen Waddell and Devontae Smith and all those players.

And it was Michael Carter and Trey Sermon were the two running backs. And I remember picking, if I had like two early thirds or a late second, I would trade those two picks. I did it in a number of drafts to get just ahead of the Trey Sermon, Michael Carter picks. And I ended up with Jalen Waddell, Elijah Moore. Now Elijah Moore didn't exactly work out, but getting into that tier was a huge way to trade up.

So I thought there was value trading up there. So it's really just understanding the value of, or at least the perceived value of what those players are and using your capital to move around the board to maximize value in your rookie draft. Great stuff. Great stuff. Chuck, I want to make sure we have time to get into the anatomy of series here in just a second here. So I do have one more question for you and we'll just go to you on this one. Chapter 10, Bayesian inference. What do these words mean together and how does it apply to me having DJ Moore projected as a top five wide receiver two years ago and not last year? Yeah. So, you know, it's Bayesian inference, you know, be water, right? It's changing your opinions and takes about a player when you get new information every day we process so much content information on players that but we still

get stuck in take lock which is kind of mind-boggling right like we're hounded with new information and what we need to do with Bayesian inference is take this new information compare it to what we already know and create a new or modified opinion right right? The only wrong take that you're really going to have is not being open to change, right? So, you know, having DJ more, you know, top five for consecutive seasons, right. But he wasn't producing, right. So like for those seasons before, like maybe he wasn't producing those top fives, but now, you know, we're seeing maybe that, you know, he's starting to really, you know,

explode. So maybe we kind of go back into, you know, considering that. And, you know, real quick, I said I was going to talk about Brock Purdy, but I'm going to leave this as an example of Bayesian being water. The former Mr. Irrelevant, no draft capital, 49ers at Trey Lance, QB with high draft capital, all the hype in the world. And then Purdy came on the scene and produced at the high level at the end of last season. I mean, it wasn't a full sample size, it was enough many refuse to change their perspective doubling tripling down

on trey lance is the guy right and what do we know right we know that that was the wrong that was the wrong take so be flexible re-nuances don't be prideful in your takes and adjust great great stuff let's take one more short, and then we will get into the anatomy of. Okay, we are back, Scott. We've got about 15 minutes here. There ought to be plenty of time. Just kind of tell everybody what the anatomy of series is all about.

I know I saw the Twitter thread about the quarterback position just a couple weeks ago. So just kind of break that down for us. Yeah, it started, gosh, it's been like five years now or something like that. But I originally started it when there would be a lot of, what are they, spreadsheet, whatever you want to call it, these data guys that would put out R squared on like, they'd be like yards per route run or, you know, some sort of thing. And they'd be like, the R squared of this is that. And I found myself kind of understanding what they were talking about,

but I kind of knew for sure that most gamers were like, what's this geeky stuff. And what they were basically trying to figure out the, the data guys was, is there any signal to looking at, you know, this data point when evaluating, you know, a prospect? And I thought, well, that's kind of cool, but they're not saying it right. They're not talking to the people. I said, let me dumb it down. I'm good at that. So I basically said, Hey, look, this is a fun way to digest, you know, the sort of profile of elite players,

you know? And so I just took, you know, the top, profile of elite players, you know, and so I just took, you know, the top, whatever it was, the top 12 dynasty quarterbacks at the time, and I've done it every year since, or the top, you know, 15 or 16 dynasty running backs at the time, and I just sort of took characteristics they share, hey, what's the size of all these guys, you know, look at it and go, wow, they're all above 210 what a coincidence you know or whatever the case might be you know they all ran faster than 455 who knew that 15 of the 15 ran that fast so if you're looking at a guy ran a 47 probably not you know the guy potentially you know or at least so it's just a way to identify the sort of general profile of elite players at their position.

And then you can take that information and sort of apply it to the incoming class. The other thing that's been really fun, Heath, with it, and now we're starting to get fun, is we're actually watching how that profile changes. I know you're going to get there. And that's been, you know, a lot of people ask me, why didn't you just take the top five, a top 20, you know, players over the last five years and look at it that way. And I said, well, I'm not looking back. I'm trying to look forward with this, you know, so that was, that was sort of the impetus of, of what it is.

And I think people like interacting with it. It's fun. Well, I think this is kind of a good place to combine chalk. What we, the last two things we've talked about like yes there there is this these qualities that these guys all share but it's not necessarily going to be the same qualities five years from now or even two or three years from now right bingo yeah exactly and i and like jack's put out like you said jack's put out the quarterback thread just a couple weeks ago and uh you know what i did was i kind of quote tweeted him writing his coattails a bit and i i compared right like hey this is the the change

in the rushing yards right that we're seeing in the anatomy threshold right this is the change in efficiency metrics right and i started to kind of you know break down in terms of like okay what are we seeing now quarterbacks are a little bit smaller right they're more mobile right they're more active so we're starting to see a small change based off of the changing of the guard, right? So applying the same principles of Bayesian, taking that new information and then applying it to what Jax is doing, right? And I think it's a beautiful thing to be able to combine those two processes. So I do want to talk just a little bit about like how that profile has changed in

the last five years and i'll just kind of start by something that i seem to have noticed chuck you said quarterbacks are getting a little bit smaller scott it seems like like almost everybody's getting smaller right like these guys that have succeeded and it kind of started maybe maybe it kind of started with that waddle class but last year we saw tank dell like we are seeing guys and at and just a bunch of running backs coming in that were too small that are now averaging seven yards per carry somehow is it just like is that a universal truth that the the size requirements we used to have aren't are not as important yeah heath it's pretty interesting because you know i'm a i'm a little older you know not to not to spoil the the the surprise but you know, I'm a, I'm a little older, you know, not to, not to spoil the, the, the surprise, but, you know, so I've been playing a long time and for me,

you know, and I'm sure it's the same for you, Heath, when, when we're, you know, 10 years ago playing fantasy football, Tank Dell would have been off my board. I wouldn't have even considered Tank Dell because there's no way he can compete at the, on the outside. You need Michael Irvin, you need, you know, Andre Johnson, you need these outside guys that can play through contact. They allow contact down the field. Remember when they actually said, look, you can't touch him after five yards. That was like a new rule. They were literally able to just fist fight out there.

That has totally changed. So the game is changing. Now there's more three wide receiver or even four wide receiver or even five wide receiver sets. You know, more wide receivers are on the field. They're targeting the slot at a higher rate. The ADOT is coming down. They're actually targeting closer to the line of scrimmage. That doesn't seem to make sense, but that's what's happening. Passes are coming out quicker. Completion percentage is up. You can't hit the receivers. Otherwise you're targeting helmet to helmet out. So the smaller receivers benefit from that in every single way. And the anatomy led us to that.

And absolutely, I was all over Tank Dell. And my, you know, sort of who I am would have been out. But because we sort of said, hey, be Bayesian. Let's look at this data. Let's actually understand that, you know, that old thinking is changing. Led us to players like Tank Dell and Devontae Smith. You remember BMI Gate. You know, that old thinking is changing. Let us to players like Tank Dell and, and Devante Smith, you remember BMI gate, you know, we all had this thing. Can he, can he succeed?

And yeah, absolutely. He can, you know, Jordan Addison's another one. Zay Flowers is another one. There's a lot of these wide receivers that we were all hip to because of what, not just the anatomy, but what it sort of revealed to us. So yeah, absolutely. 1000% we're seeing. And I try Chuck to not necessarily apply this the opposite way, but it does feel like the wide receivers that we've fallen in love with and seen miss lately have been the types of guys that we

used to think were the only guys who could be number one wide receivers. And I don't want to bring up a keen Butler's name again, but we've done that a few times on this show. Those types of guys who have the body and look the part getting off the bus also seem to be the types that have been misses more lately. I wonder if that's because there are still certain general managers in the NFL that are valuing those things. Yeah, I mean, I think you hit it right. The prototypical X receiver the alpha x right i mean it's it's sadly a dying a dying art uh a dying uh archetype you know and um what we're seeing is like like jack said um and you kind of touched on is you know those unconventional uh divergent anatomies right players that aren't fitting the typical physical mold of a wide

receiver in terms of the height, weight, even BMI. The BMI truth is out there. Pour one out to you. But if you're undersized, but you're explosive and you're a playmaker, then that's what we're looking at. And I think there's some signal that we can pick up in terms of finding out who's explosive. And those are the players that might be returning kicks in college, maybe not in the pros, but in college. Rush yards, like if they're being schemed into the run game a bit, you know, they're manufacturing touches,

like the teams are manufacturing touches for these receivers. I think those are things that kind of signal, you know, a potential, you know, kind of unconventional elite receiver. But yeah, the three level threat the queen chess piece type receivers you know the alpha x's i mean you know seem to be a dying breed these days yeah it's funny uh heath if i may you know i i was looking at this recently especially because there's three prospects in this draft ad mitchell um uh brian thomas and uh who's the other one i'm forgetting but um regardless, and I look back, I'm like, who are these guys?

Are they T. Higgins, Michael Pittman, right? There's been some hits, right? Or are they, you said, Hakeem Butler, Nikhil Harry, Terrace Marshall? Because it seems like they go either one of two ways, right? They either sort of are hits or complete misses there's no sort of in between they and i think it's what chalk's even referencing and talking about it's like that if you're isolated to the outside and you really don't have any sort of special traits right you're probably not going to get the ball if you can move around or if you

have special traits a la aj brown is able to to to just catch a slant and kill you. That's a special trait. Michael Pittman is able to really win outside, but also move inside and run these intermediate routes. He's a target hog. So we've been looking at also one other thing is targets earned per route run, things like that, because that led us to Puka Nakua. We were pro Puka. We weren't exactly sure, but we got there with Puka. We really did. And so a lot of that was just sort of understanding that he was a target earner at the college level as well. Whereas Quentin Johnston, not quite as much. He was a sort of a big play guy, but he wasn't very special outside. So yeah, it's a tricky one, but I agree with you, man. It's such a puzzle. So I want to get, it's a tricky one, but I agree with you, man. It's, it's such a puzzle.

So I want to get back to quarterbacks for just a second, because I did see your tweet about, um, like what, what the current anatomy of a top 12 or top 15 quarterback looks like. What does that look like? And was there anything that you found this year that surprised you? Um, well, let me not really, um, actually have it on paper too so there you go i got i got myself dialed in you know um actually the thing that was interesting to me i felt like is like something that might actually disqualify a quarterback like uh completion percentage at the college level you know really is a kind of a scary stat when you see a guy like that. And, you know, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and Anthony Richardson were really the only three players that had that sort of scary stat. But then we look at them and they were just so otherworldly in other ways. So I think

sometimes we have to maybe squint a little bit at the quarterback position and lean into this sort of prolific, you know, athletic archetype as well. And that's a bit scary because, you know, that one's a coin flip. I mean, who knows when these guys actually – and look, they do have some issues. I mean, all three of them are not perfect throwers of the football, but in today's game, they're able to make up for it with their, you know, just unbelievable athleticism and gamesmanship. You can see here, if you're watching on YouTube, we did actually pull the tweet up.

You can see what the anatomy of a top 15 quarterback in Dynasty looks like, right? Yeah. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because you look at that stuff. I think that the other big thing, and John Lobb talks about it a lot, and I know Chalk loves this one, is actually the attempts or starts. We've seen Trey Lance, Mitch Trubisky, quite a few of these guys. Now another outlier in this is Anthony Richardson,

which made him scary as a prospect. I said it last year. I was like, man, this is the scariest prospect, yet he's my quarterback one in Dynasty because of the upside. But boy, oh boy, was I scared. I was a little bit more scared of Trey Lance just because he was – the thing about Trey Lance is he was not this amazing athlete. That's the thing that people forget.

People are always like, no, no, Konami. No, no, Anthony Richardson is a real athlete. He's a Lamar Jackson, Jalen Hurts-level athlete. Trey Lance was never that. So he had to win in the way that all the Brock Purdy's winning and he was unable to do so. But yeah, that college experience is huge. Look, a player that throws interceptions at a high rate in college usually does not change the stripes in the NFL as well. So yeah, those mistakes. I mean, Josh Allen was one of them and look, people criticize them for that last year.

So yeah, there you go. Awesome stuff. Awesome stuff. I did want just, we'll finish this up here and see if we can apply it at all to rookie drafts that are upcoming in the next couple of months. Is there anybody like when you, when you went through this process this year, any, any prospects that you got more excited about or more concerned about? Well, for me, it's Malik neighbors.

You know, you just look at Malik neighbors. He just looks like an absolutely prototypical stud in the NFL in today's game. You know, Marvin Harrison is a little bit more of a throwback player in terms of outside winner. Look, he's exceptional, exceptional out there. So I don't doubt that he's going to be successful in the NFL. But if you told me one of these guys is literally the wide receiver one in Dynasty in a year or a year and a half, I'd pick Malik Nabors over Marvin Harrison. I'm not saying he's a better overall prospect because I understand how great, like, you just can't convince me that Marvin Harrison isn't exceptional, but Malik Nabors is not to be

overlooked. That is awesome stuff. Again, thank you, Scott. Thank you, Chalk. Go follow these guys on Twitter at DinoGameTheory for Scott at 101Chalk for Chalk. Go check these guys out at The Undroppables. You can read all about

the art of Dynasty, all about the anatomy of and so much more. Go check them out wherever you can find podcasts. Appreciate everybody in the chat today and everybody listening wherever you can find podcasts. Appreciate everybody in the chat today and everybody listening. Wherever you can find podcasts,

we will talk to you next year.