Fantasy Football Today - Tight End Rankings! Look Out for ... Mike Gesicki!? (04/30 Fantasy Football Podcast)

Episode Date: April 30, 2020

Tight Ends weren't affected all that much by the NFL Draft, but perhaps Hayden Hurst and Darren Waller were. We answer some questions related to the draft to kick things off (2:15) ... Getting into the consensus rankings (13:13), who are #3-5 in the rankings? Is Waller in there? Is Tyler Higbee (21:41)? And then we move on to the next group (27:12) as Ben makes a case for Evan Engram as a Top 5 guy. How are we feeling about Austin Hooper? ... We discuss #9-12 in the consensus rankings (34:35) with Jared Cook and Jonnu Smith on the list. Then as we go farther down the rankings, it's time for a Mike Gesicki discussion (40:35). Why does he have breakout potential? And who else do we like to gamble on? ... Email us at [e-mail] 'Fantasy Football Today' is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Castbox, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. Follow the new FFT Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/FFToday Follow our FFT team on Twitter: @FFToday, @AdamAizer, @JameyEisenberg, @daverichard, @heathcummingssr, @YardsPerGretch, @BenSchragg Watch FFT on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCviK78rIWXhZdFzJ1Woi7Fg/videos Join our Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/FantasyFootballToday/ Sign up for the FFT newsletter https://www.cbssports.com/newsletter To hear more from the CBS Sports Podcast Network, visit https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Fantasy Football Today from CBS Sports. Here we go! Email us at fantasyfootballatcbsi.com. Here we go! It's time to dominate your fantasy league. Let's go! Now, here's some combination of Adam, Dave, Jamie, and Heath. Atlanta had six picks in the NFL draft.

It took four defensive players, an offensive lineman, and a punter. That's good news for Hayden Hurst, right? Meanwhile, Las Vegas picked three wide receivers in the first three rounds of the draft, if you include Lynn Bowden. Is that bad news for Darren Waller? Let's take a look at our tight end rankings and have some debates as we

get to our last position here in Rankings Week. And Friday is a mailbag, everybody, so get your questions in on Apple Podcasts or via email, fantasyfootball at cbsi.com. I wish I had, like, an acoustic piano version of The Heath Is On. Ba-na-na-na-na, ba-na-na-na-na. Because Heath's just like, he's just like the end of the day. I know you're hearing this on Thursday, but it's Wednesday night.

You seem exhausted. You're taking you're drinking. It seems like coffee. How are you? And you're in bed right now. You're literally in bed. It's not coffee. It's bone broth.

What? I yeah, I'm I'm pretty exhausted, but pretty fired up for a Thursday and Rankings Week. In honor of Rankings Week, I updated all of my Dynasty rankings position by position and just released them. And I have a top 150 out tomorrow. It's exciting times, man. I don't know what bone broth is, so I'm going to do a Twitter poll to find out how many people know what bone broth is. I'm going to guess 75% know, and know as in K-N-O-W, and 25% do not know. Do you know what bone broth is?

Hey, Dave, Richard, what's up? No bone broth here, guys. Yeah, bone broth. And Ben Gretsch, what's up? Not much. I'm excited to talk tight ends it's a position we kind of push aside but i like tight ends i like talking tight ends cut that please he likes tight ends and he cannot lie okay so let's talk tight ends who was your biggest mover in the tight end rankings after the NFL draft? I didn't have any huge movers.

I moved some guys down a little bit, up a little bit. Gronkowski obviously showed up on the rankings. Hayden Hurst and Higby went up a little bit for me. Waller, Blake Jarwin, Noah Fant all fell a little bit. Yeah, I think that's accurate. What was the bigger deal? The Falcons adding nobody or the Raiders adding Henry Ruggs, Lynn Bowden Jr., and Brian Edwards?

The Raiders. I would say the Raiders. I think it would make sense to move Hayden Hurst up if you had been expecting the Falcons to add someone. I pretty much projected their offense as it is. I think they're happy with the Julio Ridley, Russell Gage, Justin Gage, Russell Gage trio. Yeah, M-I-Z. And so I have him right where I had him. I think tied in eight or nine.

The Falcons thing is interesting, though. That looks like one of the most concentrated offenses in football. Maybe we haven't talked about it as much as we should have. But Gurley looks locked into the lead role. Julio and Calvin Ridley, which they weren't even just the two receivers for all of last year, obviously, because Sanu got traded midseason. And now you have Hayden Hurst taking over. And there was some talk immediately when he was acquired that, you know, can he fill the Austin Hooper role?

It looks like it's wide open for him to do that. Yes. I know this is the tight end thing, so this is real quick. Top of the show. It's not about tight ends but you said something ben that dave said earlier in the week and i didn't respond to it when dave said it because we were moving through things quickly i don't necessarily feel any more confident in todd gurley's percentage of the workload than i did before the draft like they don't really have

other good running backs but they still gave those other not-good running backs a high percentage of the touches. And most of the time over the last four or five years, they've split touches between two backs. I think that one of Ido Smith or Kadri Olsen or Brian Hill is probably getting 35%, 40% of the workload. Sure. It's possible, yeah.

We don't know which one it's going to be. We do know that all three of those guys are pretty average to below average. I wouldn't be surprised if the Falcons re-signed Devontae Freeman and said, all right, we couldn't find anybody. Come on back at a cheaper price and work here with Todd Gurley. But we don't think that because they didn't add anybody, Todd Gurley is going to get 300 touches again. No. And we don't know. The Falcons aren't even 100% sure at how healthy he is. They had to take the Rams word for his physical. They have not actually, this is, this is according to Thomas Dimitrov. He said it on a radio interview that they, they, they haven't

had him in their building. Obviously they've, they haven't had their doctors had the chance to examine them. They're going off of what the Rams say is that he's healthy and that he's as fine as he's going to get. They're obviously aware of the knee issue, but there there's no real financial commitment to Gurley here other than what they've, what they're going to get. They're obviously aware of the knee issue, but there's no real financial commitment to Gurley here other than what they're going to pay him for this year, I believe. So there's, look, I think that they might just be happy to get him on the field, run him as much as possible. If they've got a second guy, if they can cultivate one

from their backups or find one off the scrappy, I think they'd be happy to do it and use him with Gurley. But they're on a slippery slope here when it comes to Gurley because we know just how explosive he isn't. The only reason why he had the numbers that he had last year for fantasy is because of his touchdowns. And we can't say for sure that he's going to be better than he was last year.

You're counting on him. When I draft him, when I'm looking for him in my fantasy drafts now, I'm going to end up counting on him to be one of those 250-touch running backs. It doesn't feel good. I'm going to have to draft some running backs on other teams, though,

to have as a backup if or when Gurley fails. Okay, but I've been kicking around an idea, a theory. I want to know what you guys think of it. to have as a backup if or when Gurley fails. Okay, but I've been kicking around an idea, a theory. I want to know what you guys think of it. Instead of just looking at touches, I like to look at what I call high-value touches. Okay, so are these guys... Interesting, intriguing. Let's hear more.

No, that's Gretchen. No, but I think Todd Gurley, as Devante Freeman had done, Freeman dominated the high-value touches. He was not so much last year in the passing game, but when he was at his best, getting a lot of catches and getting a ton of red zone work, and hopefully it would continue. I mean, I feel like if their running backs combined for 12 rushing touchdowns, I would think Gurley would have 10 of them.

Just a guess. I agree. I would guess he would get the high value touches. Will he get involvement in the passing game? Jeez. He was so bad in the passing game last year in terms of yards per catch. I've moved

on from yards per carry. I'm now yards per catch. I can keep the license plate. YPC for life still works. Heath, thanks for derailing the show. Another tight end question. Do wide receiver additions in Philadelphia, San Francisco, and Baltimore. Baltimore drafting

Devin Duvernay in round three, James Prochet in round six. They affect Zach Ertz, George Kittle, Mark Andrews. Around six wide receivers could affect an elite tight end. They have one in round three. Forget about Prochet. But, you know, Philadelphia round one, San Francisco round one,

Baltimore round three. These affect any of the tight ends. No. Not enough to make me nervous about where they stand in our rankings now I'll just say it this way I had Waller before Ertz I've had Andrews before Ertz the whole time I had Waller before

Ertz before the draft and I have Ertz before Waller now so okay hey Ben don't get saucy with me over there just because I stole your idea. Because listen, I'm just giving you a preview of something. Monday, you're going to be on the show.

It's Mock Draft Monday. I am going to destroy your team. I absolutely hate the team you drafted yesterday, and I can't wait to tell you all about it. Wait, the team you drafted yesterday or the team you drafted Tuesday? The team you drafted Tuesday, which is currently yesterday, as we're recording Wednesday night. The team you drafted Tuesday, oh, man. I just, I'm going to unleash hell on you.

So you, you know what? You might as well be snippy with me because it's just going to get worse. It's funny because this is the, like, you know, I'm not going to try and act like I don't make draft mistakes, but this was probably the only major mistake that I think I have made in a mock that I immediately was like, whoops, that kind of kills my team. Because I took Kittle in the second round in this draft and then later took Evan Ingram as well. Ingram being the mistake.

I think Kittle's fine in the second round. I didn't even realize that. Your team had so much more bad on it that I didn't even realize the two tight ends set. Well, that's why the team is bad. Why? I would have taken a running back there. It would have been a big difference. He wasted a pick on a backup tight end.

Yeah, but what running back would you have taken there? Someone that you could have started? Well, you know what? That's for Monday. That's for Monday. Yeah, we'll talk about it Monday. Thanks for derailing the show, join our facebook group search fantasy football today on facebook or click the link in the description you should read the episode descriptions by the

way is this like the trap thing where you created a group that's a facebook group group and it's I said Facebook. Facebook group. Sorry. Yeah, read the episode description. We have important links there. We have time codes, things like that. And we just gave away a spot in the listeners league there, so you never know what you might see in the Facebook group.

And make sure you're watching CBS Sports HQ, noon Eastern, every day for the next few weeks. Fantasy football today. You get to see what we look like. Noon Eastern fantasy football today on CBS Sports HQ. How do you get it? Well, get your Roku, your Apple TV, your Amazon Fire, your connected device. Download the CBS Sports HQ app 24-7 streaming sports coverage. It's really awesome.

See what we look like and be Disappointed slash Mortified. No. I've got some breaking news. Oh, all right. What do we got? Mecole Hardman just tweeted a video of him working with the Footwork King. Oh, we're showing. And I'm moving him up in my rankings.

Okay, thank you. Why, just based on the video? Just because he's looking good in a video? And I'm moving him up in my rankings. Okay. Just based on the video, just because he's looking good in a video? Looking good in a video, Dave. That's all it takes. He does look a little bit stronger. I did notice that. I mean, I just realized that off-season video season is going to be so much more intense this year. Because there's nothing else, right?

Right. This is going to be... We're going to have to make adjustments to rankings based on videos all the time. I mean, there's a decent chance that Mikko Hardman gets as many targets as Sammy Watkins this year, right?

Yes. Decent, yeah. That's why I'm not drafting either one. That might be enough. To what? To fill a spot on your roster that makes you go why is this guy on my team dave when i've got a bye week i don't want to start jarvis freaking landry or julian edelman and get nine points i want the guy the two receivers you drafted and start sammy watkins

and get three points no that's why i'm this, because I was so irritated that I took those stupid wide receivers in that draft. Man, I hate myself. I agree, obviously, with the upside call. You want a guy who can score you a 75-yard touchdown. Let's do it. Or a big zero. By the way, let me just tell you really quickly about the best call

I've ever made in terms of fantasy or whatever. Look at the results of this Twitter poll so far. 75% yes, 25% no. Do you know what bone broth is? I nailed it. I'm always in the no. I'm always in the 25% group.

All right, so let's take a look at the consensus rankings. Nicole Hardman versus Jalen Rager. I'm in. Yeah, that's good. That's a good bet. I good. That's a good bet. I agree. It's a great bet. Sounds so riveting.

Okay, Travis Kelsey won. Let's start with a six-pack of beer. Could do that. Travis Kelsey won. George Kittle, two. Zach Ertz, three. Mark Andrews, four. Darren Waller 5

So where are we on I guess where are we on 3, 4, 5 It's going to be Kelsey Kittle 3, 4, 5 Should we just make this the show where we don't allow Adam to talk about tight ends Should we just mute him This is like our twitch from last night From Tuesday night

Andrews, Ertz, Waller And I can't imagine having it any other way. That's three different tiers. Yeah, I have it in a completely different way. I've got Earth's, Andrew's, Higby. Oh. You have Waller in the same tier as Earth's and Andrew's? No. No.

Especially after this draft, Ben. They just added a bunch of speed and targets to maybe it makes the coverage easier on Waller but there's no way he's getting the same amount of targets that he had last year is that what he said you couldn't disagree

with no he has he has Ertz ahead of Andrews and Waller not in his top five so he doesn't agree with me I was wondering what you were saying because I agree with Dave I and Waller not in his top five. So he doesn't agree with me. Yeah, well, I was wondering what you were saying because I agree with Dave. I have Waller at seven. He could be at seven.

He's in a tier with Hunter Henry, Evan Ingram. Those guys are indistinguishable. What I'm saying is Ertz and Andrews. Andrews is a tier above Ertz and Ertz is a tier above Waller for me. Okay, that's what you're saying. Yes. And I'm saying that Ertz and Ertz is the tier above Waller for me. Okay, that's what you're saying. Yes. And I'm saying that Ertz and Andrews are probably in the same

tier. I have them in the same tier as well. Let me just tell you something about Darren Waller. I mentioned this last week, but I've gone and I've actually done even more research here. A thousand yard tight ends the last ten seasons. Darren Waller had 1,145 yards. So he was over 1,000-yard tight ends the last 10 seasons. Darren Waller had 1,145 yards, so he was over 1,100.

But listen to these names. Last 10 seasons, who had 1,000 yards as a tight end? Jason Witten, Rob Gronkowski, Jimmy Graham, Jason Witten, Jimmy Graham, Rob Gronkowski, Greg Olson, Rob Gronkowski, Greg Olson, Delaney Walker, Gary Barnage, Travis Kelsey, Greg Olson, Rob Gronkowski greg olson rob gronkowski greg olson delaney walker gary barnage travis kelsey greg olson rob gronkowski travis kelsey george kittle travis kelsey zach ertz travis kelsey darren waller george kittle this is basically a hall of fame group except for delaney walker and gary barnage and you know darren waller's not going to the hall of fame barn Excuse me, Gary Barnage might make it. Those guys fell off the year after.

Their targets went way down, Delaney Walker and Gary Barnage. Now, it is worth noting they did not have as many yards as Darren Waller. They did not reach 1,100. But they were both, I think, like 31 and 32 at the time. Waller is in his prime. He's 27. I think he'll be 28. Wait.

Definitely in his prime. He's 27. I think it'll be 28. Let's definitely in his prime. He's, he's in his prime, but the similarities across all those names you read, you have historically great tight ends who did it pretty much throughout their entire careers from relatively early in their careers all throughout. And you have Delaney Walker who did that thousand yard season at 31 years old.

I just pulled these up. Gary Barnard, who did it at 30 and youyard season at 31 years old. I just pulled these up. Gary Barnage, who did it at 30. And you have Darren Waller, who took until he was 27 to finally do it. He's a lot more similar to those guys than historically great tight ends. But he's— Okay, obviously his career path has been very different. This was really his first chance. I'm just saying, it's very rare for a guy to

get 1100 yards it's incredible and i think the difference is like darren waller on 117 targets just averaged nearly it wasn't like he was just catching solely dump offs from derrick carr and falling down he averaged nearly 10 yards per, which is absolutely elite for a tight end and much better than we can expect from Zach Ertz. If they hadn't drafted so many people, and also we shouldn't be poo-pooing on Delaney Walker too much. He had four straight seasons of at least 800 yards receiving. If Darren Waller does what Delaney Walker did, that'd be fantastic. I think he's going to. Plus, he only had three touchdowns last year on 117 targets. That's be fantastic. I think he's going to. Plus, he only had three touchdowns last year.

I mean, on 117 targets, that's bad luck. Right. But when you look at the 117 targets, there's so many important caveats, and they all work in favor of pushing that target total up. Number one, they acquired Antonio Brown because they knew they were thin at receiver, and they also acquired Tyrell Williams, but they needed that number one. And he completely derailed their training camp and then was gone they didn't have an elite pass catcher or any real pass catcher they had the thinnest pass catching group in the league then number two tyrell williams gets hurt early in the season and and missed some time by

the end of the season when hunter renfro had come on a little bit who was a rookie last year and was basically their only other main target uh waller's target sure did drop a little bit except for some games that renfro got banged up later on but in week 17 and week 17 another 10 targets i think waller can still have 90 targets and be good but i don't like there's almost no way that 117 targets is what you should be banking on again for 2020 because it brought 100 100 100 agree with that i would just say outside of kelsey kittle andrews urts there's really no other tight end you could make an argument for getting 117 targets or probably even a hundred like there's i think waller henry ingram have an

argument for maybe getting 100 targets this year maybe hayden hurst gets it but like saying that he might only get 90 targets when he was more efficient last year than any of these like he was better per target than hunter henry or evan ingram or any of those guys so if he gets 90 targets he's still fifth i have seven because i think ingram there's a pretty easy case to make 100 targets for ingram and i have henry ahead of him maybe you're convincing me well i should be so ingram scares me because i think the giants want to run the football they've talked about being like a ground and pound team i don't think their defense is going to allow that to happen but you've got slayayton, Shepard, Ingram, Tate,

at least at the start of the season. Ingram and Shepard have... Barkley. Yeah, and Barkley, absolutely. I don't know if they're going to be a pass-heavy team. I don't think they want to be, but I think they might be forced to be. And the thing is, bringing in Antonio Brown is obviously a much different situation

than bringing in rookie wide receivers, because I've said it a million times this week, rookie wide receivers. Don't don't do that much. How many, what did Jamie say? Four times in the last five years, a rookie wide receivers had a hundred targets.

Do you want to know one of them who had 115, right? Comparable to what Darren Waller did last year in 15 games, Evan Ingram. And then he was hurt both of the last two years. No, I'm saying a rookie wide receiver. Oh,

sorry. I think it was only four in the last five years. No, I'm saying a rookie wide receiver. Oh, sorry. I think it was only four in the last five years or maybe ten years? Whatever it was. Had a hundred targets. One of them was Metcalf last year who had exactly a hundred. So that means in all likelihood Henry Ruggs is not going to have

a hundred targets and Brian Edwards is definitely not going to have a hundred targets. So, you know, all I'm saying is I don't know the impact they're going to have on Darren Waller. It wasn't a good draft for him, but he is in rare company, 1,100 yards for a tight end. He might just be a really, really good player,

and we never knew it because of his sort of crazy career path. Yeah, that's fair. He had some off-the-field stuff, right? Right, off-the-field stuff. I mean, it's not like he was just bad and kept getting cut. I think he just took advantage of the situation last year. They didn't have any other

good receiving option once Tyrell Williams got hurt. But Derek Carr's propensity is not to throw long. It's to throw short and mid-range. Here's a huge fast target for him to throw to, and he gets a lot of targets because there's really nobody else. And when they get in the red zone, defenses

were clamping down on him, and that's part of the reason why he only had three touchdowns. Now that you've got Ruggs, he's taking the top off the defense. You've got these other receivers that'll contribute. Don't forget about Lynn Bowden, who could be good for two or three targets per game. He's going to be a gadget player in this offense. People who have Josh Jacobs are going to be annoyed by Bowden and Jalen Rashard taking work away from him. So I'm imagining that we're going to see fewer targets for sure to Darren Waller. Maybe he makes up for some of that with touchdowns. But it wouldn't surprise me if he had 850 yards and five touchdowns.

That's totally fine for a tight end, but not one that's a top five tight end. So, Dave, let's talk about Higby, why you have him fifth ahead of Darren Waller. I think the Rams realized that he's their version of George Kittle. And I know that sounds silly, but big dude, faster than you think because of his size. He's open above his head every time because he's 6'6", and he's running 4'5", or 4'6". Are we still talking about Darren Waller? We could be, but Higby gets more involved.

He was very involved at the end, and he was still blocking a ton for the Rams during those games. And I don't think there's anything that's happened this offseason that's going to make the Rams rethink utilizing him in the passing game. First, let's do some pros and cons for Higby. Pro, first tight end in the Super Bowl era with four straight games with seven catches and 100 yards. That's big. Yeah.

Like Jimmy Graham never did that. Rob Gronkowski never did that. It was a wild run. And it wasn't like the rams were without other receivers in those games cup played robert woods played todd girley played yeah uh now con competition in those games was extremely easy arizona twice seattle was the second worst team against tight ends dallas was the eighth worst team or seventh worst team. San Francisco was sixth best technically, but they weren't very good against tight ends.

We know that. Khan, they drafted Van Jefferson? I think that that was a he's the best player on our board, let's take him pick. And if they do get out from Robert Woods after this year, then Jefferson could theoretically take some of that work. That was a curious pick. I'm not sure what their design is for having Van Jefferson. I will just say that my con would be Sean McVay does not care what has worked the past year or the past six games or the past four games he is

liable as the tyler higby four or five game stretch showed he he is liable to just completely change the way they distribute targets and do it for two months straight agreed with that and then changed to something else i think it was more necessity that's the big con i agree with heath it was more necessity they were struggling in so many other ways. Brandon Cooks was completely unproductive and they were relying on him. Their 11 personnel heavy offense that was so good in 2018 did not work in 2019. And we were all talking about how the Patriots figured them out in that Super Bowl after the 2018 season. And so they made that midseason shift. And I think it was definitely somewhat out of necessity that Higby started developing such a big role. The question is, like you've

just posed, will Sean McVay go back to the drawing board and come up with something completely different now? But why would he do that when this was working so well? And it's going to be hard for teams to take away Tyler Higby when there are so many other weapons in this offense. And this is also just like Waller was for Carr. This is another short area target for Jared Goff. And I think we know by now that Jared Goff just isn't that great of a quarterback. He's in a great system. He's got to get the ball out quick. Are you impressed with what the Rams offensive line looks like now? I'm not. So if he's got to get rid of the ball quick, he needs short area targets. Higby was catching screens multiple times per game last year. Was that out of necessity to try to get the ball out of golf stands quickly?

Yeah, maybe. But he was doing well with them. He's picking up yards after catch. He's easily getting yards after contact. The guy is a bull. But it could have been matchup as well. Could have been stuff they saw on film. But I think the answer to your your question why would they change it why would they change would be that the lesson that

that mcveigh absolutely should have learned last year and he absolutely seems like a guy always gets called that that favorite word cerebral he's the kind of guy that's looking for lessons the lesson he should have learned as a coach last year is i have to have a better backup plan i can't go into a season like he did in 2019, thinking everything in 2018 would carry over because when someone figures it out, I got to be able to switch to something. So that's got to be the lesson. And therefore what happened at the end of 2019, I think it's almost crazy to think that he would just want to go into 2020 with that and think no one's going to make an adjustment. Okay. So we know that he's adjusting his run game because the Rams have already told us that they cut Gurley. They draft

Cam Akers. They've got youth now running back. I'm sure they hope that their run game is better. That would be bad for everybody in the passing game, not just Higby, but everybody. If Cam Akers turns into Todd Gurley circa four years ago, it'd be great for everybody that drafts Cam Akers in fantasy, not so much for cup woods, big B Reynolds, Van Jefferson and golf. But this is a team, even though they've got some really great defensive players are,

I'm not sold on their defense being great. I think their offense is designed to put up a lot of points. I would like to have a guy that looks to me like a version, not the George Kittle, but a version of George Kittle in my fantasy lineup, especially if he's going to continue to get fed targets like he did toward the end of last year.

We just don't know if that's going to happen for sure. To 6-10. Again, top 5 is Kelsey, Kittle, Ertz, Andrews, Waller. 6-10. We know Waller's targets are going down. Henry, Higby, Ingram, Gronk, and Hooper. Henry, Higby, Ingram, Gronk, Hooper are six through ten.

Obviously, we know Dave is higher on Higby. We just discussed Higby plenty. So what about Henry at six, Ingram at eight, Gronkowski at nine, Hooper at 10? I don't love Henry with the quarterback change. I mean, I don't know that we can chalk everything up to Philip Rivers liking his tight ends, but the big difference is if you look at 16 game paces for Philip Rivers as a starter and Tyra Taylor as a starter in just in terms of sheer pass attempts you're talking at least a hundred pass attempts coming off the board now they're probably going to go to Justin Herbert relatively soon but then you have a rookie passer either way I don't think

it's very great for Henry and there's a lot of competition there so he's one that's you know not somebody I end up targeting I like Ingram more than the rest of that bunch if Ingram could stay healthy I would love him but there's just so much risk with Ingram more than the rest of that bunch. If Ingram could stay healthy, I would love him, but there's just so much risk with Ingram. We'll talk about that when we get to Ingram. Here's what I know about Henrik. He has 11 games with 70 or more yards out of 41.

So about 25% of the time he's getting you the 70 yards that you like to see. Touchdown every eight catches is pretty good. 70 yards? That's the barometer that I use to see. Touchdown every eight catches is pretty good. 70 yards? That's the barometer that I use, Adam. I don't know why. Almost no tight ends average 70 yards. No, I know that, which is why it's a touchdown needy position.

Yeah, so that's what we should be looking at. Can he score the touchdown? He's got a touchdown every eight catches over his career. And he's got 17 touchdowns in 41 games. Is what? 70 yards a game? You just had to point out that Darren Waller averaged 70 yards a game last year. Yeah.

Part of what made him great. I think Henry just hasn't really got enough targets. Does it bother you that half of his touchdowns came without Keenan Allen playing? And his one really big season was without Keenan Allen. Eight touchdowns with Keenan Allen out, 17 touchdowns in his career. I think it's a good point.

But he did average. It's not Darren Waller, but it's 54 yards per game and 4.6 catches per game last year and those were career highs it's not bad yes and he was on pace for seven touchdowns he was on pace for 869 yards and seven touchdowns hunter henry so you said you'd take ingram over him dave i would not i would take henry over but ben what did you say about ingram i said i would take Henry over Ingram. But Ben, what did you say about Ingram? I said I would take Ingram over him. I know Ingram's an injury risk, and that's fair. But he leads that tier for me because, and I have him at five after the Ertz and Andrews tier,

because I think there's difference-making upside if healthy. And he had a ton of targets to start last year, and I know they had injuries and they had gold-date suspension. But he's a wide receiver. I mean, he's a 4-4 speed athletic wide receiver and again had 150 targets in his only real healthy season as a rookie if he's hurt you can you can plug and play another tight end but of this group like I'm kind of down on Waller I'm kind of down on Henry I see some issues with Higby I kind of see some of Dave's upside hope for him but he's a you know a boom bust risk for me I think he could be a nothing relatively easily if they change the offense a ton.

But Ingram's the one that I look at and go, this guy could put up wide receiver numbers pretty easily. I know Dave loves the upside of Darius Slayton, and I think it is so difficult to find enough targets on the giants team. You've got shepherd Tate Slayton Ingram, Saquon Barkley. They're probably not going to combine for like, they might,

we might get lucky and they might combine for like 85% of the team's targets, but there's going to be 10 to 15% that goes somewhere else for sure. Like, who do you guys think is just going, do you think golden Tate's just going to disappear? No, I think Evan Ingram or Sterling Shepard are going to disappear because

they're going to get hurt. I, I mean, I'm a little concerned about Barkley to be, to be honest with the catches. No, I'm not. I'm not concerned.

I just think it's possible he could have a 60 catch season. Not an 80 catch season or something. So nobody's probably getting to 120 targets in the offense. Is that what the everybody just right around 100 to 110? I think there's one guy that's got a chance

to think it's Ingram provided he plays 14 or 15 games. Oh, you think he'll lead the team in targets? I mean, it's one guy that's got a chance, I think it's Ingram, provided he plays 14 or 15 games. Oh, you think he'll lead the team in targets? I think he's the best player. I mean, it's all contingent on his health, you guys. And that's the risk you're taking with him. And there's going to come a point in your draft where you're going to feel a lot better about taking him. This is the best weapon of those guys.

Is Sterling Shepard, I mean, and Golden Tate at this point in his career at 32 or whatever he is. I mean, are those guys is Sterling Shepard. I mean, and Golden Tate at this point in his career at 32 or whatever he is. I mean, are those guys like difference makers? I mean, Ingram is a legitimate matchup nightmare, but Slayton's the only one. I think that's the real deep threat. And Daniel Jones is going to,

is more likely to wing it much more likely than Eli Manning was. He likes to throw the ball downfield, but Slayton's also the kind of guy that can, that would lead in yards per catch. So you don't need the targets. Did you know that almost one third, Slayton's also the kind of guy that would lead in yards per catch, so you don't need the targets. Did you know that almost one-third, almost exactly one-third of Evan Ingram's targets came from Eli Manning last year?

Well, but here's the thing. Weeks one and two, he had 22 targets. There were only two games he started, right? Yeah, until Eli Manning started four games. He started weeks one and two, and then he started weeks 14 and 15, as I recall. Definitely weeks one and two. Now, not only did Eli Manning started four games. He started weeks one and two, and then he started weeks 14 and 15, as I recall. Definitely weeks one and two. Now, not only did Eli Manning play those games,

Darius Slayton didn't play, and Golden Tate didn't play weeks one and two. So keep that in mind. That's why I'm just nervous about Evan Ingram, because we don't know how the targets are going to shake out. And I get the upside, but to take him as the fifth tight end is like passing up. Again, had 115 targets when Odell Beckham was on the team.

I mean, I think Beckham got hurt that year as well, though, actually. He did. He played four games, I think. the fifth tight end is like passing up 115 targets when odo beckham was on the team i mean i think beckham got hurt that year as well though actually he did play four games i think immediately contradict myself here this just needs to be said about ingram since the start of 2017 two concussions that we know about an mcl injury a hamstring injury and foot surgery if he's your if i don't have a problem drafting evan ingram because i think you can find another tight end late in the draft or off your waiver wire that you can use as a starter you can always stream the position i'm i'm worried about spending too much draft capital on him fearing that he's a little bit more bust than boom yeah i don't draft him as a fifth head i don't

know if the board ever so i agree with that and this feels like jordan reed to me who i chased for years and same thing happened so dave's right yeah and and that's what i i would hate it if he became the next jordan reed you know we want to see these guys play. We want to see them put up great numbers. Yes, we do. Okay, so why don't we go 9 through 12 then instead of 5 at a time? Because 6 through 8 was Henry, Higby, Ingram's consensus rankings, PPR. Yeah, right. Is there anybody who is Gronk in anybody's top 8?

Is Austin Hooper in anybody's top 8? Kisicki's in mine over Higby. Okay. But outside of that, we basically have similar top eight. Gusecki? I can't wait till we get to Gusecki. Hold on. Let's do 9

through 12 in the PPR consensus rankings. Gusecki's down at 16. It's got to be Kosicki if Ben's got a man. No, because I don't think – Ben, your rankings aren't in this, or are they? I don't think they're in the consensus. Well, this should be the consensus of me, but audible.

Kosicki's now 11th. Okay. All right, fine. Gronkowski – no, not fine. Don't listen to Heath. Gronkowski, Hooper, Hayden Hurst, and Noah Fant are 9 through 12. Gronk, Hooper, Hurst, and Fant. All right, let's talk about these guys.

I'm really worried about Austin Hooper, like a lot. When he had his first really good season with Atlanta, there was quite a bit of, yeah, but it was almost like a little bit of a Jack Doyle start away. It's almost kind of the way you guys were talking about Darren Waller, except that's not who Darren Waller is because he's actually elite. And then last year, he was actually legitimately good when he wasn't hurt. I'm just not sold that he is a really difference maker at tight end, and I'm not sold that there's really a ton of targets available for him in Cleveland.

I do think they'll run a lot of two tight end sets, because that's what Kevin Stefanski did in Minnesota, but two tight end sets are probably going to lead to a higher rush attempt volume than you would like for the number three option in the passing game. And I still think a ton of passes are going the way of Kareem Hunt. If Beckham and Landry and Hunt and Chubb are all healthy, I'm not sure that Hooper gets to more than like 80 targets. And that's probably like 600 yards for him. Yeah, I completely agree.

Not that he's ever been a huge yards guy to begin with. No, I mean, maybe last year on a per game basis, he was right. 60 yards per game last year. It's pretty good for a tight end. But before that, his career, nine yards per game was 41. I think he's, I think he's in Cleveland. I've said this before. I think he's there to help them win in the red zone. Baker Mayfield's total touchdown throws since he's been in the NFL, a third have gone to tight ends. They thought Njoku would be that guy. He's been Njoku. that number one guy who has caught 10 touchdowns in his last 29 games.

It's not bad. I think they can use him for that. It wouldn't surprise me if he had a touchdown every other game in Cleveland, but that's, that's kind of what you're banking on when you draft him, because I don't see the targets being huge and I don't see him averaging 60 yards per game like he did in Atlanta. And he's never been particularly effective in the red zone.

All the things that Dave just said about Austin Hooper is how I feel about Jared Cook. Nobody seems to like Jared Cook, but I could definitely see him getting eight touchdowns and being a touchdown-dependent tight end. That's what he did last year. Yeah. That's what most of these guys are. That's the position outside last year. Yeah. It's not like... That's what most of these guys are.

That's the position outside of the elite guys. Yeah. Hurst and Gronk, I think, for however long Gronk plays, I think Hurst and Gronk both have the ability at this point in the rankings to still be more than that. And? Fant does too. And? a fan does as well i don't know if it does or not i don't either you don't know if it does i mean he's a year too tight end who was a first why are we talking about

no a fan are we just gonna skip over mike gosicki at number like there it is i'm going off the spreadsheet i have in front of me and the group we were talking about was gronk hooper hearst and fans we don't know what fans upside is yet so how do you guys rank them gronk hooper hearst fan all behind gaseki i go hearst gronk hooper and then i have fan behind hawkinson godddard, Blake Jarwin. I've moved Fant way down. I'm very concerned about the overall passing volume and the weapons. It's not just Judy. KJ Hamler was a really underrated prospect and is going to be a good slot guy

and is going to compete for those short area targets. Fant, a lot of what he just said about Hooper, about his target ceiling, I completely agree with. And Hooper's not a dynamic player. He's totally right on that. He's a 4'7", 240 guy, not a great athlete at the position Fant is. But I just don't see how Fant gets even 80 targets, really, in this offense. Fant has to be a great player to be a great fantasy option. He can't.

It doesn't look like he can just target his way into greatness. But when you look at all these players, it's kind of like your Evan Ingram argument. Does anybody have the skill of Noah Fant? I don't think Johnnie Smith does. I don't think at this point Jared Cook does. Jack Doyle definitely does not. I don't think Mike Kosicki does.

Mike Kosicki does. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. That's kind of the hope I have for Fant. I'm kind of content to take him with, you know, one of my last picks as my starting tight end. But I'm content to take a lot of these guys with that same last pick. So, Dave, how would you rank them?

Gronk, Hooper, Hurst, Fant? As of now, I have Hooper ahead of Gronk. It's based on Gronk being, I think Hooper and Gronk might be the same person where both of them are just red zone freaks, but Gronk's the one that I'm concerned about the injuries more than anything else. I'm not worried about the size. I think he'll bulk up and be fine. Also, Gronk is sharing the field with Godwin and Evans. That's not going to be, I don't know how that's going to positively impact his targets. Hurst has made it into my top 12. He's 11th for me, and Fant is right behind him at 12. So Hooper, Gronk, Hurst, Fant. Okay, next group, 13 through 16.

Jonu Smith, Jared Cook, Jack Doyle, and Mike Kosicki! There he is. There he is. Jonu Smith, Jared Cook, Jack Doyle, Mike Kosicki. Okay, Ben, go for it. All right, Mike Kosicki. Second round pick out of Penn State two years ago. We know tight ends take a little while to hit.

He was very inefficient last year. And Heath will talk about this with all the guys I love, like A.J. Brown and everything, that they have to come back to earth. Well, Kosicki can't really be as inefficient as he was last year. Maybe he's terrible, but I don't necessarily buy that that they also don't line him up a tight end ton they split him out wide as much as any tight end in the league i think it's the highest rate uh he's 6 6 247 you're gonna 454 40 just going off player profilers numbers 96th percentile uh 40 time for tight end 95th percentile speed score because he's a big titan 99th percentile

burst score 99th percentile agility score 100th percentile catch radius he has huge arms big hands big target 97th percentile spark athlete was a good producer in college again former second round pick now let's talk about opportunity he was fourth in the among all tight ends last year in air yards after week uh six because he didn't really start the season very hot he led the position in air yards he was massively inefficient on the volume he got yes and they're gonna have preston williams back but they used him as much as any tight end last year all he has to be is a little better we're talking about difference makers of the position. They're throwing him down the field. He's what he's not going to get 117 targets like Darren Waller, but he's what he's been saying. Darren Waller is,

he's a great athlete. This is the next George Kittle. If he's at all efficient. I have a question. Follow up question. Do you have the list of the leaders in air yards among tight ends? Yeah. Okay. What is it? I have it from week six on right in front of me. Give me. I'll just do my rebuttal and then he can. I got it.

Is that okay, Adam? Nope. He's got it. Kelsey, Ertz, Andrews, Gasicki, Waller, Hunter Henry, Greg Olson, George Kittle. That's the top of the air yards last year. That's pretty good. Seems like a pretty good list to be on. Pretty good. Yeah. That's the top of the air yards last year. That's a pretty good company. Seems like a pretty good list to be on. That's pretty good.

Yeah, that's like the Darren Waller list. Except for the fact that he's catching 57% of the balls thrown at him. Mike Gasicki and Curtis Samuel are going to start in air yards also. What's your rebuttal? Ben is right that he was very inefficient last year at 6.4 yards per target. And generally speaking, you would think that most players can't be worse than that. He actually was worse than that his rookie year when he averaged 6.3 yards per target. I just worry that the way they used him last year, and he was really bad at it,

and then they brought in a new offensive coordinator, and his name's Chan Gailey, and he has been an offensive coordinator or a head coach 14 years in the NFL. And one of those 14 years, he had a tight end on his roster that saw more than 75 targets. But he doesn't play tight end. Do you know who that tight end was? Tony Gonzalez. Yeah, so he basically had to get the target. But also, he was a nothing when Preston Williams was healthy. I just want to mention that.

I mean, everything he did was after the Preston Williams injury. This comes down to whether or not the Dolphins view Gasicki as their version of Darren Waller, where, okay, he's not really a tight end. He's a wide receiver, but we're going to use him to make plays. And then he's got to go out there and make them. He can't make mistakes. He can't be, he can't make mistakes. He can't drop passes.

He can't, you know, be inefficient because if that happens, they're going to, Changeli is going to lose faith in him and then he's going to get one target per game. Now taking him with a late pick, there's, there's next to no risk. I don't mind having Gacicchi, even in my starting spot to begin the year. Awesome type of tight end to begin the season with as a streaming option. If he hits, you're golden. If he misses, so what?

You cut him. Exactly right. I don't think he's going to be amazing. But if he's your eighth-ranked tight end, Ben. I don't draft him eighth. Oh, Hayden Hurst? I have Hayden Hurst. Right, like he's at draft him, but I hate and Hurst. I have Hayden. At the very, very least,

Hayden Hurst is in the same boat as Kosicki in that you're going to wait till the later rounds to take your chance on him. But I would much rather take the chance on the Austin Hooper replacement and a guy who might be a little faster than Austin Hooper than Mike Kosicki.

But Kosicki is a much better athlete than Hurst. That's for sure. He's an elite athlete. It's a total upside pick. I want to be clear. I don't think Kosicki is a star and he might just not be good. I mean, he's made a good point that he also wasn't efficient as a rookie. Like he just might not be good, but this is where I get into always wanting to draft for upside. I think he could be, like I said, the next George Kittle. It's exuberance for sure. He might be nothing. But I take that shot. I love to take that shot.

If you see him in round nine, are you drafting? No. I'm talking to Ben Gasicki. But he doesn't have to. I typically don't. Yeah. Round 11, is that when you're looking down the barrel and saying, I got to have Gasicki?

I mean, i can get him in so nobody takes like literally nobody takes him you can be your last pick i don't need to get him in every single league so i i get him even later than that when i get him and i've probably taken him in half our drafts though and and again it's it's a total upside play that the air yards stick that the volume and explosiveness can all translate. And if it doesn't, there are other options you can transition to. Yeah, one thing I'll agree with Ben on is it's really good when you're doing these drafts in April and May

to have somebody on your bench when you want to make that waiver wire move before the season starts that you're just comfortable letting go. Is that a good thing? You make a good point. I will will see i don't know if the coordinator change and the eventual quarterback change will help maybe maybe it will help maybe so he only played tight end 159 snaps last year 461 the slot 159 at traditional tight end he's not a tight end i'm going to google chan gailey mike gasecki scott chandler and set an alert for when chan gailey think says i think he could be our scott chandler

okay who's after that guys i won't go through all the names but you know we didn't talk about johnny smith or jared cook Make your case for your favorite late round tight ends. I guess Jared Cook would be that for me. Not that I'm excited about it. He's just someone that I've seen connect with Drew Brees for several 20 plus yard gains and touchdowns. And so if I've got the season with a tight end like that, I'm going to be okay with it. Yeah, I like that, I'm going to be okay with it. Yeah, I like Jonu, but I can't make near as impassioned a case for him

as Ben did for Gasicki, and I might even move Gasicki ahead of Jonu. I have not found myself in the position where I've gotten to the end of a draft and didn't have a tight end, and Hayden Hurst wasn't available. So if, if you feel like Hayden Hurst is the best tight end or has the most upside after all the big name top 80 pick tight ends go, that's fine. It's okay.

That's great. But if you, if you decide to wait on tight end and you're passing Hunter Henry and Austin Hooper and Gronk and someone else takes Hayden Hurst, you know the names now who are going to be left. It's Fant, Gasicki, Cook, Johnnie Smith, Jack Doyle. You can throw Hawkinson in there. You can throw Jay Sternberger in there. If that list makes you sick, you need to spend one of your first seven or eight picks on a tight end. I don't necessarily think that that should

make anyone sick. I mean, I think it just depends on the person. Some people look at those guys and they go, I don't want to stream. I don't want to take that chance. I'd rather go get one of these other tight ends that has more credibility, maybe is the best way to put it.

Real missed opportunity to not say makes you gosicki okay anything else guys are we good we're good not even a mention of eric ebron or dallas goddard i'm not even a mention of gregory Oh, goodness, no. TJ Hawkinson. Yeah, he could be good. Jack Doyle. He could be good. I'm interested in Jack Doyle. Doyle could be better. Doyle might be that guy.

I think Tyron's deep. Round 12, I need somebody. I'll take the guy catching passes from Phillip Rivers. You know what? I agree with you, Ben Gretch. And because of that astute observation, this year the Listener's League for the people is going to be a two-tied-in league.

Jeez, that's ridiculous. And it's not. I thought that tight end was deep, but I thought free agency was really, really bad for tight ends because the Chargers lost Phillip Rivers. That couldn't have been good for hunter henry um so austin hooper his situation got worse uh no offense bank account his bank account got a lot no offense situation has gotten worse jared cook has to deal with

emmanuel sanders now um what else was i bummed about ian? Ian Thomas is no longer a sleeper basically. The most talented tight end in the league isn't even a starter anymore. OJ Howard is not a starter anymore. You're absolutely right. So thanks for listening everyone. Oh you know what? Screw that.

I want to read a few emails here. Let's do some emails quickly to end the show and we got a lot more of them coming on Friday. From Bobby. Last night i was awarded the number five slot in our startup startup dynasty draft super flex and tight end premium 12 teams i want to move up to number one overall my initial offer is my first and my eighth pick for 101 and a first round pick in 2021 so i guess five and 1.5 1.08 for the first pick and a first round pick in 2021 no this is a startup so oh okay i'm sorry as eighth round first and eighth for a first and a rookie first rookie first next year so just for reference a first round pick in the 2021 rookie draft typically has a startup

value about late seventh or eighth. So he's basically trying to turn his eighth round pick into a first round 2021, which would be equivalent, and then also move up to 101 from 105. So if someone takes that, that's very good for you, Bobby. I agree. Someone would be a fool to accept that deal. From Nick, which young Philly wide receiver has more upside, Jalen Rager or JJ Ortega Whiteside?

Do I have to answer this? Because you know what I'm going to say. You're going to say Ragar, which is my favorite. I'm really not sure. I'm raging for Rager. I think it's Mike Kosecki. No, it's Rager. Greg Ward.

Yeah, I noticed that Ben Gretsch just said Jalen Rager's last name. It rhymed with Schrager. He said Rager. Like Gretsch and Katsch and Rager and Rager. Just noticed that.

Okay, thanks, Ben. This is from Truffle Shuffle. Dear doctor, doctor, doctor, and doctor. Doctor. What is that, Dave? Doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor. Spies like us? Yes.

I don't know what spies like us is. I believe there was a moment in brain donors where we're flack pfizer and the gang were calling each other doctor doctor just want to assure you what have you heard how ben says your last name no it rhymes with passer. Heath is laying down, is in his bed on his iPhone. He's just like checked out. Last email. 12-team Superflex tight end premium league. I think Heath should do the outro for the podcast.

I have been offered a huge picks package for Deshaun Watson and Ezekiel Elliott. I still have Ryan and Lockett quarterback, but I'm a little weaker at running back. I have Kareem Hunt. I have Harris, Penny, Duke Johnson. His running backs kind of stink. Kind of? But if he gives up Deshaun Watson and Ezekiel Elliott in a super flex tight end premium league, he would get picks 1.6, 1.7, 1.10, and 1.11 in 2020,

plus Dwayne Haskins and a first round pick in 2021. 6, 7, 10, 11, Dwayne Haskins and a 2020 first. Five firsts. I would think Elliott's worth at least two to three firsts, depending on how high you are on him. I'm kind of not as far as his long-term value. Watson in a super flex league would also be worth multiple firsts. So it's a huge package.

I think given the roster that he has, I kind of probably would take the picks even though i mean none of them being higher than 1.6 is a little tough not getting one of those yeah not getting one of those top two running backs or one of those top two quarterbacks and super flex are probably all going to be gone by 1.6 yeah but but look you're going to get duty or lamb or right or yeah you might get DeAndre Swift. Maybe you could get Akers, and you could still get two good receivers, but I don't know.

You could get Burrow to replace Watson. You probably can't get Burrow, though, in a Superflex. Not Superflex. Oh, that's true. Do it or no. Deal or no deal? I would do it because I have rookie derangement syndrome.

I think your team's probably going to be bad in 2020 either way. So this way at least you have an excuse and you can say you're rebuilding. Do the deal. Okay Heath take us home. Hey thanks for listening to Rankings Week. We'll be back next week.

We also have a show on Friday. It's a mailbag. You failed your audition. Thanks for listening, everyone. Have a great night, day, whatever, whenever you're listening. Talk to you Friday.