Fantasy Footballers - Fantasy Football Podcast - Ice & Fire Picks + Listener League, Little Giants - Fantasy Football Podcast for 8/2

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

Players to target or avoid in fantasy football drafts! On today’s fantasy football podcast, Andy, Mike, and Jason each pick an Ice & Fire player for 2023. Plus, the big listener league entry announcement and the latest NFL News! Manage your redraft, keeper, and dynasty fantasy football teams with the #1 fantasy football podcast. -- Fantasy Football Podcast for August 2nd, 2023. Dive into the 2023 Ultimate Draft Kit + Draft Analyzer! UltimateDraftKit.com Connect with the show: Subscribe on YouTube Visit us on the Web Support the Show Follow on Twitter Follow on Instagram Join our Discord Check out today's sponsors: News & Notes presented by USAA. Visit https://USAA.com/Insurance Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Conditions apply. Scotiabank. You're richer than you think. Hey, foot clan. The NFL season is here five days a week. We're here with you. Check out the ultimate draft kit.

Prepare for your drafts. We've got it all ready for you at ultimatedraftkit.com. Welcome to the Fantasy Footballers Podcast with your hosts, Andy Holloway, Jason Moore, and Mike Wright. Oh, welcome in. The Fantasy Footballers Podcast, Mike Wright, Jason Moore. I'm Andy Holloway. We welcome you in Wednesday, August 2nd.

We begin the journey towards a fantasy football championship. We'll be alongside you all season long, every single day. If you're into Dynasty, we've even got an extra episode. Oh, that's great. I am into Dynasty. Yeah. Yeah. Then do I have news for you, Jason.

What? You may be interested in something we're providing. Okay. Which also comes out today, right? Yes. So Wednesday's a double dose of the Fantasy Footballers. We've got the main show. We've got the Dynasty show we got the dynasty show i believe mike was on there with borgen bets yep we were talking all about quarterbacks i've heard

of them yeah that sounds like a good discussion um today we have ice and fire one of our favorite episodes of the year we got news to talk about we so much going on. I just can't wait for the drop. I mean, that's all I'm here for is just when we get into that segment. But we do have something maybe a little bit more important than that drop. Oh, I didn't even see this. Why don't you go ahead and take the mantle? This is the time. I mean, we are here.

We are in August. Training camps are open, and Listener League entries are now officially open. So you have one week only to submit your Listener League entries, and here's how you do it. You make whatever fun thing you want to represent yourself to say, I should be in the league. Put me in that league.

And you're going to email that fun thing to listenerleague at fantasyfootballers.com. I said it once, and I'll say it one more time. That's going to be twice. Listenerleague at fantasyfootballers.com. We are accepting entries for one week, and maybe we'll play in a league together this year. And, Mike, you know, we don't need the resume, right? That is correct.

Look, we want to play with fun people. We're going to be chatting and yucking it up all season long. So we want people. It's a good time. This show, hopefully you realize that fantasy football is about we all want to win, but we also want to have a good time throughout the NFL

season. So what do you do to get in the Listener League? Just something that we know that you're a fan of the show. I think that's the big one there. And that you're going to have a good time with us. We don't want don't just, you know, you're too scared to let me in the league.

No, we aren't too scared, but you're not going to get in that way and don't send us a wall of text. Yeah, if you love fantasy football and you love the podcast, I think Brooks, you put that well. Brooks should know it. Brooks was in the Listener League. We met Brooks from the Listener League. He's part of this show now.

The biggest loser, Brian Ketron, Listener League. That one Brooks from the Listener League. He's part of this show now. The biggest loser, Brian Ketron. Listener League. That one was an unfortunate. Oh, it sucks. I'm so unhappy to have made his acquaintance and become close friends. But, yeah, I mean, we take the league serious. You just said you were close friends with Brian. I know.

He's going to lose his mind. But it's true. You're going to have donuts showing up at the office in 15 minutes. But, yeah, that's a big announcement. I didn't realize that was dropping on today's show, but it makes sense. One week. One week, people. One week.

And don't endanger yourself because somebody reached out to me and let me know that this year's entry, like they almost drowned or something. Going through a river. Stay safe out there. So, no, I don't think we need you to, like, is it fjording a river? What is that? Fjording is when you take the raft. Yeah, don't do that.

Fjording is just when you walk through it with the oxen, and the oxen just, they disappear. Yeah, no Oregon Trail stuff. Like, we don't need that, but stay safe. And then last one. Don't ask us on... Oh, it's fording a river. Fjords are those things down in New Zealand or something.

Yeah, Norway and stuff. Last bit of information. Don't ask us on social media for where you send your entry. We already said it twice. These are the rules. Yeah, I almost repeated it, but I'm not going to. No, we will not say it again. We're not saying ListenerLeagueAtFantasyFootballers.com ever again.

Okay, there it is. Jason. Quick question of the day. If I said it twice, I'll say it thrice. This quick question comes in from Dr. Kool-Aid. He says, How do I get my commissioners to get the ball rolling on leagues earlier without being too annoying?

So that would be things like setting the draft order, which I did for our family league this morning, or setting the date for the draft, which I did for our family league this morning. How do you get them to do it sooner? I genuinely think that the best way is to offer your services to do it for them. I don't think that the commissioner of your league is like, I refuse to think about this until August 15th. People are busy.

So, you know, a lot of leagues that we are in have co-commissioners. Every platform now will allow you to have multiple people with administrative access. And I think it's really nice when someone else can step up and say, Hey, I was thinking about getting the ball rolling on this. Do you want some help? Do you want me to,

you know, help set the draft order and stuff like that. And then it makes, yeah, it makes sense that you're in this position where you're very excited because you're listening to the show right now. And you've probably listened for a while and we go year round. So you've been excited.

You've wanted the league and the draft order to happen. I will say this, setting the draft order, cool. If you want to have it happen early, you want to get the league going, you want to start chatting, that's great. Don't, and we're getting to the news in a minute, so you'll understand this even more. Don't push for your draft to be too soon just because you're excited because we we're always trying to push our draft as far back as possible um our we're on labor day for our league of record which is september 4th i'm trying to sync it up with kickoff like right yeah like the final pick yeah and then the final pick is in you have 30 seconds to set your life oh that's true yeah

but it's just look the injuries they they stink regardless but they stink a whole lot more when you already got the players on the roster so we've had drafts where we didn't have a choice obviously it was the time people could get together and we've had injuries happen literally mid-draft before because preseason games were taking place so uh it's good to avoid that if you can. Let's jump into the news. News and notes from around the league. Presented by USAA Insurance.

Well, there's some stuff going on. Let's start with the headline here. Cooper Cup left practice yesterday dealing with a – was that a horse, Jason? It wasn't meant to be It was a sad horse He left practice hamstring injury underwent an MRI the team's going to be cautious

it's going to take weeks kind of sounded similar to the Burrow situation where you're probably not going to see anymore Cooper Cup you know this data is interesting. I'm not saying it's prescriptive for Cooper in this situation for sure, but Matthew Betts, our injury expert, talked about the fact that in his data set over the last two years,

60% of players who dealt with camp injuries failed to meet their ADP. Pretty hard to meet your ADP when you're being drafted in the top five anyway. You add to that an injury-laden season last year, going into the season with a hamstring. You know, Cooper Cup is a special type of player and athlete. We've seen him return from an ACL when people didn't expect him to produce, and he did. But I'm not excited to see this news.

Our risk ratings in the UDK are going to rise on Cooper Cup. when people didn't expect him to produce and he did, but I'm not excited to see this news. Our, our risk ratings in the UDK are going to rise on Cooper cup. I I'm sure of that. And he's moved from like one to four because I see those top four wide receivers so close that look, you, if you have a hamstring injury, that's going to separate you a little bit in my rankings.

Cause I don't want that risk. Yeah. I have a rule that I've adopted over the last several years, which is when you're in draft season, don't buy the ADP dip of currently injured players. Now, if he's totally back and healthy by the time drafts come around, you're not buying an ADP dip and there won't be one, but certainly it's unfortunate.

Alvin Kamara is going to meet with Roger Goodell today to discuss the Las Vegas incident. And so we will get an answer likely soon on whether he'll be suspended for one game, two games, four games. Yeah, we don't know. And we might talk about him today. Later. Calvin Ridley.

This was, I guess, as good as it gets. Dealing with a toe injury. That was reported a lot of sad faces and then this morning we found out it's related to the cleats he was wearing and he switched cleats today and he's he's expected to be fine yeah he was like i'm a size 12 yeah he had no idea wait did cooper cup try this yeah he should like change his pants for the hamstring injury yeah exactly my pants were too tight. I really doubt that one, Mike.

We got to try everything. Well, you're in a good mood now, but what about this? Vikings running back Alexander Madison limped off the practice field. Like pimp limp? No, not a pimp limp. Like he hit a big play and he's like, look at that swag. No? Pimplm.com.

That's like the groin index, but it's for different injuries. No, don't go there, by the way. Who knows? I don't know what you're going to find. He stayed on the field to watch the remainder of practice. Okay. Unfortunately, this meant that seventh-round rookie Dwayne McBride ends up with first- reps with Madison out and,

uh, Kine Nwongwu also not practicing. So Madison camp injury didn't seem serious, but we'll have to pay attention. Yeah. You got to pay attention. Garrett Wilson expected to return to practice with that low. I want all my ankle injuries to be low ankle.

Yeah. That's just, that's a lot better than, than high ankle. And then Travion Williams. Um, who cares? I mean,

I don't know why this is in there. I care. I mean, he's fine though. So like, this is not news. Well, it was news because yes,

this is, it's an update for me. Actually. I hadn't seen this part. I don't know anybody out there that probably knows where he plays. So you might have to say that part too. The dynasty players know where Travion Williams is. He's on the Cincinnati Bengals.

He is fighting to be the backup to Joe Mixon, which could have some value if you are in much deeper leagues, of course. But the report came out. He went down. He was carded off. But I guess it is, Ian Rappaport says it's believed to be a mild ankle sprain but that this shakes things up you have Chris Evans there

you have Chase Brown who they drafted in the fifth round I believe this year so it can potentially shake things up for who is actually the backup OJ Howard has been waived by the Raiders I mean unfortunate for him, but Michael Mayer.

Mayer. Michael Mayer. I keep wanting to call him Michael Mayer. I actually think a storm is brewing for Jason, by the way. Yeah? I do. Oh, no. I think a storm is brewing.

For a rookie tight end. I think we're going to have three or four this year that you're going to have to talk about on waiver shows. I think it's going to be dalton la porta la porta kincaid mayor and maybe one of the packers tight ends i don't know if it will happen but i will enjoy every minute there's certainly opportunity this year is it austin hooper still in vegas yes he he is he is also still aust Hooper. One of his worst qualities. Oh, man. Oh, no. This year will be the real testing of the rookie tight end.

This is a great rookie tight end class, and I have no doubt that there will be weeks. You remember Greg Dulcich last year as a rookie. I mean, he was really important for waivers on certain matchups, but obviously Greg Dulcich wasn't a good pick last year no you're right didn't win people leagues all of them will have games kincaid mayor um you know uh laporta but musgrave a lot of the muskrat and don't forget he's on the pub uh you're right and i think the hard part is that it's for tight end ever, it's very difficult to be consistent in any way, shape, and form.

And it's so hard for a rookie to have earned the level of trust of the quarterback, playing time, the blocking assignments, to do all that so well as a rookie, to be on the field enough, to be consistent, to not just be a waiver ad that you pick up, you play, and then you're like, dang it, that's not it. So it'd be fun, though. It'd be fun if it happened. All right, that was today's News & Notes presented by USAA Insurance.

You can learn more at USAA.com slash insurance. You guys ready? Let me hear it. Ice and fire. Yes. All right. We have each selected an ice and fire pick for today's show and um we're going to tease them a little bit before we let you know what category these players are in but jason gets the privilege of beginning our ice and

fire segment yeah and i'm going to start us off with a tight end we were just talking about rookie tight ends and how they are and i'm going to talk about last year's tight end we were just talking about rookie tight ends and how they are and i'm going to talk about last year's tight end number three super uber talented he man has set at times the nfl record for yardage george kittle chops down trees between plays on the sideline yeah just to stay warm yeah that guy is awesome i really like george kittle um unfortunately he's not fire ice oh george kittle george kittle is my ice player my ice pick um and i think that it is it's a bad pick right now in fantasy football um All of us have him ranked slightly behind his ADP. I'm the lowest. I've got him at tight end seven.

If you look at how his fantasy points came last year, it was an anomaly for his career. We're going into year seven here. And he had 11 touchdowns last year. And you think, well, yeah, George Kittle and tight ends, they're touchdowns. Of course George Kittle had 11 touchdowns. Here's his career season finishes at touchdown two five five two six he's never been a touchdown guy now

last year 11 touchdowns and we know we say this all the time and it's just proven year after year after year at every position touchdowns are not a sticky stat there are extremely few players I mean you could count them on one hand, that are like, every year they're going to be double-digit touchdowns. Even great running backs who do it one year, turn around the next year and don't have it done. The yardage wasn't really there for him. And I know at the end of the year, there's a lot of people really, really in on George Kittle because of what he did with Brock Purdy. He had seven touchdowns in his final four games with Brock Purdy. He had seven touchdowns in his final four games with Brock Purdy. He was just a machine. He won people championships. He was awesome because

he is awesome. He could do it. He could be the number one tight end in the league. If him and Kelsey switched teams, George Kittle would be drafted at the 105, and you could argue it's the best pick in fantasy. Unfortunately, he plays for the San Francisco 49ers. He is not the number one target. That's probably Debo. He's not the number two target. That's probably Christian McCaffrey. He's not the number three target. That's Brandon Iyuk. So you're talking about a fourth read in an offense where he is dominant, but he's not going to be able to get it done. He only had an 11.5% target share in the games where he played with all of those players.

In fact, there were only two games where Purdy was playing and Debo was playing, and in those games he had 22 yards and 29 yards. He can get it done. He's talented. He'll have monstrous games. But his bad games are going to be really bad because he's also just a kick-butt blocker. I mean, he'll block people into the ground and set things up for their team in ways where he can have an amazing game for the San Francisco 49ers. But for fantasy football, not so much.

Year seven seven one complete season for George Kittle he hasn't played every game since 2018 so that's another thing you need to factor in right like last year 60 for 765 is not doing it for you if you don't have 11 touchdowns right you need the 11 in fact over the last decade there's only one top five tight end who is fourth on his team in targets. And that was Robert Tunyon, who only had 59 targets, but he had 11 touchdowns. So if you get 11 touchdowns, sure. But that's not something we can predict in fantasy.

But here is my biggest point. I think the biggest reason I'm super ice on George Kittle is not because I don't like George Kittle. I love Greg Dulcich this year. Of course I would rather have George Kittle on my roster than Greg Dulcich. He's great. But he's a fifth-round pick right now. Right now, in order to select him, you're giving up Justin Herbert or Justin Fields.

Those guys are going to be every week difference makers. You're giving up Miles Sanders or Cam Akers or Alexander Madison right now. You're giving up Terry McLaurin or Hopkins or Watson or Judy. It's just not worth it. The inconsistency you're going to receive will not be worth it just because you're like, I want to fill my tight end position and feel good about it. Don't do it. That's my case.

Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think it's very fair. I saw those numbers, the target share, when all those four guys were on the field. Now, look, San Francisco is going to go through their injuries because they do it every year. Sometimes it's Kittle. If you took one or two of those pieces out,

you know, that's a trade target all of a sudden. For sure. But as it stands right now, we have not – I don't think any of us have even, like, thought about drafting him at that price point. Correct. And every name that you mentioned that you're choosing him over, I think every single one of those I'd rather have over George Kittle.

Yeah, I genuinely would. I'm curious. I don't know what my exposure is. I wonder if I have any George Kittle. Yeah, I don't think so. Not at that price. So I'll take up the mantle next because we don't want to just, you know, poop all over the tight end position.

I mean, we do because we do it every year. Well, they do it. Yeah. Well, it's on them, yeah. And this guy made it easier last year because he wasn't participating a lot. I want to talk about the brand-new tight end for the New York football giants. The off-season surprise edition. The off season surprise edition, the tallest man in the receiver room.

We're talking about Darren Waller. We're talking about a player that's made a huge contribution in the past, getting older, changing teams, Daniel Jones confidence, but I'm here to tell you, this is a fire pick fire. Darren Waller, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go tell you, this is a fire pick. Fire. Darren Waller.

Goo, goo, goo, joo. Darren Waller is going to make a difference in your leagues this year. And you can look to the discussion that Jason just brought forth regarding the draft position of George Kittle. And then you can look Darren Waller's way, and you see him sometimes in the seventh, into the sixth round. So here's what I have to say about Darren Waller that I want to open your eyes to, why I'm getting more and more,

I would say, enthusiastic about his potential in New York. First of all, the last two full seasons he had, he did finish as the tight end three and the tight end two. It's been a while. It has been a while. Those two years, the average was 98 receptions, 131 targets, six touchdowns.

You look at the Giants wide receiver room, you look at the targets that they have right now, it is almost impossible to define a leader in that. It also feels like they shouldn't be allowed to be called Giants. Oh, boy.

You know what I mean? That's a misnamed wide receiver room. Wow, the New York Giants have a bunch of slot receivers. They play big, Jason. They sit on boosters in that room, though. Oh, man. You're heated today. I don't know.

I've got a lot more caffeine in the system. We're recording in the morning. Look, in fantasy football, there's a clear negative correlation between team wide receiver and tight end shares. Historically, offenses without a clear wide receiver one see boosted tight end target shares. They went out. They wanted to equip Daniel Jones, who they brought back,

to be successful in this offense. And who's the wide receiver one in New York? Say a name out loud at the same time. Three. But it's got to be a wide receiver? It's got to be a wide receiver. Three, two, one. Sterling Shepard.

Oh, really? The guy coming off the Achilles in the ACL. It is. Who just came off the pup. Yes. So you've got Wandale and Crowderder and you've got paris campbell the answer might just be darren waller and so since you know daniel jones since his entire his entire tenure in new york wide receivers have seen less than 60 of the targets every

single year and that's without darren waller in the equation look daniel bellinger who did not profile to be much of an impact last year, was getting involved in the offense as a rookie very early. I'm seeing Kyle share the VHS cover for the movie Little Giants. Is that Rick Moranis? Oh, yeah. Thank you, Bruce. Little Giants.

Oh, boy. But right now, Darren Waller, he's flashing in camp. He's a matchup nightmare. He's in a good place. He's happy to be in New York. Linebackers, we know they can't cover Darren Waller. And I think that the price is why he's brought up here as a fire. If you were building into his draft price in fantasy football,

the fact that he has to reach these certain thresholds, it would be too scary to say, hey, new team, new quarterback. But the Giants showed me last year with very limited personnel. Brian Dable put his quarterback in a position to where they could compete regularly in games. bring back saquon you take some pressure off the defense i i don't know if darren waller a healthy darren waller can't get you know eight or nine targets a game in this offense he helps his quarterback so much so i'm i'm very excited about his potential i wanted to take him in our mock draft yesterday but he was stolen from me no it's i'm i'm all aboard here with the walrus it's gonna be great to have him back thank you i can't believe i missed the drop until the

end that was really it's all right that was pathetic we got there uh some of the quotes some of the quotes coming out of new york just sensational. You have a quote here from Connor Hughes. It appears the Giants have taken Darren Waller out. Some say for a breather. I think it's to force Daniel Jones to throw elsewhere. The buzz out of there is incredible. If he is truly healthy, he will be the top target for the New York Giants and look having getting a top target for any team it's it's a great thing to have when you don't have to spend a top five round

pick on him even better and then it turns out it's a onesie position a top target onesie position available at the back of the sixth round right now. That's beautiful. And I will throw in Darius Slayton, Jalen Hyatt, deep threats. Daniel Jones has had success there. If those guys can take the top off this defense and let Darren Waller run free in the intermediate routes in the middle of the field, I think it could be very, very interesting. Mike is going to share a player with us in a moment, but you're going to have to wait.

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giving you the peace of mind to focus on what truly matters. Find their products through banks, credit unions, and associations, or visit SecurianCanada.ca. Securian Canada, insurance designed for life. All right, Mike, it's your turn to share an ice or fire pick with us all right i'm going to talk about a stalwart of fantasy football someone who has dominated for us at the running back position year after year after year it's mr alvin cam We're going to get right into it. I am very, very concerned about Alvin Kamara heading into the 2023 season. Yes, there is an ADP dip because we don't know what's going on.

We're going to have more clarification of will he miss any games or not. I'm projecting he will miss at least a couple games, anywhere from one to four, but that matters. When you're drafting a player who is suspended, they can't go on your IR. They just sit there on the bench waiting, waiting to unleash them. Meanwhile, they are absolutely killing the moves that you can make when hot waiver guys pop in week one.

And you're just like, well, I got to sit here with Alvin Kamara. But here's the ugly side of the story on top of that. The efficiency has gone down. We have a full, like, Lamar Miller situation here. Over the last two years, his volume, the volume we've all been screaming at New Orleans to give us, like, we need Alvin Kamara to touch the ball more. Tons and tons of carries the last two years. Last year was the lowest yards per carry of his career.

It was a bad year. Yeah. He was really bad last year on the advanced metrics. Over the first four years of his career, he had at least one 40-plus yard rush. In the last two years, 30 was his longest. The explosive plays on the ground, they just haven't been there for Alvin Kamara the last two years, despite the volume.

The receptions have gone down since the Drew Brees years. We have six total rushing touchdowns the last two years, and like Andy said, the terrible efficiency marks you know it was over the past two years a touchdown per 77 carries that's not the Alvin Kamara that we've grown to love over his first few years in the in the the league then look at his competition right we have Jamal Williams who got himself a nice decent contract and then they spent a day two pick on Kendre Miller, which to me really emphasizes how the New Orleans Saints feel about Kendre Miller

because not only did they spend a higher draft capital pick, which we want, our running backs, we want a day one or a day two pick. He was hurt at the time. And NFL teams, if you've been paying attention to the draft for any amount of years, are scared poopless for anyone who is injured in the draft season. You get outliers like Jamison Williams who was coming off of an ACL tear and they still took him in the first round, the Lions did.

But for the most part, running backs who are hurt, even if they're really good, they just tumble down draft boards. Look at Sean Tucker. This guy was an incredible running back, and he went undrafted. Teams are like, we're not even going to spend a sixth or seventh round pick on this guy. He's hurt. We're going to see what he can do, and maybe we'll try and get him as an undrafted free agent. Last year, you had Alvin Kamara getting on that volume because here are the running backs who took snaps for the Saints last year. Jordan Howard, Dwayne Washington, Eno Benjamin, David Johnson, Tony Jones Jr., Mark Ingram, Latavius Murray.

This was the competition last year for Alvin Kamara. Man, David Johnson played for the Saints last year? Dude, when I went and looked at this list, it blew my mind. Like, Eno Benjamin. I forgot he was on the team for a couple weeks. Yeah, he got picked up after the Cardinals dumped him. And like I said, Jamal Williams, Kendra Miller. We have actual competition for him now, especially at the goal line.

Both Jamal Williams and Kendra Miller are big-bodied power backs that you can just put in on the goal line and get two yards. Jamal Williams was incredible at it last year. Nick Underhill, who is a beat reporter for the Saints, has already highlighted Kendra Miller multiple times throughout the training camp experience. Again, the suspension is incoming, and then here is a stat which just kind of highlights everything because Alvin Kamara is, look, he's at the age cliff, okay? He is 28 years old. Peering out across. Yeah.

For running backs, which this factors into the whole running back discussion that's been going on for several weeks now with guys trying to get paid. Since 2014, only 10 running backs averaged 12-plus fantasy points per game in their age 28 season which is not that great alvin camara was barely over 12 points last year and finished as the running back 18 appearing in 15 games you have to have an outlier touchdown season from camara so those 10 running backs all of them had 12 plus touchdownplus touchdowns except for Aaron Jones last year and Joyke Bell, who you always have a wild name when you have these stats. It seems like a really bad bet.

We still got it. That's Joyke Bell, baby. Joyke Bell was the original Tuba guy. It just seems like a really bad bet to carry a 28-year-old running back whose efficiency has plummeted, and he has to get touchdowns. Meanwhile, you have a young buck and then a guy who just had a bajillion touchdowns last season. That's a lot.

It is. It is a lot of touchdowns. But Alvin Kamara is pretty much off my draft board if anywhere close to where he's going. Let me ask you this then, Jason, Mike. What's he worth if Alvin Kamara – I think he's going to catch 50 passes for this team. Yeah.

I've been watching the camp stuff. I mean, the receiving game, that's where he excels. If he catches 50 passes. He caught 57 last year. Yeah, if he catches 50 passes, but he's a part of this offense with the touchdowns not guaranteed what's he truly like take the name out of it yeah are you and is a suspension going to play a part in whether you're willing to hold that like if he's just 50 catches and he doesn't have a bunch of touchdowns and he suspended three games I mean you're wasting a

roster spot aren't you that's that's how I am looking at it. Yeah. I mean, the thing is we're going to know, hopefully here pretty soon, what the suspension is or isn't, and that will allow his ADP to rest because obviously right now he's the running back 29. He doesn't cost a ton, and if he had no suspension, I'd be like, no. I mean, of course that's a fine draft pick to get a guy at running back 29, who's such a good pass catcher and has done it before. But if he, if he loses a couple of games and then you've got to hold them and you have everything you described, I've had a

really hard time every time I'm, you know, around his ADP going, do I want to do it? Cause I do see, you know, he's, he's definitely getting less and less efficient but he still catches the ball so he's not a bum he's not off my boards uh but you make a really compelling case of the fact that the competition be careful is super different now okay well let's uh let's turn the page for a moment and let's talk about t. Higgins. I mean, who doesn't love T. Higgins? I love him. I love T. Higgins. I mean, T. Higgins is a great player. Right? We are bringing the fire today.

I think we'll have some good discussion in a moment. This one I feel very strongly about. Not because, look, we're not sitting here doing an ice and fire show about... You know, you just talked about George Kittle. He's a very talented player. He plays a huge role. He's going to have tight end one weeks on the year. But it's about the draft cost.

It's about what to expect from this roster and this team. And the more I dove into T. Higgins and looked at this draft cost and looked at what kind of player he actually is relative to the draft cost, he's an ice player for me this year. And I'm sorry because I know we like watching him play football. He is drafted as the wide receiver 12 right now in the third round. In fact, I think we've been in quite a few mocks

where you've had that chance to grab him, and maybe I'm misremembering, but you guys have passed at times on T. Higgins when you're staring down some of these other options. You're drafting him at his super tippy top ceiling, in my opinion. Wide receiver 12 is a position and a finish that he's never approached before. He had four of 17 weeks last year. We actually finished inside the top 12 at all. And two of those four weeks, they were without Jamar Chase on the field. And I know a lot's been said about he was banged up, and so he started some games and then didn't play some games.

Look, I'm looking at what to expect from him this season. He's finished at wide receiver 17. That was his peak last year. But you are now expecting, and this is the headline that I want you to hear, you're expecting a player who is 42nd in the league in targets per route run to finish as a top 12 receiver on the Cincinnati Bengals. I think he's a top 24 guy. I think that's where he'll end up,

but he's going ahead of players that I think you might admit have higher upside DK Metcalf and the end zone targets and his ability to be the one in the offense. Chris Olave, Mike, who we, we talk about having a tremendous upside and I'm going to throw another wide receiver two or one B,

whatever you want to say, Devontae Smith. I'd much rather have him and pick him at this spot than I would T. Higgins. And so you have this choice with T. Higgins where, look, yes, he's a highly productive player, but you can pass on him and draft highly productive players a round or two later. Metcalf and Debo are more than a round later than Tee Higgins. Keenan Allen and Calvin Ridley are two rounds later than Tee Higgins.

And so I am not willing at this draft spot to take him where he has to finish well above his highest career finish because I just don't think it's realistic. Like Tee Higgins, here's how it happens. And you're going to say it's the same thing you said about George Kittle, 10-plus touchdowns. If T. Higgins ends up 10-plus touchdowns, then he can overcome being 42nd in targets per route run

and not necessarily running as many routes as some of the top tier wide receivers. But if he doesn't get 10-plus touchdowns, I really think you're going to be unhappy with the cadence of performances from T Higgins. So I think it's a hot take because I don't think anybody said anything negative about T Higgins this off season, which is evident in the ADP of wide receiver 12.

But I really just don't think, I think the, the Joe Burrow Cologne is rubbing off. And I think anything that touches Joe cool, it's getting an ADP bump. But yeah, the Joe Burrow cologne is rubbing off. And I think anything that touches Joe Cool, it's getting an ADP bump. But yeah, I think he's too expensive. That's really my case.

And I have no clue if you agree or not. Does it smell like cool water? What's the Joe Cool fragrance? I really don't know. Cool water's not nice enough. No, Joe Cool, I mean, I don't know. Google what's the most expensive cologne because he smells good oh that's how well he that's how you that's how i know what smells good i sure is i don't know that's that's the most jason thing i have ever heard anyone in this room do you have

a fragrance that you wear is anyone no owl axeay? Something like that. Oh, my gosh. Oh, yeah. That's funny. I've got Dior. That's mine. Okay. Eeyore? Dior, yeah.

It's a real sad smell. It's just depressing. I put it on whenever I feel bad. Eeyore. By the way, Kyle's sharing this with us. Over the last five years, if you want to be top 12, you average 97 receptions for over 1,300 yards and 9.5 touchdowns. That's a very high bar, and it's not that he couldn't do it.

It's that he's going to have to have his career best year, and then you've broken even on your draft pick. That's the point. So I will say this. I agree with you that you are drafting him basically at his ceiling. I don't think you're drafting a wide receiver at 12 that is not going to finish as a top five guy. You're hoping he finishes as a wide receiver 12. There are spots in the draft where that's what you're staring at. You're staring at guys that are near their ceiling and, and that's what you've got to draft. And

obviously that's more common in the first few rounds. So it's just a matter of your confidence in the player, your confidence in the situation, your confidence in the team. I think the best stat that you shared was where he was in routes run. That gets a little bit scary, but I do think it is worth at least giving the other side of the argument. You brought up that T. Higgins had a couple games he missed. He basically didn't play in three games. Now, if you look at his game log, he didn't miss a game. He was there, and so it looks like he finished.

Yeah, missed the absent Buffalo game, obviously, that everybody did. But he didn't physically 1% snap share in one game. Exactly. So only 16 games, and then he had three games where he went out early. So you're talking about 13 games where he finished as the wide receiver 17 so you could see the path but I went back and I looked because Chase missed some games you talked about Higgins had big games without him in the games there were nine full games that Jamar Chase and T Higgins played together. And the 17-game pace of those games for Tee Higgins would have been

136 targets, 87 receptions, 1,192 yards, and nine and a half touchdowns, which is right around there. Last year, if he had done that, that would have been the wide receiver eight. So Tee Higgins is really good, but if you think other people going next to him have the actual chance to finish as a top five guy or at a different position being better, then I think it's a good ice argument to be made. All right, Jason, I think you're up. I am up, and I'm going to talk about a player

that was on yesterday's show in an important way uh it is a player that uh look one of our producers just hates just absolutely hates um and that producer is kyle borgagnoni yeah uh last night he had a chance to draft keenan allen and he must have been like man keenan's so ice but he's wrong fire keenan and the joke here is that this is yeah because because kyle's like this is a joke for one person right no i think there's like four or five of us that are enjoying this um keenan allen i think is a fire pick uh he is obviously a great wide receiver has been for the last six years since 2017 over the last six years, he ranks only behind Devante Adams in total targets, receptions, first downs. He's just been really, really great. You look at the last six

years, he finishes the wide receiver three, 12, eight, 14, 14. And then last year was bad. He finishes wide receiver 42, but that's because he only played in 10 games and he missed basically the first 10 weeks of the season. However, when he got back from week 11 on, he was not good. He was great. He was the wide receiver four in fantasy from that point forward. So you're like, I know he's consistent. I know he can get a lot of targets and in PPR leagues is good, but I just don't think he's got a ceiling. Yes, he really does. He can get it done every single game as the first read target for a great offense with a great quarterback. You know, we talk about Kellen Moore coming over to this team for the Chargers. I'm very excited to see them open this offense up a little bit

and to have Herbert, who I love for fantasy this year, not be playing with broken ribs and hopefully have his targets. But Kellen Moore has done a lot with the slot player. If you look at the last three years, in 2022, CeeDee Lamb led the NFL in receiving yards from the slot. In 2021, Cedric Wilson quietly had the third most slot touchdowns behind only Cooper Cup and Devontae Adams. In 2020, rookie CeeDee Lamb had the second most slot receiving yards in the NFL, and Keenan Allen is a dominant slot player.

If you think about the great slot players right now, Cooper Cup, right? Just dominating. Cooper Cup and Keenan Allen last year both had nine games where they played the whole game. And in those games from the slot, Keenan Allen had more receptions, more yardage, and a higher quarterback rating from the slot. You think he's going to do a lot from the slot? I think he's going to do a lot from the slot. That's what Keenan Allen's going to do. That's getting me hot.

I think the reason people are afraid is because he's 31. I don't love drafting old players. Well, all these injury symbols that are next to all of these game logs also concern people. Yeah, I mean, early, early in Keenan Allen's career, it was thought, oh, he's a huge injury risk. And then all of a sudden, he wasn't. And then last year, he was. Right now, he's healthy. I believe he's looking great in camp from all the reports and age 31 is not a death knell for

wide receivers whose trait is getting open from the slot in 2016 Larry Fitzgerald led the NFL in receptions at age 33 he was the wide receiver 11 that year. Emmanuel Sanders, Julio Jones, Adam Thielen, all top 20 wide receivers at that age. Last year at age 30, he averaged the most red zone targets per game in his career. So I think a lot of people are worried they see him as someone that doesn't have upside. Here's what I believe Keenan Allen is. Keenan Allen is a solid foundational piece of a fantasy roster that's going to have a high score every single week. He is going to have the most targets for one of the best offenses from one of the best quarterbacks, and he's good at football. He's

getting an upgrade offensive coordinator, and their line should be a lot healthier. So when I look at Keenan Allen, I don't see a lot of risk there. That's the way that I view the pick. I think he's going to have a phenomenal season this year. Yeah, I think the baseline foundation of building your team on a Keenan Allen is great. I don't think you're going to get – we've seen him for how many seasons now? He's got 10 seasons played. He doesn't score a lot of touchdowns.

It just doesn't happen for Keenan Allen. He never has. So, I mean, he averages 5.3 per season. I think he's had a couple of years with eight, most of them with four or five. You know, he accumulates a lot of numbers in an offense. And so, look, it encourages me greatly as somebody who has Keenan Allen on a dynasty roster that you think so highly of him. I told you this week I'd made the offer, floated it out, Keenan Allen for Calvin Ridley. Interesting. Then I saw you made him your fire pick, and I withdrew the offer to reconsider.

Oh, smart man. To reconsider because, you know, I'm excited about both of those players, but they're very different archetypes. Like Calvin Ridley is the kind of player that you're going to get, you know, multi-touchdown, um, big play potential.

Keenan Allen is a 10, a catch type of guy. Um, which is, I mean, to be fair, that's kind of what Cooper cup is, except for Cooper cup just scores like 17 times.

Um, so, you know, it is, you look at the game log last year, that run that you talked about, it was, it wasn't like bouncing between number four, number 32, number six, number 40.

It was 22, 13, 15, 20, 13, 23. It was just peppered with targets, reliable first down target, and I guess there's really no reason we need to go away from that other than fear of age. Yeah, and if you compare him to T. Higgins, right, T. Higgins is going to maybe finish higher, but I would prefer Keenan Allen in the fourth round as my fourth player on my roster

than drafting T. Higgins as a top 12 guy. That was the T. Higgins case. There's some players that I think Keenan Allen's one of them where you can wait around, take somebody else in the third, maybe get yourself a little Mark Andrews. You know, look at who you'd take. Do you want T. Higgins plus a fourth-round pick, or do you want, like, Mark Andrews and Keenan Allen?

Give me that. All right. So maybe that'll talk Kyle back into him. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. We got one more name. All right, from Keenan Allen.

So we're going out with the old in with the new fire say flowers a fire rookie for the baltimore ravens who is currently going as most rookies do he's in the back of the ninth round wide receiver 46 so here's the case for zay flowers number one first round first round draft pick, 22 overall. We love that. We love having that day one draft capital. Of the first round wide receivers, if you're looking at their actual production profile, which if you're new to that term, a production profile is like their percentage of their team. so their percentage of their team's receiving yards receptions touchdowns Zay Flowers has the strongest production profile uh of the first round wide receivers he was he was dominant now he went to a smaller school but we love seeing that a player

just absolutely took over what's going on with the rest of the Baltimore Ravens wide receivers well Rashad Bateman who knows like like we had so we've had some bad vibes with him this offseason he had to get the uh the shot in his foot which Matthew Betts had highlighted this is not a normal thing for the injury that he's recovering from. He's still not around. OBJ, yes, they gave him a ton of cash. I totally understand that. But look at the facts about where we are with Odell Beckham. He's 31, much like Keenan Allen, except he is coming off his second ACL tear. He didn't play last year, and he hasn't been

the Odell Beckham fantasy force in years. When he was with the Rams, he got that trade. Was he traded or released? I don't remember. But he ends up on the Rams for the Super Bowl run. Yeah, it was a midseason trade. He had a couple decent weeks as a Ram because he was

catching some touchdowns. But do you realize in those eight games, he was averaging just over three receptions and 38 yards. That's not... Three for 38. I think you could aim higher. Yeah, that's not getting it done.

Look at Lamar Jackson. It's been a while for Lamar Jackson since we've seen that prolific passing touchdown season. But last year, when he had an actual wide receiver one, Rashad Bateman, Bateman was healthy for three games. In those three games, Lamar Jackson threw 10 touchdowns combined. He can still absolutely get it done. Now let's look at the opportunity for just the Baltimore Ravens offense.

Since 2019, here's how the Ravens have ranked in neutral pace. Back with the old, we're going to grind it out, high T, run, run, run, run, run. Lev Bell, Devonta Freeman, Latavius Murray. Neutral pace ranked since 2019. 32nd, 31st, 28th, 32nd. We don't like that because we want a high-paced offense. High-paced offense means many, many opportunities. Todd Monken, the new offensive coordinator,

back his years with the Bucs, neutral pace, 4th, 4th, 11th. Last year the Ravens used 11 personnel, which is three wide receivers, just 12% of their plays. This was dead last. Todd Monken with the Buccaneers, 69% because Todd Monken wants to air the ball out. And can Lamar get it done? Well, Lamar's rank in fantasy points per dropback,

last year, third, seventh, first in 2020. Lamar Jackson is a good quarterback who can get the ball where it needs to be. His mobility just helps his players get open. Zay Flowers is one of these players. He's not an overwhelming physical force. Yeah, can Lamar throw it to little guys? Yes, he can.

To little giants? Zay Flowers gets open, and the Baltimore Ravens clearly believe that the size is not going to be an issue. 5'9", 182. Is that what he is? Yeah. So he's a first-round pick, and he wins with tactical skill of getting open. He's a tremendous wide receiver.

Lamar Jackson is already saying, I'm going to call him Joystick, which is an overplayed nickname uh in the NFL at this point but the the point remains that Lamar Jackson is very impressed the training camp has uh the training camp hype has been really nice for Zay Flowers that's not everything that is just another piece of the puzzle to go along with my my confidence already in what I think the Ravens' offense is going to be. And I think it's very possible that Zane Flowers ends up as the number one wide receiver for the team.

It could take a couple weeks. It usually does for rookie wide receivers. But I think by the halfway point of the season, spending the back of the ninth round, I think you have a player who's going to be an impact player for your fantasy football teams. What's interesting here is that you have two storylines, in my opinion. You have the case for the talent of Zay Flowers, the player.

First round draft capital, how quickly young wide receivers ascend compared to these older guys. And then you have a case for kind of a reimagined Baltimore offense. And that's a case that you two have been making strongly with good reason throughout the off season about what to be excited for with Lamar and a pass heavy offense and more creativity and, and driving the ball down the field. And we all want to see that from Lamar Jackson.

So, you know, it could be one of those things where like three weeks into the season, this is like the most obvious take in the world. And right now it's not. But like Zay Flowers being the young, talented, I mean, think about going into the season, Justin Jefferson's rookie year, right? Yeah, it took a couple weeks.

Where the obvious nature of this talented player being a premium target in the office was not clear to anybody. It just wasn't. And then it took about three weeks because of Bateman's injury history, because of Beckham's age, it could be one of those things where like, Oh yeah, like this is so clear.

And right now the draft cost is not there. And I don't know if, look, he's going to get opportunities in preseason, say flowers to show you things on film. he'll get snaps I mean that that's a player that's going to be out there getting his opportunities and so you may see that draft price rise a little bit Bateman's injuries you know we'll see if the second case that you guys are making which is I buy into like the Todd Monken reimagined offense. If that part's true, there could also be other opportunities

for other players in this offense. Jason loves Mark Andrews. If Beckham's healthy and has that quarterback-wide receiver relationship, he will have games too if they're throwing that much, if they're passing the ball that much. It certainly won't all be a 5'9", 180 Tuesday flowers, but it's an interesting combination to put that kind of talent with that kind of an offense.

Yeah, when he was drafted to the Ravens, I was really excited for when plays break down. Bateman's going to be going. Maybe he's the first read. He's flying down the sideline if he's healthy, if he's even there. Beckham is toast to me. But if a play breaks down and Lamar's dropping back to pass and he's scrambling, you're not guarding Zay Flowers,

that type of a player for a long term. It's kind of like Steve Smith with Cam Newton where it was like if Cam can buy some time, you're just not continuing to guard a player like that. Yeah, it's just not possible. So that's where I was really excited to see those plays that break down, that don't go the way that they want. I think those are going to go a lot to Zay Flowers,

and I do actually have him statted as the number one wide receiver on the team. All right, we did it. Got through ice and fire. Ironically, Kyle, I believe, is currently wearing a Keenan Ellis jersey. He's repenting. Now, he didn't put that on. Kyle, you're there with us. You didn't put that on mid-show in order to, like, rebuke Jason, did you?

You've had that on the entire episode? I wore it to sleep last night. Okay. Yeah, that's all he wears to sleep, and that's the problem. Oh, no. All right, we are done with today's episode of the show. But guess what? We're back with another one tomorrow. Getting into the wide receiver rankings.

Don't forget, head over to ultimatedraftkid.com. Get yourself prepped up. Get yourself ready. The season is here. Talk to you soon. Goodbye. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Fantasy Footballers Podcast. Join our fantasy football community on jointhefoot.com

and follow us on Twitter at the FFBallers.