Fantasy Footballers - Fantasy Football Podcast - Ice & Fire Picks + Undrafted Gems - Fantasy Football Podcast for 8/5

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

Fantasy Football show for Aug 5, 2025. Ice & Fire players for the 2025 fantasy football season! Find out who Andy, Mike, and Jason think will be true difference makers. Breakout candidates, upside picks, and players to avoid in fantasy football drafts! Manage your redraft, keeper, and dynasty fantasy football teams with the #1 fantasy football podcast.2025 ULTIMATE DRAFT KIT + Draft Analyzer available now at UltimateDraftKit.com(00:00) Intro(04:00) Undrafted Gems(13:00) NFL News(23:43) Ice and Fire(24:30) Ice: Andy’s Pick(32:00) Fire: Mike’s Pick(39:16) Ice: Jason’s Pick(45:38) Fire: Andy’s Pick(52:50) Ice: Mike’s Pick(57:56) Fire: Jason’s PickConnect with the show:Subscribe on YouTubeVisit us on the WebSupport the ShowFollow on XFollow on InstagramJoin our Discord

The Fantasy Footballer's Studio is sponsored by Walmart. Welcome to the Fantasy Footballers podcast with your host, Andy Holloway, Jason Moore, and Mike Wright. Tuesday, August 5th. Welcome in one and all. Mike Wright, Jason Moore, Andy Holloway, the Fantasy Footballers podcast. Ice and fire on today's episode, one of our most heralded. Is it heralded? I don't know if it's Harold.

Oh, it's the Harold sing of this episode. They bring the trumpets out. They play the trumpets. They announce the show. Ice and fire today. We do have news to catch you up on some that has made Jason very happy this morning. Yeah. And we're doing, we're going to talk some undrafted gyms as well.

So looking at some undrafted players we think have potential, which works, you know, towards dynasty leagues. If they're guys sitting out on your waiver wire potentially, but also just players to pay attention too very early in the season after your drafts or, you know, sometimes after you have your redraft league and your draft happens and you're just a couple weeks before the season starts or a week before and you want to pivot a player out of that last spot on your roster. Yeah, or even your last draft pick. Like when you're in the draft and you're taking a swing at that last pick, sometimes the, you know, you swing for the fences, you grab someone who's way, way, way lower in ADP, usually undrafted and just sneak them on, see what happens.

We have the Value Scout tool now added to the Ultimate Draft Kit at Ultimate DraftKit.com. Just another feature that you can access as you get ready for your drafts. That is live on the mobile apps and on the web. You can learn more about everything involved with the UDK at Ultimate DraftKit.com. We got Mike back in the building. Shaloo. You can, well, not without a couple of, what, plane delays and things like that. Oh, yeah.

You are the least fortunate of the travelers in. in this studio, I think. You traditionally do not just get on planes. Sometimes you get on them and you sit on the tarmac for hours and then you text us. Yeah, they know when to tell you to show up. Right. They just don't know how to take off at the time they said, we're going to do that. Did you get an explanation for your delays?

It was, yeah, weather. Oh, weather. It's weather. It's the middle of the United States was messing everything up. Okay. I blame them. Stupid middle. Yeah, you can call them out.

Call them out. right now. Slowing down my planes. Get it together. But he's back in the building. You can follow the show over on X at the FF Ballers. Make sure you go over to YouTube. Watch the show over there,

including a special weekly mini-series we have releasing every Saturday right now. YouTube.com slash the fantasy footballer. Subscribe. Click the bell when the season starts. We'll also be doing Sunday Live, which is a live show right before the game start on Sunday, get you prepped up. You know, we have our Friday.

episode, but things change, and everybody faces the tilt and the start-sit decisions, and Sunday live is- And weather, especially if you're in that middle. In the middle weather, yeah, lots of good stuff. Wrecking our planes and our football. Yeah, well, weather does that. That's why we like building open stadiums. All right, let's get it started. all right we are about a month from kickoff we're looking at some of those late round undrafted players

you want to keep an eye on them as training camp happens mike you weren't on the show yesterday morning i i kind of talked about my philosophy on caleb williams and some of the training camp news of things that happened and it was like my position was that players can get they can go from good to better or you know really good to just okay but it's hard to buy into camp hype when it's bad to good. When it's a player, you're making a complete change. That's the more difficult thing to buy into any camp hype or information. And we kind of talked about Caleb, like, the vibes are not good.

Like as a whole, the vibes are not good in Chicago on Caleb's training camp performances and inconsistency, accuracy. Will Ben Johnson be able to fix him? And we were kind of talking about that. Yeah, just to jump in like a steady drum beat. is what you're looking for for the training camp. Bad is always more valuable and should be paid attention to more. As in we say that bad news.

Yes. Any bad news is not, there's no puff around that generally. Everyone's trying to hype their players. Everyone's trying to say how great they are, what great shape they're in, how everyone's looking good, they're trying to build morale. So when they're like, dude, this guy, this guy is, he needs to step it up. That means he sucks. Yeah, and it's not that good is always a puff piece.

It's like, that's what you want to hear. You want to hear, but consistently growing over these couple weeks. We don't have a ton of time to gather the data before our drafts. So it's the small things that we have to buy into and read. So let's each pick a name, somebody that you think could end up more relevant than obviously they're being projected to be right now because of, I mean, they're not draft. So, Jason, what's a name for you? I would love to go first because, ironically, the thing that has kind of pushed this player and that player is Woody Marks, a fourth round running back selection for the Houston Texans,

up into where I am now interested, is what's going on around him, specifically the news out of camp about Nick Chubb, not really looking good. This has been reported by beatwriters saying. That's also news from my eyeballs of last year, pre-injury. he was coming back from a devastating injury then got injured he's older and now you'd hope like okay he's two years away from the original devastating injury he should be good to go and you want to hear good reports out of camp unfortunately be reporters have talked about how he doesn't look like he has that explosiveness that strength and then the head coach comes out and is like

look he's been through a lot it's like that's not what you want to hear it's in it The Nick Chubb stuff is sad. Like Nick Chubb was a fantasy football hero for so long. Like your body can only do so much even with the most, you know, determined mind. Like Nick Chubb is a legend. But the report's out of camper that he doesn't have the burst to get into the second and third level of the defenses. So, you know, being a plodder, being a, you know, a fourth down guy, maybe that works for Houston. but the future is not Nick Chubb there.

Yeah, and then you've got Damien Pierce currently injured. Joe Mixon, currently injured, still dealing with his foot problem. So that leaves their Houty partner, Woody Marks, who we found out. We found out that his name,

Woody, is not his real name. Right. He goes by Woody because of how much he loves Toy Story and the Woody character. Hey, all right. I mean. Toy Story super fan. Yeah.

As a preschooler, love Toy Story. I mean, if these rules applied, my son would be named Buzz. Okay. But you didn't try to give him that nickname. No, no. He wanted to be Buzz Light year. Yeah. Woody Marks was very, very, very, very productive in the passing game in college.

This is a player who, you know, usually like, oh my gosh, they had, they had 40 catches. That guy can catch. And it's like, well, yeah, he had 47 catches last year. He had 261 receptions in college. It was a very good pass catching back, had over 1,000 yards last year. I don't think he is the most tremendous, you know, like pre-NFL draft. He wasn't my favorite running back or one of the diamonds in the rough that I just loved. But the situation around him where opportunity, he's going to be needed on this team.

You know, mix and playing a full season seems unlikely. And everyone else around him is not that good. I also just feel like because of the other players here, obviously Marx is a rookie and he is somebody you need to pay attention to. I would much rather take the shot on him than Chubb or Pierce. But it also means that like if Mixing can get back healthy, like it really is his depth chart right now. Yeah, that's also true. The last thing to throw in here, like he was a day three running back. Generally don't love that, but there was at least a trade involved of the Texans giving away a 2026 third in the draft. So they traded a day two pick. Yeah. So the data is different on those types of scenarios, but it's good to at least see. It's not just we waited until the fourth to get our guy. It was the fourth came and he was still there and we had to go get him.

This is my undrafted gym is for Mike. It's Zach Ertz. Yeah. No, I don't disagree. Tied in for the Washington commanders who is either the last pick in drafts. He's old. He's definitely old. Go away, Zach.

But, you know, even from the jump at camp, it's like the most targeted player, like the go-to receiver. And here we are with this Terry McLauran mystery. And Debo Samuel is also old. And here's Zach Ertz, who's just reliable. He's old reliable. He's late career Jason Witton reliable. He can read a defense.

He can find a spot to stand in, not to run in, to stand in. And he's going to catch it, turn and fall down. with the best of them and sometimes he falls into the painted area and they call that a touchdown and it works out for your fantasy team so um you know he led the entire NFL and horizontal breaking routes i mean this is a player who's experience you know and you see this with tight ends not a vertical player no but i mean he really it's not like zackerts ever had a jimmy graham period of his career really like he wasn't the super athlete he was always the ppr and guy that can read

a defense. And you see this late in careers for tight-in. He came into the league as old reliable. He kind of, he sort of did. I mean, and it was you know, he's ninth in red zone target share amongst all past catchers. Terry McClurent, I mean, God forbid he's not there. If

he wasn't there, like, Zackerts has to have a role until he gets hurt or moves on into the sunset. I mean, it is not elegant or exciting. It is the most opposite of a rookie in Woody Marks as you can get, but I think Zachertz is worth a mention. Who is older? Zach Ertz or Adam Thieland? Oh, that's Ertz. That's Ertz. It's Adam Thieling.

Yeah. I thought Ertz was 30, almost 35. He is. Wait, how old is stealing? Almost 32. What? I thought he was like 33. All right. Adam Thielen is, I'll say that. I don't think he's relevant at all. Oh, I think it's over. Okay. Because they got too many good players around him. All right, I'm going to look, this is a Washington love section, apparently. Because I've been bringing this guy's name up on all our mock drafts. It's Austin Echler, running back for the Washington Manders last year. Among running backs with 100 of more touches, he led them all in yards per touch. Over the first 11 weeks, he was averaging, you know, almost 11 points per game on just 10 opportunities.

So the efficiency was there. The concussion pretty much derailed the season for him. the snaps drop down and if you tuned into our YouTube and we have a new special up there that's going up on Saturdays I highlighted Washington's

backfield because this is a good backfield that we want to take shots on. Last year they were number one in EPA per rush as a team fifth in total yards per game and they have the seventh highest team applied total and you want to take shots at that running back crew. This is not completely an anti-Bryon Robinson stance

This is just a, I think Austin Eccler still has juice, despite being over 30 years old for a running bag. So a couple Washington guys, Woody Marks, undrafted gyms for this week. Who knew Walmart could get you what you needed in as fast as an hour? Get free delivery on your first express delivery order with the Code Express. Valid for first express delivery order, $50 minimum, subject to availability restrictions apply. News and notes from around the league. Presented by Progressive Insurance. All right, we are digging into the news, and this is big time.

Jason, you've been waiting with bated breath here. I've been a long supporter of Kairn Williams, and I believe I just said recently. I think he will get his contract extension this year, and he did three years, $33 million extension with $23 million, and guaranteed. This is so good, like, if you've got them in Dynasty, you have to be thrilled. But I also think in redraft, it really just confirms that this is their guy. You know, last year they go out and they draft Corum and everyone's scared. And then it was even more all Kyron than this year. It's like, oh, Jarquez, they drafted another guy. Is it good? They're going to use the people have really moved past Blake Corum. Oh, yeah. With lightning speed. Oh, yeah. Who? Like last

year a third round running back who was going to take uh kairn's job per the blake quorum truthers and you're like well no now we got a guy drafted even later but he's the guy he's going to take kairn's job um weird yeah no one's

taking karen's job unless karen gets injured karen is a very good player he fits this system perfectly he's a touchdown machine so i'm i'm just happy that this came through and i want to say good job on both sides here. It's rare when a running back gets a big extension

where it's like, yeah, that was a good idea from both sides. Kyron wasn't going to get much more than this if he tested the free agent market next year. And the Rams didn't break the bank here. This is not, they're not paying Kyron like he is Sequin Barkley. Good job.

Good job, Rams. Yeah. Yeah, it's nice to have him in the fold, getting paid, cemented as the bell cow. We have Brown's quarterback updates, which is pretty much that every player on this team has been heard except for Joe Flacco. I mean, Kenny Pickett, Dylan Gabriel, Shadour Sanders, all of dealt with injuries.

Protect him at all costs. Joe Flacco is listed as the starter on the debt chart. Everybody else is banged up. The Browns had to go sign Tyler Huntley, which you'd think they wouldn't need to do with four quarterbacks. So, but they did. It really seems like Joe Flack is going to have a huge opportunity here. Sederate Tillman has been making waves in camp.

Deonté Johnson. has been making waves in camp. Give me that week one bangles matchup. I mean, Jerry Judy obviously had the great close to the year. So look, I made some adjustments to my projections for quarterback distribution of work on the course of the year in the UDK. So this is what we want. We want Joe Flacco at quarterback. We want it, especially if we're David Nijoku fans.

Yes, and I am. Yep. That is a huge, huge upgrade for him the most of all, in my opinion. I agree. So very excited about that. We are going to talk more about this team later on in the show. But New Orleans, Nick Underhill, great reporter for New Orleans. Now it's, you know, Spencer Rattler is clearly out playing Tyler Shuck in camp.

That's not bad. Hayner had snaps. I mean, I kind of hesitate to get into more detail of my thoughts here because I want to talk about it later in the show. So that's just the headline right now. One, the major TLDR here, one of the not good quarterbacks is leading in camp. Which usually means one of the not good quarterbacks is actually flopping. That's probably what it is.

Somebody has to be the best. The hope is that Shuck is better than we think. Or just Spencer Rattler. The hope coming into the years is Shuck. And then if Spencer Rattler is clearly better than him, per reports, yeah, you can shut this season right in the garbage can. Yeah, probably. The Vikings bracing for a roughly three game.

suspension for Addison. That sounds right. You know, a lot of people have wondered, like, why have we not had these suspensions yet, handed down for Addison, for Rashi Rice? The league normally takes a little bit more time with these, but gives them clarity before the season begins. Near the end of training camp. Yeah, near the end of training camp. Yep, you got it. All right. Other injury news, Chris Godwin, which that's big time news. According to the Bucks general manager, he's exactly where they wanted him to be.

but that does not mean he will be available in week one. That's just what we wanted. I mean, it's what we wanted and hoped. We hoped he might not be ready for week one. Get out of here. I mean, good. I'm happy that they aren't concerned, but obviously. They're not counting them out,

but they believe he could miss at least a couple games to start the season. That means I'm counting them out of my draft. Unless it's a really late IR stash situation. But I, you know, we brought it up. We talked about it a little bit yesterday, but I mean, I think Igbuka could, I think he could legitimately be the number one ride receiver on this team. I am all in.

From week one all the way through. Like, Mike Evans is in the twilight of his career, and he's great. He's a really good player, but he's not a volume player, right? He's not a- You need someone with juice. Yeah, I mean, Mike Evans is good for, you know, 65 to 70 catches and maybe he gets double-digit touchdowns. But this is, this is fresh legs.

This is a player that Jason absolutely adored coming out of college. refined route runner all the praise at camp and um just set up i mean godwin is confusing because they gave him the money but we've seen him recovery from injury recover from injury it wasn't good we got a new play caller it's just like egg buca is sitting there as a super late round pick and um people probably want me to stop talking about him so that he stays there but i i think he's going to be valuable is it garendo going to miss a few weeks and practice because the 49ers need to pick three or four running back to the miss camp time and he's one of the ones they picked. Yeah, this is important news. I don't know that he's ready to start

the season and obviously Christian McCaffrey's backup has always been very valuable. Jordan Mason was a, you know, one of the most important fantasy assets last year in his replacement. We have another Jordan. Nope. Jordan James. Get used to the name because it'll probably be said a lot if you're there a little earlier. He's the next guy up. Out of Oregon. Yeah, fifth round pick. Out of Oregon, a pretty good player. He's not like a burner, but, you know, last year in Oregon, over a thousand yards, 15 rushing touchdowns, which is one of those stats we look at for rookie running backs,

making the transition to the NFL for fantasy success. So, yeah, if CMC is made of, you know, peanut brittle, you got to be aware of who the backup is. He's not. He's made of titanium. Oh, Mike. Oh, Mike. I hope you're right.

I feel a lot more confident with my beating. Bijon in destruction comments than your Christian McCaffrey Hope. Yeah. No, no, Vijon's due. No, two-fifths of the time is great. That's a high percentage. Najee Harris, walking laps is part of his rehab. Not sure how that gets his eye back, but...

I hope it's at least brisk. Yeah, like you can't sprint, like genuine question. With a bad eye? With a bad eye, you can't... Maybe it hurts? Maybe depth perception? Maybe. I don't know.

Just have it be on a field. You don't have to be running, like, around corners. I am so bummed about this news. I feel like a little bit of a fantasy reaper here. Mason Taylor has suffered a high ankle sprain, Jets, rookie, tight-in, who is going to start from week one, who I love, who is, I think, a steal in drafts, and now is going to miss some time with a high- ankle sprain. It's brutal and a bummer.

And so he's not the only rookie dealing with some injuries. Terrence Ferguson has an injury, which I think really hurts him with the Rams because Higbee is there. It's not like, at least with Mason Taylor, I think when he's healthy, he'll be the starter right away because that's what he's going to be. And the depth chart behind him is not worth worrying about. But Higby, I mean, absolutely. Ferguson could have like a redshirt year if he needed it. Ferguson and Mason Taylor are really sad. This time of year when rookies miss time, it impacts their ability to start the year hot.

Cam Scataboo is another one. It bums me out, man. Big time. You know, he was looking great. So that sucks. With Mason Taylor gone, they are expecting a 75% market share for Garrett Wilson. Three out of every four passes will have to go his way. Yeah, I mean, then they'll throw it to Josh Reynolds for a second and be like, oh, that wasn't very fun. Honestly, this is, you know, terrible news, but Brees Hall might be the one that gets a little bump. you know if you're missing the tight end develop more of those little screen games there is a lot of negativity on just the Fields floating out

on the Twitter sphere right now putting up his you know completion percentages and offense has been terrible and that to me is he's trying to throw to the other guys and then when the game starts you're going to say screw that crap I'm going to throw it to Garrett Wilson

it's not helping Justin Fields losing Mason Taylor I'll tell you that no it's not Devin Neal suffered a hamstring strain will miss multiple weeks for the Saints he's a rookie running back. So right now it's Alvin Camara and can I say his name? You can say his name. Oh, yeah, of course.

Kendrae Miller could. Yes. Do, do, do, do, do. Kendrae Miller has just torn his hamstring. I like the player. He just, his body is paper mache. This time last year, you were, you were talking about their head coach quite a bit. Yeah.

Who won that one? Yes. who did not like Kendrae Miller. Yeah. Dennis Allen was not a fan. Dennis Allen was a third. Of his players. All right.

That was news and notes. Sponsored by Progressive Insurance. Quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and third party insurers. Not available in all states or situations. Coverage subject to policy terms, limits, and conditions. We'll take a break. And then it's ice and fire time.

Well, it only can. comes around once a year. It's one of my favorite shows. Buckle up. It's time. All right. All right. We each get to reveal a fire pick, a breakout candidate.

and an ice selection here on the show. Somebody we think winter is coming for in the upcoming year. I'll go ahead and start. I wasn't necessarily going to, but we talked about it earlier a little bit, so let's just roll right into it. The player I'm going to talk about has been just a player of potential, great potential, great hope and optimism and fantasy football worlds,

a player that was in maybe still is to some degree dynasty target right somebody that you won oh this was a man on on the rocket ship to being a top 10 dynasty just there forever and so sometimes reality is difficult to accept for the fantasy football community in particular the player I'm talking about is wide receiver

crystal lave who unfortunately is not somebody I believe in in any regard. It makes me so sad. I am here today to step upon with a forceful, heavy boot, the final hopes you have for this player. We talked about the wide receiver situation.

I like to bring up the fact that good teams can become bad teams and bad teams can become good teams. The parody in the NFL, it's incredible. It's what makes the NFL exciting is you can have teams that come out of nowhere like the commanders and they're awesome. but there are some situations that are so obviously not going to work as well. And the New Orleans Saints offense is one of those situations to the detriment of Chris Oliva. This is year four for Chris Oliva.

And, you know, you can look at him and you have to look at him in a very isolated way. You have to look at him on a per play basis or a per game basis because he's, missed a tremendous amount of time with injury and concussions, which you can go ahead and put that like at the very top in the story of Chris Oliva is that at any moment, if he suffers a concussion this year, you are talking about an extended absence. That is that is 100% the headline. As someone who has had him for years, has him in dynasty and is always terrified, that is the elephant in the room. It's the nuclear button option that most players don't have. Yeah, you don't want a player that if they suffer

what is a fairly routine thing that happens in the NFL, you're going to miss maybe four or five, six games, maybe an extended period of time. Who's to say based on their record, which right now they're I think projected to be the worst team in football, at what point of the season, if that happens again, does he miss the rest of the season?

Like there are, that is hanging over Crystal Lave. But the story around, hey, do you want to take that shot on him in the sixth round, which is where he's going right now, at least on Sleeper and an underdog? the story is also this offense in general and the fact that you have Jake I don't know man I've heard that Spencer Rattler's outplaying competition right now

I mean this is one of those like don't look at it like the commanders that can suddenly become a great team look at it like what we thought about the Giants offense last year going into the season where you knew you weren't going to get surprised by their production and Chris but Malik Neighbors was a top team The league neighbors was very good, but unfortunately, the kind of player that Crystal Lave is,

like who's the more explosive player, Chris Lave or Rashid Shaheed on the other side? Like, Shahid was a player that, okay, you get an explosive play, and it's very valuable to you. Chris Lave has become this player who, you know, on a per route basis, is getting worse and worse in production. And that's not what you want to see. You find that, like a couple years ago, we saw that the season with Derek Carr where it's like, man, you know what? some stuff is just not working. And you can't lay it all at the feet of Derek Carr. Like Derek Carr last year had a higher percentage of his games

finishing as a top six quarterback than Patrick Mahomes did, but you still saw the benefits going to Rashid Shaheed. And you got Brandon Cooks, who still is probably, you know, he's going to be a piece of the offense. You got tight ends in the equation. And you've got a team that's probably going to be in the bottom third and scoring. Now, maybe they surprise a little bit. If they do, it's going to have to involve.

No, they're going to surprise. is worse? I mean, it's really going to be a difficult thing for Crystal Lave to get into the end zone because it's always been a difficult thing when their team was good. I mean, he has five receptions inside the 10 since he got to the league.

He's never been a top five. That is five in 39 games. He's never been what? Top five on a week. No, no. He is a name that betrays the reality. of his situation anymore and you you shut up just just shut your mouth i still do i still believe that he is a great player i don't think great is the right word i don't i don't think that it's not

justifiable statistically to me i think you can say good you could say the best of the saints he's definitely the best wide receiver of the saints i don't know if that's for sure i don't i think Rashid Shaheed. Shaheed has a skill set in different areas of the field that I like a lot more. And we all were like, why is Derek Hartthorne in the football and not Olave? And it happened for two years. So I think

you're probably right. I think it should be Olave. He's more well-rounded. But he also showed that, look, lack of concentration on certain routes. He had some drops. He's got the concussion issue. He's got Shuck and Rattler and Hainer. Like, that is a law firm. That ain't a quarterback room. I have no problem. I got a snake, man.

Oh, Spencer. That's a for Spencer Rattler to be back out there. Yeah, I have no problem passing on Chris Olava in a draft. There's so much risk. It's a very easy, clear path to see how it goes wrong. But at the same time, when he is on the field, he's not a boom guy, but he's very consistent. I believe he's an A&R consistency metric because he's the first target.

He's going to have a great target share of an NFL offense, whoever the quarterback is. When he's healthy, he will be someone that should be started every week. The nice thing is he's going to give you 10.5, 11.5 points. It is helpful for him that our consistency throws out the injuries. Yes, obviously. Because I'm sure that that 17-game span is about a four-year span. That's how it feels.

And, you know, he has been very good, but he's had a lot better quarterback play. So I'm very, very hesitant. It's gone the wrong direction. Fantasy points for game last year was at seven when he did play. And that was with better quarterback performances. I mean, it's disappointing. And maybe he's the Terry McLaur and DJ more of his, stage of his career where he's just

a really good player in a really bad situation but I got to bring this to the attention of the foot clan I had no idea Brooks is Brooks hates Chrysola love is that is that the truth that's what I'm learning here today

how are you learning this the kindest sweetest most gentle loving man people love Brooks of course he's just he never is in slack he's just in slack right now hammering Chris.

Hammering Chris Oliva. He just threw another one out there. He says he likes players who can get 20 fantasy points because Chris Oliva. Oh, I love it. Never done it in 39 games. That says something. You know who has? Rashid Shaheed.

Tell you that. Oh, man. All right. Man. Go get him, Brooks. Yeah, bury him under the ice. The most fire I've ever seen out of Brooks is anti-Cris-O-Lave. That's someone who's had Chris Olive before.

I promise. Oh, that's probably true. Yeah, let's, uh, let's, move it on. I'm jumping in. All right, Mike. I got a running back. He plays for the New England Patriots.

There's two of them that we need to talk about. Which one am I going to go? This will be a clue. Fire. It ain't Ramandre Stevenson. That bum? We're talking about Trayvion Henderson, the absolute electric. Trayvion Henderson.

This guy, second round pick, you know, absolutely dominated at Ohio State. He went 38th overall. to this situation. We hope for the Chicago Bears, but we did not get there. Yeah, 38 overall was a disappointment to everybody. It was just based off of, we thought we could get him in the top 32, but would put him in the first round. 38 overall, though, is still a really high pick for a running back.

He could have come out two years ago in 2024, and he would have been the first running back selected easily. Unfortunately for us for that year, you know, NIL has changed some things because our boy Henderson was getting that, Chipotle money. I don't know if you guys know that. Look, if I'm in college and I'm getting paid by Chipotle, okay, maybe I'm going to stay in. But look, explosive plays of 10 or more yards, 24%. That's number one in this class. He, the, we talked about, you know, that steady drumbeat that you want to hear out of training camp. And it, it has been steady and it has been getting really loud lately, especially highlighting how good he is in the receiving game. And that is a, it that can keep the rookie off the field is their work in the passing game. Maybe they're not the best pass catcher. Maybe they're not

the best pass blocker. Henderson is tremendous at both of those things. And ball security I mean, him versus Remandre it is night and day. Last year, Ramandre, 3.87 yards per carry. Fumbled seven times the most by any non-quarterback. We're already getting

reports of more fumbling issues from Ramandre coming out of camp. I think that he takes over sooner than later and it's a rookie running back who was drafted in the second round of the NFL draft that's a good bet for fantasy football since 2011 we looked at the first six rounds of redraft

we got 32 rookie running backs and not counting the guys who got injured quickly into the season but look 60% of them exceed their ADP expectation meaning they outplay what you're drafting them to give you. And then if you look at those rookie running backs who saw two and a half or more targets per game,

80% hit rate on passing their ADP expectation and look, two and a half targets for Trayvion Henderson, that should be absolutely no problem. We looked at Josh McDaniels as a play caller. This guy just running back target percentage is always way up there. And I know that he played with the goat, Tom Brady, who was more of a. statue guy loved to check it down to

his running back, but even years without Tom Brady, you know, a near 30% target percentage going to the running back, 21, 20%, and we're looking at only full seasons of McDaniels as a play caller. The story with Trayvion and Henderson that I think is interesting, and I don't know if you saw this, Mike, but there

was a couple of the reporters covering the Patriots beat in camp and they're talking about the utilization of players. One thing that stood out was that Trayvion Henderson, they said, had significantly more downfield. catches in camp than Stefan Diggs. They said from a utilization

standpoint in the offense. It makes sense because Henderson actually has juice and burst. Like athletically we can often overemphasize athleticism when it comes to the running back position. You know like that's those are traits that you really have to have for the tight end

and running backs can be not as athletic but his is just it's off the charts, a 95th percentile for his explosive score because that's his vertical and bra jump. That's the initial get off the line. And you go back to his film in Ohio. Like he can go downfield and make spectacular catches.

I think it's an easier argument for me to get on board with him as a fire pick when you focus on the receiving work and the receiving game in general. Because, you know, the most recent depth chart reports from New England, you know, Mike Rable, he's going to be the veteran first guy. He's going to, he's got, you know, remote. Andre is going to get his work. Romandre's lost some weight. I think he was down 10 pounds. And then Antonio Gibson was even getting work ahead of Trayvon Henderson out of the backfield.

Yeah, I get that. That will take more time to do the depth chart jump, I think, with Mike Vrable and with the team. And there's also been some talk of the offensive line really struggling. Even though we know they invested at four overall and made the offensive line a priority, it's been struggling so far in camp. But you start talking about the versatility factor. you start talking about, look, when you break down the wide receiver room, like, you know, Demaria Douglas probably making the most strides in camp,

Spondiggs, older, the other guys are not hyper-reliable players. So you look at Trayvion and Henderson as a weapon in that regard. It gets me more excited when I see that he's getting downfield targets because he's the guy in space that could do a lot with it. Yes, he can. And this is, you know, the Patriots, when we did our divisional breakdowns, their projected win total was pretty shocking. What was

were we eight and a half? Kyle, do you remember that one off the top of your head? Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, it was eight and a half. Eight and a half. Like this is, you know, the, the, the bookies are saying this is going to be a solid team. Maybe that's not a playoff team, but that's a, that's a good amount of wins. That's going to be points on the board. I still don't get it. I don't, I don't get it. I wonder,

I guess if New England was sitting in the, uh, the NFC North, I don't think they're at eight and a half, but... No, for sure. This is as much a schedule blessing for them as anything else. Yeah, I do think, I think that the dolphins may be bad. Sure. I think that could be, that could be a team that they pass in the division for sure. But Henderson is just, I know, yes, look, Vrable, veteran first, that stuff will happen right now,

but it's a fantasy football. It's like Wenderson is he going to take over. That's what we want to know. And it's, look, and he's not expensive in drafts. What? I missed it. He switched his own joke, but I didn't hear it. I plowed over it.

Wait, well, hold on. I want to hear it. No, no, no, no. No, you can check the tape later. It's bad. You know, the excitement for Omerian Hampton. He's going to, Hampton's going to jump into, like, third round, probably even late second round of the excitement for him.

Henderson's chilling right now is RB-24. He will be better than the RB 24. He will take over this job. And I think he will be, if not the one, at least the 1A sooner than later. What round is he going? The sixth round. Sixth round? That is an easy selection for me.

All right. Jason, your turn to select either an ice or a fire player. Well, I'm not going to tell you what it is yet. I'm going to talk about Sam Leporta. A young tight end on a great offense. Former tight-in-one. Who has been the tight-in one going into year three. So obviously, great player, great team, great offense.

Great pick. Ice. No. No. Terrible pick. No. No. No.

Sam Leporta is a good player. He is on a good offense, and he will be fine in fantasy. In fact, I am the highest ranked of the three of us on Sam Leporta. He's my tight-in-five. I project him to finish as the tight-in-five. and five. That is a terrible pick where he's going. This is about opportunity cost.

We talked about him a lot yesterday when I found out you were doing this. Yeah, this is, the issue here is one of fantasy football game strategy. This isn't really a take on Sam Leporta. Yeah, it emotionally bothers me that he's an ice for you. Sure, yeah. Because of my respect

for the player. And I get it. So if you want to just say, my ice pick is fifth round tight ends. Because if Sam Leporta were to slip to the seventh in your league. Dude, I will take him. This is about what you're giving up and what you're getting to give up something good. So in the fifth round. Got a little loss on that. Yeah, don't worry about it. You got lost. Get, no. I was right there. Here's a thing. Right now, Sam Laporte is going in the fifth round. The players that you are not taking at running back

and wide receiver. Trayvion and Henderson. Sure. You're taking him ahead of Trayvian Henderson. You're taking him ahead of Joe Mixon and James Connor. These are important fantasy. I mean, James Connor is, you know, he was a top 10 running back over Chuba Hubbard, who was very good. The D.K. Metcalf, Cortland Sutton, Devante Smith. These are players we know are good and will be important on fantasy rosters. Later in the ninth round, there are tight ends that are not that different than Sam Laporta. Do I have Sam Laporta ranked ahead? head of most of the head of Evan Ingram? Yeah. Ahead of David Nojoku. I can't remember ahead or not. But there are tight ends going, you know, you could take shots on Loveland and

Tyler Warren later. Go look at the value scout tool that I just posted in there because we just released this. It has our true value based on our rankings. Oh, how funny. And I guess this is true. There is no, there is no player that we have a bigger differential in what we view is their true value in the draft and where their average draft position is then Sam Laporta. We have a differential of 38 picks. It feels so... For Sam Laporta.

It feels bad because Sam Laporta is good. This isn't an anti-Sam Laporta take. This is a fantasy scoring take. Or fantasy reality situation. The difference in points between Sam Laporta and David Najoku is not that much. In fact, last year

David Najoku outscored Sam Leporta. Two years go when Leporta was the number one tight end. He's, you know, you can't do better. He was 11.5 fantasy points. Like, David Ojoku last year was 10.6. The gap isn't that big. Think about what the gap is between guys going where you're taking Nogu, Travis E.T.N.

Or James Connor. Like, one of those is a player no one wants and one is going to be an important every start. You're saying the exchange for Loporta right now would be James Connor. Exactly. But the exchange for in the eighth round. is an ETN, which is either kind of indifferent about it. Here's the players I'm giving up. I'm giving up Najee Harris or Travis E.T.N. I'm giving up Cooper Cup. I'm giving up guys that... Just do the trade. Do the pretend trade.

Would you rather have David Nogoku and James Connor? And James Connor or Sam Leporta and Travis E.T. Yeah, that's a no-brainer. This is where, and honestly, Hawkinson should be kind of in the same. When they drop a couple more rounds and you have the tier breaks at running back and wide receiver where you're starting to go to like, I don't know, there's a lot. of red, yellow flags. I don't really love these wide receivers and running backs. Scoop up the good tight ends that you know are good. I know Sam LaPorte is going to be good, but I also know that good at tight end does, it's not a difference maker. It's not winning you championships. And in fact, a lot of times you make more points. You score more points. You make them in the laboratory. You score more points by streaming against good tight in matchups.

Right. Playing guys off of waivers than just week and week out. Then being locked into LaPorta. Yeah, exactly. Every single way. No, it's a, it's a very, It's difficult to accept. I promise all the listeners will only hear that you hate him. Oh, for sure. And this stat, I think, is where it's really important. Jay, you were talking about just fifth round tight ends. 39 tight ends drafted from rounds five through seven over the last decade.

And what they're expected to score, you know, ADP expectation, we're talking at 87% whiff rate on those picks. They're usually the worst. Middle round tight ends are just not. it's like yeah one one every once in a while it's going to sneak through

and be an awesome pick him it keeps setting the trap for us the like the bear trap just gets opened every single year because one of them goes through and then we our leg gets stuck and now we have these tight ends

who are not helping us are the bear traps just out of curiosity are they just sit there with like no bait or is there like an apple in there or something? No I think there's no bait

it's covered it's covered with like leaves? Yeah okay you don't want to I was just trying to think of the analysis You're not wanting to get the head. This isn't a rat trap.

Like, hey, come eat this apple. Yeah, no, you don't want the bear's head. Well, I think you would, but I don't know that that's the easiest thing to do. There's four legs, much easier to get a leg. What are we doing with the bear traps? Is that a thing still? They exist. Do we go for the bears?

I don't think we set them. Okay. Like, we don't set them? I don't think. As Americans? Yeah, correct. Okay. Not just the three of us.

I'm very confident. The three of us don't. No longer set bear traps. Plenty of bear traps. though in fantasy. Yes, in the fifth, the seventh round at the tight end position. All right, we are going to take a quick break and come back. We each have another

player to talk about on this edition of Ice and Fire. Well, we know the Foot Clan is wise. They are sharp. And if those things are true, then they probably know by process of elimination that all I have left is a fire pick, which is

going to surprise some people this is this is an individual show with our own individual takes interesting i didn't know that that was going to be the position that you took on my fire pick jackson smith and jigba fire this has not been a place um this has not been where i've been about jason in in years past and i have really turned a corner this off season on my expectation and excitement for a player that looking on sleeper he's a third round pick but on ESPN you know this is what the platform um the value tool and our ADP platform comparison tool do like on ESPN he's a fourth round pick he's a late third on Yahoo right now late third on underdog I am the highest of our team here now where I have him inside the top 10 at the position but the transition has really happened in part because um What I believe about J.S.N.'s talent, you know, coming into the league, it was very, very slow going. Even last year, halfway through, it was slow going. And then you started to see a utilization for JSN that was much more significant down the field. Part of the question marks that you've brought up, Mike, you know, is he playing the slot? Is Cooper Cup playing the slot? Both of these guys.

Look, from what I see on film, JSN is very, very capable of being an excellent outside wide receiver. and I think they're going to give in that opportunity, which means more downfield targets. We have not traditionally looked at slot-wide receivers with the same fantasy upside that we look at outside wide receivers. But you're talking about a 23-year-old player. I mean, he's one of six in the history of the NFL with a hundred-catch season before turning 23.

This is a young, talented player, and I don't want to fall into the same trap that we did last year with Sam Darnold and an off-season narrative that this guy couldn't support. an elite wide receiver option. I mean, Jason just talked about Cooper Cup. He's going in the eighth, ninth round of drafts. You've got off-season talk.

Maybe, you know, Tori Horton's going to be a valuable player on this roster. We all know this story. You talk about target market share. You talk about total volume in the offense. And you talk about talent, and Jason meets all of those markers. Like, you look at players that could be eligible to move up into the upper echelon at the position. And I am on board with, J.S. in this year. I think he's going to move

around the formation a lot. We've already got, I mean, we haven't talked about it. We should have. I don't know why I've let it been buried, but Kenneth Walker's hurt again. I mean, Kenneth Walker is resting. He's resting, his bones and and his tendons and his

were you going to say his meat, Jason? Were you going to say it's me? I would never. He will be so rested and recovered for week one. Three practices missed already. Just a little tuckered out. At least the average 3.7 a carry last year. He's resting.

Yeah, he rested on the field. That's the problem. I know. That's why he's going to be so ready. He is so rested for year four. He is so... You know, he's taking those first three years and rested. Yeah, I mean, this is the number one target by a wide margin.

He absolutely dominated it over the second half of the year last year. You saw it. And I don't think that we should take the ambiguity of a quarterback change and not recognized, look, no more Tyler Lockett, no more D.K. McCaff, right? Like, no more Noah fan. Yeah, maybe Oroyo is going to be relevant in this offense, but the target totals for JSN are going to be out of control. And I

don't think we were very generous to the Seattle offense when we did our divisional breakdown. I stand by it. Yeah, and that's fine. That's fine. But, I mean, this is, this is a player that I think could, like, when we saw, when you're looking for that breakout, and the career years you got out of like when cd lamb was the number one overall wide receiver this was he was jason's age when jefferson did it he was jason's age it when when james did it like this is the prime time for the elite season for jason and i i just think maybe we're undervaluing that in terms of can he finish a top three four player i actually think he can

i actually think jason could do that uh yeah i mean it would take sam darnald to have truly leveled up and not just been a product of the Vikings, you know, system and weapons last year. Obviously, if Sam Donald does, Baker era, if Sam Donald does this year what he did last year, he could support JSN to be a top five guy. I've got JSN as a top 15 wide receiver. I like a lot of what you're saying. I think he is talented. But I do have more hesitations on the office. I think they want to run the ball. I know it would be tough to persuade both of you guys. Yeah, I mean, I'm not out on him. Just remember, remember this moment. And I'm with Jason. I'm not out, but I have him at wide receiver 15 right now.

He's going as wide receiver 12. So that just that says to me, I will have no shares of JSN because I'm not willing to go slightly early and he's not going to make it late enough where I'm okay with taking on the risk. The variables to me are a ton of not, I mean, Sam Darnold at the tippy, tippy top,

but Sam Darnold with a bad offensive line with a scheme that they want to be. really run heavy, and then the Cooper Cup, JSN, how is that going to work out? It's not that it can't. It's just the, though that's enough to make me just go to a different player. Yeah, the kind of parallel you'd want to look at for hopes and dreams for JSN is Amun Ra as a rookie, 77% of the time in the slot, 21% of the timeout wide, that moved to 6040, then it moved to basically 5547. And then last year was like 55. 50 for Amara, inside, outside, all over the place, go to target, and everything you

camp, like, the amount of targets that Jason is going to get this year, that's what convinces me of this, of this pick. So it's going to be a very interesting one. I was not on board early in the off season. I've come full circle. To follow up on, like, if a player is a full-time slot player, that's when things are difficult. It's a, like, the slot can be very advantageous.

If you have a good offensive coordinator, that's when you're moving. guys around and getting the mismatch but that's so it's like when they go to two wide you're on the outside and then when they go to three sometimes you're on the outside sometimes you're you're in the slot like that is okay that that actually gives you the magical fantasy years like the Julio Jones when when he's popping off back in the day it was because he was moving all over the field and all over the formation so if they're doing that with JSN that would really really help the baseline yep all right I'll uh I'll leave it there I do think he is you know you try to identify players that could finish, you know,

inside the top five, I do think he's one of those guys. All right, I'm going to jump in with my ice pick and he, it's not that this player necessarily has a really high ADP, but they are being drafted right now on Sleeper in the seventh round. And

the way that I'm looking at it, that is just taking your pick and, well, setting on a fire, but I have freezing it? Putting it on ice. Yeah, okay. Ice. It's Tyrone Tracy, Jr., running back current starting running back of the New York Giants last year was it was great it was great for Tracy

he was a fifth rounder in 17 games he finished as the running back 25 was I mean he became the focal point of of the offense with 192 carries 55 targets thank you I don't have the button you know like week five running back from week five on he was the running back 15 here is the downside though the Giants are they will if they would shock me

like teams can go from bad to good I don't think that the Giants are going to be making that type of a jump this year this team is going to be on red alert the entirety of the season from a quarterback change to a coach is being fired dable has to be on the hottest of hot seats tough division right now in a really hard

division and last year year talking like volume got him there but efficiency 39th out of 44 qualified running backs and rush success rate only 30% of his runs went for five or more yards that's 41st out of 47 the offensive line is projected to be even worse and it's the comp to me then the worst part is the competition there's so many variables just for this team but then cam scadaboo who he did fall into the fourth round but i think that cam scataboo is just a much better player than Tyrone Tracy, especially in the receiving game. Yes, Scatibu is hurt at the moment, but, and the, there is, there has been some positive buzz out here about Tyrone Tracy

from the same source last year who was giving you really positive vibes right before the season starts that Devon Singletary is locked in and he's going to be the guy, which to the credit of that report. He did start that way. Singletary did start is that and then he got hurt and then they We're like, nah, yeah, good enough. We'll move on to Tyrone Tracy. I've struggled to find people excited about Tyrone Tracy this offseason. But he gets drafted in a place. But I don't know why that is because he was very exciting in the middle of last year.

He was. He was. I remember I traded. Is it all Camp Scataboo? To me, Camp Scadaboo is a huge part of it. But then it's just the what could happen to this team. What if I told you Scataboo wasn't playing? Like, would you have been excited about Tyrone Tras?

I would be, yes, I wouldn't be excited. I would be fine taking him here as a later round running back, but I think that him holding on to that amount of volume, you know, almost 200 carries and those 55 targets, that's not going to happen with Scataboo. He has gone below ADP

in all five footballers' mocks this offseason. So, good for us. At least here in the building, the excitement to draft him is not permeated into any sort of higher ADP. But what I'm doing with this saying is I'm not just unexcited to draft him.

I think it is a completely wasted pick. Just useless. And even the worst kind of those first few weeks will probably be Tyrone Tracy running the backfield and your confidence will grow in this player. And then it will vanish and you will get maybe a couple weeks out of him. And those weeks, by the way. Do you worry at all about the report coming out saying that Tyrone Tracy is,

he's like the guy's not a big competition? That's what I was saying. That was the source who told. told us that Devin Singletary was for sure locked into 80% of the snaps last year. They have the hardest strength to schedule in the entire NFL. That is the other point. Let's say it starts. Tracy's the guy to

at the beginning of the year. Washington, Dallas, Kansas City, the Chargers. If they can make it to week five, then he gets a plus matchup against the Saints. Philly, Denver, Philly, 49ers. Like this, this is, they got done

dirty by the NFL. If you're bad, you're running back fantasy points are bad. That's the equation that has gone. I mean, you go back to 2018, the worst team in the league, not saying they will be. I think their defense is good enough for them not to be the worst team. But if you're a bad team, you're running back fantasy points are 25th or lower. And most of the time it's 29, 30, 31, 32. You don't produce on the ground.

Ironically, the one place that you are okay being a running back on a bad team is if you're the past catching back, which Tyroneau-Tracy did catch passes last year. But that is also a specialty of Cam Scataboo. so when he comes back, and even in the report saying that that was, you know, that it's Tyrone Tracy's job right now, they were like, they saw Camp Scataboo as the past catching back, which if you're down, that's probably who you want. All right, Jason, I bet you have a fire player. I'm not going to reveal that yet. I will say this.

We come in and, you know, we pick our guys. We don't always know who else we're going to be talking about. It is surprising that we have two fire picks from the New England Patriots. But here we are. I'm going to talk about. What are we doing? You guys are crazy, man. What could go wrong?

I'm going to talk about quarterback Drake May. Fire. Drake May, very undervalued in drafts right now. He's never been as sexy as Caleb Williams. You know, he was the third overall pick in the 2024 draft. That is usually incredible draft capital. Yet he was the third quarterback drafted. It worked incredible for my guy, Traylings.

Right, yeah. Drake May didn't start until week six last year They wanted to bring him along slowly Especially because of how bad that offensive line was They put Jacobi Brissette out there To just become beef brisket Behind that offensive line But when he took over from weeks six through 16

He was playing pretty well He scored more than Kyler Murray And more than Jordan loved Despite the fact that he was throwing to absolutely no one He was throwing a booty A lot As a passer he actually completed 67 percent of his passes. That's a very good number for a rookie, especially in his situation.

Here's, I think, a really neat stat to show what I saw on film that had me excited and believing, like, I think he's good. Among 31 qualifying rookie quarterbacks over the last decade, Jaden Daniels ranked second in dropback success rate. Drake May was fourth. Drake May played good ball. And the best part is he runs the football. He runs a lot. He was on pace for 632 rushing yards. He's one of only eight quarterbacks since the year 2000 to rush for 30 plus yards a game as a rookie. The others are, you know, Robert Griffin, Josh Allen, Jaden Daniels, Cam Newton, Justin Fields. Like there are...

It's a good fantasy list to be on. These are great. Drake may had 45 total scrambles last year. That was one less than Lamar Jackson, and he didn't start until week six. So we've got the running game there. We've got the passing game looking good. They spent a top pick on an offensive lineman. They don't have a great offensive line, but I think their left tackle is fixed.

And if you look, over the last decade, we've had 50 quarterbacks to start at least 12 games and hit 75 plus rush attempts, which we all independently have him statted for more than that. Those quarterbacks average 20.6 fantasy points per game. 82% of them finishes a top 12 quarterback. And now you've got an improved weapon core. I mean, we've got Trayvion Henderson out of the backfield. Great at catching the ball. And Josh McDaniels throws to the running back.

So if you can get some cheap yards for Drake May out of the backfield, going to Trayon, that'd be nice. Yeah. You added Stefan Diggs, obviously older, but still really valuable. He's going to be in the right place at the right time. He's going to catch the ball if you put it near his hands. DeMario Douglas would have been my undrafted gym, but you told me I can't name another Patriot on the show. Yes, that's true. Kyle Williams, they spent the third round pick on,

a much needed kind of outside speed wide receiver to Mario Douglas, who you like, now he gets to like not have to be the main guy when he's just a slot. He's a good slot receiver. So I think they've actually got a core here that can move the ball that can get down and score touchdowns. Like we brought it up, they're actually projected to win games this year, eight and a half. And I just look at the ADP of these quarterbacks, who you could take late that is a rushing mobile quarterback that might level up. There's a lot of ways it could happen for Drake May. He's a good quarterback. He runs the ball.

He's got an improved situation, and he's going into year two, and he costs you nothing. So he can even be a second quarterback you draft. Yeah, we've got him. I think our true value on him is in the 10th round, and he's going in the middle to late 11th round. So if you want to take him a round early to get your shot at it, it's definitely affordable. All right, that does it for ice and fire. We've got wide receiver ranking shows coming up.

We've got another mock draft episode. We've got our top 10 tips and tricks episode coming up. We've got the My Guys for 2025, mercy, which is always an exciting and fun show to do. We've got to lock in those three My Guys, gentlemen, and the time is coming soon. All right, that is it for today, but guess what? We're back tomorrow. Make sure you subscribe, follow the show on whatever podcast app you are using or over on YouTube. If you've got a free minute and you want to help us out, that'd be sweet.

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And the Ultimate Draft Kit available at Ultimate DraftCid.com. That'll do it. Ice and fire in the books. More to come. Take care. Goodbye. Thank you for listening to another episode of the fantasy footballers podcast. Join our fantasy football community on join thefoot.com.

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