Fin vs History - Can You Separate The Fart From The Fartist? (With Bebe Cave) | Great Artists: Picasso

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

Picasso's ideal woman? Goddess in the streets, doormat in the sheets. Great Artists (Part Two) This episode of Fin vs History is brought to you by Surfshark. Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code FVH for an extra 4 months at https://surfshark.com/fvh The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.   For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon  ⁠⁠⁠patreon.com/fintaylor⁠⁠  Chapters: 00:00 - The Ski Trip 05:56 - Goddesses And Doormats 12:38- Sucking C*ck 18:55 - Cumbuckets 22:19 - Awoo!! 25:26 - Fat Elvis 29:44 - Gouge Their Eyes Out 34:22 - He Loved It 41:39 - It’s Like Love Island 45:04 - Successfully Yeah 50:01 - Italy Is A Wet Suit  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to Finn versus History. I'm joined by Horatio Gould. Hello. And Mrs. Horatio Gould. There it is. BBK. Look at this for the first time. Second time.

Second time, what? Second time she's been on the pod? Yes, but it's the first time that you've had a repeat guest. Yes. And it's the first time that you've had a guest that's engaged to one of the hosts. This is the first time we've had. First of many. To announce.

Yes. We're going to, Henry the 8th. We're going to become bloated and just have a sort of carousel. Victoria's been on twice. This is the first female guest we've had on. wise. Yes. A second BB Cave has hit the podcast. Yes, a second Horatio Gaw has hit the podcast. Also, I like the idea that you're here to announce your engagement and the podcast has

essentially become the back pages of the time. Yes. Where high-owning individuals announce their engagements. Yeah. It is really convenient timing, actually. I'll make sure to hold my microphone like this. Just to get the ring in. Was the last time you saw Charlie skiing pretty much?

No. Yeah. Because it's good to have a first-hand account. of um yes yes we should have a sort of do you want to explain what happened if you're really don't i don't just from your perspective just set the scene i appreciate you don't make me do that no that's quite it's quite what i'll say about stepan bartler's podcast is he kind of eases the trauma out and you've just kind of like a like a fucking truck driven into it i was doing my least favorite thing which is be gross oh oh love talk about our bad's this shit's wearing on and that's essentially

what you've done i knew i shouldn't have told you i knew that you were commoditify you're white you're white as a and you're saying on the landing it was one of the worst spells I've ever smart in the life. You said that's unfair. You said that I heard him furiously flushing, I believe. It was only because it happened two days in a row

when I thought he might be something genuinely wrong. So was it on the second day that you... It was on the second day that I thought and it... God bless you for buttoning out for a day. That's nice of you. It was when I thought maybe

there was something wrong with the drainage and then it was the second time hearing the flushes from upstairs. I just thought to myself like that really is so it's so severe that I wonder if it's up, if it's we're all going to get sick. Do you know what I mean? I had to.

Yeah. Did it change it the fact that for lunch you saw him ate, eat a giant steak tartar. He literally like he was eating a dog's tin and it was the most revolting plate of food I've ever seen in my life. No knife and fork in my head. No knife and pork just.

And it's, you know, The thing is when you stay with people for the first time, even if you know them quite well, there is a real kind of, there's an intimacy to it. There's intimacy to it. I saw him wandering around in boxes and a little vest. We see that here in the office. Doesn't really anything.

I also, it's also because, oh, Charlie, I don't want to embarrass it. Go ahead. It was obviously because it was, it was, it was, it was, we were playing cards. And it was, I went down to the basin to, to get some fizzy water, and it was in both, but I was the bathroom. and so I knew it was you.

Because the thing is, it was because we'd been playing cards today. I'd go in there to fart. Where'd you go to fart? To the toilet. No, I think that's fine. Because it was such a recognisable sense. It was a very distinctive busk.

And he realised it must have been you then. Because it was like, I've seen you go downstairs a few times you're in the chord games. And I wondered what was going on there. So today we're talking about Pavlo. I should just say that, but I would like to add that,

to add that as a link I think Picasso obviously I think you were shitting on the bowl and that's a quite Picasso-esque way I think it looked like an actual poo I think you were just kind of spreading I'm really sorry Charlie I know you didn't want to talk about that absolutely Picasso-esque shits in the toilet of the Airbnb

that you guys were staying in but in a way it's kind of interesting because if we're thinking about the themes of the episode and you know the relationships that people have what is it you know what is moral to include an art can you include every aspect of somebody's life can you... What is moral to conclude in the toilet? No, no, no, I mean, you know,

you decided to share this intimate detail of Charlie's because you knew that it was going to be beneficial for your art. He benefits from it in a way too because it's funny. But art is it pretty? I don't think I'm pretty. Not being faced up to the truth. That's not what I thought you were going to say. I thought you're going to say it's interesting as to how much you can romanticise someone who is, uh, you know, public facing. Yes. Yeah. Quite fun. Yeah. Or like, entertaining. But actually the reality to live with them very, very difficult. man. Exactly.

But also maybe the hangover of sharing so much. Yes. And I think Charlie obviously shares a really wonderful,

whimsical side of himself. Is it whimsical? I think so. I was a paedophile for a year. Oh, what a whimsical waif

back there. I think he's a fucking nonce for a year. Well, I think that it comes... It comes with cons, doesn't it?

You know? Yeah. So maybe the... The Charlie... Surviving Charlie Milner when that documentary comes out, you can have a talking hair. I'm going to have to be one of those people that shuffles the microphones.

How much can you separate the fart from the fartist? I'm really sorry, Charlie. No, no, it's, we brought it up. Now, we brought Mrs. Horatio Gould on the show. And in my head, I'm saying it, you know how when we were on tour in Bristol and that guy in Bristol? What's your name? And he went, yep, and you're staying with Mr. Horatio Gorg. He was like a travel lodge in Bristol.

You completely had never seen anything like it before. And I understand it's not a normal name, but to go Japanese and he goes, that's how I'm, that's now I now think about it. Ms. Harashio, because you're, I mean,

you're quite an art, you're quite an arty couple, I suppose now, aren't you? You often say this is probably the sort of thing your misses wears and it'll be like, like a mad,

hippie flower dress. Yeah, yeah, healing feels. Because Amanda's quite, she's quite earthy and real. She's a bloke, really. she's not intending the star sign stuff astrology whereas baby you're now that the relationship's more

locked down i feel you're kind of going quite far that way i think so maybe because i feel more comfortable that you won't uh yeah because at the beginning you used to laugh about star signs and said it was only just but now i've recently seen you in the middle of the night getting pieces of paper and out the window you rip it up in front of the moon uh which is pretty like horror film sort of stuff, exorcist sort of stuff. Really, you throw paper at the moon? No. It's a full moon ritual.

I don't even dream at night. I'm just asleep. Look, it's a full moon ritual and, you know, it's the same thing as manifesting. It's the same thing as, you know, tech bros fucking waking up at six in the morning and, I don't know, going to the gym as a ritual. It's just, it's ways that human beings can pop mentalize big feelings and try and, you know, be happy. Yeah, but you say you're getting more hippie-ish. I would say that... You said you're going to end up as a fat witch, is what you said.

Yeah, I did do that. Her words. I do think probably, my future is that I will be a fat witch at some kind of big stone. I think I will be traveling to see a big stone. Yeah. To recap, right, in the last episode we dealt with Vincent Van Gogh, comprehensively. We never have to talk about them again. He was an insane Dutch man who killed himself eventually, not for want to trying.

And died in poverty. He was a fucking nightmare. It's a fucking nightmare. Yeah. Toughest hang. Very tough hang. Difficult pint. And yet because his sister-in-law was sort of fanatically promotes his artwork after death,

he becomes this archetype of a tortured artist. And he's sort of this beginning of can you separate the art and all that. Charlie's a tortured fartist. Yes, torture fartist. Now, today we're going to get into Pablo Picasso. I'd say these are the two biggest names in art. Yes, definitely. Picasso.

Now, I'm into Picasso. But you just like his very. view on young women. I like the man. I like the things he did as a man. The art, take it or leave it. Yeah. But how he lived his life is a template for us all. Yeah. The United States is the weirdest country in the world right now. And it doesn't make any sense to anyone. No, it doesn't, but I want to make it a bit less confusing. Oh, I do. Good. Well, our podcast can help. It's called American Friction, and it's out every Monday and Friday. We discuss all the big news from across the pond and explain it all with world leading experts.

That's American Friction. Listen, right now, wherever you get your podcasts, right now. American Friction! Picasso once said of women, there are two types of women. You're always loving this. Goddesses and door mats. You know what's that saying? You want to be a gentleman in the street.

and a what's the thing I'm only a goddess in the street and a dormant in the sheets because he has had his legacy

is tarred with accusations of alleged alleged alleged a misogyny and abuse but he's also

you know separate to that or in twine with that probably the most recognizable artistic style of the 20th century there is a citron

called Picasso right yes there is and like that you how how much many other artists could be named after a car.

Hitler, I guess. You wouldn't call it Citron Hitler. Citron Hitler. The golf Hitler, Bolshevier and Hitler. But that's true, actually. You're really bridging the gap there from gay to straight, aren't you? Naming a car after an artist. But I guess Picasso bridges into the commercial age, right?

Yes, you're right. So the modern idea of branding, near the end of his life, he kind of reaches that zone where you can become distilled into a brand. I guess Van Gogh has been, but not anything to do with him. Obviously, he likes impressionism of Van Gogh. Baby, what's your kind of artistic taste? Well, I really have a big interest in the pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood. We'll talk about on the Patreon.

Which you can talk about on Patreon. I think that my view towards art is, especially if you're somebody that entertains ideas of wanting to be an artist or a painter or something like that, if you actually go to art school, it turns out you have to learn about all the different kinds of disciplines. And when I was 20 and kind of confused with what I was going to do with my life, I vaguely thought I might go to art school and realize that it's not all just pretty pictures of like girls smelling flowers in the gods.

And that's actually mostly the picture that I like. Girl-smelling flowers. I very much am interested in sort of like Victorian, romantic. Sorry, because that's a girl-smelling flowers in the garden that is an escape from your holiday with Charlie, which is girls smelling shit in an Airbnb. I like... You know, that's what art's about, isn't it? It's escapism.

It is. That's what I was going to say. I like art that is really whimsical and dreamlike and feminine and, and, you know, and rather than the masculine, visceral reality that you inhabit. Truly, truly. Picasso is born in Malaga, on the 25th of October 1881. Oh, she's in Malaga. Bibi, would you like to place this? You're aware of our placing system by now.

She's not great with dates. Okay, fuck you. Sorry. I'm going to say he was born in 1881, which is around 40 years after Queen Victoria has been made. made the queen. Lovely. And it's

just before... Anything. Pick anything. Of the Queen Victoria has been made the Queen. But it's before... But it's before King Edward has made the King.

Boom. Boom. That's good. Is that good? Sorry, guys. I'm really not going to dates. That's fine. That's fine.

It's just a history podcast. I'm not good with this. Should we do some drawing? Because it's an art episode. That's a good idea. Why don't you draw BB? You know what? We'll all draw throughout the episode. No, no, no. Can you draw the scene of BB on the kind of platform smelling your shit for the first time? Okay, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, just try and recreate. Just like it's fucking engaged me not. No, no, no, no, no, but no, no, it's an artistic, it's a really. No, I'm reclaiming it. It's an interesting moment. I think, I think all of us should draw throughout the episodes at different times. And so we get a sense of the different expressionisms that we all use. So Picasso is born in it.

in October 1881, so weak was he at birth that the midwife thought he was a stillborn. Right. And supposedly the myth goes, an uncle blows cigar smoke into Picasso's face and he wakes up and then starts breathing. That's a good uncle. That's a great uncle.

Yeah, sounds like your dad. It's a terrific uncle. So this is him very weak as a boy, but a loving mother and an artist father who specialised in drawing pigeons. So basically an early nephew baby. He's a fucking pigeon motherer. Yeah.

So supposedly, like, at the age of kind of toddler, my kid's age, he's drawing some things that adult artists are already. Apparently his first word was pencil. Really? That shows you. In English. I imagine. Penhian.

No, sorry, I meant so much. So apparently, like, as a kid, he's drawing things that adult artists are like, whoa, I can't even do that. Yes. He's a prodigy. He's a prodigy. I mean, the number one thing about Picasso, probably where you start really respect him is how good at traditional art he was as a teenager, right?

Yes. He could do it photo realist to paintings in his sleep. So he's chosen to make it look like a fucking drop trifle. Picasso did a painting age 13 that it made his dad found never to paint again. We saw that in real life, her issue. We did. Yeah. So this is the painting we're getting up now?

He painted this one at 15 years old. Yeah. So he goes to all these arts schools, but basically he then spends his whole career kind of unlearning all the deconstructing. Yeah. Because he becomes so bored of being so perfect. Mm. Which is quite like, all right. mate.

Yeah. Quote, it took me four years to paint that Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child. Pablo, you nailed it. Would you say the Berlin facial aesthetic is quite Picasso? 100%?

You take a normal face. Yeah. How do I make it? It's Picasso. I'm going to put a piercing on my eyebrow. I'm going to cut my hair in a stupid way. That's deliberately bad. Because that's how confident I am.

Or you're a two, and in disgusting. because the hot people are dressing the same as twos. It's not a disguise, though. It's not disguise. It's going on owning being a two. I'm looking even uglier. It's going to make you think that I'm...

It makes you think I'm not ugly because it makes you think I've made myself ugly. And actually, if I was trying to be looked fit, I'd still look ugly. That's what they're thinking. They're sneaky and they should be shot. But do you think that it's something interesting about genius that if you do become so masterful so early on

that everything just does become boring, Do you think it leads to sort of this sense of rebellion as a teenager? You almost don't want your child to be too good at things, too smart, in case they get so bored that they end up having to become this. Pedophile. Crazy man. What's interesting about Picasso, though, is that that's not, it's quite a rare journey that someone is so perfect and so amazing as a kid,

that they then become avant-garde and they invent a whole new style. normally they just become like a child actor they get bored of it and just go to the head McCauley Colkin overdose and that's it right they get bought is this sort of that's their life but that's like the art form that he's creating he has total control over he

he's the one that can put his art out there he has all the authority child actors become fucked up because they stop getting picked there's another person above them that is the one that decides if they're going to I think the reason why an artist is able to grow in this way is because they are

truly the like the director of their own existing. Why are you sniggering? Why? I don't want to talk about the podcast so I don't know how good podcast you'll be but Charlie Wright wrote Picasso-like-A-Nor question like,

fine, that's just a normal Charlie search. But then I saw that I was like, oh, for fuck, so I looked up in the way that Charlie was looking at me like, just waited for me. Picasso-like-A-Nor like, so pleased with yourself.

Do you think what if you, when you were a child, what would be the thing that you were best at that would have made your father go, okay, I'm never going to do that thing anymore because my son is so good at it. Because it's sucking cock. Come on.

Wait, you saw you sucking cocking. I'm not going to do that. I can't do that again. I can't complete with that. I don't do that again. I think I'm going to suck and go fuck me. This kid's really got it. She's a genius.

It'd probably be like, if I, because my family's all intensely musical, really, really musical. Granddad's got an OBE. For what? An OBO? Not an OBO. He used to run like the National Youth Orchestra and stuff.

And then my dad was in a band. My dad was in a band before I was born. Then I was born and then he was like, I haven't got any money. So I became a teacher. But my mum used to be, it was a concert penis for a time and stuff. Like they're all very musical. So like if we went to church at Christmas or something, they'd all be singing the desk camp.

the like and I'm just going you didn't have that talent no no I've played double bass for a bit I just got so bored because I couldn't do play bass how I wanted to play I wanted to play bass like Jacko Pistorius

so you won't know who that is Is it Oscar's brother? Base God, not Oscar's brother No he's base god Right right right right So this is where you thought you were But you were This is in your Gavin Plum era right

Yes I'm I'm fat wearing a Hawaiian shirt Wanted to be base god Yeah But I couldn't do it obviously Yeah. And I also couldn't be asked to practice. So this is putting Evan Watson off of how much. But maybe your parents wouldn't have approved of this type of baseball.

I would put, I would be not invite to say in Watson's party. I'd go home and take it out on my bass guitar. I'd like, dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig dig. He said to sound like Troy. You know, he did an audition to be Dudley. Oh, I know. Yeah.

Makes a lot of sense. So let's get into Picasso's personal life. Because from a young age, I think maybe age 12 or 13, his dad basically goes like, oh son, check this out, takes him to a brothel and from that point onwards his relationship to sex

never really changes. Well, is it, I know people whose first sexual experience has been their dad taking to his brothels. And I think around the world.

I've got friends who's first, yeah. But it is quite a regular thing. I think that's completely mad. I thought you said that's completely normal. Yeah.

I know some boys at school that had that experience to. Really, their dad took him to a brothel. I mean, father son bonding is difficult. It is tough. But you don't want father son bondage.

Bondage. Yeah, you don't want Father son bondage. Father son bondage. father-some, but that's where that stops being. But I guess the idea is that you sort of, you see off the new ball in a brothel. And it probably makes sense.

Like, it's your first, you know. Because by the time then you have your first actual, like, emotional experience. But also in terms of muses and the way that he uses women later on in his life for his art. Allegedly, allegedly. Allegedly. If you see women as providing you a service,

whether that's sexual pleasure or artistic merit. I mean, maybe it cements something in his brain, early doors that he associates women, women with use and you you exit after you have extracted their value. So he's 13 when his dad takes him to a Spanish brothel. But his dad is Spanish so I guess the Spanish. Just to say brothel. It's not like, oh, he went to a Spanish brothel.

They love it over there. Like tapas. You like have a little bit, you know. Dip it, we'll have a bit of anal over here, a bit of sucky, sucky over here. And then we'll get a big vadge for the table. You know, so quick. I'm not going to be able to keep up with that. Quick.

We're quick insert and subjects. Yeah. Are they talking about muff, p-dos? Yeah. Dildos. We're a very quick 14-year-old boys. Even in the last year since I came on, you really have... Oh, God, yeah.

Quicker than last time. Oh, yeah, that's amazing. It's still the same soundboard, though. It's just Fred again. Just going to do that. So, work, sex and tobacco are his addiction, supposedly. He's married twice, has four children with three women. And, yes, allegedly, several women suffer severe psychological distress after the relationship.

have psychological distress anyway though. Yeah. And two attempt suicide, but again, how much can it be, you know, how much... What's his amazing quote about women are born to suffer? Cumb buckets. Charlie. What did you say?

A cum bucket. Cumb buckets. Charlie. What's Picasso's amazing quote? Women are cum buckets. Charlie, that's disgusting. As Picasso once said, women are cum buckets. No, vessels for suffering.

Machines for suffering. Machines for suffering. Not vessels. Yeah. That's quite a misogynistic term. They're machines. Machines, of course. The problem with the art is like, obviously there's now been that kind of Hanna Gadsby

re-look at, you know, artists and it's like problematizing them, but it is undeniably romantic and it produces great art. We talk about it now and there's a documentary saying it's awful they treat women like this, but women themselves find the ideal romantic and, you know, in art, don't you think? The idea of the suffering woman still is as an artistic archetype. Absolutely. It's still people who will play up to. it's still what the great artists often use.

But I also think there's something interesting because his, his, like, his mania and his, the way that he constantly reinvents himself with all of these different eras, maybe because of bored, maybe because he's too talented. To me, in a way, his crazy life is actually quite feminine, but because he's so masculine about it, because he doesn't apologize for himself.

We associate it as being this very masculine man, but... I think he's just like an unapologetic, I think maybe about the reason why he's so artistically interesting is because of the, there's femininity to it as well, with the mania and with the, constantly reinventing himself. He's Catholic.

Yeah, so, yeah, it's Catholic. I'd say it's Catholicism. Really? Yeah. Is it hard to work when you're in love like this? It's a hard to work that you're in love. I find it hard to work being in love. Yeah, I get distracted all the time.

So Picasso's ground. You have any of the HD? Yeah, it's true. And you're struggling beforehand. Yeah, and to be honest, I'm actually just really lazy and jobless. Yeah. So I don't really have to work anyway. Anyway.

Not now. Because of Erica Kirk of fucking Bombolisky. She's saying she's going to Erica Kirk me. I am. Fake my assassination. I'll really live up to my potential when Horatio gets assassinated. We are joined by Finn versus History's very own Erica Kirk. Get the video of her dancing like three days after the...

I love the video of her dancing. Do you think she might have killed him? No, I just think she's taking it that badly. So a Picasso's granddaughter is the first. time where I suppose his legacy is really compromised. That's not true. So many of his wife wrote books. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But his wife doesn't write books. Yeah, exactly. But he's not had sex with his granddaughter, so she's objective. Uh-huh, that's true. So he he's not gandying her? No. Right, no. Doesn't give her the gandy treatment. Quote, he submitted women to his animal sexuality, tamed them,

bewitched them, ingested them and crushed them onto his canvas after he had spent many nights extracting their essence once they were bled dry he would dispose of them. So that's Picasso's granddaughter, but your new show that you're doing Edinburgh is about being a muse and wanting to be amused. The whole idea of the show, if I'm not wrong,

is that it's about what happens if you don't even get picked to be amused. Think about all the ugler women who didn't get ingested into canvas. And like you talk about it, it's awful how you treat these women. But think about the ones who don't get that, they would still be looking at the women.

Well, because I think that actually as women, even though we know that this kind of treatment and I don't know like boiling down to your essence and then being extracted whatever we know that it's kind of toxic but at the same time it's all we know so therefore it's difficult to not desire your own objectification in a way like it it's it's difficult to not want to be amuse when that's seen as the most important thing yeah or is it just that it's still even though you're still being liked exactly you're being observed you're being desired yeah yeah being desired and being observed and that makes you feel like you're real it changes the fritzel

case entirely exactly. You're still being liked. Well, he liked me. He liked me. At least someone out there's got my back. Or than some people could say.

Someone out there's blown my back out. If somebody's really talented and somebody's like seen to be a great artist and he picks you. Yeah. And he takes you seriously. You got picked. Yes, you're picked first.

No, but it does make you probably feel like you probably are capable of great things yourself. So in 1927, Picasso, that's how I feel that Horatius picked me. Right, I see. Picasso. So he, so he, He's Picasso, age 45.

In 2027, he meets Marie-Therese Walter, who was 17. That's you ripping paper at the moon. Now this is game, okay? Game-recognized game. He meets a 17-year-old outside of department store in Paris and says, I'm Picasso, you and I are going to do great things together. That's his classic line. That's what he messaged me on Instagram.

Grab a coat, love, you pulled. It's essentially that, right? Now, Marie-Turice is the real, it's probably the, worst of the abuse, maybe. I think so. It depends on you see abuse. Yeah, the alleged abuse. Not Mother Teresa, Charlie, not Mother Teresa.

He does not sexually abuse Mother Teresa. So he, yeah. Has there been another one? Sorry? Are there any more Mother Teresa's or is it like... It's not like the Dalai Lama, no. It's not a hereditary sort of. Or like a...

Yeah, so he repeatedly reinvented himself, as you said. So at what point does he... Is it basically when he's like in his 20s that he starts just... being the Picasso that we recognize. When does he un-learn, when does he stop doing this incredible... It seems like his 20s, or even younger than that.

It seems like pretty much from the off. So he has his so-called blue period. 301 to 1904, which follows the suicide of his close friend. He shot somebody who turned his proposal down. So this is artist Carl's Casamez. In 1901, he proposed to a model in Paris. She rejects him. He draws a pistol and fires after her.

The bullet missed, but knocks her to the ground. round, he thinks he's killed her, so kills himself. That's an amazing. So you were saying that you fucked your engagement of it. Yeah, yeah. Not quite as bad. No, no, no. This is, that's a real botched job.

You've really fucked your engagement up. How did it go? Well, I'm, well, she's fine, but I'm now dead. I imagine that happened all in about 10 seconds. Yeah. I'd love to see that 10 second video. That's incredible. No.

Oh. Then she gets up and's like, fuck. Christ. So, anyway, so here, but this, inspires Picasso's kind of more somber period. So, okay, so these are, these are still quite conventional. But it's still quite conventional.

Quite sort of blue. It's the 1900s. So it's right on the turn of the century. It's let the surrealism hasn't fully come in. No, and Cubism will break through just after this. Sort of 1807. No. 17. Cubism, he is one of the inventors of. There's a school. Yes. There's a cubist. A cubist

school, which is a slur in my head. He's a member of the Cuba school. Rather than depicting objects from a 2D's normal viewpoint. Depit them as cubes. Just, fuck, I don't know. You just see it from loads of different perspectives, right?

Right. Yeah. Or maybe it's kind of influenced by sculpture, isn't it? So this is more Picasso that we'd understand. So what year is this? This is more like the Citrin Picasso. Yeah. That doesn't really do anything for me.

What, this stuff? Yeah. Why not? Because there's no people in it. It's just guitars. I think it's probably just because maybe it's influenced so much of art through the decades and then even advertising, I think the colouring and everything like that.

For some reason to me, it feels a little bit like an advert on the tube. Yeah, it's commercialised now. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of those graphic design people, you know, the people that have become really popular in like sort of adverts for like oat milk that I have really big bodies and tiny heads. A bit like your point at him and say that. That's so rude.

You've got to point with your finger just like your body. Yeah. Like a Picasso. A massive bodies and tiny heads like in. Yeah. Sharp point as well. To me, it screams a little bit like 2010's millennial graphic design. This is the first time you've been on the pod since your fat Elvis comment. Yeah, you stroke up, struck again.

Yeah, a second comment has hit the, I love that fat Elvis thing you did in your poster. Just just Elvis, baby. To be fair, that was one of the funniest things. I really am sorry about that thing, but I think growing up is a process of realizing. We all think that we're good people and I actually don't ever think about anything before it comes out of my mouth. and I'm only learning to do that now. I was going to say something very rude to him yesterday, and I thought to myself,

no, that's going to have something. That turns out that they mean it, when your mum told you you have to think before you speak. I actually never did that. And I really apologize for the fat. I always think before I speak. Yeah, famously. Okay.

Sorry about the fat. Should we have a look at, should check in your drawing? So Charlie, just, what's this work called? My baby. It's called your baby. My baby. Did you draw my tits?

Did you want a tits out? I would say that looks like a baboon with tits, is what I would say. But is this her smelling? Is this the moment she's... My naked. Why are you doing, you say she got her tits out

when she smelled the shit? Possibly. It's very Picasso-esque, meaning I hate it. That's fine. We'll make sure we get some close-ups for the people at home. So that's Charlie's.

You've given her a real monkey face, that's what I'd say. That's what I'd say. But you know, you can't. You can't rush art. No, you can't. My boobs look good though. Thank you.

So, now he had a very weird relationship to animals, Picasso. So he had a goat was walking around his house. Yeah, he was fascinated by goats. Esmeral of the goat. Yeah, he couldn't believe his luck. It's such a common theme among, like, quirky male artists. Goats? Know that they have animals wandering around their houses.

I wonder if it's like... Affactation. It does feel like that's an affectation to me. So he found an injured owl and kept it. And then he had a whole thing. So throughout the 30s, he basically has this alter. ego of a minor tour, which is kind of like half man, half ball. And then he would depict the minor tour engaging in kind of these violent, erotic encounters. And then people now

interpret that as, um, that's like him, basically raping his girlfriend. Right. But again, it's justifying. It's split personality with the rapist. Yeah, but it's justifying, isn't it? If you say that half of you is a monster, like a mythical creature that cannot help his own bad behavior. But if you're aware of it enough to put it in a painting, pretty sick. Then it's like, but it's still justifying. It would be much braver to say that you, the man, the human being has done wrong things. It's just like, oh, you murdered someone, you go, oh, sorry, it's because half of me is a man, yeah, I'm a half cow, sorry.

Sorry, you're on a... Oh, that's the elf pole of me. That's the cow part. Yeah, it was a cow bit, sorry. Yeah. Would it be more powerful if they'd been raping him? I think that would have done more for me. The United States is the weirdest country in the world right now, and it doesn't make any sense

to anyone. No, it doesn't, but I want to make it a bit less. confusing. Oh, I do. Good. Well, our podcast can help. It's called American Friction, and it's out every Monday and Friday. We discuss all the big news from across the pond and explain it all with world-leading experts. That's American Friction. Listen, right now, wherever you get your podcasts, right now. American Friction! So, now, we should probably get in. Let's get it. get into the more of us, the actual

alleged abuse, right? So, he burned one of his mistress's houses down, didn't he? Or his wife's house house. Well, one of my favorite things about Picasso is that at some point, so he has this, he's a 17 year old

girl. Awoo. A woo. Who he's with. And in the modern parlance, you now say that he groomed her. But again, I think that's a loaded term. Yes. There was an age gap. Love is love. Yeah, love is love. Yeah, love is love.

all right um but he uh took her as a mistress or either that or he had another mistress wait in the car either he had another mistress right and at some point they discover each other and they confront each other and he then makes them fight like Pokemon in his studio oh that's good isn't that the most like artistic thing he said it was the greatest moment of his life well it would be yeah that's incredible who won do we know i don't know do we know i guess maybe a because it's proof that two beautiful things can love you at once, that they can... But it's going back to you're saying about being desired.

Exactly. That's the male version. Exactly. You know, a woman wants to be painted. A man wants to two women in a fucking fight over her. Yeah, exactly. It's their eyes out. So that's Marie Theresa's and then one of the other women.

I can't remember who. I mean, you both obviously thrive of have people watching you and... And you think that you would get to... Not women, not women. I'm sure that there are some women. It's not as cool when there's two Star Wars kids fucking lights every other. I was going to say, I'm going to say. I'm going to say.

They've got big sticks. When you get some of your patrons to fight? You could do one of those video simulations that they do like 10 rhinoceruses against like a thousand Roman. Yeah, you know, you know, there's like 10,000 rhinoceris.

Against... One woman. Yeah. Well, they look at the eye and they'd all just fall over. Oh, no, no, no. So we had the blue period. After the blue period,

he had the rose period, right? Yeah, where he painted loads of holoquins. He was supposedly really happy. Yeah, so do you know why he got happy? Is it? Because he had two women fighting over him. Yeah, I guess we would be quite happy. So let's have a look at some of the...

When does he start getting into that classic Picasso style that we know? What time is that? So the blue period, the rose period. And then I guess he's in the kind of golden age of, you'd argue, Paris artistically, potentially, the 1920s. Going to Montmartrechre. Going to the Amelie Cafe.

He must have been having a great time. Yeah, in midnight in Paris, he goes back to this period. Yeah. Picasso, Hemingway. So the only film that Horatio will re-watch. Midnight in Paris. Yeah, he talks to me about it as well. Picasso is such a hoarder.

He doesn't actually sell many of his paintings. He just keeps all his paintings around. Totally, he doesn't even let his fingernails go to waste because the Spanish are all superstitious like that. It doesn't leave any body hair around. Where's he putting it? Hey? Where's he putting it all?

I don't know. Much like where the fuck should you put your laundry. Much of just everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. Oh, so 1937. So two women accidentally arrive at his Parisian studio at the same time. Walter de Barnes Picasso Choose between them

Picasso then just goes Go on girls, have a go of it And then Yeah, he said they began to wrestle It's one of my choicest memories Yeah, he kept on painting, he said Yeah, he was like, well, fucking yeah I'm gonna paint this

Yeah Bit of peace and quiet finally So during World War one He basically just cops out, stays in France Because Spanish Civil War Everyone's flooding in It's like war tourism And he's actually from Spain

And he just fucking dips Sorry, World War I misses out. Oh, of course. Yeah. World War II, he lives in occupied Paris. But he's probably most known for Guernica, which is the depicting the bombing, alleged bombing of the Lufaffe of the Spanish town.

Now, we've talked about this from the very early day to the pod. Yeah, that he made a mistake and he fucked it. And then they were like, because that Gurneckerleke, he was like, yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, maybe. Yeah, I think he was trying to draw a horse. And then he had several goes, and he didn't change paper. And then they went, what's that? It was like an abstract interpretation of the Gernicabami's.

Yeah, sure, that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, you said, yeah. Supposedly, a German officer saw a photograph of it and said, did you do this? And he said, no, you did. So he's on Reddit. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

He doesn't strike me as a super political figure, even if people might interpret him as such. Would you say, is he in less difficult pint? It's definitely a less difficult pint than Van Gogh. Oh, I'd love to go for a part of Picasso. So tell him about the time that you're two side pieces had to go to each other. That'd be fun.

Van Gogh is just too much. Yeah, he's a laugh. Yeah, he's a laugh. He would sometimes offer a signed napkin as payment after we'd had a meal at a restaurant. I mean, that would be that iconic that you can just any meal. Imagine that you're just scribbling a piece of paper

and dinner, you're just fucking... But Van Gogh can never do that. No, because no, we need money. You smell. Who are you? Who are you? You're a weird. Why are you bleeding out the side of your head?

So he realized that, yeah, the signatures. So I guess he kind of made it in his lifetime. And there's the opposite of that. He really enjoyed it. He loved it. Absolutely loved it. Because it's probably nothing better than being super rich and just doing it through painting

and then you're really good at painting. It feels like you get everything. But then, so Gwernica's, I think the fact everyone knows him for this is part of the reason that everyone then starts chipping him going, actually he was really abusive because there's a photo called the weeping woman. Can you get that up?

Where he basically, in order to get this, he made one of his girlfriends just repeatedly cry over and over again. And like, but like made her cry, not like act crying, like actually was horrible to her, demeaning her, etc. And then got this. And when you see this painting, you're like, you could have just done that without a woman there. It looks nothing like a, do you know what I mean?

It's so abstract. It's like, you didn't need to do that. Yeah, but when people talk about, you know, this is an iconic painting. Is it a painting that all... Dora Marr, sorry, that's the other one who fights. Right. She's in the red corner.

Right. You know, Therese Waters and the Blue Corner. But the Weepa Woman is an iconic painting and we remember for hundreds and hundreds of years. Is it so bad that a woman got, you know, was crying? Well, stop clock, isn't it? Yeah, but everyone was like, it's so problematic. A woman was crying.

Yeah. It's like, all right. But look, we've got a painting now forever. That's true. That's true. woman cried. Would she cancel him? What would she do?

Yeah. What would she ever do? Oh, she was an artist. All right. But then, quote, she was known to Picasso as being always weeping because of their turbulent relationship. Yeah, well,

when I lost my phone and wallet on holiday, we were stuck with just one car between us and it was very tough getting home. And BB's approach to any sort of situation of stress is you scream cry immediately. Would you not say? I would say. So like, if it's, really?

Yeah, immediately. Scream cry. Yeah, it's kind of like. scream cry. Pretty much scream cry. More to 100. Yeah. And I think you say you're taught this by your mother, right,

which is like a defense mechanism for it. Well, it's partly the way that I deal with stress. A deal is an interesting word. Respond. Fine. Respond. Okay, fine. Respond.

It's probably the way that I respond to stress. But I also think there's... Uber cancelled. That's what you see. If an Uber cancelled to the airport, this is you're getting that immediately. I think it's... It was more than an Uber cancelling. It was that I didn't realize that with Ryanair,

if you don't check in online, that they charge you for late booking and because I didn't have an actual in-person card because, well, I didn't bring my cards out with me. I thought I was going to be able to use it after play. Blue the cobwebs off. Why would you? Well, I didn't fucking expect this.

What do you mean? My wallet. What do you mean? What's that? What's that? What's that? What's that? I think it's also a female thing.

It's a, you know, there's strength in weak. My mum taught me when I was a little girl when you get in trouble you cry because it makes men confused and slightly angry and But I'm looking at this painting. I'm looking at this painting hearing that. Yeah. When you're in trouble cry, right?

So she's crying over her own accord. Yeah. And he's just painting it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I'm just saying like as a little girl you can do that as getting out of trouble. But as a woman too, it's about fawning. It's a fawning, it's a fawning reflex that is, like actually something in

all of animal nature. It's about making yourself small. It's about making yourself vulnerable. And it like tends to get me out of a lot of troublesome situations. Because I have to fix it. But basically, he's so nasty.

No, no, no. But I think when you reach a certain age, do you think the scream crying will be less, uh, will it be less effective, do you think? It probably will get less effective. Yeah. Post menopause.

Come on, love. Come on, love. You're fucking. The thing is maybe that's my way of responding to it. It's like I'm upset with the fact that I know that it's like, this is going to be a very temporary period of my life where I can make use of it. So why not make use of it? That's a good point. The world gives a lot of opportunities for women to cry. Hey, is that crazy to say?

Go on, Charlie. When did you last see a Hera show? Truly cry. I have seen him cry twice in a whole relationship when they were both at films. Yeah. And I bet those films had subtitles. Wanker. I think one of them might have actually. Crazy. Imagine crying at a film of subtitles. No, it was waves. Yeah.

And it was, um, never heard of it. Never heard of it. You know, I didn't, do think I didn't, I didn't,

but then I think she turned the lights on. Crying at anime. It's the saddest film of it. It's a really sad drawing. Is it called, is it? It's a really sad drawings. Well, just like that's a really sad drawing.

Crying at anime. But then she turned the lights on because she was like so shot that I was crying that she wanted to capture the moment. But she was like completely, it made me never want to cry again because you were like,

you wanted to remember it so much. I didn't know, I mean, Turn the main light on. You can judge me, but I also think that there's something powerful and letting yourself release emotions and... There's clearly something artistically interesting about it. So Picasso...

No one's saying you're holding it in. Picasso, by the 70s, I'm also just thinking about when my dad met your mom. Oh, my God, that was incredible. And then my dad, because he's... He's a gay man. He's basically a gay man to put it short... Because he's an active listener.

Yes. For a man in the 60s, very, very rare. Yes. Your mother had never met a man who actually listened to her. And I saw kind of her entire worldview change like in second. and then she was so entranced by my dad's spell that she missed helping you for your show

which would be done every day for a month. My dad is a witch doctor. He's a dangerous man. He's a doctor for witches. Yes, sorry, he's a dangerous man to a certain age woman. Anyway, so by the 70s, Picasso is the most famous artist alive. So he lives to see his own success. And he dies in 73, age 91,

working till the end. His final wife committed suicide in 1986 so, you know, like 13 years later. So obviously you've got nothing to do with that. Yeah. You know, what happened in those 13 years? Yeah.

Must have been sad. Anyway, he was the other guy. Yeah. Also, you know, his son died of alcoholism. People think maybe it was linked to suicide or depression. But also his grandson. sharp. Can't fucking concentrate.

But didn't his grandson also commit suicide? I feel like a lot of people in the Picasso circle like they kill themselves or they end up so fucked up and I think it's very interesting when you think about genius artists with toxicity

it's almost like this super resource that sucks the soil dry from everyone around them. I certainly think if you're like an iconic artist it colours everything around you and if you then raise kids who are born with the money from your art but don't have the talent. Exactly. I think they feel this sense of imposter syndrome that leads to depression.

Stanley Kubrick's grandson is now started on Instagram and it's quite funny. He's basically like, I'm completely talentless, but I've got loads of money. Here's me on holiday. It's basically him on like jet skis, him going to like villas and like, yeah, sadly, I'm, yeah, I can't do anything. I'm richly rubbish ed. He can't even, he's filming his feet most of the time. Can't even hold him to his best. It's like he's probably hell

hardly a chip off the old Brock, is it? I mean, Brooklyn Beckham's less aware of it than Kubrick's grandson. Cruise Beckham, phenomenally talented. What a musician. It's probably my gayest opinion is that I genuinely love the music of Cruz Beckham. Isn't he like 17?

Yeah, he's 19. Yep. You really are a very surprising creature, no, I am. And what? I contain multitudes. That multitude is Cruise Beckham. Cruise Beckham.

I like the Nazis. I like to Ben Beckham over a barrel. I love that moment in. And they like Cruz Beckham over a barrel. In the posh vice documentary on Netflix, there was this really nice moment where David and Victoria are talking about their kids and it's intercut with a montage of them all in the kitchen together.

This is before the Brooklyn Beckham. Can we get some Kleenex in here? But they basically both talk to camera and their kids are all chatting. They're all together in the kitchen and yes, they all come across a bit bimboish. But David says so earnestly to camera, they could have turned out to be arsoz.

And I'm really, really powerful. And then his mum is, is fucking grinding on all the kids as well. Yeah. I mean, this was before this conflict, but I think that it's very difficult. She's twirking.

If you're a successful artist, how do you raise children that are not going to be influenced by the idea that you're some genius? It's like you're borrowing. I almost think it's like when you take drugs and you borrow happiness from the next few days and you have this terrible come down.

Maybe if you're a genius, you borrow all of the energy and life force from the children that you're going to have. It's going to take generations for people to have enough backstory and coolness to be talented again. You kind of, selfish if you become a great artist and you have a family because doesn't give your children

a fucking chance. I think that's what a fucking untalented artist says. Yeah, I did it for my kids being crap art. Yeah. So now Picasso becomes a surrealist officially. He's a card carrying surrealist. Yeah. Surrealism I have a problem with. Why? What you think it's random? Well, it is. So you don't like surrealism. Start of random. How do you not like surrealism? Do you not like surrealism, Charlie? I don't. I'd never met it. You're a very surreal person though. Yeah, you are a dali painting. So the whole point of surrealism is it comes out of World War I where they think, well, the realism caused this like nightmare. So, and it's all about Sigmund Freud's theories of the

unconscious, and why don't we paint dreams? Why don't we paint those unconscious thoughts? Why do we render that? And I guess things have to make sense. Semi-PTSD from the war, you start having to have to look into what's going on in the mind Because people's faces now look like Picasso's paintings in real life. So, you know, they're thinking, right, well, this is a bit crazy. It's a bit random. That's what you say to a one about. Yeah, my nose is on my eyes.

Why is your nose by your ear? There's a thing called Dadaism as well. Type of Dadaism. Which is about anti-art, isn't it? So am I dadaist? Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, you'd hate Dadaism. It is the definition of random.

Dada. Dada. Mone into the mustache. Hey, what? It's quite smug. Mona Lisa with a moustache. Oh, God, it's tea towel. Yeah.

My first official wank. Do you mean official? What? What do you mean? Does the queen cut it with a red ribbon before you started? With the Guinness Book of Records there? What do you mean? Jolly.

That poster. So it's that da da... That's the fucking picture you drew of me. So it's that da-oh. Is that da-da? Did I? Getting the Mona Lisa Cheb's out? No, I don't think so.

Wait, wait. Wait, did you actually wank? I had that on my wall for a long time Who put it there? Wanking, looking at your wall. Your mum put it there. You're wanking looking at your wall. Yeah, she was on there.

But your wanking is something that's on your wall. It's crazy. This is like walking through a museum, wanking at the pictures. It's crazy. Normally you're hunched over looking at a magazine. Generally the first time you came was at the Mona Lisa. Successfully, yeah.

Successfully. That's unbelievable. What had you been trying to do before? Just trying to come, but I was just watching porn like TV. It was horrible. It was horrible. What? You got Homer Simpson in her armchair with a

fucking beer just like, boring, boring, boring, changing channel. But that did it for you? So artists believe that if rationality had created the violence of war, irrationality could be used to create beauty. I understand it up to this point. Then you get some of dream surrealism, where they paint really

lifelike, but it's things that were never... Photorealistic, but mental shit. Yeah, exactly. So this is kind of Pink Floyd album cover stuff, right? So objects are bigger than this should be... This is Dali, right? So we're getting into Salvador Dali, who was born in the, what? early 1900s, I think.

He was a massive Picasso fan boy, right? Was he? So he's Spanish as well, I presume, and he becomes the face of surrealism, and his face now lives on in the shit mustaches of bad improv troops at the Edinburgh Festival. It does look like a Victorian villain, does it? Yes, he does.

It makes sense that he actually was a fascist. So, was he a fascist? He was like a Francoist. It's a bit muddy waters, but he certainly didn't hate the region. In fact, some kind of like quirky surrealist art fans now, I certainly find it interesting that he's the sort of face of the surrealist art movement when it's actually something that's really associated with communism and a lot of anti-fascist.

Random fascism. It's a bit weird, isn't it? So it's kind of funny, isn't it? But it's also the same way that with like certain quirky brands of like comedy or art or acting, you know, clowning and all these kind of things.

Really associated with very liberal spaces. Oftentimes will be people that are actually really, you know, partially, privately educated. I mean, this is like you both agree with, but you're basically saying all clowns are rapists. I didn't say.

But you say that's all the time. I've got that tattooed above my arse. What you're getting at is the guy the Dornbrook's tone bag and his painted nails who's, you know, reading a fucking Simone de Beauvoir book. Why I'm talking to white people, whatever. Yeah, why you're fucking hate white people about race

and stuff like that. They're the ones who are going to be massaculate for later's and paedophiles, is what you were saying. It's not at all what I was saying. I read it. I read it. I read it. I read it.

I read it. But it is interesting that Salvadoradli, you know, he had like a fascination with Hitler and stuff, didn't he? But it's the 30s. You're allowed to be fascinated by Hitler. It's true. You would have been curious. Who's this guy?

You've been like, what the fuck is going on? He's just on the Anjolus. What is? I like this. It's suspicious to not have a fascination with Hitler. Thank you. Because it does show a lack of curiosity about the extremes of humanity.

If you're a straight man. It's not extreme at the time. It's centrist. You know, this is the story of the German Lib Dems in the 30s. Uncle Christmas. It's Clech-Mania. Everyone's having a conversation at the table.

He's already retreated to the living room. He can still. here. He's shouting from there. He was an extreme at the time. He was like a centrist at the time. He was like the Nick Clegg of his day. It's Cleggmania. It's the first Cleggmania. Once only bounties left.

But I think with Spain though, fascist Spain is like fascism originates in Italy which makes sense because Italy you know, it's a fucking, it's a wet suit, do you know what I mean? It hasn't got any starch. It needs order, needs rigidity. Spain's, I can see why if you're

a Spaniard and you would, you know, you like money as Dali did, you would then be like, well, can we fucking get something going, please? Can we get rid of the siesters? Yeah, it was a response to siesterism. Yes. Well, can we find out,

did siesters go down under the fascist, regime? Huge, huge study of this. Because that's fascinating. Maybe ask Chachibati. In Spanish, Aceo means toilet. It's quite, yeah, that's not what we ask,

Charlie, can you ask, or Phoebe or just anyone back there? This is generally interesting. Did the siesta culture change? under Franco. It changed significantly under Franco. It was a survival mechanism during his dictatorship, so it actually came up.

So they're trying to do it to hide. Well, I guess it's fascistic. It's enforced napping because it's spanish. Because it also gives you more energies that you're able to work two jobs. That's what it, I think is. Of course. Well, I saw, yeah, I saw like a fucking

Manosphere guy saying, I've split my day into two days. And therefore I have 14 days in a week. I've seen this. So you can maybe that's what they're doing there. Except really in the first place, they only have half a day. So really they're just making one day.

Franco moved Spain's clocks forward by an hour to align with Nazi Germany. I like that. This is both Picasso and Dali, but especially Dali became obsessed with money in quite like a warhol-esque way where he viewed the fame, success, and how much money you have

is a sign of how great an artist you are, which is weirdly also doesn't go with a surreal. And he's kind of almost like one of the early influences. He's promoting himself with these publicity stunts. he turns up in a really big heavy old-fashioned diving suit at some sort of an event and he passed out

he also had three ferrets he was walking on leashes oh yeah two white house it was meant to be some sort of conference about art and then he did his speech from this helmet and then it got stuck and he nearly suffocated to death and people had to wrench him out on stage if only he died

that would be so fucking satisfied because now this concert just in the key for Bergheim. Yeah. Exactly. There's three ferrets and his little and little

and the diamond also so he became obsessed with money however to make money he thought if you're a genius you should monetise as much as possible right

and then genius this is genius genius genius genius yeah that guy's a pedophile so he did a Disney collab as well

with the original Disney he became he was fast they're both fascinating each other he thought Disney was like a great artist animator and they

It took 58 years to finish this short film called Destino, which I guess finished both after they'd both died. It won an Oscar and it's, I guess, Salvador Darlane's drawings animated by Disney. It's kind of amazing. Do you like his paintings? Do you know what? It's because it's surreal and I know it's surreal and I know that it's not meant to make me feel anything. So you're not surprised by anything?

I'm not surprised by anything. See, that's how ADHD people see time. Yeah. That's what time blindness. Well, that's just a normal painting in Africa, isn't it? I find the arid landscape quite unsettling. It looks like Cornwall. I don't think it looks like Cornwall.

I don't know anything looks like. Actually, to know what, Charlie, I think it does look like Cornwall. My friend Kev lives on a cliff in Cornwall. Oh yeah. She's completely irrelevant. You lives in a cliff? Wow. In a cliff on it.

And kind of on it. We eat stuff off the rocks. Samfite. You eat stuff off the rocks. You do live in a fucking Darleney painting, Charlie. That's true. Samfire. It's funny, you know, because a lot of hot girls on TikTok

who are painters have a very sort of surrealist style. And it is funny when you sort of compare, it's always like a sort of a Pinterest board. It's just like these items. It's sort of, I can imagine Dardi just sort of being like, yeah, cute, clock. Well, do you think modern art has moved to the point where, I think there is now like the artist Badi coming along

as a Instagram thing where it's like attractive girl who will post loads of images as if she's attractive and then part of her attractiveness is that she also does sort of art and it nearly always there's derivative of of all the art. I mean all art is you know derivative mostly

I think it's what's that what's that derivative of right let's get his Hitler one up because Hitler one is kind of goated to be fair yeah yeah yeah I don't think that you should blame people for being interested in art no matter how derivative it is because in order to create your own style

you have to you have to copy other people first but this is very much this podcast the fact the fascination undeniably I guess put a lot of this podcast is giving into animal urges and not being performative about and lying about things. Obviously if you're a man you are interested in Hitler

don't deny it. And I think this painting you can't say he was pro-Hitler but it's terrifying. Let me look at it. Let me look at it. It's a little rotted pieces of food and a little postcard image of postage stamp of

Hitler. And there's a bat. Oyster. And there's an oyster. And also it's a similar setting to the persistence of time. It could also be in Cornwall. The weather's changed. Zoom out. There's a sort of ghost-like umbrella.

There's a black knob. Oh no. No, no, no. It looks like a scorpion, it looks like. Or it's dripping. Or it's dripping.

It's a lot like a knob. It does look like a... I am seeing a big knob dripping. It always looks like a couple cashew. Caches. Now, do you know what? The more I look at it, the more I actually don't think it's about Hitler at all.

Okay. I think it's just a photo of Hitler in the middle. Right. I mean, what the fuck's that about? What the fuck is going on there? Can you just tell you just, me can you keep that up and then get a separate window up with some kind of Gemini saying what the fuck I'm meant to think about that so he did that in 39 the cut telephone cord represents the severing of

diplomatic communicator very Beethoven's brother isn't it brown landscape is the sterility and the anxiety the impending catastrophe he always does a barren landscape I think he just doesn't know how to paint a different type of landscape necessarily my problem with this stuff is that it's a bit like you're seeing this then you're reading about what it means stuff and it's a bit like for watching an level drama production. Absolutely. Yeah. But also,

you could be told that a painting means anything. Social media is bad. Yeah. And I think that you would be able to draw conclusions if you said any item was linked to anything or emotion.

You would be able to find some kind of link there. But do you not think with the colour of Dali's normal paintings, the fact that's 1939, the graveness of the feeling on the continent, I feel it represents that emotion quite well. It does represent that,

but then because he's, because he's chosen these things. He's there going, how shall I represent the seven diplomatic relation? You know, but it's radio, it's radio four, isn't it? It's Rye. That's a Rye painting. Now, if you were going to, you had to draw,

in 1930, you had to draw a painter called the Enigma of Hittner. Yeah. How would Finn Taylor do? I'll show you, it's like, like, one of those Japanese, like, just love hearts everywhere, and it's got massive eyes, and he's like, oh, blah, blu, blu, blu, blit, like that. I was what you're going to say is one of those octopus fucking woodprints. No, it's like a...

Dignyra of Hitler and it's him going, Oh, no, it's a hello kitty, but Hitler's like, hello hitty. Hello hitty. It's good. So obviously, Dali, without Dali, there'd be no,

David Lynch, you know, talking heads is quite influenced by Dali, I'd say, as well. Do you like Lynch? Yeah, I like Twin Peaks. Twin Peaks is amazing. Here in David, there's a complation of David Lynch

talking about, every time he forgets an idea he wants to kill himself. And he said this in so different interviews, there's like three minutes. minutes of him just and it is a very relatable thing basically. So perhaps more than any other movement in our surrealism sort of opens a gate I guess. So I suppose, you know, if you're tracing this back from Van Gogh, which is in the impressionist

are in the 1860s. Yeah. In the space of 80 years, what's possible in art has entirely changed. And I guess the war is fed it all up. Yeah. Because everything's just got technology has grown at such a rapid rate. but now I guess where does it leave art now because it does feel

right what have you done there Charlie what have you done? Because people are listening switch to video and tell us what you've done there can you replace this as the enigma of Finn Taylor British comedian

make it similarly dark and a bit homosexual right that's the prompt so it's just it's basically kind of it's still quite radio for funny isn't it what is that is that what it says in the mountain

it's coming out of the cock which they've made a bit more pronounced that's meant to be you. It's like Bob Dylan. It's not just a joke, darling. And then there's a... It's classic Finn. It's quite you.

I don't think that's me. It's beautiful in the ball. Really? Yeah. I guess where is art now? I don't understand. The female gays, I just will never understand. Because the thing about Dali, he died.

He looks like he's got AIDS, that guy. I like him weak. Right. Well, yeah, I guess that I'm trash. He dies in 89. Yeah. Right. But at least Dali was a proper painter and he had incredible technical skills.

And I think he was, these paintings still stand up. I guess now post-warhole, art has got to a point where it feels like technically it's all been stripped back, right? There's a sort of a bit of a death of fine art. Well, I think it's almost cringy to try and be good at art now, isn't it? Because now it's so conceptual.

Who the big... Because now in many ways, the British art scene, certainly in Europe is the biggest, the most emerging one, but they're sort of what they called the young... I have no idea. There's like a name for them. The young...

Young kings. I guess it's so interesting as well because you think about what people would have to spend so much time actually painting learning each kind of fine brush stroke people had so many less things to do

of course they would become masters in a different way I think that we're all too overstimulated now to spend our time becoming master painters so we're not going to see any more master painters the new shit does leave me cold yeah it's not there's no craft to it anymore no yeah and it's all about conceptual or what I don't like is so much of art

it's just recontextualizing other things. And that's the art. Isn't it artistic that I put a toilet in the gallery? Isn't it artistic that I've got an old telly and put this on the old telly? Well, have you read Retramania by Simon Reynolds? No, I haven't. You should read that. It's about how basically past the 90s, everything became a library of culture.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And rather than there's nothing new coming through. But then also it's like, it's so cyclical that every 50 years or so, we say that we hate modern art. And then in 50 years from now, people will say that they love that often years ago. I think that's the big question is that you look back at Van Gogh and Picasso so and people would have hated them at the time, some of the stuff at the time,

and then you could view the fucking shit in the bed now and be like, oh, that's going to be like Van Gogh. But is it, because it does feel like everyone now is saying that we're living in a bit of a low point for art. And it's partly the commercialisation, that these stuff's going for 50 million. I don't think anyone's having to look back at like, oh, the Baroque poo on a floor.

So the Rubenesque poo. I mean, I don't know. But also, we aren't the only beings that can create images anymore, I think. What, like dogs can? Well, no, I just. AI means that we're not in control of

images being produced anymore in the same way and therefore images are just changing in terms of what their value to us we can't trust that something beautiful we see has been made by humans so it's going to change the whole way that we view it but oh look, no look at dogs campaign

and you know what I mean it's not that much worse than Van Gog's Sunflowers that's what I'd say anyway well Charlie what have you learned that you can still create great work even if you eat paint Yeah, that's not the lesson I want people to take away from this series

I don't endorse glue or paint is fine basically Right, okay Bebe you're at the Edinburgh Festival Oh yes For the whole month What's your show called? My show is called Swoon

It's about the pre-Ratholic Brotherhood Who are a group of Victorian painters And their muses And male artes and wanting to be amused but failing to be one. The complicated male artists. The complicated male artists, but also very similar themes to my large shows,

which is just essentially a girl wanting to express herself and failing. But also, your shows are basically naked gun films and how many silly jokes are in them. Yeah, you just got a bunch of accents. If you listen, yeah, you do some terrific accent. And that's coming from me. Yeah, she's a real accent artist too. Yeah, she really are.

So when you're talking about how it's about the young rap, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's really funny and silly. That's nice. Thank you. If anybody wants to come, it's at 540 PM. at the Jackdome, all of August. 540, the Jackdome, Rabbit, Dog.

Let's see it. We're going to chat, carry on chatting on the Patreon about the pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, which I, I know what that is. This is a bit of us history. She's been Bebby Cave. We'll see you all again on the patron or next week for a brand new topic from all of us here.

Goodbye. Goodbye.