Fin vs History - Chandler Bing & The Easy Peelers | Feudal Japan (Part 4)

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

How does Matthew Perry end up restoring the emperor of Japan? The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.  For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon ⁠patreon.com/fintaylor 00:00 Tokugawa He Emits Poo 07:11 Role of Daimyo  15:24 The Original Weeb 20:00 Closed Country Policy 28:48 Origin Story of Matthew Perry  34:24 kabuki minstrel show / sumo  36:27 Sippy Cup Privileges  39:10 She’s an Easy Peeler 44:31 Imperial Restoration Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit tellus.com slash total security to learn more. Conditions apply. This is the final part in our four parts in our four-parts on Feudal Japan. Yeah. A romp through feudal of Japan. Our romp through the.

Possibly the best attitude to suicide I've encountered so far. I was just thinking about Sapuku and whether if I committed Sapu though you do it is powerful and honorable in this context. And now you've lived in this world for a while. I now see it as honorable.

Yes. I can't understand it. Yeah. I wonder if the idea of it I'd like, but as soon as it goes in, I'd lose all my horror. Yes. Because you've just disembowed yourself.

So it'd be like, you know what? I'm going to take my own fucking life. Oh, my, oh, no. Oh, that's fucking. But then you have to move it across. Yeah. Because you can't, once you're there, oh no.

The whole point, no, but you're coming out of this from a, yeah, you're coming out from a Western mindset. Right, right, right, right. Other than the sound, the Japanese,

sort of, yeah. It's just one long Japanese noise, isn't it? But they're just doing that anyway. That's what I mean. Everyone's saying that anyway. That's them, a guy who just walked in

from the outside, you can hear him just going, and then he sees and he stops. Oh. That's him waiting for a bus. What about the guy with the speech impediment? That's what he's doing as he spookers himself. Everyone's like, oh my God, his lisp is awful.

Who's this guy, this Japanese guy with a lisp? Huh? Anyway, if you've not listened to the start, if you've not listened to the start of this series, you might have to catch some of this. And even if you have, that might not make sense. What you're doing getting part four. Yeah, come on. Fucking walk into the building on the ground floor, you idiots.

Anyway, so we're into the Edo period in Japan. Yeah. There is peace in Japan. Long peace. Two hundred fifty years of peace. Which means that for once they've stopped slashing each other, chopping each other's heads off, chopping their own heads off. They are still chopping their own heads off.

They are still chopping their own heads off. And now, as when war isn't happening, prostitution and... The theatre flourishes. Flourishes. Yeah. And so how is this system so robust? Well, Tokugawa Iemitsu.

Yeah. What does he emit? Sue. Sue. He's the third Tokugawa show. I wonder if they ever say that. Himit poo. It's always an easy.

If I do a poo jacket, it's a guaranteed laugh from fit. That's one of the most endearing traits you have. Me and my dad. You can't. I love language as far. my dad played me blazing saddles when I was about 12 you can't believe it anytime there's a poor fart joke

Finn cannot believe he was like pig and shit yeah I just love farting is so funny it's so funny because Charlie likes farting as well yeah why is it funny I have thought about this is easy as why it makes a it a sort of toot noise

it smells a shit and it comes out your ass brilliant win win win ding ding funny funny funny yeah but is it the fact that you can't control you're making a trumpet noise out your ass but you can't control of shit you're livid about it though

you fart you're livid you're livid you're livid you're livid you're like you do a fart and then you have to go and stare at the window I'm furious you would actually I got a speech of benefit

Japanese speech yeah it makes sense it doesn't think it's at all I think we've lost it's the usual journalistic integrity to this podcast has

right come on talk are you laughing at the food see look I'm laughing you can't believe that you'd call

I'm talking a tucker a minute's it's the purest sweetest thing about Phil it's not it's so

it's so stupid what you what have you made that noise now read that read that out loud Finn well no official

organisation recognises bodily function world records Bernard Clements Now that's a name Bernard Clements That's a Japanese name That's what the Japanese peasant

That's what the peasants are called Is that fucking, what's it Nigel Boulevard? What's his name? Ian. No, Gordon Crescent. Gordon Crescent, Ian Boulevard And Brent and Clements

If anyone's just joined now you've got absolutely no idea what's going on. Bernard Clemens of London is frequently cited for the world's longest recorded files. Frequently cited.

Cited and academic The footnote, I'd like to footnote Bernard Clemens, record-breaking farts. What's your citation on that? A reportedly lasting two minutes and 42 seconds. However, other unverified claims exist. You surprised me.

Including one for two minutes and 58 tickets. The first known as Mr. Charlie. And some sources also attribute the two minutes 42 second record to Mr. Methane. I've heard of Mr. Methane. This is a misnomer. Mr. Methane. He's on the circuit, right? He's a fellow

UK comedian. I'm pointing at me, like he's just on my circuit. Do you want the Fart Circuit? There's a black circuit and there's a fart circuit. So I do, I do want to draw a distinction. Mr. Methane is a professional flatulantist, right? Flatchaluntist? Fletchaluntist.

We've talked about that, haven't we? Because there's Roland the Fartre. But he, yes, Roland the Fartter is a long line of British flatulantists. But the thing about him is it's actually, he's trained his ass to make the noise, but it's not real farts. So it won't smell of poo.

It is, it's like doing that. So I don't know if you can, I would, I would stick with Bernard Clemens because Mr. Methan is, is a juicing, cooking the books.

Right, okay. But he's, so that guy's trained his bum to make a different sound to a normal fart, right? Well, sounds like a far.

So just back to my original question. Yeah, sorry, how hard can you customize your fart? This is question time. When you say original question, was that from part one? Two weeks ago. Yeah, yeah.

I'm still wondering. Right. Like, could you make it sort of talk or... No. Anyway, so Tokugawa Iemitpoo, the third Shogun. May I just say all of these long farts are all British? Well, thank God. Yeah.

God, that's something that... Because you've also got to get Ethel Caterham to the top of the charts. It's interesting as she also has this record as well. The oldest woman with the longest fart. Now, that's like holding the... That's like the magists. You know, you win all four majors. Well, you get a grand slam?

Yeah, it's a grand slam. If you get, if you get oldest living person and longest fart, that's like holding the US Open and Wimbledon and the Australian. Anyway, one can but dream. When did Bernard Clemens die? That's the real question. How old was he? And what did he die of?

Holding in a fart problem. Tokugawa Iemitsu, the third shogun. He's the one that formalizes this system called Sankin, Kotai, alternative attendance. Right. And this means that if you're one of his mates, one of his little boys, Daimio, whatever, you have to alternate living in your region, your constituency, and then the capital.

Year on, year off, but your family is in Edo, so essentially they're hostages. It's similar to the MPs. Well, yeah, but except if we made MPs live in, their families live in London. And Kirstarmer owns all the MP's families as sort of ransom. I guess so. I guess that's what's implied. He's just got them. He's got them there.

Right, right. And so if, like, if Andy Burnham's kicking off, Stama's like, your wife and kids are here. Yeah. So get back into line. Yeah. And this prevents the Diomeo from building independent power bases and ensures the sort of constant financial strengths.

They're always having to travel. And they got upkeep two houses. Yeah. And this stimulates commerce and infrastructure because people are moving around. They build like five roads, which is a lot of roads, I guess. Yeah.

It didn't sound that many. Blah, blah, blah. Money, people are circulating. You know, the economy starts to boom. Just from forced commutes. I guess so. Has built a whole economy. That's interesting.

But it locks them into dependence on Edo, which will weaken their autonomy and starts to integrate Japan into a more centralized. And that's why Tokyo's the thriving metropolis it is today. Yes, where everyone, I mean, that people still do commits suicide a lot in Japan nowadays, don't they? Japan's suicide forest.

You know what is? Yes, yeah, I do. Logan Paul obviously got cancelled for filming someone was in there but they just go there and it's like a more holy place to die and then they

they'll kill themselves in the forest and I think it's just a much more socially acceptable and there's also a lot of low people are much more on their own in Japan yes so I guess it's just like it's easy to kill yourself if no one cares

but also there's a you know as we were saying throughout this series the religious ethical foundation of their code is that life is transient and like sort of more disposable than us in Western cultures

where you're put so much as the individual you're in God's image yeah whereas this is Shinto is about nature it's an animalist religion you're part of a system so you can you can die and it doesn't really affect anything your reputation means more than your life yes so killing yourself

through ritual disembalment Brilliant. It's brilliant. Yeah. Whereas over here, we're like, what a waste? What a waste? Just have a Rennie?

Well, they used to be like, I think we've now, because of mental health, we've got much more acceptable of suicide, but Victorian attitude to suicide, like you'd be like, picketed if you were suicide.

Like at a funeral, like people would, it's an absolute disgrace for you. Did you say that we're much more, we're much more okay with suicide now because of mental health? Yeah. Should we're the opposite?

No, we're much more like he was going through something. Oh, right. See, tragedy. Yeah. Whereas Victorians would be like it's a sin. you know, it's a shame on the family. Right, okay, yeah, yeah. It's like the worst thing you can do.

Which here, it's like, brilliant. God. Wow. What a beautiful family. They've all killed themselves. You know, like, I idealized version of family on the back of like a Cheerio. You know, that fan. They're always like, they're all dead.

Yeah, but the Japanese version is just like the perfect family. Yeah. Anyway, where are we? Yes, we get to Sakoku, which is the closed country policy. Right. When's this? This is sort of the whole period. So in the 1630s.

Right. Should we place this? You haven't placed. Should we place 1630s? Right. So 1630s, it is after Henry the 8th dies of gout and then drips through his coffin and his dogs eat him. Do you know that? No.

That's what happened. He was so fat and he was kept in a coffin that his body like exploded in a gaseous sort of funk. Like a whale? On a beach. And then it like dripped down through the coffin and his dogs. ate a lot of him. Wow. When do they find that out?

Wikipedia maybe. Is that? I didn't know that. They had that around back then. I think I did learn that at school. Well, so you know how like when there's a whale on the beach they have to like pop it?

No, any of the eight dogs did not eat him. This is a piece of folklore on a prophecy from, right, fair enough. Well, that's ruined. Yeah. Don't look things up. And you don't have to include that. We don't include that. So it's after, it's after that didn't happen.

Yeah. It was after, yeah. after that it was after that happened and it was before the guy who made it up

said it happened right brilliant perfectly placed perfectly placed yeah but who's on the throne in the 1630s

in the he meets poo no in the UK oh sorry 1630s is this well that'll be Charles the first or James the

Charles the first yeah yeah so it's in the it's in the it's in the build up to the Civil War right

so between 1633 and 6039 the Shoguner issues the so-called seclusion decrees so they basically it's like incremental ban stopping the boats really

they're big some of the big stop of the boat stop the boat but what's fascinating about this is that Japan stopped the boats and they do and I'm not saying that we should

I'm not trying to make this political no of course not not a political person but I'm just saying that it's like stop the buses I'm saying I'm saying that

part of the reason they have such a unique, distinct you know, alien culture that's so different to anywhere else is because... The boats are stopped. They stop the boats. Yeah. And they go completely inwards.

It's like... It's allowed to grow so independently. Britain is a global country from the 16th century onwards. Yeah. Right? And so Japan shuts up shop and then, you know, they're doing some pretty fruity stuff with octopuses. Japan's a weirdo's basement, right?

That's what I mean. No one's checking in on it. No one's checking in. What are you doing down there? What you've been doing that? That's fucking tentacle porn, fucking young boys. Fuck me.

Christ. You've come to see some daylight? Yeah. No. Oh, he's got a speech impediment. But I guess Japan is the argument for and against globalization. Yeah.

You know? So. Because they are weirdos, but there's some absolute awesome stuff. Oh, they're weirdos. They're weirdos, but there's some fucking sick shit that comes out of that. 16, the Japanese abroad are forbidden to return.

That's interesting. So expats, you can't come back. The construction of ocean-going vessels is prohibited. So only coastal shipping is allowed. But do you know what's kicked off this really aggressive policy? Yeah, it's two things. So in 1588, when Hideyoshi had done his sword hunt, he tried to ban all weapons.

But in trading with the foreigners, the foreigners had been trading guns with everyone. So people could still have guns because the foreign influence. Also, we haven't really talked about this but when the Portuguese arrived they tried to spread Christianity guy called Francis Javier Right, yeah

This is what Shogun has got a lot of this stuff Christianity and Nandoes and all that shit And Japanese are like, we don't like Nandoes We've got Karagi Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah And so Christianity is seen as a rival You know, it's a rival religion And so they crack down on Christianity

Quite hard at the same time Because also it's like the country's been And also they would never end up being colonised. It probably was the right move at this point to be that aggressive. Yeah, but that's what that means is that they're never colonised, but they're always taking elements of other countries and making it their own. Because if you look at other countries in the region,

letting, like, if you look at like India, it's not the region, but letting you know, India, Japan, East of Oxford. It's all India. Reading, India, Japan. Yeah, anything east of Oxford's India. Anything west is Colombia.

The Mughals and India, they were trading partners are a lot of Western and then it created like grassroots that you could then colonize from. Yeah, yeah. Because Japan cut even any of that shit off. Yeah. There was not a foot hold. So it was probably a smart thing. Maybe it's just a phase you're going through. You'll get over it. I can't help you with that. The next appointment is in six months. You're not alone. Finding mental health support shouldn't leave you feeling more lost. At CamH, we know how frustrating it can be trying to access care. We're working to build a future where the path to support is clear,

and every step forward feels like progress, not another wrong turn. Visit camh.ca to help us forge a better path for mental health care. Tim's new Cravable Raps are made for the times your boss said the what now, or your teacher mentions that thing I'm a bob. Need to pick me up. Snack back to reality with Tim's new craveable wraps available in Chipotle or ranch, plus tax at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. So can we look at the first web?

You know what a webe is? I do know what a weep is. So that's like a white guy. You're a weeb. My old flatmate. I'm a bit of a weeb for sure. Yeah. But a lot of British guys, especially.

British autistic men go out to Japan. They absolutely love Japanese. The first real weeb, I mean, look at this. Look at this, 80, 90 week. That's a nice one. Yeah, yeah. Look at him. Let's have a...

Look at that. Look at his eyes. Look at his eyes. Original weep. He's got a neck beard. Yeah. Of course he does. Describe it.

So it's a fucking English-looking bloke. That is the kind of. composite of our average patron in their chosen uniform throat beard full samurai outfit yeah that is one of our patrons at a wedding yeah they've taken their purple fedora off as a mark of respects that's it's black tie is it oh yeah no I know exactly what I'm aware well this is isn't this is what shogun's based on based on James something first English in the first English samurai so in Japan first yeah English from William Adams to navigate to the 1600 so around this time after a ship the lift was wrecked to Japan

he became an influential figure in the country getting the patronage of that so he became like an advisor let's have a look at his face First Western Samurai Yeah so he is the original weep Yes I guess so People have done this since

Is he close to Dodgy Nobunaga Yeah but they can't have been Because he arrived after he dies He becomes not Nobunaga So Shogun they blend a lot of history It's EASU yeah But he they basically use him He becomes like member of the court

And he's just an advisor Yeah As an aside, I went to the Transport Museum yesterday for my son's birthday and it's mainly kids there and then, but then you really notice there are guys with throat beards and fleeces on. No kids?

No kids. Who are who are basically waiting to drive the simulators that the kids are on. Right. And they're just there like and fuck sake. And then it's their turn and they just push through it too wrong. This question is yeah.

No, I got recognised a lot. Recognise a lot. Can I shake your hand? Can I just shake your hand? hand. Anyway, so the suddenly there's a kind of paranoid atmosphere about anyone who's Christian or Portuguese or anything. And the Italian, an Italian missionary, Giovanni Isidotti, is smuggled into Japan in 1708, interrogated in prison and eventually buried alive. Yeah. We haven't talked about there's a lot of bird, there's a lot of boiling alive actually at this stage of age. What the Mongols did, so I think it's an Asian thing. Oh, is it? Yeah. Okay, I can believe

that. And that's how you make a, it's a hot pot. Hot pot. Yeah. You just chat wherever you want in vegetables, your enemies. Italian bloat. So Yemitsu expels missionaries, bans Christianity outright, and then he builds a floating artificial harbour in Nagasaki

but not like a floating brothel. Not a floating world, no, the opposite of that, a floating dockyard. Right, right. Very, very real world. Okay, yeah. That's just outside Nagasaki and so the only trade that is allowed anywhere is from Nagasaki. But it's like, it's like a open, what is like

Guantamano Bay where it's like international waters. Yeah, kind of, but they only allow... It's like a quarantine for stinky foreigners. Yeah, there's like a quarantine of artificial island where the... And I think it's just the Dutch that are allowed to still trade with it. And Japanese think foreigners really are stinky and that's a prevalent today. So like a lot of my friends who went out there, if you sit, they'll, if you sit next to them in public transport, they'll move because they think white people are stinking. It's such a racist culture.

And what I find fascinating... But we kind of respect it for its races. But that's what I find fascinating is that the anti-immigration here is viewed as so knuckle dragging and yet in Japan it's so anti-immigrant and so racist. I think it's because

they've been it's more like they've been that's kind of their culture has been so preserved so you understand there's something to protect but here it's globalization is so entwined I know I know it's just fascinating how if that happens on the scale of racist stinkiness yeah

white people are stinky yeah you know we're normally we're looking down, we don't realize there's people looking down on us. Yeah, exactly. It's like, it's a real... Some of us are in the gutter looking up at the stars. That's why we stink. That's what we smell.

We're in the gutter. Japan looking at us going, oh, do, do it. So Christianity is outlawed because he doesn't really see it as a religion, more as a kind of subversive threat. Right. There's a peasant revolt that's mercilessly crushed by the shogunate. Yeah, so it's interesting that Christianity, it's so... It's already had its hooks in Japanese culture.

It's been there for about 100 years. Yeah, I guess so. This is what the Scorsese film Silence is about, which we'll be reviewing on the Patreon, which I think is an absolute abomination to cinema. So the Shogun, there's like a coalition of disaffected Ronin and Christian peasants. They revolt.

They fortify themselves at Harrah Castle in Minamishabara. Yep. I think you've got to do the voice. You've got to. I think you've got to do the voice. Yeah. It means you can fly over the... Minimshabara.

Yeah. You can't be like Mingamishabara. No. The show going to respond with 125,000 troops, including artillery support from the Dutch. And so after a prolonged speech.

Well, I don't understand about this. This is what I mean. It's that the... So the Dutch of Portuguese have been fighting over the East. They're the two big colonial powers in the East, Indonesia, the Spice Islands,

all that sort. Those are the two big ones. Now, is that why the Dutch are giving their artillery to fight at Christian peasants? Because the Christian peasants are Catholic. Yeah, they, yeah. So Catholic, probably sectarian.

Celtic range of sort of stuff. Well, because in Shogun, the whole, the Englishman turns up and he fucking hates the Portuguese because he's at war with Portugal. Right, right, right, right. But that's what I mean is that the Japanese are always using foreigners on their own terms. So some stuff does get through.

So the culture we talked about last episode is obviously the sumo and the boring theatre and the prostitutes, whatever. But when it comes to, like, medicine, a Dutch guy arrives. They originally find some like, manuals or some scripts on a Dutch ship with like Western medicine and obviously at this point the Japanese are like getting people to walk on nails you know they're giving people dried herbs

yeah yeah whatever they love that shit but um the Dutch have got Western medical knowledge and so the Dutch doctors um basically start to impress the Japanese with the kind of anatomical precision Japanese have Chinese medicine exactly which is Kuku land yeah yeah It's like, give them some fucking matcha powder. Yeah, it's quoky. Yeah, it's nonsense. Yeah. And so, but then they start to realize that all the Dutch people are getting ill and then surviving.

And they're like, fucking, they're going, what? Dutch people are getting ill. Dutch people who get ill are then surviving because the Dutch have medicine. Right. And the Japanese go, here? Right. Huh? Uh.

Yeah. And then they get the Dutch to do an anatomical, what's it called? drawing no dissection dissection and so there's a criminal called old lady

old lady green tea who is dissected publicly and she reveals the internal organs and all this stuff that contradicts Chinese texts and sort of spurs an interest in Western medicine

now I feel you could have worked that they've been chopping each other they've been cutting their guts open for thousands of years. How have they not worked out that what's in there? Because, maybe because the class of people

that deal with their bodies are outcasts. Yeah. Because it's like prostitutes are... Yeah. And then Tanners, butchers. They're all at the bottom. So I guess all medical knowledge

would have been kind of like confined. They're just like rambling homeless people. The people are saying, actually the guts are like this. Yeah. Yeah. And so the same thing, thing happened with astronomy. So Copernican theory arrives in the 18th century. So this refines

calendars. So there's an intellectual channel called Rangakakou, which means Dutch learning. What does intellectual channel mean? It's not a TV channel. No, it's like a movement. Right, right, right, right, right. Which is like Dutch, so the Dutch are kind of feeding the Japan bits of knowledge. So it's like Japanese weeps for the Dutch. What's a Dutch? Yeah, Dutch weeb. A dweeb. A dweeb. Shweeble Adwib Adwib O'Dweb

Tori's a shot your assholes It's a good Dutch accent Yeah Once a year The Dutch East India Company representatives Would trek 90 days

To Edo from Nagasaki Baring gifts Bain before the Shogun and then departing And in return They retained access to trade And refueling rights And they were also

required to submit Annual Reports on World Affairs So it's kind of like an intelligent service For the Shogun Yeah What's in, yeah, it's interesting that they're so good at this

because I feel a lot of countries If they shut up shop There's more a lot of countries See bits of other people's cultures And don't integrate it successfully It's interesting But who are Japan most racist against? Who do they like least?

Chinese. Right. No, that's quite English and French There's probably it's probably black people There's so few black people there Yeah Well, yeah. But as in like...

You didn't even consider it. No, but I mean, well, obviously, if you put a Jew in Japan, there'll be someone who's anti-Semitic. Right. You know, because people love to hate Jews. A Jew in Japan? A Jew in Japan. The Finn Taylor story.

Ju-Pan. Jupan. But, no, the Japanese and the Chinese fucking hate each other. Yeah. Famously. Yeah. All might be going well in Japan.

They've got these theaters. They've got these prostitutes. The Dutch The Dutch are knocking about, Decent. Decent. It's decent. It's class.

I like this. This is all right. Theater and brasses. Absolutely. Danny Dyer's there. This is fucking quality. You've got brasses. Salt.

You've got theatres. You got everything you need here. They stick raw fish on rice. It's fucking whackado here. Anyway, the samurai have been obviously, they're now just like, they're basically civil servants now. They're not warring.

Yeah. They've been cucked. They've been completely cucked. Yeah. There's a big famine. But now. Yeah, okay, yeah, go on. Well, go on, what were you going to say?

Well, it's just interesting, the samurai merchants who have been the bottom of society. Yes. As money becomes much more of a thing, and private holdings become much more of a thing, basically. Samurai increasingly in debt to merchants. Yes. So it's on this respected kind of warrior class.

Yeah. Now constantly having to ask money for these bottom of the bottom merchants. And so this power pyramid is sort of changing. Yeah. When you think about the modern Japan and the salary man and the, you know, and the boom of Japanese business so the merchant is now right at the top of Japanese society

but it's a lonely Japanese businessman I mean there's the thing isn't it a Japanese businessman is like a prostitute's best friend isn't it? Is that a saying? It feels like it's the same. That's the lyric from a sign. You said that one.

Japanese businessmen. Go on a photo series of sleeping salary men Tokyo. Have you seen this? Yeah, I've seen this. I mean the Japanese businessman is like a, that's a, that's a sort of almost like a memetic phrase

the Japanese businessmen. They all dress the same. It's a lonely guy. So these people who worked so late they missed the last train. Yeah, they fall asleep. It looks all right. It doesn't it that bad. Yeah, it looks, yeah. If you just submit. It's only because they're Japanese, it looks all right. Do you know what I mean?

This is probably a bit of racist, but Asian sleeping in public, they make it look a lot better. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think if you see a white boat passed out like that, it does not look as fucking chill as a Japanese or Chinese bloke doing it. I don't know if that's racism. Oh, I think that's, I think that's just observation.

That one looks fucking sexy. It's got that one there in the middle with his, well, legs open. He's asking for it. He's got his hand behind his, yeah, Japanese business getting, getting tugged off in the street. I imagine sometimes. It must be.

Yeah, it's not quite the same. Look, it's that guy. It's that guy on a fucking southwest train. Yeah, he's just falling asleep. Yeah, it's not as good. But, you know, I mean, the Japanese businessman is a kind of, you know, that's the prostitute's mark, isn't it?

That's who they're after. Yeah. Wealthy, lonely. Yeah, that's their bread and butter. They're used to paying for companionship. Yeah. Because that's just their culture. Yeah.

So there's a big famine in 1833. Caused, I guess that must be rice. So the daimio starts to become more powerful. Right. And the shogunate weakens because I guess the daimio are on the ground and they're trying to help. Right. So they got more support from the people.

And the merchant wealth starts to destabilise the class system, as you were saying. So there's a, there's a call from the Mito daimio to quote, revere the emperor, expel the barbarians. Okay. So there's already people are not liking how much foreign trade there is, I guess. Even though there's, you know, foreigners are bad. And also, you can't leave Japan. Yeah.

If you're Japanese, that's another thing. You can't leave Japan. Right. Yeah. So anyway. Hello, I'm Doreen Linsky. And I'm Ian Dunn. We're the hosts of origin story, the podcast about the history that shapes our political discourse today.

Our eighth season is all about the story of socialism, from its earliest experiments to the present day. From Marx to Mao, Lenin to the Labour Party, Gramsci to Gorbachev, we'll be exploring the people, the events and the ideas behind socialism and communism. So please join us as we journey through an idea that has changed the world. You can listen to us or watch us on video, on Spotify, your regular podcast app, or now on YouTube. We get to the middle of the 1850s. The interesting origin story of Matthew Perry. Who knew? I didn't know this.

Yeah, so this is Matthew Perry before he got friends. Before he became, he was Chandabing. He turns up on a ship in Japan and he's like, could you be any more Japanese? Who? Could you be any more Japanese? Commodore Matthew Perry. Right.

He is an American, Captain the European. U.S. Navy. Yeah. And at this point, America is, you know, the steamships. So what year is this, 1854? 1853, 1854. America is just before the Civil War. Right.

But basically, they think, like, Japan's just over the ocean. So, like, that's in our backyard. Right. We need to make terms with them. Yeah. So this kind of beginning of the United States and Japan's relationship. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. This is the long road to Pearl Harbor. Yeah. How are they doing now? The night night bomb. How are they doing now as a relationship? Very, I mean, very good. Japan's, America's, America's,

suck. Yeah, I mean, it's in their constitution that they basically Americans. Yeah, they folded in, the American military bases all over Japan, they're culturally completely tired. And basically they just said, they just completely committed to it and it worked out pretty well for them. So he is chosen by the US government, Matthew Perry, to open up Japan and they want to secure coaling stations for American whaling and trade in the Pacific. They need somewhere to, like, refuel

if they're going to be a global trading power, establish a foothold to compete with the European empires. So he arrives in Edo Bay, Tokyo Bay, July 1853, with four ships, including two steam-powered, quotes, black ships. And he

delivers President Fillmore's letter, which demands an opening of ports and the protection of American sailors. And Japan, like, freaks out. I think, is this the one where he fires, he fires fireworks off the, he fires fireworks, it's Independence Day in America. Just to celebrate it.

So he just arrived and just immediately starts firing fireworks off the front of the ship. And so all the Japanese are looking on like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. What? Because they've never seen gunpowder like this. A communal, like a million people. Yeah, a million people at one go. Yeah, yeah.

And also the display of modern steam-powered warships completely shocks everyone. Because this is the thing they've realized they're like, oh yeah, we've been isolationist, we've got no foreigners, we've got them under the thigh. We've got our own culture. Big fat guys are wrestling. We're eating stinky fish. Brilliant.

And then someone turns up and you think, oh, we've actually missed out on 200 years of intellectual innovation. So they're all, they're suddenly, they're all a bit like, eh, fuck. Yeah, we're a bit vulnerable here. Perry refuses to meet low-level officials,

insists on only meeting the Shogun or representative. And then a few days after Perry lands, Shogun I-Oshhi dies. Right. I don't think that's suspicious. I don't think so. Right. So he presents diamonds and promises to return next year.

And he needs an answer. He wants the Japanese to open up. Emotionally? Emotionally. He thinks they're too repressed. They are too repressed. And then Perry becomes, there's something about the black ships being like,

the Japanese think they're dragons or something? Right. Okay. Because they're like breathing fire. Sure. And Perry becomes his kind of nightmare fuel for the Japanese because he's indicative of like another world. Yeah.

He's depicted in Uki. Kiyoi, Ukui, prince. Ukioi, the wooden prince. He's depicted as a Tengu-like goblin with a comically oversized feature. I don't know which feature that is. Knows? Knob.

Features. Features. Yeah. Because America's are big fuckers. They are big fat fuckers, yeah. Jowley. Yeah. So in February 1854, he comes back with even more ships.

He anchors again in Eddow Bay. And Japanese officials now realize that they're kind of impossible to resist globalization, which is sort of what happens to everyone, really, isn't it? Yeah, but also if they didn't adapt, they would have got fucked by countries that did. Yeah. Like, so they realize they're in survival. They've got to. They realize they have to kind of chat to the guy.

So they enter into negotiations at Kanagawa. Yeah. And at this point, the Shogun is already weakening because Britain and Russia, they are. By this point, it's the great game, isn't it? Absolutely fucking China over a barrel. Yes. This is the European Wars. Yeah.

But this is Britain and Russia, great gang, Crimean War era. Yeah, yeah. So they're kind of two big players at the moment. He kind of is like, the new Shogun is stunned. So I guess Russia's on the border with Japan, sort of. The new Shogun is stunned by the kind of technology that Perry has. Yeah. And so, yeah, rumours circulate that his black ships breathe smoke like demons.

Yeah. The Japanese public think they're all like supernatural. blah blah blah blah so the Americans present the Japanese with a miniature steam locomotive a telegraph apparatus small arms 100 gallons of whiskey

that's where the Japanese fixation starts um clocks books about the United States the Japanese respond with bronze ornaments silk porcelain goblets and a collection of seashells

nice and if you if you hold up a seashell from Japan you hear oh yeah yeah um This is cultural exhibitions. The American sailors put on a minstrel show. That's lovely.

I think I've done quite well in Japan. They would have had no idea what's going on. Minstrel show. I don't even know what you're making fun of, lad. Yeah. Who are these people? But then I guess you're a minstrel show

and then Kabuki Theatre. That's like Ying and Yang, isn't it? White and black. We need a white version of that. We need a kabuki minstrel show. I do love minstrels for cinema, minstrels and popcorn. Well, that's like Kabuki and the Kabuki Minstreltsrel show.

Minstrels and popcorn. That's our double act. A Kabuki Minstrel show. Wouldn't that be amazing? You're doing a minstrel song and I'm there in Kabuki going, Where are you? Two white guys.

Two white guys. And people are just coming going, I don't know about this. It's so offensive. I don't really know what to be offended by. I don't know whose team to take. What on earth's going on? So in return to the minstrel show,

oh, here we go. A number of high-ranking sumo wrestlers performed feats of strength and held exhibition matches. That's nice. Is there a sumo computer game? Because there should be. Sumo 24.

Yeah. If you like, yeah. Is that the Japanese equivalent of FIFA? Prior evolution sumo. I'd play that. Yeah, it's like to do that. Go on, get it up. Get on the screen.

Oh, well, that's fun. Well, the fat guy eating a burger. I mean, that's just like brain rock. I want proper, like, sumo. Is that not on PS5? Sumo PlayStation games. video game it'd be fun like having that yeah that menu where you customize

your sumo look at this oh yeah sick look at that that'd be great I'd love to play that do you want to describe it for listeners oh it just looks fucking sick let's just turn on video it looks lush I want to play sumo game anyway

so this is what the sumos do to show their strength for Matthew Perry they carry heavy rice sacks one wrestler lifted a sack with his teeth another performs assaults while holding a sack. Perry was largely unimpressed writing in his diary that the wrestlers were more like stall fed bulls than human beings. Anyway, so Perry's just there turning his nose up at these massive Japanese people slap into each other with rice bags. So in 1854,

the convention of Kanagawa is signed. And this is one of the first unequal treaties. This is where the Shogun realized they can't really resist the naval power. And so this opens up ports for American ships for the supplies and repairs and it also means that I think if Americans commit a crime in Japan they can't be arrested

Really? Oh it gets For yeah foreigners get special treatment I think And it's this starts the similar treaties with Britain, Russia and the Netherlands They're held to the laws of the US Not Japan Interesting

It's crazy isn't it Can you just do a trolley dash? Yeah well yeah I guess That's what people did. So interestingly, although America start the opening up, it's Britain that properly muscle in, because in the 1860s, obviously, there's the civil war. So America's slightly occupied.

Yeah. So what do the Brits do? Hey? What do the Brits do? I don't know. Okay. I've got no. Sorry, I asked.

Yeah. Do you know? No. Well, one of us should. Yeah. Charlie? No. No, no.

A clue. Not a clue. Not a clue. But the unequal treaties erode the Tokugawa legitimacy. Yeah. concessions are seen as humiliating, you know, in the space of a few years, you've gone from all the foreigners that have to live in Nagasaki

to just all these Americans and Brits everywhere. American tourists. They're funny parks in the Sippy Cup. They're big gulps. You know, there's inflation. You know, I had a nightmare. I woke up and I was basically, because we just moved flat.

I decided to move again and buy a place and I bought it in suburban America and it was a huge house. And then I was moving in with my mom and my sister. And as soon as I walked in, I realized I made a huge mistake. There's like a yellow bus outside and there was all that suburban American moms. And it was really horrible. Sounds like my dream.

It's absolutely terrible. I was really upset. And I was like, I was happy where I've just moved to. Why did I decide to buy a place in suburban like Florida or America? With my mom and my sister? No, no. They helped me move stuff and they were just like trying to be nice. Right.

Like we could tell us who he walked in and like, why are you bought this place? It's like tacky and like, I just realized. I really don't want to live in suburb of America. Hey! You know, I really don't like... You know the guy who makes Mrs. Brown's boys, Brendan O'Carroll. He, rather than buy one massive house

with all his money, he bought a whole street in Florida. He ends like a whole cul-de-sac. To what end? Well, all his mates, he just puts them up. He's like, oh, you've got any room? Yeah, he just come and stay in one of my houses on my street.

He bought a whole street. Isn't that mad? That is mental. Yeah. Yeah, just that sort of America. I didn't even realize it in myself, but I think to Melbourne America I'd actually really struggle with.

Right. that sort of America. We then need to get to the Satsuma Wars. You heard about this? No. So, I guess this is where Satsumas come from. Right. Does this is where Satsumas come from?

Fat Sumos. Not Fat Sumos. Not the Fat Sumo Wars. Yeah, the Satsumas originated in Japan. Now, is a Satsuma, there's a tangerine, there's a Clementine, there's a Satsuma, there's a baby orange. You're just naming my ex-girlfriends. Baby Orange.

Hey, no, come on. That was a mistake on my paper. she said she was a full orange she said she was a full orange are they all the same thing sorry is sats soon yeah I've got a type easy peeler

is that she was an easy peeler yeah I don't know what that means I don't know what that means that's absolutely disgusting easy pealers she's an easy peeler

don't worry love you're not my type you're too pithy I only go after easy pealers anyway I mean is it the small orange Is that a Japanese eventual

Is it just the satsuma Is that a type of small orange Is the clementine the same as a satsuma Is the tangerine the same as a satsuma They're all different They're all different types of orange Right so Okay

Fine So satsuma But the invention of the small orange Is not Japanese I don't know if it's an invention I think it's just a type of orange that comes from Satsuma in Japan. Let's have a look.

The first ever on. No. Charlie's Googled the original type of orange. No. What was the question? What was the question? No, the question was,

look, you didn't think in the other one, but again, you're googling like Yoda. Satsumas come from where? Go on, go off images. Satsumas originated in Asia, likely China and we're developed

into their modern form. Yes. So now I'd like to know is how do you develop a small orange into a satsuma right nurture it I guess you just like

you pluck it early rub it and yeah kiss it Charlie you stop kissing an invisible orange yeah right

how do you rear an orange oh fucking hell how do you rear an orange no you must grow it how do you how do you evolve an orange it's not a Pokemon

from a normal one orange to a different different one. Not different, like, Charlie. I'm trying.

It doesn't evolve in the way that Pokemon evolve. Even AI is sure if I can... Again, I say this again, Charlie is single-handedly turning machine learning back

decades. How do you interbreed... How do you interbreed in orange? Is that the question sort of thing? No. No, the question is... I think we leave this. No, no, no, no.

I guess you just like get a bit of one seed and then put... No, Charlie, the question is, there is a thing called the Anglo-Satsuma wars what I'm trying to get to. And I want to know if Satsuma, the only other time I've heard that word

is in reference to an orange. So I want to know, is that where Satsuma's come from? Just Satsumas come from. That's where Satsumas come from. Right. Yeah, they're Japanese. They come from that province, yeah. Yeah, right.

Brilliant. Yeah. Was that the question? I think so. It didn't sound like. I think you made up several more questions in your heads. So anyway, the Anglo Satsumo War. Yeah.

Satsuma war is in the 1860s. Right. This is when we're being real bullies. right this is a Britain's in it's bullying it we've never been

better we've been giving everyone who even looks at us twice a black eye right yeah

so they we're attempting to extract compensation from the satsumas because there'd been an

incident the namamu namamugi what's the Namamugue incident so I think a British merchant

had been killed by someone in the satsumas right got killed by an orange it was not

killed by an orange it was not killed by an orange anyway So the act Which violates the The treaty The local treaties That the British then get the boats

They go up to the Satsuma harbour And they just start pat-firing I think It's classic move It's classic move You kill one of ours I'll level in Oh here we go

It's on the research The Satsum is like Yeah The Satsumas What the Satsuba's doing Fitch of being oranges Yeah So four British subjects

Are attacked while riding By Satsuma retainers For Failing to dismount In deference To a procession for a diamond Right So this is actually It's actually a very good example of the tensions.

Yeah. There are more foreigners suddenly allowed in, and there's a daimio who's done a procession, and he's obviously all his orange mates are like, you've got to bow at the time. Easy peoners let. The easy peoners are wet. And the Brits, like, that's just fucking oranges. I'm not bound for that. Anyway, the Brits bombard Kagoshima, which is a port in the Satsuba region.

Yeah. They start firing back on foreign ships. It provokes a multinational naval retaliation by Britain, France, the Dutch, the U.S. White Guy Alliance. Yeah. So it's sort of starting to be,

it's sort of the closest Japan ever gets to the kind of colonialism that China had. Yeah. There's then, there's lots of incidents of foreigners being killed. Henry Huskin, a Dutch born American interpreter for the US allegation, he's stabbed to death by anti-foreign samurai in Edo. Right. Anyway, the final shogun, the last shogun.

is named Tokugawa Yoshinobu. He attempts to do some reforms, but he's unable to overcome the foreign pressure. He reluctantly resigns in 1867, nominally handing power to the emperor, and then in 1868, the imperial court declares the shoguner abolished, causing open war,

and then we'll wrap up. So basically, there's then a war called the Boschian... Bosh! The Bosch! Bosh! Big John comes in. Basho. He just sees the emperor.

Bash! Oh, get a compliment. His best Bosch's, I just, I can't start watching them. When he's got, the one we've got... Career highlights. His career highlights of his best other Bosch's, I can't handle them. There's too good.

There's one where he gets a jack of potato up. And he goes, Bash! Like, he really goes for it. Yeah, this is the first white people Japan have ever seen it. It's like they've never seen anything quite like this guy. The massive fat guy, Jack Potato, going, bash!

Um, anyway, uh, the Bosch, the Bosch war, blah, blah, blah, uh, it's all, this is, I mean, we're not going to, it's just too big to get into now. I think, well, when we do our series on Imperial Japan, we'll get into this, but the lead up to why they went so mental. Essentially, uh, there is a thing called the Meiji restoration. Right. What is that? Is that when they, that's the, the emperor, it comes back to power. Yes. And the Edo, um, is renamed Tokyo. So after this long period of the emperor, being symbolic and because the emperor I think in like the 1200s or something became the shogun the shogun became the powerful yes person in charge the emperor became symbolic after the emperor had been in charge for thousands of years before yeah or hundreds of years yeah and then for like 800 years 600 years it wasn't and it was restored here and that's when the emperor became like it was in world war two not only the spiritual leader but the actual leader but I guess to to sum up you know

all the undercurrents of you know the night night bomb they start here because the culture that sees death as a sort of you're so detached from life and death that death is an irrelevance you can fight on the kind of code of honor of just dying for a greater cause of loyalty loyalty beyond death well the japanese soldier who was found in 1974 in on an island still thinking World War II was going on exactly the reason they dropped the night night bomb is because Japan just will not go to bed of their own accord because that's all this developing in this period. Yeah.

Because they view death very differently. Yeah. And also it's because they were shut in their basement for 300 years. And also, you know people who like discover drink or drugs later in life, they don't get out their system at school or uni? It's like they're really like

I don't know, really austere and then they realize like 25, or even their 30s. Basically Japan discovers Coke in their mid-30s and so they're just trying to get everything all those experiences done quickly and that's why they go fucking mad

that's why the high five of nine king happens would you say it's similar to the Vikings in terms of the kind of death glory attitude or is it a little bit so the Vikings one is more like need to die now Vikings is more about glory and

whereas this is like avoiding shame yeah yeah this is loyalty it's like the inverse sort of, yeah. Whereas the Vikings more about like, like, Vikings are about dying in battle. It's not about suicide. But Japan is also one of the few non-Western countries that is never colonised. Yeah. And so when it is, the empire is restored, the emperor's restored, it then goes right, well, we're going to be an imperial power. Because we've never been under the thumb. Yeah. So it doesn't have the same kind of, um, independence mindset that other countries are fighting for. It's already,

an independent country. It's already resisted foreigners. Foreigners are already second-class to them. So they then go out. It's an imperial power. Yeah, it's an imperial power. But anyway, by the mid-19th century, the shoguner is completely undermined

by foreign intrusion, famine, debt. And although the Sukoku shielded Japan, it left them completely unprepared for Chandler Bing to arrive in a steamboat. And... And a dragon. And basically within a generation, Japan's completely transformed.

it goes full Western modernises and then commit some of the most heinous high-fives has ever been I think that brings us to the end of our whistle stop tour through feudal Japan thank you for sticking with us throughout all the accents a lot of fun yeah good to get back to this podcast bread and butter

exactly after too long in post-war Britain if you'd like more more you say you can join the patron where for three pounds a month you can join a community of people who also can't read or write, but they do have 3D printers. I'm on tour this November.

Do check it out. Hiratia's on tour. And we will be back next week for a brand new topic. Goodbye. But thanks very much for listening. We'll see you next time. Goodbye.

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