Fin vs History - Cult of Zero Personality | Pol Pot (Part 4/4)

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

The Regime falls, and yet Pol takes his boys back to the Jungle and carries on as before. Is this the most unsatisfying end to a dictator in history?   The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.  For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon ⁠patreon.com/fintaylor CHAPTERS: 00:00 No problem 04:58 Shutting Up Shop 09:32 Pot calling the kettle Chinese 13:13 The Banality of Anal 18:06 Pol’s Personal life 21:01 70s nostalgia 24:04 Failed embalming (Pol Pong) 30:34 Paul Potts 31:30 What has Charlie Learnt? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time. Play Ojo? Great idea. Feel the fun with all the latest slots in live casino games and with no wagering requirements. What you win is yours to keep groovy. Hey, I won! Boating will begin when passenger fisher is done celebrating.

19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned by your gambling or that if someone close, you call 1866-3-3-1-2-60 or visit comixonterio.ca. Welcome back to Part four On our terrifying tour Grimm, the grim mixed grill of the Cambodian genocide We genuinely shocked Charlie here, to be honest

Part one, Charlie said Pop, can I shake your hands? Part three is going, guys, I don't like this guy this is grim and that's because he never knows what we're about

but how sincerely you got scared like you're in a horror ride I've got a bad feeling about it when did you start not liking it was it when they started

eating their own poo with the only thing there which was a spoon the poo and the poo and like the drowning stuff with the bodies

I don't like any of that but it's kind of as bad as it gets the bit before that where you just get to wear black clothes and a spoon that's right

I love that simple back to base Yeah. Salt of the earth. Salt of the earth these guys. You know, they're not capitalist pigs like us. No. So in our last episodes, things got a bit fruity.

As I said, this cunt's absolutely crackers. Yeah. He's a verified fruit loop, pole pot. But again, you know, we spent three episodes on him. We don't really know much about him because he's in the shadows, you know? Yeah. He's pulling some strings and he is, his policies are very famous, but he's not. Yeah, because I guess what, what?

It jumps out to me with the Paul Pot thing. Maybe it's a misconception, but Hitler would have toured the fucking death camps and would have got all the plans through about them and was so involved. Was Pol Pot just saying any enemies of the people kill them and then it sort of became like this? Or was it very much like his edict?

Trickle down genocide. Yeah. That's what you're saying. Well, he says... Like how truly... Was it like... Is he in the jungle not seeing it as much? He's in Pondon Pem.

He's in a big, nice colonial house on the porch and the nice chair and he says this is after the genocide largely unrepentant he says please understand

with my high level of work I only made decisions concerning the very important people I didn't supervise the lower ranks look at me now do you think I'm a violent person so as far as my conscience

of my mission were concerned there was no problem no problem or like that I like how Liam Leeson would say it no problem no problem that's how Liam Mason would say

so he just says no problem yeah do there's any problem with the Cambodian genocide and your part in it. No problem, not problem. Yeah. And if that makes you queasy, you must remember I'm doing the accent

of a white person. So seeing as you got livid at the person who asked forgiveness, how do you think that compares to Paul Potts saying, no problem, no problem? I prefer no problem. Because it's like the other guy's just... But there was problem.

There was big problem. Many problems. But like, it's like him not knowing... I'd say he's quite problematic. Paul pot I can respect that more than I can this sort of weird

football manager apology fuck off fuck off yeah the boys were just outplayed tonight we just didn't get it obviously the buck stops at me

I take full responsibility for the way the team's performing back to the training ground first thing Sunday the fans were great you know sorry they had to see it but yeah yeah I don't like that

no too formal so this episode we'll be dealing with the collapse of democratic camp of cheer the Utopian Society where money was banned

where all you had was a spoon and some pyjamas and where schools were turned into medical experiments now after the genocide Pol Pot decides to be referred to as femme I guess is he trans

a new pseudonym that's not femme as in like you'd say like you're a femme mask but how did the genocide end well we'll get to that okay but they keep going the killing fields

lovely romantic fields of death. But is the rate of the killing fields happening consistently for the three and a half year period? Yeah. It's just three and a half years are just that sort of. It's Michael Owen at the top of his game.

Right. Right. And then at some point... That's kind of a long time. You think about what's happening. Yeah. That's a long time for that intensity of shit to be happening.

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Michael won the Ball and Door. Yeah. And then his hamstrings gave out. So... And Pol Pot, was he nominated for Ball and? I don't think he was.

No. Because he was too, you know, he was a selfless. He's like a selfless player. It was like McAley's never going to win Balot. Who won the Ballondor in 79? Let's see you beat Pol Pot. Was there a Ballondor in 179? There was.

Stanley Matthew's won the first Ballandoor, I believe. Kevin Keegan. Interesting. So Keegan beats Paul Pot. Fair play. And what's Keegan's numbers? Keegan, a rare English winner of the Ballandor. Keegan stats.

Yeah. 204 goals and 592 appearances. It's not bad. Pop, 2 million, three and a half years. Yep. You know what I mean? blows out of the water. Yeah.

So how does the Khmer Rouge end? So for three years, they're absolutely going hell for leather, babies for trees. They're going babies for trees. They're going babies for trees. It's all pretty grim. They're forcing everyone to eat poo with their spoons, which is the only thing that they own. I don't think there's been a worst place to grow up in. No. You know, my wife and I are like, oh, do you want to bring the kids up in London?

I tell you where we don't want to bring them up is Cambodia in the 70s. Yeah. I mean, the 70s was bad in the years. UK. Yes. But it really was no idea. It really does.

It does. You know? Ted Heath. Yeah. All right. So at some point it should be said that Pol Pot goes

on a kind of Stalinist purge of his own party as well. So he really turns the turns the, it's not even turning the gun, it's turning the fucking pipe on himself and he starts

knocking off and around. Now there'd been constant border incursions from Cambodia into Vietnam and there'd been this big massacre that we mentioned last time. Well, so it was spinning over. Yeah, because they

were killing a lot of people who had Vietnamese tendencies, whatever that means. They hate the Vietnamese famously. They've been a long-running eminacy between the two countries. And they go one border incursion too far. They go and kill too many Vietnamese villagers. And in response, in December 19708, Vietnam invades Cambodia with support from some defectors who had fled the regime. And in a matter of weeks, maybe even days, they capture Plom Penh.

Because Plompin, it must be said, is a ghost town. Oh, that'd be great if you're a photojournalist, being able to go around. Because it's been deserted the entire time. It's deserted for four years, and they install a new government, the People's Republic of Campuchea, led by a man called Heng Samh. Did the animals return, like, in COVID? Probably. Probably. Probably a lot of monkey.

Yes, it was just completely deserted. It's like Chernobyl, it's just ghost town. Two million people overnight. Fuck off. Empty city for three years. So the Vietnamese take it to control of it. Install a new government. Pol Pot and his followers go back to the jungles near the time.

border in the west of the country so they collapse like they collapse really easily under vietnamese well yeah because there's no one in i mean there's just no one in the city really right and then i think the also the vietnamese have been fighting the vietnam war for years they're pretty bow-hardened and in 79 at what point does does the u.s pull out is that 75 yeah right okay there's a moment where the vietnamese are coming and doyke the guy who owns the guy you hate yeah doyke the guy that you hate the most, the football manager who's in charge of the search center, he gets a call saying, the Vietnamese are coming,

shut up, shop, bring another defender on, strike her off, let's just see this one out. So he quickly kills the remaining people that are there. And I think apart from like 12 people survived, S-21, I don't know, oh, I know why, one of them survives because he's the only one that's able to operate machinery

that makes the centre run. And this was the great problem of Cambodia in the 70s, in that they killed all doctors, anyone who had glasses. Yeah. But then when they need a medical system, they've killed everyone who's qualified. So if everyone's a rice farmer,

then if you eat too much rice and you feel sick, there's no one to help. So I guess the 12 were just important skilled workers that they can afford. Well, maybe not. Maybe some people just hid, I don't know. Or maybe someone just really liked eating poo with their spoon. I don't know. Anyway, so they all fuck off into the jungle.

Seven were children. Seven were children. Right, okay. So Pol Pot and the Khmer Roos. carry on being a thing but they fuck off into the jungle and start

which is what he loves really he loves it he's back to he's back to the heartland and this is where they start like a guerrilla campaign

against the Vietnamese for years I think yeah this is what's the weird part of it it doesn't have a satisfying end because normally like

an insane genocide you look at like World War II satisfying end Neurberg you know bunker blood

Daffy, satisfying end. The most satisfying end, Gaddafi, they've ever had. How extreme this genocide was, narratively, it's not particularly satisfying that he just goes back to guerrilla warfare as if none of it happened. It just feels like he took a step back. It's a fade out.

It's a cross fade into nothing. Like, the genocide only ends. But now they're back in the jungle fighting... The Vietnamese game. It was like it was... It's bookends. Yeah. Like it was all a dream.

Yeah, genuinely. Yeah. Did that even happen? Yeah. At that point, after four years of the disastrous genocide and the guerrilla fight, what are they even fighting for us? at that point.

I know. Is it to get back in and do it all over again? I guess so. Run that shit back. Well, no, it's the Vietnamese, isn't it? They hate the Vietnamese. Yeah.

So this is where Pol Pot starts, he gets rid of the black and starts wearing green jungle print safari suits. Right. Right. He also starts to ally with the fucking US. Right. Because the Vietnamese are running their country now.

So he's going, well, you hate Vietnam. Help us get rid of these Vietnamese commies. And the US are like, Sorry. You're calling them commies. That's a bit of the pot calling the kettle Chinese. Do you what I mean? Aren't you commies?

But this is the point is that he has no intellectual, like, integrity to his ideas. No. It's not an ideologue. No, because he doesn't really, he's using communism to try and control Cambodia. And then as soon as it becomes expedient to ditch communism, he's trying to say, let's allow with the US. And you know what? we should have some schools, maybe, and maybe the odd hospital's fine.

And yes, you can wear glasses if they're small. If they're really thick and big, and your eyes look thick, I'm going to kill you. But thick would be good. Thick is good, actually, so maybe it's just disorientating. So in October, 1979... But we don't know much about Pol Pot. He doesn't seem like a particularly sadistic man,

or is that just going off the photos? Well, yeah, he unleashes a kind of animalistic... That was there under the... Yeah. ...spirit. That's what Philip. short would argue, is that the Cambodian people have this thing in them. But he's like

when in Cambodia, do as the Cambodians. Yeah, fucking chuck babies at trees. That's what he would say. And maybe there's an element to that, but it's also, I mean, Paul Park was clearly I don't know, it's weird, there's no cult personality. It's a personality list

dictator. Yeah. So in October 79, it was declared there'd be no more executions and the UN recognizes the Khmer Rouge's delegation over the Vietnamese. So, So the UN, in the UN's Cambodia seat, it's still the Khmer Rouge for like a long time. Is it till the 90s?

That's crazy. That's like Hitler still having the seat of the UN for Germany until 1960. Yeah, it just doesn't have the neatness you're used to. It's just like, weirdly dragged out. Because America are pulled out and everyone's like, can we just forget that we did that? Forget this whole thing. You shouldn't really be there.

I don't know what's going on in there. Yeah. And it's like this sort of back corner of the world where everyone's just kind of ignoring it. And then the journalist, journalist behind the film The Killing Fields Can you look that up? He's a weird guy.

What, Popat? Journalist was a Cambodian photojournalist Dith Pran and American journalist Sidney Shanberg. The 1984 is based on the experience reporting on the Kauai Rood's regime. So basically, when everyone was leaving Vietnam, so like the last chopper outside of

they were gone, they stayed and like that's how it came out to the world. Is that like an American journalist stayed? I wouldn't documented the whole thing. Yeah. I think that's where it came from. What did they do with all the bodies? Well, you probably saw a lot of them.

You're the only one who's been to Cambodia. Yeah. Went to the killing field. And how are you shocked? This shocked at it. You've been there. He went to Angkor Wat. We did a patron episode about Ankur Wat.

And we're trying to ask him many questions. And he said, my dog died and it was hard. Well, I was really boiling. And my mum called me when I was going there. And she told me my dog had died. He said, he didn't say anything else about the temple. Yeah, it was a fucking sad, it was a sad blur. Yeah.

But my wife went to Cambodia. And she said, the striking thing is there's no old people. Oh, they're not. Well, they killed 20% of their population in three years. So there will be less old people. Yeah. And it's all from a certain... Working age is the main thing.

The working age men, 80%. So that's one generation pretty much taken out entirely. So if you're Cambodia and you got a grandpa, he probably did something a bit naughty. He was probably pretty naughty. But in enemies of the people, when he starts speaking to people who did it, it does sort show that they...

They don't strike you as evil. again they seem very genial and friendly and like they're like grandpas they just sort of got caught up in it all and they're still a level of guilt but that's like the Nazis thing the banality of uh evil oh there we go fucking hell

banality of anal so close the banality of anal is that your autobiography Charlie Miller autophography the banality anal is banal is banal is it is anal anal is not to me it's not to you maybe

to me it means something to me it's apathetic to me it's extraordinary No, the idea of it Yeah, but to you No, it's uncompassionate The banality of anal By Charlie Millland

You know what they say about anal Meh Benal In the way that boss Bemp and Baud and Bambesie Bad Bainle And apparently Banyé West and Baud and Baud and Baud and Bambsey

have been bombing But you beer this Banier best Stop Banyet best Bany Bess and Baud and Bambsey Bumme? After a party Yeah, Banyet Bumed

born and babes. Right. In 1979, the regime aimed to rebuild the military. Oh yeah. So Paul gets replaced by Q Sam Fan as Prime Minister.

In 81, Paul Pot and Noon Chia, who's the guy in that film, number two, brother number one and number two, they dissolve the CPK, which is the only Communist Party in history to voluntarily

end its own existence. So it's quite a lot of firsts. It is, yeah. They're quite unique in this sense. They do break the trends a little bit. It's still packing up and going, sorry about that. Should we just forget about that four years?

Yeah. Sorry, it was weird. I shouldn't have said that. It's like when I joke bombs and you're like... Sorry. Sorry. Sorry about that. Thought it would come out. I thought it would be funny.

No, I thought it sounded fun in my head. But it was... We just move on. You just forget about that. Forget. Sorry about that. Yeah. And so this is obviously because ideologically, they haven't really got a leg to stand on.

Well, a lot of people don't have legs to stand on. Yeah. And then they're then sort of solely fighting the Vietnamese. And it becomes something that you can unite the country a bit more because it's just... And this is so... The anti-Vietnamese stance means they now support capitalist nations, as I was saying. Paul Potts says, we chose communism because we wanted to restore our nation. We help the Vietnamese who are communist, but now the communists are fighting us, so we have to turn to the West and follow their way.

So he's just... It's a complete U-turn. Yeah. I mean, talk about U-turn. This is about as big as it gets. Yeah. So I guess, yeah, a lot of people say communism has never been tried properly. This is the example where you really believe that communism wasn't tried, right?

No, it was, it was tried. In a way, not really, because it's so clearly. not ideologically led it's just like no I get I yeah I mean some of the other ones I think you're skirting away from the responsibility but it definitely was tried and it didn't work but I think this is almost something else well it is no it's they thought they were trying yeah

yeah sort of but then he flips on a dime like that then was he even trying you know you got a man changes minds I guess so clearly doesn't work and also it's like trial and error isn't it yes you could say that's that there's no bad ideas in brainstorming no what about we uh march them all and chop all their heads off That wasn't a good idea No Did you come up with any ideas? No

Yeah I told a city to fuck off in two hours I was you know Yeah what was your idea Yeah you got any ideas Yeah you know It's always me having to come out All the fucking ideas So Pot allows captured soldiers

To return to their families And he says this Each person you kill has a family So each family will bear a grievance That way you increase the number of your enemies And you'll have fewer friends Well what's going on there Again it's this weird sort of

He's just flipped in a sixpence So his whole thing is enemies of the people, right? That's kind of the justification that the communist high command had for the genocide was purifying the country of enemies of the people. But he said there, the problem is when you kill an enemy, you make all their families into enemies. Yeah. So the coalition government of Democratic Campuchir is formed in 82,

and this is recognised by the UN as a more legitimate national government. So this is... It's similar to the Communist Party, it's saying it, similar views. But this is still the Khmer Rouge. Right. Right. But they control certain parts of the country. Vietnam control Pan Pan.

But like collective eating and communal possessions are abolished, but private property and family life are restored. The Camer Rouge continued to tolerate in the area controlled. So the north of the country. Yeah. They receive over a billion dollars in military aid from China, $250 million in the USA, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. What's going on there?

Well, that's it. They're getting it from everyone. Yeah, no one fucking knows how bad it is. and because Vietnam has technically violated their sovereignty and their communists and the comrades were gone we're not communists anymore

then the American and also I don't know how much they knew about it and also they're probably feeling guilty for fucking carpet bombing them over breakfast sorry about that so we should talk about his personal life

because he gets diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma in the 1980s desperate desperately sad another victim one more victim to the list his wife

his schizophrenic wife had been quite um mouthy hot and cold funny that blown up you're blown a bit hot and cold charlie can chat jubes see what happens to his um schizophrenic wife so yeah pole divorces her in 79 after the venomese invasion uh and remarries so punani gets cared for by her sister and she dies in terson three have never recovered and was seemingly unaware of pole pots right so she's just yeah she didn't know what's going on basket case um so he gets It's Hodgkin's lymphoma, which is, is that a shaky thing? Is it kind of Parkinson's adjacent?

I don't know. Is it a brain thing? Lumps, I reckon. What is it? Cancer. Cancer. In the lymph nodes in your throat, I think. Right.

But he married to a 22-year-old. It's Cambodia. It's classic. It's Cambodia. Cambodia is now making a bit more sense. The modern Cambodia is coming through. Bash, this is it. The long road to sex tourism.

He travels to Beijing for treatment. And while he's away, the Berlin Wall falls and the Cold War ends. And so with no Soviet threat, the US funding for Cambodian anti-communist efforts is withdrawn. Now, this is fascinating. Prince Sianuk, King Sianuk. Still alive. The Titan, who had sort of gone into exile and said, I'm very sorry for the whole going with the Khmer Rouge.

He comes back into power after the UN broker of peace deal between the Vietnamese and the Cambodians and he then demands trial for all the Khmer Rouge leaders Wow And so Sienouk holds the Guinness World Record for the most state roles

held by a royal So he was a king Twice he was a prince One time he was president And twice he was prime minister Yeah But he also had a rule that was Wait did he get

Do you have a picture of him With the Guinness World Record thing? Did he get one of those? He was head of state for life I think that was his title at one point Prime Minister and head of state for life So the Khmer Rouge agrees to a ceasefire fire.

Pol Pot gets banned from participating elections. Fair enough. And then... Was he later boycotted? Yeah, so this kind of... There's a coalition government

that formed and they start trying to fight the Khmer Rouge in the jungle. And then by the early sort of 90s, the Khmer Rouge only holds small pockets of territory. But they're still recognised

as the sort of valid government. It's crazy. But Searnuk back in power then? Yeah, so Sienuk's back in power and his owner... Sorry, so he is legitimate leader. Yeah, it's quite extraordinary life. So is he king again, maybe?

Is this Blair in Gaza then? I guess it's Blair and Gaza then. So Pot is still forcing people under his rule to live like peasants. And then he does something like he basically builds a fucking bond layer in the jungle where he surrounds this tree house complex with landmines and sharpened bamboo sticks.

Right. And then he just lives in a fucking house. Maybe with a cat. Maybe I'm imagining, right? I don't know. And so he gets kind of like bored. And then at some point in the mid-90s, he orders... He's getting no attention.

He kidnapsed. The Khmer Rouge kidnap, they capture a train. Right. They storm a train. And then he executes three backpackers, one British, one French, one Australian. Then some high-ranking Khmer Rouge guys defect. With 4,000 troops. Yeah.

Which is a lot of Ruge's remaining power. He tries to kind of reinstate the discipline and sort of revive the 70s vibe. Let's go out to the 70s 70s nostalgia Yeah He's still giving Like seminars To his followers

In his camp He's basically just like Hold out in the wilderness One common record As a teacher who's brilliant He was a sense of humor It was warmhearted towards He gave you confidence in yourself

There was clearly a charisma That we don't really know much Apart from But basically he's ill And he has heart problems as well I think And by 94 He's just hanging out with his daughter

Listening to music Reading he orders the execution of one of the other Khmer Rouge guys in Night 97 he gets Sonsen and 13 of his family members are run over by trucks

and the trucks then just reverse constantly back and forth over 13 people So this is 97 Pol Pot Yeah So he's still up to his tricks Blair's come to power Yeah And Pol Pot is in the forest

Getting people run over back Yeah so he's still It's like I don't have the machinery I had before To kill it. I've just got a truck truck. Yeah, and someone's family. Yeah.

But they do, in terms of like how creative they are and killing people, it's kind of extraordinary. Because that's another thing is that when he was a, I read this in the book, when he was a boy,

when he was a boy and he was doing the drama, you know, he was in a drama, drama school. Like, he would tour the country and what they would do is they just had a bus and they'd sleep under the bus

in the night. They just crawled to the bus, sleep under there and then get back on the bus. Okay. So he must have been lying under the bus. And then 50 years later,

it was like, this is quite good way to kill someone. After a 1997 coup, led by ex-Kimer Rouge official, Hunsen, Pol Pot was arrested in place under lifelong house arrest. Yeah, so he has a public show trial, which you can see on YouTube, get it up, Charlie, get the bit where he defends himself. He looks quite shaky and old, and that's the thing about war criminals when they're old. You sort of feel sorry for them because they're old, and you're like, oh, they're never the man they were. No.

But this is all, this only really started happening 15 years ago, something like that. They started, they went to trial. So Pol Pot is under house arrest. 97 to 98 and this is him describing his day when all is calm around 6 p.m. I go to bed under the mosquito net. I sleep alone. My wife and my daughter live elsewhere. Lovely. Only the masses of mosquitoes and insects that bite. Frankly, I'm bored, but I've grown used to the boredom. Feel sorry for him. Yeah. Bored. And then in, um, he still, he doesn't back down saying that he still said he was a good leader. And then in 1998, he dies of a heart attack, although a U.S.

journalist Nate Thayer believes that he committed suicide with Valium and Chloroquine. What's that? Because he found out he was going to America. Oh, because he was going to be extradited. Oh, wow, he's going to be extradited. That would be fun. Fuck.

See, what? He's going to be extradited to stand trial. His body was preserved in ice after a failed embalming. Oh, no, that's very sad. We're pro-embalming. We're a big pro-embalming. Charlie, can you Google failed embalming?

I want to see what that looks like. It's definitely something, that's a pro for communists. That's something they definitely got right. Now, see, again, it's another reason why they're not proper communists of these guys. They can't embalm their leader. Is that like if you over under varnish something? I guess so. Dripping with like...

I think you just fill it with fucking like oil that hardens or some shit. Failed embalming. Oh, dear. Man mistakenly mummified. So then he was frozen. He was preserved an ice. Oh. Pol pong.

I bet he was pol pong. Pol pongy. Failed embalming. So his body. is preserved in ice after a failed embalming and his wife burned it on a pile of rubbish and tires in traditional fashion. Tradish.

Yeah. I guess it's not, yeah. Tires. Robbish and tires. Scrapyard. Yeah, it's a bit of scrapyard, though, isn't it? Cambodian tradition. Is it? Rubbish and tires.

Yeah, I'm not sure I wanted to be burned in a pile of rubbish. But what would you want to be burnt on? Hey? What would you like to be burnt on? Poverish and pizza oven. Yeah, really expensive wood. Pizza oven is normally the thing. I mean, it's a hot a pizza oven.

Imagine you're slid in. You want something which has a nice smell of the woods, like really like nice wood chips. And then, yeah, someone could be doing steak over the coals. Kind of thing. Next to me. I think I would like to be, as I'm being burned, I'd like a grill on top.

And I'd like a boss man making sheesh kebabs on top of that. No, no, no, no. You're spinning on Adonner? No, no, no, no. Just the circle of life. Right. I'm on the coals. And then there's a grill.

Yeah. And then there's a boss man doing sheish carbs. Have you been marinated? Hey? Have you been marinated? Did you get the brush? I've been rubbed, been spice rubbed,

just giving a flavour to the coals. It's a nice sort of circle of life thing, isn't it? I would like to die of old age. I don't know if you're getting that. Of age then. I want to die because of my age. Right. Not because of like getting beaten up.

You're either going to die in two years or live to 135. Yeah. Yeah. Look, if you make it past 30, you're going to live, you're the oldest man. If you live to 135,

then people be like, oh, what's he doing to get there? And then everyone will try and cop you and they'll all die at fucking 20. Well, the reason why he's getting it to 135 is because his brain ages at half the speed. Yes.

Hello, I'm Doreen Linsky. And I'm Ian Dunn. We're the hosts of origin story, the podcast about the history that shapes our political discourse today. Our eighth season is all about the story of socialism, from its earliest experiments to the present day. From Marx to Mao, Lenin to the Labour Party, Gramsci to Gorbachev, we'll be exploring the people, the events and the ideas behind socialism and communism. So please join us as we journey through an idea that has changed the world. You can listen to us or watch us on video.

on Spotify, your regular podcast app, or now on YouTube. So even today, people from Anlong Veng visit his grave to make offerings, and some dig for bone fragments of him because they believe that he can cure malaria. Well, I guess it's one cure as Pol Pong's, but... Pol Pong-y. Yeah. Maybe, I reckon he looked like he smelled quite nice, but... Yeah, when he was alive, certainly.

So in 2003, the extraordinary chambers in the... courts of Cambodia was created and its goal is to try the leaders responsible. The ECCCC. Yeah, the English cricket county cricket clubs. Yeah. I don't know why they would do it. But they're trustworthy. Well, they, I guess their trial was

guys, you play it with a ball. Not a baby, yeah. It's not a baby. Right. It's the snap of leather on willow. Not the snap of baby on oak. Um, so the major trials was yeah, Duke, sorry, doyke, who was the guy who Greg Wallace

or who Charlie would have Greg Wallace's defence. Yeah. He was found guilty of crimes against humanities and war crimes. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. And he died five years ago. Died during COVID. Interesting. Neon Chia, who is the guy in the enemies of the people film.

So he's brother number two. He gets tried of guilty of genocide. When was the film then? When was that film we watched? Oh, 2003. Oh, right. Okay. So this is case zero zero two, the senior leadership case.

So brother number two, Q Sam Fan, Yang Sari, who was Pol Pot's, like, best mate. And they... Still alive. Who is? Yang Sari? Kisham Fan. No, he's dead. He's still alive.

Oh, right. So he's still a sentence. He's in prison now. Yeah, in his 90s. Where's he in prison? Can we find out where he's in prison? Get him on the pod. Get him on the pod.

Candle provincial prison. Light a candle for Q Sanfan. Yang Sari was tried, never commit, never... And then Pol. Pot, of course, never faces trial because he flees to the jungle and dies of a heart attack

just as he was about to be handed over to the international authorities. So, but the ECCCCC was criticised for being slow and expensive. Costs over 300 million?

Fucking hell, what are they? And taking nearly two decades. Yeah. I mean, it's complicated, I guess. Yeah. I guess you want to make sure they are guilty, right? Yeah.

You've got to keep double checking. And also there weren't, I guess there weren't many survivors really, because everyone 12, fucking 12 survivors. 12's insane. Yeah.

Not the whole thing, not the whole thing. Oh, right. It wasn't Cambodia goes from 8 million to a football team. Football team with a sob. That was just as a torture. That was just the torture prison. Right.

Yeah, yeah. So the other thing we should have said in the last episode is that they also, because they've forced atheism, they burn a lot of like cham Muslims. I don't know who they are. There's some Muslims. But that's like, that's like bottom of the list. It's a drop of the ocean, really.

I mean, they're killing fucking everyone. And yeah, that's basically. So, I mean, like you said, it's quite an unsatisfying end. It's just kind of a slow fade out. Pot just goes into the jungle, carries on the fighting. At least some people stood trial, and it feels like modern Cambodia has into some, well, it feels like Southeast Asia manages to recover from these things better than I imagine Britain would in some ways.

Like Vietnam, they're such like polite people over there. They're quite forgiving people. They have no ill will to the Americans. Yeah. Even when you hear the Vietnamese speaking like the Ken Burns dog Yeah

As soon as the Americans left They'd forgiven them Yeah It was literally If you're not here We don't care Forgive and forget So

And then Cambodia Whereas Iran I'm still annoyed About 1956 It's like chill out boys What is Charlie then Yeah Should we wrap up

The Cambodian Genocide With Charlie What would you What's your main takeaway From this series You've been to Cambodia That you

I mean you seem To have not I feel it's made you You understand The subject Less being to Cambodia Yeah Because you just seem to think that Paul Potts killed your dog or something.

Sorry, I tell you, before we do this chart, it's a highly thing, we haven't checked in with what Paul Potts is doing. Yes. So we need to know what Paul Potts has been doing this whole time. What happened when Paul Potts? What was Paul Potts doing? He was working in retail, including jobs at Tesco's and waitros. And he was serving as a Liberal Democrat councillor and Bristol City Council.

Is that the same Paul Potts? Yeah, it tracks when he was 28 years old. So Paul Potts, Paul Potts was. Now, when did Paul Potts... Apparently, Paul Potts got really badly bullied throughout his whole life. Right. His dad was a bus driver

and his mother was a supermarket cashier. So when did Paul Potts when Britain's Got Talent? 2007. First ever winner of the show. And does that track with any of the Cambodian war criminal's trials? It does, but not Paul Pot.

Not Paul Pot, of course. Okay, so that's nice, it's nice to know that... They were doing... Neither them were at their peak at the same time. No, they missed each other. Yeah. Okay.

sorry so yes charlie what have you what have you learned from the cambodian to sum up the cambodian genocide he was nice initially i mean it gave everyone spoons but then i've done if that i'd stop the nice bit before the spoon bit to be honest i say the nice bit was when he was like at school in paris no no no no he gave everyone a spoon never forget that never well you come a long way with him remember how long ago it feels when he was getting milt by the the courthands yeah just a young boy getting He felt like good. Yeah. And he seemed like, he seemed nice.

And then he, I think he just got a bit distracted. Distracted. Uh, it got out of hand. It did definitely go out of hand. That's fair. The banality of anal, um, showed itself. It did. How have you found this as a topic?

Have you enjoyed this one? Confusing. You felt tricked, I think, haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. What the Cambodian genocide? Well, the killing fields. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't like it.

No. I think it's some of it's really horrible, actually. Yeah. Actually. How does that stack up against the rape of Nan King? This feels worse. Dying. Because I thought it would be fine.

How do you think this stacks up to the Rape of Nan King? Well, I guess the Rape of Nan King's branding is quite stark, isn't it? You know, the Rape of Nan King. Yeah. And for that, we did a poetry episode on the Rape of Nan King, but... That's still probably the worst thing. I think that's the worst thing. But that's just not happening over such a big distance.

Although, do you know what? No, this is... The fact that this is, it's the back-to-basics hand-hand. a hand genocide. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but there's samurai.

The poo eating. They didn't make them poo in Japan. They'd line them up and they're, I know. They're lying them up and they're, I know, get in one samurai sword

and just going. Yeah. Here they've got tubs of poo and they're making them eat them. I think that's worse. Like an old box of cart door. With a spoon the government have given them.

Which is nice. That is nice. But they didn't make them eat poo with it. Yes, I know, but it's a government issue spoon. There's pros and cons to the pros and cons. On the pro side,

we got given a free spoon. On the con side, away from us and they made us eat people with a spoon you know yeah it's every cloud yeah yeah yeah anyway so that's why this is worse i think this is worse but way more people hey way more people way more people but i just mean for the actual brutality of brutality the brutality the focus of raping king probably makes it worse although what is quite funny about the rapinang king is that when uh they were cut they were cutting off everyone's heads the japanese soldier who were doing that got listed as a casualty because his arm was sore.

Pretty good. So that's pretty good. Well, listen, I think that's, we've completely done the Pol Pot story. Yeah, we have. And when we've done it dry, I mean, we've got nothing left. No.

You don't really get a good last episode in the right way. It's frustrating because it's kind of a fade out and also because... He should have been Gaddafi over the front of a car. Oh, I would have loved that. Yeah.

He should have been fucking, like, slingshotted against a tree. Like that shot out of a cannon into a tree. If there's any justice. I mean, He died being bored for 10 years, which I guess might be worse

than being sodomized quickly. Someone should have fucking, someone should have fucked him. Right. Fucked him. Someone should have fucked Paul. Someone should have Paul Botted him. Yeah.

Right. I think when we're ranking dictators, I personally find Paul Pot quite hard to love because there's not much personality there. And, but I think the Khmer Rouge four years in charge is obviously all kind of, ickiness aside,

kind of hilarious and how spectacularly bad it is. Could have been the most spectacular there is. Could be the biggest case of failed ambition ever. Yeah. We're going to...

Because the Great Leat Forward is one thing. The super Great Leap Forward. That really takes it to the next level. It's phenomenally bad. Yeah. And the intentions have never been better. No. And the outcomes have never been worse.

So that brings us to the end of the Cambodian genocide. I'm absolutely full of meat. Yes. If you'd like a bit of pudding, a bit of a sweet, treat to tie you over. The Justeve. The patron

this week is the history of house arrest from Roman senators to Oscar Pistorius. Pol Pot obviously is under house arrest for the last part of his life. Three pounds a month, you can become a Pol Potrian and join some other people who managed to survive

being thrown against trees as babies. Their lives are difficult, but they can still afford to subscribe to our bonus content. We'll see you next week for a brand new topic, which will be less grim. I think I can't remember what we're doing. But thank you for stopping by

and we'll see you next week for more history. Paul bye. Goodbye.