Fin vs History - Jungle Blair & The Boy Who Di Canio-d Cambodia | Pol Pot (Part 1/4)

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

How did a smiley boy who was good at volleying footballs become the monster behind the Cambodian Genocide?   The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.  For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon ⁠patreon.com/fintaylor Chapters; 00:00 Sex Tour Duty 04:57 Ladyman 08:11 The French Get Involved 12:49 God King Monivong 16:50 Trans Swindon 21:09 Jungle Blair 27:41 The First Indochinese War 34:50 Cambodia Gains Independence 40:10 Milked in the Palace 44:27 Rice Farmer with a Scissor Kick 48:04 Pol’s Nailing It Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at pceexpress.ca. Welcome back to Finn versus History. I'm joined by Horatio Gould. Pot cornered a kettle pole. It's the big one. Lads, chuck your colander's down the stairs. We're going to India China. It's Pol Pot Fortnite.

Fuck me. Here we go. Out of a gate. Colander down the stairs. You haven't seen that video? Charlie get the video up just to, otherwise I'm backed into a corner here. 20 seconds on the clock and you've gone, dang,

dunk, ding, ding, that's how to name your Asian baby. Great stuff. One of my favorite videos. Wow. Not even,

normally we bury it a little bit so that people clicking on, you know, they've had a bit of time to acclimatize, but straight out the gate. Lads, get your colanders out, chucking down the stairs, we're an into China. It's a bit of red meat this fortnight.

The pigs are eating steak for a fortnight. Yeah. We're in Pol Pot. It's one of the ones I've been most excited about because I don't really know a lot about him. It's crazy. Apart from the fact that he has the same name as the X Factor winner. Yes, it's not Pol Potts.

Paul Potts. We should be very clear. This is not the history of Paul Potts. But we will touch on Paul Pot. He does come into the story. Because they're both alive at the same time. Yes. There's a brief crossover.

So we might cut between both their lives. Yes, we should be checking in on what. Paul Potts is doing at the same time as Paul Potts. What's Paul Potts doing now? Is he still alive? Has he been tried by the ICC? No, he's 55 years old. He's born in October 1970.

So this is around the time the Khmer Rouge. The Khmer Rouge are in the jungle at this point, fighting. We will be checking in on what Pol Pot is doing. And you know what? Because Pol Pot's not his actual name. Yeah. And he takes the name Pol Pot, I believe, 1970. As Paul Potts is born.

Right. That is weird, isn't it? Yeah, something's going on. And we will get to the bottom of it. We will get to the bottom of it. But today we're not really touching much on Paul Pot. Well, what's fascinating about Pol Pot is that he's a dictator. Yeah.

But he's not even really the main character in his story. No. It's quite an enigmatic figure. We don't know a lot about him. It's only two years after he's been in power that he tells the country that he's in power. Yeah. So no one actually knows what he's doing. And if we go Gaddafi, you go Saddam, you go to D.R.

There's a huge amount of ego and sent, but he wasn't really like that. No. It wasn't like in the shadows. There's not like, you know, even like Mao, you have huge pictures of Mao. Yeah. There wasn't a cult of personality. No, it's the opposite. It was a cult of killing nearly everyone in your country.

I don't know what that is. Cults of zero personality. So we need to start with really Indochina. Yeah. Which is one of, I love Indochina. I love it's called French Indochina. Yeah. It's Cambodia, Vietnam, but it's got three different countries that are neither

Vietnam or Cambodia. It's India, there's India, there's China, there's India, China, whatever that is. Germany, Spain, but it's Sweden. Yeah, exactly. Love it. And we are Indochina, obviously now is a haven for sex tourists. And it's Indochina, you know, what Switzerland is to financial crime, Indochina is to non-consensual sex.

If we didn't, if it didn't exist, we'd have to invent it. But would we say, seeing how Indochina was in the 70s, the fact that it's a haven't sex tourist has been seen as a great success story almost, considering? Yeah, I mean, it's better than it was. but like it's basically like a tourist place for westerners yeah i mean it's it's the world's red light district yeah and it needs to exist because you know where is someone like your dad meant to go when his business fails you know

deborah i want to know if i like it yeah it's tits and a dick i want to know if i'm into it my dad is in indonesia i don't want to die not knowing yeah so yeah my family we were part of the lineage of pop pop well what was interesting was i was i met another comedian and he his dad's not a sex tourist but is a moved out to southeast Asia for sex on a tourist visa yeah uh they don't want to throw can you get a sex tourist visa is that where you can yeah um it was funny speaking to another comedian about his dad who is in cambodia right and we were talking about our dads and how long they've been out there as if they'd served in the war so it was like Cambodia 10 years it's like yeah Indonesia 12th

It's a sort of a sex tour of duty. Yeah, exactly. But I feel that's a new thing for sons to be talking about. Yes, yeah. Like, that's a new phenomenon. So our dads were talking about their dads who had actually served. And then we're talking about our dads serving as sex tourists in South East Day. So there's a funny moment where it's like, this is a very new conversation for us to both be talking with a shorthand.

Oh, I do a lot of charity work for, uh, Saville, Charterians, Veterans of Sex Tourism. Yeah, so French into China. It's the long road to barn me. Or Germany, Korea, Australia. Germany, Korea, Australia, whatever you want to call it. It's the French Empire. Yeah. And before that, Cambodia is sort of like a backwater of a backwater.

Yes. And this is important because, what's this, Charlie? This is a 10-year-old boy who weighs 188 kilograms. Is he Cambodian? Yeah, he's Indonesian. Right. That's nowhere near this, is it? Well, he's in the area.

He's in the area. Yeah, I guess it's around the corner. He's raised 188 kilograms and he's 10? Yeah. My word. He is the world's fattest child, apparently. And he's been put on a crash diet because his parents are afraid for his health. Crash diet.

188 kilos he goes on a crash diet. But to be fair, that's one of the most impressive specimens you've brought up to be fair. Facially, I did look like him when I was... There's a little bit of the stag pig in him. Wow, do you feel that. It's tenderizing the meat. Look at that. Yeah, it looks like one of those water beds.

When he was nine years old, he couldn't walk to school because he would quickly run out of breath. Yeah. No, that's... She's acting like this has happened to that... Like, surely you had something to do with this. I don't know what happened. He couldn't get to school. Like, why's she not fat?

Like, what is he... Where's he sneaking food? Look at that. Look how they wash him. Oh, my God. Like, it's like a cow. Fuck me. Wait, is that like a seven-man job?

Look at this. It's like Albanians. It's happy in the car. You can't go to a fork or get a bunch of Albanians to scrub him down. my god anyway right so that's a bit of context we've got a lot of stuff to get through we do have a lot of stuff to get through it's kind of mesmerizing it is please get off the screen so Cambodia is surrounded by Vietnam and Lao this is prime gap here stuff yes but Cambodia in the early modern period was

constantly being dicked on by both Vietnam and what's then called Siam what's now called Thailand. That's where the first transgender person came from, I believe. Cambodia is sort of like the Poland of Southeast Asia, right? Always getting invaded. Yeah, it's just, it's being Eiffel-towered by Vietnam and Thailand. Yes.

Between the 1500s and the 1800s, Cambodia is various times ruled by Vietnam, by Siam. Apart from a small period when Angkor Wat, which is the most famous, one of the most famous sites. Well, that's before this. That's, yeah, yeah.

So there was a small period where they had, where they owned Vietnam and Thailand. The height, the height of the Khmer Empire is sort of the, what, 13th century, something like that. And they own a lot, they ran a lot of Southeast Asia. And that's why Angkor Wat, that site is such a big symbol for them. Not only because it's such an extraordinary site, but because it's a symbol of when they used to run ship. But they've been kind of in the sort of didaldrums since then. Yeah. And Vietnam and Thailand, science.

are running it at one point for 200 years Vietnam blocks off Cambodia's access to the sea fair enough so

so it sends Cambodia to bed with no supper basically so there's no access to trade so it doesn't really develop at all right

then the French get involved the French call this Indochina and the French just take over all of this and call it apart from Thailand because Thailand

was never colonised no one of the only countries not to be colonised ever well they're doing some interesting stuff down there

you know they develop differently. This is what happens. It's like Japan. You have Neanderthals. You have Neanderthals. That's ties.

That's where transgender patient zero is Thailand. You've seen the 10 gun salute in Thailand. Why is it? Just 10 bloke's getting there. No, it's 10, 10, 10 lady boys firing ping pongs. Lady boys firing pinpongs at their ass. I believe you have to be a cisgender female to get ping pong shows. Charlie, get us a ping pong.

Trans ping pong shows must involve the ass. I don't think The lady boys fire ping pongs out of their Surely you have On one side you have women On the other side you have women On the other side you have lady boys And the women fire the ping pongs out

And the lady boys thwack it Right With their not So it's like bat in practice Yeah Right Is a lady boy A tie throw down

You got You're a beautiful woman with a cock Yes That's what lady boy is right So it's never It's never a fanny down there I don't think so Because that would be a lady lady lady

That'd be a lady Yeah fine I think you need to call the lady lady Okay You know You're a lady lady lady boy

Okay fine And you don't get Lady man Neither lady man It's boy It's boy Yeah It's interesting that

Isn't it Yeah Can a lady boy It's more gentle I guess A lady boy Yeah Yeah

I'm a lady man You don't want A lady man If you were gonna experiment I don't know If you're dipping Your toe Into that sort of stuff

Where are you put in your toe Well It gets fired straight out of though. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I guess a lady boy

is for people like your dad who experimented. It's a stepping stone to opening their sexuality. Yeah, exactly. You know? And I think lady man

it's just... Hey, I'm a lady man. Come on then, mate. Come on then, mate. You want to have a look at this? You want to go... Have a bang on this. You want to see something

fucking mental. What? See these tits? We'll check this out. You're saying it's Ronnie Biggs is a lady man. All right. Look at this.

What, I had a wopper down there. Have the butchers at this So that's what's going on in Thailand They're developing their own story But that's not Cambodia That's not what we're talking about today No Now in 1863

Cambodia becomes a French protectorate And I think the word protectorate's quite important Because the French are meant to be protecting them But this becomes crucial later So they're like Wales That's a protectorate right Oh sorry the country I thought meant the animal

The country of Wales Is it? Oh no it's principality It's not a protection This is a country, I think. It's not a country, technically. Wales? I don't think so.

It's definitely a country. Is Wales a country? It's 100% a country. We're going to have some angry, angry Welsh in the comments. Okay. Yes, it's a country. Do you think it was a county? I think it was a county.

Fuck me. No, there was England and Wales. It doesn't have the same rights as Scotland and Northern Ireland. I'm a shot by that as you reacting to me going dong, dong, dong, saying Wales isn't a country. I'm genuinely believing it as well. No, it's not the Wales isn't a country. What is it?

Wales that they don't have... It's a country. No, yeah, there's something different about them. Well, yeah. Yeah. Doesn't mean they're not a country. Get Sandra's videos. Yeah, I mean, they're obviously built differently.

But yeah, they're built differently. It doesn't mean they're not a country. No, there's not a country though. Christ, fine. Can't take that away for them. No. Now, Cambodian royalty, I suppose the country, we've read this book on Pol Pot, which, as you were saying to me, is written, it wouldn't be written like that nowadays.

It was an old school one. It was hard to find. Yeah. And I feel the copies I've got a like. used. It's not like something that was easy to get on Amazon.

No. And... But I found it quite funny because at all times the author's going, you've got to bear in mind the Cambodian people

are really thick. Yeah, stuff that you were... He really went for like big swings there. Yeah. Every history now is so many caveats. Yeah. Nothing is anyone's fault.

Everything is like built within this huge system. The Americans were involved. They did it. Yeah. And he's like, no, they're really thick and stupid and they believe

some mad stuff. There's some really stupid shit. was going to happen because I mean they're a basket case yeah that's basically what he says but the point is that the Cambodians is a very very very like feudal yeah in terms of the

progression of societies it's way way way way way way back I mean it's in the middle of the jungle away from the sea so it's really hard to get anything in it so it's really like pretty medieval but the French come in and they and my point is that the Cambodian royalty they think the

king is a god they have god kings and they're buddhist ish which goes all the way back to anchor what yeah buddish they're budish buddish and you have these two lines it's noradom and sisawath not really that important but basically at some point uh there's a guy called king moni moni moni mong what's he called king mong not king mong mongivong sisawat monivong monivong monivong monivong um he rules 19 27 to 1941. Okay. So this is

under the French protector. So the French come in, they go, is India, is China, it's Indochina.

Yeah. And they basically make all that area one thing. Yeah. And like most French colonies, there's French

quarters to the cities where it looks like a little Paris and the Cambodian to base of servants. They build up Phnom Penh,

which is the kind of the main city, the capital. They do a lot of colonial architecture. Yeah. They make a big French quarter.

But they have a policy where they're like, we're going to deliberately hinder their development because we're only going to add a few French schools. Why purposely? Because they're like, there's some name they give it. They want to make it like an assimilated colony. Right. Which means that they're like,

we're only going to build three schools. We're not like building loads of schools. Yeah. We're building three schools. They'll be French. Yeah. And you've got to be clever to get in. And was that the same in Vietnam?

Was that across the whole of French Indochina? No, because Vietnam was way more advanced. Loads of ports, yeah. So for context, in like 1936, the first Cambodian language newspaper begins. Right. By that point, Vietnam had 3,000 Vietnamese language newspapers. Right, right, right. So literacy and stuff, it's the jungle, basically.

Yeah. So, yeah, 18902, the French parliament declares Indochina an assimilated colony. Jungle is massive. Jungle is massive. And so this is basically a policy to consolidate the dominance of French culture in Cambodia. So French is the official language, only open a few schools. They hire French teachers to teach in French, and they offer French history courses instead of Cambodian ones.

So then Monivong. So there's people in the middle of the jungle learning about, like, the Eiffel Tower. Yeah, and they don't know what's going on. Because they're basically just rice. Their life is rice. Right. Yeah. Their uncle Roger.

haya you know that's that's Cambodia right it's a lot of people sitting like this if we were a Cambodian podcast we've been doing it like this okay we're waiting for a go a goat that will never come a goat that never waiting for go to Cambodian play it's just this my dad's been to Cambole loads not as a sex stories he makes films out there but he said it's made he makes films out there not have you gone out there with him. No, you're right. Have you seen any of the footage?

He took kids out there. Oh, did he? Yeah. It does sound bad. If this is a Camberian podcast, he's sitting like this. Right. Under a tree. Yeah.

Waiting for a goat to come. But it never comes. It never comes. It's just a guy who comes and fucking throws you against the tree. Yeah. That's basically what it is. Yeah. So anyway, there's a guy called Sissawat Monivong, who's the king.

And at this point in Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh's Indoch Chinese Communist Party is So Ho Chi Minh He becomes obviously a big cheese In Vietnam What I didn't realize Before we started this was how

Intertwined the Vietnam War is With Pol Pot and the Kameh It's kind of the same thing It's part of the same It's one of the side effects Of the shocks and trauma Of the Vietnam War So obviously we'll

So it adds even more to the big whoopsies It's a bit yeah Yeah it is a real big whoopsie And Nixon's getting involved later on in the story. It's a giant, this whole region is a giant banana peel, to be honest. Yeah, it really is. And to be fair... And it looks like one in a way.

It does, yeah. And to be fair, could you say that Southeast Asia sort of basically post-war... It's essentially 50 years of war from like World War II onwards. It just never stops until like the 90s. Until my dad starts coming there. Yeah. And saying, what's going on down in here? What?

And your dad's going like, yeah, yeah, yeah, the fucking... What have you got on your pants? Yeah. Can I look at that? Yeah, your dad's like, oh yeah, the genocide anyway. What's going on down there? Yeah. Titsana dick.

Yeah, tell me something about the killing fields. What's your name, sir? Or lady. Is it lady boy or lady man? What is the population of Thailand that is trans? Do they even, would we even, do they even call themselves trans? I didn't know, like, not in a gay way. What are you talking about?

I'm not gay. I've got tits and a dick. I'm a lady boy. I think they beat up trans people, the lady boys. We're not fucking queer. I'm a lady boy. Like what is, because obviously Thailand is...

So 311,000 transgender women in Thailand. Yeah. Which is more than the population of Swindon. Wow. What? That's it. Imagine that.

Transwindon. Which country is the highest percentage of trans people? I guess trans people are the magic roundabout, aren't there? Don't know which one? I'm going. Apparently,

Germany and Sweden. Really? Germany's surprising Germany Well I get at Berlin I suppose It's something like It's something about Protestantism They snap back

Your own lived experience Your own relationship to God Your own relationship to genitalia Yeah Whatever I guess so Yeah I suppose you're right Are you saying the Reformation is the first step On the way to transgender liberation

I'm not even saying that as a joke I genuinely believe that Right okay I think there will be far more transgender's people Transgenders There'll be far more transgenders In Protestant countries than Catholic countries

Really Because Catholic is more rigid and traditional. I've got a fanny. Do you? No, no, no. You showed us your dick yesterday. So I was making a point and you just said, I've got a fanny. No, if you have a fanny, you're like, I've got a fanny.

If you're in a Protestant country. Why? Because you know you have a fanny. He's adding to your point. I'm trying to support your point. You are? I don't think that helps my point at all. I've got a fanny.

If you're a protest country, you just say, I've got a fanny. But if you're not, obviously, you wouldn't say I've got it. It didn't help, but he is trying to. I've got a fanny. But it's Protestantism is about curating your own relationship with God. Yes, no. I see your point, but I would say that I know in India and in India, China, like they don't even see, I don't think, they see gender neutrality as like a different concept.

I don't see fanny. It is as I don't see fanny. And we need to talk about the... I mean, they don't actually because there's a lot of dick down there. When we do the history of transgender people, Iran has a fascinating because they have the most, the best surgeries are in Iran. Iran But we talked about this

Remember We did actually Yeah we were like Oh that's so woke For Iran But we realized The reason was It's because

Because you get killed For being gay They're like Instead we'll just turn you into a woman Yeah Yeah With hairier countries You can kind of hide

If you're a hairy country You can hide behind your pubs more Like if you're like Don't hide behind your pubs sir Come out from behind there If you're like Yeah Well like that Ned Flanders meme

Where you're sort of Going back into the bush Well that's a dick Going back into the pubs I have a Simpson Go back into the pubs like that. I'm trans now.

Yeah. But Southeast Asian are hairless people. Right. So anyway, we don't know. But my point is, I think there's a,

because you know there are tribes that have like a thousand genders. And so that's... Oh there? Yeah. And so... The loony left. No, not the loony left.

Well, yeah, the loony left. But I mean, like, there's tribes in other parts of the world where gender neutrality and non-binary stuff isn't a category. It's just kind of accepted. Because they're, you know,

they're communing with spirits. and stuff. Sort of. I think people throw that around a lot, but I'd love to see. Well, it's my point. I think basically...

Because what always makes me laugh is they'll be like, yeah, we have such like a rigid view of gender and then they'll pick up like five, a tribe of five people where that didn't apply. See? Yeah. It's like, well, then they're also cannibals.

And you go, right, well, should we be doing that? Should you do that? Should we? Are we throwing that baby out with a bath water? Anyway, so Monivong is a king. And the French want to use him as sort of a puppet. basically. That's the, that's the French vibe. Now, during World War II,

France forced to Germany in weeks because they are, you know, their fucking defences is a kitchen. Spring under their arms. Yeah, they've got springs under their arms. And so what does this mean for their empire? It means that they are run by Vichy France. Nauty France.

The high, you know, the peak of France, in my opinion. This is a government that collaborates with Nazi policies. And so what does this mean for their... And ideologies. And ideologies. And ideologies. Yeah. Nauty France. So Monivong is kind of helpless then to stop the Japanese who are in their naughtiest of the naughty days.

No one's ever really been naughty. Yeah. Apart from maybe the Khmer Rouge. Yeah. Which is which Khmer Rouge are sort of jungle Nazis. That's right. It's exciting. Yeah.

Sort of. They are. I mean, they're barely communist. They don't know what they're fucking are. They don't know what they are. That's what's so funny about it. Yeah. They say they're communist.

They don't fucking know what communism is. It's crazy. I guess so. We'll get to it. But they're not. Nazis, it's like, Nazis are like, is one race dominating another in some ways. But Khmer Rouge, they're like, it's just anyone, anyone's going to be killed pretty much. Yeah, there's no rival reason for it.

It's shuffle. It's shuffle genocide. You, you next, you, yeah, get rid of them. Anyway, the Japanese come in, who are allied to Germany, of course. They occupy Cambodia from 1941 to 45, right? And this kind of shatters the illusion that the French are protecting them because they can't protect them from the Japanese. French are very weak at this point French are very weak

When have they not been? Monivong dies shortly after the Japanese occupation And so France go We need to find a king That's gonna we can control A little puppet king And they appoint a 19 year old

Norodom Sienuk He's a little twink And he's Monivong's grandson I believe And so they think he's 19 We can You know He's pliable

We don't know But he basically I would say arguably is the main character in the Pol Pot story. His story is amazing. He's an incredible character, Seenook. In a story where everyone seems to be pretty thick, he's one of the only people who

seems to be, have any severance of intelligence. I'd say he's probably the most articulate and politically astute, like third world leader of this period. Yeah. I can't I think that's fair. Because he's like a poet as well. Maybe like Kwame and Krumer

or Joma Caniato in Africa, but yeah, he's incredible. The The triangulation he ends up playing between the US, China, Russia and Vietnam is like, would make Blair weep. It's true. It's crazy good. I mean, there's a bit of Cynanuk revisionism, though. Is there? I mean, he did sort of fuck it.

Oh, no, no, he totally fucks it. But like Blair. Fucks it. Right, okay. But I'm just saying as a kind of, you know, the reason I love Blair is more as a kind of Greek tragic figure. Sure, sure. I'm obsessed with the story of the man and his muscles. And his wife.

Yeah. so it's jungle Blair he's got everything it's jungle Blair yeah he's jungle Blair yeah so there's hubris involved just the whole thing yeah I mean he's a he's a so anyway he's he's a phenomenal politician now he his quote right his first quote he says is Cambodians are all naughty boys and that includes me so he's he breaks down in tears when he gets first selected to rule. He doesn't want it. He doesn't want it because he's 19.

He's terrified. But so he'd had a lonely childhood. His mother gives him to a carer for the first six years of his life. Fair play. His dad's a womanizer. He gets sent to France and gets sort of fully French-fied. And all the intellectual class. And this includes in Vietnam as well, Hocci Min

and later Pol Pot. Everyone gets educated in France. So that's what It's tight intellectual. Even the intellectual class in Southeast Asia wouldn't probably be counted as like a sort of, you know, GTSE level. You know, do you what I mean? What we were saying, and this is going to come throughout this story,

is a bachelor's degree has never gone further than in Southeast Asia. Yeah. Because it's like 15 people got picked to go to France to get a degree. Yeah. And they go back and end up leading a genocide that kills 2 million people. 20% of the population. Yeah. But I wouldn't even say that they finished their degree.

No. All they understood it. Yeah. I mean, the levels of like... They did an Erasmus course and... Yeah, I get the gist, yeah. Let's go home and do it. So, Cianuk, kind of he starts to...

He starts to become more confident into the role. In the 40s and 50s, he had six wives, father's 14 children, while he's in office. Again, Jungle Blair. When he comes to the Throne of 41, it says his interests are football, jazz, riding, movies, and girls. He's a man after my own art. That's pretty good. riding yeah riding separate to riding girls yeah he's a keen sax player so it's kind of Clinton almost right yeah and a film watcher and film bro he is a film bro he makes during

his life he produces directs and writes 50 films are these actually film yeah yeah but they're all they're all romantic dramas and he had no um educational background uh so he's got that sort private school entitlement right yeah yeah i can we get any footage of his some of his films Of the series of scenic films. One's called Twilight. And he would also start in the lead role. And he'd do the music. Yeah.

But I mean, singing as the country fell apart of me is thinking... Write the theme tune, do the theme tune. But also shouldn't you be leading the country? Oh, here we go. I feel like you had a lot more to do. Whole thing's on YouTube. Right.

Yeah, look at that. Sepia. It's in Sepia. Yeah, it's in the... Well, you put the Instagram filter Sepia on. Yeah. They put Paris filter on this. Yeah.

This is one of Seenux films. this is Twilight When's he making this? Well that's my So this is a bit later On the timeline But he is genuinely distracted by This is I think

There's 969 is when shit's really kicking off Yeah there's a civil war going on He probably should not be doing this lad He's making a film He's making a film that he's starring him And doing the music You need to learn to outsource Yes he does

It's a really important job As delegation Yeah But He's doing his own clips Yeah he's doing his own clips It's like lad It's like lad

Learn to delegate Delegate So he bet But he sees it as a chance To like show Cambodia beauty to the world. Right. It's kind of like a PR thing.

Fine, fine. Visit Cambodia. So he, Sienuk revokes these treaties that have been signed in 63 and 64, which have been like unequal treaties with the French. And he, when the French are defeated,

when the, sorry, when the Nazis are defeated, he seizes the opportunity to just proclaim independence in 45. But this is not recognized internationally. Everyone's like, nah.

And so he appoints, this guy Son Gok Tan Yeah Pretty good As Prime Minister He's a sort of nationalist Right

He had previously organised Anti-French protests He's the one who starts The Khmer language newspaper So there's a bit of a power vacuons Now formed Basically With who actually runs

Cambodia But then the French eventually So obviously the French Have just been Well they didn't even really beat the Nazis They just got rid of them Then the French come back And put him under

they arrest him and exile and put him onto house arrest but they've got a little bit less they've got far less power now when the French come back because now it's a bit more like well you fucking left us that's my point about the protector

as you fucked it right so but then this is what's quite interesting is that the French you know we talked to obviously in the post world British series about this sort of series of declines and we just let it go

the French fucking really try and hang on to it because they get they come back after World War II and are like right let's fucking let's get it back. It's clearly

a part of their lost kind of virality from World War II they really wanted to hold on to these because they're very similar in Vietnam as well they hold onto it

very tight in the 50s so this starts in a way that Britain doesn't really no so this starts the first Indochinese war the second one is known as the Vietnam War

India versus China no that's not they're not even coming they're not into it it is like calling World War to the Brazil Hawaii War like it's just irrelevant

it is but yeah the first inter-Chinese war is the France basically trying to get back their colonies of Vietnam and Cambodia and maybe Lao

and it's very important especially for the Vietnam story as well this is the origin of the beginning because via Ho Chi Minh who is the the original jungle communist leader of North Vietnam I guess

Jungle Corbin Hocci Min he But then I guess what's Corbyn's actually concrete Ho Chi Minh,

isn't it? He's going off the back of Ho Chi Minh. So I don't know what he would be called. Council House Ho Chi Minh? So he's Jungle Lenin. Ho Chi Minh's Jungle Lenin.

And then, yeah. Corbin is... Corbin's inner city. Yeah. Inner city Stalin, I guess. I don't know. Foggy. Overcast.

Yeah. Anyway, so Jungle Lenin. Big beans Ho Chi Men. Yeah. So, Jungle Lenin, Hocci Min. Sorry, allotment Hocci Min. Yes, yeah, there we go. Got it.

We got it. We got there. So he starts, he forms the Viet Minh, which is the communist, the northern Vietnam thing. And there's also, and then in Cambodia, see, it all gets very complicated now. It's kind of a three-way fight in that you have the northern Vietnamese who are fighting the French to try and get control of Vietnam. but they also want Cambodia to be absorbed into Vietnam. And at all points throughout this story, the Vietnamese are funded by the Chinese.

The Chinese are funding it because Mao's about. And at all times in this story, the Vietnamese are kind of like patronising the Cambodians and not letting them. There's a lot of ethnic tensions. Yes, which is confusing. Yeah. Because they seem to be the same ethnicity.

But again, this is, you know, the myth that it's only white people that are racist is really exposed here. But it's Britain and Ireland, right? I guess so. They'd look at us saying we'd look the same. They've got bigger heads. I know, you can spot that. Yes, I'm an expert.

I'm an amateur technologist. But I imagine, Charlie, can you Google who has the bigger heads, Vietnamese or Cambodian people? Yeah, there must be some sort of database. There must be. There is no data to suggest that people in Vietnam or Cambodia have larger heads than the other. Well, you know what kind of projects we need the patron to fund? We need to get on a plane with some calipers stat.

Your dad went out to make documentaries in Cambodia. I'm going to have it to measure some heads. So the Cambodians have this thing called the Khmer Isirak, who are kind of, they're nationalists, sort of. They're not really communist. It's not like as distinct left, right. There's so much going on. And also anti-colonial, anti-imperialist kind of all blends into it as well. because there's nationalists who can be anti-imperialists

as well as communists but there's no sense yet they don't know what communism is there's no left or right it's basically it's get the French out of here but this is what's funny about the book the guy says that Cambodia doesn't have

the Judeo-Christian Christian sense of good versus evil it has jungle versus town and it's forest versus village that's the binary they're like the it's so far removed from our yeah understanding

of our tree of knowledge yeah there's their root it's a tree it's an actual tree it's a palm tree that they're sitting under with their legs up wait for a goat and it's not good versus evil it's tree versus village it's tree versus village and if you're in the village you're bad I think if you're in the town you're bad

right basically it's such an individualistic family like there's no real community outside the family and if there is they think it's bad right because they think it's bourgeois sort of I don't really know it's like spirits It's an evil. Yeah, it's just voodoo. Right.

It's voodoo. But you call Catholicism voodoo. It is voodoo. There's incense, the smells. It's black magic. Catholicism is black magic. Look what the, look what the Vaskan do, you know? Anyway, so the French side of the first inter-Chinese war, you have the state of

Vietnam, which... Look at the state of Vietnam. Look at the state of Vietnam. US and France have recognized a government of Vietnam, but that's in what would now then be the south vietnam is that dm oh fuck hell south vietnam the u.s propped up yeah yeah um and then you have the kingdom of lao and you have the kingdom of cambod lao go ignore lao i don't know what the fuck's going on ignore lao ignore it yeah what's what's la what i've got to hang on to in lao tree houses no there's a lot of tree houses i think so uh yeah natural landscapes i don't know if that's enough

yeah what's there to do in lao no what's lao famous for what's lao famous for famous most famous Lausian. Landscapes. And Buddhism. What's the most famous Lausian ever done? Land of a million elephants. Okay.

Elephants. Anyway, you have The Cambo... We won't be doing an episode on it. We will never do an episode. We'll be covering that boy shot. This is the most we'll ever talk about Laos. So you have this...

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This balance is not working. And the naked gun. That was awesome. Now that's a mountain of entertainment. First in the China War, Cambodia is indirectly involved as it's sort of this key location for the moving supplies and troops. I mean, this is a huge part. The Vietnam forces. Whether the North make what's called the Ho Chi Men's trade.

but I don't know if that's in this war. Yes, it doesn't start to 59, but basically because the, now the US at this point, and this is a really key part of the story. Yeah, it is. But the US don't recognize Cambodia, Cambodian borders for a long time.

Right. And so that trail that goes in and out of the Vietnam, Cambodia border, Ho Chi Minh, Jungle Corbin or whatever, he uses that to his advantage to kind of vary troops and supplies. It's a huge part, basically,

a quicker way round is basically it's like when you're going through from South Wales to North Wales you had to go back through England Yeah you've got to go to Cheshire Yeah you've got to go via Cheshire Basically to move supplies And because North Vietnam's been bombed to shit

North Wales is awful It's been bombed by the... It seems like it's been bombed like napalm strikes Rill could do with the napalm strikes I did a gig in a leisure centre in real once Oh, Lao's the most bomb country in history I thought that was Cambodia I think it's both of them

Right So the Ho Chi Minh Trail obviously goes through both. It must do, basically. And all of the supplies that the North Vietnamese need to keep their guerrilla war going. But that's slightly later than what we're talking about now. But yeah, basically the point is it's all a massive soup. Right.

It's a hot pot. Yeah. It's Pol Pot's hot pot. Right. So Cambodia holds its first elections in 1946. It's won by the Democrats who are heavily influenced by the French. And Si Anuk is kind of designated as a constitutional monarch and his power is kind of reduced.

He doesn't like that. Now, in 51, they win again the Democrats, and they're opposed to Cianuk's kind of pro-independence starts because they're basically French puppets. So Cianuk flees to fight with the Khmer Isirak, who are the kind of Cambodian nationalists. Now, this all kind of gets wrapped up at the Geneva conference in 1954.

I love how Geneva is essentially the world's referee. Yeah. It's like, right, guy, come on, come on, everyone, get together. What's going on? Let's sort of this out. So all the forces, different belligerents, they sign the thing, which ends eight years of the first war. And the conference orders removal of all Vietnam forces in Cambodia within 90 days, and everyone has to demobilize. And so Cambodia agrees to be kind of military neutral, right, which Sinook then is able to play off, right, where everyone was.

So the Cambodian communists, if that even is a thing at that point, they feel excluded. And so the Vietnamese don't feel they've had really anything. So they start to distrust the Vietnamese and the... It's not Snook. Snook and Minge. Viet Minge and Snook. Don't respond. Carry on.

You really like leaving Charlie out of hand to drive, do you? Anyway, so Cambodian independence. So in 1953, he goes, oh, I'm off on for my holidays. A bit like the Shah of Iran. A lot of it. This happens a lot. Yeah. You have a third world leader monarch.

Yeah. He's never in the country. Yeah. He's lost to shit. So he goes to France to request full independence, right? And he fears the kind of growing popularity of the Khmer Isirak. And he feels his status is going to be threatened. Yeah.

Now the French don't say yes to this. But then he goes, ah, fuck off. And he goes and he propagizes it in the US and Canada and stuff. And he then places himself on the self-imposed exile in Thailand, much like your dad. there's a lot of men in their 50s and self-imposed ex-I in Thailand I understand it it's interesting

what's going on in there there's no judgment in Thailand I'm in exile but no I'm in exile I'm in exile I have to do this I'm in exile from my own country yeah I'm an exile for my family in Thailand they've kicked me out and I may have left

because I want to know what it's like I want to try it and I feel I'll be judged in the UK so he took a risk right but France is so weak by this point and they and also You should say the actual fighting in the first Indochina war they don't fucking

it's a stalemate they're defeated by the early version of the Viet Cong basically right but is it guerrilla versus guerrilla warfare what do you mean

because it's two jungle warfares against each other oh I thought you were being racist against the French called them actual guerrillas it's guerrillas yeah yeah

so many levels so many levels to this it's a racist lasagna this thing so the French don't really do anything so Sianuk just basically

pounces and declares French independence again Cambodian independence from France and this is a sort of granted and so he returns to Phnom Penhiro in 1954 or four doesn't matter so basically the French have tried their best to hold on to Cambodia yeah but the rebels have pressured them they can't maintain it no eventually give it so this is the French Vietnam War right it just so happens to be in Vietnam yeah Um, 953. Yeah.

So that, that's kind of the, the context. Yes. Right. That's the world. What's the worst that could happen sort of vibe?

Yeah. So it's all looking good. Yeah. Cambodian independence. They've done it. Yeah. Now, while this is going on,

mm-hmm. There is a young boy born under the name Saloth Saar. Yeah. And then he keeps for a lot of his life. Yeah. Because Pol Pot's like his Heisenberg sort of soon. Yeah. That's end of season two where he puts the hat on.

Fedora on. Put the fedora on. But Sal al-Sar is kind of before he really turns, you know, to the dark side. That's his given name. Yeah. So that's Anakin Skywalker. Yeah. Yeah.

So he's born into an actually pretty wealthy... Similar to Mao. By Cambodian standards. Very similar to Mao. Very similar. So basically a rich peasant. Yeah. In a way.

Yeah. Sort of. Lower middle class? Lower middle class, right. So his father owns 50 acres of rice, which is 10 times the average. Yeah. So that low, middle class, he can. Cambodia, but what's low middle class here?

Does it mean your dad works at Foxton's? I don't know. I don't think you tell us lower middle class. Right. What's the classic low middle class job here then? Probably a car, like an electrician or something. That low middle class? No.

No, that's cash in hand and they own their own companies and they got a van and stuff and they're doing pretty well. Okay, so his dad's a sparky. They're culturally working class, but they're economic. I mean, this is the point. In Britain, it's like, it's all cultural rather than actually economic. Because like Russell Bramwood's arm fucking working class You know

It's true But he's rich Yeah So all right So his dad's like a sparky Yeah let's say his dad's sparky Anyway So he

This young boy Saloth Saar His cousin is one of the favorite consorts Of Prince Monivong And his oldest brother works As a clerk at the Royal Palace And one of his sisters Becomes a consort of Monivong

Monivong had nearly 50 consorts during his life and so he's basically he's got connection to the royal palace so as he's a spoiled kid comparatively to his friends and stuff

in the village there's a lot of poverty but he's like they've got quite a successful farm he doesn't have to face the brunt of a lot of poverty he loves drama he plays the violin

he's very good at football especially for a scissor kick yes so it's sort of like a Higwita kind of vibe he lives in a Buddhist monastery for a year Decanios is a kick

and he does end up to canoing Cambodia. So he's kind of just called Unremarkable. The probably most interesting about his childhood is that he,

with his connection to the Royal Palace, he goes in and he has all these sexual encounters with the King's concubines. And according to an academic, quote,

two of the palace women remembered that when Little Tsar came in, the women would gather around him, tease him, eventually loosen his waistband, fondle his genitals, and masturbate him to a climax. So he's essentially getting milked,

by the royal house. I mean, that's quite, that's quite a fantasy, that isn't it? Adler's Mondays. Office for the day. Yeah. Woke up here.

It's just him getting milked up. I mean, he doesn't get much better than that, is that all the women gathered around you, teasing you, like, because they're making fun of it.

How old are they? How old are they? How old are them? The concubats? How old are the ladies? I don't know. They're probably like 19, 20, and he's like 13.

That's a pretty, I mean, as far as, as far as, first sexual experience that's what you want you want an attractive older woman to be making fun of you in buckingham palace and then they say come here you little loser loosen your waistband yeah and then i mean how helpless must he be yeah in a great way it's basically like um stage diving but you're being wanked off but imagine imagine going to buckingham palace because you know somebody

works there but still you feel like you have to dress up and like around the corner people are getting their obees and you're just being like oh oh you're just being like milked he's got milked yeah by like like, I don't know, Prince Beatrice or whoever. Which is because Charlie's ended his dry spell, it was getting so bad that we were going to have to milk. We're going to have to milk you, yeah. We're going to have to loosen your waistband and fond of your genitals until you... This is what Charlie thinks will happen one day when he comes into the office

and that we'll all gather around him and eventually just wake up. He was getting pretty erratic. He was, you had three months without a shag. Yeah, it was affecting my work. You were ripping down curtains. It's affecting your work. It was, it was. What was the excuse before that then?

Uh, I don't know. I don't know. No, no, no, we can't know. We can't know. But he does seem throughout his life, and part of what I think is interesting about Saloth's art is he's clearly a charming boy. He's got a, get his smile up.

There is a charisma. He's got an incredible smile. He ends up looking quite a lot like a young Gary Shandling. Yeah, yeah. Do you see that? Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah, he does have this late night smile charm. Yeah, look at that.

Yeah, he looks like Gary Shandling. Yeah. He's very photogenic. Yeah, great smile. Yeah. similar to Mao as well Mao had a good he does look a bit

like Garishandling you're right yeah he does yeah it is it's crazy well there could be a rumor that Pol Pot is Garishandling they're the same

but Mal had a similar kind of you know cheeky smile look at his shaking hands he's very very photogenic likable so yeah that's a big part

of the story because it's not none of that a lot of time it's a mastermind someone's super intelligent it seems like his smile took him

a long way yeah because he was thick yeah they all were Yeah, his tallest dwarf thing I guess, you know, he's the most clever thick person. By the late 1940s, he had failed all his exams. He went to one of the lisees in Cambodia.

One of the three schools. One of the three French schools, but he failed all the exams. To be fair to him, it's all in French. Yeah. I was terrible at French. I can't. People in glass houses. And he's a rice farmer who's got a scissor kick.

So I guess, you know, in nowadays schooling, we would have been like, well, what's he good at? You know, let's send him to Loughborough Uni. Yeah. You know, he would have done a sports science degree at Luffington. Yeah, right, but he ends up being a communist leader. That's what's so funny. He's done one year of uni at Loughborough because he's good at scissor kicking.

He should be a PT, not a, he should be a PT. He should be giving me piles and David Lloyd. That's what he should be doing, Pol Pot. I've got Paul Piles. He should be like a charming, it would be a charming PT with a nice smile. Yeah. Not much going on. He's giving me Paul Piles.

Yeah. Anyway, it's what happens when a Loughbury uni dropout takes over a country. It's a blood bath. So, but in 1914. 49, he wins one of five national scholarships to go and study in France. And so... This is a defining moment, right? Because there's very few people who actually pick for this.

Yes. So this is the kind of great sliding doors moment. Since 1900, only 250 Cambodians ever get to go and study in France. Right. So this is the big turning point of his life in many ways. And I think... Now, I think it's either the day he gets on the ship or it's the day he arrives in Paris. I have a feeling it's the day he arrived in Palace.

It's the same day in 19... 49 or 50, when Mao declares communist China. Right. So it's a very potent historical day. For Asian communism. For Asian communism. Yeah. For jungle Lenins around the world.

Yeah. So he, again, in Paris in this time, it's like, this is Sartre, it's Camus. It's the ultimate, stinky French, snooty, smoking cigarette. Yeah, Paris, it's a seminar room talking about how awful capitalism is. but you don't know that people are listening to you. Yeah. And they might actually do... Oh, no, don't do it.

No, don't, please don't do it. Oh, fuck. Oh, shit. No, no, we talk about it. Yeah, we just talk about it. We winch. Yeah, we're winching. No, I don't...

Oh, fuck. But they're also, it's where, like, existentialism's coming in. Yeah. After the war. There's a lot of nihilism. Yeah. And he's there... Anti-colonialism.

He's getting every sort of fourth word. Pol Pot. He's listening in to all these, like... Are you listening, Paul? He's just doing scissors kicks. Yeah! So he's studying radio engineering. He finds academic life difficult and uninspiring.

Obviously, he fails exams there again. But he begins socialising with Marx's students because it's the 50s in Paris. And one of the most transformative thing is that he has an opportunity in like the summer. He can either go to Switzerland on a camping holiday or he can go to Yugoslavia to build like a railway program

or build motorway in Zagreb. And the Yugoslavia trip is free. So he goes, well, I'll do that. And this is where he sees communism in action. And he's like, oh, this is good. Is it good at this stage? I think if you just see someone build a motorway, you think, well, that's brilliant.

Right, right. But mind, he's never seen a road. Fair enough. Let alone a motorway. Yeah. So he's like, fucking hell, communism. Yeah. Crazy.

He's got three lanes of traffic. We've just got a dirt road with a goat on it. Yeah. He joined the circler Marxist in 51, which is where he meets his mate, Leng Sari who is later becomes

one of the top Khmer Rouge guys Brother number three Brother number three Paul Paul brother number one brother number one brother number two Brother number two

Brother number three Yeah number six So they have these like reading sessions Yeah And again he's not particularly vocal

during these meetings because he describes them all as going above his head and they were led by people with diplomas which he did not have That's quite funny I was over my head

No I didn't know what was going on but you did he did enact it you didn't run a communist society yeah I didn't know what it was though

to be fair to him he says so he read now the book that we read the Philip Short book is very funny about this

is that Pol Pot reads Marx Lenin and Robespier but finds it all quote bewildering he's going I got no fucking idea

what this is not a clue because you have to remember Marxism is written about German industrial society industrial society it's nice that he admits

it well yeah At this point, yeah. But you don't know the rest of the He seems like a nice guy. You don't know what the rest of the story is, Charlie. When I was reading it, because in the Philip short book, it gets so long before anything bad happens.

I'm really liking Paul. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's coming across, he's getting milked, he's shagged out, he's kicking the ball around. Yeah. He's got a nice smile. Like, he definitely is likable at this stage. Yeah, he's nailing it.

I don't know. He's going to France going, I don't know, what's going on. Anyone want to milk me here, you know? I'm excited to see what happens. Yeah. What's the worst that could happen? Yeah. I will say for later episodes

it'll be the gnarliest stuff we've ever talked about I will say that now we've had a lot of fruit loops on this show sure this cunts absolutely crackers yeah right anyway um you can quote me on that he's bananas this guy what he goes on to do is

it's not cricket it's definitely not cricket pop pot this cunt's absolutely crackers this pot that's my point we've had a lot of fruit lips on the show but this cunt's absolutely crack. It's all these bananas. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can quipe on that. I'll stand by all of that. Your Honor, I stand by it. He's a fruit loop. He's a mad man. He's just a bit off. Yeah, there's something off about him. Something off about him.

But again, Charlie, you wouldn't know that at this stage. He's a young boy who's being milked by, you know, the Queen's, called sorts, whatever. He's getting Fanny and he can't, he doesn't understand. He's getting funny and he's got a scissor kick. And he's a good time. He seems like to be like... What other dictators have got a scissor kick?

Yeah. You know? True. Don't think Hitler had a scissor kick Don't even hit that had a scissor No No no I can't think of anyone

This smiley nice man I think Gaddafi might have had some Gaddafi's in gold Doing a Higwita Goodaffi's unorthodox I imagine Gaddafi had some Could do quite a few keepy upies Because famously his son was awful of football

And he bought the football club So I don't think Gaddafi can play football Anyway So he is reading these books That make no sense to him Because Cambodia does not have have an industrial class or really a sense of community. No. It's a jungle.

The jungle and village. They have the forest and they have the town. Yeah. And the town is bad. I don't know why. Yeah. But the town is bad. Maybe because it's French. Sure. Because French are building towns. It's, yeah, it's a jungle. Who knows? I'm a Cambodian

get me out of here. Right. So Anodeca are they in this camp? Antone Deca there. They should do they should do a Killingfield's version of Andes they should. Yeah. Well, you just send Gemma Collins to the killing fields. I'm a celebrity, get me out of this genocide. Yeah.

So Pol Pot much prefers Stalin because he can sort of understand that. He gets it. Purity, self-criticism. And he likes Mao because obviously at this point, Mao is adapting communism to the Chinese reality of peasant. Yeah, it's moving away from the industrial thing to be more rural rice farmers, peasantry. But this is the great problem with Cambodian communism,

is that, and I've said this you before, like Chinese whispers communism in that you have Russia, right, that's communism. And then China's like, oh yeah,

I get that, we'll do a version of it. And then Vietnam's like, oh yeah, I get that. By the time it gets to Cambodia, they're like, oh yeah,

you just kill everyone with glasses. Yeah, I get it, right. Anyone who's got a degree, just murder. Yeah, whatever. Anyway,

we'll get to that. So he sort of starts to crystallize his worldview that Cambodia's salvation will come through revolution by the rural poor and not the political process.

Okay. So, anyway, the Marxist circle decides that one member should return to Cambodia to see what's going on because at this point, the French Indochina War is still happening. And they don't know who to support because it's fucking, it's a massive hot pot of who knows, right? So Pol Pot, having failed his exams and lost his scholarship, volunteers to go back, because I think he's about to be kicked out of Paris anyway. And at this point, he returns to Cambodia. Now, maybe we should leave this episode here.

It's perfectly set up. Perfectly. Our next episode is already on the Patreon, the Pol Potrian, where for three pounds a month you can get early access to episodes and a little bonus episode every Friday this week we'll be doing the ancient city of empire of Angkor and we're also doing history of house arrest

a lot of fun we meet Oscar Pistorius and some other characters the first time so sign up to the patron for instant access but if not in our next episode we will see what Pol Pot does

when he gets back to Cambodia and I'll tell you now It's a bit fucking fruiting. This guy's a fruit cake, right? You heard it here first, folks. You heard it here first. Pol Pot, quote, fruitcake. Thanks for joining us.

We'll see you next time. Thank you.