Fin vs History - L.A.P.D (The Los Angeles Phrenology Department) | The People vs O.J. Simpson (Part 2/4)

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

The juice is loose, with nothing but a gun and a fake goatee for company.   OJ Simpson (Part Two) The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.   For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon  ⁠patreon.com/fintaylor  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome back to Finn versus History. I'm with Horatio Gould. Hello. And we are in part two of our epic OJ Simpson series. Our Bronco ride through the history of race relations in America. Wee! In our last part, we set out who OJ was, a black man who wasn't black. Yep.

A self-denying black man. A self-denying black man who identified as himself that wasn't black. Post-racial, actually. Post-racial in 60s America. Yeah. That is extraordinary, isn't it? Probably the most racial anywhere has ever been. And he was like a barma in the 60s.

And he, like a runner in America football, dodged every one trying to make about race. Yeah, no. No, thank you. Until he got to the fucking end zone. Yeah. Now, we are, O.J. Simpson was a college sports star. Did you do any sports at university?

What did I do? I did a bit of football. But that was it pretty much. I, my first term at Bristol, joined breakdance sock. No way. Way. I did it for a term. It's where I...

How big were you at this point? I wasn't big. I wasn't small, but I wasn't big. The great stretching had happened. The stretching had happened. The great stretching. Yeah. The great leap upwards.

The stretching years. The stretching years. The stretched years. The great leap upward had happened. I was still soft, bellied. Sure. Never been hard bellied in my life. you could hide it

with the right clothes with the right clothes with a suit and a high waistband I can hide my gunt right my f yeah anyway

when you're low riding and I don't know as much about breakdancing as you 'd have to surely that's quite the gun does the gun I guess very bagging clothes yes bagging clothes

but then then his gun's completely out sorry watching a guy a fat guy break dance That's actually footage of me at Bristol University. So you told me through what was going on. Was it an identity crisis? Are you trying to work out?

I guess you need to work out who you are. It's the first year of uni. It's Bristol. It's 2008. And I was a white guy joined breakdance sock. Well, financial crash had just happened? We didn't know who it was. We didn't see a future.

Also, how were you going to make money? You didn't know. Traditional means. Generally, I started stand up. Breakdance is recession proof. It is. At any point you can make... You can be a homeless guy,

breakdards on the street. might give you some money. I started stand-up maybe a month after I joined breakdance sock and there was a time when I was doing both and then I thought

maybe I had there was slightly more legs in my stand-up career than my breakdowns there was an alternative timeline so you were doing stand-up and you're doing

spin on my head I never stand on my head I could never get that there was a guy who did be spin in his head and we all thought well that's I'm not that

my wife did it as well my wife did break dance did you meet your wife in break dance on. Yeah, she, I met her before, but she,

yeah, she, um, she was there as well. Is that when you realize you were, you know, meant to be together? Yeah,

when you were both body- down, I thought, I'm gonna marry that one. She looked normal upside down. And then she stood up, I went, oh dear, right.

She was doing the worm. She was body popping. And I was like, the montage of the film, I'm like, wow. And she's just like, she's a white, she's a white word from Surrey.

Suddenly up here. Every time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. beatboxing.

Yeah, no, I did it for a term. And then I learned, I learned a couple of moves that for, I'd say my 20s, I could shock a dance floor with like... I mean, that doesn't mean it's good or bad. Shocking, I could shock a dance floor.

No, but as in, you look at you, and you look at you think... I just get my cock out, I'd shock a dance floor. That's easy as hell. Well, yeah, I guess, you know, Florida nightclub, you could just shoot it up. I'm not saying that. I'm saying...

I'm saying, right? I didn't shoot up Pulse Nightclub. But I'm saying, as a guy who you would not think could break dance, I had a couple of moves that I could do until about 10 years ago, where I was at the Edinburgh Festival, and I did a knee drop, and I misjudged it, and I basically just dropped on my knee on the floor of the caves. Like from standing, just basically just fell on my knee. A medieval cave, yeah.

Yeah, and my knees never really been the same thing. Is that when you retired? Pretty much, yeah. For breakdancing. Yeah, yeah. I had a dodgy knee, and I had to retire. God. Like Abu Diyabi.

Exactly. Your career just ruined. The potential you had to be a great break dancer. Blighted with injuries. Yeah. Much like O.J. Simpson was. Yes. And we are talking about O.J. Simpson.

We must not forget that. But there's actually a lot of stuff to talk about. There's a lot of stuff to talk about. We can't get sidetracked. We can't get sidetracked by my sick breakdancing career. And the fact that I could do a sick step. Was it a body, is one of them where you step forward and go, Oh.

Is it one of the... It was one of the... No, that's kind of what you're doing is you're going around a circle and you're all doing this and then you're all sort of doing this as in like, I'm going to come in and break dance next.

Okay. But I'm not. Okay. Well, it's sort of like, Mock the Week, where you're all... Very like Mock the Week. Where you're like...

Oh, no. Yeah. the quotas for female comics, there was a massive point of people making huge gestures. You'd see Hugh Dennis go. Prasheen, please, please, please. Please, let Sarah Pasco have a go. Anyway.

And then go, I like it, let her of a go, and then as soon as she starts speaking, you go on your phone, bored. My turn. Anyway. What I'd do is, you know when, you know that the guy, the leader of Britain, Tommy Robinson turned his back when Sadiq Khan won

the mayor of, Or was it the leader of Britain first? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's me when the woman speaks and what the week. I'll turn my back. Carrie Godderman goes up. In process. That's me at any comedy night.

Top secret where there's women on. No, no. Not in my name. We are talking about the OJ Simpson trial and we left off with two bodies are found at Nicole Brown Simpson's house. one was Nicole Brown Simpson. The other one is her friend. Ron plays Ron Time Goldman.

Not a friend though. No, a gay waiter. Gay waiter. Who was coming back for the rest of which is a 25-year-old L-A waiter who obviously has other aspirations because he's an L-A waiter, right? So he wants to be a model. Which is a slur in my arsenal. He's a bit of a...

L-A waiter, if you know what I mean. Before we get to the trial, we need to sort of paint the other main character in this story, which is the LAPD. Because the trial essentially becomes, it's quite a unique trial in that you have a man who's on trial for murder, but then what his defence do is they basically turn it into a trial on the LAPD and its effectiveness. Maybe the most effective use of what aboutery there is? Extraordinary. It's also the thickest, heaviest race carth has ever been played.

To an extraordinary degree. And for a man who famously didn't see race even than himself, it's one of the amazing pivots that's ever been. So at the start of this episode, we're going to just explore the LAPD. Yeah, it's like when Black and... You know, the Wizard of Oz goes from black and white to colour? Yeah. That's OJ during the style. Yeah. But it's the other way around.

He's in colour and he goes to black and white. Yeah. Now, the LAPD were allegedly a brutal and violent police force, as any kind of American police force in the 60s was. But the depiction of them, LAPD, all the cop shows are about them. They were seen as the most heroic police, kind of like the most famous police department, maybe apart from the NYPD.

In all the cop shows, NYPD. And also, LA was maybe sold in the earlier parts of the 20th century as kind of like a great liberal home for black people to come from the South. Kind of a utopia, like an escape from the worst. From how racist the South was,

they en masse moved to LA. But they found quite quickly that the LAPD were actually just as bad as any. I think in the documentary, Surprise. Oh. Just as racist.

The only difference is they didn't use dogs in L.A. Right. That was the guy says that in the documentary. So they're woke. It's L.A. It's woke nonsense. They're not policing the black communities with police dogs. Yeah.

So in early 20th century L.A. And most of America, it's very racially restrictive. And the city is like, what's it called? There was a, there's basically this strategy that American council is zoning. Zoning or redlining. Yeah, redlining. Redlining is when you essentially, by tampering with the market, you make certain areas racially distinct.

Yeah. And you make it impossible for any kind of racial social mobility to happen because you, I don't know. You ball tamper, but with zoning laws. Yes. So wartime migration had brought many black workers to California. But then, as we say, housing shortages, redlining, etc., confines them to these overcrowded neighborhoods, projects. And all the post-war kind of expansion basically just benefits white residents.

the LAPD itself, there was a guy called William H. Parker who was the chief of police. William H. White Man, Wightman, H. White Man, H. White Man. Buzzcut, mustache. I'm just imagining this.

Yeah, it's his Wonderbred White. He coined the term Thin Blue Line, interestingly. Oh, wow. I don't know what was in reference to. Yep. Maybe a line that he drew on a map saying everyone ever hears white.

Yeah. But he, oh, there you go. Buzzcutter mustache. I was right. White McWhiteface. Whiteface. He recruits officer. from the South, supposedly direct from the clan.

Sort of like our hiring policy at Fambruski. Yep, Fred Richardson will be on the next episode. He's left his hood at the door and he's coming in. Cut out the middle man. Cut out of the middle clan. Cut out of the middle clan. Look at that, Charlie. Doesn't actually quite work because, but yeah, it's nice.

It'll do. Yeah, it'll do. So, yeah, the officers he recruits from the South already have quite fruity attitudes. Yeah. And when you say fruity, you don't mean gay. I don't mean gay. Famously, I don't mean gay.

I mean anti-black. Yeah, deeply, violently, almost genocidally racist. Yes. They're fruit. I like the term fruity because it covers a multitude of sins. It does. It does. A bit fruity.

This salad's a bit fruity. There's raisins in it. That police force is a bit fruity. They're from the Clucots clan. You know, it's, it's, uh, yeah. It's a linguistically stretchy word, and I like it. Anyway, speaking of fruitiness, the Watts riots in August 1965, so there's a woman called Marquette Fry.

I just think black names in this, they just, you know, it's the real, it's the dawn of the... The squeacher. The long road for the squeesia. It is the long road to the squeesia. And where do these names come from? Because I want to, you know, at what point does names, diverged like is it must be after the Civil War there's the whole like slave names and

people some people have slaves when does Lisk, when do things like the school yeah when does the Suisher how do like Littisha how where did these names come from do the etymology of Lusquisha please Charlie find out where Lusquisha comes from I want to know if during the what's right there was a woman called Lusquisha there Lusquisha likely version of Lachisha modern African-American coinage derived from Kezia meaning cinnamon tree with the common lab okay so it's basically like Oh, so it's French, isn't it? Right.

Oh, because of course, because it'd be like Haiti, French colonies. Yes, Creole. French are in the south of the States. Hey? The Keisha. The Keisha. But like, it's La. It's like the.

So you're basically saying, the Keish. My name is the Squish. Yeah. Anyway, the LAPD fucking smash Keish is in 1965. Right. Right. They throw Keish all over the floor. It's like English pizza. It's not English.

It's French. It's French. No, but it's English. Right. The vibe is English. No, there's definitely. It's culturally permeable across the channel. It evokes a garden party.

English people don't kick the quiche out of bed. It's not foreign French muck because it's egg, ham and bread. We're like, we understand this. It's just a different way of doing a fry-up. But it evokes a garden party where a man in red trousers with a red nose is saying something just tasteful about his gay neighbour. He's using the word fruity as I would use it. And he's eating keesh.

Anyway, Marquette Frye is pulled over by Officer Minicus for alleged reckless driving on the 11th of August, 1965. She fails a sobriety test. Is Marquette a man or a woman? It's a man. Well, there you go. I'm lost. La squeeshia. La squeesh.

Marquette. Yeah. Lecoach me up. I'm done. I'm done. I don't know what the fuck's going on. Anyway, so he, sorry, Marquette, he fails a sobriety test. He's placed under arrest.

his brother, who is a passenger, goes to get his mum, Rina. She scolds her son for drinking and driving, but then in the kind of fracker, someone shoves his mum, Fry gets hit, someone draws a shotgun, and then essentially this massive confrontation happens, and then people are starting to gather and watch. This is all like an intersection in LA. A rumours circulator, the officer's kicked a pregnant woman.

I don't know where that started, that's just hearsay. Anyway, they start claiming police brutality. They throw objects. everyone gets arrested. It basically turned into a massive riot. At this point he's at USC. And he's right next to what. He's just running.

But USC's in the middle, like right next to Watts. And so riot spread across Watts lasted for six days. The police response reinforces these ideas that they're kind of an occupying military force rather than to protect. And this kind of only gets worse. Then you have these big,

these sort of major big flashpoints in the 20th century in LA. The Yula love shooting in 1979, LAPD officers shot. and killed an unarmed black woman over a disputed gas bill. Supposedly, she didn't pay her gas bill. Right. And the officers, to be fair, you know...

EDF. Is that EDF energy gets... IDF. Yeah. Yeah, IDF energy. Christ. Too right. IDF energy turn up.

These days. These days. I don't know what that means. Even for us, I've got no idea what that means. What are we saying there? If you say these days, you're safe. These days. Or you're really not.

These days, you can't put me in jail for saying these days. I think these days you can. These days you can. These days. Say anything, you get in jail these days. IDF energy, yeah, they don't muck about with uncollected gas bills. It gets ruled as justifiable homicide. Right.

Which I think may be a stretch. I think she's on her front lawn maybe. And she just shouts back at the police. and they maybe shoot her. Or maybe she had a knife. Maybe she had a knife. Anyway, no officers are faced any charges for this

and its rule is justifiable. And this is brilliant. This is quite, this is brilliant. This is when a bit of phrenology comes in. This is, this is, in late 1970s, an honest man called Darrell Gates, is chief of the LAPD

and he's just sprinkling phrenology over these press conferences. I mean, look at him. He does not look raced as tall, does he? No, no. I do think if you've got very short hair as a white man you have to work harder to not seem racist. People can read into that while I've grown my hair long.

Darrell Gates believes that the reason for a higher rate of black death during arrest is because, quote, big quote, black people are more susceptible than normal people to injuries from chokeholds. Right. So much to unpack there. I mean, he's on the ground, though.

He's an empiricist. Do you know what I mean? Who are we? It's easy for us to sit in the sofa. Armchair phrenologist that we are. He's actually on the ground. He's in the field. He's got the calipers, you know.

He's got a trench coat. He's got a, you know, he's got stuff on his, he's got a holster for his calipers in his spell. He's doing trial and error. He's logging information. He's got early findings from the field. He's our man on the ground and he says that black people are more susceptible than his lovely use of the word normal.

people to injuries from chokeholds. I guess maybe the asterix and it's a small asterisk I'd say is that normal people don't get any injuries from chokeholds. Yes. So, yeah. Normal people are never in chokeholds

in this era. Because they're normal. Okay. Yeah, in Darrow's. Small asterisk. Small asterisk. The only test he's been doing is on black people.

Yes, it's a skewed sample size. It's a skewed sample, yeah. Which phrenologists must are always guilty, actually, of skewed samples. He has nothing to compare it to, is what I'm saying. A true phrenologist never turns the calipers on himself. Yeah. Anyway, he also says that Hispanic officers don't advance within the ranks because they're lazy. Yeah.

I think that's fine. Interestingly, that Latino racism, there's so much black races to deal with, Latino stuff, everyone has to just drop. But he can't, him calling Latina's lazy. It's like, we can't deal with that. We've got much bigger forms. Yeah. We're going to have to do it.

We're nowhere near ready to deal with that. I mean, to be honest, the problem, both problems would be solved if the Hispanic officers were responsible for chokeholding the black people because they were too lazy to chokeholding the black people. This is where you're brilliant, Finn. Two birds, one stone. All right? Bringing races together through racial stereotype. Okay? The Spaniards are too lazy to choke out the black victims.

Right. So you'd solved it there. Anyway, in 1987, there was a large scale, I'm getting emotional now, a large scale attempt to crack down. on gang violence in LA named Operation Hammer. This started in the run up to the 84 Olympic Games, for which OJ and Nicole ran through the city with the torch. So is that the LA Games? Yeah, the LA Games.

From 84 to 89, complaints of police brutality increased by 33%. And there was a big raid by 88 LAPD officers in August 88, which leads to this deadly shootout, leaving 15 gang members dead. This massive search for drugs and follow. And do you remember... Is this Reagan's War on Drugs? Yeah. Kicking as well.

But there's this documentary, in the OJ documentary, they show that woman's house that the LAPD have gone through. Yeah. And it's like, it's generally like you've set a fucking fleet of raccoons loose.

Well, just smashed everything up. They like, pull the sink off the wall, the bath up, they're looking for drugs. In the end, they find like a bit of hash. Yeah. Like a couple of bags of weed.

And this woman's house is like beyond fucked. And because the police have done it, I think she has no home insurance that will cover it. But this is Reagan's America, right, where he's like, is during this period that they're like introducing crack

into black neighborhoods and stuff like that, right? So it's kind of the height of this sort of stuff. So by 1990, over 50,000 people have been arrested in these, in operation, hammer. It's tense. We then get to...

This is kind of the big one of all this. This is the big one. Yeah. This is, and it's so big because this has been happening a lot, but it is on film. Yeah. Which is a relatively new phenomenon. And I must say,

even for someone as impartial as myself, the film looks quite bad. Sure. Could have been like a Prince Andrews situation. We don't know the context of the footage. It also could have been early users of AI. I'd love to... Yeah, yeah, it could be.

I don't believe it. I've been doctored. We get to the Rodney King incident in 1991. Now, this is a huge... This is hugely important. LAPD officers are caught beating Rodney King while arresting him for drunk driving. And in the footage, you see...

It's like eight police officers. It's pretty nary stuff. Officers are just beating him to death. Well, he doesn't die, but they're just beating him with trunchers. And it's like there's eight of them around and they're beating him for so long. And for black members in L.A.

of the black community, they say this happens all the time. But it's kind of the first time it's been truly captured on film. Yeah. And it's like in the documentary, they play it for ages and you're just begging for someone to be like,

okay, he's had enough now. Not one person. Not one person says no. It's a big group of people. Not one person says maybe this is too much. No, they're like, I want to go. Yeah, they're actually very orderly queuing up. Do you know what?

There's not much you can compliment them for. But the level of queuing on display, you know. No, after you. It's sort of mock the week, actually. It is not the week. But instead of kick the week. But they don't turn around. Maybe if a female police officer got involved,

I'm not watching it. I'm not watching this. This is ridiculous. No. It's the same kind of opinion I have on the Bonnie Blue cue. You go, well, at least it's a good cue. Yeah. I don't really like what they're doing.

Yeah. But at least they're waiting their term. Yeah. Pretty damn gnarly. It's gnarly stuff for ages. It goes on for so long. Beating in with trunchons. You can't imagine what the context could possibly be.

No. Justify it. It's just like... Could we imagine it? You know, we're creative. We've got creative minds. Anyway, King suffers a broken leg. He's burnt from the stun gun.

I mean, it goes on for so long, the beating. And he's on the floor the whole time. He's completely compliant. And they just keep on beating it. Yeah. And all four officers are charged with excessive force. They go to trial, but they are found not guilty, and they face no punishment. And this is with, for this time, undeniable evidence of wrongdoing.

Yeah. So it's just pure corruption. It's pure corruption. Yeah. This bit, the next bit's fucked. I didn't know about this. And black people have not had any win with the justice system really ever in LA. No.

And this is just one of the most egregious of all of them. Two weeks later, a 15-year-old black girl is shot and killed by a Korean woman running a fucking 7-Eleven. So she's going to buy some orange juice. And then the Korean shop owner, Soon Jardu, thinks that she's going to steal it. And so she walks away and the Korean woman shoots from the back of the head? Yes. That's at least what she claims, right? Yes.

She says that she thought she'll stop shoplifting. But the video seems to be she's just paid and she's walking away. and then she's just out of nowhere shoots from the back of the head. It's also a little old Korean woman that looks like my nan. So it's like how on earth is your opinion of black people so low?

Yeah. So anyway, the Korean woman is convicted of voluntary manslaughter, which is a strange conviction to have. So that's not, voluntary manslaughter, isn't that literally murder? Because involuntary manslaughter is like I've accidentally,

I've sneezed while driving. No, no, voluntary manslaughter is not premeditated. it's in the moment. Okay. It's murdering, but you've had three, you've decided in the last five seconds. Voluntary manslaughter is an intentional

killing that's reduced from murder due to partial defences. Yes, it's like loss of control. Diminish responsibility or participating in a suicide pact. So sorry, it's her defense that, well, she was meant to kill me afterwards. It was like a Romeo and Juliet thing.

Yeah. So how on earth did she get off? Because the, it's literally, is it just that, do they think Korean is a mental impairment? What on earth is her defence? Anyway. She's got Korean syndrome.

She's got a full Korean syndrome. Now, this couple with Rodney King, sparks... Yeah, back to back. Huge, huge L.A. riots. Yeah, Super Sunday of rioting. The L.A. riots in May 1992. South Central L.A. erupts into rioting. And this is when in the documentary,

basically the police are so terrified from the lack of... From their, like, the optics... Yeah. That they just don't... Police it. Police it. And then you have people in black neighborhoods

going up to like white truckers, pulling them out of the truck and beating them to a pole. Yeah. It is a full on, essentially race riot. And then there's also a lot of tension between the Korean community

and the black community because of obviously she was Korean. Yeah. And then I think the Korean shopping centers become fortified like castles and they like have blockades. Sorry. Well, Charlie's just got up of,

just Googled Rush Hour 3. But this was the way that they came together. This was, Is this where they met? The relationship only really was fixed when the Rush Hour franchise came out. We should place this, actually. We should place this. This is crucially, this is before Rush Hour 1.

Rush hour 1, I believe, is 96 or 7. What a film. What a film. And like you say, 98. And it's after the fall of the Berlin Wall. It was after the Berlin Wall, but crucially, it was before the release of Rush Hour. We're living in a pre-Rush Hour world. They've got no idea of what a good...

We must say that Jackie Chan is... Jackie Chan is not Korean. But I tell you what, I've got no idea what he is. Sure. I don't see, race. Yeah. But I know he's not Korean. So yes, this is pre-Rush hour.

But eventually, in the documentary, they're like, there are all these police officers interview being like, it was so infuriating. We were being told not to go and, like, break it up. Yeah. And so it was just, there was looting. Yeah. burned down their own neighbourhood as well.

They just set fire to their own shops, their own buildings. Yeah. And then you had some police officers with pretty fruity views using them going, well, at least, I mean, why would you burn down your own petrol station? Yeah. Anyway, the National Guard called in at the end of the riot, 63 are dead, over 2,000 people injured,

12,000 arrests. A billion dollars of damage was caused. Significantly in Korea Town. And Darrell Gates, the amateur phrenologist chief of police Yeah. Resigns. Right. That acts as a lovely bit of context for when in 1994, on the morning of June the 13th, two bodies are found at Nicole Brown Simpson's house. So they then go to O.J.'s house and Rockingham, and they ring the bell, there's no response. And they find, looking around, they find that OJ's white Ford Bronco is stained with blood all on the wing mirror and stuff and the handle.

There's also a black glove matching the exact one. found at the scene of the crime by officer Mark Furman who will come into this. Now we'll get to Mark Furman. And so... More like Mark Fruitieman. Mark Furerman. I love the character of the story.

I really enjoyed. Enjoy his story. Anyway, so they find the other black glove that matches the one that they'd found covered in blood at Nicole's house. So this gives them probable cause. So they let themselves into the house. And OJ's a friend in kind of lodger,

Cato... He's never really explained Cato. No, I know. I can just goobble. what he looks like because he's sort of... He's called Cato Cailing, which is already weird for some reason. It's just the double Kee feels like a stage name.

He feels like a bit of an L.A. waiter to me? Yeah, he's got long blonde hair. He just feel... Is he just like, if you live in L.A., you're going to have a guy called Kato who lives in your outhouse? I just, I feel like L.A.

He looks like he lives in a rich person's outhouse. Yes. In every... He just seems up to no good, Kato. But in L.A., there are just these people with, like, men with women's hair who are just sort of fanning about. Yeah.

All the talking heads of the local residents that area. Living in LA. Yeah. You know, he's a poor boy, essentially. Yeah. He opens the door to the police, and he says that O.J. had left for Chicago the night before. When the Browns are told of Nicole's murder, they are like, well, that'll be OJ.

He beat the shit out of her for years. Yeah, when she screamed, he will kill me. He will kill me. I reckon it'll be a back. Yeah. OJ then comes back from Chicago. It's brought in for questioning. Police notice that he has cuts on his hand.

He claims that he accidentally broke a glass while he was in Chicago. Chicago. The LAPD didn't really question this. And he gets allowed to leave the interview. They don't do any kind of blood work on the things. And also when he is telling people about the cut, he tells everyone different reasons. Yeah. Like he cut it on getting into his car, he cut out on glass, you know, it's just always a different reason. Just scatter it. Yeah. So confusion, early doors. Yeah. He denies the opportunity to take a lie detector test, which is obviously what an innocent man would do. No, thank you.

I don't want to do that. Ethically, I think lies to test are wrong. I do think it's a bit unfair. It's like that's not... Prove me guilty. Don't cheat. Don't cheat. I don't even believe them.

Yeah. I don't believe them. Because also, it's entirely subjective how you would physiologically respond to lying. If you get off on it, then how... It's going to skew the results, isn't it? Yeah.

And also, I think a lot... It's your sphincter muscle that... They don't attach something to your ass to your ass. Well, see if it's quick run. It's your wrist. It's palpitations

or it's blood pressure, isn't it? What, how do you, how do they, breathing, sweating? Yeah. So as you fair,

he's turned it down, but that's kind of within his rights because, I think so. Yeah. I'm never going to do it. Fuck him.

No, don't believe in them. So the LAPD start to establish a timeline of the previous day's events. So this is June 12th. 5 o'clock.

OJ, Nicole and the Browns attend their daughter. daughters dance recital. The Browns go to a restaurant for dinner. OJ.'s not invited. You know, it's starting to stack up against Nicole. Yeah. 9.36pm. OJ. and Cato Kalin, the weird pool boy who looks a bit like Val Kilmer and yes. In heat returns from going to McDonald's. I actually took my kids to the McDonald's drive-thru for the first time this weekend. But what do you do after is more important, I guess. Sorry? What does he do after the McDonald's? I didn't kill my wife and the waiter. We all went home.

in Golden we watched Disney film. It was very wholesome. I did not kill my wife and some random guy from Gordon's. Yeah. This is where me and O.J. differ. It was the kid's first happy meal. It was a big moment.

Anyway. So 10 o'clock, Ron Goldman, Ron plays wrong time, Goldman. He brings some glasses to Nicole's house that Nicole had left at the restaurant. Yeah. 10.15.

Neighbors hear Nicole's dog barking loudly. 10.51. Kaelin hears a big banging at OJ's house. He thinks it's an earthquake. 1115, OJ's picked up by a limo and taken to the airport. 1145. He flies to Chicago for a Hertz golfing event. Right. There's a gap. There's a crucial gap in OJ's alibi. So please conclude that Nicole is attacked outside of her home, stabbed multiple times after a struggle. Ron Goldman is stabbed while in the chokehold

Now that's ironic because he's normal And he should be able to get out of those That's true Anyway he fights back Oh there you go There you go he fights back And stumbles away But then is followed by the attacker

He gets stamped several times His abdominal artery I mean the brutality Of the stabbing is extraordinary It is, it's gnarly Yeah They sever his abdominal artery He bleeds to death

They then think that the attacker Return to Nicole's body And basically Nearly chops her head off Yeah And they find a shoot on the back of her shirt, bloodied shoe print.

Yeah. As not as you can get, really. Charlie, did you like OJ Simpson before you heard about this? No. Okay, fine. So it's not a Pol Pot situation. Yeah, but that's because Charlie's

deeply, deeply racist. Oh, of course. He's on the side of the Koreans. That's a lovely, that's a lovely euphemism. What for being a racist? For being a racist against black people. He's on the side of the Koreans.

Anyway, due to her, what is it, Charlie? They don't got any neighbours? Hey? What the neighbours doing when this is up? Is this just in the garden? It's just in... Yeah.

In the side. But they're all detached houses. You've been to America, I've been to L.A. The space is pretty big. The thing about L.A. is it's so spread out. There's almost no, like, flat shares. No. It's basically just, and everyone's built their own house.

You might, the only thing you have is maybe a guy called Kato and your outhouse. Yeah. You have a poor boy who's a gay waiter. Are you fucking the shed? Probably. Yeah. Probably, yeah. Yeah.

So, but even driving through L.A., what's mad is that every house is a different style because everyone's built their own house. Yeah. It's just like the old West. So they just went out there and they were like, well, I quite like colonial. Spanish style, yeah. I like Spanish. I'm just going to build a fucking glass box.

Yeah. Anyway. It's a very hyper real place, basically. It is. Nicole is buried in a polo neck because her head had been nearly cut off. OJ goes to the wake. Nicole's mother calls him and says, did you kill her? And he goes, no.

I loved her too much. Apparently he had sunglasses on and was clearly very sedated. Yeah. Or like Zanis. And so just like pretty just numb during the whole thing. Yeah. Just kind of like just drifted through it all. So on the 17th of June, the LAPD charge OJ Simpson with the murders.

And they say to his legal team that he has to surrender himself by 11 a.m. Now by 11 a.m., he hasn't shown up. So the police go to his friend Bob, is it Bob Kardashian? Rob, Rob, Rob. Who I think is part of his legal team, maybe. that's where OJ was staying and his friend his legal team and his friend

at this point Robert Kardashian has given birth to a child with a prodigiously big bum okay the biggest bum they'll ever be

but this is before the internet so she hasn't broken the internet hasn't broken the internet has she broken her mother's she almost certainly broken her mother's poem I don't know how big Kim's ass is at this point

no it wasn't big when she came out I don't know. I don't understand ass implants. To me that it's like, gilding the lily. I don't want mine to be any bigger. No. No, I don't need any bigger. I don't think men should be getting BBLs.

I mean, it will be very funny. If we spent the patron money on getting... If we had two giant baties. And we had to get suits especially made. Because we'd had ass implants. Yeah, I don't know how sexy that would be, actually.

If we were in normal nor from the... I really know that you'd look good with the BBL. It would be great to go to like premieres and like Spotify lunches and just get photographed with our massive arses. Anyway. It won't take long to tell you neutral's ingredients. Vodka, soda,

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Listen, right now, wherever you get your podcasts, right now. American Friction! So the police go to Kardashian's house. OJ's not there. He's gone. Yeah. The juice is loose. Now, they declare him a wanted fugitive and they start a manhunt.

It's very funny. They interview the guy who was chairing the police press conference and all the press had been there from like 10 in the morning, expecting OJ to be there by 11. And then at like 2 o'clock, the guy's like, he's not here. They don't what to tell you. And then Kardashian, right, he reads a letter that reads a lot like a suicide note.

Yes. Which says, don't feel sorry for me. I've had a great life, great friends. Please think of the real OJ and not this lost person. And it's the assumption on the news that it's going to show up that he's killed himself. 6.20 p.m. A white bronco is spotted on the I-5 freeway by a motorist. Now, freeways in L.A. are fucked.

Why? Because in this country, your motorways have three lanes. A slow lane, medium lane, fast lane. The slow lane will always peel off into a slip road, but that lane will carry on. Okay. In L.A. particularly, they just keep adding lanes. And if you're coming off, that lane will just disappear. Okay.

So if you're in the slowest lane and you don't want to come off, you have literally 30 seconds to get out of that lane before you're taking away. But it's also never clear how many lanes are going to be. And there's crazy traffic in L.A., right? Yeah. Yeah. It's stupid. OJ. owned a White Ford Bronco, and so did his best friend Al Cowling,

whose girlfriend he had stolen their marriage. Yeah, so his old school friend. Old school friends. They had identical cars because Cowlings wanted to emulate OJ. Right. That is confusing. Which caused a lot of public confusion. Anyway, the police at 645 catch up with the car.

And Cowling has shouted, shouting that OJ is sitting in the backseat with a gun to his head. Right. So there's a mobile phone in the car, right? So he's speaking to the police at some point. Again, this is all something an innocent man would do. The LAPD back on. off and there starts, 20 cars start chasing the Bronco at a very leisurely speed of 35 miles an hour. It's a pretty extraordinary moment because the helicopter chase, helicopter newsman finds it

and then about 85 million people tune in to watch this chase happening. And it's a very LA story because in the talking heads when the pilot talks about it, that pilot is now trans and looks like Kate and Jenna. Yes, yeah. So it's just interesting this story. being in LA, just the type of characters. You have Cato Cahling, the gay poor boy, you have a trans helicopter news pilot.

There's a lot going on. It's fucking GTA. It's completely GTA. But it's also just your individual self-expression is never more celebrated than in LA. It's all about your own view of yourself. Your own freedom. I'm not black, I'm OJ.

To kill your wife in a way to it. Yeah. But this is probably the defining news event of maybe the decade. Certainly. what I was thinking out, this is a very 90s story and the 90s often considered the period of like the end of history, right?

Yeah. So this is between the fall of the Berlin Wall and before 9-11, it's kind of seen... 9-11 gets mentioned. But it's seen historically right as kind of like a period of like relative peace.

It's like the Edwardian period in that there's this... Not much happens geopolitically. There's a hubris to it because it's like hedonism. And... But no one knows where they're going because there's no like,

I don't know, counteroffer to what's... The world's all liberal capitalism, basically. But the Edwardian period is quite bittersweet to study because you're studying about these people and they don't know about World War I that's coming. And like the Titanic, which shatters the illusion of Edwardian progress. It just feels like it's all going to carry on. The 90s feels like this golden age of headness.

There's no idea of what the future's going to be. No. And it also feels like because the 90s doesn't have this huge geopolitical event, like the 2000s does, like the 80s does in the same way. There's not like, well, what wars in the 90? Yeah. Sort of, but it's not, I don't think that's like, there's not, America's not involved in it in the same way.

It is, but it doesn't matter. But it's not, it's not as irrefinding. It's not as erodefining. So I think it's interesting that the big actual news stories of the decade are actually celebrity. It's Diana and OJ, right? And look, if Diana had been driving as a sensible speed of 35 miles an hour,

this is a police chase where, which does not result in the celebrity's death. Right, so you're saying that potentially, yeah this is interesting hubris for the Diana story the paparazzi should have been like the police yes

coming off to Diana that's interesting so we're now watching footage of the chase which is kind of it's just eerie because they're all going like it's as if they're out driving past a school

they're just going so slowly what is it Charlie is there any sort of British equivalent to this with British people when it's like police interceptors yeah we have Ray Mears walking through fields and tracking Rao moat

and gas attorney you know, Raoul, Raoul's the British show. It's the British show today. Except he did just kill himself. There has never been a news event quite like this. No. It's extraordinary. Everyone turns on the TV.

And it's live. You don't know what's going to happen. I mean, it must be one of the most thrilling live news events ever. Live news events don't really happen in the same way anymore. Yeah, yeah. You know, helicopter news teams, trans pilots. It's crazy. And it is G.

Because we have things like, I don't know, October 7th, the invasion of you. You, like, we have very serious things. Do you know what I mean? But they're not as like entertainment-y as Ojet. Like, this doesn't have the same geopolitical ramifications. So it is more of an entertaining news event. If Stephen Frye climbed up Big Ben naked. Go on.

For justice. To be honest, he's bipolar and gay. So he has that in his locker. For water aid, but he just did that, he did that the whole time. For water aid. And he was wanking and he was giving the finger to the telly. Yeah. Would it?

Everyone's tuning in. How many of those do you need to hit an OJ level of kind of... I mean, that's pretty big. What fraction of an OJ is that? The problem is that OJ is... In terms of the chase. The first news stories have hit about his wife dying, and then he's a charge of the murders.

Everyone thinks he's killed himself. Yeah. And then someone's found him on the freeway. News helicopter manhunt. Yeah. Live on TV. The biggest sports star in the country. And it's in L.A.,

the home of kind of fucking media in the world really. It is basically if David Beckham had killed Posh Spice and then it's found, it's picked up on like a jet ski going down the fucking Thames or something.

85 million people tune in to watch it. Crazy. Anyway, so the chase continues and there's like, you can hear that they've got recordings of the phone course. Al Cowlings is like

guys just like, like chill out. So OJ's got a gun. He's got a gunter's head just freaking out, I imagine, in the back. Yeah, yeah. Well, he's innocent. Yeah. He doesn't know what to do.

So the LAPD set up snipers and SWAT teams at OJ's Rockingham House. And eventually it kind of, it basically sort of like a procession to his house. He said he's going to hand himself in. He just wants to go home. And it's so long, the sun is slowly setting. Yeah. As he's coming back in such a long time. And then because of like everyone's watching on TV.

Yeah. All these like, all these basically OJ fans pour into the streets and start cheering the car. I mean, from the beginning, they're on the fucking bridges over the freeways. Yeah, go ahead. With signs saying, go OJ. They're saying the juice is loose. Yeah. Saying run the juice.

So groups support an attempt to block police. The car eventually pulls into OJ's house. His son Jason punches cowlings through the driver's window. He gets pulled away by the police. Why do you think he does that? I don't know. I guess it's a very emotional time. Fair enough.

Cowlings, Ed's against the car. OJ stays inside with his chin resting on the gun. And then negotiators trying to get him out. Right, and this is a very good part of the documentary. Yeah. They're trying to get him out by like, think of your kids. Thing of your kids. Thing of your kids.

And he's like, boring. Are you trying to make me kill myself? Yeah. And then... This is part you relate to him. Yeah. This is why. I'm like, if I can say that.

He's got a loaded gun to his head. Don't remind him he's a father. He's going to blow his brains out. also they don't how long have a mother he's the sole parent of your wife bang hello

hello fuck Finn hello I forgot my trainer never remind a man with a gun that he's got kids that's day one of hostage negotiation school

thinking of your kids bang fuck sorry sorry I forgot But not only is he, not only has he got kids, he's got no wife anymore. Oh. So he's the sole parent. Don't talk about his family. Luckily, OJ doesn't pull the trigger.

But what they say in the documentary, they interview the guy who negotiated with him. And they were looking around Rocky in his house, they realized there are no photos of his family. It's a shrine to himself. It's like, it's literally his staircase is like the front window of an Italian restaurant. Yeah. It's the owners with loads of celebrities that have eaten and past. Walk up Downing Street, but it's all photos of one person. But it's like, oh, this is me with Trump.

This is me with like Babe Ruth or whatever. This is me with, anyway. So then the negotiator just starts talking about like, don't think your kids, think of OJ. Think of your fans. And basically pitched it as the story of OJ. Yeah. You know, think about the people who rely on you and inspired by you. What would the great OJ do?

Do you know great OJ is going to quit and basically implied that he was sort of a quitter? Yeah. the greatness of OJ would stand up, get out the car and show them who you really are. You've got the biggest dick ever, don't you? Yeah, yeah. So then, eventually, about 9 o'clock,

he exits the car, and after searching the car, please find a change of clothing, a loaded 0.357 magnum, a fake goatee and moustache, a passport on $8,000 in cash. Right. You got to have that, though, in your house.

It is a shame. You've got to have a grab bag. You do have to have a grab bag. It's just a shame we never got to see OJ and a fake. mustache trying to get through an airport. Yeah. Hello.

Hello. Helle, cabron. Yeah. I think, I'm a mo. I think you. If you're OJ, you've got to go blonde, long hair, like. Cato Cailin. Yeah, you've got to look like Cato.

I think the goatee really doesn't hide him. No. He needs to go bigger. But was it like a Fou Manchu mustache? Was it like a Chinese? That would be better. In my grab bag, there's a Fumanchu mustache. There's a full Chinese hat,

smoking pipe. I don't know what you're looking for. Yeah, but that's your grab bag. to go to the pub. I think he went that way. That's not, you're escaping. That's you'd leave in the house.

Phone, wallet, keys, Fuman tumor, stars, rasta hat, big fake dooby. No, it's my wife saying,

where are you? It needs to put the kids to bed. I think he went that way. I'm going to a pub. Bye-bye. I've got a Chinese passport. Yes. I have a grab bag

whenever my wife needs me to parent. I feel very sorry. I don't know where he went. Where is that thing? Where a Finn Taver go? I'm not Finn Taver. Anyway, I'm going to go pub. Bye!

Yeah, you're all going to have a grab bag. Anyway. So when he sees all the supporters, I guess Asian listeners would probably be listening to this thing again. Well, at least I'm safe for accents on this one. Listen. You never say.

The black population have caught a lot of heat in this episode. And so it's about time that for them, we throw it at the Koreans. Now, when he sees his support, reporters who are all outside the gates of Rockingham. He suddenly changes. He feels inspired and uplifted. But he says,

he says, what are all these N-words doing in Brentwood? Like a white racist golfer. Yeah. But this is probably the point where he essentially becomes black, like against his will almost.

He's always tried to say, he's been forced to be black. I'm raceless. And now, now he's in police custody, for the only way he can get out of this is to become black. and be a cipher

for all of black America's struggles having denied them throughout his career so OJ is in police custody I think we should stop this episode here in our next episode we will deal with the trial of the century and just before we throw to that

OJ has a plea hearing and he pleads not guilty because he is an innocent he's an innocent man would an innocent man have been sucking on a gun for three hours driving at 35 miles an hour

through LA? Yeah, would he be doing sort of kinky stuff with the back of a car? He's relaxed. I don't think so. He's enjoying himself. He's just him and his mate

going for a drive. What's the big deal? In our next episode, we'll be joined by Red Richardson to just broaden the diversity of the pod. We want to get the black perspective. So Red Richardson

from Devon will be here to discuss the OJ trial and Ojo's Life After the Trial. Those two episodes are already on the Patreon. We'll also be doing bonus episodes this fortnight on Caitlin Jenner.

And if you can't wait, Tron... Join the Patreon. That's a great slogan. You can't wait, Trian. Join the patron. And if you smell Trian, join the Patreon. So we'll also be doing Oscar Pistorius and Red will stick around for that.

It's a big fortnight. But if not, we'll see you next week for the continuation of this epic series. on the life and trials of OJ Simpson. Until then. Goodbye.