Fin vs History - Manic Pixie Dream Goebbels | Sigmund Freud & The Birth of Psychology (Part 2)

Episode Date: February 26, 2026

Where there are autism allegations, there are strange horny men. Are we all masking in the ADHD revolution?  The History of Psychology (Part Two) The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.   For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon  ⁠patreon.com/fintaylor  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to Finn versus history. I'm with the ratio Gould. And this is part two of our deep dive into the history of nutters. Yes. It's the history of psychology. We are, I'm delighted to say, in 1920s Austria, Germany. Happy place. My happy place. If you did therapy, pick a place you feel most comfortable and retreat there when you feel stressed.

Where do I feel better? I'd like to go back to the birth of psychotherapy. And I'd like to be Carl Jung having dinner with Sigma Freud and Adolf Hitler. you're unhappy because you didn't poor enough as a child Blunt! Stuck between a rock and a hard place. Carl Jung is a Swiss-German, the only people slightly more weird than Austrians. He is Freud's pupil,

but he's knocking about Austria and by 1913, their relationship between pupil and Master has broken down. Young resigns from Freud's Institute in distress. he's sort of isolated professionally. He doesn't want to be affiliated with Freud's ideas. Why not? Because not everything is about poo or sucking your mum's tits.

In Jung's mind. I'm going to break from you eventually with this podcast. I think I'm going to be. What will it be? What will it be? I don't know what it could possibly be. I don't think I'm Freud. There's going to be a moment where the stuff you said this podcast,

I mean like, I don't want to be affiliated with your network. I don't be affiliated with anything. It's when I go to the Sophie Hague. It's when I'm tried at the Sophie Hague. Who's going to have me then? Who will take me? Well, it depends. I mean, this is a different world.

That would be a big choice for you to make. Is it my choice? I think what we do is just like a divorced couple trying to work out with a dog where you both go, here, Charlie. Yeah, Charlie, Charlie, Charlie here. Charlie, here. And I just take shit myself and stays down. Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah, like a dog, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. From late 1930 onwards, Young is in episodes of psychological distress. Right. Intrusive visions. intense dreams, fears he's developing a psychosis. Okay.

Now, rather than seeks treatment and suppressing the experience, he explores them. Interesting. This is the true psychoanalyst. Right. They try to stand outside. I love this. I'm going mental. This is fucking brilliant.

I'm going mental. Let's just go outside myself and I see myself going mental. So it's sort of like doing an acid trip, but instead of taking any drugs, you're just going mental. Yeah. It's just being so stressed that you're basically like exploring. I guess that is a way of solving it, isn't it? If I'm stressed in my domestic life and I just stand outside of it. Just treat it like you're at Glastonbury on fucking mushrooms.

I'm just watching a really boring play of some kids not getting their shoes on. And I'm just, er. Explore it. Because that's a therapy technique, isn't it? Supposedly, I don't do it because I'm straight. Right. But I supposedly, supposedly you're meant to notice the stress and like acknowledge it. But you're meant to like, oh, this, this.

This will pass. Was it sort of like saying I am... It won't pass unless they get their fucking shoes on and get out of the house. We're going to be late. So like I am an alcoholic in the 12-step program. This drink will pass my lips and I will feel better. I'm watching myself drinking a pint.

I know I'm going to have 12 more and ruin Christmas, but that's fine. Is that what they mean? I think so. You say you haven't done therapy. Radical acceptance. Isn't radical acceptance a thing now? Yes. A radical honesty.

Radical acceptance where you're just like, yeah, Fuck it. Fuck it. Fuck it. I guess I'm, I guess I'm an alcoholic. Fuck it. But when you're in the 12-step program

with the whole point is the first step is admitting. So is it like that when you're stressed? I am fucking stressed. I am stressed. Why am I stress? Because you're all being cunts. It's your fault.

First step is admitting, Finn. Yes, it is. The second step is blaming. The third step is getting angrier. The fourth step is going, right, and putting their shoes on. And the fifth step is slamming the door

and getting out of the house. And leaving them with a sense of fear. Um, more, uh, tips for me for parenting are available at my website. I've got some free PDFs. I mean, so, uh, for a Freudian, you know the, uh, free climber who's just climbed that Taiwanese skyscraper? Yes. What's his name? Alex, Alex Salmon. Alex Salmon. Alex Salmon. Alex? The people who are involved in the... Alex Trevelyan was double six and gold. Sorry. That was a fraudulent. That was an unconscious, that was an unconscious slip. Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold. Well, yeah, he's the one who did three

solo and it was just free climbed this skyscraper in Taiwan. Yeah. But basically when, when watching free solo, he said that he basically wasn't hugged as a kid to do, like, in those early stages. Now he was trying to hug the mountain. Yeah, I guess so. But it is interesting that, like, it's interesting that if you don't give your kid enough affection, they will free climb a rock face later in life.

Which is, he got paid half a mill for that. Yeah. So part of me is like, you can maybe raise them, be like, if you don't touch them, It's like sushi chefs trying to resisting the urge to cook it. Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Leave it, leave it. Put some soy sauce on it and go to bed.

It might end up being like, you know, a world-class athlete. So, Jung, who is probably, I might prefer, of all these whack-job doctors. Yeah, Jung's, young is based. Jordan Peterson loves Young. He's always knocking on about Young. He is. So Young's breakdown is kind of recorded as the basis of his book. Libernovus, the Red Book.

Quotes include, the more manly you are, the more remote from you is what woman really is. Well, that's not a great quote. That seems... Since the feminine yourself is alien and contemptuous.

You see, I love this guy. He's speaking my language. The exceptions of femininity leads to completion. What kind of completion is he talking about? Is that a way of saying he's coming? Oh, fuck, I'm going to complete it. Then the same is valid for the woman

who accepts her masculinity. So was he saying that we should all be gender-fluid? I guess so? Gender-bender-bender, yeah. What is it, Charlie? Is it gay to go out with the masculine woman? I think so. Is there any level of...

Is there any level of camp where it's gayer to go out with, like, a really butch lady than the gay man? Interesting. No, I don't know. The manliest woman ever. How butch does this woman have to be? On a scale from, like, Nort to Claire Boulding.

What? She's Clare Boulding. We're going butch thing, Claire Boulding. She works the train. Impossible. Impossible. She looks like Claire boarding, but she works on the train.

I think she more looks like Vinny Jones, but is a woman. Christ, I can't imagine that. Short hair? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

I see your point, though. Vinny Jones looks like a powerful lesbian. Is it all physical? Say that to his face. See what happens. So, Jung, let's get to,

so Young develops these concepts after World War I during his kind of retreat from, does he serve him? World War I think maybe he does. Oh, he's Swiss, isn't he? So of course he didn't. Yeah.

Fucking sweet. Oh, he's just there as a fucking referee. Taking a Swiss Army knife out and then in, getting the scissors out of his Swiss Army knife. Brilliant. What fucking coward. Jungian concepts. So where's Freud? To compare us to Freud,

Freud thinks that everyone has some kind of childhood trauma because they didn't suck enough of their mom's tits or they didn't pooing themselves enough or they poo in toilets too much. And they all want to fuck everyone. And that's why everyone's messed up. Okay. Jung goes or he starts talking about these concepts of archetypes,

where there is a type of personality that is recognisable to all of us and that we sort of play a role as we try to fit into this type or certain types can affect other types and how we grow out of them. And archetypes have gone throughout history, through different societies all over the world, they reappear in many different forms. And he talks about a collective unconscious, which is like a tribe or even a nation,

which would have a sort of be plugged into a collective hive mind that it wouldn't necessarily know what it's doing, but it's going somewhere. And this leads... Stop the boats. Sort of. Yeah, our collective unconscious now is stop the boats. Although it's quite conscious for a lot of people.

Screaming out of a car window. But this is the most interesting thing Jung does is he meets Hitler and Mozart. Mussolini in the early 30s and he psychoanalyzes them. And he says that they are both... Do they know they're being psychoanalyzed? Or did you just chat into them? They just chanted to them.

Right. But he's sneaky this cup. Yeah. So he says that these two leaders are different archetypes and that's why they're successful leaders. There's the archetype of the strong man. That Mussolini? Mussolini.

Musilini, bare chested in the fields, eating raw garlic. Hey! Yeah. Right? And this is like a, like going back to when we were, monkeys or whatever and we just went to the strongest guy. Alpha male. He's the alpha.

He's a very easy person. He's the strongest. He's the most dangerous man. He'll lead us. He's our leader. Hitler is not that. Hitler. He's physically quite weak, Hitler.

Hitler's a shaman. That's what Young says. A Nazi shaman? Hitler's a Nazi shaman. Hitler is a witch doctor who is cooking up a tea that the Germans are fucking drinking. And they're seeing shit.

Yeah. Right? Hitler is a Hitler, the archaise basically Raised as ayahuasca. Yeah,

it's, it is taking ayasca and then denying the Holocaust. That's what Young says, Hitler is an archetype.

No, it's taking ayahuasca and doing the holoca Yeah, I guess so. I guess it is that. It's the first thing. So he says

that Hitler is a magician, a wizard, the archetype of the shaman, right? Wizard Hitler. So this is someone who is not the strong man

and he's also not a virile man. No. You know, he's not someone who ever really had a sexual relationship. Now, as we've seen... Micro penis. Maybe. We can't know.

But they think Hitler is kind of communing with the collective unconscious of Germany, right? Yeah. And that Hitler is sort of... It's basically interpreting it's... Right. It's a drum circle, but it's Hitler. And it's German. Highly fleeing,

he and a trolling pin. Humber, umba, umba, umba. Hittler's playing a didgerid, and all the Germans are set cross-led. The Germans are all sat cross-legged. Drinking tea. And Hitler's... Anyway, so he says that Hitler is the archetype of the mystic or the priest who captures the imagination of the collective unconscious

and tells them about the stars and where they're going. Right? It's not the... Spiritual leader. sort of and basically what he says now this this gets pretty fucking crazy right and I'll just say that now that I'm here for all

of this normally it's the opportunity for people to distance himself that's what most people do I just like to we're talking about it but this is with big context I want to say I do not agree with any of this but you're like I just want to say before we go into this I agree with everything that's been safe I'd like to move myself closer to events

I'd like to move myself closer to the opinions I'm about to describe I would not like to any distance at all between them That's the caveat. That's the caveat there. Just so that when I'm saying this, I also wanted to be true. Just the caveat, there's no caveats. Yeah, yeah.

Never had anything been caveated less. 100%. 100%. Would you say, hit yours, your hero? Huh? Would you say hit those your... 100%. Yeah.

Right. Jung says, so he writes two essays. He writes an essay in 1936 called Woden. Yeah. And he writes one in 1946 called After the Catastrophe. In the 1936 essay, he says, and I'm going to, I'm going to info dump on you here, right? There's a lot. He says that he predicts a great apocalypse coming because the German people have been possessed by the Norse god Woden.

Or rather the Wodend. Woden. Woden. Wodin. And he is the god of frenzy and the god of apocalypse and the god of chaos. He's the god of fucking shit up. Yes. Now he says that the archetype of this god, right, went from one person to another.

And the German unconscious, the great collective unconscious, they don't really know where they're going or what they're doing or why they're doing it, but they are all acting as one like a field of cows. Yeah, a certain type of cow. Yeah. My type of cow. Mood. I think cows normally, blood. Blood. Blude.

Bloot. Blot. Blefell. Anyway. There's a Hitler cow. I don't know why I'm laughing so all of that. That's the stupidest thing. I was over there.

Blood. Oh, Christ. Right. Anyway. Right. He says the German people's are, the unconscious is going in this direction of chaos, right? And he says that the archetype, as he writes it there, is Hitler, right? He's the manic priest, the shaman.

Manipixie dream girl. He's a manic-duty dream Nazi. He's leading the collective unconscious. That's one of the archetypes. Yes. I believe that Hitler is the manic-a-pixie dream Nazi archetypes. Yeah, the archetype is the shaman or the leader or the fucking blue-haired anime-loving girl. And Hitler is that.

Hitler's a blue-haired manic pixie dream girl with space boots who's doing slam poetry about sci-fi at the Edinburgh Fringe Anyway He calls Hitler a psychic scarecrack So when is you writing this, what year? I don't know which essay

This is no 1936 this is right? Okay, so this is a... Pre-antulas. Right. So he's really... Because Ancelus wasn't even, as we've said, Anseless is fine. So he's, you know, he is prophetic.

It's before Hitler's been very naughty. Very, very naughty. No. They don't yet know that Nazi is the German word for naughty. They don't know this yet. It's 936. So Jung says that Hitler is this mystical shaman and he is the avatar for Woden

who is leading the German unconscious to an apocalypse, right? Now this is where it gets fucked and I'm just going to say that I'm here for all of this. He says that before this, the German people are always aware of Woden unconsciously, but before this, the avatar for Woden was Nietzsche, right? Yes, of course.

Now, Nietzsche starts to go insane in January 1889. When he sees a horse die. He sees a horse die and he goes insane. And then his sister sells tickets. Yeah, yeah. So, Jung says that when Nietzsche goes all like that. Literally, no one's gone more cartoon insane than Nietzsche. He's just like this one day and then he went.

Yeah, nothing means anything. Yeah, so when Nietzsche goes insane, January 1889, 89, right? Yeah, we're looking at photos of him now. he's clapped. So Jung says that when Nietzsche goes mad, that's the spirit of Woden leaving his body. Right. He then says that on this particular day,

the same day he was diagnosed as going ill, is a day when Hitler would have been 24 weeks in the womb, and so his synapses would have been forming, and the spirit of Woden goes into Hitler in the womb, and that the spirit transfers from Nietzsche to Hitler. Wow. And that is the collective unconscious of the German nation. going towards Ragnarok,

which he then says in his 1946 essay was Stalingrad, the biggest battle ever. Yeah. He says, so his 1946 essay is going, that thing I wrote 10 years ago, well, I guess I was completely right.

Yeah, I guess that is a Ragnarok. But then, so just the spirit of Woden go anywhere when Hitler kills himself? Well. Could it still be in the room with us right now, the spirit of Woden? Well, I was born as Germany was reunified. Charlie, type in,

German people who are born in 1945, what, April, 1945, when did it to die? Minute silence, please. So I know you get emotional. Famous Germans. We've got to find, we've got to find wherever the Spirit of Woden is now. This is like a National Treasure film. Yeah.

We got to find the Spirit. Shit, Michael Kogel. Who's that? German musician, Spanish pop rock band, Los Bravos. His spirit don't rodem. Yeah. I guess it's hard because there's no birth records for the period where Berlin was fucking rounded. Can we see a picture of Michael Cogel, please? Yeah. See what he decided to do with the spirit of Woden?

Yeah. What's he done? Has he formed a Spanish band? Because I don't think that's quite what Carl Young meant. We've got that hat. I mean, that's sort of a spirit. But also, fuck, I haven't even said the best bit. Charlie, there's a painting that is done about Woden in 1889 and you look at who it looks like. This is as Hitler is in the womb. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they looks like. Look, look. It looks like Hitler. That's Woden a drawing in 1889

as Nietzsche dies and Hitler's in the womb. But is Woden meant to be evil is he just chaos? Terry Woden. It's not Terry Wogan. What's Wogan a show called?

Who's called Wogan? Oh, is there not like a radio version of it? Not Terry Woden. Yeah, he did the BBC too show. What would Nazi Terry Wogan sound like? I don't even know what Nazi Terry Wogan would sound like.

We need to exterminate the Jews. There's no way of a six million. You're listening to Pickle the Pops. It would change Eurovision. It would change Eurovision. Always voting for Germany. It's just leaping's round. And Israel get zero points.

So, Jung is the only person who ever psychoanalyzes Hitler. And these essays, I would encourage you, there's an Irish guy on YouTube who writes video essays about psychology. And I found it. And his one about Young and Hitler is amazing. But where's the Norse God Woden coming? Isn't it a pseudo history to link the Germanic mythology to the Norse mythology? No, no, no. Because they're just scrambling for some white mythology.

The thing about Jung is he believes in the collective unconscious, which is where you leave the door open for religion. Which is why Peterson likes him. No, I get that, but I don't know why it doesn't feel like the German peoples were that influenced by North North mythology. They don't know that. Young is trying to articulate what's happened. Could there be a Garnayan Woden? Yes. Even though it's nothing to...

Really? Yeah. So you can collectively... Okay. Oh, do you mean Woden? Because Wodon's an archetype of a shaman. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hitler's a shaman.

Woden is the name of the... In this period, the German unconscious. They're being influenced by the god Woden. That's who is the god of chaos. It's a way... It's a fruity way of saying... I know. I know it's a way of framing it, but it's interesting...

It's bullocks. Well, obviously. Obviously it's bologues, but... No, but it's a way of framing things and there's a... I can understand archetypes. The great thing about psychology... But I don't know some way bringing Norse mythology into German...

The German unconscious, because I don't think... But he's trying... What he's saying... What he's saying is... Well, no, because the Nazis were all about Norse mythology. I guess so, but that was a pseudo... Yeah, but... What he's saying...

They were forcing that in. But also, Woden is a Germanic version of a Norse God. Okay, so... Okay. But what he's saying, what he's trying to say is the Germans were always going to do this because it's like he's being he's being stereotypical and essentialist he's saying

germany it was destiny germans destiny was the holocaust because that's their unconscious collective action that's their field of cows going blood right that's the german story and that hitler was like the final profit the final statement it was meant to be all right it was just meant to be people staring at the camps going well this was just inevitable it's meant to be meant to be It was meant to be. The Nazis, what's so fascinating is that all this stuff, the birth of this whole science, is in Germany at the same time as the Nazis are in power. So that's why a lot of the stuff later on has been quite contested,

because obviously a lot of the doctors are tainted by association. Now, a young story with the Nazis is that he gets, he accepts a presidency position, which is connected to the International General Medical Society for Psychics. psychotherapy after the Nazis come to power and this is that's ran by gerbils and the Nazis take bits of young psychoanalysis and they use his ideas about archetypes they use that with like the Jewish archetype the Aryan archetype and then Jung's like and they're like no no we get it. We should go through some of Jung's archetypes because that's his big thing. So Jungian archetypes this can be as simple as like the overbearing mother. This can be um

you know, specky guy. I don't know specky guys are. I think specky guy with like a sort of slightly below average cock is like a British archetype.

That's a British archetype. I don't know if that... Can we get, can you just Google you only in archetypes, Charlie? That's part of the collective unconscious. I think it's just a sense of like

you meet you, you know, I would meet, or one, I would meet you say and I go, okay. The royal you. The royal you.

And I go, you are an archetypeck or specky British ram of this is slightly below just hypothetically. I don't know who this person. I can't even imagine what this person was. You wouldn't recognize it because you're the archetype.

Who's the archetype? You may be. Oh, right, right, okay. But we can't know. We can't know. So the persona is the public face or mask worn to manage social interactions. The shadow is the hidden repressed instinctive aspect. So this is kind of ego in here.

There's kind of the same language, right? The animus is the internalized opposite gendered aspect of the self. And then the self is the ultimate goal of unifying all these different things. Yeah. Right. But it's a similar way of saying. German way then Freud

which is a little bit kind of sciencey and weird but the shadow self so other prominent archetypes the hero a figure representing courage ambition

the wise old man representing wisdom the mother symbolized nurturing the innocent the ruler the every man so it's in like

these are all like comic archetypes as well I guess can we find examples of these archetypes please Charlie just clicked on the hero and it took us to a pub

called the hero DeVail. So that pub is the archetypal pub. So example, the sage The hero is Harry Potter and the sage is Yoda. Yeah, yeah. So these are all right. These are literary archetypes. Well, no, but these are just stories. And everything's a story,

isn't it? It's how humans make sense of the world. So Sage Gandalf. The hero would be Hercules, Harry Potter or Hitler. The sage would be Yoda, Gandalf or Hitler. The innocent, Forrest Gump, Dorothy, from Wizard of Oz, Hitler. Harvey Prize. Yeah, exactly. You're getting it now.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Everyone is an archetype. Now, can you do real, real life people? Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa is the mother. Yeah. The trickster.

The jester. Well, no, here you go. Look, this one's good. So the innocent of the dreamer would be like a unwavering romantic and idealist, like Forrest Gump. Right. Was he an idealist? Well, it just sounds like everyone's got Down syndrome.

Well, they're the innocent. Yeah. The innocent archetype. Yeah. Right. Which is funny because Charlie doesn't have, Charlie doesn't have Down syndrome, but archetypelly. is the same as someone who does.

So it's like when I look at you and I interact with you, I know you don't have Down syndrome, but my unconscious self treats you as if you do. Or rather it treats you as no different from someone who does. Because that's how my psychology interacts with yours. I recognize the Jungian archetype. I mean, he's losing to five-year-olds at chess in two moves. Fools, mate.

Fools, mate. Yeah. Then there's the rebel or the maverick, someone like Colin Kaepernick. Right, yeah. Or like activists. The lover would be kind of, I guess, I don't know. Charlie X-E-X and Timothy Shalham.

No, Bonnie Blue, I don't know. Kylie Jenner and Charlie X-E-X. The jester, that's like comics, the sage, would be philosophers. The magician, Hitler. I imagine that kid's birthday. You've got this great guy. My next trick.

I will make six million disappear Right, so let's get back to the story So after World War II And you know, Jung writes this essay Basically being like I was right Gives me no pleasure to say And psychotherapy starts To trying to understand

What the fuck What the fuck just happened there? But what I like about Jung is I don't If you don't take it literally Literally It is sort of just like a dramatic framing of things It's just a way of viewing. Yeah, it's very epic way of viewing things.

It's better than it's all poo and sex, which is... Because I actually think because of it lacks the science, it's not claiming to be officially true. It's more just a way of understanding things or analysing things. But Young is also leaving the door open for religion and saying that people need religion and he's saying that this is how you could explain the psychological desire for a religious framework.

But I mean, the links, there's so many different... One of the big arguments against religion is how many different religions there are. And why, if you're saying you believe in one God, you're saying you don't believe in all the other. Why is that one God real and those are the time? And if you're born in a Muslim country. But then he's saying that. He's saying his way of actually, he actually manages to justify that because nearly all religions have similar archetypes and stories.

Exactly. And it's actually humanity responding to the same questions. You know, what's it called? There's a book called Save the Cat, which is like, if you want to write a film, script, you read this book and it tells you how you do it. Jung has done Save the Cat but for religion Yes

If you want to make religion You want to make religion You have a old fucker You have his son Trickster You have a prostitute Yeah Whatever

What is it Charlie Do you think there's any room For In terms of these Like iconic Freud And Young and everyone Do you think now with science Will there be another one

Who does Science Who stands in Alone as like A kind of like Major brain Theory person Well I suppose nowadays

You've got people Like Huberman But it's become so much more medicalised in that like people who are talking about neuroscience. Well now the movement now is the gut's the second brain. We've moved so far that it's like...

It's gone backwards. Yeah, it has gone backwards because it feels like we're getting somewhere. We're just back to like the humours. Now it's like apparently now a lot of your feelings and emotions is because you don't haven't drank kaffir and you like you haven't brilliant. Had enough ferment. Yeah, well fuck, fuck better help. Let's get yak-old.

Yeah, well kind of. Yeah, basically. The best therapy is fucking activity. It's yogurt. We're not on the yoghurt therapy stage. You see your therapist today? No, I just had a fucking yogurt. I feel fine now. Let's get to more psychotherapists that were tainted by the Nazi.

Young was never a card carrying Nazi, but he had to fight, he had to fight, like, his reputation his whole life. But I would recommend reading the essays. They're amazing. So Hans Asperger's, which is a bit like being called Harry Autism. Oh, yeah.

Derek Ritard. Daniel AIDS. Yeah, yeah. But again, the condition is named after him. Yeah. So if he was called that now, then that's quite funny. But again, this is pre-Asperger's. Trevor Downs.

Called like Trevor Downs. Does he have any children who are alive today? Someone find that out, please. Does Hans Asperger's have any children that are alive today? So he starts to study for, he's born in Vienna again. Vienna is just fucking ground zero for autism, isn't it? Yeah. Austria.

Yeah. You're born in 1906 and he specialises in developmental disorders in children. And in the 30s to 40s, he carries out these clinical work with children who show an unusual pattern of social behavioural traits. These include being socially isolated, poor at nonverbal communication, subscribing to a racist podcast Patreon. What's being poor at nonverbal communication? It's not understanding cues. It's Greg Wallace. Right, yeah.

Would you like a tea, Greg? Why is your cock out? And maybe not understanding a mime as an art form. It's quite funny to imagine an autistic person looking at a mime. But then I, that's why I think I'm, I can be autistic. When I watch a mime, I'm like, what the fuck is this? Fuck off. Get a job.

Does that mean I'm autistic or can I just hate, can I just hate mime? Could be. Don't know. But I get what they're trying to do. It's not that I don't get it. I just think it's shit. You can't read this. You don't want the emotional intelligence to read it.

No, I understand it. a rope. It's not like when I push the button and go down the elevator, I'm like, what? Where are they gone? Where are they gone? Fuck! I'm not that. I'm not a two-year-old.

I'm not a two-year-old. Walking down the stairs behind the kitchen counter. Fuck. Ah! What? There are stairs there? So he's got autism. Drick and Fritzel ever did that.

What? Just. Just pretended to go down the stairs. He's like, oh no. He has actually got a basin down there. Oh, right. There we go. anyway maybe fritzels the spirit of woden

when was fritzel born quick I've cracked another theory wide open when is fritzel born the spirit of woden lives you'd arguably have to say that's when hitler starts to lose the spirit of woden but also what you could because what they what the theory what young's theory is is that

um uh uh young's theory is that Hitler is in the womb and as Nietzsche goes crazy Hitler's synapses form so if there was a moment

when Hitler blows his brains out and then is there a moment Fritzel's 10 where he's like Yeah Blotin. It finds a new avatar finds a new host Fritzel could have been a very well-behaved

10 year old and then Hitler blew his brains out and suddenly he's possessed by the spirit of Woden He does look like he's possessed by the spirit of Woden He looks crazy He looks like a guy who did what he did

Yeah. He kind of looks like you, it's not impossible that you will end up looking a bit like that. He looks more like a ratio than me. I think it looks like a blend. I think you put, you face up us together.

Yeah, and then put the old filter on and you get fritzel, which would make sense. Anyway, right. So a hounds asperger. No, that's us two, sorry,

I'm the one behind. This is when I've turned you in. Right, you turn me in. And I've got a sort of smug, right look going, I knew this was a thing. He's actually wearing your suit. He is wearing my suit.

I don't look like him wearing the same suit. Same suit. Exact tie, exact shirt. We're looking at a photo of Fritzel wearing what I'm wearing now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you think that is a smug? Do you think he is smug there? Yeah, I did it. Yeah, I did it. And I do it again. And I added value to that house because I built a fucking basement. Yeah.

So when he dies, we need to worry about where the spirit of Woden goes next. Well, all I say Woden is that I'm right here. And I'm ready to lead the German people in their unconscious. What archetype was Fritzel then? The trickster?

The lover. The DIY god. The handyman. He's the handyman. He's a mix of the handyman that's possessed by the shaman of Hitler. The innocent. Yeah. Right.

So, Asperger's, Harry Asperger's, John Down syndrome, whatever you want to call him. He is studying kids. and four particular children whose behaviour follows this recognisable pattern. Difficulty forming natural social relationship with peers. Trigger warnings for our listeners. This will seem very relevant. Limited understanding of social cues.

Limited. Limited. Conversational style that could be one-sided. No, no. This is the backbone of this podcast. This is the backbone of this podcast. We've just monetised our ass burdens. We've locked as people who are so hyper-fixated on certain interests. Yeah.

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Every weekday. With me, Andrew Harrison, Ross Taylor, Jacob Jarvis, Gavin Esler, Zinging, and me, Seth Treble. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. So Asperger believes that many of these children could grow into functional adults through nurture. So you're getting a nurturing sense here, which before, I think, think it's all about you're sort of there's almost a sort of with Freud and young there's like there's no mobility in the archetypes but then I think we've gone back to a sort of uh defeatist like destined view of autism pre-destit i don't agree with a lot of the time yeah where it's like i've got this is how i'm always going to be 15 minutes late that's just yeah but that's because it's

it's now become a personality trait yeah rather than a so i think obviously there's developmental differences as children. Doesn't mean you can't overcome them. No, and when people are like, oh, I'm masking. Yeah, so is everyone. Yeah, that's the whole, the whole point of being,

being alive in society is you don't just poo your pants, Charlie. Yeah, it's, the masky thing does a kind of annoying. It's like, yeah, we're all masking. Why are you exempt from masks? I don't want to be here. I'm exhausted for a masking all day.

Yeah, so am I. I'm going to work. I don't want to work. I want to lie on my own shit wanking, but I've got to get out. I just want to be eating KFC on the toilet. What do you mean? we're all masking.

I completely agree. You know, anyway. If you could have your time again, would you, would you, um... 35. 35. If you could have your time again, would you... Would you go back to, um...

Like, if you could have your brain in your, like, a five-year-old body, I think I'd be so, so, I'd be doing so well now. What's the question though, Charlie? I would be doing so well now. Like, if I was five and I had my brain, I'd make sure that everyone liked me immediately. because I'd have all my skills. And, like, you would go... I still think you'd be losing at church.

Like, this is the problem. You'd go back to when you were five saying, this is brilliant. I'm going to be top of my class. I'm going to be able to, like, you know, be a CEO by the age of 20, and you'd be bottom of your class still. You'd lose in three moves.

You'd be a lot of people having meetings saying, is he developmentally challenged? Right. So Harry Asperger's, whatever he's called, he calls the kids little professor, Brian Diarria. Brian.

You know, some people have names and you're like, well, you can only do one thing like. Where did diarrhea come around? What's that? Is that named after? Is that the first guy on a loose shit? It's called Brian Diarrhea. I mean, I guess Diary makes sense

as a, like, sonically. What's the Indian word for diarrhea? Because that's surely where it comes from. You know, Eskimos are 100 words for snow. In Hindi, there's Archervesterwana. Oh, it's a Greek thing. Of course. It's great.

You can't call Asperger Syndrome that anymore. It's now... Because the Nazi stuff. Yeah, because, and I looked into it, he is pretty guilty. Right. He, so the Nazis had a thing called... They had a camp called T4 or T444. No, T4444 was the Paralympic thing.

Anyway, they had a camp called T4 where they... Catch up on E4. T4 on the beach. Not T4 on the beach. I think it's the opposite of that. It's where they killed disabled children. So it's not T4 on the beach. It's T4 off the beach.

T4. It's landlocked T4. If you're in any mind, don't get those confused. It's not a music festival on the beach. It's a concentration camp where they sent. It's very important. You make the right decision. There's a fork in the road in your life. All right.

One goes to T4 in the beach. They could be more different. Yeah. One is Makita Oliver slamming Pina Kalada. what the killers are playing and the other one is Harvey Price being gassed The killers will mean something very different

It's very important you choose the right fork So all the debate is where Asperger's was aware how aware he was He was sending children to their death At a Nazi euthanasia clinic Because obviously the Nazi regime They're taking Darwin's ideas They're taking Young's ideas

About archetypes Dr Asperger's he He ingratiate himself By referring children To a euthanasia clinic I mean what a referral Yeah I mean if you're a doctor

Just to refer You know when you get a referral Yeah I've got I'm picking up a prescription It's for a bullet in the head Right yeah I'm gonna refer you to My friends at this practice

Yeah Asperger's is not a member The Nazi Party And he also does To be fair I think he also Save some children Yeah but let's do a numbers game

Yeah exactly The point is exactly He's not a great Pediatrician Right Pedal Pedal Pediatrist, right?

He's not, no, no. But he's, you know, it's, um, but he has... He's the number one thing you're trying to do is save kids, right? And he's sort of doing the opposite. He's going, these kids with autism could leave a full life. Where shall I send them the Nazi death camp? The bin. The bin.

Drag to bin, empty trash. I've nurtured these kids into the bin. He saved the smart ones. Okay, so if you were particularly, um, you know, I guess maybe... That's the autism dilemma though. Well, it is. Maybe were the ones that were really into trains. They were like, I reckon we could put you to you to you.

currently we've got quite a sophisticated network. So we then get to the Nuremberg trials where psychology is this nascent sort of 30 year old thing but it's very important because everyone is trying to... World War II is where psychology completely changes. Yeah. Because the naughty science is over. You've now got to start to hedge yourself.

Sadly, this is the bookend of the funnest period in science. Yeah, it's the hangover. It's unfortunately, they now have to unpick all the mad shit they did. and, you know, there's a lot of respectable esteemed racers taking their coats off going, well, I guess I'm not a scientist anymore. If this is what science is, I want no part of it. I want to measure heads, right? I don't want to put Mentos in Coke bottles.

I think that's gay. I want to measure Irish people's noses and then make stereotypical judgments about their intelligence. If that's a crime, then lock you up. Then I guess I'm not a scientist, fine, all right? You change, not me. It's like with Trigonobtranexia say

I didn't change I'm not come right wing The left change Yeah Science changed All right I'm still racist But science isn't

Anyway So the Nuremberg trial This is obviously in the film Nuremberg I haven't watched it yet But I've seen clips of it Yeah So they get an American psychiatrist

To assess the prisoners Or Russell Crow Russell Crow And they're trying to Work out What's just happened why have how have Germany done this

Carl Jung says they've been possessed by a Norse god and that Hitler's a shaman that seems slightly out of outlandish and they're trying to understand the Nazi mind

and what they do IQ tests most defendants score above average they're sort of highly intelligent Yeah And this is where the banality of evil comes in as well during this

Well this is what I mean Well yeah the banality of evil Is that these guys are smart but they tell fucking boring stories. Yeah, so banal. Like, you did so much mad shit and you can't, you can't spin a yarn.

Yeah, come on. Yeah, like, obviously I don't care about that part. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get to the good bit. Fucking, no, then there's not, build attention. More paperwork. So, um, but then they start using, uh, the raw shush, raw shash, raw shash, raw shash, raw shash.

Raw shash. Raw shash. How do I say that? Raw shashash. Raw shash. Raw shash. Raw shash. Um, I just like, the raw shash.

I'd say the raw shash test. A box of raw shash. or quality shak Rorschak. It's Rorschach. Roshish or Hirosh. The test.

Roshesh. Right. The Roshash. The Roshesh. Passed a Roshesh. It's the test. If you get the best ones, that's quite rude.

If you get the strawberry one, you get. Given the Roshoshish test. If you eat the pink one, you're gay. Winners go home and fuck the prom, queen. Anyway,

so Herman Rorschash is Swiss. Again, he's Swiss. He died young. He was nicknamed Klex, which is German for inkblot. That's mad. So he enjoys this game where you drip ink on a paper, then fold it. And his central question during his time as a doctor is, how does the mind impose structure on ambiguity?

Right. So he dies at age 37 at appendicitis, but he leaves this legacy of this test, which in the mid-Drenate century was being you to diagnose homosexuality, criminality, psychopathy in political extremism. Who's fucking around with inks, but at a time where this stuff's

really burgeoning, so... Yeah, well, the 50s, and this is where I would again like to recommend the novel, right place, right time. You're just flicking ink. Yeah, the novel, the Dice Man, which is the funniest book of all time. Right.

It's a satire of the nascent psychological scene in 60s America. Charlie's already laughing. I keep meaning to give you a copy because you will love it. It's a guy who essentially, he's a psychologist, then he rejects all his training and he goes, do you know what, I'm going to live by the dice,

I'm just going to write down six different options, roll dice, whatever option it is, I'm going to do that. Is it real? No, but it's spawned a cult of people who tried doing it. Oh, great. I'd love to read that. It's a brilliant, very, very funny book. Anyway, Rorschas, he has 10 official inkblock cards and we're looking at them now on screen.

They're just kind of, you know, well, whatever. It's just 10 pictures of dick. I don't know why the big deal is. It's sexual, though, because look, Four along, that's a guy with a tall guy with a massive dick. Lady at the beach. See number four? Number three.

You see like a massive guy with a cute. That's a guy, that's someone shoving something off his ass, either. And then you got a bikini. Yeah. On the next one. Yeah.

So there's two women kissing on that one. Yeah. They're facing each other and their tits are towards each other. I was quite surprised how sexual are. And the bottom one is all fannies, aren't they? Yeah. That's a fanny,

Fanny, Fanny, Fanny, Fanny, Fanny, Fanny. Not two goes one cup. Charlie, that's not the raw. That's not the raw. They're showing... And even they do sort of look like two guys one cup.

They're showing Herman Guri. What do you think of this? Just two guys one cup. He's like, fucking out. I was like, yeah, it's bad, isn't it? Well, what about... Look what you did. You were doing way worse than this.

You're appalling what you did. Is that the worst thing you've ever seen? Have you ever seen anything worse than that? I actually never watched it. I couldn't bring myself to. I think the guy, the Chechen getting his head cut off. I think about more than two guys one cup. The raspberry kiss.

The raspberry sock. Yeah, that's bad. That's the worst thing I ever seen. So I should stress to our thick listeners, that they do not show two girls one cup to Herman Guring at Nuremberg to get sense of...

It's tenning blocks one Nazi is actually... Tening blocks one cup. So, but this is... The aim is to try and see what the subconscious mind does with an ambiguous image to try and get a sense

of who the person is. But the terrifying conclusion from Nuremberg the psychiatrist make is that they're all fucking normals. They have intense narcissism but their lack of conscience is not something

that might be any different from anyone else, right? They then really think that the Rawshash thing was kind of irrelevant. And I don't think that's a thing anymore in psychology, isn't it? I think it's all bullocks. It's more prevalent in TV and films because it's quite a fun narrative. But they needed a translator to translate from German to English. So all the weight, you know, that's just a translator going, oh, yeah, no, he sees a dick again.

He sees a big throbbing cock. Yeah. So the main takeaway from Nuremberg is that psychology could not, So there was not like a genocide part of the brain that they all had. Genocide button. Phrenology started to crumble with the genocide. Because it reinforces the idea that mass atrocity can be carried out by psychologically ordinary people.

There's also, because I did a lot of this at uni, there's a brilliant book called Ordinary Men. Or Genocide. Yes. I did study genocide at uni. There's a brilliant book called Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning, which kind of builds on this, and it's all about the Nazis on the Eastern Front

who weren't in concentration camps. were doing the free jazz lines out Griffin, shooty, shooty, the Miles Davis Holocaust. The Miles Davis Holocaust. They were, but they were actually killing people. They couldn't defend themselves.

They couldn't psychologically diss themselves by pushing a button in a room and then someone dying. They were killing them. Yeah. But they had the same psychological processes. The same ordinary people did awful, more.

They're playing at like Call or Duty, basically. Yeah. With that level of detachment. So now we get into the Milgram experiment, which, uh, now this happens just as, as our old friend, friend of the pods,

Adolf Eichmann, is on trial. So... That was our first four-parter, I think. He was our first four-parter. Adolf Eichmann, feel free to, if you've not heard that series, dig into that first.

So the Adolf Eichmann trial, you can catch up on that series, but he was a German man who loved trains, really. No further information needed. And if that's illegal, then, yeah, I guess he's guilty. But, um, So August 1961, is he called, what's he called?

Is he called Stanley Milgram? Yeah, he's called Stanley Milgram and he's an American, I want to say. Should we place this? Should we place 61? Right. Because we haven't placed anything. Well, okay, so 61. I guess that's after Elvis Presley's first album. Yeah, yeah.

And before the Beatles' first album. It's not before the Beatles. Where's the first, 60? 59, 58. Really? Anyway. Between Beatles and Presley, that's what's going on. Milgram has devised a study to try and explain the psychology of

genocide. So he wants to answer the question, which is what the jury in Israel are trying to do is... The jury? The jury of Israel and the jury of Israel. The jury of jury in Israel. Christ, that's a bit of fun. They've gone to the jury and found a jury. This country has gone to the jury.

They've gone to the jury and they've asked them to find a jury of jury to do their duty in finding out whether Eichmann could... The duty? The duty as jury. The duty. The jury's duty. Are you on jury duty? Now, what's that?

You could say that Eichmann was on jury duty. And now they're on jury duty. Yeah. That's going to be a lot of fun for the subtitle who's dyslexic. When that bit's clipped. Christ... The first bit he's understood. Poor guy.

I don't envy that clip, Nile. best of luck best of luck with that anyway that's his worst nightmare so he wants to answer the question of whether Eichmann could legitimately claim that he is just following orders

right yeah so Milgram suspects that the obedience exhibited by Nazis reflects a distinct essentialist German character which is what Young would say that's what we say that's what I said

right it was inevitable It's the spirit of woden. It's the spirit of woden. It's woden nonsense. They were social woden warriors. Hitler was a manic bixie dream girl and the country was of SJWs.

Anyway, so he gets some American participants. That was a good sigh. You hear that? Gary Neville commentary. He gets American participants as a control group before using Germans, right? So you want to just see if this experiment's going to work.

before he does it on actual Nazis, which he thinks are just Germans. You can't call everyone Nazis, though, Finn. Sorry? You can't call everyone Nazis. No, but this is the 60s. This is actual Nazis. So the experiment is as follows.

There's three roles, an experimenter, a teacher and a learner. Now, the teacher is told that the study is about how punishment affects memory, but that's a lie. They're told that they'll be paid regardless of what they do, and that the learner is strapped into an electric chair.

Darren did an episode with this. And the teacher is given a sample shock, to make it feel real. Yeah. And then he's told, they're in separate rooms, uh, and the teacher is told to basically put,

every time that the learner gets an answer wrong, the teacher's told to push a button, which delivers an electric shock. And the electric shock will increase in voltage. What they don't realize is that the, it's not actually hooked up. It's just the voices of an actor going, ah, ah, ah, oh, fuck.

Oh, fuck. Uh. Yeah. And as you increase the, um, voltage. Yeah. He comes harder and harder. So the buttons had labels like slight shock and like danger, severe shock.

And the screams are getting more and more. Yeah. Like please stop. Like, please stop. Stop. And then eventually they go silent. And then it implies that you basically killed them by shock and so.

implies that you're killing someone. And it's about will you obey an authority figure? Like, regardless of similarity. Basically like how much, if you wear a white lab coat, people will listen to you basically. Yeah. Because it legitimizes you. It's the,

and when they did it in less legitimate. legitimate settings, it went down by like 20%. So it was the authority or legitimacy of the room and the setting that made it more like the follow orders. So if the teacher wanted to stop. Which is not autism, right? It's the outfit. If the teacher wanted to stop, the experiments are used a set of escalating verbal commands

to pressure them like things like you have no other choice, you must go on. And the experiment would only end when the teacher refused all of these commands or the maximum shock had been delivered multiple. times. Right. I love it. Like they do this test and you just fred again

immediately. Yeah. Just bang, kill the gun. Kill the gun. Can't go. Bang, bang, bang. Bang.

Bang. So the results show that. I mean, quite interesting to do this test with different regional accents in the UK to see how a lot. You could probably

like, no, it's more the, the doctor who's telling you to keep going on. All the Irish, you'll do everything. You'll do everything.

Valies. Push that button. No. Yeah, you're doing that. But Welsh, I feel maybe you be like, Push the bad. No, fuck on.

I don't think it's legitimised enough. Yeah. Give it some well there. Yeah. Cockney, you're not trusting them. You think they're wheel of dealers. Yeah. Sling it up him.

African, I'm doing it. Hey. Push that bad don't know. What about if it was a kid? A kid ordering it. Well, probably not. No, right. I'll probably say fuck off.

Every participant went up to 300 volts, 65% went up to the full 450 volts. Can you just give us some context, Charlie, as to what is 450 volts? Like how big... No, I mean, Google it. Google it. Obviously, Google it.

I'm saying. Industrial equipment, like large capacitator banks and... But I wouldn't know about voltage, so I don't know if that would mean much to me. What was your light bulb? How many volts was that? What did you mean? What light bulb?

What do you, what do you, is it if I have one light bulb in my house? Charlie has one light bulb. In my three bed house. What light bulb do you, what's your one light bulb? Do you unscrew it and then move it to room to room

as you move through that house? Fucking idiot. The one that you got, the one that you got shocked with. Oh, it was an LED driver when I was replaced in the bathroom. That was, yeah. Yeah.

I don't know what that was. Anyways. What is virus of thoughts in terms of pain? it's just sort of dead it's hurt a lot apparently yeah yeah it's like involuntary muscle cardiac arrest like instant

skin break down freezing effect yeah so skin based down you freeze it's instant death right yeah so the results meant that when they were closer together the propensity dropped from the to push the button and even those who refused to continue

didn't demand the experiment stop completely or check on the learn there. Right. Interesting. The highest recorded voltage a person ever survived is 230,000 volts. Oh, that's fine then. It's fine then. 17-year-old Brian Latassa endured 97 after touching a high-voltage tower.

Well, let's have a look at it, though. Yeah. Probably looks like Nietzsche. Psychology then is like, okay, how have we, how do we, how do we all, how do we blame someone for what happened? For what happened? How much can we? Yeah. And how much is it latent in humans

to do this sort of thing? Which is interesting with like, as you were talking about like the labels and how the fact the label almost gives you a get out of jail free. We're living in that age for sure. I mean that there are no responsibility to the label. It's like the responsibility's on you. I'm autistic.

I know I'm not wearing any trousers in public, but I'm autistic and it's like, well, am I allowed to tell you to put some trousers on or is that a hate crime? But is that, is it weird to the modern ADHD autism revolution is basically fallen out from Nuremberg? Almost, yeah. So it's like it wasn't Nazis

for Holocaust, it wasn't your fault that you're an hour late because ADHD. Yeah. That's the sort of... It should be this other way around. Yeah. Like, the Nazis did the Holocaust. Yeah. And you're an hour late.

Yeah. I don't care... I don't care why you did it. You're an hour late. I was just ignoring orders. I was just ignoring orders. Yeah. Just ignoring orders, Your Honor.

Now, eight years... Eight years after Nuremberg, the psychologist's old. And Milds and Milner implanted electrodes into rats' brains. Maybe it is related to Charlie. That sounds like... They accidentally discovered stimulation in pleasure centres. See, look, me talking about having little buttons in the brain, you laughed at me.

But it seems like more and more we're finding out that there are little buttons you can push. Pleasure centre. Pleasure centres, pedo centres, genocide centres. So there was a... Bish-bash-Bosh. Look, I've always said, I believe in phrenology. Yeah, good. brain buttons.

They allowed the rat to stimulate their pleasure centres by pressing a lever that was connected to the electrodes in their heads. The rats would then, one of them basically gave them sexual pleasure. Yeah. And the rats would then press the lever 2,000 times per hour

for 24 hours, ignoring food, water, sexual partners, mates. They did this to the point of exhaustion and death. Yeah. So there was a rat who, Fred again, came themselves to death.

If we hadn't given Charlie a job, this would, this would be, yeah, but you do. I mean, that would be a nice way to go. Yeah, maybe. Starving because you're...

Whanking as well. I think most people, if you had that option of constantly doing it, you probably would. The same experiment nowadays, rather than giving rat and electro, it's giving you a quick-shot launch masturbator. Doesn't leave. Charlie, stop it. Smoke's coming out.

Charlie, stop. Charlie starves to death. Starves to death. The fucking air flyer all around. honest. And this experiment identifies the reward circuit, which is dopamine. Yeah.

And serotonin release and all that stuff. Well, ADHD is about, fundamentally it's about having your dopamine receptors all fucked up. Yeah. Right. So you can't release it naturally. So you have to find it. The reason why you steam.

Because as a child, you quick shot launch too much. That's what Freud would say. Because you got shouted on the toilet once. You're on the toilet and you didn't do a poo quick enough. Yeah. And then you quick shot launch masturbating. and now you've got ADHD, you can't concentrate.

Look, we've gone from physiognomy and from phlegm to a rat coming to death. So not that far, really. Really not that far. We've barely taken a step forward. And we've mainly gone sideways. You're sort of boomerang. Yeah.

We were getting somewhere. We've gone sideways. But psychology, listen, for all of you listening, watching, I reckon you'd commit the Holocaust as well if you were told to. Thank you. I also reckon you press a button to come until you died. See next week. You're rats.

On the pageant... You're Nazi rats. On the Patreon, tomorrow we will be dealing with the Stanford prison experiment. Yeah, very interesting, actually. Very interesting. Good stuff. Very fun stuff. And you also get early access to next week's episodes.

But each way, we'll see you next time on Finn versus History for more historical feels. Bye. Bye. Thank you.