Fin vs History - Messerschmitts Were Not ULEZ Compliant (with Al Murray!) | The Battle of Britain (Part 2)

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

This one goes out to all our war lovers. Featuring special guest Al Murray - The Pub Landlord himself! The Battle of Britain (Part Two)   The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.   For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon. ⁠patreon.com/fintaylor  Chapters      00:00 - Fat Russell Crowe  06:45 - Hitler’s Little Jig   09:40 - The Fat Man  12:03 - Big Green Egg   16:38 - World Cup Summer  22:48 - Dicampo Prevails  26:13 - The French Are Dogshit!   33:09 - Miss Shilling’s Orifice   41:37 - The September Holocaust  47:46 - Park’s Punted    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The defenses are very weak. We move the Panzer Division, the high speed pushing through the French defenses. And then the Luftwaffe come round, knock out airfields, yeah! Blitzkrieg! Yeah! Yeah! Snell! And of course, there is nowhere for the Nazis to get through the Marginal line. It's impregnable. Yes.

But if the worst should happen, we have the reserves from the Brie region, which I have represented on the map with a lovely Breivier, 36 minutes. I must have a little bit. I must have a little bit. I must have a little bit. And we're very creamy. Mm. Mm.

And then we have the arm... Before you put that away, my little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, go on. We have the Comte or the tanks with the hard outer shell. And we can even counter the jammer, but... All the way food. All the way food.

It is dry age. That's 36 months. Mm. Very nutty sort of flavor. Of course, we have the reserves. They have the pickled onion, which go very well. The British, the chutney, we know we can rely on the... Yeah, yeah, we can rely all this.

We do not take all of it, because I'm not some as well. We just have a little bit of them. And I'm with the Dutch, perhaps the... Obviously, we just move the transit division right into the trap. Delicious. But if we have cleared the board. The enemy are completely defeated. do?

Should we beg for lunch? It's a great idea. It's good. It's good. Welcome back to Finn versus History. I'm with the race show called. Hello. We have a genuine historian.

Look at this. We had a lot of controversial episodes before. He flew in the Battle of Britain. We've got a veteran. It's amazing. The pub landlord himself. Al Murray. One of the greatest British comedians.

I mean that sincerely. Steady on fellows. I mean that. I mean that. I mean, yeah. There must have been DVDs that are on YouTube of you and the Bloomsbury in the early 2000s. If eight-year-old me could see me now,

it'd be like, what's happened to the pub landlord? What's what's going on? When do you get this kind of fake, you know, Oxford accent from it? Well, I'm sorry to break it to you in the show. It'd be too much for me to handle, I reckon. Now, we've had a lot of controversial episodes of this podcast, and by that, I mean, we've had two where there's been women on.

Yeah. But you... No more. No more. We've learned our lesson. We've learned our lessons. Al you host a World War II podcast. The World War II.

Sorry. Sorry. And also we call it the Second World War because it's, you know, they didn't know the, it's not a sequel, first of all. No. It's not Godfather 2, right? It's better than the first one, like Godfather 2. So it's a bit like, all right, I'll withdraw all of that. Yeah.

But I think you could separate World War II into three Star Wars films. Yeah. In that, like, what, the, a new world. hope is probably up until the end of the blitz. Yeah. And then the middle bit is up until what, Starlingrad, and then the D-Day onwards is like the Return of the Jedi. Yeah, you could slice it that way. Yeah. I mean, it is a, it has got like a proper three-act.

Yeah. Structure. I mean, that's why it's the ultimate history topic, as we're talking about when we started this podcast, it is sort of like, it's the perfect narrative ending with the big fucking bomb like that. Is there any better like, done, done, bang, yeah. Night night, yeah. Thanks very much.

We've had enough of this. Yeah. Bugs Bunny comes out, the mushroom cloud. That's all fun. But also you have a cartoonish villain. This is pre-Bond. Hitler, as an archetype, is a Bond villain. The whole underground lair,

the whole underground lair, you know. Rockets. Rockets. Everything, yeah. Chewing the carpet when he doesn't get what he wants. I genuinely can't hear. So I'm going to have to take this hat off. If you're just listening, we are...

Oh, that's what you sound like. That's brilliant. Yeah. It's really. I thought it was doing muffled. It's like that clip of a deaf child who's just got a hearing aid attached and he hears his mother's voice for the first time.

It's the pop landlord. That's one of those clips that comes around basically every 18 months. People react to it like they've not seen it every 18 months. And I'm like, you're bored of it. This again? Yeah. It's a miracle.

It's a miracle. It's a miracle, but I've seen it. Yeah. Anyway, enough cuteness. We're here with Al Murray to discuss the Battle of Britain. In our last episode, Al, we talked about Herman Guring. Yes. Probably the funniest Nazi.

I mean, he certainly, I mean, funniest Nazis, world's tallest midget territory. Yeah, yeah. Not on this podcast. No, we're all midgets here, Al. He certainly, he certainly offers broad brushstrokes. Yeah. And his funnest for costumes and model railways.

Goose. Goose. Yeah, exactly. And there's then. amazing conference. Sorry, costumes, model railways. Well, I'm... Where you go to this?

Where are you doing here? Goose. You know I love goose. That's my favorite thing. Yeah, I mean, no, he holds that amazing conference during the Battle of Britain where he makes them all look at his model railway before they actually talk about what needs talking about. And is it one of those ones that goes, like in restaurants, goes all the way around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's not even with planes. It's not even... Carin Hall. No, no. No, he's a train set. He's just like, basically, he's filling his boots. He's making the most of being one of Hitler's number two. You know what, that's it?

He, what I think I liked about it the most is he made the most of it. Yeah. Because they didn't know how short it would be. No. But looking back, he can die saying, you know what, I made the most of that? I did it. Here for a good time, not a long time. And gets played by Russell Crow.

Yeah. So. Yeah, but this Russell Crow. This is not Gladiator Russell Crow. Oh, okay. This is fat Russell Crow, right? Yeah, he didn't have to put any weight on for the rock. And ironically,

Guring at Nuremberg Loses all the weight Yes, he did, yeah. And Russell Crow didn't. Yeah, I mean, that's part of the deal with the film. It's much easier for an actor to put on weight for a role than to lose it. Yes.

Well, well, not since the miracle of a Zenpick. Of course, sorry. Which you'll hear as a spokesperson before we should say. The podcast is sponsored as a Zemps.

Which again, Guring, I mean, probably wouldn't have touched the sides. Yeah, he would have eaten through it like Boris Johnson. He would have eaten straight through his Zem pic. Yeah. Fuck off.

Powered through. smashed through over enemy lines, destroy the airfields. No, no, I know I'm not hungry, so I'm going to eat more because I know I should eat. Try for the will. Yeah.

Try and for the stomach. Mine camp. Anyway, Battle of Britain, to place this, we didn't know, we didn't place anywhere. We normally, Al, I don't know what you're doing on your podcast. I've listened to We have ways of making you talk. And what's very different about your podcast,

you don't assume any ignorance on the part of the audience. No. It's straight into machine parts. Yeah. You know, it's four-place stuff. It's shed dads, right? It's a P-Shed Dads trying to get a peace and quiet from the family. 100%.

That's why I like the subject, because I've always liked it. So I, you know, I don't need to explain to anyone what a Bolton-Pull defiant is. Well, you will now. You're going to have to change. Your co-host, James Holland, has recently gone viral. And it is, I think the reason it's gone viral is because he's like, it's the archetype of a middle-aged man getting angry at a film getting stuff wrong.

It's him being annoyed about the film Fury. Tank commanders weren't that old actually and they didn't have fun in the tanks. Eyes closed, shaking head. Yeah, shaking head outside a cafe. Just let him cook. Just a dad. Stop getting boned at a barbecue.

He's right about quite long. You don't need AI agents, which may sound weird coming from service now, the leader in AI agents. The truth is, AI agents need you. Sure, they'll process, predict, even get work done autonomously. But they don't dream, read a room, rally a team,

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That's why I remember 988, Canada's suicide crisis. Helpline. It's good to know, just in case. Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a train responder anytime. 9-88 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government in Canada. I'm sorry. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it. I just like watching it like a sort of supernova exploding. Yeah, it's awake. Can you talk about something else? Please. Yeah. Now, the Battle of Britain, would you say, begins in June, July 40? Well, really, it's what, follows Dunkirk. So Dunkirk,

Dunkirk's done and dusted in June, the evacuation done it. So it's the, the air battles that follow that. Because the Germans don't know what they're doing. They're making up as they go along. But they did pretty well. Well, yeah,

but that's the interesting thing is they did not expect to be in the situation they were in. They didn't expect the French to fold. I mean, you know, a billion freedom fried jokes follow there. They didn't, they didn't expect the French to fold.

They don't expect the British to have bugged out. So they're improvising. And it becomes, clear to them that what they've got, if they're going to invade Britain or knock Britain out politically, they've got to, they've got to take control of the skies over, over England, but, but they haven't thought,

they've not thought that far ahead at all. No one has. They're sniffed up on gear and they've been winning so much, they must have a confidence for it's like, I reckon we take the fucking lot. Next club, next club. Let's do it. And there's that film of, there's the film of Hitler taking the French surrender at the railway carriage

campaign where he dances a little jig because he's so excited about. Of course he is. Because he can't believe what's happening. And then the film of him when he goes to Paris. We've seen that. That's the high point. I mean,

you've ever seen anyone so high on their supply. I mean, it's kind of amazing. Yeah. It's just like, this is fucking brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, we did it.

We did it. And we never imagined that we ever... Because they're gearing up to fight another First World War, really, they think. Yeah. Another, like, great long struggle. Yeah.

And they turn everyone over in... Yeah. But they basically turn the French Army over in two weeks. It's amazing. They're done to do with themselves. So what we normally do on this podcast, Alice, we place where the events take place and we do this by referencing something that happened before and after.

Because the listeners are not like yours. Could be anything. Right, okay. Our listeners are very, very thick. Stupid. They live in sheltered accommodation. They do not smell good. They have toilets with big red cords.

They have helmets even when they're not on a bicycle. They wear headphones and they're not listening to music. So it's the opposite of your audience. in many ways. So June 1940, would you like to have a go of place

in this as a historian? In June 1940, the British Army has fled northern France at Dunkirk, something like 330,000 men have been evacuated along with a lot of French soldiers as well.

We don't like to talk about that. So it's after Dunkirk and it's before... I mean, the Germans can't defeat you if you're not there, is what the British Army are thinking. Very clever. It's smart.

Yeah, very smart. It's not stupid. But they leave all their sense. stuff. Yes. So they've left all this stuff. And then, so that's what happens

immediately before the Battle of Britain. And then immediately, I mean, it didn't have to be immediately after. It could be, just to get, just for our listeners,

get a grip on it. The blitz happens next. Okay. That's quite, very historically couched. Charlie, do you want to give us a, you want to give us a play sip?

Yeah. So it's five years before Leslie Bowles is born. Who's Leslie Bowles? The fattest, the fattest baby in 90, let's have a look. Here he is.

Oh, here he is. Wow. And it's four. Right, right. It's prior to Britain. There's 32 years... Wait, wait, it's five years after, right? Five years after that and then 32 years before he died in a crane accident at work.

A crane accident at work. Interesting. Now, was he... Was he the ball? Is he the wrecking ball at the end of the crane? How did he die? I think maybe that's how he was moving. Right, yeah.

I think you actually confused them with the way you placed that. I don't think... I don't think our listeners have any idea what you're talking about. I think it needs to be in reference to Leslie Bowler's life. We do the fattest baby at different period. Okay, fine. Okay, so Leslie Bowles is, how old is? He's five years old.

And it's 42, 32 years before he died in a crane incident at work. Okay, can we find out more about the crane incident? Yeah. Let's get into the Battle of Britain. I suppose if Leslie Bowles was older, would he have been too heavy to fly? Yes. Or could he have been one of those barrage balloons, just hanging in the air that Britain used to defend. Yeah, exactly.

So, now in 1936, our three groups are set up. Bomber commands, fighter command, coastal command. The dads are ejaculating in their sheds. Helmets are on, wives are ignored. Yeah, these are great for ignoring your family, actually. That's why I think they're designed that way. And that's why we like the battle of mission. Christmas Day, I'm just going to eat my roast dinner in 10 minutes get back to the shed.

Huh? But Al, you do a lot of walking the ground, don't you? Yes. In fact, you were meant to come in this podcast earlier, and yet you then said to me that you spent too long on battlegrounds and your wife was annoyed. Yes, that's absolutely true. Yeah, interesting.

Yeah, because Jim and I, we go and visit places and we say that happened there and this happened there. And it's quite time-consuming. Yeah, it's a brilliant hobby. Yeah. In the mid-late 30s, Britain are preparing for some kind of air war, fair to say. Yeah, most definitely.

The RAF is formed on April 1st, 1918, towards the end of the First World War, there's been the raw flying culture, the army before that. And the RAF then has to, like, basically after the First World War, it has to find a purpose. And so what they use it for is basically bombing colonial villages and colonies to bring the locals into line. Keep it light. This is when we're the good guys.

Well, this is one of the great, but this is, I think, one of the... We're practicing to take on the bad guys. Well, exactly. And this is also one of the things that's the Second World War, because we do defeat the cartoon villain and people wearing black with skulls on, is if we get to write off, I think a load of the spicy stuff that precedes it. Yeah, that's why our history lessons are Henry the Eighth, than World War II. Yeah, yeah.

That's it. You skip everything in between. Skiddle of us. And some of us are like, can we go back to the phrenology bit, please, when you were measuring people's heads? Some of us. Sir, get the calipers out. I want a science from the 1890s, please.

It's my favourite area. Vienna in the 1890s. So, yeah, Charles Darwin. What about social Darwinism? What about Francis Galton? But anyway, so then the R.A.F. after the war, it's trying to like have a purpose. But it's also, because airplanes are new,

it's like seen as the absolute, like, cutting, it's like super cutting edge. Even though it's like biplanes and they're old now, it's super cutting edge. Like air friars. Yeah, basically, it's like flying an air fryer. Exactly. Like the Royal Airfriar.

And you've got airfires with the single draw and the heavies of the two drawer airfare. What have you got? I've only got the single draw.

I'm a fighter guy, not a bomber guy. Yeah, I'm a single draw. I've got a outdoor barbecue. So I have a big green egg. Do you? Outdoor, I've got a big green egg barbecue. So like,

it's just one uping each other. Sorry, we've gone from This is male bonding. I've got a fedora with a feather in it. I've got the nint. I've got the nint. I've got the nint. I've got the nint.

They're very hard to get, by the way. Yeah, they are. I've got a... What about it? I've got a ninja air friar barbecue grill, a wood fire grill. And it has the heating...

This show is going well, isn't it? It has the heating element. Yes, it is. How do we know what you spend it off? I wanted an air friar, but my wife... I think we've just killed. The last woman listed to the show has just signed off. She's just signed off. This is the lost.

Holding on for dear life. Al mentioned some kind of bolter. She went, I'll let that one. onslide. And then we mentioned three types of air fryers in a minute. And she's gone, right, I'm out. Crash the car. Fuck this.

And now we can speak freely. Finally. The women have turned off. Let's explore some ideas. It's got a heating element underneath the kind of ceramic plates. And then it's got a little compartment to put wood chips in. So you can kind of recreate a smoky flavor, but with the speed of an air friar. And when you open it, do you get a blast of that smoky flavor and cry?

Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't... That's the only time. It doesn't gas the entire garden, which is the problem with barbecues, is that they're actually quite antisocial. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's also the great thing about barbecues.

You can be left alone to cook in the garden. Yes. But anyway, my wife said we couldn't have an air fry because it would take up counterspace, and I think that's what counter space is for. I agree. I agree. She likes empty space, apparently.

I like machines on the counters. Okay, we're getting quite a good glimpse into your domestic situation here. Yes. Yes. the empty space required. Yes. The Leibn's realm. Yeah, she wants Leibn's realm.

For the counter. Anyway, so there are these three Bomber Command fighters and Coast Command set up in the Thurces. And crucially, there is radar, which is very new technology at this point. It is a British invention.

It is a British... Well, no, everyone's kind of thought of it, but there's a... They're all thought of it. There's a guy called Robbius. I thought of... Well, I know. Well, there's a guy called Rob.

got Watson what? Yes. At one point that basically the, the, the, the, the, the, the need, they need, they want detection devices. They've got listening, like, like, so huge, huge domes for listening stuff. And then there's a guy who comes forward in, like, in the late 20s, he goes, I can make a death ray. I could, I could, I could build you a death ray.

Because it's a sci-fi idea. I could build you a death rate. And he, and he, there's a story about a civil servant who's made to stand in front of the death ray. and then they fire it. And obviously, he isn't killed. Right. A civil servant is ordered to stand in front of a death row.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And they flick the switch and nothing happens, right? But basically, in all this sort of... Sorry, did that civil servant cry about being bullied? No, absolutely. We're talking about a different era. Back in the day.

Resilience. We were a different breed. We were different people. Yes, I'll do that. I'm a civil servant. I'm serving the country. Sounds like all of our listeners, though, firing death rates at civil servants.

Yeah, yeah. But in all that, that someone, there's this thing, radar basically, the idea of using radio waves of detection, reflected radio waves becomes a thing and they invest in it. And the British have this system and they look like a big pylon. So the Germans have got like a thing that spins like we think of a radar, like a thing that turns around. We have these great big pylons with wires hanging between them. And before the war, in 19359, the Germans sent a Zeppelin to fly all the way along.

the English coast to like check it out. And because it doesn't look like a radar to them, they think it can't be one. Genius. Brilliant. They're going, it's something, it's transmitting something. We don't know what it is. Just ignore that. Just ignore that. And the British turn it off when the Zeppelin comes along.

So there's nothing for them to examine. Right. Yeah. So they think we don't have radar? They think, well, they're not sure. They think we've got something but they don't know what it is. Do they know what radar is? Do they have a concept of it? Yeah, they've got their own. Right. But it's completely different and it's short range. It's not like this, um, what's better, which one's better?

Well, in the circumstances, the one the British got is better. Obviously. But we win here, right? We're not, we're not,

we're not, we're not. No, no. No. I'm not. That's not so good. I mean, I can't please in Deutsch.

I like Cartoflin. Yeah. That's what I don't know much, German. No, do I? This is that's it? I can,

I just to know I love potatoes. The Anglesteiner was befell! I know the entire downfall speech. Anyway, no, you can have a little more.

That was a befell, the Anglis Steiner was a befell! Where are you to wager, my befellarthe, so far as yet. That's the last year down for, he's got it all down. That was my German oral exam. Generally, my German teacher was called Frown Hanky. Really? Wow. Yeah.

No. Frangky, nine. That's why we were talking about, Guring is the kind of cartoonish Nazi. It's the cartoonish German, oh, Frau Hanky, you know, it's, um. It's, um, anyway. Anyway. Anyway. So, fighter command will be the most important for the Battle of Britain

because the fighters, again, for our thick listeners, fighters are the ones... They're ugly as well. Sorry? They're ugly as well. They're very ugly and smelly. They are... The fighters are things that shoot down bombers.

Yes. A bomber flying over its target will have a fighter escort. Yeah. Which is not like a small Japanese... Not like a prostitute. Not like our listeners have escorts. So it'll be a, what, a phalanx of fighter planes. that I then do combat with the enemy fighters.

And you're trying to protect your bomber so that it can drop its payload over the... Yeah, this is all spot on. But the interesting about the Battle of Britain is that's not what the British... There's a thing called the Dowding system. So there's an Air Chief Marshal Dowding... Well, he's not Air Chief Marshal.

He's the big cheese. He's the big cheese in charge of Fighter Command defence. And he's come up with this system using radar and using observer, people with binoculars, literally seeing the planes. Because once they're over the coast, they're not detected by the radar anymore. They have to be eyes on.

So we've got radar and then we've got what we call blokes with the binoculars. Yeah, the observed call. Right, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, and how accurate are they just going, well, that's going that way?

They're saying there's, you know, what we think is 100 airplanes proceeding on this bearing at what we think is that high. And they've got like a, they've got like a sort of sextant theodalite thing so they can take a bearing on the aeroplanes. And they have to report kind of every five minutes.

And there are five, there's viewing stations, are five miles apart. So they get this really complex picture of information that then gets filtered at Bentley Priory in West London, where they're getting all this information, drawing it in figuring out what to do.

They're loving it, though, aren't they? Oh, yeah. They're loving it. Like British dads, being British makes sense in this case. But I think there's something particularly about the Battle of Britain where it's quite hard to visualize

because it's all in the air. Yeah. But it's a real... It's a bit like that. Yeah. But I think it's also, it's an English summer. And it's an English song where we do well. And so it's been romanticised like a good World Cup summer.

Yeah. And these long days... Like a box of tea. Like that's how the England looks when it's on a... Long days, war mail. And also the pilots, they're going up and fighting. And then they're just going to the pub afterwards. They're getting so much pussy.

It's unbelievable. Unbelievable amounts of... It's not to refer to it like that in their memoirs. But... We're trying to make it vivid for the listeners nowadays. Yes, we're trying to bring it up to date now. Yeah. I mean, they did...

That's the thing is they do. go, they do go to, um, the pub that they're encouraged to go to the pub in the evening after it to, to, um, let it all out. And then apparently in the morning, if they're still a bit groggy, when they have to get in the plane, they just 100% oxygen here, wipes them clean. Yeah. Which is now like you see those vans going around Las Vegas where people get IV drinks of like fluids. Yeah. Um, so Britain has this doweling system. Yeah. Is that the most important, uh, aspect of our defence. It's something...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's... And it's the first ever fighter defense system, air defense system in the world. No one's done it before. Is it called the down system

because he designed it? Yeah, because it's... I'm doubting. It's the radar on the coast. There's a long... There's a long-range one and there's a shorter range system.

And basically the Germans come over the channel and you, they can see them... If they're coming from... If they're coming from Calais, they can see them forming up over the French coast

and then coming over. So they, you know, they know how many are coming and they know what direction they're going in and roughly where they're headed. And it means they can get the fighters up and attack. So obviously there's a big home advantage because you can refuel in Britain and the Germans have to go back home. And if you shot down, you get banged on ahead with a teapot or something. Well, if you get banged on ahead with a teapot. Yeah, you're told off. Chased around with your bridge, you get a couple of tea. Yeah, exactly. The two sides of Britain. Or if you're, but if you're a Polish pilot, you can go either way. Yeah.

And that's still the case today. Depending on where you land in the country. If you land in London, come and have a cup of tea. Let's go that yellow and blue map. If it's in Lincolnshire, run. Forget about it. Run into the sea, as you're safe as bet. Anyway, so, yeah, Dowding divides the country into regional groups.

And when he's doing this, is this like, is this post-Dunkirk? How quickly after Dunkirk are they, have they got a system that they can immediately snap into? No, this is all in place before the war. Right, okay. Because before the war, there's this, there's an Italian military theory. called... A bit of an oxymor. Well, yeah, that's tall as war.

Precisely. It's the only one they've ever had, right? And it turns out who's wrong. Called Duet. You need to have sex with the most beautiful women in the world. And he says that you're going to use, what they're going to do, the future war will be won by bombers, which will bomb civilians populations to the point where they rise up against their politicians

and overthrow them, right? And it's this idea that the... Not Gio de Campa, that's someone else. It's not Gino de Campo. But it sounds like a very similar... It's the lineage that he's part of. Geno DeCampo would bomb runners on set with words and demands

until they could convictulate it. Yeah, until they demanded a revolution and they got him fired. So he was right. He was right in some ways. He was just thinking about Gino DeCampo and not air warfare anyway. But it's his idea that bomber will always get through.

DeCampo will always be. Yeah. And so everyone's really nervous about the effect of bombing. And the British government was really freaking out about it. And their expectation is that the population will rise against them

and all this sort of thing. They're really worried. I'm genuinely worried about that. So the fighter system to defend London is put in place well before the war. Because this is sort of the first war which is actually taken into the cities,

I mean in British cities. Wars before that had been kind of, they'd been abroad. They've been external things. Well, we don't, you know, last time we did, fighting here was, well, it depends if you're Scottish.

Yeah. Clodin. More recent. Clodin. Right. But, you know, the Civil War is the last time English cities were sort of smashed up.

Yeah. So that's why everyone is so scared. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All we stamp collectors and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So, Dowding is, England's divided into these groups.

11 group is the most important region, which is around the southeast, Kent. The first line of defence, against Luftwaffe raids. And I guess you know off the top of your head, when's the first full of warrants this July? Is it, 1940? Well, what happens is this thing called the Canal Camp?

Yes. Now you speak in my language. Where the Germans attack English shipping along the coast. Because one of the things that's going on is, you know, at the time we're a coal economy. So you've got a lot of coalers coming down from Newcastle, for instance. coming down the east coast to London, and then round, round to Portsmouth and onto Plymouth,

bringing coal down. And the Germans attack that shipping and make a real effort to attack that shipping. So that's the sort of the first set of encounters that start, that are at the start of the Battle of Berlin. And then they start attacking the airfields. Is it affected the coal bombing? Well, yeah, kind of.

But then there's the thing about the, the problem the Germans have is that there's the Royal Navy as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So presumably they're in the channel defending. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so if the Germans ever get around to invading, they're going to have to contend with the Royal Navy. So that's, but that's kind of like, that's almost like,

it's almost not worth talking about the German invasion plan, Operation C-line, because it's, it was never going to work. But they kind of think that as well. Yeah, yeah. Everyone kind of thinks it's bullocks. Yeah, yeah. I think the army think it might happen,

or at least Hitler probably thinks it might. Well, yeah, but it's politics. They're trying to, the real, what they're really trying to bring Britain to the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the problem is, is Winston Church, you know, their problem actually is, Winston Churchill, you know, because he's not going to do it.

No. Never. Fuck off. He would eat through his Zemper. He would eat through his empire. For sure. All day long and wash it down with... Yeah, Paul Roger.

I mean, his, his booze consumption is really like, there's something genuine... When you read what he would cut through every day, it's genuinely heroic. But then you see what he wrote and the, like, the precision of his writing. Having had two bottles of Paul Roger before 10 a.m. Yeah. It's like Antros Thompson. This is the greatest writer that's ever lived. I don't understand how you can write that well, that hammered.

Right. So, as we've said, there's an advanced system of command of control. They've got the radar. Now, the Dowling system is all these different nodes are centered in, is it Stanmore? Is that where it's Benley Park is? And this is where they get, apparently, the most attractive women, Hugh Dowding, confined, to move stuff around. Lean over the table and everything.

Yeah, exactly. And then there's a gallery of men going, ooh. So what they're doing is this is the women's auxiliary air force, nicknamed the beauty chorus. They're in the filter room. And they're just, it's a bit of, a bit of blue for the dads, I guess. Let the dog see the rabbit. Keep morale up.

So they are, they're getting information from the blokes in the coast with binoculars and the radar. And they're, but obviously, planes are moving quite fast. Yes. So they just, how fast do they. moving. They're getting up to... There's a clock. There's a clock.

And the information on the, on the, on the, on the sort of map, you know, and they are, they are literally sort of doing that. Yeah. It's color coded for how long ago it came on the clock in quarters of an hour. So there's this, there's this blue, red, yellow clock layout on the, on the clock face. And so they know how old the information is as, as it, as it progresses. Because the Germans will change course as well. Because one of the things that, you know, they're heading one direction to make you think

they're going to Norwich or whatever and then they'll they'll tack into London and whatever. So the... But who's genuinely falling for like... Oh no, they're going for Norwich. No, no, because the point is to get the fighters up. Not Lincoln. You need to be higher up than...

Like, nagging London. Yeah. But the less attracted friends. Where are you going? Come back. Why are you following Norwich? They're attacking airfield. So it's very hard actually to tell really where they're going for.

This is the big point we need to get to in that the sort of the main... the story of the Battle of Britain is that initially Gerring has said to Hitler he will knock out the RAF by the middle of September and so either British comes terms actually says originally he says we can do it

and look four five days doing a week, fuck it yeah yeah and he's got this this intelligence guy Beppo Schmidt who writes who writes who writes who's like a pool boy

Beppo Schmidt and he really is like he writes this case blue I think it's called this like intelligence report about the state of Britain and he just doesn't know He's going, maybe there's 300 fighters or 600.

He's just making up. And he's going, he doesn't know about, he doesn't even know fighter command exists. At Desjardin, our business is helping yours. We are here to support your business through every stage of growth, from your first pitch to your first acquisition. Whether it's improving cash flow or exploring investment banking solutions, with Desjardin business, it's all under one roof.

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left behind. Start with just a name or place and let our intuitive tools guide you. Visit Ancestry.ca.a to start today. No credit card required. Terms supply. There's no mention of FID to come on in the German assessment. Intelligence. Whereas a modern war now, your intelligence would be far, far better, right? Well, yeah. I mean, the R.R. F would have said they've got a fight come on on on Twitter. Yeah. Yeah. Because it is interesting how blind there, obviously it's easy with hindsight. Yes. Because in my head, I'd be like, I'd always know that. Yeah. I would have just known that. But you really don't know any of this stuff. But modern wars would be very different, right?

Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But you wouldn't be this much in the dark about someone's military capabilities. Is this the first time World War II where the Germans are actually, like, was it that they were really good on the Western Front or in Poland? Or was it that. Oh.

Well, but as in, you know, obviously the French. I don't know quite bad. The French club. Listen. No, the French are dog. The French are dog shit in May of 940s, what it really comes down to. They really make, they kind of do. They kind of do everything

the Germans could possibly want them to do. It's because they've got a 95-year-old media. And they have a Michelin-Star restaurant underneath the Michelet. The Maginot is just a restaurant. And they won't use radios. They use guys on bikes and...

Pigeons. It's really bad. Then they put corn down the neck of the pigeon. And it's the same place where the Germans attacked in 1870 and they were attacked in 1914 and 1940.

It's the same. Through the identity. It's exactly the same crossing on the river and everything, yeah. So they went lightning, road strike three times. It's right. They'll go through the pick forest again.

Same place three times. There's no way they're coming over. How would we have none? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I've done it again. But it's in, what I mean is the failure of intelligence that the Guring

and his guy have about Britain. Is this the first time that they're basically, are they not doing that intelligence? Yeah, but it's a mark of the fact they weren't, they're in a situation they're simply not expecting to be in.

Whereas Poland, They've been sizing Poland up for ages. France, they think long and hard about what to do about France. Poland is my garden for my air friar. I know exactly where it's going to go. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's going there in the corner. Exactly.

I have to face away from guests. Exactly. And there's going to be a lot of smoke coming out. But anyway. Yeah, they're making up as they go along for the Battle of Brin. They don't know what to do. It's why they don't, they haven't thought about it at all. Yeah.

So the initial plan is that they're going to knock out the RAF, which means, as you say, bombing airfields. Yeah. How many airfields have Britain got, 50 odd, something like this? It's hundreds of air stations. The thing is, like in modern fighter planes, in fact, most planes at that point aren't designed to be able, they can take off on grass fields on grass landing strips. So it's not even like, if you can bomb a concrete strip, you put a boulder in it, it's more of a problem. So what the British have is they have, because the idea of the advantage of a grass strip is the wind can be blowing in any direction.

The women aren't listening out. You can... Come on. Don't feel... Don't feel bad. The advantage of a grass airstrip is you could take off into the wind whichever direction is in. Whereas a concrete one is like a straight line

that you'd take a guess on which way the wind's going to be blowing, right? So you could go in any direction, get your planes off any old howl. But it also means if it's bombed, you've got like... They literally have mounds of dirt and bulldozes. Yeah. And they just fill it in.

Right. So grass landing strips were better during the Battle of Britain. Yeah, yeah. And a really resilient and they can withstand the punishment the Germans are dishing out. Also, the Germans, they don't know which stations are which. So they bomb, they bomb, they bomb stations. They, because they don't, they literally don't know anything about.

And am I right in thinking this is where they have, their system of navigation is that they've sent out two, is it radio beams or waves? And the bombers will follow one. And then when they pick up the other one, that's their point. Yeah, yeah. But the Brits start just sending up other radio waves. Yeah, bending the beam, literally bending the beams.

And that's R.V. Jones and Watson what are involved in that. He's back. What's and what's back. But, but, but yeah, I mean, basically the, because the Germans, they have literally no idea what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what they're easy in Britain, you know, in terms of any of it. So they're bombing airfields, but, but, but they, they, but they're smashed big in hill up properly. Um, but, but, but, but, you're sat, you're speaking, quite defeatist about the Germans. Well, they, they, they, they're basically, they do lose. Yeah. I mean, yeah. This is this, this, this is a fight that's going on underground, isn't it, Finn. Sorry? It's a fight that's still going on underground. Yeah,

some of us are still carrying the torch. I was wondering if I was on the right podcast in that moment. Yeah, it's not a sister podcast, it's a sister that you don't, you've kind of falling out with. You're a strange sister. A strange sister.

So the Germans are trying to knock out airfields and they only have a what? They have, when they start coming over, this is everyday July 1940, August 4040, they're having these long days of aerial combat in the sky. If you're a British civilian, you're looking up, you're in the southeast.

Obviously, if you're in Wales, just carry on as normal, I guess. Yeah, it's not happening there. Not happening there, but you're hearing the noise of the terrifying noise. Are Stuka's involved in the Battle of Britain? Yeah, well, to start with. Yeah. Yeah, because the Stuka's the thing with the-the-fighter. Yeah, yeah.

A dive bomber. And, but their problem is, is they're really slow, and they're very vulnerable to spitfires and hurricanes. So they get, they get shot down and they withdraw them. They give up on them. Why are you just, why don't you just, sorry, Why don't you just talk to us about the actual planes? Okay. Just, you know, slap us around the face with it.

Go on. Okay. Well, so. Butter us up. What's happened is in the 30s, you've had this real revolution in aircraft design. And everything previously up to that point, it's been by planes, really.

Yeah. An income single, monoplane single-wing aircraft. And that's the World War I, the two weeks. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

The fut along. And what happens is there's new engines. so famously there's a Rolls-Rouris-Murlin engine that the British have that's really powerful. And the Germans have a, in the Messerschmitt 101, they have an inverted Dame LeBenz engine. Christ. And the Germans...

So is that anything linked to Mercedes-Benz? I don't think so, no. No. But basically, and it's got fuel injection. So it's there, the engine on the... The engine on the... Go on, go on. The engine on the...

Messer-Smit. It's marginally better than the Spitfire. But basically, these are really fast planes. They can climb really quickly. They can dive really fast. And you have this interesting thing where there's the hurricane, which is like with more of those. The British have made more of those.

Still a fighter? It's a fighter. It's a little bit slower. But I mean, any schoolboy, I tell you, or any schoolboy, my age. Because that's what I am still, essentially. It's got like a fabric covering on it. So if it's damaged, they can just patch it.

more linen, whereas the Spitfire is made of aluminium mainly. So if it's damaged, it's more complex to repair, but it's a better aeroplane. And the podcast I was listening to it said, even though the Spitfire gets most applauded, so the Hurricanes did the most. Well, yeah, first of all, there are more of them, so they are going to do more. Right, right. And secondly, their job, they split the jobs, so the hurricanes are sent after the bombers and the Spitfires are sent after the escort, the fighter escort.

Right. Although the Germans have two aircraft in their fighter escort. They have the 109, which is the little single seat to play. They have a two-engined meshesemot called the 110, the Jesterra, the destroyer, that's slow and ponderous and can be shot down. So the hurricanes can mix it with that. They're getting with the bombers. So the hurricanes do shoot down more aircraft, but because there's more of them and they're given arguably an easier job. Okay.

And other fighters, is this still a case of like World War I when there's a guy with a machine gun in the plane? No, no. They've got guns attached. They've got guns. But the Germans have got heavier guns. They've got like a cannon which fires an exploding shell. So if it hits you, it'll do you more damage. We've got machine guns, which in a like 1923 report,

they never fit these to fighter planes. They like pea shooters. And the war office and the air ministry thing, well, we've already got a load of bullets left over for those from the First World War. Got to use your bullets. How did that manifest itself? Who was right?

The Germans were right about that. It just doesn't have the British don't have the punching power with their armament that the Germans have. Right. Because also with the Spitfire, the wings are really thin. Okay. So the guns are spaced out across the wing. Yeah.

And they have to be tuned to converge. So you'd, where the bullets would all meet. And so you'd have the arguments about how you'd have your bullets converge at 300 yards or 250. And some pilots are like, no, I need to 50. Well, you'd have to tune it up. You'd literally have to turn, they'd crank the guns so they'd all point, they'd point inward. So they'd be met at a certain point. And there's all that going on in the aircraft and the armament.

Sorry, if you tune them to the right degree, could you shoot yourself in the cockpit? No. You know, there's this... You could, probably. I mean, I don't think you'd be able to persuade anyone to set that up for you. It'd be quite a funny way to go. It would certainly a way to go. And the British don't have a...

They don't have a fuel injection. They have a problem with a carburettor in the Merlin engine, in the Spitfuzz and Hurricanes. If they turn the plane over, the fuel can cut out or the engine can cut out because it gets an extra dose of fuel. And so there's a woman called Berman. Beatrice Tilling, Beatrice Schilling rather, who invents a thing called Miss Schillings Orifice.

Oh yeah? I'm listening. And that's like a, that's a washer that goes in the engine to stop it cutting out when they turn the plane over. Miss Schilling's orifice. Miss Schillings orifice.

Right. Wow. If we're talking brass tacks, what is the, I'm thick as well? What is the best plane? Spitfire. Unpatriotically.

Objective. I'm being objective and patriotic. So it's possible. Yeah. Yeah. It's a Spitfire Not these days No, the Spitfire

Because And the reason is At this moment in time The Spitfire is the best plane in the world I mean you talked about Home Advantage earlier on The Messerschmidt When it gets to London

For instance It's probably only really got 10, 15 minutes over London Before it has to turn around And go back Because it's not got the fuel capacity Whereas a Spitfire Can tool around

Having a proper go So in the circumstances The Spitfire is the best of playing In the circumstances But actual design Spitfire Still Yeah

Because it's got worse guns. Yeah, but the other thing about the Spitford they're able to upgrade it more successfully as the war runs. So the more open-ended design. I'm just trying, I'm getting the vision of you at a pub seeing what's on tap. And it's like, Peroni, Madri.

Nah, none of this shit. Real hell. Where's Hobgoblin? I want a pint of hobgoblin. Fuck off with your Peron. It's a madri carling anyway, isn't it? Rebadged carling. This is exactly.

Here we go. So there we go. So I'll take it. I'll take the Madrii then. Take the Spanish hat off with quite the carling. So, now the story of the Battle of Britain, Eagle Day in August 1940, this is when the Germany sort of really starts bombing.

Tries to, yeah. Tries to start bombing. I'm trying to create suspense for the thick listeners. They're on the toilet, they're struggling to find the court. Yeah, certainly in the movie. In the movie, it's a big feature in the movie, and there's a big thing in it in the film. They make big play of it, yeah.

But there is a point, I mean, Charlie, what have you found? I was just saying how many fish might have died in the Battle of Britain but there's no specific record So I don't think Birds maybe might be more Birds would be the thing to look up Yeah Charlie gets confused between fish and birds sometimes

He's very very thick I'll produce Charlie No it's again not recorded What would the environmental impact of the Of the war Yeah I mean what about all the emissions Oh yeah I mean that's Yeah

This is a tragedy for a tragedy for can you imagine Ules in the Battle of Britain. Sir Dick Slutton. Well, you know, I can't fly in my measure smear. It's not fucking E-LES compliant. And later in the war, we have a fog dispersal thing.

You know about this called Fido? No. So basically, if you're flying, if you're flying back from Germany, right, on a bomb raid and it's foggy on the way in, they have airfields where they literally, where they burn petrol.

They're just set fire to petrol and it disperses the fog. Yeah, have that, Thumburg. Have that, Greyer. You like that? Fuck off. And that, Jesus. son.

Nazi Nazi Thunberg. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The Nuremberg rallies, the Thurbanberg rallies. It's in there somewhere. What have you found?

Over 750,000 dogs and cats were killed in one week. Wow. In the Battle of Brissom? Yes. I'll take the cats. So I'm pressing voluntary massacre of pets. Yes, that's quite right.

Yeah. The September Holocaust. I didn't know about this. Yeah, people had their pets put down because they couldn't rather than evacuated. Oh, because dogs on fire. Firework night.

Yeah. Exactly. It's a firework night, you know, bonanza. Do you know what? I've never, I've never thought about that.

That's a lot of, I mean, I'd say that's a war crime. As a dog owner, I'd say, I'm quite iffy about this. Was it just because you can't have them in the city because they'd,

let the Germans know. It's an unhappy, unhappy time. But what I would say is that we, we evacuate the women and the children to the countryside. And yet we kill the dogs. Could that not have been the other way?

But I'm, you're back out in a garden. airfroar on you. Why aren't the dogs evacuated with the women and children? Yeah, I don't know. No. They're just all killed. No, they put a load of them down.

Yeah. The vets do very well out of the Battle of Britain, I guess, don't they? They've got no work because there's no dogs. I'm a Battle of Britain vet. Yeah. How many cats did you kill? Yeah. The September Holocaust, 1939, 1940,

roughly 400,000, three quarter of a million pets, are euthanized in Britain in the first week of the war. So it's not even prior to the Battle of Britain. It's pretty preventive. Yeah. I'm looking over here. It's the bombing scare. Like I said, people are really scared about bombing.

The bomber will always get through. There's this panic on. And so, yeah, that's really terrible. Really bad. Now, the story of the Battle of Britain that I'm aware of, that you may rejoice in telling me is wrong, is that, you know, looking from the German perspective, It was going, they were making, they had heavy losses and their intelligence was crap,

so they thought that inflicted many more losses on the Brits than they had. But there is a point, end of August, start of September, where the RAF supposedly is quite close to being wiped out. Or at least it's in serious trouble. Yes. How correct is that? Well, the problem with that way of looking at it is, is it's come, it's not quite right. The 11 group, who are the south-east. They're under a lot of pressure

because it's mainly coming through 11 group. 10 group aren't, 12-group aren't. And so 11 group, and there's a point where it looks like they're entering crisis. But the whole point of the group system in the RF is you can rotate the squadrons in and out from the other groups. So they are actually, they're never short, they're never actually... Deep squad.

Yeah, exactly. There's the whole way... 23-man squads. Exactly. Yeah, well, yeah. But that's the other thing is the squadrons, the squadrons have more pilots than aircraft so they can rotate within the squadrons.

So it literally is deep squad. So the Germans are running, Germans are running Stafel, the squadrons are smaller and everyone flies, whereas the British have a bigger squadron and not everyone flies. You can't win a World Cup with 15 people. No, well, exactly.

And that is actually the mistake of Germans wake. Because the German pilots have to fly every single day, every sortie. Some of them are flying two or three times a day, and they're exhausted, and they're not going to the pub, they're in camps, in tents and, you know. It's stereotypes.

We're in the pub, they're in a camps. I mean, it could be more on the nose, right? But there is a moment where 11 group are under a lot of pressure, but actually it's not really a moment of crisis. And the Germans are not really destroying airfields, and they're not having the effect they have. And also British fighter production at this point is out producing German replacement.

So the Lufthoffers running out of planes and people and the REF actually kind of isn't and he's actually getting the replacement planes. But this is the Eric Hobsbom School of Thought which the World War II, which to us is the most exciting thing that's ever happened, a kind of space opera of war was actually a race against factories which makes it seem a lot less exciting.

It is a lot less. It's a lot less excited. I mean he's right, but someone still going to get in a fucking airplane and fly the thing. Well, exactly. And that's the bit where the adventure comes in. where there's the Slough office and the Reading office and we're going to have to liquidate Slough

and that's basically what he says. That's the World War II film he wants to see. That's what he wants to make is like, oh no, we're going to have to fold an article into Britain American because their factories are better. It's not as captivating a narrative that way around. But there is this moment where 11 group are supposedly on the edge.

And at the end of August, German intelligence tells Gering that the RAF had lost 791 planes to the Germans 169, when in reality it was more about... These are sort of North Korean numbers, right? Yeah, we've lost 7-1 or 8-1 to the Portuguese. The total German aircraft losses was approaching 900.

Now, as 11 group in the South East is at Hell's Corner, which is the nickname given to the... It's most exciting Kent's ever been, right? Yeah, well, Hell's Corner's now probably a weather spoons in Margate. But this is where, like, Biggin Hill. So Biggin Hill gets blown to shit. Yeah, yeah. Biggin Hill really cops it, and it's really smashed up.

Yeah. But it's a, I mean, one of the other things is no one can find anywhere. There's no, you know, no one's using ways, right? And the Germans rely, they don't have, they don't have radar, they don't have radio within their fighter groups. So basically they'll go up and a bloke will be reading a map on his name. So no one's talking to each other. No, they can't talk to each other. Because one of the German fighter races, this guy called Adolf Galland.

He doesn't believe in radio. He thinks it's going to confuse everyone. Right. They should be fighting on their instant. Brits have radio. And in your spitfire, you're vected, you're told where to go. You're vected to exactly the right point. And you take your, you know, you're given direction and everything.

Whereas the Germans are swanning around looking for trouble, basically. So, Al, if Operation C-Lion was kind of a non-starter, didn't they? Was the Battle of Britain a non-starter? Were they always going to lose that? Yeah, they were, yeah. There was not really... Yeah. I mean, one of the things about the Battle of Britain is, is it's an amazing...

You know, it's the few, it's all that. The idea that we won by the skin of our teeth. But actually what happens is the Germans are, and it's also to reverse of the Germans, you know, there's stereotype of the Germans are super organized, super efficient. And that we're like, beach towel on the holiday. Exactly. And we bumble through and like mustn't grumble.

And it's actually completely the other way around. The Germans are improvising. And we've got this system run by really, really ruthless people, populated by really, like, dedicated ruthless people. and they feed themselves into the minza, basically. Right. Right. So it was always going to go wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's no, is there any way Gering could have, could he actually have knocked out the Air Force? No. So even... He's still fighting the war. But even, you know, even if, so there's a point where,

and I can't remember whether it's a bomber, German bomber squadron accidentally drifts into London airspace, and bombs or whether it was a definitive change in strategy. Yeah. Because there's also this guy Kesselring, right? Yeah, yeah. Smiling Albert. Yeah.

Supposedly he is a much more realistic than Gering. He was a bit of a fantasist and a theatrical guy. Guring wants big explosion. Oh, wow. Big explosions. He wants to put a mentor in a Coke bottle. Wow! Bombing London.

Kesselring, at least from what I've read, seems to understand that if you try and keep bombing the airfield slowly, attritionally, test cricket, you will win out. But Kessering didn't have Hitler's ear in the way Guring did. And also Kessering's problem is he still doesn't know where the airfields are. Because the intelligence is crap.

Yeah, yeah. And it might be causing wear and terror on the British, but it's also... There are too many jobs that Lufth have to achieve to win the Battle of Britain. They aren't up to... They aren't capable of each of the single jobs they're trying to pull off. So, you know, they've got to destroy the airfields,

destroy the fighters, bomb London. And they're bombing London the docks militarily. But it's about political effect. It's about to make us give up. Right. So they could have done that if it wasn't Churchill. If they started doing that, if they started by doing that,

you know, the political outcome might have been really quite different. Chamberlain was still about. Well, no, because Churchill's in. Once Dunkirk's happened, it's very feebrile. And you've got people writing, you know, writing their diary, I've got the suicide pills ready for if the Germans invade. I'll go down the, go down the. guard, we'll go down the bottom of the garden and kill ourselves

even though practically, if you think about it, it would have never worked anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I'll put about hindsight here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have known. I would have known. I just want to say I've had a real sense of what it's like sitting next to you at a wedding. Yeah. Oh, yeah, great. And I can talk about, actually, Britain would always have won the battle. I can't talk about other shit, but, but no, we brought, we brought, this is why you're here.

You're here to get into the machine. So I guess it's more of a killjoy, maybe when you know as much about it as you do. Because the popular narrative... The underdog. The underdog victory. It's a propaganda thing, right? That's a psychological crutch the Brits have

for all their victories. Roakstreet. Dund and Sudan. Dunger. Yeah. Even Gordon in Sudan. Why were we there? It doesn't matter.

We're asking questions. Underdog emperor, like colonialists. And what's the Churchill quote is never... Never so much been raised by a second. You're a corinic. It must be low by so many. It's so cute. But he, like the, what, how many, the Battle of Britain is, what, is a few hundred people?

Five hundred people. Five and forty-four pilots killed. Yeah. Flying. About 2,800, I think, fly in total. Bomber commander also attacking the German airfields the other side of the channel. But there's 300,000 people in the RAF. Yeah.

There's about 100,000 people, about 100,000 people on the flat guns firing. And, well, the anti-aircraft thing is really interesting as well, because. they can't hit anything. No. That's morale, basically. Yeah, if they have to keep firing the guns so that people think London's being defended, even though it's wearing the guns out and using ammunition up and they aren't achieving anything,

it's to make people feel that... We're having to go. They're being looked after. Yeah. So I think now we're moving on to the big wing. So what's that? Well, this is what you want to talk about. Before you were saying,

this is like a load of cunts, I believe you said. Well, certainly there's some big personality Sure. So 11 group is commanded by a guy called Keith Park who's a first World War Fighter Ace is from New Zealand and he's an absolutely brilliant man

and he with Dowding devised the Dowding system that's defending England and 12th group there's a guy called Trafford Lee Mallory whose brother is the guy who climbed Mount Everest and never came back.

Right? Right. So from a... Good chaps. Men of action. And Lee Mallory was a barrister and then he goes into the REF and Lee Mallory

is like one of the most extraordinary intrigues He's always doing the politics. He's a snake. And he thinks he should be commanding 11 group, not this bloke from New Zealand. And he thinks actually in the end he should be in charge of fire to command.

And he intrigues really hard against, and politics against doubting. And this is one of the, you know, there is the story of the underdog of the Battle of Britain, which is kind of true. But there's also everyone coming together. And that is not what's going on in fire to command

at all, in the Royal Air Force, at all. And so 11 group is sort of Norfolk, Suffolk, Norfolk, Essex and across the middle. So it's a middle sway of the country. Brexit. Brexit, great. I mean, roughly. Yeah, why not? Yeah.

And one of the big fighter stations is Duxford outside Cambridge. And there's still the Imperial War Museum museum there, and they fly Spitfires there and all this sort of stuff. And basically, the expectation was not that we'd be fighting over the channel, but if the Germans were going to attack, be coming over the North Sea from Germany and that Duxford would be the big station that was going to defend London. Not Kent, because the French have thrown the towel in

and the Germans are operating out of Calais, right? And Normandy. And so basically, Duxford's set up as this big fighter station. Anyone who's there thinks they've got the plum gig and Lee Mallory thinks he's got the plum job and then it's all happening somewhere else. And so he's getting really, really frustrated, he's not in it on the action.

And on... And he comes up with this idea that what, you want to do is mass squadrons of aircraft and attack, they all form up and then they attack the Germans. He's not up to speak. He doesn't like the Dowling system. He doesn't think it's going to work. And principally because it's not his idea. Right. And there'll be no credit in it for him if it works, right? So a huge ego. Yeah. And he wants to come up with something else so that he can go, I did that. That was me. The Mallory system. The Mallory system. Yeah. And there's, there's Douglas Bader, who's the really famous fighter pilot with no legs.

Yes. Reach for the sky. Oh yeah, he gets, he gets wallowed out to the, you get sort of helped him. That's right. And he lost his legs in like an acrobatic plane in-in-jof. Yeah, that's right. In the early 30s, he loses his legs in a flying accident because he's an ace pilot and then. It saw that Monty Python sketch, right?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, him trying to headbutting with no arms or legs. Yeah, yeah. It's that spirit. Come on. It's that spirit. And he's, he's, he becomes, he's really famous.

He's famous before the war when he was an acrobatic pilot and then he's accident. So he's really famous and he's drawing the press to him. So Lee Mallory kind of uses him as an advocate for this big wing thing. Anyway, they fly these big wing sorties to the, out of ducks, and out of 12th group. And they're pretty ineffectual because one of the problems is they've all going to meet up. They're burning fuel. They're wasting time. And the Dowling system operates on, there are German planes,

are going to be here at that point, so we need to get to there, rather than we need to gather and join up. Have a look around. Have a look around. Because the whole point in the downing system is it's saving fuel and pilots. Yeah, yeah, yeah, in time.

And the idea is you shoot the Germans down before they get to London, rather than chase them back over the channel, which is what the Big Wing ends up doing. But basically, after the Battle of Britain, Lee Mallory is able to, is able to, dadding ends up fired. He's exhausted, he's sort of kind of out of puff.

But he's done an amazing job, right? He's done an amazing job. So, you know, arguably saved. the world. Apart from that, I think you have to go. Yeah, come on. And Park Park loses his job as well. Park gets punted over to

training command. And it's this kind of really weird moment. And there's a meeting where they do like a debrief, Battle of Britain debrief, where they all get up and they all say the big wing is, the big wing's the future and all this sort of stuff. And Park's like being ambushed.

Like what the fuck? And and Barders, Douglas Barter's there. and the most junior officer he's allowed to speak. And basically, they oust Dowding and Park and the people who've won the Battle of Britain. And then there's another guy called Shulte Douglas who's involved with this, who then becomes head of fighter command. Lee Mallory gets 11 group

and then proceeds to fight this campaign the next year where hundreds of aircraft are lost and pilots killed and it's a completely disaster. So it's consequential, this stupid argument. And how is it consequential? to do you mean that RF just become less... Well, the wrong people end up in charge. And so what happens is the next year,

Fires Command have got a show like Willing. Because they've... It's the new chief executive. It's the new head of competition of Channel 4, not doing any of that stuff. Yeah, made my mark. Made my legacy. 100% right.

So what they do is they do these fighter sweeps over the French coast, like what they call rhubarbes or circuses. And basically the Germans have radar and it's a reverse of the Battle of Britain. They see them coming. So they get up and they shoot them down. And...

pointless. Completely pointless. Right. Let's get to Battle of Britain Day, which Al's probably going to say is bollocks and nothing happened and the Germans just all decided to kill themselves and they never would have won. And it's all rubbish and we've got the better factories and this is really a factory race. So Al, this is a day. I don't know why.

She's going to summarize me like that. Sorry, yeah. So this is the day that, now at this point the Germans have all. already started bombing London. Yeah. But this is the last... Maximum effort. The last proper day

where the fighters hold them off. This is the last... This is, I guess, it's Leach and Stokes. Yeah. The final partnership that sees them over the line.

So tell us about Battle of Britain day. This is the final bit of the Battle of Britain where we decisively win. Yeah. Or do we? Yeah. Well, basically,

it's the last big proper daylight effort by the Germans bombing London. Yeah. It's not working. I think they sent sort of 120 bombers in the morning and then kind of another 100 in the afternoon. Yeah.

And they're met and shot down and dealt with and that's kind of it. So unlike the podcast I listened to, which was it all hinged on this. Suddenly there's a huge squadron of planes over the people are terrified. They're killing their dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, I mean, but bollocks, fuck off.

No, no, no, but basically, basically, whatever the fluff are offer, fighter commander essentially has an answer. Yeah. And so, but this then, but then the problem is, is the Germans do, think, well, this daylight thing is working. So they switch to night bombing, and we have nothing.

No, can't see the aircraft at night. Have no night fighters, nothing. And that's when the Blitz, the Blitz really bites. It's because we've got no answer to it. And we're going to talk about the Blitz in our next episode. Yes. Al, he's going to stick around. Yeah, why not?

Thank you so much. It's been such an education. It genuinely has. He's going to tell us about how the Blitz was bollocks, actually. and it was all rubbish and it was just some just dropping some conquers on us and we'll find

the Royal's gonna win you're saying the real blitz to Ziz Khan being elected is Ulez is the real blitz It's done more Darin's to London than the Nazis

The real blitz spirit is those men who they tear down LTN cameras and they're graffiti Ulez signs that episode's already on the Patreon

where for three pounds a month you can get instant access no ads you can exchange ideas with other people that have marketplace for

Nizmoorabili and ideas Fodora's all sorts If not we'll see you for the next part where we will discuss the Blitz with Al Murray See you then Goodbye

Goodbye