Fin vs History - No Bacon, No Beer, Loads and Loads of Gear | Dionysus & The Ancient Gods of Wine

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

Get The White Hot Lawn Mower® 5.0 Ultra for 15% OFF with code FIN15 at Manscaped.com! #manscapedpartner From Georgia to Jesus via Goat Orgies, it turns out wine wasn’t always a boring Christian drink The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon https://www.patreon.com/fintaylor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Td Bank knows that running a small business is a journey, from startup to growing and managing your business. That's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs. No matter the stage of business you're in, visit td.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a TD small business banking account manager. Welcome back to Finn versus history next to me as Horatio Gould. Read, red wine. Today we're talking about wine. That's not the noise that your wife makes when you ask to put this podcast on in the car. That's whinge.

That's not the history of winching. It's not right wing or white wind. No. White winch is definitely bonus. are significant others. Yes. We will be doing the suffragettes at some point.

But not today. Not today. And then Red Wind, we will be doing the genocide of the network. Yep. And they won't stop complaining about it. Red Winge.

What about Fizzy Winge? What's that? I don't know what Fizzy Wings. Gay rights. That's the AIDS crisis. Orange Winge is, I guess, is that like the boxing day tsunami

holiday makers? Yeah, I suppose. Oh, that was a big. Yeah. Was it? Blush skins. Yeah. Natural whinge.

Anyway, listen, that's all to come. Lots to look forward to. But this is the history of wine. Are you a wine drinker? Yeah, obviously I'm a wine drink. Do you wine ponder club? Sorry? Do you want wine?

I don't drink tonic wine. No. No. But do you know what whining? You know what whining is. I know what whining is. Yeah, explain to... Basically, you're rubbing your bottom against the person behind you.

So nothing Hill Carnival, you go... Dirty, dirty poo. It doesn't have to be dirty. It doesn't have to be a... a dutty, a dutty button. Right, a clean,

a clean whine. You know, Notting Hill Carnival, you know, when they're basically, yeah. I'm aware of it. Are you playing Notting Hill Carnival this year?

I'm not. I haven't got that call. No. It's not got the call yet. Still waiting by the phone to be asked to do Notting Hill Carnival. This is a disgrace. It'd be quite funny to me, get me up in my accents.

Yeah, so when you wine, it's like you're twirking. So when a woman twerkes on a man's knob It's twerking basically, yeah It's twerking but to music Yeah And you can do it at any sort of function

You can do it at a wedding Any function? Yeah, any function I'd refute that I've been to several functions Where you couldn't wine pondercock No, yeah Wine Pondicokey

I mean this weekend You were at Glastonbury Yeah It was my daughter's fourth birthday party There was no whining Bonda cock there Yeah Although Kett Mandy Pills

There's someone going around With a bucket hat I mean The toilets The toilets The toilets would have been quite similar, I imagine. And then also, weirdly, the princess entertainment that we bought at one point started chanting death to the IDF. Really?

Yeah, it was quite a weird. It's weird that she said that, Elsa from Frozen, virulently, virulently anti-Israel. Anyway, today is the history of wine. This episode, we will be dealing with wine's ancient origins, terrifying. We will be going back further than we've ever gone. How long have there been drunk wine mums? Yeah. Laying it all out.

This is interesting. Saying too much about your cousins and the actual father is. Next episode will be with the gayest straight man I know, Tom Gilby. So posh is gay. So posh, he's gay. He will be coming in to fruit the studio up. Give it a woman's touch. He's a fruit.

He's a fruit. And he loves fermented fruit. He'll be in to talk about wine the last 500 years. One of the, I think probably still one of the audience's favorite, for the internet guests. And it's the closest we're going to be to a female guest will be a male sommelier.

We've had Daniel Sloss. That was pushing it a lot. Gilby will be in to talk about the last 500 years of wine. In prison, he'd do. He'd do very well. Or very badly, depending on. He'd be everyone's prison.

I mean, you'd probably be making prison wine. Prison wine's a thing, isn't it? It's true. Prison wine, don't you brew it in the toilet? I would be, giving up on wine, I'd go for other beverages if I was in prison. I just drank water, I think. I think that's part of the punishment, isn't it?

I think you stop fighting against the dying of the light. Brewing wine and toilets. I think it's called Hooch. They make Hooch. Yeah. Well, I don't know. They talk about, they must discuss good batches, bad batches. Oh, no, no. It's a process called Pruno, which is a type of homemade fruit wine. Yeah. Often when I'm drinking like alcoholic beverages

that are based on fruit, I try and forget that they're made a fruit because you don't want to remember that it's just fruit juice, right? You're trying to elevate it. But for me, it's a toilet. that's the issue here. I don't mind that it's fruit. For me, it's the brood, not just any toilet,

a prison toilet. And I think... Well, it's flushed beforehand, right? You hope so, but again, these people are criminals. They don't follow society's laws. So, who knows how they're using a toilet?

What's it called a never-ending stew? What's the... What's the... Oh, you're like... What are those casserole dishes called in, in, like, Jamaican communities, they have these, like a clay pot. They have a thing they don't wash.

And it's because it adds to the... flavor yeah that's a toilet it's a perpetual it's never been flushed it's never been flushed and it makes the best prison wine anyway this is not this is not the history of prisoners shits again we will we will get to the suffragettes at some point this is the story of wine now terrifyingly for me we are going back to 6,000 bc Christ, I'm going excited. What, you're getting very excited, calm down. Now, wine, they think people discover wine, or wine is discovered, when people are monkeys,

Uga Booger time, and the Uga Boogas, they stumble across a plum, a rotten plum, and they eat it, and then they suddenly, they go fucking crazy, and they're like, well, those rotten plums are actually better than the actual, than ripe plums. That's how they discover boots. Okay. So then, you know, the first female monkey eats a rotten plum and then it's carlage. Right. She's getting the plastic dick things out.

She's calling her husband, you never blah, blah, blah, you know all that. And so in the year, they think in 6,000 BC, that's 8,000 years ago. So the plum had rotted and fermented alcohol within itself. Yes, right, right, right. So the juice was alcoholic. Right. So in the south. And it was a Georgian, that makes sense.

Well, this south caucuses. My dad's many ex-girlfriends have been Georgian. Is your dad sort of done a sex tour of the Soviet Union? Yeah, to be fair, he's been all over. Yeah. He has been done China. He's done Ukraine. Right.

Georgia, Panama. Wow. Yeah, he has been all over as long as they're incredibly thin. He does think fatness and women is a sin that should be punished. Right. Okay. So it's like a sort of, yeah, anorexic Eurovision. Yes, 100%.

Yeah, yeah. That's his absolute favour. Well, it's good that someone's still flying that fag. Yeah. Flat. Christ. Flying that flag? Oh my God.

I meant flag. Sorry, we're talking about... We're talking about wine. So, sorry. That was a Freudian slip. She did try to kill him with a kitchen knife. The Georgian? Yes.

Christ. Yeah. Anyway, we are in the South Caucasus eight thousand years ago. Yeah. Well, Caucasus, that's where Caucasian comes from. Is it? Yeah, so the white people, apparently, they first came from... This is Patient Zero for whinus.

Wow. I don't know what the fuck happened. So that's nice. That's nice. The esteemed white man drinking wine starts in the beginning of this. And now those people look down on the Georgians. Yes, of course. Well, so this is what's funny is that in Georgia and in the South Corkas, people discover that grapes could ferment naturally.

And they start brewing wine. They start getting their horrible Georgian feet involved, stomping on grapes. They store the juice in these, what's called a cferris, which is a big sort of clay. jar underground that they bake into the earth, which allows fermentation. And they have found early residue of wine in caves

in Armenia, Georgia, this kind of now it's also quite funny that wine would start here. This is old as fuck though, six thousand. Old as fuck. It's the oldest we've ever been on the podcast. 8,000 years ago. Because this is around the time of the first city ever. So what then happens is that the wine

gets put into barrels and travels on these boats down Is it the Tigris and the Euphrates? Yeah, that's the... Yeah. Saddam's... And that's where kind of the birth civilization is sort of in that sort of... If you look at it on the map, the Tigris and the Euphrates, that little bit, it's sort of like a fanny.

Right. It's the reason why civilization started there. The Fertile Crescent. It's the fertile crescent. It is a wet, fertile, dank little patch where it all sort of comes out. I've just remembered, because we were talking about... Gastonbury before we start recording. The first time I went to Glastonbury,

I was stood behind someone in the crowd, and they had a tattoo on the back of their neck, and it said, I'm going to fuck London in the pussy. And I still think about that sometimes. But it was on the back of the neck. You don't know if there was more, right? You only saw the top of it. No, they were topless.

Oh, okay, fine. That's the whole tattoo. I'm going to fuck London in the pussy. Right. Where is London's pussy? That's a good question. Bank? Is it bank?

No, bank's not the pussy. pussy. What's the most connected bit, isn't it? No, I wouldn't, yeah,

I don't know if that's the pussy. Wapping? Wapping? Wapping? Yeah. Why is Wipping London's pussy? No, no,

it's the, Brixston's the pussy. Surely Brix is the asshole. Come on. Brickson's not the pussy. Well, London's given birth

so it's the same thing, right? It's sort of that whole band Brickson and Clappum. Brickston to Peckham. Camberwell. I don't know where London's pussy is.

Let us know in the comments where you think London's pussy is. I guess it's the bit of London. Or you could say the Thames barrier that could be the

pussy. Yeah, anyway. This episode of Finn versus history is sponsored by Manscaped.

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So we're in Georgia 8,000 years ago, and the wine travels down to nowadays Iraq. What are the first cities called? The big cities, UR. Yeah. Urukura. And Babylon, or is that been mythical? Yeah, no, Babylon's real. That's coming around this time as well.

Right. And slightly later, but yeah. So wine has basically been around as long as people have been in cities. Yeah. So they had wine and beer at this time as well because beer was, is just as old. Yes, it is. It was more popular at the time. And mead and the Chinese are doing stuff with plums and rice.

Yeah. Rice wine. Drinking rice wine. Rubbish. Rubbish. Absolutely rubbish. Chinese are doing something absolutely rubbish, as usual. Now, wine is incredibly important and sophisticated in Egypt, obviously.

Egypt's the main start of everything. Everything that's invented, really, gets done by the Egyptians. Well, they get the credit for most. Yeah. But really what we need to get to, I really am very uncomfortable. Yeah, I can see. We're racing through this. Yeah.

Let's get to ancient Greece. Because this is where we're going to start. We're going to focus most of this podcast episode. Tom Jolby probably would fit right in. Gilby would be lorded in ancient Greece as the straightest man they'd ever seen Ancient Greece is at this point Again, this is 2,000 years ago

No, no more than that When's ancient Greece? Ancient Greece would be 4,500 years ago Dizzying and the plastic chair is not around No She's never invented plastic No Which was in the 20th century plastic

Something like that So they haven't sat down yet Yeah Would you like to place When does the start? Charlie, find out when ancient Greece starts, just so we can place this for the thickos that are listening. Yeah.

The thickos that don't drink wine. Yeah, winos. Yeah, they don't drink wine. So the idea of a wino, that's an alky, right? Yes. But a lot of the time, they're not drinking wine, aren't they? No, it's a posh wino. Oh, right.

So it's a posh alcoholic. Gilby's a wino. Right, right. My dad's a wino. Your dad's a wino. Yeah. Red trouser, but like the key to a wino is that you're just as much of an alcoholic, but you have a roof over your head rather than a bridge.

Yeah. I think if you're drinking spirits out of a bag, you're not a wino. Ancient Greece begins sort of around 1,200. Christ. Well, no, 1200 before Christ. Okay, so would you like to place this with your ancient? 1,200 BC? Please.

Right. Well, this is after the invention of the helmet. Just verify that, Charlie. No, it's definitely before the helmet. 3,000 BC. Thank you very much. Well, there you go.

And before, um, Diana should have worn a helmet in that crash. That's what it said in the autopsy. This would have been fine if you were wearing your helmet. Um,

I think all princesses should wear big helmets. She should have been walking out like a, like a deliveroo driver. Yeah, with a big thing on her back. Big helmet. Um, so Dionysus is the Greek god

of several things. He's a god of wine, but he's also the god of partying, yeah. Festival's release. Yeah, release. He's the god of release. Yeah. So he's kind of the god of come. He's the god of come. There's a god of sex, but there's a god

of love. Yes. He's the god of come. Yeah, he's the come god. But is release also shitting? I guess so. Is it just kind of letting anything go? Yeah. I'm not sure it's like a... Well, to be honest, if you think about it, is he's sort of like a P. Diddy-like figure, Dionysus, right?

Yes, yeah. You know, the free coughs? Were you following the Diddy trial? No, I've not. What's the free cough? So, like, a free cough, what Diddy would do is he'd get his girlfriend and maybe male and female prostitutes and sort of force them to do sex acts for about four days in a row covered in baby oil.

Yes. And he'd watch and he'd call it free coughs. Free coughs. Right. Like having a free cough. Oh, freak off? Yeah. Sorry, I thought you were saying three coughs.

I can't be. A free cough. Right, okay. So it's very Dionysus sort of vibe, I imagine. Complete debauchery. So Dionysus becomes this figure for madness and ecstasy and release, which, yeah, as we say, could be shitting, could be, I don't know, sort of engineering term, but an analogy. But mainly it's about the release you feel from your boring sort of mundane life by having a glass of wine.

Yeah. So he, let's deal with the origin myth of Dionysus. He's son of Zeus as all the gods are basically.

Yeah. There's different levels and tears, right? Yeah. So there's the big 12. Yes.

And some of them are sons of Zeus. And he's often called the 13th one. Is he? Yeah. So Zeus,

his dad, fucks the mortal princess Semeli. He, yeah. Zeus, unbelievably horny.

The horniest god Yeah. Yeah. He's got a wife. He's always dressing up I mean if we'd look back at this now

it's quite problematic yes he retends to be mortals just so you can fuck whoever he wants so it's a bit like Tom Cruise with a Mission Impossible mask

yeah raping people and then being like oh yeah you're my husband yeah exactly well to be honest real bad man

Zeus 23 yeah 23 babies 22 baby mothers um uh Zeus is real bad man and he fucks this woman

semily and so hearer Zeus's wife hears about this gets angry again this is not the history of whining but she then forces Semile

to see Zeus's real form and seeing that like the light from it basically makes her head explode or something right what Indiana Jones melt in the face yeah it's that it's like she just explodes because Zeus is so

what gorgeous ugly no he's a good look of chap I reckon He's just so ripped that her head explodes. Fine. But she is pregnant with dynosis. Right. So what Zeus does is he takes the fetus and soes it into his thigh.

And then when the fetus... You're right, mate. When the fetus is ready to be delivered, I don't know how it's sustained in his thigh. If you took a baby out like about a day before it's meant to be born and you put it in your tummy or your bum, What would happen? Would it die?

Would it be alright? If you put it in your bum? If you took a baby out. But there's lots of premature birth. I mean, my daughter was born seven weeks premature. Yeah. She went into an incubator and not my bum. Sorry, doctor, sorry, just before you put her in the end.

She has an extra couple of weeks. Don't worry. I've got a hot oven here. Yes, neonatal units are, I don't think they go in any. Your baby's don't go on anyone's bum I think we can safely say That you know This is probably bollocks

What happened But this is the story of the Greeks Tell each other That he soes the baby into the thigh And then he's born as Dionysus So it's the twice born God How does it? What pussy does he come out of Dionysus?

Well Zeus's thigh pussy The thigh brow All right So I guess it's like it's another thing It's like a Caesarian But in the thigh So Zeus gives birth No, I think he just cuts him out.

Carrin. What? Disgusting. Anyway. Anyway. Sorry, we must return to the Glastonbury of the ancient world. Dionysus. So, yeah, so he's born out of Zeus's thigh.

Yeah. Thigh pussy. Thussey. Zeus is thussy. Zeus is thick, thigh, stinking thigh pussy. I guess it's the outer thigh rather than the inner thigh. Well, I don't know. Who knows?

He doesn't, like Charlie suggests, go and live in Zeus's bum for a bit. and so he's kind of this outsider figure so what happens is that this cult starts to emerge of his followers where it's kind of upside downland right so it's like women and slaves and you know the

well it's blasphemy almost exactly the oppressed of Greek society they start really buying into Dionysus because he's like the outsider god and they're outsiders and they start this ritualistic or geastic filth this cult of Dionysus

where they all drink wine which at this point is quite weak as we'd understand it Well do you get it be closer to natural wine Well natural wines Natural wine they're taking out all of the chemicals and stuff Well there's no chemicals at this point It's fucking tastes awful

It does taste bad It's my big thing that I cannot understand Chemicals makes wine delicious I love normal wine Yeah I think you've nailed it I think I'd rather have prison wine The perpetual stew prison wine natural wine

and what's amazing if you go to like a really like hip natural wine bar they all have a million different natural wines they'll take your

fucking tarot reading yeah they will like their eyes roll to the back of the head and they'll find the perfect one that matches you and it still tastes like disgusting caca poohoo sour

awful it just tastes like dirt I'd rather have lambrini absolutely I think my prediction 10 years time everyone's gonna be like what the fuck that was rubbish that whole time I don't know why we were pretending

that was good what's difference between natural wine and normal wine Well we'll ask Gilby when he comes on But it's like something about There's less dirt and poo in Yeah basically And you can fucking taste it

Yeah they leave the poo in Basically I think there's a lot of pesticides To stop fucking bugs Fucking your grapes And they like let the bugs So it's quite weak wine What the ancient Greeks are drinking But obviously it's blowing their head open

Because they don't know You don't know about whiskey or anything Yeah And these underlings These slaves these women these outsiders they are going into the hills and the forest and they're drinking this wine and they then

start doing mad shit. They them? They them. A lot of they them's there. They them are doing mad mad stuff. So they're all trying to conjure up this what they call ecstasis, which is ecstasy standing outside the self, trying

to destroy the self. It's interesting that ecstasy pills are still harking back to the Greek myth. Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting. So the mine ads are the particularly mad female followers of Dionysus. I think I've met for you. Yeah, they were probably all at Glass and Bree. They dance

frenetically and... Well, it says mine ads, brackets, raving ones. Yes. I don't know if that's like, if raving even comes from like... Yeah, I think it does. Agree thing. That is interesting. So, what they do is these things called sparagmos and omophager.

Sure. So this is where you get an animal and you tear it apart with your hands and then you eat the flesh. Right. That's the ritual of, that's what wine makes you do. Yeah. But the thing is, they're drinking weak wine.

Yeah. And their response is to rip apart an animal. That's what's so funny about it. I guess it hasn't been naturalized. You haven't been grown up where it's like, have a little drink of wine with supper. Your parents do it. Like, it's not.

Well, it's not French culture, is it? Yeah. Have a little wine with your Bavet stage. I mean, they're lightweights by the sounds of it. Yeah, they're all absolute lightweights. Imagine now, if I, a glass of peanut noir and then just got a dog and was like you know and the table full of people with red

trousers are like what on earth is that guy doing you know and then you think about wine pairing what you know what animal are you tearing apart that goes best with a yeah yeah an old goat with a fucking white would probably go best with a like a barolo a big Italian hearty Italian yeah you want a hearty you want and then I suppose you're to tear apart tear apart fish which would be very hard

because they'd be flapping about the one on a nice little shabbly with that. Probably a shably, yeah. Tear apart, a trout. How can you tear a fish apart? I wouldn't be able to get any leverage in the gills.

If I could manage to get my foot in a gill, and then just fucking... So there are these women in the woods in ancient Greece having, you know, basically, what is it, eight, it's like a Picardy breezer.

Right. And then... What's bottomless brunch, isn't it? It's the original bottomless brunch. You know the women who fell behind the sea? Yeah, this is what it is. Did you know what I'm talking about, Charlie?

Bottomless brunch, falls upside down. It takes them so long. So if you're listening, a woman has somehow gone so far down the back of a restaurant couch that it's taking... It's like a corner of a room.

It's a corner couch with a small space and she's gone so far. Do you know what this reminds me? It's only her legs are showing... Is that video... Is that video of the cow being winched out of the sinkhole?

That's what this reminds me of. Yeah, that's it. So this is what's going on in the forest. Yeah, this is what's going on the cult of Dionyses. The mine ads, they're having too much

Prosecco too early in the morning and they're going behind rocks. Oh, I don't understand the physics of it. It takes two men. It's really funny not knowing how she got there as well that you only see her ending up there.

Yeah. It'd be like us opening with my legs just there. Hang on. We can do it? Yeah We could open like that actually

Cards Right Anyway So that's what's happening in the woods These women are They're tearing apart Animals with their bare hands They're eating them

They're gorging on their flesh And so And there's maybe some sacrifice Going on as well And this sort of morphs into a Dionysia festival Which is devastatingly where theatre comes from Yes, no, this is what I learnt this. This is, so it's by the Parthenon in Greece

The theatre of Dionysus is where it all started And it was just this fucking crazy orgy, right? They used to have parades every year And every year it just got more and more theatrical, right? And at the end of the parade, it would kind of slowly turn into this sort of performance. performance, right? Because it was like a procession that ended at this,

the theatre of Dionysus before it was a theatre, right? And people would just end up watching this final thing and that thing slowly turned into what we know as theatre, basically. So theatre starts with an orgy? Yeah, it makes sense. Well, not really. I think I'd rather go to the West End and watch an orgy than most plays. I mean, yeah, I guess so.

So the word tragedy, they think, derives from Traggos, which is a goat. Right. So which may derive from a sort of sacrificial rituals to Dionysus. I guess what I find interesting is that Dionysus is this, it's this frenzy. Yeah. It's this frenzy of losing yourself of obliterating the ego of eating a fucking goat with your hands. Yeah. It ends up with being stuck in a boring theatre show.

Yeah. Drinking wine out of a plastic cup. Yeah. Watching the most boring thing ever. It's like, yeah, I guess it's a PC culture gone mad, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It's like, you know, it's like Channel 4.

Channel 4 used to have Ali G on it and now it's got some fucking, I don't know. But Virgin Island, I'm loving Virgin. Oh my God, I watched it last night. It's so good. Virgin Island, I would highly recommend. There's one really funny person of Virgin Island. Basically.

It looks just like Jeremy Fleon. It does look like Jeremy here. Basically, the premise of Virgin Island is there, they're shipping over. It's the opposite of Epstein's Island. Well, it's not actually. No, it's not at all. It's if the virgins were fucking.

It's the prequel to Epstein's Islands. Yeah. Basically, they ship a load of virgins onto an island, and there's all these sex experts, prostitutes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. These kind of really, like, central, horny, kind of like, I don't know, like hippie mummy.

Some of them are absolute smoke shows. Yeah, exactly. They're professional, you know, I don't know, boneranglers, I guess. Yeah. They're sort of like a snake charmer for virgins in a way. Yeah, they're sort of muff whispering. the men always funny every sex expert man wears three quarter lengths for some reason

and he looks like he does yoga every day there's just there's something they look like baristas all the men and they're all so yeah actually all of them are attractive which is astonishing they have to be you can't have a fucking ugly sex oh no thank you can i wait can i get a different person yeah do you know what it's actually i'd like to stay on to i'd have to keep my virginity actually anyway so all of the what is quite interesting about the show socially is you learn a lot about the barriers that a lot of people have to pass the virginity. A lot of it's like severe autism, they can't be touched.

There's like really psychological challenges a lot of these people have for just even getting those most basic social interactions. This one guy who's completely fine, he's super horny, and just hasn't had sex. It's just an absolute insult. So while everyone, it's like having these sex experts

learning how to just touch a woman's shoulder for the first time, he's just grabbing it, he just keeps trying to go further. He's just like, this is brilliant. Like, he's having no problems whatsoever. He's just like, yeah, I just want to fucking come. There's an amazing scene where him and the sex therapist take their clothes off.

That's him, number 12. Number 12. Zach, Zach's my fucking hero. They take their clothes off. And the woman goes, so how are you feeling? And he goes, bet you're feeling pretty intimidated on him. What is that, Zach? Yeah, yeah.

He's like the horniest in-cell sexually aggressive virgin. A sexually aggressive virgin. Virgin is such a funny characteristic. Look at the size of that. You can't handle that. He's never had sex. Yeah, it does feel like he's not a virgin and he's just blagged his way onto the show.

Just so he can shag all of these milves. Yeah. It's pretty funny. Absolutely. And he does look a lot like you're open to Jeremy Flynn. It looks like Jeremy Flynn. Shout out of Jerry, shout out of Jez. I haven't seen him for a while.

I didn't realize he'd gone to Virgin Ireland. But, anyway. Pretending to be a virgin. Right. So Dionysus, the cult of Dionysususus, these mad fuckers in the woods. which ends up being theatre is watered down. In the Roman times, this becomes Bacchus, which is sort of the other name for Dionysus,

what the Romans call it. Bacchus, the god of wine, he's often pictured with grapes. So Bacchus is Dionysus. Yeah, right, right. It's often pictured with grapes around his bunts. And again, much like in Greece, it's a sort of religion for outsiders, so women and slaves. But it gets, the Romans obviously run a much tighter ship.

They do run a much tighter ship. And they're like, we'll start. this fucking nonsense because they think that they're going to the woods to start conspiracies to overthrow the Roman Senate. So the Senate in 186, if you saw what was going on, I don't think they're organising much of a revolution. They're literally ripping birds apart with their hands and fucking each other. It's fine. It is Glastonbury. It is the, it's like all the politics of Glastonbury. I don't know why people get so upset about Glastonbury because what I go there is very politically charged. They've obviously got these huge like

broad slogans love peace of quality free every food stands free a different country but it's like you'd want that as opposed to like a right wing festival and it's also these people aren't going to organise anything that will change anything they can barely organize last morning but it's like it's a contained thing we just accept that's going to be the vibe because we're all escaping life we don't you don't want someone who's like well it's actually about really sensible fiscal policy over like a 20 year period I love that festival I love that festival it's like that's not why we're here. George Osborne's headline in the austerity stage.

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all the world has to offer through their own eyes. Light the path to a brighter future with stellar lenses for myopia control. Learn more at sloor.com and ask your family eye care professional for SLR Stellas lenses at your child's next visit. So, yeah, in 186, the Senate outlaws the Bacchanalian cult. But it then goes even madder, and so they realize they have to kind of regulate it. because it takes under state control. Okay.

But this is where enter Christianity. So if you're wondering, this all sounds quite intense for wine. Wine now is not the drink that we're talking about in the ancient Greek world. It's Christians that make wine boring. Right. Because what Christians do...

Well, Christians make paganism boring. They make everything boring. It just sort of... Yeah. It rounds off all of the edges. It just numbs that... The Roman Greek tradition, Christianity, just get all of that fucking shit off.

Roman's like, oh, we've got slaves. We're eating animals with our bare hands and Christians just numbs it all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're all slaves to Jesus. We're all slaves to a fucking bad old time. So whereas the Greeks are using wine to fuck each other relentlessly

and tear goats apart. Fair enough. The Christians go, let's have a sip of it and eat a biscuit and that's our day. That's me done for the day. Couldn't boss there anymore. get away from me so the Christians they are around in the time of augustus right uh augustus gloop augustus gloop the roman emperor could stop eating augustus gloop fell as a chocolate river and so but obviously

in in the jewish tradition there's a big tradition of drinking wine and sabbath yeah and like communing with god through this drink so i guess the the the christian relation of wine comes from the roman greek tradition right that's what i mean is that so it's the because the god the idea the pagan idea of wine is that the feelings you get from it is a spiritual experience and there's a god of wine that you're communing with and so I guess how Christianity just gets bits of every pagan god

they just take that idea of the link between... Well, Nietzsche and Jung the philosophers, they're obsessed with Dionysus because they think it's an archetype of like destroying the ego and destroying the self. So Dionysus... Are they for it? Is Nietzsche for it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nietzsche's like everyone

should just get cunted all the time. And by the way, Nietzsche should have been on Virgin Ireland. He talked to a big game for a guy who was basically cut out in a thruple. He travelled around Europe with a woman he really was in love with and she just fucked his best mate the whole time and they both abandoned him in Italy. And then Nietzsche lost

his mind. Get a picture of Nietzsche crazy Nietzsche. No one looks more actually like cartoon insane. Just went cross-eyed. He saw a horse die in a square. He was so moved by it that he lost his mind. He went cross-eyed, right? Couldn't speak for eight years. Then his sister, who was one of the most, I

really like his sister. His sister's one of the biggest cunts of all time. She then turned him to a tourist attraction and charge people to come look at, look how fuck my brother is. And then helped the Nazis turn his ideas into narcissism. You would be a nihilist if you went on a global cuck tour, saw a horse get killed,

and then went cross-eyed. You'd be like, what's the fucking point? Yeah, but Nietzsche and ideals are all about the power of the will. It's about imposing yourself in reality, shaping. It's like, lad, you couldn't even oppose yourself. on the woman you fancy. So, yeah, but the idea is that when you drink a glass of wine, you're drinking

Dionysus, you are drinking the god of wine. Right. So that's where it comes from. You're communing with him. And Christians take this and it becomes much less than like an orgy and much more about a sacrament. And it's like, oh, we're drinking Jesus's blood. He died so that we could be really boring. Whatever it is. He died to make sure that we're all really boring.

He died so that we could drink tea and eat cake on a Sunday or a bunch of other miserable cunts. have you is your book club too interesting well come and join ours so little sippy sippy wine

yeah not you're not glugging the stuff it becomes a sippy wine yeah um and it becomes a sacrament I mean even is the wine that you drink a communion that's not even wine is it did always kind of annoy me

the bread and wine thing the bread thing because it is wafer just doesn't feel like bread no it should be should be like a little bit that's like we're eating Christ's fingernail yeah like it should be like uh I want his fucking thine

I want a forcatcher, a bit of a catcher. Yeah. Dip that in the wine. So wine is no longer really about ecstasy in Christian faith, is it? It's not about that. I mean, Christianity is not really about ecstasy. But what is it then? Is it just, because if it's not about ecstasy,

then why is wine become a central part of the Christian faith? Because it's about sacrament. It's about tasting a little bit of the salvation that you will get if you don't drink loads of it. Oh, so the sip symbolises. moderation. Maybe, but then it's about, it's Christ's blood. It's a metaphor for drinking his blood.

Yeah, I get that, but I think it's interesting that Christianity, which is often quite a morally, quite austere religion, having wine at the center of it seems quite strange. If it's not playing the idea of moderation.

I think it's just about remembering the sacrifice. Is that it? Well, yeah. It's not. It's as silly as wine, red, blood, red. I think it probably is that. drink blood so we drink one instead yeah yeah i think so all right fair enough i think it's probably is that but that's also why we have such an alcoholic culture in christian countries probably is that

why is still so integral to the center of the kind of main moral religion that you can't you're banning alcohol well you say that but then obviously greek and roman culture is the that's it's all stems from that where they were like going they were getting pissed and going to all bar one and fucking throwing chairs everywhere and shoving flares up their ass yeah it's christianity that makes it boring reading a book in the whole What do you think it should be? Should it be like water and cheese? What would be like a better...

Water and cheese, I don't think so. Water and cheese? Like, as opposed to the biscuit and wine? I mean a little cube of Manchago. I'd like a brandy and a mince pie. I'd actually like... Christmas. Christmas.

What's really nice. Nice dark rum with a cube of ice in it and then like dark chocolate on the side. I think that's like a nice little combo. If you're having a sip and a bite, I think that'd be really nice. I like really good... expensive wanky coffee and really shit chocolate.

Yeah, I'd like to be wanked off and have my earlose tickles. I just have to be sucked off at the altar, I reckon. The body of Christ. Ah! Yeah, can you do that? They did do that. They did do that. Yeah, actually, no, don't do that.

Have the body of Christ. It was definitely. The dick of Christ. Yeah. So wine in this, in this 2000 years, wine has gone from being this orgiastic, sort of filthy, community, ecstasy, blah, blah, blah. It's gone from being an ecstasy pill

to yeah and I sit down right and then we get to uh Islam right now because there's a huge obviously Judeo Hebrew Christian Greek Roman history of why it's still in the monotheistic tradition so Islam is still they still consider Jesus one of their yeah but so Islam obviously originates in the 7th century I think and but it arrives into an Arab world that is incredibly sinful in their in their eyes gambling,

boozing, they're loving it they're loving everything they're loving it they're drinking they're fighting they're gambling and so

initially the Islamic law says no don't be drunk when you pray and this slowly morphs into don't drink at all

because in heaven there'll be loads of wine Oh, is that still part of the cell? In heaven, there is no beer. That's why we drink it here. And when we are gone from here, all our friends will be drinking all the beer.

It's a Jamaican song. So ideologically, that's quite opposed. So that's the opposite of Islam, is the Jamaica. So the Jamaica is that there's no beer there. So we have to drink it here. Yeah. So when we were in Jamaica or we were in Barbados,

they sang that in like a sort of festival. They sing that song. And it just goes on and on and on. It's just those four lines. Yeah. What I find interesting about And then Islam goes In heaven

There is no quiz That's why we kill them here Less fun The vibes a bit more intense They don't sing it either They shout it It's quite aggy But what's funny is that

So this whole idea of Like wine and religion As a wine is like a release Communion with the Divine Islam is not like a religion of release No I guess It's a religion of unity

I guess Fundamentalist Muslims I suppose they're releasing limbs everywhere when they blow themselves up. I mean, it's a similar thing, isn't it? They're technically divorced from themselves. I mean, one of the hardest comes of all the time. Blowing yourself up, yeah.

But then you're getting to the 72 virgins. 72, Zaks. 72 virgins. I make you feel sexually intimidated. Imagine you got up there. It's just 72 of him. It's a virgin island up there. Well, that would be awful.

I mean, it's like a, you know, so many standups have done this. bit but it'd be so awful when you see virgins who can't you know there's a woman on there's just like I just can't the idea of penetration makes me feel sick I just terrified of it and then some come with the top not just fingers and she goes now I don't know what I love it yeah I absolutely love it yeah um how did you guys lose your your virginities I lost it when I was 15 I want to say 15 16 I was 15 I was terrible it was it was really I really struggled to get in there to I was I struggled to get it in there I was like for ages I was like there's something

going wrong here? I thought I thought I've got the biggest dick in the world I thought my dick is too big I can't have sex and the head the process was and it turns out

I just didn't realise you should put a second finger into just sort of or maybe she wasn't that into it I couldn't find the fanny because I thought it was just where the willier was you know how Fanny's like

a kind of a bit lower down on the body right yeah that I think that was it you had to go on you went front in yeah and I just like

you walked into it like a lemming I was like what's going on but then we did find it yeah we yeah the royal way yeah yeah no it was awful I mean terrible yeah grim it was not yeah it was not an enjoyable experience lovely I think I was just like did you enjoy your losing your virginity I was just very thankful yeah I was

I was thankful it wasn't enjoyable experience and there's always the idea of like what a lot of old people say is but make sure you have your first time special don't rush into it but for me I was like I don't want it to be special I need to rush into it because if I get this off my back it means that I can relax finally I get my uncle off my front right because is that because I think that's a brilliant joke actually but I don't even know what you I think you just threw that out there

without even just made sense of my head is it because he's only sucking me off because I'm a virgin and as soon as I've sullied myself he's like oh too old for me yeah that's good yeah

that's good one anyway the Quran gradually bans alcohol but it's a gradual thing it's not immediate so it's now obviously nothing to do with it they won't be having it

but what I find interesting I wonder I'd like to speak to an imam about this if we get an imam on the show what is... Do I know any imams? Hmm I think it's interesting how drunkenness is seen as a sin

and they almost view alcohol as even Yeah. But then if they're saying in the afterlife in paradise, you get loads of wine. Does it stop being a sin there? No, because what it says is in paradise, there's wine with none of the ill effects of... What the fuck's that? What, there's alcohol free beer? Heineken zero percent.

Oh, brilliant. Blow yourself up and you get 72 cans of Lucky Saint. No, but it's like you get no hangovers and you get... Schler. It's just loads of schler. If there's no hangovers and there's no, I don't know, I don't know, that's what it says in the Quran. What's the quote? Get the quote the Quran up where I said.

I didn't write it. Famously, I did not write the Quran. I am trying to get a publisher for my illustrated version of the Quran, which will work at some point. The Quran describes rivers of wine in paradise, but this wine is distinct from the alcoholic beverages forbidden on earth. it is described as quote delicious to the drinkers and will not cause them giddiness nor affect their sense so it is zero percent alcohol it's not really alcohol no yeah so it's sort of it quenches your thirst a bit but yeah you know it's great if you want to break from drinking and you hit six o'clock and you just need that fucking thing to just take you know so is Islam the only religion where you just get to heaven and you're just like shagging all all the time you know how it's like 72 virgins up there yeah I think right does everyone get 72 versions only the suicide bombers the Christian heavens just you get to me meet Jesus. It's like a sort of, it's just like a meeting greet. It's shit. No, because heaven, the idea of heaven is that isn't there the idea of that you've got your own personal heaven, whatever you think is, whatever your favorite thing is, that's kind of

what you get in heaven, I thought. Do the Sikhs? I want to fuck test every two suicide bombers. Do the Sikhs get to have sex in heaven? The Sikhs? Yeah. I don't know what the hell's going on there. States of consciousness experience in the life potentially after death. So they haven't even considered an afterlife in the Sikh. Anyway, so intoxication becomes punishable London, Sharia law, which Sadiq Khan has actually... Lashes, yep, so if you are caught drunk in central London, Sadiq will lash you. In London, Afghanistan, these are the new rules.

Yeah. Islamic civilization excelled in non-alcoholic luxury beverages, like sherbet rose water and coffee. Coffee, yeah, coffee is in Islamic. Which, of course, replaces wine culturally and like Shisha and stuff, that all arrives. Well, I've got a lot of Islamic friends at uni, and it's interesting how hard they went on, like, gear and stuff.

because the Quran, yeah, the Quran said nothing about fucking pills and ket and stuff like that. So it's all fair play. Because they're not writing, it's not like software updates. No. On the Quran where they've got their updating it. It's all the shit they had at the time. So yeah, you can just go hellful level with fucking, you know, gear. No bacon, no.

No bacon or beer. No bacon or beer. No bacon or beer, but loads of gear. That's all my most friends at uni. That's the chance. No bacon, no beer, but loads and loads of gear. That's what the stag does. So listen, I think we've come to the end of wine's story in the ancient world.

Much more interesting than I thought it would be actually. It is fascinating. To be fair, because I was at Glastomery, so I did no research for this. That was, yeah, much, there's a lot more out from that. So Dionysus kind of lives on through, as we said, the philosophy of like the ego death. And as we say, the Christians have made it very very important. What is the philosophy of the ego? death.

Which you should, it's healthy to kill the self. Right. And what is, the self, the self is a prison. So, I don't know,

get fucked up the ass every now and again. Yeah. Yeah. Is that what it is? If you have really intense drug experiences, you have an actual ego death.

But I don't really get that from drink. I don't get an ego death from drink. Have you ever had an ego death? I had, every time I do a balloon, especially at the Stone Circle, I view my whole life as if I'm watching someone else.

I say, thank God I'm not that guy. And this is, no, And this all happens in a minute and a half. It's the most profound trips I ever have. I'll have that. And then slowly, I go, what's happening?

I come back into focus. Oh, no. And I'm me. And I'm like, what I've been me? And I, because for me, it felt like I've watched my whole life in a minute and a half going like, fucking hell. I hate to be this. Oh, I'm me.

That's an ego day. Anyway, so that's the ancient history of wine from Georgia to Mohammed. in our next episode Tom Gilby the best smelling man I know He's so fruity He might step on him by the end To make him

We're going to be crushing him With our bare feet by the end My God when you'd like to see that I'd love it I'd pay money to see that He will be in to chat to us About wine's journey From the early modern period

Through to the present day And he's also going to stick around And do a Patreon That episode with Tom is already On our Patreon We're for three pounds a month It's one of the fastest growing patrons in the planet.

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We will see you next time for more wine. Cheers. Bye now. Thank you.