Fin vs History - OJ, Nicole, and Ron Place Ron Time | The People vs O.J. Simpson (Part 1/4)

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

This episode of Fin vs History is brought to you by Surfshark and Frive. Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code FVH for an extra 4 months at surfshark.com/fvh Go to frive.co.uk/fvh to get 45% off your first box. OJ Simpson: Cunning, thick & allegedly innocent. How did a boy raised by his drag queen dad become the biggest news story of the 90s? The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.   For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon  ⁠⁠patreon.com/fintaylor⁠  Link to our merch here: fumblerooskiproductions.com/store Chapters: 00:00: Nine Inch Knob  04:49: Gay Black Drag Queens   07:10: Cunning And Thick   13:24: NFL bollocks   17:55: Blinfluencer   21:35:  Charlie’s Fantasy   24:46: Bodypumping   28:28: White Appropriation   34:10: The Father’s Burden  37:27: Is gay contagious?   41:13: The Greg Wallace Defence  43:53: Nicole’s Frying Pan  46:20: Can I Have Some Friends?   50:21: Nicole’s In Brazil     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well, it's a big fortnight on Finn versus history. Horatio Gould joins me to dissect the life and trials of O.J. Simpson. Set the juice loose. Set him loose. This is what an epic story. I mean, a modern American tale. A great man. Yeah.

Who I feel a lot of affinity with, I must say. Because he gets away with everything. Yeah. And I'm sort of waiting for the day where I accidentally kidnapped someone in a hotel room in Vegas. for all this to happen to me. This is all ahead of me. It's all ahead of me. I feel such an affinity with him that my son's first two initials are OJ. A little private joke I play with myself. And when he took his first steps, I did say the juice is loose and my wife didn't know what I was saying about, but I laughed and I thought it was fun. Well, she better start laughing when I was, she

better start laughing. Also when he struggles to get his gloves on in the morning, it's quite hard to put a two-year-old's glove on. I find that relatable. I think, well, hang on. You saw the moment where he was struggling to get a glove on and you said, OJ, struggling to get a glove on again. That's what I thought. I thought it was funny. What a sweet man. My son is called Orenthal.

Orenthal. Which is a strange. Orenthal. Orenthal. Orenthal. I've never heard that name before or since. No. Orenthal, James Simpson.

This story that we, so I made you watch this document. Did you seen the documentary before? I hadn't seen the documentary before. And would you agree with me that's one of the best things ever made? Thank you. I mean, it's so long as well. Ten hours. It's completely justified.

Yes. Unlike a lot of... His life has so many segments. I look at Ojo Simpson, I think I've done nothing with my life. No. Yeah, exactly. Fuck me, he's lived a life.

He's lived five different lives. He's done everything. He's done it all. Or nothing. He's done none of it. Yeah. He did none of it. And it's like he lived one life,

lived it backwards. He's gone all, you know. Yeah. It's extraordinary. The ESPN did a nine, 10 hour documentary called... Yeah, it's like Ken Burns

on the Vietnam War, but it's just about OJ. It's more like a Steinbeck novel of like modern America where they weave all these threads and it culminates in this kind of... Then it becomes a Hunterst Thompson novel. It's crazy!

Yeah. And then in the end it's just porn by the end. It's just a copy of Nuts magazine. But it kind of culminates in this sort of courtroom race war. Anyway, it's an extraordinary... It could only happen in America. This is one of the most American stories you can have. I think it sort of says something about modern America.

Yeah. This would not happen in Britain or anywhere else. I don't know who the British OJ is. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's... Is it Wayne Rooney, shag and a granny? I don't know. I guess it is that.

I guess so. The trial of Wayne Rooney. No, do you know what it is? It's Killeen versus Rebecca. Oh, that's our... That's our OJ Simpson. That's how pathetic we are as a country. It says something about Britain.

It does. In the way that OJ says something about America. Yes. I suppose the equivalent is if David Beckham brutally murdered poshospice, allegedly. And he wrote a book called If I did it. Yeah. Charlie, what...

You've just Googled OJ Simpson naked. Apparently he's got a nine inch knob. Which does make a lot of sense. Charlie's just showing us a picture of... That's not his knot. That's been blurred out, though. There's a long blur. That's an incredibly long blur. He's in good Nick, though, from that photo. Polaroid. Very good-looking guy.

That's a young O.J. Simpson. And I think this is a cautionary tale about the dangers of having a massive knob. It can go to your head. Yeah, it really does. You know, and I think we should be looking at everyone with this sort of knob suspiciously of what they're capable of. Yes. Or what they think they're entitled to. That's his knob.

So you've just unblurred, have you? Yeah. There's a lot of things Charlie doesn't do quickly. And he's just, of his own volition, download some software to unblur OJ Simpson's knob for us. He looks brilliant. He does look at a very good, he's a professional athlete at this point.

But do you think in the way that, how did this guy come from the projects of San Francisco to become the most famous man in the world? I think it's because he was just gifted with this extraordinarily big knob. And now he just thinks that anything he does will work out. And this is, yeah,

it's the, it's the Greek tragedy. It's a Greek tragedy. It is a Greek tragedy. It is Icarus with a big knob. His knob got too close to the sun? Yeah, yeah. Right, okay.

It is, it is a Greek tragedy? Is it better to have a tiny knob and just keep your head down? Yeah, I think so. Well, I just think is more like... I think you know your place. You know your place. When you look down and you can barely see it over your tummy and you go, yeah, well, I'm not a big deal, I guess.

I guess I'll, you know... You know what? I'll leave my wife's neck alone. If I have it, if I get... If I end up retiring with a pension, it's a good life. You know, pension security is not... I'll be grateful for it. Pension security is not to be sniffed at

for a man with this smaller cog. Get a good job. Get a pension. Retire happy. Travel a bit in the old age. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.

Probably not. A cruise would be nice. Evan on a cruise has got a tiny dick. I'll say that now. Anyway. Ornthal. Oronthal. Oronthal.

I imagine that's what his mother said to him when he was, was playing in a yard. Oronthol! Oh,thol! Yeah. So Orenthol, James Simpson, was born on the 9th of July, 1947 in San Francisco, California. Now, his mother, Eunice, raised him pretty much by himself because it was a very poor era

of San Francisco. And his dad, and I did not really know this. Which is actually quite a big part. Huge part of the psychological makeup. His dad, Jimmy, left the family when O.J. was very young because he was a prominent drag queen. who later dies of AIDS in 1986. Yeah.

Astonishing. Yep. So you have a man who is blessed with a massive hog and cursed with a drag queen father. Yeah. The psychology of that is surely at play here. You know, he's angry at his dad. Because this is the story of like, I don't know,

black success in America coming from the projects is rarely this is the dad. Yeah. This isn't the usual tale. No. That's very rare for the psychology. Very rare. like a gay black

drag queen Sam Fran Dad. There's probably no more dangerous type of person to be than a black drag queen in the fucking 70s in America. What do you mean by dangerous?

As in black people's homophobia. Right, right, right, right. You know, white people... You don't mean a dangerous to society. Sorry, no. No, no, I did not mean that. We've got to stop

these gay black drag queens. O.J. Simpson's father, that his drag name was, quote, Mama Simpson. Fuck me. Only in America. Jimmy Simpson, Mama Simpson, is a drag queen who leaves the family early doors. And in the documentary,

the stories of his friends, you know, age kind of 9, 10, they go to his dad's house. And he answers the door in a little sort of silk kimono with another bloke in the back. Yes. And, you know,

in the, that would be, what, the late 50s, maybe, mid-50s? Is the guy telling the story the guy with the insanely raspy voice? OJ. OJ, man.

That's the thing when we grow up again, man. You're dead. You're dead again. So in the whole documentary, the talking heads are extraordinary. They have everyone. And I think it's a real, it's a real observation

on how badly white people age compared to black people. You're right. It's quite amazing that you can have a black person talking about events they apparently grew up in and it looks like they're 30 years old. If they're talking about something

that happened 70 years ago, then a white person was the same thing and they looked dead. But they also, when you get to Ron Goldman's father, who has maybe the shitters tash of all time, he looks, in the old footage, he looks fucked. Yeah, yeah. And then in the end, talking head, he's fucked.

So OJ didn't realize his name was Orenthol until he was in third grade. Right. That's a great pullback and reveal. It's sort of like you're adopted, but instead you're called Orenthal. Yeah. So, I mean, he's not a clever guy.

No. But as you say, he's a lucky guy. he's not a clever guy is he yeah well there's something to him he's got charisma and he's got great instincts to be fair my son doesn't know his name is arrymthol yeah anyway um

he had rickets as a child and so he was wearing braces on his legs until he was five but this used to be a classic thing of sports starts right Gorincha yeah the famous Brazilian winger from the maybe the 50s or 30s maybe he had knock knees he had rickets

and it meant that no one could really um he could sort of go one way his legs were going one way but he could run the other so bendy that people were like what the fuck's going on or he's split in half essentially so his feet goes there he's running that way he's running that way

so he joins a street gang called the Persian warriors yeah he's arrested three times and he is incarcerated in a youth jail but he marries young he marries a woman called Marguerite who describes OJ at school as being quote a really awful person

when she's saying this she's not saying this when she's married to it she was going out with OJ's friend Al Cowlings, who comes into the story later. And he basically just nicks his girlfriend. And then they stay mates. And this is a kind of theme throughout the story, is that he is, he doesn't, well,

allegedly he's not very nice to his family and the people closest to him. He's one of the greatest manipulators, because this is what I mean, he's not, he makes terrible mistakes and he is, can do very stupid thick things, but he clearly has an unbelievable way of manipulating people to do what he wants them to do.

He's got a huge dick. Yeah, I guess so. You don't need to be thinking. You don't need to think. All the blood has gone from his brain to this huge hog. And, you know, he doesn't need to think at all. No. This episode of Finnverse History is brought to you by Surf Shark.

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Well, that's my... Yeah, that's pretty on you. To be fair, it said men, women, disabled and AIDS. I misread that and I went into the AIDS one. That's fair enough. Yeah. It could happen to the best of us, but more often happens to the world. But if surfshableness...

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We run the FoxxRot Vagina Hotel and you get four extra months of Surf Shark. Don't let these online threats catch you off guard. So he's poor academically. There's that story about him and OJ, him and that friend getting caught doing something. They shouldn't. I forgot what they were doing. Maybe they were like. Oh, they're in the school, toilet.

They were like, they were all smoking. Maybe they were all smoking the toys or something. Or playing dice. Yeah. So they were gambling and then they got caught by a teacher and taken to the head master's office. All of them were going in there and then OJ pretended like he was dropping them off. Yeah. Anyway, I found these guys.

Found these guys doing it and then they fucked off. Yeah. And then they believed Ojo. So you're right. Maybe he has a kind of. So he's learned already. He's socially very clever. He's manipulative.

He's cunning. He's charismatic. He's cunning, but he's thick. Yeah. A weird combination. Very deadly combination. We come across. many different combinations of people, but cunning and thick

is a rare one. It is rare. And he's a rare individual historically. I don't know many people like OJ. He seems to, he seems to tick weird boxes. Much like Caitlin Jenner, who will also be talking about. They actually both are completely unique. Yes, we're doing a patron episode on Caitlin Jenner because the theme this fortnight is athletes who killed people. Caitlin Jenner famously killed someone with her car and also

she killed an athlete called Bruce. Anyway, we'll also be talking about... Two stories that could only happen in America. Only happen in America. We'll also be talking about Oscar Pistorius. Anyway, it's a big fortnight. Yeah. Red meat.

It's beef tartar all round. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. There will be some downside at some point. Yeah. This, enjoy it because... We'll have to do a juice cleanse soon. There'll be a juice cleanse of fucking Charlemagne at some point.

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happens here. Conditions apply. Visit rbc.com slash avion. So Ojo starts to gain fame as an athlete because he's very good at running. Yeah. He runs away from things. In 1967, he enrols in USC, the University of Southern California, which is in L.A., and he joins the American football team there as a running back. Now, obviously I don't watch American football. I made that very clear. I am British and I have a mortgage. I don't watch this fifth. You spend five days watching test cricket. Yes, exactly. I know where I'm born. I stay in my lane. Many of our fans will stay up all night in their chairs that have, you know, neck grips. They'll be watching travel pillows.

Yeah. I've made this very clear. Now, supposedly in that clip, for anyone who doesn't know when I went on the NFL show, apparently that guy, that presenter, was best man at one of OJ's later weddings. Later weddings. Later weddings. Crucially.

Yeah. The prestige of the weddings goes severely downhill. But supposedly that's why that man was so annoyed at my insistence on making OJ jokes throughout the broadcast. Anyway, USC is a predominantly white, socially conservative college. Yeah. And the campus is next to Watts, which is a sort of predominantly black neighborhood of L.A.,

which will come into the story. The big what riots in Watts in 65. But O.J. sort of becomes seduced by white society and starts to distance himself from African-American culture. Maybe he never felt that attached to it because his dad was a drag queen, which is not, you know, the center of black culture. Do you know what I mean? He already feels maybe slightly alienated. Or maybe his dad's drag character was white, so he thought he was white.

that that could be he was doing the half and half thing so maybe he felt you know what he's singing as a man and a woman white man black man oh I see is that sing you know when you cut you know you paint yourself half one thing

and then you do like a play to yourself like oh I see yeah so could have confused him if I was doing blackface is that a way of doing it I think it's half you only get 50% in trouble yes you get less in trouble

especially if the other half's being don't what are you doing don't dare you hey man yeah no come on that's and taste for. Yeah. Well, I imagine just growing up

in that home at a key, we're thinking Freudian, in a Freudian sense in a key age where a lot of this information is shaping who you are. Yes.

Seeing your dad, being a woman, a white guy, whatever, that probably messes with your whites, you know? Definitely. About your racial self-identity.

Now, at this time, the civil rights movement is kicking off. Yeah. The Black Panthers are around. But he kind of pulls away from that and he sort of goes into a white society.

sort of becomes this star within USC because college football is extraordinarily big deal and it's like the only equivalent I'm pretty thick about this. Yeah. So what is it? College football that it's, we don't have anything like that. The only thing we have is the boat race. Okay, yeah. Which is

not a big deal of store. No. The equivalent story is like fucking what, Matthew Pinson. If he was even in the college boat race, I imagine he was because of Lempiel or Steve Redgrave. Yeah. If got famous doing boat races

and then transition into doing movies because he was so famous from the boat race and then killed his wife allegedly. It's like its uni sports were as big as the Premier League basically. It's that, it's the boat race is the Premier League. And it's live! And it's the boat race. You imagine Super Sunday and it's just

fucking ten posh twats on the Thames? Because it's not a league below NFL. They're two separate leagues which are both as popular. It sounds like very the bollocks, to be honest. It is bollocks. It is bollocks. I mean, have you seen the size of college football?

They're bigger than Premier League. There's like 90,000 people. Why? Well, there's a lot of people in America. Sure they're just shit. I think there's like, I think it's because it's all youth, right? So they have to be at the uni. So it feels like maybe it's more exciting the way that it's drafted.

Well, no, I think connection to the college you went to. I think instead of, basically instead of NFL teams, professional ones, having a youth set up, like Premier League seems to, college football is the kind of breeding ground of professional athletes and then there's a thing called the draft But it's like the under 21 league then Yeah, it's all complete bollocks

But I mean we don't yeah I imagine someone's listed to this This is unbearable Yeah but the kind of person The kind of person that is can go fuck themselves Thank you as I've made clear very many times Get a job You are on record

Stop drinking monster Yeah I'm married You won't be Anyway So he's being pressured into sort of joining in the civil rights Because often on campus, I mean, I know it's a white uni,

but there's still be able to have been kind of imagined militant black students at this point. It's the 60s. The 60s. When asked why he's not going to join in the civil rights efforts, he says, I'm not black, I'm Oja. Which psychologically he is. Now I say that as well, I'm not black, I'm fit. Who's not black?

I'm white. But that's not what he's saying. No. He's not saying he's white. Yes. He's saying he's not black. Yeah. He's saying his personality, his persona.

I'm unique. His fame transcends race, which is. at this point, no one's does. And that's why he becomes such a star, is that he genuinely... He disconnects itself from the civil rights movement, basically. But he's also non-threatening to whites, in a way, ironically,

in a way that we will see. And I think the key, what I've learnt from the documentary, the key way to be non-threatening to whites, people are trying to do that, is wear Kashmir jumpers. Yes. I think just wear a Kashmir jumper, and I think you'll get away with a lot more.

I think you'll get less police harassment if you're wearing a tan cashmere jumper. Wearing a jumper where you put your sleeves over your hands and you kind of like... It's not threatening. Not threatening at all. Psychologically, he probably is an unbelievable sort of sociopathic narcissist, right? And so he only views things.

He can only view things through his own lens, right? He can't view anything collectively. No, he sees himself as bigger than the black struggle. He's bigger than anything, though. It's all him. And even the fact that he's such a good runner and when he does any other position he's not good

as long as it's individual I get the ball and run past everyone it works with that sort of focus So the reason he's so good at American football Which is obviously a stupid sport

Yeah Terrible to watch But OJ is a running back Which I believe is not that common In the game Where he's so good They just give the ball to him And he just fucking runs through everyone

So this is a college final game And it's between USC Which is and maybe the another college in LA or a San Francisco college anyway, it's a Derby as well, it's a derby match this is the famous run that we're watching now OJ runs fast and people

Is that it? That's literally it, that's what I mean Everyone goes mad for it But that's basically... Yeah, but then it is it because it's the 60s? You know, Stanley Matthews did one step over I guess so and half the crowd had a stroke. Charlie's just got on this is a rugby match, this is someone running through

I mean it's the same isn't it? It's just a bloke with hold your ball running it's not that impressive. Anyway, people go mad for him. He's so clearly the best college footballer of his age. And he's also running with the ball, which people don't do. So in 1969, he becomes the first black national spokesman for Chevrolet. He begins commentating on football games for ABC.

And I imagine black people are not getting any sort of brand deals. They're not the face of any sort of product. He's the first black influencer. Blin influencer. He's a blinflencer. ABC make him. take elocution lessons to suit their view of demographics better. So he's already being positioned towards white society as much as he is himself.

And in the same year, he is selected in the NFL draft to join the Buffalo Bills. Another problem with NFL is that they've got stupid names. It's like pro-evo English teams. Right, where the London Reds. Yeah, yeah. And just a Reds. Yeah. That's their actual...

Whereas... You have an old man who's a die-hard for the Buffalo Bills. Whereas county cricket. Yeah, it's esteemed as gentleman's game. Right, Hampshire. Hampshire, Sussex. Sorry. Way six.

Doesn't even exist anymore that county. The Buffalo Bills. It's a childish culture. Anyway, OJ gets a contract of the sort of equivalent of nearly $6 million over five years, which is the largest contract in pro sports in America at that point. Now, he doesn't like Buffalo. Buffalo's in the Midwest somewhere. Is it Michigan?

I think it's in New York State. It snows a lot. It's cold. Yeah, it's in New York. It's cold. And also in the first three seasons the coach makes him a receiver rather than a running back

so that's basically he has to run to catch the ball but he can't catch and he liked to LA because he liked the celebrity culture he felt like it was in part at the heart of everything in Buffalo he felt disconnected from it all

but then the team hires a new coach in 72 and the team starts to achieve success because they just give the guy with the big dick the ball and we'll win so for three years he was receiving and just he can't catch which is amazing to be the best athlete

in a sport where you have to catch and you can't catch because it's a stupid sport. It's as long as it's him on his own. Running. He's brilliant. Dodging tackles. Getting away with stuff.

Getting away with stuff. I mean, it's amazing. So this is when, and I think it's 1973, he reaches the height of his professional career where he beats Jimmy Brown's rushing record. Right. Fuck it, hell.

Sad sacks who, watch this. He ran the furthest. Yeah. So he's the first player to break 2,000 rushing yards in a season. He gets awarded MVP. He wins maybe the Heisman Trophy, which is, I guess, like the Ballin-Dor. If you're fat. Anyway, he's a big deal, and he beats the record.

You know, he's a big deal in NFL in the 73. Should we play 73? 73. Because the height of his professional sports career, 973. I'll tell you when this is, actually. Sorry, this is after Bruce before Caitlin. yes yeah

lovely Bruce is been born yeah Bruce has been born he's not been murdered by Caitlin

is that how they phrase it that's how I phrase alright we're dead naming isn't it yeah yeah

does the one murder the other I think so so would you want to put Caitlin on trial for the death of Bruce

yes I would I'd say I'd say what happened to Bruce where were you where were you on the night that Bruce

disappeared he went into a box and you came out explain that to me now in now in 1974 OJ signs a long-term deal to promote Hertz

renter car also to blazes at the moment Wilson is he getting pegged by Marcia he is getting pegged by Marcia yeah no 1974 no Heath's um

it's three day week I think yeah I don't think yeah this is 74 is the year that switched Oh you're right you're right Wilson like three times

Can you can we do an impression where you're Heath and he's pegging you as Marcy please no I don't want to do this again No, Charlie. Come on.

Stop trying these actouts where Finn rapes me. You're always pitching actouts that involve. Only bit producing yours. Right, let's do that again. But Finn, you're raping him and you're hating it. You're really hating it and you're loving it. Charlie, it's got nothing to do with the topic. Let's get that clean.

Right. We're talking about OJ Simpson in the NFL. No, no, you rape him and then we'll put it out as a clip. Be a good clip. Good clip. It's a good clip. No. It'll work on socials.

Rape him now. So in 1974, OJ signs a long-term deal to promote Hertz. I like Hertz. Yep. I used Hurtz quite recently. You can't drive? No, but I was with someone who did. Right.

Fucking rental cuck. When they talk about this in the documentary, this is amazing because they talk about how they want to convey speed. They want to convey speed of service. You get to the rental counter, you get your keys quickly. You get in the car. It's like hassle free. In the documentary, which is amazing.

This is the bit that drags them. The first two episodes, they could have been one episode, I think. Like, they do talk about Hertz for about 45 minutes. Yeah, because they got an interview with, the CEO of Hertz who loves the sound of his own voice. And also is a white man who's aged terribly. Yes, you're right. Yeah, he's got liver spots all in his age.

He's actually 43. But I found this quite interesting actually because the outfit is him running through an airport. Yeah. But they're like, in 1974, we can't have a black guy running through an airport and it not seemed threatening to a white audience. Yeah. So they then get white grannies to watch him go past and go, go, OJ, go. Yeah. It's the juice.

And they're like, the only way we can have. this as like a color neutral endorsement is if we have old sweet grannies chants and go juice you've got to balance that out yeah and hurts refrains from including other black people in scenes with him he's more than happy to do this he really just give a fuck about any of this stuff he's not precious about any of this stuff no now in 1978 he transfers to the san francisco 49ers um sounds like what it's ad you should do uh anyway at the time the context of this is that there's a lot of black Catholics are now standing up for civil rights, right? This is the famous Black Panther sign.

It's the glove. Another amazing irony in the story is that John Carlos and the other one are in the Mexico Olympics in 68, is it? And they do the Black Power Salutes where they lift up a closed fist glove with a leather glove. And OJ, again, this is Muhammad Ali speaking out. And they're trying to get OJ to come and help the civil rights movement, but he's not having any of it.

He's going absolutely not. And this is 74, this is coming to the end of the Vietnam War. Yeah. There's a lot of racial issues with conscription. But what's amazing is you wouldn't know any of that from the first two parts of the OJ documentary. What's extraordinary is that he is sort of apolitical. But in a way, you kind of skip a lot of America's problems

when you're just following OJ at this point. Yes. You're just kind of, you're running past them all. You think, what are you on about? What do you mean you're in rental car adverts? Yeah, it's great. As a people, you're clearly fine. Yeah.

now OJ transfers to the San Francisco 49ers but he has knee issues and he retires from football in 79 but he also retires because he's starting to get acting work and he from 1980s

this is when he's quite Beckham like right yes the big pivot wind down your career early so you can pivot into celebrity acting stuff like that from 1988 to 1994 he appears in all three naked gun films you forget he's in there often

when you go back you forget that OJ is there But it's also, it's funny, listening to the director talk about, he's like the only acting he was good for was naked gun. Because how, how hammy it was. Yeah. He was considered for the role of The Terminator,

but producers thought that he was too nice to be seen as a cold-blooded killer. Another role that he probably would be able to do because you're a robot. Yeah. That's why Schwarzenegger was good at it. I guess because Schwarzenegger is an actor. He's not an actor for the Terminator, is he?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Body-pumper? Bodybuilder. making it horny than it needs to be finn my wife has a class is David Lloyd called body pump

and I am I'm slightly threatened but she gets inflated yeah I thought you're going to the gym love what's going now he receives military training on how to use knives as a weapon

for a 1994 show called Frogman which has never aired because the pilots he's only made a pilot and then the trial comes out the murder happens

so Walter Brothers lose an estimated $14 million because they've made this pilot that they can't air because the lead in it may have stabbed someone. Is it making the link that his knife skills come from this? Possibly. Yeah. Yeah. So he

also does adverts for you know cowboy boots ham. It's an American story. Now I suppose there's another character in a story I guess we should talk about one of the murder victims. Ron Goldberg, no we should talk about Nicole Brown. Nicole Brown is a model maybe.

She's a waitress. No, she's a waitress. She's 18 years old. I think she's a waitress. But if she's a waitress in L.A., she'll probably have aspirations. Everyone in L.A. is either a model, porn star, whatever.

O.J. meets Nicole in 1977, and she's working as a waitress. She was 18, he was 30. This is all above board. Right. Nicole had been born in Germany. Plot! In 1959. but they moved to the US when she's young

and at this point OJ is still married to Marguerite and had three children we haven't heard about No He hasn't talked to that No Doesn't come into the story really No one of them dies And he's away

He was away and he really just bashes that off There's an interview he's asked about His kid drowning and he was like Well I wasn't there Yeah And so I'm OJ I'm kind of over that I'm OJ

No I'm OJ I'm not a father I'm not a father I'm not black I'm OJ I don't have a kid I'm OJ. Anyway, everyone... Was that the same house? Is that rocking him?

Yeah, yeah. That's the big mansion in L.A. Everyone in OJ's family has got a weird name. Orenthal, Marguerite, Mama Simpson. Yeah. So after their first date,

Nicole says that he had been forceful and ripped her jeans. Red flag. That's more of a third date thing, Orenthal. He'd also promised her to buy a car and an apartment. And he leaves Marguerite

for Nicole in 979. and they get married in 1985. Yeah. But they have two children together. Big society wedding. Everyone loves Nicole and O.J. This is like OK magazine. Hello.

And he's got this big mock Tudor mansion in Brentwood, which is one of the fanciest parts of L.A. And yeah, just all of the... Everyone's always hanging out at their home. It's a real social hub. Yeah. They're kind of like seen as the sort of perfect couple. It's Barry Moore.

Yeah. It's Epstein. You know. Yeah. What could go wrong? Yeah. It's just a pool part. I imagine there's like

Trump must have been knocking about No, there's photos of Trump Just type in Trump and OJ We're looking at photos of Trump Oh Trump The boys, OJ and Trump What sort of thing is Jack in there talking about? I reckon they're both saying

The M Word a lot Personally And they're both saying I'm not black Yeah Yeah, I'm not black I'm OJ I'm not black I'm Donald What are you on about? None of us are black OJ

But it is fun Is OJ the first And only black person to say That he doesn't see color? Yeah, that's interesting It's interesting, isn't it? Or since. Yeah.

A historical anomaly. Yeah. It's kind of amazing. It's almost cultural appropriation. For who? From white culture. From whites. Well, yeah, there's a lot of stuff.

Yeah. His jumpers, the way he plays golf. I'm actually livid about this. Yeah. Yeah, that's our sport. This episode is brought to you by fry. Five. It's like people who can't say three and they go free.

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Dot co. At UK slash FVH Fat, Vegan, Homo. And you will get 40% off your first box. Thrive, laugh, love. So they get married, but their relationship is sort of, of it's bad. Well, at the beginning it's good.

They're very into each other. And I don't think it's bad from the start. There's clearly like a lot of, they're very attracted to each other. And for the first couple of years, it seems like it's a good relationship, I think. Yeah, although there's, I mean, she's always saying,

she's letting little breadcrumbs about abuse and violent. And he's also... But to be fair, he does say, in his defence, that she got fat after the pregnancies. Yes. Yep.

So you got it here both sides of the... The guy always has a good defense. The gloves don't fit because your hands are too unfat. You never realize that their hands get fat when they get pregnant. It is astonishing. It's tough. And no one talks about it. No one talks about it.

So O'Dow's blindsided. It's the father's burden. The other thing they don't talk about is how uncomfortable the chairs are that you sit in when your wife is giving birth. Right. In the hospital, when you're waiting for it to give birth, they don't give you a little couch. They give you a horribly uncomfortable chair that you're forced to sleep in. And it ruins your back. and there's no social space for you to complain about it

because your wife has got a baby. Wait, do you think you were in more pain than her, potentially? Honestly, I'd say, I would like to be offered an epidural to go to sleep in that chair. Would you say maybe you'd rather have given birth than just to be on the more comfy chair? She had a fucking caesarian.

Anyway. Yeah, I probably would actually. Because you get to be on the bed as opposed to that shit. Right on. Flat on the bed. Also, just, any, if I felt, felt any bloated at all? Gone.

Gone. Gas, yeah? Did you ever kiss your wife's tummy before she gave birth? To sort of kiss your, like, kiss your kids on the head? Well, I listened to the, I listened to the, to the baby in the tummy and stuff. How was that for you? Sorry. What was that like?

Well, it was nice, it was exciting? Yeah. Was it as magic? Let's go back to the Rayback cat, shall we? It's two extremes, isn't it, Charlie, isn't it? A very, very invasive intimate question Or, no, rape him as an act out of him. Sort of split the difference, maybe, I reckon,

split the difference between the incredibly invasive questions. And trying to direct a rape fantasy of yours. Yeah, no, but no one talks about how uncomfortable the chairs are that fathers are meant to sit on. And, you know, if I have a political career after this podcast, it will be for Fathers for Justice. I will be bringing that back. Justice for Fathers' Back.

And OJ has a lot of kids, so he probably wasn't there, to be honest. If he wasn't dead, we'd love to have him as far as for justice for the spokesperson. I am very sad that he's, he, he was, we talked about it. He was probably the dream internet guest. Oh, my gosh. He was number. We would have flown everyone out there. Yeah, definitely.

Just just, yeah. And to be honest, I didn't think it would be possible. but then seeing the end of his career, he was doing anything. He was doing anything. All we had to do was say that we had some of his merch. And he probably would have come to us, to be honest. Anyway, so, as you said, Nicole gets fat during their pregnancies. And really, I think that's probable cause.

Why wasn't she on trial? Yes. Why was... The people versus Nicole. The score bet app here with trusted stats some real-time sports news. Yeah, hey, who should I take in the Boston game? Well, statistically speaking.

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and dedicated support from Staples experts who guide you on everything, from product selection and ordering to payment. Join today at staplesprofessional.ca and get expert solutions tailored to your business. That was easy. Your Honor, look at her hands. They're huge.

I married someone with fingers, and now she's got big sausages. And also, OJ was forced to sleep with other women because of it. Yes, and he quite rightly blames Nicole for his own affairs. He didn't want to do that. I don't want to be doing this. But you snooked him. Yes. What am I meant to do?

Completely backed into the corner. Your hands are too fat. That is, to be fair, that is Beast Mode, is blaming your wife for having your own affairs. I mean, that is real, you know. It's male motivation, isn't it? It is. It's not saying you want to do it. I'm just saying,

It's alpha grindset sort of mentality. Yeah. Have an affair. It's not your fault. It's hers. It's Bonnie Blue's mindset. Yes. Actually, it is.

Yeah. Anyway, so Nicole gets fat, but as we say, this is not the people versus Nicole's belly. Now, there is a history of domestic violence in the relationship. In 1985, the LAPD is called to Ojo's house because, and they find him shouting, holding a baseball bat, crying, a crying Nicole is sitting in the car. with their windshield smashed in. But we can't know what was going on. We don't know what was going on.

Okay? We can't know. This is, you know, you can try and put a picture together, but it will never be fully clear. You know, the man is just, I watched a video last night of a funny video of a man and his wife sleeping in bed and he was in full cricket whites and he was saying, how long can I shadow about in bed until my wife wakes up?

Right. It was a minute and a half. A minute and a half of him just playing strokes. Okay, what's your point? What's your point? I'm just saying it could have been a funny game. Before TikTok. Right.

You know, maybe they're making a funny home video. Yeah. And also him having to shout that's not good for your voice. So Nicole probably shouldn't have gotten to that state.

And then she's put a lot of weight on as well. We don't know what was going on. And maybe that's why the windshield smashed. She's too fat. She can't fit in the car. She's tried to get in the car, but she's too big and she's smashed the windshield

from me, from the outside somehow. OJ's just innocently shadow batting outside. Anyway, Christmas, 1988. writes in her diary that while they were in Hawaii, she was beaten badly by OJ after she had let a gay man kiss their baby at a restaurant. Now, I remember this from a documentary. Yeah. So it's clearly something to do with his mama Simpson, right? Yes, clearly. And I suppose you're now getting a sense of this man that had been, you know, all... He thinks gay is contagious, clearly.

Again, he's cunning, but he's thick. Yeah. Well, he's not a scientist, and you know, you got neither are we? Yeah, so you've got to do your own research. We don't know. this could have been a sleeper agent trying to make his son gay. We don't know. Gays do make good spies, in my head at least. They're in a restaurant in Hawaii, and a gay man comes over and I think kisses the baby, you know, quite a gay thing to do, I guess,

just out of nowhere. Yeah. I don't know if I would kiss another person's baby. Yeah, and I think... Like a stranger at a restaurant. Gay guys, they feel, they feel entitled to kiss anyone, really. because they're gay. They're quite kissy-kissy,

aren't they? Yeah, women, they're honking on their breast doesn't matter. Yeah, I guess so. The camp you are, the more you can kind of harass women, do you know what I mean? It's true, actually.

Yeah. There's nothing more deadly than a very, very, very camp straight man. Yeah. Because he's getting away with a lot of honking. What you say? Doing the OJ trial. Yeah.

The real problem. But he's not camp straight guy. But he's not camp. No, I know. That's why it's funny, but weird. His dad is the real enemy in this story. Mama Simpson.

Yeah. I suppose we're getting a sense of this man who was so clean cut. You know, he has this amazing smile, incredibly chiseled features. He's got everything. He's got everything. But there's clearly, you're getting a sense of the effort it takes him to present to white society. To mask. To mask.

To code switch. What is this podcast? What terms are we using? I've heard these terms by annoying people on the internet. I don't know what they mean. What is, do you code? Yeah, is OJ, can we do a defensive of OJ that he was at the exhaustion he had, masking? He's autistic and he had a big knob.

It's the Greg Wallace defense. He was autistic and he took so much energy masking. When he had a ball and he was running, he was hyper-focused. He was in a flow state. But when he didn't have that ball, you know, that's when he has to mask. And it takes so much effort to mask not being a murderer. That frustration has to come out somewhere.

It has to come out somewhere. Yeah, but you're getting a. sense of the rage that maybe he feels. Envy, jealousy, hatred of Nicole. I wonder if there's any resentment of her whiteness maybe, potentially being in there. I don't know if there's any sort of psychological things. Why would anyone resent? Why would there be any

for white for them? I don't know. I watched a documentary. There's always nothing about it. There was, they didn't touch it once. No. So on New Year's Eve, 1989, OJ beats Nicole very badly. She escapes and calls the LAPD. And the police finder hiding in a bush, I mean she's clearly had a brood lay down some kind Sorry?

Could have been hiding seat We don't know You know couples play silly games The police try to arrest OJ But he escapes in his Bentley And when he is arrested He's charged with domestic violence And sentenced to two years probation

He then gets something about Nicole basically says don't charge him Something like that And then This is to be fair Again this is amazing That's my own motivation He is ordered to do

120 hours of community service which he then says, well, I'll organise a charity golf tournament and that's my community service. Because I'm giving them one to charity. So it is community service. It's kind of amazing. It is kind of amazing. But it shows that like in America, actually celebrity

is a higher class than race. It transcends like the privilege of being celebrity transcends race, basically. But this is the American class system. So at this point I guess he is also playing golf a lot because he's in white society. He's been on a naked government film. He's kind of cosplaying as a white dad.

Yes. As a white conservative dad. Anyway, so the incident makes the news, but OJ states that Nicole had attacked him first. Right. He was defending himself. And also she was massive by this point. Terrifying. Terrifying.

This huge woman, this beast of a woman. You know, she had not lost her baby weight. Attacked me. There's so many domestic violence calls during this period. Yeah. How many is that? 65 or something. So it's happening all the time.

And it's this real cycle of abuse. that he's just, she's constantly calling up saying, if only she was cycling. Yeah, that's what the real abuse is. Yeah. But she's saying he's going to kill me. She's saying all the time. She's saying all the time to her family.

To the police. At some point he's going to kill me. He's going to kill me. And the LAPD are also getting to know Rockingham, which is their big mock due to imagine. The LADPD thinks maybe it's their unique sense of humour. Yes. You know.

They're very trusting the LAPD of a certain type. a person. But my point is that officers who end up coming into this story, they're going out to Rockingham a lot because there's frequent disturbances. Officer Terry's shower of the LAPD alleges that OJ

had been also violent towards Marguerite, his ex-wife. He claims that he received a call from Marguerite saying that she'd been beaten but that she wouldn't press charges because she says if he did then he would have got a frying pan upside his head.

this is soul talk now which I don't know if I should do the accent I probably should do the accent he'd have got a frying pan I think we get it I'm just trying to paint the picture for our listeners her name is Marguerite

yeah you know this is this is black America but this kind of angle does sort of imply upside his head where was Nicole's frying pan like it is kind of like the view and it is actually a view during the trial a lot of women

view Nicole being beaten as her fault. Because I think a lot of women at the time, especially older women, basically say, I would never be in this cycle. Because I've got a frying pan. And that you must secretly love it if it keeps happening.

Yeah. It's like this kind of psychological thing where you just assume, well, if anyone did that to me, I'll just get a frying pan. It's how the French reacts to me to. Yeah. Villiers.

Well, yeah. You're asking for it. Yeah, exactly. They're men. You're wearing a skirt. Yeah. What did you expect to happen? You're wearing jeans.

you're wearing a massive straight jacket what do you expect to happen so Nicole at some point how old what year does they divorce she goes and stays with the kids she expresses fears to friends including Chris Jenner who is OJ's friend's

Chris Kardashian at this point at this point yes at this point Chris Kardashian because her husband Robert Kardashian is a friend of OJ's from USC He's always around Rockingham yeah it's part of that kind of L.A. So Robert Kardashian and Chris Kardashian divorce in 91, OJ and Nicole file for divorce in 1992.

Takes Nicole a long time to get it. There's all talks of leaving him. He's constantly cheating on her. Yeah. And what I must stress is that I'm aware to our listeners that this is bordering on TMZ, TMZ Mail Online, girl filth. Right. Which is why this topic is so universal, that it is a documentary that you can watch with your other half. It's, yeah, it's blue and pink, you know.

It is. Yeah. It covers it all. It's true crime. It's race in America. It's sports. Sports. It's true.

Yeah. It's a woman getting murdered. It's got everything. It's a woman getting murdered. They love it. Yeah. They love that stuff. It's Vegas.

It's Vegas. It's brilliant. Vegas is great. You know, what's amazing about this story is that when we do a four part to normally, the last part is kind of wrapping up loose ends. Yeah. I'm almost more excited for the fourth part. I think the fourth part is maybe the best.

It's astonishing. Yeah. So they get divorced in 992. But, but despite, this, OJ's controlling behaviour is continuing. He plants people in her friendship circles. Have you ever done that? No, but I'd love to.

I'd love to have people to plant. I'd love to have a mole. Yeah. I mean, I just don't have a spying it. I don't have enough friends. Yeah. I barely got, I can't plumb to build my own social networks. Yeah. Let alone my wife. Firstly, work on getting a circle. Can I have some friends? Because my wife's got... I've planted people in my own

social to spy on me. To spy on me. Because I don't trust myself. it'll be great to have people feed back to you you can sit in a big chair and just listen, stroke in a cat as they whisper things be lovely. He sends people to go out when she did

and then gets them to come report back He follows... Yeah, he's cunning and thick. Cunning and thick. Yeah, he's quite dastardly. Yes, he is. There's something very like... Now, in April 92, he follows Nicole

and her then-boyfriend Keith back to her house after they go to de club. He's looking out for her. I imagine she wine wine ponder cocky as you like saying Right

And while they're inside Having sex OJ stands and watches them from the garden I don't imagine he's over the moon about this

OJ Yeah I can't imagine Keith is that please To be fair The amount of rage You can imagine

Seeing is he smacks with a baseball bat If she gains A little bit of weight Allegedly Allegedly He was shallow batting While she was in the car

Yeah Now he breaks into house the next morning and starts an argument with Nicole and Keith is still there. Probably the, I guess from his perspective, that's a bad one like stand. Yeah. Now, they're then begin rumors that Nicole is dating a man called Marcus Allen. Yeah, if you start, if you go back with someone and they're like, they're married to OJ and he turns up with a baseball bat shouting, it would be like, I think this is a bit too

much for me. Yeah. I'm out. Yeah, I'm out. Yeah. I was looking for something casual and fun. This is kind of the opposite. It's not fun.

Marcus Allen is a friend of OJ he's also kind of his prodigie in that he is 15 years younger and he's similarly doing these mad he's running loads of yards on the NFL field and he's kind of the big NFL star of this era

and there are rumors that Marcus Allen and Nicole are dating which OJ sees Marcus as a younger version of himself so he's deeply competitive and there's a jealousy there obviously so 93 Nicole tries to reconcile the relationship with OJ for the sake of the children,

but the violence continues. Nicole calls the police again. And in the documentary you can hear in the background of the phone calls. Him screaming. OJ. screaming. Shouting. Yeah. Now, in May 94, they officially split up again.

And so we get to the early hours of 13th of June, 1994. A jogger calls the police. The police arrive and find two bodies just. outside of Nicole Brown Simpson's house. They're both dead, allegedly. They could still be alive.

They could still be alive. Could be in Brazil. Nicole's in Brazil. Nicole's in Brazil. Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman are having peanut galanas. Sorry? Eva Brown. Nicole Eva Brown Simpson. My God. I don't know how deep this thing went.

How deep does this go? Nicole Eva Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman are on the Rio fucking beach drinking pinnacoladas with Adolf Hitler. I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it. Oh my God. Take me there now. So anyway, to Nicole Brown

and Ron Goldman, who is a, it seems, worst case of wrong place, wrong time that's ever been, is a sort of waiter who I think is returning her phone maybe. He's got wrong place, wrong time syndrome. Ron, wrong place, time, Goldman, more like. Wrong place, wrong time. One place, Rontime Goldman, is returning Nicole's glasses.

But we'll go into this in more detail on the next episode. Yes. Near the bodies, the police find a single bloodied black glove. Now, we're going to leave this episode here. Tantalizing. Tantalizing. Everything is poised. In our next episode, we will deal with the murder scene.

The history of race rights in L.A. of race rights in LA we will what OJ does next and in the two episodes after that we'll be joined by Red Richardson amazing comedian

to go through the trial and OJ's... We thought it's a very racially complicated and sensitive issue who better than getting Red Richardson on as a guest

he does look a bit like Ron Goldman's dad yeah that's true but it's nice just to kind of balance the diversity of the sofa when talking about something

yeah we need another guy with a mustache so another white guy over the mustache to talk about the OJ 12. His mustache

is slightly darker than yours. Yeah. So, you know. That's a level. It's a spectrum. Yeah. Intersectionality. Black hair

meets mustache. Anyway. It looks like a cross between me and you, basically. It basically looks like cross between me and you. Yeah. Split the difference

between me and Finn. Yeah. And you get red. Anyway, he'll be on. And he'll also going to stick around to talk about Oscar Vestoris. And we'll be dealing

with Caitlin Jenner, another murderer. And that's all on the Patreon. And you can access the entire series now by signing up for just three pounds a month. But if not, we'll see you on Thursday as we continue the dramatic life of OJ Simpson. Goodbye. Goodbye.