Fin vs History - Was Socrates a Fraud? | The Golden Age of Athens (Part 2)

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

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Hello, welcome back to Finn versus History. As ever, I'm here with the ratio Gould. He's gone big. It's John Motson. Oh, another one. Oh, what a goal. John Motson. We should do an episode on John Motson.

If we're talking about what is this podcast about, And we're still trying to, we're still finding that. We're still early days in this podcast. I feel John Motson really is, he encapsulates an element of this podcast. He'd slot right in. Oh! Did he die?

He did die. That's shame. We should do a lot. We should do, we should do the history of, um, football commentary. So he was a match of the day commentators. You'd never see him.

He would just be on one of the highlighted games. He would be doing commentary. His thing was he had a big, uh, he always wore sheepskin. He wore sheep skin. But he just had a great reaction to goals going in. He couldn't,

he couldn't believe it every time a goal went in. like he'd never seen a goal. It was always... And then they'd score a goal. Oh, my word, he scored! It's like he didn't know that the rules were you could put it in the goal. You can't do that.

But we're not here to talk about the history of John Watson, I'm? If only we were. We are back in the doldrums of... This is not Finn versus John Motson, is it? No, no. I'd watch that. Now. Yeah, yeah, it's giving me ideas.

It'd be funny, with Finn versus Internet, Finn versus history, then Finn versus John Watson would seem so uncalled for. What, in Saudi Arabia? Fabia is a big fight, like Furiusuk. Me versus the corpse of John Watson. No, we are, we're talking about the Golden Age of Athens.

Which I think the last episode potentially is the least informative we've ever done. I might be up there. If you're knowledgeable at the time period, that might be the most infuriate in one to, you know, I think we said Pericles,

he was important, and I think that was pretty much as much as we talked about Pericles. I think we call them all paedophiles. Yeah, that's true, yeah. But we do do that very... Like a stop clock, we are like twice a day. We're calling every historical figure a paedophile.

And it happens on this time to be correct. Yeah. But we're here in the golden age of Athens. It's a flourishing of culture art. There's been a lot of golden ages, but this one, why it captures the imagination so much, is because so much of the stuff we still use today. On the, yesterday I passed a theatre that was doing Oedipus.

They're still doing Greek plays. Still doing them. Yeah. Kind of invented that shit. Greek philodon. invented the history of Western philosophy. So where all West philosophy comes from basically is the Greek. So basically we're just placed this in context.

It's the 5th century BC. Right. So what that? That's after the invention of, this is maybe a tentative one. I'm going to say after the invention of the stool. Yep. Do you think so?

Yep, I think so. We don't know. Sorry, which stool do you mean? Not a... Is it the type of the Greeks would put a little office bin next to the talk? No, it's, um, have you seen those stalls that help you, uh, pass a stool? Yes, so you, the step. The step.

Yeah. Uh, so it's before that, but it's after the classic stall. It's before they'd worked out that if they put that stool and they lift their feet, they have better shits. Yes. Yeah. Right. So that's, that place is it.

It's after the basic wooden, wooden stall. Yeah. And it's before the help yourself shit stool. Before toilets were invented, people defecated in a variety of places. Open spaces. Well, I mean, fields, forests, bushes,

that's nasty. I'd hate to be downstream from you, Lout. Then, so open spaces, rivers, then cesspits. Well, we talked about cesspits on the medieval episode. Yeah, middle ages.

Grim. Fucking grim. Sort of like the watering hole. That was like a social place where everyone would hang out. Oh yeah, I'll see you down at the cesspot. So, I mean, and obviously we don't need to dwell on Greek plumbing anymore.

I mean, we maybe covered that last episode. I think we covered that. What I would say is that this is not a golden age for Greek plumbing. No, but it's better than That age is yet to arrive I would say I would say the era

where Greeks are knocking it out of the park in terms of sanitation It's yet to come Okay, I'm not even responding to what you're typing up Charlie Because we actually, I don't want to get too sidetrack Charlie, we're trying to get the history out Okay, it's a fascinating period of history I think the Romans invented the latrine The latrine

The toilet I guess so It's a Roman toilet I believe it was a very sociable time. Okay. Roman latrine. Here we go. Yeah.

So this is what's interesting, right? About the Roman retreat. It's like a long drop's a glaston breathing with no barriers. Yeah. So it was just a very like, I guess there was just, there wasn't any sort of like, shame about shitting. You've got to remember that nowadays you get on the toilet, you get your phone out, you're WhatsApping while you're pooing.

Yeah. These guys don't have WhatsApp. So they're just getting the groups together. Chat and through shit chatting. Well, if you're smart and you're ambitious, it's one of the best networking opportunities you can have. Like, I would be just sat on the toilet all day, just saying who comes through.

Imagine the kind of people you'd meet. That's true. You know? It's just a great way to meet someone. Yeah, it is. But they would think, well, I'm not going to employ that guy because he's been on the toilet all day. He's clearly got so wrong with his bowels

because he just spends his day shitting. So I'm not going to play with it was. You would be networking to not get a job because you would be seen as someone who had chronic bowel issues. Yeah. Why is that guy giving his business? business card on the toilet.

Yeah. Unless you had a variety of disguises. But this is not Finn versus Latrine, is it? God, stop. Give me ideas. This is Finn versus history. And more importantly, Finn versus the Golden Age of Athens. Now, part of the reason that's called the Golden Age of Athens is the invention

of philosophy. Before this, no one really thought about anything more than, can I eat that? Who's she? Does she want to fuck me? I need a poo. That's what's the invention of Western philosophy. So there's different schools of philosophies. You could argue in our idea of philosophy

is only really Western philosophy because I did read a book on how the world thinks and different schools of philosophy. There's sort of like, there's an Indian philosophy which is sort of like, I don't know, like Buddhism. Zembobs. Yeah.

There's Chinese philosophy, which is just Confucius saying, respect your mom. Yeah. That's kind of it. Okay. But Western philosophy is very different to any other philosophies because it's basically white guys going,

but why? But why? But why? But why? And other cultures, that's not how philosophy developed. But is it like with Eastern, you know how Eastern medicine? Eastern medicine doesn't work?

Yeah. Is it like that with Eastern philosophy? No, because now Eastern philosophy, Western philosophy is just a very like, has ended up being a very academic, organized cerebral thing it's less I don't know

elemental spiritual like Eastern philosophy the idea that we're all one thing right yeah that you're not doing that and like wearing suits like this in an Oxford classroom right

no no that but it still has merit because that's terrifying because that means I'm the same as the specky kid at the back exactly yeah but instead it's like a lot of Western philosophy yet's most ridiculous

well what I would say is that Western people do think that Eastern people are all one thing I would say that I think you've misunderstood the teachers of a Buddha Right So you think what he means Is all age of people look alike

Well yeah Of course you think it's all one thing You all look the same Yeah of course that makes sense That checks out The Germans mainly think That everything comes down To fucking your mum

Right That's what Nietzsche Well modern West philosophy It's the main schools The French Which is they're trying to lower The Age of Consent Yeah

German which is kind of Milfs I want to fuck my mum Yeah The reason I'm not not happy is that I'm not fucking my book. Yeah, yeah. And then English is just sort of like nerds saying,

push it down, push it down. Well, how do we know that's true? Yeah, yeah. Well, can you see it? Yeah. Well, do you know you could see it? You know, it's people collecting stuff. But the Greeks invented this, this idea of thinking about stuff.

Yes. Beyond food and poos. And modern West philosophy stems from Socrates and more importantly, probably Plato, because Socrates didn't write anything down. Yeah, so Socrates was the first philosophy. who kind of like was he even philosopher or was he just a truly mental person?

I think he was just a bit of a prick from listening to him he was just a really annoying guy. Historically ugly. Yeah, yeah, get a photo of Socrates stank. He never washed.

He never wore shoes either. Never wore shoes. Well, he's sort of like a hippie. Yes, but he would just go around the Agora, which is the Greek forum just ask people, why do you think that? Yeah. You know what?

Why? He was just causing a lot of trouble, right? Never wrote anything down, though. So Plato, Socrates only really exist philosophically in the platonic dialogue. In the Socratic dialogue. That is, yeah. He's right.

Even in stone. Even in stone. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't look like a clever guy. No. The noise I'm imagining him saying, ooh, ooh.

That's mainly, yeah, he's big, I mean, big fucker. It looks like sort of local in like a Cotswold's pub. Yeah, like this is a guy. He's doing a meat rap. full right yeah yeah leather vest flat cap small dog little terrier but you know people haven't really asked why that much but i think it's i mean used this already but a stop clock is right twice a day

that's socrates he's just asking the same thing for everything and ends up coming across quite some quite you know profound things so socrates is the first guy who thinks sort of even though he looks like he's never had a thought in his life it's actually there's there's pre-socratic philosophers but we don't really count them because they're even more fucked up than socrates so it's like socrates is the beginning of you can trace back philosophy that we use now to socrates basically and he just questions everything why why why why you're doing that but but why does that happen before that yeah yeah what was before that and he's a toddler basically yeah exactly yeah and people thought he was a genius but he actually had like 40 IQ

because he got kicked by a goat when it was trying to fuck it yeah yeah of course right yeah um but then his student they put him to death yes yeah for corrupting the youth

but have you heard have you heard and denying the gods denying the gods he basically they sentence him right they sentence him and they say how should you

you have an opportunity to say what you think the punishment should be and it's either death or exile and he goes I think you should give me a biscuit you should know that genuinely, it goes, yeah, I think you should let me out

and I should have a biscuit. No, no, what is it? Free lunches for life? Yeah. I think you should have free lunches for life. Yeah. And they go, no, it's death or exile. He's just, the guy was a cunt.

Yeah. And he had a lot of supporters. I don't know, free lunches for life, actually. I think I should have a biscuit. He's a toddler. Yeah. You go, you just hit your sister. Yeah.

Go and sit in the Nautry step. I think I should have a biscuit. No, fuck you. Yeah. That's what he is. And then they offered him exile or death and he said, oh. Death, yeah. The figure of Socrates was unattractive

He has said to have been short fat With a malformed face However he got married to a girl Much younger than him Oh yeah Zanitha Well, when in Rome Yeah

When in Greece And then his student Plato Wrote down the Socratic dialogues Which is his dialogue with Socrates Socrates is the character In Plato's philosophies And that's how his thoughts sort of exist So you don't really know

Who's Plato Does Plato have any of his own thoughts? I think so I mean Plato's kind of the most important philosopher in some ways it's hard to know

distinguish with what was Socrates just going but why everything is footnotes to Plato is what philosophers say Right okay And he was

What did he look like then Is he any better Plato's looks pretty fucking bad ass He looked kind of dench Socrates's wife looks fit But then that's I mean that's clearly not her Yeah what

That's like Plato long beard Yeah he was kind of So they're barefoot guys Yeah They wear robes They don't wear shoes. They fuck boys.

And they think. This starts in Athens because there's no real wars to go going on. But before we go on to Plato, there's also pre-Socratic philosophers, right? So this is before people even thought, why? People like Diogenes. Right. So this is the guy who these are like, the philosophers back then, they're sort of, yeah, clinically insane people cross with sort of performance artists. This is, they're not writing stuff down.

Kim Noble. Okay, exactly. Yeah. But it's, can you count this as a philosopher if you're just barking at pigeons? Like, is that like, does that count? They're going into like a weather spoon to the shopping bag. Yeah. And shouting nondescript stuff.

Yeah. But isn't that, don't people say that those people are like the happiest? Well, yeah, maybe. Well, so this guy. So he's saying he's on to something. So this guy's whole thing was that he believed, he wanted to demonstrate the wisdom and happiness belonged to the man who is independent of society and that civilization itself is regressive. So like the rules of society.

he wanted to constantly challenge. Yes. Right. So, you know, he's pushing the line. It was a shot comic, right? Jimmy Carr. Yeah. And so he did this by...

He scored not only family and social political organizations, but also property rights and reputation. He even rejected traditional ideas about human decency. In addition to eating in the marketplace, I mean, that's not... Now, considering where we're going,

that seems fine. That seems to me that's all right. At the moment, I don't see anything. Daughey said to have urinated on some people insulted him. Defecated in the theater. Now, and masturbates it in public. and pointed at people with his middle finger,

which was, because it's insulting. That's interesting. So that has been around longer than I thought. But why is that fourth in the list that Wikipedia's just done for this? Well, it must have been really insulted. Yeah, because, I mean, I don't know why in the middle of there is defecated in the theatre. No, no, listen, wait, I would say in the order of these things that are bad, right, I'd say, masturbating in public, big no-no.

Yeah, you can't be doing that. Don't be doing that. Then I'd say, urinating on people who insult you. That's not fair. That's not cricket. That is not cricket. Then I would say doing that. Yeah.

And then having a shit in a theatre with something I have done. And I'll be honest, I will, you know, after 10 minutes of the play, I'll say, I'll go and sit in the toilet and I'll wait for the play to blow over. Then I'll come out and say, yeah, I've got stomach trouble. What's amazing about this? It's because I think a lot of the time it was like during the day, you're sat in the round. It's not, lights aren't down. You're not in like a West End theatre.

It's an amphitheatre, isn't it? It's open air. So imagine how he's doing it, if I know Dajanese, as I do. He's pulling his toga up. Yeah. And he's just blasting a hot load of shit down the steps. Midway through a performance. So then imagine how satisfied it would be to see all those Greek guys just scatter away from this one guy. Revealing this one guy just... He'd then wipe his ass and put it in a little bin. To be fair to him, I don't think the Greeks have. have toilets in the theatre. Yes, so maybe it was less of a political point. It's more of a practical solution. Again, it's a plumbing issue. But also, do you think he then, he's shit in the theatre, obviously, you know, in front of everyone, people would say, don't do that,

you're disgusting, and he'd then piss on them for calling him disgusting. Yes. And then give him the finger and start whacking, wanking. But look, so it's controversial that clearly eating in public was a big no-no, but that's now fine so I think he was breaking down some things but it was sort of trial and error

well I guess so some things work who could have maybe he thought potentially masturbating public could have been a norm listen to break down it does take one brave canary in the coal mine to find these things out yeah so if eating in public which is now considered is it considered fine I mean obviously

obviously go to restaurants and stuff but like people eating on the tube you know there's definitely something about hot food on the tube on the train stinky yeah stinky fish on the train yeah that's a no no yeah um It's still less of a no-no than Jack in it. Yeah. On a...

Shitting in the theatre, yeah. Although I tell you what. Pissing on someone who doesn't agree with you, though, I do think there's... I'll tell you what, here's my ranking, right. So, I'd go wanking on a train. Yeah. Train escap, right? Wanking in a four-seater table on a train.

Right. Not, no, no. Then eating stinky fish on a train. Then I'd go wanking in a two... vestibule two seats where there's you've got your bag on the other seats or no one's sitting there I think eating fish

that's hot is worse than quietly masturbating into like a corner seat. How quietly? Quietly. Right. So is it in the quiet carriage? It's not an ostentatious wank. Right. It's a quiet carriage wank. Right. Fine. So you're just hearing fabric rub. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's better than hot fish. Yeah. Thank you. If only it were as easy to banish hunger by rubbing my belly so wait hold on the indecency of his masturbating public he's saying if only it was easy yeah I guess that's a good point of masturbation the difference is you can just sort yourself out oh you can't do that with any apparatus so this guy is is more annoyed at being hungry than he is horny yeah because to him horning this while just sort yourself out well I guess he's more like I wish

filling yourself up would be as easy as coming yes wouldn't it be great is whenever you're hungry but Greece is not as if they don't have any foods It's true But also just to prove how mad he was If this isn't enough When he'd go home at night This is what I think almost undermines Some of the points he's trying to make

Some of his Marina Abramovich style Performance art pieces about society Yeah pussy right Yeah shitting in a theatre He would go and sleep in a big jar So not just a jar Look if you scroll down He would sleep in like a big Greek jar

A Greek jar You know those, you know, like, Hercules jars? No, like a vase. Well, most of the stories about him living jar are located in Athens. Hotel, yeah. So, yeah, he was just going like a big... I don't think you can see this, right? Imagine a massive jar.

Yeah. He would just curl up and sleep in that. But is the jar on its side, or is he climbing up to get in the jar? I think he's climbing up and getting into it, right? Oh, no, maybe it's on the side. It's like an urn. Yeah, he's like a snail. Right, okay.

So, but it just just did say on that Wikipedia, article, not to show the listeners behind the curtain. But he did just say that he hated Socrates, so he must be post-ocratic. It's not pre-Socratic. It's not pre-Socratic. They're both at the same time. So this is a goal.

So, yeah, it's funny that I guess some people in life, you could say are followers of Diogenes. Diogenes. And some people are Socratic. Yeah. In that some people get annoyed, ask annoying questions. Why? Why?

Yeah. Some people just go, fuck that. I'm just going to jack it in public. I'd say on the spectrum I'd more towards Diogenes I think I'm more Socratic You know Yeah

Yeah Little and large Ying and Yang Dwight York and Andy Cole Needs a bit of both But it's a spectrum Isn't it Yeah

It's a spectrum of personalities But you can trace Western philosophy From this point You know It makes sense Doesn't it That it started

With a guy Shitting in the theatre Yeah exactly It lands with Freud Saying you want to fuck your mum There's a line That you can draw I'm more into visceral philosophy

than I am The In Incheval type I like the the idea that everything is motivated by the melancholy feeling you get that wanting to fuck your mum but you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's probably a German word, ironically, for that feeling. Yeah, off feet and flattensflatin. I'm flutting. The bitter melancholy, the longing to fuck your mom, even though you know. It's Rona week. Now until Wednesday, rain or shine, you can always be building yourself a better summer. So head on over to Rona

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Hooray! Hooray! The Conjuring Last Rites. Only in the theatre, September 5th. So, so that's Diogenes. Should we go back to Plato? But Plato's the guy, and he writes down everything that Socrates said.

He doesn't write anything about Diogenes. No. I mean, and if he had, then maybe we'd know more about him. Yeah. And so Plato's Republic Well, I mean, because the Socratic dialogue was this intellectual conversation where Socrates would ask why and Plato

explain why. I don't know if you could have a diogenetic Dialogue. Look what he's doing. That guy just did a shit. I don't know if that would translate on the page as well. Yeah.

And then I asked Diogenes, what do you think about the idea of aesthetics in art? Yeah. Diogenes proceeds to shit in the theatre. That's what I think. now see I do think that though what do you think of this play

I'm going to do a shit that's what I think of this play so now interesting I know there'll be ancient history nerds in my opinion you're the worst type of nerd you're commenting saying

all this stuff happened after the fall of Athens yeah we know obviously we're going to get to that we're rushing around at a non-linear time but the philosophers sort of they start

in Athens gold mage ancient right so how Stop. We nearly got onto something, but we're going to stop. Charlie has just revealed that ancient Greeks primarily clean their bottoms using broken pieces of pottery called Pesto, which essentially acted like a rough scraping tool to remove fecal matter after defecation. These shards were often repurposed from old ceramic vessels found around their homes.

And then it says key points about ancient Greek bum cleaning. Well, thank fuck someone steering this ship. thank fuck when they're not talking about philosophy and we're back to how Greeks clean their bum I imagine it's sort of like you're a news reporter and this is just

the Greeks use broken pottery to clean their asses yeah it's looking less like a golden age the more we dwell on it doesn't it you know I think it's quite an overrated era you know what I'm you know how they say we look the things the ancient Greeks did stay with us

they've never worked out how to wipe their ass This has always been their Achilles heels. It's always been their Achilles. It's their bum. They don't know what to do. They know how to think. Yeah.

They know how to fucking cook. Getting the toilet. They fucking no idea. I have no idea. And that's why they need the EU. Left their own devices, they will wipe their ass with shards of pottery. I just feel, right. So you're out of toilet roll.

Sorry. Evidence for this practice comes from archaeological digs where these potteries. shards have been found in ancient Greek latrines. I think that archaeologist is quite similar to me in that it would have gone I reckon they might have arse for that. Because that's not, that's, that's tangent dental at best, isn't it?

Oh, there's pottery in the toilet. Do you reckon there maybe there was a ceramic? Nah, they wiped their asses off the shop. These filthy Greek cunts, they wipe their ass with the pottery, I reckon. I'm sorry, the rough edges of the shard were used to scrape away ways. There's no way they can know that. That's like finding a stack of auto-traders in

our toilets now into that. and it's time going they wipe their ass for car magazines Do you know they know that? They used all right They used Yeah

But so Greeks also smash plates They're using the cruise set Do you know what Do you reckon that's why At a wedding They smash plates So that everyone can then go Wipe

What's it? But what I find funny Is it's Look We've all been caught short Where you go in a public toilet And there's no toilet Yeah

To them They just find the nearest jar Yeah Smash it They grab one Like are there Is there just loads of jars in public toilets just waiting

to be smashed. Right. The Greeks do, they love smashing stuff. Don't they? Yeah. They smash plates at weddings. Why do they do that? Is that a Greek thing? Yeah. I thought it was Jewish. No, the Jews get people on the... The chair.

Surround materials may have damaged the butt. Near no shit. Over time, causing skin irritation and external haemorrhoids. Now, how long do you need it take them for them to work that out? Once. Once. Maybe it's because you'll clean your ass with pottery. Maybe that's why

because you wipe your ass with fucking basically sandpaper. Jesus Christ. I think I could have found better things. Like leaves, guys? Isn't it mad that the kiln was invented before toilet paper? Yeah. Because in order to...

That's literally one of the last things I'd use to wipe my ass. I broke a broken pot. Yeah. That really is. I get it just goes to show. that even in golden ages is for yeah golden ages from the eye of the holder if you're in a latrine I'm like this is not a fucking

these are not thinkers bad time to live in so what were we talking about before you put up oh Plato and the other one was Aristotle right who is Plato's so Plato is they all fucking each other is that why they do but they're not

you're misunderstanding this is not a gay thing I'm not saying it's gay yeah they're not lovers it's neutral they're just having a bit of to be honest rumpy pumpy and I wouldn't normally used that word, but that's what it was. They're just getting each other off. They're getting each other off, but it's just like, it's like we're going to go for lunch

after this, right? Yeah. It would be like, we'll just... What do you say lunches, though? I don't, lunches, for me, is eating food. But I'm saying, I'm just saying if we were Greek philosophers, yeah, we've done work to this morning, right?

We've done a couple hours work. Yeah. To release the stress after lunch, we all bum each other. Right. But it's not like a weird thing. That is increasing my stress levels now. And who's been?

bumming who? Well, he doesn't, you know. Is it old? Is it? Who bummed each other yesterday? We'd have a rotor. Is it a poor rank system? Yes, you know, you would be able to.

So you'd probably be able to decide, uh, you'd probably do most of the bumming, to be honest. Oh, okay. That sounds fine. Yeah. Because I think the teacher would bum the student. Though I did read somewhere that a lot of the time, it wasn't just bumming. They would just, they would just, they'd rest their penis betwixt the ass cheeks.

Oh, right. Yeah. So it wasn't like always like shagging. It would just be like a, Is that a thing to be like, look how much self-restraint I've got? Maybe. I'm cradling my cock in between a man's bummed cheeks and I'm not bumming him. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess, yeah, maybe it's just sort of like leaning your head on their shoulder. It's like a shoulder to cry on, ass cheeks to rest your cock on. Yeah. Well, yeah, you can say if you're a good friend. Right. Can we get back to the philosophy please? It's like if you're a good friend and you say, I'll always be a shoulder to cry on. Yeah, I'll always be an ass to rest of your cock in.

Yeah. nice little thing. So that's Aristotle, I guess. No, no. No. Socrates taught Plato. Plato taught Aristotle and Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. So Alexander the Great had Aristotle shipped in because he was the smart sky to teach him. But Alexander the Great took different things. What was interesting is that you could trace a real lineage from Socrates, Plato and Aristotle where it's a development of philosophy. It's quite a clear, distinct development. Aristotle then taught Alexander the Great. He was like, well, we'll just kill all loads of Middle East and send. Just go and kill the Turks, right? No, no. No, I'm saying it's about how we perceive reality.

Okay, it's just kill as many people as possible. No, you're not listening to me, Alexander. That's the lesson I'm getting. Kill everyone. Yeah, brilliant. It's like Hitler reading Nietzsche. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I get it, yeah.

Just kill all the gypsies. No, you can't even, don't even use those words. So, uh, that's... But there are very different philosophers, Aristotle. But philosophy starts in, uh... Right. Aristotle violently rebelled against his master Plato, or among other things, the matter of pedastritic pedophilia.

Right. Right. Right. So Aristotle's like, do you know what? I'm going to... I've had enough of this. What's that thing about how abuse runs in cycles? Yeah.

To stop toxic... Generational trauma. Generational trauma. Yeah. So there's a bit like a Russian doll of bumming in that... Socrates bum Plato. Yeah. Plato then tried to bum Aristotle and he went, the cycle ends here.

And then... Well, yeah. And then he... Because he didn't bum Alexander the Great, Alexander the Great killed loads of... Genocided loads of Persians. Anyway, they're all paedophiles. I think as an expert take is that.

they're all pedophiles. But again, we're saying paedophile with the pejority it has now. So Plato wrote, he did loads of stuff, but like the Republic is a very famous work of Plato.

The idea of the philosopher king. So his idea of the perfect society, right? Is that you'd have like five kids who were raised to be the perfect leaders, right? Yes. Which is kind of what British society

was like for ages, right? You'd go to Eaton, Oxford, all of that stuff. That's quite philosopher king. inspired by that where you basically just raise them well like trickle down philosophies and you have really intelligent guys and that trickles down to the sort of but you just thought like if you just start someone being people being raised the best education the learning everything they should then they'll be good leaders basically right okay oh yeah yeah that's kind of was one of these things but he but you always gone about this the cave yeah which is from the republic this is much more

about like this is pure philosophy so this is not political philosophy this is not from the republic this is how we perceive reality so this is you know uh and All right, so his idea is there's always, so let's take the pocket pussy, right? Yeah. When you see a pocket pussy, yes. You're seeing a form with a pocket pussy,

which is a form of the perfect ideal of the perfect pocket pussy. It's a bit like how Hoover is actually the brand name for a vacuum cleaner. I guess so. So when you look at a Hoover, you're looking at a vacuum cleaner, but you call it a Hoover even though. Plato says most people are sheeple. Yeah. And what you're watching, when you see anything,

when you see... He meant cum socks. He meant that, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're actually, it's loads of people in a cave who, there's people with puppets of actual things with a fire behind it and the shadows being reflected on a cave wall. And you're just looking at, you're looking at pocket pussy and you think it's real. Yeah. But it's actually someone holding the shape of a pocket pussy up against a backlit and it's being reflected. You're like, and you think that's real. To break out philosophically, you have to get out the cave and realize these are all concepts and ideas, basically. Right. So it's deconstructionist. yes it's the kind of beginning of all those sort of things can we know what these things really are like that is a table is it or is it a kind of a variation on the idea of a table yeah like right now I'm perceiving you as very boring yeah but are you just are you actually boring yeah but then it's your perception of a good first date is my perception of good first date is your perception of boring but your hello my name is this really is this really a table to the perfect idea of boring yeah yeah but you're doing that in reference to the idea of the ultimate of the boring.

Right. Of the ultimate form of the boring. And the ultimate form of boring is unknowable until I get out of the cave? Yeah. Right. So it's even more boring outside. Right.

Do you want, can we get the image up? But this is basically the matrix, right? Yeah, yeah. Essentially. Yeah, yeah. There's the beginning of that stuff, for sure. You see that? Yeah, right.

So is that like... So the sheep all there, you're just seeing... You're seeing a pot. You're seeing a bird. You're seeing a tree. Yeah. That's actually just the form of a tree, a bird and a pot.

Yeah. So I don't know what it means either, by the way. but then what I don't understand is the is this basically essentially some guys on Reddit being like you won't believe actually did 9-11 yeah the the towers are going down and you're just you're eating the you're eating the propaganda yeah you're yeah it's like those people who post like on Facebook you know there's loads of sheep going one way and you're a wolf going the other way you know you're going against the herd yeah right that's that's the first one of these right okay I still don't understand

I have no idea. I'm actually no idea. Maybe you're not meant to. And then Aristotle, he believes that you gain all this knowledge. Because Plato has this big idea, it's rationalism, that you can sort of think of these things using your mind. You can go into your mind palace. Yeah.

And you could sort of, but Aristotle's all about lived experience. So you can know something by experiencing it and kind of, basically the real world's real. Right, okay. So identity politics. Yes. So you're only allowed to talk about stuff. Have you lived it? Lived experience.

Yeah. Right. It's, you know. He was a big He posted the black square And he said all this out He was under the grate And he was like brilliant

So I'm going to chop loads of heads off Yeah Brilliant Different strokes Right I think that's philosophy done That's philosophy done Theatre we touched on

So the height of Athenian power It's generally considered 460 to 430 Again we're going backwards For all the dumbs Pericles Oh architecture We haven't touched on that

All the grossy old ruins You see now in Greece Which is Greece to give us proper names Grotio ruins, Greece. That's how the word Greece came from grotioldroenz. Grosio de Ruins, gris.

Again, the golden age of architecture above the ground, sewer systems underground. The big thing is the Greek pillar. That's probably the longest lasting architectural thing they're given. Which the Romans then take, right? There's a lot of the Romans take the Greek stuff, don't they?

Well, what it is, is... You'll see yourself as more of a Roman, wouldn't you, then, in Greek? Hey? Would you say you're more of a Roman? They're the ones with an artist salutes. yeah I'm Roman I guess The what it is is the Greeks were sort of like

I don't know It was a vegan cafe Where they're all wearing like multi-coloured stuff They're neurodivergent Autistic artistic Artistic people Right Yeah

They're all adults in a crash It's a soho theater bar Right And then the Romans are kind of Militant accountants Who'll chop your heads off Yep Who basically just stole all the stuff they've done

Yeah And so that seems pretty good And then they took over the whole world Yeah That's kind of the difference between Greeks and Romans, right? They're just sitting in a playpen, developing all these ideas. And the Romans are like, we're Nazis, but we'll just take all the aesthetics. Yeah, great.

Okay, sorry, yeah. Yeah, we nearly touched on something interesting there. The Romans used a big brush to clean their bombs after using the bathroom. A sea sponge. Now, people still use sea sponges to clean their bodies today. Comedient shout out, Stuart McPherson has a funny bit about this. Was it Stuart McPherson? Which is, it's amazing how we've come so far in technology.

but the brush on a stick we've never developed further than that like a toilet brush it is interesting that we haven't come up with something new but what else could it be surely Elon Musk could think of something right no I mean you need to get shit off of porcelain

yeah but surely there's better ways to do it than a shitty stick well yeah but what else could it you need the control you're stuck in the cave no no no no no I'm looking outside the cave going it's better in the cave I can scrape shit up a wall in the cave

So you think that we'll never come at something better Than a brush and a stick to clean shit off of it? It's a bit like the difference between a manual and an automatic car If you don't have a toilet brush Clean Put a toilet by using a combination of clean age Like vinegar and bleach Firstly, right Well I'm not chucking baking soda down there Charlie

Exactly You don't want to get baking soda in your bathroom This is Greek stuff now My point is it's a bit like an automatic and a manual car In an automatic car is on paper Better But you have less control of the car, right?

Right. I like being able to, right, this is a hill. I'm going to put it into second rather than... So you like doing stick shift when you're cleaning shit out of your loo? Stick shift, stick shit is the same thing, right? You need the leverage to actually work the shit off the interior of the bowl. What do you think I'm suggesting? I think you're suggesting some kind of automated robot thing that won't actually...

Yeah, it won't work. You know, dishwashers, you're going to have to use the amount of salt you're going to have to put in your toilet to give it the cleaning consistency. a power washer Sorry, you're doing a shit You'll then unplug it I'm plugging You know

Have you thought about When you spray a pressure washer And the amount of stuff That like shoots in your face Yeah Because you're trying to get shit Yeah no but this is I've only just thought about this today

Like give me another couple of days I'll think of something better I don't think This is my first idea Was a power washer Yeah I don't think you're I think power washing your shit What about less strong power washer

Or like you can turn it But that's just a flush Isn't it? Yeah I guess seeing you basically getting like a laser gun and shooting your toilet off or it'd be like you put the toilet brush is just a extension that you put on like a drill and you'd what i don't want what i don't want is i don't want a stick that still has the shit on it i tell you what you want

what you want you to put the shitty stick in something that then cleans the shitty stick yeah that's and keeps it away from the toilet and then it flushes down the same pipe the water i want it away Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you're not Greek. I get it. You're not a Greek man. Or maybe just smash jars in there. Yeah, maybe that'll work. Just smash the shards. Get out of paper bin and just shove a fucking... Charlie's been waiting to say something for ages. Well, you can just treat the porcelain like your bum. So you just wipe the toilet with... You wipe the toilet with paper.

I feel we're still... So that does actually get rid of it. But now I don't want to do that either. Well, the first thing you're doing... It's a bit degrading. The first thing you're doing is you're trying to pee the poo off that. Everyone does that. right? Yeah.

Which is the power is the same content as the power washer right? Yeah. Because can you not get a thin stream

similar to a really hard pace? I get it. You've got a small dick. That's why we didn't you came up. You're your whole topic. We didn't even get to any Athenian culture

last episode because you've got a gender which is I've got a small dick and I'm proud of it. Will you just drop it? Some of us... Well, a lot of people do think I'm a gender

because that's for my caucus. That's a problem. Some of us. Some of us weren't born as blessed as you. Love you all the Amaphrodite. They're like, he's got neither. No, I've got a cock is very small. Some of us have got big clunky cumbersome dicks that we wish.

I do have a gender. It's male. So I don't care what people say. Some of us have got big cumbersome clunky decks. Yeah. A horrible massive cock. I'm currently crowdfunding my penile reduction surgery. A vulgar.

The whole reason I started this patron was to make my dick smaller. A vulgar big Greek nose of a cock. Anyway, this is the golden age of Athens. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's taxes extra.

So the architecture. Yeah. The Acropolis. I went to Athens recently. I was trying to get to. Yeah. The Acropolis. Yeah.

Which people think that was like. No, did you need a wee or a poo while you're at the Akron? No, I saved it till I got home. Yeah, of course. So the Acropolis is the, that's the Parthenon. That's the big ruin at the top of the mountain. There's those of temples up there. The Parthin was the most amazing thing anyone's seen.

It was a temple to Athena. But it wasn't like where everyone hung out, by the way. People think that was like the center of town. No. That was still the Agora, which is their idea of the forum, the marketplace. Which you can't eat even those loads of food stalls. Which is weird. Right, yeah.

It's probably you have those little set of those little tables. yeah like the yeah like a beer like benches yeah benches I don't know how that didn't come in but this was just like sort of you can see it you can still see it everywhere you're in greets you see the ruins yeah oh Partham sorry right but it was

built after they won the Persian war right but they also right so yeah so Pericles starts this building city building stuff the Parthenal was but there also was loads of stuff in the Acropolis before the Persians came and burned all down. The Acropolis is the

citadel, it's the mountain. The Acropolis is the flat surface at the top of that like table mountain type thing where they build all this shit on. And the Parthenon is the most famous building there. But they've got loads of shit going on there. And then the Brits,

during the Ottoman Empire, many centuries later, the Brits come. And because the Turks have been a bit, they're a bit loud, bit rambunctious, a bit naughty, guy called Lord Elgin over a period of years takes the statues

from the Parthadden to safekeeping in Britain It's a complicated one They're still in the British Museum now They're called the Elgin Marbles Yes Yeah It's a complicated one

Because I think with a lot of British Museum stuff Which has now been It's quite a hot topic now Right Everyone's talking about the British Museum Yeah There's got everything in there

But British stuff It's ironic They've stolen everything Right It's a crime scene Blah blah Yeah yeah Yeah

We've heard it all before Yeah At least the toilets work Yeah It's a complicated one Because there definitely was A lot of loot And there's a lot of

stuff stolen, but it's more complicated than that. I, the thing is, it was like we invented modern autism, the British Empire, right? Which is caring about the ancient world. Yeah. Taking the, like, little, like Charles Darwin, collecting all those bugs

and stuff. Yeah. All these archaeologists care about the shit. No one gave a fuck about that stuff at the time. Yeah. They do now, but that's because autism spread from Britain. Everyone's autistic. Yeah, now it's spread. Now everyone cares about this stuff, but they didn't at the time. The, the, the, the, the, the, During the Ottoman Empire was used as an ammo storage.

So the reason why most of the fuckedness of the ruins actually is because they were keeping T&T dynamite or whatever in there. And it exploded and blew up half of the Parthenon. Right. So it was being looted constantly. There was no respect for it at the time. Admittedly, it was occupied by Ottomans. But there wasn't this idea of Greek. Where shall we put explosive dynamite?

Put it in beautiful. Brilliant. Just put it in this amazing. storehouse for dynamite. It's fine. It's excellent dynamite will not blow up 100%. No, no, no, no, no. So the thing about British Museum is a lot of the stuff they have taken, they have preserved, which otherwise would have been looted to the stolen. Or blown up. Yes. The question is, now should you give it back? It's a different question. I guess the question is, are, have the Greeks, A, sourced out of their plumbing,

are they still near some Turks that are going to blow something up? You know, how trustworthy are they with the marbles? I guess is the question. And they used to have a shit museum right next to it and the Brits would always point at this shit museum was a museum with nothing in it

which is to be fair I guess I guess their argument would be yeah well you've got all the stuff so can we have it back so this museum has some stuff in it

yeah and we'd say you can't take care of these properly very patronisingly they've now gone and built one of the best museums I've seen of this type

with what they've got remanding of the Parthenon yeah they've taken a lot of it and rebuilt it inside so you can really see it and they've got all the bits that are missing

with like stand-in, like, freezes. So you can see... You can actually see where the stuff's meant to be. And we've taken a lot of the good shit, I'll tell you. We've taken all the best bits. What's your actual view on the Elgin of Marbles? What's my actual view? Yeah.

Well, it's the Elgin stuff. Yeah. That's my favourite period of history. Right. When Brits were basically... Steeding shit. Steeding shit. And patronising people.

I know that there's a... What's quite funny is that there is, like, government department set up on how to work out some way where the British can give them back without losing face. That seems to be the main issue. Oh, because it's a sign of like, it's like the Falklands. If we

let that go, it would be a symbolic. Exactly. It was all for nothing. But there's also something about how if the Brits give it back, then they are admitting they were wrong to take it and they don't want to do that. So they're trying to work out a way of going, well, yeah, you can have it on loan

from us. And the Greeks are like, No, you stole it, so we're not going to loan back my own stuff. You can't loan it to the Greeks because fuck they're going to give it back. Exactly. And then you're going to send military in and we're fighting Greece over some marbles. And that's embarrassing. It's embarrassing for them because we're going to win within a day. Yeah, I know.

But also, you can't march in for some of the marbles. They're going to run out of bullets. They're going to throw their poopins out. So then they've got no other tactics. All right. My view is, can we not just give them a lot of it back? We don't need all of it. Like some of it, I'll be like, you're going to have that.

You're going to have that. Let's just keep a little. D-Day was against Greece, right? There wouldn't be bunkers with machine guns. It would be fat men on plastic chairs on the top of a beach. Go, oh, it's so hot today. Not today. Oh, please, please, not today.

I know what I'll fight today. It's to what? But France has bits of the Parthenon. Russia's bits of the Parthal. Really? Yeah, they do. Why don't they get any shit? Because we've got loads of them.

We've got loads of it. I just think we should give most of it back and keep some of it. Because also, more people go to the British Museum than they go to Athens. Do you want... No, I reckon we should do it. We should just take the rest of the Partham and build it in England. I reckon we don't have enough of it That's the problem

I think they can't be trusted With the Parthenan itself So I think we take that And we build it On a hill somewhere I'm thinking We're saying you wipe your ass with pottery You cannot be trusted

To keep a Parthol I'm saying if it's 2025 And you're still wiping your ass And putting in an office bin You can't be trusted with anything Right So I reckon we build it It's somewhere in Gloucester

Right where you know It's not going to get vandalised lots of hills we build the Parthenan there So people can then Tourists can then do Stonehenge Pathanan in a day

Bish bashbosh All the old rocks we've seen Oh exactly yeah So like rock tourism You just put it all together Yeah We'd have like a sort of autistic tour package That we put together

Right So the Parthin right next to Stonehenge Dwarfing the Stonehenge Yeah exactly What else we'd want to steal pyramids Or straight swap They can have Stonehenge And we'll have the Parthenanin

Would you prefer the Parthenanin? I think it's more impressive Yeah I think so I've not I mean I've been to Athens to go to the island I've not really, like, seen any of the stuff. Right. So you're going to negotiate a deal that they get stolen in?

I think they should send me in. Yeah. Say, do you know what? We're now asking for the entire Parthenon. Yeah. I think asking is the wrong thing. You can have Stonehenge. I think taking.

I think you can only be trusted with Stonehenge. They'll try and wipe their ass with it. Yeah. Yeah. If I know anything, they'll smash it to shit. They'll be like, I can't swap the Parthenon on for some toilet paper. It's not toilet paper. It's Stonehenge, you idiots.

No, that's like Bolt buying's toilet paper. I need you to smash it to wipe my ass with it. I don't want to do that. Right. We should talk about the decline. Right. We've clearly covered the rise. We've got to cover everything.

The peak era. So the Peloponnesian War. Which is between Athens and Sparta? Yeah, this is big. Now, Sparta had already... Alpha Chads. Had already... They'd been to get...

The Sparta are big guys. I mean, they're all just psychotic. They're the... They're David. Goggins is what was Sparta. They're like, and also the reason why we have nothing of Sparta is because they weren't building any nice buildings. No, they were just killing everyone. They were just killing everyone. Everyone was David Goggins. I mean, they would like put their babies in the forest so they've come back stronger. Like it's like, pull yourself up while you're napping. They are optimising straps. Everything. They've got whoop monitors. They're drinking supplements. Up at 4 a.m. Yeah, athletic greens. They're those guys. Yeah. I imagine their plumbing is spectacular. I don't know. I mean, I don't think they give a fuck.

They're fucking, they're shitting in the air. They don't give a fuck. They're shitting on their enemies. Of course. They're using Athenians' heads to what they are. They're diogenetic. Yes.

They're shitting on people who's insult them. So, the Pelopnesian War breaks out when the, basically the Deelian League, which we did rush on last time. Well, we did. That's the bunch of... You can't say we didn't.

The bunch of city states. They form a league. The British are like the EU. Anyway, they start to get angry at Athens, because Athens is is like oh look at us we saw look at us we oh

and then to be honest we're so clever we shit in I bet the Spartans use some pretty inflammatory homophobic language probably did yeah probably called which obviously didn't mean what it does now probably called more pedos yeah it probably said a lot of nasty things

because if Athenians are all inventing philosophy and theatre and these guys you better believe it's some pretty colourful language they're using to describe look at these dirty bottom pedophiles Let's go invade. Spartan boys trained in the Agoge, the David Goggins

Yeah, the military style education program. The David Agoge's. Began at seven. So seven to 12, you're encouraged to use violence against each other, including sexual violence. Well, there you go. Listen.

So there's two quite, I mean, they're similar and they're different the Spartans and the Greek. They've got different approaches to the same problem. It's all Greek, isn't it? Right. Isn't it? So.

Boys were encouraged. to rape each other yeah right yeah um seldom bathed again uh given one cloak to year it's quite amazing that this is just like a city slightly north of athens athens inventing theater yeah and sparta are like right as soon as you turn eight you got to rape your brother yeah well that's quite it's quite great yeah again again it's quite great but do you think that back then then the impact of being pedophile would be less severe like do you think the fact nowadays it's like fuck me i've been i mean it's horrific but back then do you think it was like well everyone's doing this. Wait, wait, what were you about to say? Fuck me, I've been

paedophile. So who's this? Is this a victim of paedophilia? Yes. Fucking out, I've been paedafiled. Who's this goal? This sort of works at like Billingsgate market. Oh, fucking hell, got paedafiled, didn't I? I'd say the phrase I've been pedophiled probably stopped being used a hundred years ago. What I'm saying is, like back then, do you imagine that the impact of being sexually abused would have been much less blood? It's not abuse, is it? In those days? It's heavy petting. It's just a hug. But you, are you, are you feeling?

feeling that like I'm now, you know. Well, you have no idea what trauma means. You're every day you're potentially dying of plague. Everyone stinks. It's such a brutal life. It's probably what still wasn't great, but you got bigger fish to fry. It probably was more painful given that you were wiping your ass with pottery. Yeah, you know, like it's a different time is what I think.

So anyway, to plead, I mean, this has really been the golden age of bot-bots, doesn't it, this series? But the decline of Athens' golden period begins with the. The Peloponnesian War, 431, Athens and Sparta, that's a big conflict. It goes on for fucking ages, 30 years. But within a year, essentially the Athenian tactic was to defense, not offense. Because Athens had the best Navy. Sparta had to cross the water to get to them. They were just like, no, not getting in.

We're locking ourselves within the walls, right? So get everyone together, everyone in, from the countryside, everyone in, closing the doors, closing the gates, last one in. It's an Edinburgh Fringe Festival is going on, right? Yeah. then basically COVID happens because they're all packed in and COVID kills Pericles. It's like the great plague of Athens

is actually the first recorded ever plague in human history. Really? The first one that we know we have information about. Oh, fuck. Because also we should have touched on this given that we've done nearly two hours

but it's also the birth of historical writing. Herodotus. Herodotus and Eucydides. Eusidotides. You fucker me? Some dirty bum cunt. I don't know. Anyway, those two,

they start writing about history. Because Herodotus is considered the father of history. Yeah, he's on the rest of history. So he's the blame for this. He's the one with Dominic Sandbrook. Yes. Yeah, right. Sanbrook and Oroitus, they do the rest of history.

We follow the diogenes line. We're diogenes. Yeah, that is what this podcast is. Rested history has come from the long lineage of Herodotus. We're from the guy shitting in the theatre. Yeah, exactly. You can trace our roots back to that guy. So the plague starts, and what's quite funny is that they have,

they have so much information about it that they have no idea what it was because there's lots of schools of thought like was it typhus was it material was it whatever but basically one guy wrote down every symptom of anyone that had

a cold and has come up with this list which is like your dick fell off your head exploded your ears went down you went blind you had a headache you had a rash your wife cheated on you it's basically AIDS essentially

and it's unknown, it's like terrifying symptoms, everyone's dying, like the mobility rate's like 20%, 30%, and yet somehow it wipes them all out and then they just carry on fighting as part of the 20 years. Yeah. I mean, plagues, you know, the black death, there's still people who just fucking...

Get on with it, isn't it? Get on with it, who don't make such a big deal of it. Yeah. Average life expectancy in ancient Greece was 20 and 35. I mean, wow. You've got to pack a lot in. But I guess that's why is paedophilia

not paedophilia because if they live to their 30 then by the time they're 10 for us in our life it's like dog years that's like exactly exactly

child years I'd say yes right or tentatively say yes still bad yeah okay fine so that's what brings

down the golden age of Athens big big plague everyone's dicks fall off and then essentially that's in that's 404

is kind of the end of the golden age the philosophy all starts after that they go, we've been defeated by Sparta let's have a big think about things for a bit

and then that basically they start sitting on chairs to think and that slowly evolves into men sitting on chairs and not doing anything and that's Greece

as it is today. So, I don't know why you would but any more questions in the comments below I think we covered every I think we've essentially done the history of Greece

yeah in two hours. Pretty impressive for people who aren't from Greece to know so much. Exactly. Thanks for your support.

If you'd like to support the show more and get a bonus episode every week you can sign up to the Patreon and become a truther. You get a bonus episode every Friday. Other than that, thanks for listening. We're going to have a private conversation about how I got AIDS.

Next time. Bye-bye. Thank you.