Fin vs History - What You Do In Your Own Home Is All Of My Business | East Germany & The Stasi

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Introducing the stasi, the original love bombers. The GDR (Part One) The makers of Fin vs History are bringing you a new show! Introducing Paddy Will Help, the show that will solve all your problems, hosted by SNL UK’s Paddy Young! Find it here: https://open.spotify.com/show/033KELw8iArM2TMTAMkriK?si=GOeFl3qWQI2FzVHu4G605g The show for people who like history but don't care what actually happened.   For weekly bonus episodes, ad-free listening and early access to series, become a Truther and sign up to the Patreon  ⁠patreon.com/fintaylor    This episode of Fin vs History is brought to you by Surfshark.     Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code FVH for an extra 4 months at https://surfshark.com/fvh  Chapters: 00:00 - The Original Rose Garden 04:48 - Just In Case 10:01 - They’re In The Dust  13:01 - Aspirational Dad 17:14 - Genocide Takes Admin  19:36 - Not My Department 23:40 -  Stop Comparing Yourself 25:58 - America Is The Enemy 28:07 - Very Very German 32:04 - Nazi Paedophile Informants 35:45 - The Wall Of Smells 43:43 - Gay Nightclubs 49:15 - OG Lovebombing  53:40 - A Wall Is Built  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Scotia Bank. You're richer than you think. Welcome back to Finvest History. Joining me is Horatio Gould. I've been watching your sleep. And today we're talking about East Germany. The worst Germany ever got. For sure.

I mean, I love this topic. It feels like... Glorious topic. It feels like a counterfactual, but it happened. Do you know what I mean? Yes. It does feel like just a weird glitch. Yeah.

You're right. It's like a third of Germany becomes communist for about 50 years. What if? It's sort of like it never happened and it was like, imagine if the Nazis immediately became communist. That would never happen. But it did. It would never happen. But it did.

I would feel betrayed if that happened. But it did. It did happen. Also, what's interesting about the GDR is the GDR, as much as it's a weird kind of aberration many ways, it outlasted Nazi Germany, length of time, the Vimey Republic and the German Empire. What are you saying? I'm just saying that weirdly, and it's outlasted the current iteration of Germany thus far. Are you saying this is what Germany's meant to be?

I'm just saying as a distinct historical period, it's longer than any other iteration of Germany. Well, I find that disgusting because the problem is what is meant to be. because the problem with when Germany separates into two, my issue is that we're going in a backwards direction. This is the opposite of Anjolus. Yeah, okay. We had it. We had it. Yeah.

German and Austria was together. Right. And now not only are Austria separate. Yes. Germany are split up. What's happening? Guys, stay as one. You're all one piggy, porky people.

But, you know, sometimes, you know, if you're in a fight in a relationship, what you need is space to appreciate each other. so maybe this was a good bit of space to understand that they really do need to you know become one well yes and I take issue with the name German reunification because Austria

is still independent yeah and until Austria is reunited of course I see this as a split country tear down that wall tear down yeah I call Austria East Germany now

a bit of context World War II ends and Yolter, the big three, and they are big, Roosevelt, Churchill, Stalin. They're always sitting down because Roosevelt won't fucking stand up for once. Not even for the national anthem. I mean, it's an absolute disgrace.

Can you stop taking the knee the entire time, please? He's a black lives matter guy. He's an extremist. What did it? Was it polio he had? I don't know. Who's ever had polio? It was long COVID.

Oh, I see. Right. Yeah. Roosevelt was sat there at Yolta in his sunflower lanyard, whining. Roosevelt's favourite meal was fried chicken smothered in white gravy. That reads, that makes sense. So they meet up at Yolta in February 45 and they decide that after the war, which is very presumptuous, I mean, the war's still going on.

That they're going to split Germany into. It is presumptuous. I think Hitler's seeing that photo, that would have really riled me up. Can you have the decency to wait? or at least, you know. Can you just pretend that you think I might win? I might win. I still might win. The Battle of the Bulge.

Yeah. Now, so they decided they're going to split up Germany into these different zones of influence. Stalin was quite charming during this, right? Charmed Stalin. It was quite, this is very much coalition, the Rose Garden, Nick Clegg, David Cameron. This is the original Rose Garden.

It feels like there's an excitement, there's the air of possibilities. One of them is walking off. Who's joke walking off? I think. Well, it's not Roosevelt. I think it's Roosevelt's crawling off. Come back.

And someone's like, come back! And he's like, I can't get up. Well, actually, I watched, I was saying I was watching the World War II with Tom Hanks. And there is a moment where Roosevelt and Churchill meet for the first time in the war on a ship in the Atlantic. Yes. And Roosevelt really wants to stand up. And you see this footage of him just basically, like me and the ice spring with the kids just holding onto the side of a ship. And his legs just do not work at all.

well yeah and he's like but did he not know that like oh so he so well he could stand up is what I'm saying right right right he could stand up yeah and he did stand up in 1940 but Americans lazy

yeah bum bag sippy cup visor um so they they just yeah they all get on I mean Roosevelt wants fresh lemons for his martini so Stalin brings an entire lemon tree in

that's a touch of class I mean Stalin Stalin you charm me you charm me you charm me You charm me. This is probably the high point of American-Russian relations. For sure.

You'd say... Definitely. I mean, since. Well, hold on. At one bag, quit, the big three drank 45 toast to one another. So they're just high-fiving for days.

Yeah, and it's February. Endless high-five. You've not yet crossed the Rhine. Yeah. Can you have some... Because Potsdam didn't have this sort of vibes to it, did it? No, Potsdam was right.

Let's get down to it. Yeah, because it's power vacuum. It's opened up. I'll tell you what this is. This is the fucking train on the way to a stag do, isn't it? You're right. And Pottsdam's the train home Because now we need to divvy up

The split wiser's coming out Yeah Yeah Yeah So they weren't at Potsdam But Atley was And Truman was So it was still the big three leaders

You went on the stag too Yeah, went to Butler and Spoklyn Regis You went to Butler's Borgon region And you're completely right Not a slow Um Not for you've been in a sentence If it was slow

You know what you're there by him He loves to spend time in Butler's Boklyn's Boklyn Boklyn Regis yeah and I've always said the best thing about a stack do is the train ride there I couldn't agree more on the graph of enjoyment it peaks as you get off the train

it was electric sitting on there you're on a pub hurtling through the country that's what's amazing about it is that you're sat in a pub with blokes drinking pints is already pretty electric

when you're all facing each other and phones away and you're just drinking pints to but if you're also hurtling to a bigger pub basically yeah it's yeah it's It's amazing. Awesome.

No, it's not the Potsnan. It's the Potsdam conference. Yeah, sorry. That wasn't, that's not footage of... Atlia Truman and Sala were not all. Yeah. In the ruins of Nazi Germany, they're all turn their backs. Yeah, no.

The Ponsan conference. Potsdam is just north of Berlin, I think. It's in the environs of Berlin. And they decided to split Germany into four zones of influence. USSR will take East Germany. The US will take the south. Britain, we take the northwest, the industrial heartland. I mean, why have we not kept northwest Germany?

I know. So we had that for four years, do we? Four precious years. We never talk about the fact we had a quarter of Germany. Well, they never say that British troops are still actually stationed in Germany. So, in a way. Because they might kick off again. Just in case.

Just in case. So, I mean, this map that we're looking at right now, this is Hitler's worst nightmare, right? Yeah. To see this in this, this is like... He'd be spinning in his grave of its sort of. this. No, he's spitting in Brazil. Sorry, yeah.

He's tossing and turning and reeds de Janeiro. He's tangering in Brazil. But what he would have loved, and I found this very funny, is that, so in, so the GDR, the Eastern Republic doesn't start until, is it officially declared in 49? Yeah.

But in those four years before, where the, you know, the tensions are ratcheting up between the kind of allied bloc, which is Germany, France and America. France are lucky to get lost. They initially, they weren't allowed, ain't he? Yeah. And then they, oh, please, a please.

Oh, please, oh, monsieur. Well, I guess if you said it like that. Oh, fucking hell. And look at the map, they get a tiny sliver because you did fuck all. You collaborated. You should get fuck all. Completely. And also, they, they did better post-war than we did. So we just played our hand terribly. We gave the French waiting. If we had kept the Ruhr, we have the industrial heartland. We should have reparations from France for collaborating. Yes. They should have rebuilt fucking, why are we so polite and chummy with them? Oh, it's awful. Yeah. Anyway. Who's the real enemy?

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Berlin is also split into these zones, which obviously becomes the sort of crux point of the Cold War. But fascinating, in those four years, right, now bear in mind that all the concentration camps are either in Poland or East Germany. They're all immediately re-appropriated as Soviet camps.

For Nazis. Some for Nazis, some for the Liberals. some for liberals, some for anyone they don't like, and 50,000 people there's a Liptard concentration camp. Right? 50,000 people after Nuremberg

die in concentration camps in Germany. That's great. Isn't that crazy? No one talks about that, 50,000. Right. So, and they, but they're not, and I was having this, I was researching this yesterday,

and Gemini, AI, was very keen to make out, they were not exterminated, they died, of neglect and I said well I know how I'd

rather die what exterminated exterminated well because you you're well there's a tent there

yes yeah you know so it's just like when you just left alone to rot what do they

is it like on Sims where you you fast forward and kill someone without and so there's loads of

loads of libtards going oh let's go turn up and they're just pissing themselves oh

oh so so they put them in the pool and took away the ladder, basically. Then, this is amazing. A survivor recollects, the guards would tell them

there wouldn't be water coming out the showers, but gas only for them to be greeted by warm water. Which is cricket if they're Nazis, I feel. I think that is fair play. Yes, you're right. But if you're a libtard, I think that's pretty... Actually, it's even funny if you're a libtad, to be honest, that's fucking hilarious.

If you're James O'Brien, you're like, yeah, watch out, there's gas in there. As I've said before, I would, if I was a guard... So quite smug. the guards at this. Yeah. If I was a guard in 1947 Auschwitz, I'd be like,

well, watch, there's gas coming out of the show, then I'd do a fart and close the door. Yeah, that's good. That's what I do. Yeah. That's what I do. Because, you know, you want to have... Dutch oven.

Yeah, exactly. Dutch oven them. Because, you know, we lighten the place up a bit. Yeah. It's been a pretty grim five years for Auschwitz. Well, it's Gallo's humour, isn't it? Yeah. We've got rid of the gallows now.

So it's just humor. It's just good humour. Yeah, anyway, and there is a fascinating league. So Germany's a fucking, because post-war in 40s Germany, it's a complete fucking mess, right? Yes. It's completely obliterated, the industry's collapsed. No one knows what's going on. So this five years...

They're in the fucking dust. You don't really hear much. There's no music that's coming out in 48, 40. There's no music. There's barely food. Do you know, like there's not culturally, nothing seems to happen post in the last 40 years. It's just all trying to... It's getting to the 50s.

It's just a fuck happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sat on the end of your bed with a sock in your hand, staring at the middle distance. Yeah. Like for five years, what the fuck just happened? Yeah. East Germany, from the off,

is Stalin basically doesn't really want it. No. He uses it essentially as reparations for the war. So he extracts billions of dollars of like, he think he takes whole factories. Because he doesn't want to be part of the USSR because he wants a buffer. He doesn't want, he doesn't want his border to be with the West.

No. So he just wants to be part of the US. a buffer state. Yeah, a neutral zone. Yeah, exactly. A DMZ, I suppose. And so he just takes, he takes wholesale factories into the USSR.

A third of East Germany's industrial plants are extracted in the first two years. About $10 billion worth of agricultural and industrial products. So from the off, their economy is fucked. Yeah, the GDR is quite an interesting because it's the most successful communist country of any communist country,

like the most effectively run. Yes. And also it was, it's the worst part of Germany and it got fucked the most by having its resources torn from it. So it is quite like an interesting model. Social experiment. Yeah, exactly.

And also, in many ways, you know, communism is German. You're right. If you, the, the perfect country to do communism is Germany. Like Russia, it didn't make sense. The Russian spirit is not communist in my, it's this romantic. It's a nihilist. It's not romantic, nihilistic. But the Germans, the order, the processes.

of people. That part of the German spirit is quite communist. Well, this is what's fascinating about these sort of the early years, right? So the tensions pretty much start straight away. Communists under Weimar and Hitler, they had been persecuted.

And so many of them flee into exile. A man called Walter Ubrich, who is the architect of the GDR. He manages to survive both. He'd been born in 1893 in Leipzig, East German. and after a bout of diphtheria as a teenager, his voice was left permanently squeaking. Hello.

Hello. So he was five foot five. He was never going to be a kind of cult of personality guy. But he ends up being the architect of the GDR. It's another Tom Wamsganne sort of situation where he becomes one of the only two leaders of the GDR. Of their long history, it's only really two guys who ever do it. So he's a huge, maybe the biggest figure in the whole of this history.

He seems to just kind of, when they're picking, who's going to be leader, there's so few people left because they've had to denazify the whole place. The communists were already purged when the Nazis are in power. Yes. That's to be pro-Soviet communist who's left, who haven't been purged by Stalin as well.

Yeah, because he went to Moscow and then loads of German communists get purged by Stalin. Yeah, because he hates Germans. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So he ends up as the last man standing and he's the most senior person who survives all the purges.

It's kind of Claudius, similar as well. It's just sort of the kind of... Only a quarter of German exiles in the same world. He survived at all. Yeah. So eventually he gets sent by Stalin to the Spanish Civil War. Yeah. So it's not a way to find.

It's not a meritocracy when it's last man standing, is it? No, it's not. Yeah. So he ends up in Moscow, Uberrits in 37, and he survives the purges. And then in 46, Stalin basically, or maybe it's early than that, he sends... He's a puppet for Stalin. He sends Uberit. He goes, well, you're the one guy left.

Yeah. You go back to East. the Soviet sector, the Ullbrich group, sounds like a very brutally impenetrable synth band. Yeah, so it sounds like the kind of music Stuart Lee listens too. Yes, and then write to two-hour show about, what do you mean you didn't get it? Help me out, Stu. So people say that he was cold and ruthless.

This is how lacking human warmth he was. When he goes into exile in the 30s, he abandons his wife and daughter. When he returns in 45, he doesn't contact either of them. Just divorced. did they get divorced in 49. German communist. Like, that's a double, double cold. That is aspirational, dad.

Yeah. I'm going, I'm back. Not going to look you up. Not going to look you up. So he's a Stalinist. And when he comes back, they end up forming this German Republic, this GDR,

the German Democratic Republic in 49. And then, that then starts this amazing propaganda war between East Germany and West Germany about, who are the more Nazi? Who's the true air of the Nazi legacy? Yeah.

And because the Germans are like, the GDR, like, we're anti-fascist, we're communist. So we're cleaning up. So even though they've got the camps and they're shoving, I mean, they are shoving some Nazis in there. Yeah. But they're also employing Nazis that are actually, like, quite useful, but keeping it quiet. Whereas West Germany under, I don't know if it's really Brandt or the one before, West Germany, they go, guys you know people in glass houses

we've all we've all had a mad time if we're going to get rid of all the Nazis they blare it they get around the negotiating table guys we all feel they good Friday it yeah the original good Friday agreement because they basically are like if we throw all these guys out you're getting rid of the I mean these guys are very good at paperwork at processing you know what are the transferable skills

that the Nazi state have that aren't racist. Yeah. You know, genocide takes a lot of admin. Okay? And if you're going to throw that baby out with the bathwater. It shows you can wake up early. It shows you could, you know, schedule.

Yeah. Scheduling. These are all things that currently... And I do think with the German people, the British government, in general, you can view the Nazis as unethical. Sure, that's your politics. I don't want to get political.

That's not going to bog down in the ethics of it. Yeah. But the German spirit, you just need to point them in the right direction. They're a toddler. Clearly. The Germans could sort of do any system very effectively. Yeah. And the most effective communist, the most effective fascist.

Yes. And in many ways, it's been arguably the most effective capitalists. In some ways. In some ways. It's just where do you point that wind up toy? Totally. So forget about, yeah, fine, they'll point in the wrong direction, whatever. Pick them up and turn them in a direction.

It was our fault that we didn't turn around for 12 years. That way. You can do that with toddlers. Yeah. Toddlers just, they just walk. You just pick them up, turn around. They'll just go the other way. It's fashion.

Very, very easy. With the Italians, they're asleep on a chair and you're just changing the direction the chair's facing. It doesn't change anything. They're just asleep. Italian communists, Italian, fascists. Yeah, exactly. Fundamentally on a chair facing different directions.

They're Italian. It doesn't matter what the word after Italian is. They're Italian. Now, in March 48, the Western Republic is declared. That's when Britain, France and US ally all their Western zones. And so the GDR is formally founded on the 7th of October, October 7th, 1949. Shall we place 1949?

Okay. I'd say this is... So is this... Is this before Britain gets... Just before Britain gets the nuclear weapon? Or do we do it?

I think... I'd say... Sorry, I'd say it's after hot sauce is invented. Right. And it's before Hillary Clinton says she's got hot sauce in her back. Right. Yes. Which gets used against her.

even though, speaking to people who know her, apparently she does true love Hot Sauce. Because people saw it as a way of her trying to get the black vote. Yes. But it's actually... What I'm meant to do, I really like Hot Source. I have it in my bag. But it's probably the most...

7,000 BC. Okay, I didn't realize... The Aztecs invented it in 7,000 BC. I was going very... I was about to try and get a very close one. Please, please. And you just... You just...

With a 7,000 new birth... I assumed it was invented in the 19th century. Right. source. But I'm thinking as a westerner. Of course, the Aztecs got there 10,000 years ago. Okay, maybe... Okay, so...

Okay, no, you're right. So we acquired nuclear weapons in 52. Yes, before that. And I guess it's after... Japan acquired them for a second. Yes. There was a millisecond where Japan had nuclear weapons before they exploded. Well, it was in Japan.

There was a nuclear weapon in Japan, I guess. Yes, exactly. it was in airspace and they went oh we have nuclear weapons oh no if someone had caught it and it hadn't been a drop

then they'd have one they'd have one so that's all you had to do by the way Japan yeah you know you gotta hold your hands together pull into your chest yeah

is it the worst drop catch of all time I mean it's coming out the sky fast but is it the worst is it the worst drop catch for all time Japan catchers

win matches anyway so Now, 49 GDR is formed and it is recognised immediately as by socialist countries and the Arab bloc. West Germany in 55

of this thing called the Hausstein Doctrine which means that no one is allowed to recognise East Germany, I think. Or they only recognise countries that don't recognise East Germany, something like that. Anyway, so immediately, it's tense. 32% of public administrators in 54 in the GDR are formed

are Nazis. They refuse remuneration requests from Holocaust survivors. Phenomenal. This is phenomenal. This is an interesting one because I do like this. Because I guess they have a different management, isn't it? Under new management. That's what they're saying. Generally, under new management. And people are calling up

saying you owe us and stuff. It's like, well, that wasn't us. We're not on my shift. I wasn't there. You want a guy before this? Yeah. Under new management. How many times? To be honest, if you get his number, I'd like some renumination as well. To be honest. Yeah. Because I still got some stuff to talk about as well.

And also, you're talking like a bit of a libtard, and I know exactly what I'm going to send you. Do you want to go back? Yeah. East Germany insists it's not the legal successor to Nazi Germany, so refuses all conversation requests from Holocaust. That's a tricky one. That's a tough one.

Yeah. But then also, West Germany are like, no, we're not doing that. That's the ultimate when you call someone and you're speaking to customer service. No, not my department. Who is it then? Oh, can I speak to?

You killed all my family. He killed every single. Well, I didn't. You want to speak to Pauline in West Germany? Yeah, put me on hold. Hello. Right, I'd like some protocols. No, no, you want East Germany.

I've just spoken to them. I've just spoken to them. Now, initially, the economy in the GDR is fucked. Okay. It's very bad. Because Stalin has not really wanted, he doesn't want it. He's just, it as a buffer zone and but all bricht is an is a committed Stalinist yeah so do you remember when

we did Russian Revolution part of the what is so impenetrable of Russian Revolution is that everyone's differences of opinion are about how quickly socialism should arrive so Lenin was like smash the state go straight to it whereas I think much foreplay before we lost totally whereas Trotsky was a was a sort of like easy into foreplay yeah you wanted to at least try second base before you jump tantric sort of stuff before you bum them basically yeah exactly

um yeah Albrecht is very very horny and wants to just shove it in yeah clothes on clothes on poke it through the fly this fucking rat loose

get it get it so much so that even I think even in the USSR they're like you need to slow down

because he's like he's like he's such a committed Stalinist that in the USSR he's been in exile he's been like oh brilliant five year plans blah blah blah you know secret police let's do it all and it's it's not working at all there's no i mean

germany's obviously ruined but there's ration cars last for much longer than any other um nation they're also always comparing themselves to west germany yes they've got an inferiority complex from the off but you've got to stop comparing yourself to others yeah you do you know there's a problem in life it's like focus on what you're doing that should be enough we're not it's a it's a dance not a race we watched a video a motivational video with Idris Elba saying that success is like swimming where you want to... I can't do it.

Yeah. I watched that video. Yeah. It was really motivational. So it means top swimmers you're not meant to look where anyone else is. You're meant to only just focus on your own. You just head down. Yeah.

So don't compare yourself to others East Germany. Comparison is the thief of joy. So said Thomas Jefferson. What else did Thomas Jefferson do? Well, you probably said that slaves are the thief of Zeefe of America. This slave is the thief of my come. He was working.

He's workshopping his quotes. This is the other interesting thing about East Germany is that it's, you're right, it's the most successful, in some respects, communist state has ever been. And yet, because it is comparing itself to a capitalist country that started at the exact same time

with the exact same level of ruin, it will always be remembered as a sort of failure. Yes. Even though I think reading this history, as much as it was very bleak and there's loads of problems it is quite a remarkable state in some ways

what they managed to achieve under those pressures the GDR is under this economic pressure because in West Germany there is the Wierchafwanda the economic miracle now you'll remember from the World Cup series in the early 50s

West Germany win the World Cup it's a booming country they maintain the industrial heartland the Ruhr the kind of they get an all-American aid and American Is it?

Offer aid to East Germany, but Stalin says you can't take it. Because this is when America are giving the world aid, not AIDS. Yes. To place this as well. Right. So America obviously gives the world AIDS in the 80s. Yeah. And we said, no, no, no.

We wanted AIDS. Yeah, yeah. So the Soviets had refused the Marshall Plan of 1948, which was the Americans basically saying we're going to rebuild Europe. Well, the Marshall Plan, I get quite bitter here about the Marshall Plan. Yeah. No, we got fucked up. We got completely fucked.

Yeah. Because they put a stipulation in it that we could have it. as long as we spent the money on a nuclear weapon. Yeah, I mean, doing post-war history, the more and more I see America as the enemy, to be honest. Yes. Because they fucked our development. They did it on purpose because they wanted our colonial assets, right?

They wanted a takeover. And the fact that Germany, Japan, France, they all had these economic booms and we had the fucking 70s. It's because they made us do a nuclear weapon. We paid off our debts to America in the Blair years. Or shocking. Absolutely shocking.

And they just forgive the Nazis. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. it. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Take as much money as you need. And then your best name.

And then they took their scientists. Yeah. They took all the sneaky scientists and invented fucking LSD. It's ridiculous. It is all. America is the real villain of the 20th century. Yeah, piss me off.

Anyway, so the Soviets, they say we're not going to have the Marshall Plan. Yeah. We don't want it. Which means they're very quickly just drowning in their economy. There is an uprising on the 17th June. Something I didn't realize is that. And we'll talk about the,

wall more on the next episode. Yes. But it's the, the border is open until the 60s, which I didn't really realize. In my head, it went up immediately. No, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but so people are just leaving constantly.

Yeah, so there's a big uprising in 1953, a million people on the streets. Stalin had died a couple of months before. Yeah. get involved in these protests, but the Red Army declares a state of emergency just rolls in the tanks, because Ulbricht, all he's got at this point

is the USSR as like his sort of guarantor. 55 people are killed in these protests, many of the leaders have rounded up. And so as a kind of response to this, they realize that they need to up their internal state security and they can't rely on the USSR forever. And so they start to really kick on with their state security service

that had been founded in 1950 that's now known as the Stasi Probably the most infamous and effective secret police of all time Yes And lots of people have tried it in different ways Also very, very German Yes, incredibly

It's just a very deadly mix Yes. Authoritarian communism blended with a German spirit With a German sort of perversion Yes, because I guess What was the Russian? The NKVD NKBD

So obviously they had, It was semi-based on that as a model. Yeah, because Ulbricht is taking everything from the Soviet Union. But Russian secret police, I guess it's more corrupt. It's more, you know, what's the subtext here? Do you know what I mean? It's like, what can you do for me?

There's a lot of that in the Russian spirit, right? With the Germans, it's not really subtext. It's more, I've got 15 pages of documents about his bowel movements. Yeah, you know, it's the attention to detail is second to us. The data gather is extraordinary. Yeah. And it's all about very, very... Hold on.

There is no secret police force in Tonga. That is interesting. Charlie. To Tongans do not have a secret police. Where are you going? They need one. What did you say? Where are you going?

What's that? What is that meant to be a secret police? Is that what the secret police do? Where are you going? Is that you being a secret police officer? He's been a Tongan secret police officer. So the Stasi had been founded in 1950 by a man called Eric Milker. Right.

Now, he's a fascinating figure, right? So he had fled Germany in 31. He was a kind of communist agitator. He'd killed two policemen in 31 and then fucked off, went to Moscow, basically learned the Czechic, NKVD terror attacks, then went to the Spanish Civil War as like a sort of secret agent to try and stir shit up. Yeah, because obviously we all did the rise of the Nazis at school

and that period where the fascist, the communists are fighting in the 30s, is a lot of, would they repopulate East Germany? high command with the people who were involved and all that sort of stuff. But they're also the only people that had survived. Yes. I mean, you look at what they had to survive for like 20 years. They had to survive. Yeah.

It's such a rare. Paramilitary clashes in Weimar, Germany. You had to survive the Nazi clamping down on the Stalin's purge. Stalin purges. The Spanish Civil War. Yeah. I mean, so these people, when you're looking at the apparatus of the state as to why it's so paranoid and so all-consuming.

Yeah, but also anyone with any sort of charisma would have been purged. by Stalin. So you're left with the... You're left... To be honest, it's a nation of Eichmanns. Yeah. It's led by an Eichmann. They're all Eichmann.

They are all Eichmann. There's no charismatic leader, really. No. There's no Mengalo. Yeah. Not even a gerbils, really. No. Before the next track starts,

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That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. So, well, this is fascinating. Goebbels and Ulbricht had debated each other in the early, maybe late 20s or early 30s. Yeah. I mean, man, how the West has fought. 31, Ulbricht and Goebbels appear on the same stage for a planned debate.

Albrecht speaks first and stirs up his supporters with his... And then after his speech, the communists sing the international so loudly, the Goebbels can't be heard, so the Nazis just start a fight. That is a real lovely analogy. Absolutely. Fascists, if you're losing an argument, turn it to violence. A fight you. Yeah.

And the communists drown out. Any other opinions. La, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So, yeah. Now, Milka, he is the man who, he runs the Starzy from 53, I think, until the very, very end.

So it's all him the entire time. So he's the longest serving security chief in Eastern Europe. He had said at one point... He's the gossip king. There were six types of people and five of them were hostile to the state. That's what you want. That's what you want.

But my point is that... So the people who run the GDR, they are the least charismatic, but also the most paranoid. Yeah. And they are the kind of cockroach survivors. Yes. 100%.

Of the sort of the middle part of the 20th century, which is why the GDR is so paranoid, Snoopy, like obsessed with other people's lives. But also, I guess the comparison is to sort of the Russian model, but Russia's this huge superpower. Yeah. Whereas the GDR is actually a tiny country that people are not fishing about in the same way.

They're sort of a little bit left. 80 million people. Yeah, they're more left to their own devices in a way. It's sort of like, you know, those kind of private schools where paedophiles roam because no one's checking on them. Private schools, yeah. Yeah. But no one's checking on them because it's like, there's just a small private school on the

South Coast, you know. Yes. But then you also, you have pedophile informants. Yes. Which is what the Stasi did. Yes. You have people in the private school. You're a Nazi paedophile performance, probably.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's a terrific time. It's Paris in the 20s. It's weird, win. You're a Nazi paedophile. Win, win, can I just shake your hand? So at its peak, the Stasi employed 91,000 full-time surveillance officers and then 170,000 informers who were called IMs,

mitabitis, informal collaborators. So one in six people work for the Stasi. So if you threw a party in the GDR and invited 12 guests, statistically one of them was an informant. This basically means that in East Germany, you can't really do anything without being found out. And there's some amazing stories of the informants. So firstly, what I was saying about this being a very German security service is that they built, they're obsessed with data. And Germans being German, they built an archive. of smells.

Yes. So they have, basically they take everyone's farts on a jar and they store them in a massive library of smells. Yeah.

So that they can Charlie's Flatsen Archive of Smells. Yes, it is. The Starzy Archive of Smells. And they then, so they can train sniffer dogs

to track you down if they decide that they want to get you. It's pragmatic, it's cold, but it's also perverse simultaneously. Yeah, very German.

There's like a logic to it which is kind of unromantic and cold, but it's still just a bit. There's something a bit... It's hot farts in a jar. It's fundamentally it's still kinky. How cold

and unromantic and detached can you be about collecting... Farts in a jar? An old woman's farts in a jar. You never know. We might need it later. Yes. Just in case. 79 onwards it built an archive of odour samples stored an airtight glass jars. And the last known use in Germany was 2007

when the federal prosecutor took odour samples from anti-G8 activists. Fucking hell. They still got this information. They're still dipping in. to the wall of smells. The wall of smell? Was it Brian Eno's wall of sound?

But it's the wall of smells. I just imagine it's this big fuzzy war. And you've gone a different journey. But yeah, I mean, it's like I've always said, the worst thing after a big stinky shit is to try and cover it up with potpourri and air freshener. Just let one smell, please. One smell at a time.

Anything else is. It's too much. Yeah. Yeah. They surveil everyone. They bug her phones, cars. They open letters. They secretly film people.

There's an amazing photograph of a Stasi person photographing a CIA person who's photographing him. Yeah, which kind of defines the vibe of the Cold War. Yeah. It's guys down in front of... Spy Central. Yeah. It's just taking photos scared that you're going to start World War III. And what's amazing is that no one really knows, or rather, they didn't really, after the 60s, they don't really do much, all this information.

They have this very brutal first phase the Starzzi where they sort of they kidnap people and they put them into this jail and then they're just collecting data They're just collecting data Yeah So when there's amazing stories that come out

When they open the archives in 91 Because there's more written By the Starzzi than the whole of German literature Yeah There's more words from like the Middle Ages To World War II There's an amazing story of a woman called Vera Lansfeld who's a German

politician and she discovered in 1992 that her husband of 11 years had the entire time been informing on her and had been telling the Stasi like what her psychological weaknesses were what she was like in bed when she was on her period yeah just complete like complete documentation yeah she then divorces him straight away and he goes well I'm actually a Jew so I support the GDR because I think it's a response to Auschwitz right which then you know he's just the Kevin Spacey I'm gay defence

I mean it's an impenetrable defence because what she meant to go yeah I'm gay actually fuck fuck I don't understand that culture yeah you know it is it's different yeah it is different

you know men harass women putting a hand on the knee you're sucking off strangers in public toilets I don't understand the rules I don't know if that's a good or bad thing what yeah what what help me I'm blind

you know the rules are different it's a different game does it count if I'm blind maybe I'm blind and gay that's the only better Kevin's base defense I'm blind oh right fine

you're just trying to shake their hand this is also fascinating the Stasi youth right so bear in mind they put a lot of Hitler youth boys and girls into concentration camps for being Hitler youth which is a bit you know

they're teenagers we all think weird things when we're 15 right they then start the Stasi youth not the Stasi youth they start the GDR youth and they have a salute right there's a slightly too

close. So it's this. Yeah. So it's basically a Hitler salute that's been bent at 45 degrees. Yeah, that's... It's close. This is why it's a counterfactual. It's weird.

It's AI. What if the Germans became communist, but it actually all happened. Yes. It's image. And also if you lived through, if you're like a 90-year-old woman in the 80s,

what you've lived through, the German Empire, the Weimar Republic, Nazi Germany and communist Germany. Yeah. And then reunification. if you live to like 91, 92. But they're not living to see Austria becoming part of it again.

Hopefully we will. I hope so. So yeah, they have this salute which is just sort of like a right angle hit the salute and it's just a bit, it's a bit close for comfort. But this is again, this is fascinating because the East Germans are like, we're communists or we're not fascists

and then in West Germany, that's where they start saying, well, actually you're totalitarian. Definitely. And that's the shared language. So they try and move it away from fascism to fascism, Communism, you're all the same.

It's about totalitarianism. Yes. Because that argument starts in the sort of 70s. Because East Germany, in a way, is more anti-Nazis than West Germany, but it has more of the same fixtures of Nazi regime than West Germany. There's more people working in, West Germany. Gestapo, Stasi. Yeah.

West Germany's fascinating because they basically just go, la la la, la, nothing happened. Just give everyone the jobs. Ignore it. Otherwise we'll never get anywhere. And then when the next generation comes in at the end of the 60s, there's this German word, I can't remember what it's called, it's mad, mad, long, basically means reckoning with your past. Right. And there's Fritz Bauer, who's the, the attorney from the Eichmann series, he's done a series of trials off the back of the Eichmann trial in the 60s. It's called

Vaggenheitigun. They, that's when suddenly the new generation, like, well, hang on, what are you doing the war? Right. And then so the 70s, really brand, who is the Chancellor of West Germany, he falls to his knees at the Warsaw Ghetto Memorial in Poland. And that's like a huge moment. What did he do? Well, he was the Prime Minister of West Germany. Wait, so why is he falling to his knees?

Basically is a way of saying sorry. Because... Charlie just... No, he's not sucking off the Warsaw Ghetto. He's trying to make his reparations. It would not be the same thing if he got down his knees and just... It's the least I could do. I didn't know what to do

What do you say So I just got my knees and started sucking it off No he's So until What's he feeling emotionally overcome about About the fact that he didn't Denazify as much he should have

It's more that the culture shifts So from a period of like Let's let's park this That's the photo iconic photo in Germany Right It's been edited out of that Is a guy with his dick out in his mouth

Yeah very good the war so what this exposes Ikeman exposes the sort of cold bureaucracy of the Holocaust and actually everyone's understanding the Holocaust comes from that trial and then in Germany

they have this sort of series of trials by Fritz Bauer Is it post Eichmann? Yeah in the 63 Is it a response to Eichmann? Yeah and I think it's called the Saxony camp trials Anyway they then

They thems They then Germany has to reckon with the Holocaust culturally because there's a new generation of people who are learning about it from the Eichmann trial who are going well hang on they're doing the math here they're going

were you're 50 you were you were 30 in the 40 what the fuck were you doing? I mean that's what we're doing now we looked up to Kookel's fucking granddad you know we're still doing it now it never end that's the word about this word for gang and heights per Vedic and whether

it never ends i.e always find out who's related to a Nazi yeah right what's one thing the Stasi is very this is very interesting they how much how they infiltrate the gay scene in

East Germany. Yeah. Because this is the thing, because they view all of this kind of counterculture as deeply threatening and they're very uptight and conservative but they're also unbelievably nosy. Yes. So they're very like, it's not that conservative thing as like, I don't even want to hear about it. It's like, it's disgusting.

It's a threat, but what are you guys doing? What you do in your own home is, fucking my business. That's what it is. Whenever you're doing your own home, I want to fucking know about it. I want to know about it. I want to tell me. It is, it's you in Burkheim. basically. What are you doing over there?

Can I come on watch? That's fucking disgusting. Don't stop. It's fascinating, isn't it? The socially conservative curtain twitcher. A astonishing combination. That's absolutely disgusting.

Can I film it and just keep it in a library and can I take your farts in a jar? So what they did is the gay scene, so there was something called the homosexual interest group in Berlin, right? Which gets set up. And then the stars are immediately like, fuck,

we've got to know about this. Because they're always think that, Their main enemy is subversive elements. Because the whole regime is so insecure. To be gay is to be subversive. Yes. Okay, in this day and age. And interestingly, East Germany, they legalize or decriminalize homosexuality

earlier than West Germany. And but what they do with that when they say, oh, you're all allowed to be gay, they then fucking blackmail. They infiltrate all the dogging hotspots in East Germany. And then black catch people. blackmail them saying you have to work for us now because otherwise we'll tell everyone that you're gay.

Yeah. Right. They even open gay nightclubs in the 80s. What stars do you run gay night clubs? State-sponsored gay clubs. Unbelievable. And then they're, but they fill with cameras and they're bugging it.

Yeah, so good. So basically they think that it's getting out of hand because if you're basically, their logic goes that if you're gay in a society that doesn't accept that, then you're inherently sneaky and good at spying. Yeah. So we should use that for the state.

But also, you're not to be trusted. It's a nation of glory holes, but on the other end it can be someone spying on you. A nation of glory holes. It is. Because there's people with the holes who are spying on you. Get out! They're either sticking knobs through there or they're surveilling you. They are. They are. Totally are.

Now let's just go through some of their methods because they had this tactic. Basically, after the Berlin Wall goes up, the kind of brutal first phase at the Stasi starts to ease off because they're always aware of looking bad in the West because they're always comparing themselves to the West

they don't want to look bad so they start they move away from being the more physical torture methods and they move towards this thing called Zazet Song Yeah they get into chick shit which is This is chick gaslighting On a state Yeah they move away from like blokey stuff

To yeah girls shit Yeah they move from nonfiction to fiction So this is psychological pressure This is teenage girl stuff. Zazet Sung translates as decompositional disruption. It attacks your mental stability, your self-confidence, your reputation,

your family life, a person's ability to continue. Yeah, it is. And you can't win. Because they will just constantly think you're crazy, you're losing your mind, and then if that doesn't work, they'll call you a paedophile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He raped me.

Right, brilliant. I'm gay. Doesn't work. It doesn't work. Kevin Spacey defense. That's the only thing you've got. That's all you got. So, Jürgen Fuchs, who's one of the best known victims,

described it as an assault on the human soul. This is where the Stasi would sneak into your house, and they would just change all the clocks to be wrong by like two hours. They'd move some furniture. They'd change the brand of tea. Make your life uncanny and weird. And you walk in and be like, it's the first third of a horror film. Yeah.

But everything's just a bit off. But the entire time. Yeah. They changed the brand of tea that you drank to make you think you were going mad. Yeah. But they'd also live. leave traces. I'm piss in their pants.

Or like, I just shit in their pants. What, in their drawers? Yeah. So, where they put them on and be like,

I sweat myself. What? I shat myself and then didn't clean the pants. Or just leave skid marks in every pair of pants. I think that's a bit better, I think.

Yeah. It's doing shit in so much pants. Because in the drawer. Yeah, yeah. But just if you keep myself. I don't remember. I tell you what you,

you go through someone's washing and you leave a skid mark in every pair of their pants. Yeah. And they just, start thinking. Or you change all their pants to female pants. So they're like, what?

Do I like wearing it? Victims would then sound paranoid when they try and explain what's going on. And so this is what's amazing about. It's in a horror film when you're like trying to explain to the police that you think and then they don't believe you. It's the exact same thing. They were trying to trap people. They engineer situations to steer people into criminal acts.

Bear in mind that one in six people. in the state are like collaborating with the state that's because the state have compromise on them so they're getting husbands to spy on wives when the archives open it is amazing the amount of divorces that spike

because people realize that their husbands have just been basically gossiping on everything the case of Vera Langsfell that politician I mentioned earlier she would always get worried about the start taking her kids and their husband told them that

and said that she's particularly vulnerable to that when she's on the third day of her period. And then they jail her for being a protester in the 80s or something. And then they wait to the third day of a period then say, oh, we're going to take your kids if you don't, tell us what you're planning. It's creepy, though.

Yeah, and then she only finds out five years later and her husband. Yeah, they are period tracking. It's really odd. That's none of your business. So they use these thing called Romeo agents, right? which is where they would send men, not Romeo Beckham,

they would send men to try and seduce low-level female administrative staff with esteem issues. Which rarely happens that way around. You normally send in the women. But these brave men. Do you enact it? No.

No. So, Romeo agents were trained in psychology and etiquette and they prioritised active listening, patience and attentiveness. Love bombing. Yeah, state love bombing. There's a story of a woman who was working

as like a secretary in the American embassy in East Germany, in Berlin maybe, in the Soviet sector. And a guy starts love bombing her, and then they get married, and then she's giving him gifts, and then she finds out 10 years later that he's already got a wife and family, in all the gifts she's been giving them,

she's giving it to her. I mean, it's astonishing the level of like infiltration. No. Yeah. And that would make you go mad. They think that people have, there's a name for a form of PTSD that only East Germans have

because their idea of reality was completely compromised. They think there's about 300,000 to half a million victims of the Shazi. Some of you'll think that they cause cancers and physical illnesses. What is it, Charlie? How important do you think trust is in kind of romantic relationships? Well, I think this level of mistrust is Yeah, it's damaging, I'd say Is it, it's all sexy or is it just kind of fuck?

Is it sexy? The idea that This is such a mess. I don't think it I think the problem is you find anything sexy Because you can all say this is a mess, isn't it? Yeah, you're like your wife of 10 years Never loved you

And what's the stars Oh, this is such a fucking mess. Who even are you? No, nothing's really. Let's fuck. I think you just say that with anything, don't you? Maybe, yeah. I think you're just horny.

I mean, this also explains why Germany is the way it is now. Totally. It's just so scrambled. This is such a mess. Let's put Robert Fist up my ass. Yes, Charlie. Did I tell you about on field, do you know, field? Yeah, yeah, the king cap, yeah.

I was trying to be kind of, I would try and be non-threatening on there. So I said I was bisexual, which I kind of am, but it was more of a phase at this point. And I put my thing on, men as well as women and and 95 out of 96 of them were men um but i don't want to just go to the pub and like chat about a bonn the hall i might kiss your knob if uh you know we're on pills and it's and it's dark but i'm not i'm not going pub with you so that's on the kinsie scale of like quite gay very gay super gay you're only at the gay level where if you're in a vest in a nightclub on on

mdMA you might do it but you're not gay enough that you could talk about fief with a with a guy and I'll chat about fever with you. It's fascinating how when homosexuality and traditional masculinity intersect in that you want to be gay in a very hyper-masculine way in that I want to be like wearing a string vest busting fags doing pills. Yeah, yeah. Don't say that. That's incredibly offensive.

No, I didn't mean busting fags in the 50 cents. The starting were busting fags. It must be said. No. I mean, you want to be smoking cigarettes being basically Ray Winston. They're going,

yeah, I'll fucking suck you off. As if it's like the height of aggression, an aggressive way. You don't want to be canoodling a guy in a big sweater in autumn talking about the colours. But I guess the point you're trying to make, though,

is that like the kind of real, like, blokiness of like a, you don't want a straight guy to talk about, who knows about, you know, the Aston Villa top scorers of the 2012 season. that was a massive turn off. That does not turn me on.

No. I want like kind of a little, a little schmawley sort guy. Schmauly. What's that? I don't know, just like something like less, I don't want like Trevor.

I want Schmull, not Trevor. Schmool? Schmool. Fucking Schmool. Is he a small German man? I don't know. Do you know someone called Schmull? Yeah.

Or do you know, do you fancy? I mean, this happened on, I don't know if it was on the other podcast, but we were talking about like male crushes and we're talking about celebrities right Charlie brought up a guy he saw on Instagram with like

2,000 followers who lives a couple of three years away from you have mentioned this before yeah is he called is a guy who could easily be listening who's just like a guy who you're basically is he called Schmole no he could Liam right okay uh anyway

the stars he infiltrate the gay scene and to be honest you can see how easy it is the amount of information we just got out of Charlie barely ask for it they're gossip so basically Zezetzing meant that they would break people down to such the degree that when they were questioned by the Stasi, or rather they would have no option but to just go along with it. Yeah, and they show this quite well in lives of others.

Which we'll be talking about on the Patreon this week. It's just endurance interviewing until they get the answer they need. Yeah. So there's something about how they'd keep them awake. Yeah. Or they'd wake them up at one in the morning and then keep them awake till five, and then they'd have an hour's sleep, and then they'd turn all the lights on and go, you have to be up now.

to have these nighttime interrogations. They'd also just call you a paedophile. Yeah. Which I think is quite root one. That's my kind of state security. That's my kind of state security. Yeah. None of this spine, just like, yeah, he's an ounce.

You're a pedophile. You're a pedophile. Brilliant. Who are you here to meet? You, you. You met me, ma. Got you. Yeah, the Stasi ends up being the most comprehensive state security system

probably ever invented. Yeah. Because he's got the highest proportion of the population ever. to be involved. Yeah, something like the, in Nazi Germany, it was one out of every,

like 40 or 40. Yeah. East Germany is becoming a brutal police state with a struggling economy run by a man with a high-pridge voice. And as you said earlier, people are leaving a lot because the borders are just open.

Now, obviously Berlin had been separated into four zones. Which is what's weird up Berlin, is Berlin, West Germany. No, that's Bon. Okay. But yeah, because it's,

I don't know what it would be like living West Berlin because it's deep in the heart of East Germany. It's an island in the middle of a sea of East Germany. Presumly you're allowed to travel out of West Berlin.

There's a wall around a motor. There's a motorway that goes from West Germany to East Germany to East Berlin, West Berlin. And they just have a wall along that hole. Yeah.

So just like an auto band, basically. Yeah. It's weird. What's the vibe? Do you want to, is it popping off in West Berlin? But you're right in the heart

You're not connected to anything. Well, what's interesting is that some of the theatre zone was in East Berlin. A lot of people would go for a night out in the East. And also, they'd have so much money to spend in the East. Yeah. Because they're making bank in the West. Yes. So they could have a fucking amazing cheap night in the East.

But there's not much of choice. What are you going to do? No, there's the state. There's a state play. Yeah, there's what the state play. It's Deer England. It's the state beer. It's all house wine.

Yes, it is. So it's hard to splash out, really. So everything is house, basically. Yeah, it is. The tension. had erupted in the Berlin airlift of 1948 I think which is where

so that's when Stalin cuts off Berlin from the Marshall plan Stalin blockades Berlin in 48 to 49 by trying to force out Western powers by cutting off the land access but then the Allies supply the city

by air humiliating the Kremlin and ensuring that West Berlin will stay in allied hands right but it's a a city. So East Germany, people are just leaving East Berlin to go to West Berlin, and then presumably from there they can then leave to the West Germany. So between 49 and 61, around two point... It's the most poorest border of the Cold War, basically. So between 49 and 61, nearly three million people leave East Germany for the West, so about six. And the most practical route is through

Berlin. And these are young people, professional, educated. And so this westward brain drain and the mounting economic crisis means that all Britain's got to do something. So on the 1st of August 61, he bluntly lays out the crisis to Khrushchev, who's now in charge, and Khrushchev fears that if they collapse, then it would stabilize the rest of the Soviet bloc.

So they initiate what becomes known as Operation Rose. And overnight... Very German. On 13th of August 61, a wall is built around... the eastern sectors of Berlin. And we will deal with the history of the Berlin Wall and the rest of the GDR in our next episode.

Why have you said that? Sorry. That's always my line. When has that ever been your line? All right, do you want to plug? Do you want to plug? You do the end. Yeah, well, I've actually got a podcast. No, no, no, no.

Don't do a plug for your podcast. Andrew and Charlie Investigues. Plug for this podcast. Every Thursday. Plug for this podcast. It's a rival podcast. If you want to hear my side of the story. Why have you said that?

You're the producer of this podcast. He's producing a rival podcast. You're going to plug, which you shouldn't be plug another podcast. Don't say it's a rival podcast. Check out the rest of history as well. Those are great guys.

That's already on the Patreon part two, along with our bonus episode on the lives of others, a great film. Three pounds a month, all it costs. And it's an absolute hoard now. Watch the lives of others,

even if you don't watch the episode. It captures all of this. Interestingly, one in six of our members of our patron are informing for have a word. Oh, they? so anyway

that's on the patron but if not we will see you on Thursday for the story of the Berlin Wall and our continuing epic on the GDR. Goodbye. Goodbye.