Fin vs History - Yet Again The Germans take it too far | Witch Hunts in Early Modern Europe

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

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bye bye Welcome back to Finn versus History. I'm here, as ever with Horatio Gould. That was a themed opening by me. I haven't said the theme yet, though. All right, fair enough. This week we're talking about witches.

Witches are... I'm having done lots of research. I still not really clear what it is. Women, really. Mostly, there's a lot of male witches as well. Yeah? You know, you see a lot of them in Soho. Of course. Gay men, is that what we're saying?

No, not necessarily. But yes. No, I guess a witch is just sort of like someone who's got bad vibes before you realized the word bad vibes. Well, it's a woman that you made you feel uncomfortable. Yeah. For any reason, it seems. A large part of it seems to be sexual.

Yeah. This is actually probably, it's a good time to say this is, is one of the first episodes that's not about a war that we've done. Yes. So it's kind of ladies night. Which I struggled with actually to do some research. I can tell you're very uncomfortable with not talking about a fair conflict.

Yeah. Well, yeah, it's also if you look at the comments on like, I don't know, celebrities, female celebrities, Instagram photos. Yeah. It's, those kind of guys would be burning them at the stake as well as I want, send bobs. Those sort of guys, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But now they don't have. Actually, the send bobs

guys are still burning them at the stake, I think, but that's something else. that's that's that's indian that's indian marriage is it is it an indian divorce is that what it is that the euphemism pyre is that what it's called she's been she's been sent for an indian divorce oh right i've set fire to my wife right yeah i don't know if we need a sort of you know what you mean shorthand for burning women at the stake yeah the old indian divorce i don't i'm not i'm not saying that enough that i need like a little wink wink wink not you know what happened to joan of arc she got she had a bloody indian divorce she did um yeah it's just is uppity

Uppity... It's Uppity women, isn't it? It's up to see women. It's women who are... They are... They have a sexuality that men can't deal with. Sometimes.

Well, I think a lot of it is that... Because a lot of times it's just old women who's like, she's fucking weird. It's also kids. It's also young women. I mean, listen, the period we're talking about, really, to start with, is the kind of late medieval, early modern?

Is it sort of like... So if you say cancel culture now, a lot of the time, it's white straight men getting their come up this is sort of this is opposite land right

where everyone but white straight men is getting there getting cancelled or you can say that today is opposite land and really what we should be doing is burning women

rather than well this is the thing the way we talk about which trials are now is this is a terrible thing that happened to women and shows the irrationality of the kind of inherent

sexism of society right and patriarchy but we didn't get to meet these women do you know what I mean they were almost certainly very ugly Or too attractive. Well, no, my theory is that, you know the concept of ugly hot?

Yes. Where someone is so ugly that you can't stop looking at them. Yeah. And then you kind of find out. Well, like a four-year-old looking at someone with a disability. Yeah, it's like when a to see someone in a wheelchair for the first time. When a toddler sees like a dwarf for the first time. And it's just like, I remember that.

I have a visceral memory of being. three I must have been definitely older actually five or six in a hotel in Edinburgh for like my my nans

whatever birthday and I saw a dwarf for the first time and I just genuinely just like Mr. B's thumbnail yeah and they

I mean they yeah I just do the I just did the livid stare just on a bus terrified this guy's sitting in his wheelchair looks up there's a six year old just

it's weird how the stare is angry like it's like it's like what did you do in a past life it's like the six-year-old is glen hoddle every toddler is glen hoddle staring at a disabled person for those you don't know uh what what we'll surely everyone knows i don't think they do well maybe on this audience everyone needs to explain what glen hoddle right glen hoddle one of england's one of england's greatest ever footballers and he was set up to be one of a great manager to be honest we had quite an open expansive play under him for england it was probably the best in the played

pretty Southgate but obviously this is 90s this is late mid to late 90s right

well cup up 98 yeah Beckham gets sent off that's seen as the reason we get

knocked out rather than a footballing yeah yeah anyway the he was coach they don't want

to sack him no because he's brilliant he's also like he's one of the only you'd say

footballing minds in this country that is not Sam Aladais just fucking have it up on

yeah yeah there's a little bit of culture there's a European nuance to it maybe we should

past the ball sideways for a bit anyway Glenn Hoddle in a press conference this is after 98 not post-match conference was it

it was sort of is a pre-match conference it's he's taken on a faith healer who is called Charlie you can find out what the faith healer

where this continental style's coming from is he's a bit hippy-dippy right it feels like he's got a French girlfriend if you know what I mean Eileen Drury

Fine Eileen Drury is brought in to the England camp Now, this is a bit like... Eileen Drury. Come on, Eileen. Now, do you remember that this is the same time when Arson Venger's come in

and he's told the players... To eat vegge. Eat vegge and stop smoking fags. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all the other Premier... Revolutionised. The other Premier League teams are like, hang on, you're not allowed to smoke.

Well, that's not fair. Well, we can all stop smoking. We'd be fine at football. If we stopped smoking. Yeah. Anyway, so it's all about like, you know, the paradigms are shifting. She would be burned at the state

for being a witch, by the way. Faith healers are like number one time. Arguably, if there was any justice, after Holla got sacked, he would accuse her of witchcraft and she would have been hanged. She would have got an Indian divorce, maybe. She would have been in divorce when Indian man. Her bobs would be up in flames if there was any justice. So, Eileen Drury gets brought into the England camp and the tabloids are like, what's this hippie-dippy quack doing? Which? What's this witch? What's this witch? What's this witch doing? With her witchcraft. Yeah. And it's a bit like Southgate bringing in a sports psychologist. Yeah.

Except she is, she does call herself a faith healer. Yeah. So it's not. Well, they just stretched and played in the pool under Southgate. I think this is probably a little bit more. Yeah, I don't think she's sacrificing goats in the dressing room. But it's on the way there. She's only just arrived. That's true. Give her a second.

Lord knows what she would have done for Euro 2000. She'd stayed. But anyway, in a, the tabloids get hold of this. They keep asking Hoddle and the players' questions. And I think it's in a pre-match conference, actually. Yeah. Like in the run-up to a game. Yeah.

he's asked about her. Now, is it her who's got the opinions about? Well, no, because he's found God recently. So he's very gody. And then I think he was asked, right? It seems like he did it pretty unprovoked. I think that's the amazing thing is that he just goes, when you look at the same people, you know,

you've got to ask what they done in the previous life. And everyone's like, I asked you what formation you were playing tomorrow. But come on, let's talk about it. You know, you've got to wonder, what did you do to the same? deserve that. Yeah, well, the real fun comes with, is it a sliding scale of crime to disability? Yeah. As in, is Stephen Hawking in a previous

life, Anna of Hitler? That's what Haudelism. That's Haudelism. That's the school of Glenn Hoddleism, which is what this episode's about, apparently. It's about Hoddleism. Glenn Hoddleism. Yeah, so, Eileen Drury. I get, maybe that's a good point to end the timeline, actually, is Eileen Drury. Yeah. It would be the end of witchcraft in the English imagination.

Yeah, but I, yeah, I just, because I'm not a big supporter of cancel culture, but you really can't be saying that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm pretty lenient on a lot of things, but you can't be saying that. I just think in a press conference. Like, I think you can think of it. Sorry, you've got to go. To be bringing it up when someone's asked you whether... You've got to ask yourself, what have they done in a previous life? Like, does he treat... Does he see someone with disability? Yeah. And trick, like, shake his head at them? Sorry, yeah. John, John Smith from the son, I just ask you if Emel Heske's hamstring,

which can be okay for Sam Reno away. No, you've got to ask what, what does Stephen Hawking do in a previous life? Yeah, you make me sicky points at a disabled journalist in a wheelchair. So he had to go and that's, yeah. Tragedy. How did we get on to Glenn Hoddle? I think we're talking about staring at disabled people in an elevator. That was it.

I don't know how we got into that. Every toddler is Glenn Hoddle. Yeah. So, no, this is it. I remember seeing, I remember seeing a dwarf for the first time. And they're my high because I'm like five, but they've got, you know, your head. and like big strong arms and I'm just like absolutely terrified

my point that this was it my point is some women are so ugly some people some people are so ugly that you can't not stare at them but then part of you wants to say I'm not staring at you because I'm attracted to you

I want to burn you no no I can't stop looking at how ugly you are that's the reason I'm staring and my theory is that a lot of the men we're looking at a woman who was maybe as ugly as the woman that Charles just put on the screen but they'd be aroused

and they'd be like this is shameful you're ugly I'm aroused this is the devil you must be burnt so it's sort of like the word kink shaming hadn't sort of come into the lexicon yet the concept of kink the concept of kink is not

well they don't know what that is the only kink is the kink on their boots right yeah the big no stereotype associated with witches widely considered to have originated from anti-semitic imagery. Makes sense, yeah. Yeah, I mean we'll get onto the German witch hunts, but all I'll say now

is that a lot of seeds are sown. Yeah, historically, it is dangerous to have a big schnoz. Yeah, yeah, if you're just a guy with a big schnoz, you're... It's dangerous. Someone will find you. Yeah. Maybe we should do an episode on the history of having big noses. Because if you, if you join the dots, they're the real

persecuted people. Exactly, yeah. but anyway. Exactly. So now there's a big diversity push that's why all ITV dramas everyone's got a ridiculously big nose. Huge honkers. Even in biopics they still have to be played by people. Yeah, like Bradley.

Bradley Cooper. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that should have gone to Adrian Brody, someone who actually truly has a massive nose. Do you hear about Adrian Brody on the brutalist? His makeup assistant thought his nose

was fake. Really? So it's the opposite of Bradley Cooper. His nose is so big. She was like, well, let's, that's a bit too big. Well,

take that off. So, what she thinks? That's a fake. That's anti-Semitic. Oh, no, fuck. All right. She thinks he sat down in the chair with a fake nose for a laugh.

Okay, come on. Come on. Let's be serious now. We've got to get you in makeup. Hey, what? Um, anyway, so. But it's not just,

it's like, yeah, I guess it's like, what I heard as well is that it's a lot of like, think about people who are like widows or can't fend for themselves, right? So I guess homeless people, but like an old woman who has no family probably ends up having to do things like steel,

you know, at the bottom of society. But it's also... You'll become vulnerable. It's also that women are entirely responsible for childbirth. Oh, he said, are responsible for getting burnt at this day. I don't think I'd like to just nip those episodes in the bud by saying, right now,

I think every which had it coming. Yeah. No, women are entirely responsible for childbirth. birth. So anything that happened, anything that went wrong, which obviously did all the time. Of course it did. Was they went, well, she was the midwife. Well, right, she's a witch. Yeah, yeah. Which is, which is a kind of, I don't know when you want to, we'd want to start this. You'd hate to be caught as a male witch, though. It just feels, that would

just be another blow. Like, you're in there, there's like 15 girls and you're chucked in there. Yeah, you, yeah, it would feel pretty emasculating. It's like, for fuck, how's this? This is embarrassing. Yeah, drood or wizard, surely. Don't call me a witch. But you reckon, so was it gay, was it gay camp men that were? I don't know. I don't know. Because you know, you know the idea of that thing of... It certainly reclaimed witch culture has now gone into... Has been queered, right?

Yes, totally. Yeah. I mean, you've been queering it for years, but now it's been officially quid. What do you mean I've been querying it? I just think you've been calling queer people witches for all people. Oh, I see right now I have, yeah, yeah. Witch! I go down so...

She didn't know it was very progressive now. No, no, it turned out it was a compliment. witch. Witch! You should be burnt! Anyway, so let's start with the first major witch trials take place in Switzerland and France. I guess that's probably because they've got the most witches. Fine.

That makes sense. You've been to Switzerland? We're a country. It's weird how there's no real history in Switzerland. Yeah. It's like they do some witch trials. I reckon this is maybe the only time we'll ever mention some. some of this podcast.

Yeah. Well, they had, everyone uses Swiss mercenaries. Oh, really? Over this period. But then the big weakness of the Swiss is they all get very homesick. It's a weird, it's a weird thing. But have you been?

No. It's shit. Is it? Yeah. But the beautiful mountains, the alpine. Well, yeah, that bit's fine. Yeah, fine, right. No, as in, as in the, you know, like, if you're looking at a milker packet,

yeah, you're thinking that looks nice. Yeah. But then you go to Switzerland and you go to, like, the cities. You meet the purple cow. Yeah. You meet the people, the cow. I mean, I'd love to live in an alpine lodge. Sure.

Yeah. But that's not why. I went to Zurich. And what's it called? What's the one we're going to be? Basel. Basel. Anyway, they're both shit.

Well, yeah. It's like British people without a sense of humor, right? And that's kind of all we've got. So he was taking that away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just autistic. That's all it is. Just got autism.

Yeah, Switzerland just doesn't really seem to do anything in the, doesn't join in any of the wars even though it's bang in the middle of it yeah yeah like we couldn't be a more strategically important place for World War I and two and it's just like nah nah nah and then Roger Federer happens right so it's this

then Roger Federer it's this then it's Dignitas then it's Roger Federer that is basically it clocks they invent clocks yeah Swiss invent clocks well they certainly love making them can't get enough clocks and is Lindt is the Swiss is that a chocolatier is that guy from

Adverts? Yes. Is he Swiss? Yeah, Linz chocolate, isn't it? Right, yeah. Chocolate is Swiss or Belgium. Yeah. But Belgium's been naughty.

Now, we're talking about male witches. I think if you're a chocolatier, I think you'd be up there as in the running to be a male witch. Really? If we're looking to burn, you know, male witches, if I see the guy from the Lint adverts with a long hat on doing that and making it so sexy and getting so horny with it. Yeah, you're right. I'm thinking, your name's in the... In the hat, lad. In the hat, in the bucket.

So, France, Switzerland, they start witching in the sort of 1430s. Right. But really, where I'd like to begin is in 1487, where this book, Malius Malificarum, The Hammer of Witches, is published by a guy called Heinrich Kramer. From Seinfeld. Yeah. Kramer from Seinfeld published this book. And this is fucking insane.

He's an outlying, basically, psychosexual, sadist Catholic priest or Catholic priest and sort of an oxymoron yeah he's uh sorry no it's a tutology double negative um he's uh so

or I don't know anyway so Heinrich Kramer German fucker he writes this book this is a book that basically the foundation of all early modern witch hans

yes uh in the book he says that witches are real right they're all women and they're women because they have insatiable sexual appetit

yeah and so in order to fill they're all slut basically all women are sluts and the reason that they are witches is that in order to fulfill their sexual appetites they have to fuck demons right so all of this makes sense so far what's the crazy bit this guy

Kramer had been banished from Catholic church I think probably for like Jack in it or something surprisingly said the N word less than the other Kramer but yeah yeah so he was expelled from Innsbruck

by the local bishop due to charges of illegal behaviour against himself because of Kramer's obsession with the sexual habits of one of the accused Helena Schoiberin which led the other tribunal members

to suspend the trial. So he was trying someone for witchcraft and he was so obsessed with her sexual habits that he got kicked out and then wrote this book by how all women are sluts. I mean, we see this today right? This is pure the entire Hamburg

right? Yeah, exactly. It's the game. This is the guy messaging St. Bob's, oh, you're so very sexy, very sexy. Then he comes and he's like, you slut, you whore. Fuck you, fuck you, fucking slut, fuck you. He's actually a reply guy.

Yeah, it's this weird male thing of this sort of angry horniness. Yeah, I want to fuck you, I hate that, I want to fuck you, fuck you. You're a whore, you're a whore. It's just like a woman eating her lunch. It's like, you whore. You're trying to fuck me, you whore. This is my meaning. It's the ugly hot thing.

As you get so angry at how attracted you are to them, even though you hate them. so he writes this book which is in 1487 and he says that these women who are horrible dirty sluts that he wants to fuck but and all these women no one wants to fuck him

and he's writing a whole book about how women can't stop trying to fuck him yeah because they're all horny you're the horniest man in the world write a book about how all women are slats and so he says that he says that these women

can they can control the weather right he introduced So the whole idea of witch is having a broom and a cat, that's because they have a broom because they're women, because they sweep around the house. Right. And then they get on the broom and they fly

and have orgies in the sky with devils. Okay. Yeah. And the cat is like, it's like their little devil. They're familiar. Yeah, right. They're Petronus or whatever.

Yeah, because this is another thing. A familiar is now brought into the witch idea. So people with pets, the idea of the witch or demonic forces, often they have like an animal companion. So if you have a pet, that's often, that goes against you in the witch trial. Oh, because that, you must have a pet because that must have... That's just like a demonic thing to have a familiar.

Like that, what's the Philip Pullman book? Oh. His dark materials. Yeah. There's like a Lyra has a thing. Yes, yeah, you have to have like a puppet or whatever. Yeah. I saw that play.

How's it? Hated it. Yeah. He surprised me. So he said they control the weather and they make packs with the devil, which they do this through sucking him off. right yeah uh and also uh rimming the devil there's actual like wooden prints or whatever it's called carvings i bet the devil loves getting sucked off the that's like i think that's all he does really he loves it he loves it

hello i'm elizabeth day the creator and host of how to fail it's the podcast that celebrates the things in life that haven't gone right and what if anything we've learned from those mistakes to help us succeed better each week my guests share three failures sparking intimate thought provoking and funny conversations. You'll hear from a diverse range of voices, sharing what they've learned through their failures. Join me Wednesdays for a new episode each week. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Original podcast. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. So I think this Kramer guy's jealous of the devil for how much tail is getting. And that's why he's so angry at women. It's just so, just shudderingly horny. There's like wooden carvings of devils getting rimmed by women. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By witches. Right. From like the 1590s, I watched a

documentary and this historian it's really boring. What I also will say is that the historians who are into witches who study witchcraft I'd say I probably, it's one of the ugliest specialisms. Oh really? Yes. Wait, are these female historians? Both. All genders. Okay, fine.

Disgusting. Because that's quite a statement. I know. Because in general being interested in any historical period leads to quite a lot of ugliness. Yes, but I think as I've said before, I think World War II is the least ugly section. I think it's the most sort of symmetrical, symmetrical faces. you're into World War II.

Fine. It starts getting wonky the further back. Yeah, but then I think classical historians have a bit of class. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just think, I think witches, it's the middle. It's witches. It's witchcraft. Charlie, get up a photo of a guy called Ronald Huttton. He taught me history of Bristol. He's a ledge, right?

Absolute Ledge, Ronald Huttton. So shout out, Ronald Hutt. But, I mean, is his big thing, witchcraft? So that's Ronald Hutton. So he looks like he's a, he's a British, expert in early modern witchcraft well like he looks like the female witches how they look

exactly yeah yeah yeah he is that's why he's an expert is that he looks in a mirror and he thinks oh that's what a wish look like so yeah i mean absolute legend yeah eccentric taught taught me and my wife for some lectures right uh could be on the same course but um yeah i mean that's what all historians look like of this period yes men and men and women well we're going to find out the ugly we could do a ranking of who's the ugliest expertise in history because we're going to throughout this whole series

we're going to do all of them so at the moment in the top gear leaderboards yeah I think which is a top also I went to a at the British Library the exhibition about medieval women and there's one of these medieval books

trying to get women to be less vain implies that if a woman looks herself too long in the mirror the devil will appear and spread his cheeks and show his asshole and there's this amazing wood carving which I'll actually get a photo of that I took a photo of

There's an extraordinary image of just like a woman look in a mirror and there's this devil just like goat-seeing. So this is how the witches perform their magic. They suck off the devil. The witches then steal men's genitalia, which renders them impotent and also causes them an unnatural lust. Right.

Is that what happened to him? I'm starting to think that he has an issue with one woman in particular who maybe stole his dick and balls. And somehow he's still horny. Do you know the story of Gavin Plum, the guy who was trying to kidnap Holly Willoughby? No. So this is the kind of guy who's writing it.

So Gavin Plum, right? Yeah. Do you not hear about the plot to kidnap Holly Willoughby? Yeah, I did hear about that. Yeah. So this is the guy behind it, Gavin Plum. What I like about Gavin Plum is that he seems like one of the laziest stalkers in the world. To have your sexual fixation be Holly Willoughby.

The first face you see when you wake up. Daytime TV. And also, because he was trying to get a hit. man to do it he wasn't gonna and he's overweight right morbidly obese he's it feels like it's the laziest guy he's sat on the sofa he's like well she'll do i kidnap her and then he's just trying to get someone else to do it you know not he can not move him from his sofa and trying to kidnap so he's he's he's cuck kidnapping her yeah he's getting someone else yeah to get the supposed satisfaction but i feel this is very much the vibe of kramer right yeah yeah yeah he's a

Gavin Plum of the 15th century. Kind of this painful, horny hatred. But German as well. Remember the German. There's no one horrier than angry German. Yeah. So the book argues women have insatiable sexual appetites,

easy targets for sexy devils to fuck. But straightly none of want to fuck him. It's really weird, isn't it? Yes. They're incredibly horny and not towards him, and that's why they're evil. Insatiable. Seems very satiated whenever you're in the room, Kramer.

Weirdly, they have. They have amazing postmark clarity. So, in his opinion, witches are blamed for all male impotence. So it's never your fault, lads. Yeah, I understand that the urge to blame it. Well, she's a witch. She's possessed.

That's the reason I can't get up. I've been possessed, blood the devil. You'd be terrified going back with the guy and he can't get up and you're like, oh, I'm getting burned at the stake, can I? Indian divorce of it. For fuck sake. You're just like, please get an erection.

I'm going to die for this. So apparently there are instances in this where men have lost their genitals. So they've woken up and they're... Like losing their keys. And they're believed to have been hidden by a witch in a nest or a box, a nest of dicks. Right, right.

This is where the witches live. They're accused of preventing conception, causing miscarriages and killing newborns. And they are said to use enchanted potions and rituals to control human sexuality and reproduction. Right. So this is basically. the I suppose this is like the the eminent text

this is the year zero Bible of witchcraft and it's all just some horny in cells German ramblings yeah yeah yeah wants to fuck him and that women are simultaneously guilty of preventing conception and not fucking him and yen causing miscarriages

and he can't get it up yeah so he goes to his local magistrate and says I have not been sucked off my whole life. Something needs to change, basically. It's basically the in-cell is witch-hunters. So that's kind of the guide. And also the in-cells now wear like a fedora and a trilby, right? That's quite like an insular thing.

Yeah. And it's very similar to the witch-hunter hat. There seems to be like a long history of the sort of the incel and the brimmed hat. So that's the kind of year zero for European witches. Scotland, the first place in the UK to murder a woman for being a witch. Okay, nice. Edinburgh, yeah.

Quite proud. That's nice. Yeah, that's where my mum's from. I've got witch in the family. I've got witch and a family. Will she the woman who got murdered? Yes, yeah, yeah, very Presbyterian, her resilient. She took it on the chin.

So the North Berwick witch trials, which is, that's where my mum used to go on holidays, which is like a seaside seaside town from Edinburgh That's how bleat Scotland is Yeah Northbury

Where women are getting burnt at the state Yeah So James the first Sixth of Scotland This is the one This is annoying It's like the trans king

He's the sixth of Scotland But the first of England He's obsessed with witches He's obsessed with witches And it's sort of like He makes it all the rage Right In the way that Twilight

Everyone got obsessed With vampires Yeah Right Yeah It just became like there's lots of plays about witches. Macbeth was written to please James I first because he was like, he knew that his autistic hyperfixation was witches.

Well, apparently, and this is Dan Snow's words, James I first was gay. It was gay. He was a big batty boy. Well, he was a bisexual he said, but I guess that probably is. I heard Dan Snow said he was a batty boy. I'm paraphrasing, but that's what Dan Snow said was that James I first was gay and that that's why he was, he got involved himself in witch trials. Oh, he loved that. In this North Berwick instance, 1591, James has gone to Denmark. So today he had asked a one-man show at the Soho Theatre called like... The gay witch.

The gay witch. Yeah, the gay witches of East Dick or whatever. I don't know. So, but James I first, he is on his way. He's got married to a Danish woman, princess, I presume, queen. And he goes to see her. He goes to Denmark, yeah. And then on the way back, there's a story.

storm and he still gets home but he says the storm was really bad some bitch tried to kill me some horny bitch who won't fuck me tried to kill me with the sea yeah and um there are then a dozen women in north barrack are accused just the first 12 you see of literally it's that of conspiring against him so basically a bunch of women in north berwick were seen on a beach uh at night Oh, those are witches Kill it Kill them What are you doing?

What are you doing on a beach at night? Hang on Taking in the moonlight air That's ridiculous Sluts, all of you Sluts You're all You're all trying to fuck me

For 300 years That is basically European men You're trying to fuck me aren't you We're going to burn That's basically So I think the

A maid named Gilly Duncan Was accused of witchcraft And under torture implicated others leading to a widespread hunt. So this is the thing that seems to happen is that they accuse a woman, the first ugly woman they see,

of being a... But are they ugly? Are they not, is they not like... I'd say we're in the ugly time period. Right. I swear they were some more attractive witches that it's just like almost too, like, sensual, right? Oh, listen.

So it's not just... I think you can be a witch if you're too ugly, if you're too fit, if you're not fit enough. Too tall, too short. If you're making me horny, but you're ugly,

if you're not making me horny, but you're fit. So if you're attractive but it doesn't do something for me witch Yeah because I must be I should be interested Why aren't I getting a bono?

Am I gay? No you're a witch I couldn't be gay You're the devil That's what's happening Why are you gay So Anyway

These Basically the king then gets involved himself In the witch car trials Goes and actually Is in the torture room With one of the suspects And essentially a theme of this

is that women were tortured under some kind of oath, I guess, and would then just confess to whatever they said. Classics. They were like, well, yeah. I'd be, please stop torturing me. Yes. It took society quite a while to realize that people will just say anything if you torture them, so it's not actually a confession.

Yeah. But if they're holding molten hot steel bars, they'll say whatever. So, but James I first actually gets into it. He accuses this woman, Agnes Sampson, and Dr. John Fien, they're tortured into confessing to supernatural crimes such as summoning storms and holding satanic meetings at North Berwick Kirk

So what, you're just saying I didn't summon the storm I didn't summon the storm And then you just start hitting them with about Okay, okay Can you stop hitting me? I saw it at the stores See?

Yeah, told you I told you So then they're burned at the stake After being convicted This means that King James gets obsessed with it As Dan Snow says to hide the fact That he's gay

Right His words Yeah, he's very paranoid paranoid this guy. Down Snow. No. Oh, right. So he then writes a book

called demonology in 5097, which basically justifies the persecution of witches. So he gets really into it. Well, he's probably of all English kings. He's the most kind of like into like reading and writing and philosophy and stuff like that. Is he? King James Bible, isn't it? Yeah, so he's the most into all this shit.

But he used that energy to create like witch cross stuff. He also wrote a long treatise against the use of tobacco. weirdly. Really? It was one of the earliest people to say tobacco is bad for your health. Nanny State. Nanny State, yeah. So, King James, that's kind of, he starts the witch craze in England. You have something called the Pendle Witch Trials in 1612, which is Lancashire, 12 people accused.

I listen to a podcast about this, but I still, I'm just, when I'm mad. Yeah, I mean, a lot of them are very boring. Because the one that's interesting, though, is when we get to Germany. Yeah. Which, do you know what, let's just fucking. skip the English ones. There was a witch finder general who's called Matthew something.

Witch finder general? Oh, here we go. The witch finder general? I had a few lagers last night to me, which one of general? Matthew Hopkins. Yeah, Matthew Hopkins. So he basically killed

a thousand women in East Anglia under the pretense they were witches and the government was like, yeah, all right. Yeah. So basically, femicide was legal in England in the 17th century

if you claimed they were witches. This is around the Civil War time. It was during the Civil War Yeah, so everyone's kind of losing their mind No one really knows what's up and what's down No one knows what's going on Because this is an early modern period So it's sort of

It's the bit between the middle ages And the modern times, right Well, no, but this is people are meant to be This is around the Renaissance, isn't it? The Renaissance is the 17th century Yes, but people are meant to be Starting to though But do you know, I feel

Yeah, but I feel We've had a thousand years of You're in the Village Yeah There's the Cesspit We talked about this on the First Crusades episode Yes That was like that.

Nothing changed for a thousand years. And now suddenly everything's changing really fast, right? Constant changes. And that's why a lot of these paranoias and end times feelings are coming because suddenly things are actually moving. But no, no, no, they're not moving. It's just that there's Protestantism and Catholicism. Yeah.

It's not like now where AI is. There's a new AI. No, it's not like now. But compared to a thousand years of just, no. Yeah. Suddenly, you know, people are painting again. You know, all these ideas are coming in.

There's the printing press. It's too much. He's painting. Kill that woman. Killer. I'm horny. Yeah, exactly. It starts.

It's just very overstimulating period. Right. And it's just paranoid. It feels, there was a lot of feeling that the end times were coming, right? Yes.

This period, because it's just like, I don't know, mod, you know. Is it how people talk about TikTok now, right? It's the death of,

the death of everyone. Yeah, all that sort of stuff. So. But instead it's people reading books. Right. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Books are TikTok. Yeah. Yeah. It's Gutenberg and there. they're all addicted to their books yeah you see people on on carriages reading you go oh people used to talk back in the day

you used to talk to strangers and they're just reading the point of paintings from 100 years ago saying look not a book in sight yeah look at that they're all just being in the moment talking to each other and now they're all reading

these sexy German filth witch books basically 50 shades of grey is the hammer of witches yes essentially well yeah but Twilight all this stuff it is kind of like how it just became in vogue, right? Because didn't 50 Shades of Grey essentially...

Was fan fiction of Twilight by the Mormon writer? Do you not know that? No? Fifty Shades of Grey was... Started from, yeah, a Twilight sexual fan fiction that kind of grew out of control

and became very successful. But it basically brought kink into the mainstream in the way it hadn't been. Obviously, people who have kinks are all kind of depraved, filthy people that should be very ashamed of what they do. Yeah. But Twilight, no, 50 Shades of Grey, made it like cool. Yeah, kind of just like

moms can now talk about kink stuff. I like doing it upside down. You should be a shame, Sandra. You're a mother of three. Wash your mouth out. Go and wash your fanning the sink. You disgust me. You're a witch.

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you would have been a great witch had done born in the wrong ear man massive massive hat yeah

big hat big buckle who else today do you think would be would you call it if you had the power now to

accuse people of witchcraft what kind of well if it's a list of women that make me feel make me feel horny I don't like it

I've got notes um Lorraine Kelly right so she's she's getting tried for witch she's a big witch

right right so Lorraine Kelly does it yeah she's she's gone Lizzo she's gone Gotta be gone Gotta be gone That'd take a lot of firewood Witch You probably have to use coal Yeah

Um Me or Malkova Yeah She'd be a witch A lot of Yeah I think Claire balding would be gone Really

She's gone She's gone I don't think balling's a witch I think she's a witch hunter yeah she's sat next to you I think she's on my team

me and balding and big hats going into IDV studios Kelly you've been you'll be burned for crimes

against I don't even know what against my penis crimes against my horn so let's get to Germany because as ever yeah

this podcast always it's the most exciting bit of history yeah whatever's whatever's happening all these fuckers turn what are they doing what's going on with them

so So the largest witch hunts in Europe in this period happen in Germany. Yeah. Which isn't like them, scapegoating. Who would have thought? So there's the Wirtzburg and Bamberg witch trials, which happen in the 1620s.

The Germans take something too far. They are neighbouring towns. I believe they're on the river Mainz. Can you get a map up of Germany, Charlie, and find where Bamberg is? Because I'm imagining it's Bavaria, but I don't think it is. The Bamberg Cape.

right? Is that a... That's Battenburg. Battenberg. All right. I'm sure he's nearby. The Bamberg cake is very different. That's a thousand women.

You know how like a stripper bust out of the cake? Yeah. In Bamberg, that's not a fun. That's a dead stripper. Yeah. Yeah. Or woman gets drowned in the cake. Yeah.

Because I feel like Germany, just to dwell on Germany just for a second, it feels like that guy in the group who, whenever the group are all laughing about a joke, there's often that guy who just, it's just slightly off. Ha ha ha ha ha. Or just like they top it too much Like it's like a we're all doing a bit And then it's just, he goes And then a million of them die

And it's like, ah, it's just not You don't quite get it No, that's a bit too much I felt like you meant that Yeah We were all joking around It's funny because she's a whore Yeah, that's not, it's actually not why

That's funny, it was yeah No, it wasn't, it was ironic It's ironic It's yeah, she's a slats should burn in hell No, no Again, yeah You've kind of missing It's like we're saying like they like money

an ironic No, no, no, no! It should die! It should die! Burns them in ovens! It's a joke, yes? So, joke is that the industrially murder

6 million of them, right? That's the joke. That's the funniest way. That's the funny bit. I get it. Brilliant humour. So, so funny that you mentioned the Holocaust.

What happens in the 1620s? What's that's a new record? For not mentioned Holocaust. Yeah, that's, we've gone pretty far. I did say seeds were sewn earlier. These are now just the plants So the Bamberg witch trials Bamberg's a town

Little medieval town Right Like all these places in Germany Beautiful old town Yeah lovely little picturesque A de floater hood Chocolate chocolate Chocolate pot

Is it chocolate pot Is it chocolate pot? Is that what they say? Don't know Chocolate clock Teapot Cottage Tea You're right

There's a phrase Chocolate Teapot There's a phrase Right there's two phrases There's one that's useful as a chocolate teapot which is bad

and then there's there's like a chocolate that's any woman who won't fuck me she's a chocolate teapot she's as useful as a chocolate teapot yeah

and then there's a no not German chocolate pot should we go on Etsy should we buy a German chocolate pot that's not what I mean do you mean like idyllic yeah what's the

do you know what I mean it's like picturesque yeah yeah there's a phrase chocolate box chocolate box yeah and is that because there's a picture on it yeah

on a milk a bar but like of the old ones it would be like That's what I meant. Yeah. And it's kind of like the surface of German society is... This is what I mean. A busty woman in a Leidenhausen with two pails of milk.

Yeah. In the Alps. You know, it's kind of sound of music. Oh, hello! Yeah. And then you dig a little deep... And Zenfi burns him on. Exactly.

When they say life is like a box of chocolates, in Germany, you lift it up and it's just thousands of dead Jews. That's what a box of German chocolate is. That's the joke, right? It's funny. It's funny. It wasn't the joke. So these are the largest witch trials in Europe

that happen. Bamberg, my point is it's a beautiful little place it's now the centre of tourism for naughty German witches. I actually watched a YouTube short. Oh really? Is it like a big? Yeah. Last night I watched a YouTube short and it said the Würzburg witch trials

Germany's darkest moment? No! Not yet. That's still to come. Yeah, I also saw one that said recently anti-Semitism has a hit record highs in Germany I reckon not actually that record's not going to go for a while I'm going to count

that's like Phelps level yeah yeah yeah yeah no one's genetic freak anomaly outlier yeah Germany is Michael Phelps at the Sydney Olympics Germany standing there with six goals one for every

anyway go on let's come on come on we're better than that come on we're above it so Bamberg lovely chocolate bowl town they there's a bishop

what's his name it's a fucking insane name Prince Bishop here we go Adolf there go Prince Bishop Philip Adolf

on Ehrenberg Yeah before that name was problematic You know No You gotta remember There was a time where you could be

Call a kid Adolf Well I think there's a reason Why you call someone Adolf If you wait to the end of the story And then there's Prince Bishop Johann George second Fux von Dornheim

Doesn't not sound gay I'm sorry to say George the second fucks von Dornheim Yeah actually at the moment this is quite a straight name Now that's like a drag name isn't it George the second fucks von Dornheim What you don't realize is that George II and von Dorheim are two different blokes Oh right so this is just a story

George the second is fucking von Dornheim Come here So they're both the religious and political leaders In this little early modern German chocolate chocolate pot Chocolate whatever the fuck it is So They start Now I think this is because this is in the middle of the 30 years war

which is one of those bloody wars ever ever and it's just not really talked about because yeah for some reason it's basically the english civil war on steroids in germany but we weren't involved yeah it's luckily it's the catholics killing the germans have gone proxton obviously because of martin luther it's quite a really complicated string of it was kind of the birth of nations as well in the middle of europe yeah and then also so the we'll do an episode on it so i don't know so germany's proxton except for bavaria which is catholic yeah which is the outlier but the catholics essentially retreat into that enclave because that this is a This is all people trying to reimpose Catholicism on the Autistic Reformation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Straight-edge German. Trying to get them to lead the house. So anyway, this is a Catholic-driven witch hunt, which is quite rare. Because normally it's Prots. Yeah, so they're quite pot-wise. Because I think Catholics are just sort of, they're fine with the idea of women being witches. Which I think is actually.

She's stealing my things. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah. She come around, she fuck me. She take my things. She take my jewelry. She witch.

I think Catholics come out quite badly because of how much they let witches get away with it. Yes. You know, people see this is quite a down thing for Protestants, but I'm like,

well, they're... At least you were trying to do something about it. Somewhere to put a stop to all this witching. Yeah, it was like,

you know, we got them got witches. Yeah, because we killed them all. Right? We got rid of it. We cured of it. Bang and the dirt is gone.

So, let's get back to the juicy stuff. Prince Bishop, Johann George the second Fox von Dornheim. That's not a verb. That's his name. He decides,

that he really needs to start going for these fucking slimy witches Well, someone needs to do something about it Someone needs to do something about it It's an epidemic It's the first Catholic to actually try and clean up the streets Yeah, there's all this modern wokery say You know

He needs someone to have an iron fist The woke witch mind virus Tough on witches, tough on the causes of witches Is what I say So what he does, right Is he founds So this guy Bamberg He right, bear in mind

German guy Yeah In a witch hunt He builds something called the Druzen House also known as the, this is it, the Malfitz House, he builds... Doesn't sound evil at all.

The Malfitz House. Just going down Malfitz House. Do you want to think? He builds this, right? It's the largest which prison in the world at this time. Okay. And it contains which ovens

right. And it's a one-stop, court, prison, and death camp. Okay. So there's, you don't have to go anywhere else. It's all in one. All in one. It's like a superstore.

Yeah, it's all-inclusive resort. It's a retail park. It's a NASDA, but it's got McDonald's a bowling alley. Area is covered. Yeah, you don't have to leave the hotel. No, you don't have to leave the hotel. Well, you're not going to leave. No, you're going to be killed.

You'll never leave. But the reason that I like this so much is that there are always people that go, well, you know how Britain invented the concentration cabinet? Fuck did we? Fuck did we? Germans had death camps for witches in the 17th century. Yeah, it's interesting. that doesn't be brought up?

No. Hmm. Is that an exclusive? We just... Maybe. Yeah. Which ovens? I mean, ovens.

I like, you can't... Plus, that's something very Hansel and Gretel about that, you know, weirdly. It's something very witchy about... This is what Nazism... I mean, Hansen Gretel's a German thing as well. It's all in there, man. Yeah. It was always going to happen.

Right. It was inevitable. I can't work out who side you're on. Neither can I. When you say it's inevitable, you mean... If you're going to be a witch, you're going to get burned in another. No, I'm talking about Nazism.

Yeah. Because you know how when everyone's like, oh, Trump's a fascist, when they call Trump's a Nazi, he may be a fascist. He may prove to be a fascist. But Nazism is specifically German fascism. Don't see that away from them. Fascism, that's all they've got at this point.

Fascism takes the form of the country, specific nationalities, right? That's why Italian fascism was sort of so hopeless. Hopeless. Take a nap. You know, you can't. We will nap for longer. Stop going to work. Squeeze more women's assholes.

Please, please, somebody. Eat more pasta. Feel more tired. There's like stories of like the Italian like ships and the med being sort of like party boats. They'd be like meant to be patrolling. They're cruises. The Italian Navy is a cruise. No, no, nah, nah, nah, nah.

It's like a bunga bunga party. Listening to the shittest music in my, so when I, my mate got married in Italy. actually is what I got this suit with his suits made he I was his best man and me and the ushers were in charge of the music for the and obviously there's

most people there are Italian there's a small cohort much like the invasion of Operation Avalanche we land at Salerno we're immediately outnumbered we're desperately trying to cling on to a foothold of the mountains

there's about 20 Brits trying to put some good music onto the dance floor but the Italians are just relentless in their demands for the shittest music ever play Bob Sinclair right and they're just asking for awful trashy house and they then became

we'd spend like three hours making this playlist with like LCD sound system hot chip you know fun like millennial wedding bangers and then we then after 10 minutes it became a game of who can play the shittest song to get the talons on the father dance floor and genuinely like I'm blue

dabbediba they're all there The grandmas are there. Like Italian grannies. Nonners are like lifting their shirt up to Derrude by Sandstorm. That's a tune. It's crazy. Don't besmirch derrude. My point is,

is that in the Bamberg witch trials, they build a little chocolate box concentration camp. Oh, so sweet. Oh, he's so funny. Which is, yeah. I mean, it is very handsome and grateful being the cottage. Oh, it's a nice old lady. Now you're going to get burned.

Exactly. So a thousand. people are executed and they're tortured and we should go into some of the torture methods How many of these are women? Is it all women? No, there's kids

kids as young as eight are tortured There's some men But the men are mainly accused If they defend their wives Right So if they're like that woman is a witch And you're like, no she's not They're like well you're a witch as well

So basically if you're a man You're the only safe players Go, yeah, I know she probably is Yeah, yeah she is I don't know why I married her so we should probably go into the torture methods but we could do that next time Dorothy Good who was four years old when she was accused of witchcraft so I think I think we maybe we pause here

and we in the next episode we'll get onto the torture methods and then we'll deal with Salem which is the big one right right right right yeah so that episode is already on the Patreon you can sign up to become a truther but either way thanks very much for watching and we'll see you next time see you next week You're going to be able to be.