Financial Feminist - 106. Is Sex Work Feminist? with Grey Renee

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

There is so much discrimination in sex work –– from “pretty privilege” to body shaming to racism and misogyny, sex workers are often facing roadblocks both in their work and in trying to manage their finances. To better understand the finances of sex work, we sat down with Grey Renee, a professional stripper and educator, to talk about her time working in clubs across the US. We get into why it’s so hard to find a good accountant (like, the real accountants), how she’s navigated pricing her services, what a good and bad night looks like financially, and dive into a question that’s been long debated –– is sex work feminist? Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/start-here-financial-feminist-podcast  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For me, you know, if I'm at a club and I'm taking my top off and dancing for men, $500 to $1,000 is like, I'm going to leave happy. Because in the system of things, like as long as I didn't have a particularly abusive experience, which does happen, like I'm happy with that. $1,000 in one shift for maybe four to six hours, that's great money. Hi, Financial Feminists. Welcome back to the show. So excited to see you back. You know the drill, That's great money. on the Sonos in your entire office kind of episode, unless your office is the kind of place where that would be totally allowed, in which case, great, but also maybe not one to listen to around your children. I think this whole show is maybe not as much as we try. Like, I curse all the time, so maybe just in general, but especially this episode,

or could lead to a very interesting conversation, if you want it, about the world's oldest industry. So I will leave it up to you to decide. Okay, we are sitting down with a former coaching client of mine, Gray Renee, who is a stripper, entrepreneur, and coach who sat down with us to talk about the ins and outs of the strip club and sex work industry, including how and when dancers get paid, the surprising client stories, and how laws and regulations vary across state lines. The sex work industry is incredibly vast, and it's important to understand the differences between legal and responsible sex work and exploitation, which we dive into in this episode. This is a great episode if you've ever wondered how the industry works, if someone

can become financially independent when working in an industry built around not only inconsistent income, but also in many ways, the patriarchy, and the challenges many sex workers face financially, from club owners and managers who take more than their fair share, to discrimination both at work and in finding resources like accountants, literal actual accountants, who are willing to work for them. I also ask a question that might be on your mind in this episode, which is, is sex work feminist? It's a debate that's really interesting because part of me is like, hell yes, this is the most feminist thing you can do. And the other part of me is like,

this feels really dicey. So if you are the person who has wondered and thought about this, this is a really, really great conversation that is very eye-opening and really important for, I think, all of our journeys as feminists. We talked about managing tipped worker finances in a previous episode with Barbara Sloan, but here are a few quick facts. 5.5 million workers are in the tipped industry, and an estimated 23.9 million are in the gig economy out of 155 million workers are in the tipped industry and an estimated 23.9 million are in the gig economy out of 155 million workers. So roughly one in five. There are in total 57 million freelancers, which is crazy. That's on its own way to be like kind of tipped or an inconsistent kind of income industry. We also in this, talk about some of the surprising costs that fall back onto individuals in the sex work industry and one shocking revelation about who the actual

worst clients really are. Once again, not safe for work content ahead, but let's go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from the companies that allow us to bring you all of this good free content our hats like our hats better if that makes sense like do? Do you get better tips if you wear a hat? I imagine with Santa hats, it's like, oh, this might be somebody's kink. I don't know. I don't know. And how serious the men take themselves and how serious the club takes themselves is going to depend on whether or not outfits and costumes are kind of like an experience that people want to have. Or if you just look like the weird girl in high school, like showing up in an outfit. You think it's geography? Is that really it? Oh, yeah. So what regions are like down with a Santa hat and which are like, no way, Jose? Oh, yeah. So what regions are like down with a Santa hat and which are like, no way, Jose? Well, here right now, because at the specific place I work at, we have kind of like a theme

before the Christmas time and we'll have like a Christmas party. So everyone dresses up. And in South Dakota, where I've worked pheasant hunting season before there, you have girls that have, you know, really unique set of skills. They, I had one year I had an entire cowgirl outfit. So it was like hot pink. And I had my friend custom do a little cow neon Cowboys cowgirl hat. And she did like fringe and like a little broken heart on it. And then I had this whole getup that was like hot pink, sparkly cowgirl. And I had these heels that had like a little revolver as the stiletto. And they loved it. I mean, these guys are, you know, in the middle of South Dakota, a lot of them are farmers. Some of them are flying in from like Minnesota, Wisconsin,

different areas to go shoot birds for some reason. I don't know. It's like very popular and they love, like they love a theme. Like what states are you like theme does not work. Trident bombed does not work. Yeah. I would say Texas is sometimes that way. Like it depends on the club. Like you have them, what I like to call like hot girl clubs, which means that sometimes you are discriminated against for your weight, for your race, for your particular look. Like if you have dark hair versus blonde hair, you might get hired later with the blonde hair. I've experienced that where I naturally have this little dark hair right here and I make more money as a blonde. Like I get more attention. I get, you know, sometimes I don't even

have to audition for the clubs. Whereas other times I did. It's, it's very unique. There's, there's very strict beauty standards that are, you know, bleed over into the patriarchy and keeping women in their place. And so it just depends. But I think traditionally, the higher end clubs that you're going to pay a $20 to $50 fee to walk into, I do an act where I travel and pole dance on roller skates. And in Texas, they hate it. They're like, no, do not do the roller skates and you know in Texas they hate it they're like no do not do the roller skates yeah it's like it's like too Portland for them is that on your like

resume that you're handing out auditions and it's under like special skills it's like in addition to regular pole dancing yeah might I give you pole dancing I called myself a roller girl for a while, which then, then when I rewatched the movie, cause it was like trademark thing. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when you, I had danced back in 2011. And when I danced at that time, you know, I think that I was getting away from a family dynamic where, you know, I had very authoritative parents that controlled me a lot with money. And so when I started dancing at night and then taking 21 credit hours during the day, I was like, oh, actually this thing cocaine sounds maybe like kind of nice because I can do all the things I want to do and over-function really hard. And so I villainized stripping as catering to very brief

drug addiction and issues with my mental health. However, when I came back to it a few years ago, like four years ago, five years ago now, I was in Portland and I had just come out of an abusive relationship and had been financially abused by this guy. He had racked up thousands of dollars on a credit card that he convinced me to open up. And I was just kind of in this spot and was like, okay, well, let's see how it is now. And going back into the industry

and relearning like boundaries and how to kind of like just function in the strip club where it's safe for me to be there, which is totally possible. And it's a code that me and my best friend and business partner have unlocked. It is difficult and it's not foolproof. Like there are, just like in any situation, there's disordered people out there and there's predators out there and they're going to try and get at you no matter what industry you work in. And I would say that, you know, a lot of people consider the strip club to leave you in a

really vulnerable place. And it does on one hand, on another hand, when you're supported by the people that work there, like the bouncers, the management, you can find a working relationship where if somebody is being disrespectful and crossing a boundary and you are in your power, you can get them kicked out. Like I dare, you know, a guy at certain clubs that I've worked at to make a move because he would get, ooh. Try anything. Yeah. You unknowingly just like answered most of my questions, which was great. No, but let's dive into that. And I

appreciate your vulnerability right off the top. You and I connected because you came to me and we worked in a coaching scenario, which I loved. And it sounds like, you know, I know a bit about your story as well. Like there are a lot of, unfortunately, negative beliefs around money, financial abuse. What for you was the impetus of coming and starting coaching and doing that coaching session? And then, oh my gosh, I have so many other questions about what you just said too, because you just blew my mind in so many aspects. So number one was finding a woman that was successful. Finding a female who... Shouldn't be as novel as it is, like it really shouldn't,

it really shouldn't. You know, I think I, you know, I feel like I learned this maybe in your teaching or somewhere else I've been doing over the past year, a lot of research, but like women having more of the like student loan debt in the country and having kind of like, you know, the pink tax and all of the things that hinder us to becoming financially independent. And I, what I've recognized in following your profile for over a year before I ever paid for coaching was recognizing some of the belief systems in myself, some of the ideas and the fear. I remember one of your posts where, you know, you're like asking for a raise and then you grab your water and you're like, and it's like, oh God, okay. I relate to that. A lot of

where some of that stuff and that like positivity led me in my personal growth. However, some of it can be such a wall. Like there's like, oh, just do it, just do it, just get it done, just man through it. And it's like, from the woman's perspective, and I feel like from the human perspective, when we get more connected to men's vulnerability and open the door for that, it's like, well, let's talk about the feelings that this stuff is evoking because it's the deep-rooted feeling that our society gives us of not being enough. And then financially, that being a huge factor in that feeling of not enoughness. So it's like you can be rinsing your mental health, seeing a therapist, doing all these things.

But if you're in debt and your company is not successful, let's say you're an entrepreneur and you're trying to start your own business, there's this big fear around doing that because you're like, oh, I suddenly, now that I have a business need to just have it all figured out and need to have like my finances ready. And it's like, well, typically the first year, two years of business, you don't make a huge profit and it's a learning experience. And I felt like with what the information that you offered was digging into that vulnerability, pulling it up and dissecting it, dissecting what was true about it and what was actually just like either patriarchal bullshit or, you know, stories that from your family systems that you were telling yourself, generational trauma, et cetera. It's like getting down to the brass tacks of like

why you're telling yourself even in like your manifestation practice why you can't ever have enough money that's our entire book and podcast just summed up so you said something and this is something i have i have been thinking about and reckoning because we've had multiple conversations with sex workers on the show and part of the feminist in me is like, hell fucking yeah. Do whatever you want to do with your body. Make the bag. Convince straight white men to give you a bunch of shit. And then the other part of the feminist in me is like, this feels exploitative. If this is not a choice, this is icky. And I live about five minutes away from a very famous street in Seattle where you can drive and you can see sex workers just standing on the street just waiting to get picked up. And it literally makes my body hurt watching women do this. And then I also go, but is this a choice for them? I don't know if it is.

And so what do you say to that? What is your response to that? Because I go back and forth. Yeah. I mean, it's a really interesting internal struggle as a very privileged white female. My appearance, I have pretty privilege. I have white privilege. I grew up with two different kind of alternating experiences. My mother biologically was a drug addict. So when I would go visit her for a couple months in the summer, we didn't have food. We didn't have underwear to change. I had lice for over a month when I was there. But then on the other end of that. I had lice for like over a month when I was there. Wow. But then on the other, yeah. And on the other end of that, I had my father who remarried my stepmother,

who was a VP of finance and he went back to school and was a stay at home dad. And so we had, you know, we didn't have everything we wanted. We weren't like spoiled rotten, but for the most part we did. We had all of our basic needs met. Plus, you know, little Game Boy advances at Christmas and different opportunities. Yeah. So I feel like making that clear of where I'm coming from in my perspective is important because I'm going to have a different perspective than somebody that is doing sex work as a means of survival. Like I have definitely dabbled in it.

I'm very open with a lot of my community and a lot of the people close to me. I've had sugar daddies before I've had strictly sex work relationships. And I also consider stripping and like erotic play with your body to be sex work. So I don't deem sex work and like a negative connotation. However, there's sex trafficking, there's sex slavery that all needs to be considered. Sometimes in the clubs, you see issues with pimps and girls being kind of controlled by them due to circumstances of drugs, financial irresponsibility, or children in their life. And so there's a lot of different perspectives on this. For me personally, and my journey, sex work has given me an immense

feeling of control and power over my own experience. My stance on it personally is that it has brought a lot of power into my life and a lot of recognition of what a boundary is for me, where my boundaries are, how to express my boundaries, how to utilize nonviolent communication. It's opened up an entire world of an internal therapist within myself that I'm able to actually share with others. So for me and my clients, I am more of a sex therapist life coach than anything. I help them. You know, when I first started, it was kind of like not very transparent. The only advice I was getting was from other sugar babies and sex workers online that was like, you know, con them and, you know, take them for all

their worth. And, you know, the wanting to balance the patriarchy, like feminist in me was like, yeah, they deserve it. But then the like water sign cancer in me was like, this doesn't feel good. And so I shifted my business model to being transparent, to like full disclosure. I am a service provider. I'm providing you with a service. And if you want this service,

it's going to cost this much and for this amount of time. And it's like any other service provider. However, when you get into the realm of people needing emotional connection and needing this service, it comes from a deep place of the society failing in terms of mental health support. So sex workers, therapists are often there to pick up the slack. So specifically with sex workers, you create an open non-judgmental environment that's even more so than what you would experience going into like a therapy session. We are considered like bottom of the barrel of like people. So immediately when somebody is like, well, I'm actually providing you with a service and this is how much they're like, Oh, thank God I can finally be myself.

It's such a difficult question to answer because there are people out there that are doing it for however they do it, however they get their hustle. And you know, if we're talking about people taking advantage of other people, it's like, well, you know, Jeff Bezos takes advantage of other people on the larger scale than a sex worker on a white guy, who's got millions of dollars, who's looking to have sex with a young girl and kind of, you know, it's not emotionally matured because they've paid everyone around them to exist in the way that they want them to exist because they're so rich that they can control that. Well, the one thing that they can't control is a whore or a prostitute in their eyes is how they would perceive that. I don't utilize that language. I think service provider is more accurate,

but they'll kind of put you in this box and you end up being like the one person that they get a lot of their disordered behavior out on. And so it's like navigating whether or not the relationship is healthy, whether or not it's safe for you to be in, whether or not it's beneficial for you and whether or not you're actually helping them. Like I've had clients where I've worked with them for like a year and it's just like beating my head against the wall. And I'm like, okay, you're, you're out. And then they're like, well, I spent thousands of dollars on you and I just, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever story they're telling themselves. And I'm like, well, you're not doing the work. Like you're not healing with me. You're continually like every time I would go to this one client, he would argue

with me. He would buy like dances from me. even though I consider that sex work, it's like not exclusively what maybe people in society would consider sex work. And he was like young too. And he would argue with me every time I got there. He would argue about my price. He would argue about how long I was going to be there. And then after the end of it, I'd be like, well, I've now been here for two hours, so I'm leaving. And then he would, and then he would send me the money when I left. And I'm like, I don't, I, you can't pay me enough to just sit here and argue with me. Maybe that's what he got off on. Yeah. No, I think there was a, I think a TikTok or something I saw probably a year or two ago that is women are basically non-men. It's sex work selling their

bodies, but we don't consider the military. The military is the way you're selling your body for violence and then typically men doing that. But then sex work is the thing that is considered on the outskirts of society or a bad thing to do. And it's like, is the military any different? We're just selling somebody's body for a different reason. It's for, for war, not necessarily for sex. Right. Yeah. And I, I, to go deeper on that, it's any job, any job you are clocking in and literally selling your body to the position you are, whether. Whether you're clocking in for yourself or you're clocking in for a serving position, if you're a busboy, a barback, or data entry, it doesn't

matter what you're doing. You are selling your time. Your physical body is doing something in order to elicit money. So how do you want to do that? And in regards to the military, I mean, I could go really deep on this because the military, what they're encouraging people to sign up for is psychological abuse, which is necessary to be able to murder another person. That is not innately in our human nature. There's been scientific studies and facts proving this. innately in our human nature. There's been scientific studies and facts proving this. It's not within our conscious behavior. So if we're excluding like sociopaths, et cetera, who are devoid of a conscious, and we look at like the broader spectrum of humans, like the military goes in to create a brotherhood around this abuse to create this environment of soldiers that will respond in a

way that they want them to. So, I mean, I have more problems with the military than I do with sex workers because sex workers, a lot of the time are healers and are in the realm of healing these men who have been scarred and discarded from the military who have no one left. And when you start talking to them and you go into a VIP with this guy, he's spending thousands of dollars on you to hang out and you end up just talking about their life and about their experience. And sometimes I'll go really deep with them. And still the programming within this structure is so strong that these men will turn around and be like, yeah, but it's not the military, though. Those are my brothers.

And I like I live for that. Well, and there's a difference between, I think, you know, people in the military, right, versus the system that exists. Right. And it's like, we are not anti-veteran on this podcast. Yeah, absolutely. But it's like we are not anti-veteran on this podcast yeah absolutely but it's it's more it's more this idea and I think you know the trauma bonding that happens with you know other soldiers with other members is so strong where it's like any sort of criticism is not aimed at people it's aimed at systems or ego that gets us into wars in the first place.

But I do want to focus us to talk because I have a bunch of questions about your experience at clubs. What for you looks like a bad shift? Because in some of our research, we learned that sometimes you can lose money on a bad shift, especially if you're getting started. So what are typical house expenses you pay before you even go on stage? And what would you consider at least financially to be a not so great shift? So I'll talk about what is a good shift for me personally. And this range can be different for everybody. For me, if I'm at a club and I'm taking my top off and dancing for men, $500 to $1,000 is like, I'm going to leave happy. Because in the system of things,

as long as I didn't have a particularly abusive experience, which does happen, I'm happy with that. $1,000 in one shift for maybe four to six hours, that's great money. This might be my naivete. I have actually, I've never been to a strip club. Are they allowed to touch you? So like technically there's a lot of like overlooking in certain States. It depends on the club. So in like Tennessee, if there's alcohol sold, you cannot touch and there can't be nudity. But if there is nudity and you don't touch, there can be alcohol sold. So it's like the little Tennessee wiggle around. And then also if they are selling alcohol,

but they don't want nudity at the club, they'll do what they call like go-go dancers. So you'll give lap dances, but you'll be in like a bikini. In addition to that, it's to the dancer's discretion. I've worked at clubs where girls have allowed touching for $20 dances. And I'm like, I would never because I've been in the industry so long that, you know, as far as inflation goes, I'm like, I'm not going to give you a $20 dance in the first place. I've been doing this since, you know, on and off since 2013. If dances were $20 in 2013, what should a dance be now? We could do that math really fast.

Way more than $20. Should be a lot more. The whole idea of it is it is a sales position. You're not just selling your body. You're selling an experience, a fantasy. And what are you comfortable with within the fantasy? What are you comfortable offering? And then how much does that cost? And what does that look like? And some of discovering that in your career as a dancer or as a sex worker is doing it for a price and then going away and being like, Ooh, that felt really icky. That either needs to be more money or it doesn't need to be on the table at all. And so that's where you discover your own

boundaries. I had a night the other night, like December is literally, especially December in a recession, is the worst month at the strip club. Because everyone's very family focused. There's not a lot of the people that are what I would consider the good clientele in the club at that time, because they're focused on buying Christmas presents. They're focused on holiday meetups. What is good clientele? Who is the good clientele? Honestly, good clientele are respectful men who ask consent before they touch you or before they do anything. I mean, you know, there's some guys who will come up and they think it's cool because they're throwing a wad of hundred dollar ones at you, but then they chuck it at you and it hits you in the face and you're like, why? And so, you know, it's like, it's very like, I am, I feel like sometimes too, as well as a life coach for the better clientele,

for the worst clientele, I'm a kindergarten teacher. I go and start a lap dance and I'm like, okay, crisscross applesauce. Now look at me, look at my eyes. Okay. So boundaries. Okay. No pinching, twisting or tweaking my nipples. I don't like that. That's very uncomfortable. Boundary number two, do not touch any private areas of mine at all or your dance will be over. And then by the end of the little lecture, they're like, wow, so many rules. Oh God. I don't know if I can follow them. I'm like, you will, or your dance is going to be over. So on the antithesis of that is the great clientele. There can be two realities here where they're like, oh, I can't even believe a guy

would do that. And they're absolutely the guy that would do that. Or they're like, wow, I can't believe you need to say that. And they're like, absolutely respectful, sitting on their hands, you know, not crossing a boundary at all. And that's not to say sitting on your hands is preferred. I think that consensual, boundaried, like sensual touching is the goal. Like, I want to enjoy it as much as you do. And we both can if you are doing it right. But a lot of these people, a lot of these men too, are so devoid of sometimes physical contact, but really like emotional contact and emotional resonance. Right. Intimacy. Yeah. They're literally what I call like grabbing. They're like pulling your energy, but it manifests in the lap dance in a physical pulling and jerking of your body. And you have to be like, hey, babe, when you do that, you're hurting me. Do you want to hurt me or do you want to turn me on? It's terrible too, because I've boiled it down to

men respond to very basic commands and training them is like a matter of saying they're hot or they're not. Because at first I started trying to like, be like, Hey, so in consent culture and blah, blah, blah, you know, and boundaries, like, right. You're trying to reason with an unreasonable or like, yeah. Somebody who doesn't even have the vocabulary to use the lofty educational language when they're just like, yeah. And so you just have to be like,

babe, babe, you're being really not hot right now. Can we be hotter okay thank you which does that make you feel weird because i know like i mean see for me like as like someone who's like i want to be educated and i don't want to just dumb this down for you because it makes oh jesus you gotta cater it to each clientele you know i mean sure. I feel like emotional intelligence is centered around vocabulary and really education in any aspect is centered around your vocabulary in that subject. And how, how much do you understand when someone else is talking to you and what guys respond to is, do I want to touch their private parts and have a sexual interaction with them? And are they attractive? And these are the two things that in this environment they go into with anxiety about. And I think similarly, women have this experience. We, especially in this industry, are thrown into an environment

where our bodies are objectified. I wouldn't say that in that environment, we necessarily lose the idea of our autonomy, but with some clients, maybe, perhaps. Do you find that it's a different experience when women come into the club? Honestly, women are worse. Really? Women are worse. I would say in my personal experience, I want to say 90% of women will grab without asking smack without consenting. I mean, I've seen women. Oh, this is terrible that I'm going to give this away, but I've seen women getting like fingered at the bar under their skirts at a club. And I'm like, Hey, I just go up. I'm so awkward. I go, I'm like, Hey, it looks like you guys are ready for VIP. up. I'm so awkward. I'm like, Hey, it looks like you guys are ready for VIP.

There's a lot of reasons that this can happen is, you know, innately when you're seeing a bunch of really beautiful women walk around you half naked that have incredible dance skills, a lot of makeup on hair extensions, et cetera. It can be intimidating for a woman. And, but also for on the other end of that, a woman who is maybe more reserved in her normal life can feel like she can let her freak flag fly and take off her shirt in the middle of the club. And you're like, Whoa, literally I'm working here. And you're, you're messing up my workflow. Cause that's supposed to happen in the back, not on the floor. So let's talk about the back room. So what is the difference? The difference is, again, I'm coming from all of this, never been to a strip club, very naive when it comes to all this. So front of the house is like on a pole stripping, back of the house is more intimate, one-on-one touching. Is that correct?

Yeah. I would say it depends on the club. There are certain clubs where, you know, like there's a club in South Dakota where you can do a vibrator show, but the guy can't touch you. So you can basically get paid to masturbate and nobody gets to touch you. It's awesome. For me, it was interesting because as I grew in this industry, when I first started dancing, I was a virgin. And I was like, oh my God, I would never, never have sex for money or do a sexual act for money. And that in itself is a lot of whore phobia and a lot of shame. And it dates back to like brothels and the experience around putting women into a spot where you can shame them. And what's the most shameful thing you can

say to a woman is that she's a whore. It ruined their reputation back in the day. It's less, it's less so now we've got like artists like Cardi B, like Nicki Minaj coming forth and making it a part of the culture. But whorephobia is still rampant and a major issue. Like men are applauded by society for their quote unquote conquests, right? But like a woman's still in 2022, 2023, I think like a woman is prided on her virginity, which is a completely social construct, right? Virginity is a social construct. And so it's made up. I wish I had sold mine. Oh my God. Yeah. Even you

just saying that. And I can only, I can tell from just society and also how I was raised. I'm like, it's so uncomfortable. Like, it's just like, it's so, oh God. But yeah, it's like, it's for men. It's, you know, how, how many women can you have sex with? How many women can you conquer? And again, I put conquer in like the most massive air quotes. And then for women, it's like, how do you stay pure above all costs? And again, pure in major air quotes. So yeah, it's interesting. But yes, back room. Yeah. So the back room, it can vary in a lot of different places. Typically, if there's a champagne room, I will hold space for that. If sex work is occurring in the club, that is to the discretion of the woman involved and the man involved. And I don't hate on it.

involved and the man involved. And I don't hate on it. My only speech out there to women is charge more. If you are charging the same amount as I'm charging for whatever experience, a blowjob, who knows, you know, then mine's not going to sell as well in the club. So I always, I really want the pat that says it's like make pussy expensive again. A couple of my stripper friends have it and I'm just like, honestly love it. But yeah, I would say the backroom is to the discretion of the woman and obviously within the laws of the state most with the client. Like if I am feeling really safe with that person, I might let a little bit more vulnerability happen. You know, sometimes I'll go back there with customers and I'm like, no, absolutely. You can do absolutely nothing except look at how amazing I look and worship me and throw money on me.

Thank you. And then there's other times where the person and I have a great connection and they're very attuned to just life in general. And we have a great experience together where I would let them lick my nipples or maybe kiss a little bit. But it really is dependent on who you're talking to, what kind of experience they're looking to have, what experience you're looking to have with them and meeting in the middle of that kind of like sale. So the money you get is not money in your pocket. So let's talk about that. Like,

who do you have to pay before you leave the club? And then what do taxes look like? Oh gosh. So I'm, and this is so funny because this is why I ended up doing your coaching and joining and starting with Ameritrade and starting on investments. Cause I was investing with Robinhood, just trying to like Google things and be like, I don't know, like I'm making money again. So like, what do I do with it? And there is a tremendous amount of wage theft in the industry. And it's just something that we as workers have to accept. And as much as I want to fight it and want to be on the front lines of feminism and being like, this is fucked up. Let's fucking organize. The repercussions of organizing against clubs, it's a string of predominantly male-dominated,

specifically white male-dominated ownership. And a lot of these guys own multiple clubs. So they'll have different names, but they'll be essentially a chain from the same chief guy. And if you piss off that chief guy, you will be blacklisted from the industry. So I tread lightly on preaching to negatively on the tip outs and the house fees and etc. Because I've worked at clubs where it's definitely not an option. And the place I work at now is probably the most fair. I would say when I

worked in California, California will hire you on as an independent contractor, which is good because in that state, strippers did unionize and tried to create an environment of benefits for them, et cetera. But it backfired where essentially the club will hire you as an employee and you will pay the club the fees that you get at the end of the week for your paycheck. And that will be your house fee. So if you're working eight hours, it'll be whatever eight hours plus taxes of what they would pay you at the end of the week. And so you pay that up front to work the shift.

So it's like they're wanting to fix things, but then the patriarchy just comes around and gets their cut regardless. And this is dated back to brothels. Shout out to the podcast, The Oldest Profession. It's really educational in regards to sex work and the history of sex workers. They do incredible work on demystifying a lot of these concepts. But what they talk about is back in the day, brothels were predominantly percentage-based. So you would sleep with a man or whatever, and they would take a percentage. So just like in California, when I worked there, I didn't pay a house fee, but if I sold a dance, they would get 40% and I would get 60%. 40? Yeah. Okay. At your current club. Okay. So let's say you make a thousand dollars. I'm trying to do easy math. How much of that money is actually yours before taxes?

Yeah. So the current club, which is not the one in California, I would say all of that money is mine. And then I tip out managers or the DJ, I tip out the DJ. You want that to be based on like a percentage, but it's like an unknown percentage. So when you first start working there, they're like, you better take care of us. Because legally they can't be like, hey, you need to tip us out 10%. But you discover through talking to the other dancers, you're like, hey, how much money do they want from me? Because I don't know how much to tip to not get fired. And the club that I work at currently is probably one of the more fair, just clubs. However, sometimes, you know, you've got 40 girls that are able to work on the floor because you are an independent contractor, which is what I seek out. But then it's like, okay, well then the DJ gets $20 from all 40 girls. And then I've walked away

with maybe a hundred dollars. Wow. That doesn't always feel right. However, it does balance out like the, like tracking it now and tracking the evens. And then also like dancers not being financially educated. Like for me, the past two years, I've been like a sole proprietor. I'm dealing with heavy taxation, especially having come from the state of California. Even though I was flying to different states and working in different areas, I'm still having to pay those taxes. and working in different areas, I'm still having to pay those taxes. And now that I've formed an LLC, it's like I am the company and I can pay myself a livable wage. And then I'm taxed on the other parts of it. And it's like, nobody explains that to you. So I had to go to tax professionals and seek out... Because at first, I was like, well, H&R Block can help me.

No, if anybody's listening, leave H&R Block right now. Do not do H&R Block. They charge so much in fees. I did it for three years. They really do. And now I have an incredible CPA who sat me down and helped explain like, cause I had formed my LLC. And he was like, do you know why you formed an LLC? I was like, I don't know. Cause I Googled it.

And like, it seemed like a good idea. Cause I was supposed to maybe. Yeah. And he was like, let me explain it to you. And so it's like, it's really interesting because sometimes you can go away with thousands of dollars at the club, but then sometimes there can be a month where you are making a hundred or you're spending 45, a hundred dollars to be

present there and not make any money. So you were saying before about like, it's December is not a great time. We're recording this obviously in December. And that I imagine with like recession discussion, there might have been some lost wages. We found a stat that says that strippers are indicators of the economy. Have you found this to be true? I think so. Yeah. I think strippers and sex workers alike, it's a huge indication.

When you have a client that's willing to spend $5,000 on you fairly regularly. And then that client slowly is like, I don't know. It's also too... Some people's money is wrapped up in stocks. In their mind, they think, oh, I have all this money. And then the stocks go down and then they panic because they're not in a place where they're seeing that as a sale. And they're not really trading in a super healthy way. It's like a little bit more of a gambling way. And so they come in and they're like big ballers in the club and then the recession hits and they're like nowhere to be found except maybe at the bar, not tipping a single dollar, wasting

girls time. So, yeah. So I think that any like luxury item, which is what I consider sex work and stripping to be like, it is an human connection is a necessity, but specifically this bracket of human connection is not, you don't need it. It is a luxury item. Anytime a recession hits the blue States that are small bars and strip clubs are going to be the first to go. So California last year in the clubs was terrible. So I went to red state and it was slightly better for a year.

And now it's kind of like on the downtrend. Granted, this is just how the economy goes. So as a person who has emotional emotional regulation and what's about me, it's like, okay, well let's do some research. Like what's happening here. How do we work around this?

Like next, next year I will not work in December. Yeah. December is when I'm like going to be going to Europe or doing something that is not working at the club. Totally. I've discussed in multiple interviews about how it's difficult navigating the dating world as a financially independent woman. Is it difficult for you navigating the dating world as a financially independent woman, is it difficult for you navigating the dating world as a stripper? Like, do you talk about it on the first date? Are your dates

intimidated when they find out? Are they like, is that fun? Like I think of like Nick at one point, a new girl dates a stripper and he's like so intrigued by it. And for me, it was like one of his worst moments where I'm like, I'm kind of grossed out by like how he basically is like turned on just because of what she does. I don't know. Like, how is that for you? I think that, you know, dating is so, it's so funny.

It's the first question that men bring up when they sit down with you. They're like, well, you're so amazing and smart. You're not like anything like a stripper that I thought. Like, is it hard to date? Ew, tomato tomato tomato don't ever say that to the person ever regardless of like oh my gosh if they're a sex worker or a stripper or not just like never be like oh my god I didn't know you were this smart like wow you're so smart for being a woman in her underwear right now oh man okay wow right wow wow you're so smart for being a woman in her underwear right now. Oh, man. Okay. Wow.

Right. Wow. Wow, you're so well spoken. Thanks, bud. Oh, I forgot your question again. What was it? Oh, just how is it like dating? Yeah. So dating for me, this is why process currently is dispelling a lot of the fantasy around dating, the fantasy around some man coming to save me because I've already saved myself now. So that fantasy is like, doesn't work anymore. And then I'm like, well, like, what if it was

like, what if it was this cool thing where we were just like in love and it was amazing. was like, what if it was this cool thing where we were just like in love and it was amazing. And what I find is that there's a lot of people out there that get very quickly attached to you, start love bombing you and being like, wow, you're so amazing. So incredible. I just love everything about you. And then you get kind of like the hormonal experience where you're attracted to them and you have maybe like a sexual experience with them. And then you realize actually this person is fairly disordered and was kind of like initially really attracted to you very quickly for a disordered reason. And that's what I've been experiencing recently. So for me now, it's like, I'm charging for my time. You want to date someone that looks like me,

that talks like me, that is doing the work like me. And I feel like there is a part of me that's definitely open to the wounds that I'm personally healing within myself. Because what I've noticed is that I've gained a lot more male friendships now. And one of the things that I've recognized in a lot of the male friendships that I've found is like true authentic vulnerability and an incredible male perspective that is healing a lot of what some people that come into the strip club have kind of like wounded and validated as far as the patriarchy and how men act and reducing them to like your hot or not standards. It works in that environment, but having these close open male friendships where I can talk about being a sex worker,

where I can talk about being a stripper and they're so open and vulnerable with me that I'm like, wow, this is like, this is healing a big part of me. So I, when I say that I don't date for free right now, it is because, you know, there hasn't been this person that's, you know, connected with me on the same level. However, I do see lines in my life opening up for these men through friendships. And I feel like friendships are the initial like lead into a relationship that would be nurturing. And also, I don't want to do this forever. I think every woman takes the opportunity to suck off the patriarchy in this industry, but is also doing this to further her business and her passions and how she wants to show up

in the world. Yeah. And I love that you said that. There have been plenty of my personal experiences with men who have, yeah, love bombs slash been weirdly caught up in almost the fantasy of me. It's very different than obviously like a sex or fantasy, but like the, we were talking about this on a podcast I was on called Man Enough. And we released that episode of like the fantasy of the feminist woman, like weirdly, like men are like, oh, I want a Enough. And we released that episode of like the fantasy of the feminist woman. Like weirdly, like men are like, oh, I want a feminist. And then when they get into the weeds, they're like, nah, actually I don't. Like I don't want that. Or they haven't done the work on themselves to be able to handle it. They're like, this is a lot of work. Right, right, right. And, but there are people out there, there are men out there who are really lovely and beautiful

and have done the work on themselves. And like, yeah, I just want all the best things for you. What we call like the fantasy complex that a lot of women have, and we have started talking about it with each other because it makes it from being like really, really big in our mind and blown up to like this kind of funny, silly, playful thing. But I remember the first time I brought it up to her because she had been sharing with me like, yeah, I've been having, you know, some fantasies around men, blah, blah, blah, on our healing journey. And I was like, yeah, you know, actually, I had one the other day and I need to share with you. I was like, you know, I had been traveling so much. I was like popping to and from club, working music festivals, working at different clubs at events and doing like feature performances.

And so I was like lonely without realizing that I was lonely because I was so fulfilled socially. And I'm like going to grab my suitcase and this guy and I make eye contact. And immediately I'm like, Oh, I wonder what our kids would look like. Oh, I do this shit all the time. I do this shit all the time. I immediately I'm like, I'm like his last name. I mean, I'm not taking ever a man's last name, but I'm like my first name with his last name. Oh my goodness. Like literally five years in the future of like, Oh, we're on a vacation together. Like I have the same shit. Like, oh, we're on a vacation together. Like, I have the same shit.

Yeah, it's like this biological thing. And I think, too, sometimes it comes from, you know, the fantasies that we were fed with Disney and all sorts of bullshit. Oh, it's all the media who tells us, like, this is a meet cute and it's whatever. And I've talked about this publicly. I met my current partner at a bar and like, wild that that happened. Like utterly wild. Honestly. Wow.

I, but even in that, like I can feel myself getting, because I love this person very much. Like this is not by any means the only reason I'm in this relationship, but there is a part of me that is like, this story is really cute. And can I keep this story?

Yep. And I know that that is because of me that is like, this story is really cute. And can I keep this story? Yep. And I know that that is because we've been told like, it's not just your relationship. It's how you perform your relationship to other people or like how it happened, right? Like me cute of how it happened. Like I met a guy studying abroad. Oh God, what was that? Like seven years ago, thought I was getting married to this guy. Cause I'm'm like we met when we were studying abroad and then we like traversed Europe together and then we stayed

together for three years which was way too much time because it was like I wanted the story yeah of we're together we met abroad we fell in love yeah I can relate I stayed in my last abusive relationship for I think we were together for five years, but like collectively, like we were friends, like best friends before that, and then tried to make it work after we broke off our engagement. And the relationship was not working very early. He was showing signs of emotional dysregulation very early. And that's, you know, I don't want to like label him. I think that he had abuse in his family. I had abuse in my family. The work that I've done now, we came to a head. However, part of that was not being able to walk away from the story. We met while we were serving. I remember making this, you know, the astrology map that you get custom etched into wood of the day that we met the first night that he told me that he liked me and can't, and we're both cancers and cancer was

in the like middle of the sky. And I was like, it's destiny. And my love for the story and the theme and the like adventure, and then also the turmoil. So like the arc of the story and like the journey, it's like, I couldn't let go of it. Like at the playground when they have the thing spinning, I'm like hanging off the edge and I'm like, I'm never letting go. Right, right, right, right. No, I mean, I totally, I totally understand that. Yeah. So you mentioned these retreats. Can you give us the TLDR of what these are, as well as where people can find you?

Yes, absolutely. So right now we're getting, I'm hiring a marketing team. So our Instagram is not fully formed yet, but our Instagram for our strip away retreats are we are strip away, all like one word. And in addition to that, we're opening a podcast in February that talks about kind of like mental health awareness tools for... I feel like it's women specifically, but also men as well. But it's centered around our experience in the strip club and what we've learned from these experiences. The retreats are going to be focused on combining our experience working music festivals and the silliness that comes from clowning, the silliness that can come from stripping and connecting women with their

sacred sexuality while also teaching them a lot of tools that we've learned to help curb our fantasies that we have about men, help build our relationships into more productive experiences. One thing that I've noticed with my best friend and I is we've known each other since we were 10. We started stripping together way back in the day. And now we have a house together and live in Texas and have this incredible experience with each other where we can hold extreme space for each other's wounds. And we want to share that with other women and create a community centered around what we're calling our podcast, Spiritually Ratchet,

because we are both spiritual, but we like to shake that ass. I love it. Thank you so much for being here and for your vulnerability. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again to Gray being here and for your vulnerability. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again to Gray Renee for joining us for the show. You can connect with her and find out

what she's up to and follow her on all the socials and get more information about what she was discussing in the show. Link down below in the show notes. As always, Financial Feminists, we thank you for being here. We thank you for subscribing and rating and reviewing and for diving deeper into these episodes by looking at the show notes. We have transcripts in every single show notes page for every single episode. We have links for further reading and researching and understanding. Our team puts a lot of effort, not only of course, into these episodes, but also into the episodes show notes. So if that is of interest, if you want to learn and take your learning further, check out those show notes. We would love to see you over there. Thank you as always for being here. Thank you for supporting the show and supporting topics

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