Financial Feminist - 112. Six Figure Student Loans, Prenups, and First-Gen Finances with Melissa Jean-Baptiste

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

How did Melissa Jean-Baptiste go from a first-generation college student with six figures of debt to buying her first home in New York City on a teacher’s salary? Oh, and all before she turned 35. In today’s episode, Tori sits down with the Millenial in Debt herself to talk about her new book, So This is Why I’m Broke: Money Lessons on Financial Literacy, Passive Income, and Generational Wealth. We get into every one of those subtitles and more, discussing how Melissa learned about investing, saving, and building a financial future with passive income. She also shares what might be the best metaphor for why every single person needs a prenup (yes, no matter how in love you are!).  Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/start-here-financial-feminist-podcast  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You can't tell me that pleasure and joy and happiness are not tied into finance when finances and money give me the opportunity to gain these things that I want that make me happy. And so that especially on Twitter, they're like money doesn't buy happiness. I'm going to listen, grow up. Okay, that's that that quote, let it die. That is ridiculous. That's not the life we're living right now. And like we need the money to give us the joy and happiness we want. Hi, financial feminists. Welcome back to the show. Every time I try to like say it slightly differently, but I'm saying the same word, you're just going to get, you're going to get what you're going to get. You're going to get the intro. You're going to get, hello. If you're new here,

welcome to the show. My name is Tori. I host the show. Obviously I have a New York Times bestselling book that's also called Financial Feminist, wherever you get your books, including motherfucking Target stores. That's the coolest moment ever is walking into Target to get like some skincare and some bananas. And then look, look, that's my face on the shelf. Very cool. Very, very humbling. And I help you be better with money and talk about how money affects women differently. And that's what we do on the show. If you're an old buddy goody, welcome back. We're so excited to see you. Depending on when this episode comes out, it might be still summer. So bask in the glow of summer as we transition into my favorite season, which is autumn.

I love the crunchy leaves. I love the pumpkin flavored beverages. I love the Gilmore Girls on my television. I'm starting to light candles. It feels very spooky seance girl. And like, that's, that's my secret personality is it's just cabin in the woods. I read a lot of thrillers too. This is, I'm going to go on a quick tangent. My favorite like genre to read I've discovered in the past couple of years is thrillers. They're all the same. They're the same book, which is like girl

has husband, husband does something is husband guilty Question mark. I don't know. Also, she might or might not be crazy. She might or might not have some sort of drinking drug anxiety problem. We have to decide if she's a reliable narrator or not. And then the rest of the book is trying to figure out what happens. Like this is the same thing or cabin in the woods, 12 people, they start dying off, right? This is the murder mystery that's been going on forever. My other favorite trope, which is beautifully done by the Kristen Bell show. What is it? The woman across the street from the woman in the window looking at me. I don't know. It's the longest on purpose title. That's basically what I'm saying is that's, that's the, Kristen's giving me the most like,

nope, that was not it it i know the looking for me wasn't right it's like the woman in the house from across from the girl from the window no hold on i'm gonna get it the woman in the window across from the girl the woman in the house across the street from the girl in the window. I don't know. It's basically that show. If you did watch that show, that show was such a moment. That's the kind of book that I love. And that's also kind of the book that I love reading, like in a cabin with a fireplace. Anyway, so that's September. Welcome to the show. All right, let's talk about today's guest. I am so excited to welcome today's guest. She has been a longtime internet friend of mine, but this was actually our first like official

meetup and it was so fun to chat with her in general, but also she has just a lovely, refreshing take on personal finance that is very similar to mine. Melissa Jean-Baptiste, financial educator and author of So This Is Why I'm Broke, Money Lessons on Financial Literacy, Passive Income, and Generational Wealth, is a first-generation Haitian-American and former NYC high school teacher. As a Beyonce of personal finance, she paid off over $100,000 of student loan debt on a teacher salary while writing and producing the award-winning Millennial in Debt web series. She has since pivoted into personal finance and career coaching to help millennials and Gen Z build generational wealth and gain financial freedom in a shame-free digital environment. She can be found at millennialindebt.com and at Millennial In Debt

on all social platforms. Melissa joined us on the show to talk about how, as a first-generation American, she was able to pay off $102,000 of student loans and buy her first home, all on that teacher's salary. We also get into the systemic barriers that have prevented BIPOC from having equitable access to wealth building strategies and what it truly means to build generational wealth as a marginalized person. She also has one of the best analogies for why you need a prenup that I've ever heard. And yes, if you're getting married and you or your partner has assets or just you don't want the state to decide for you, we talk more about that, you need a prenup. So without further ado, let's go ahead and get into it.

And now a word from our sponsors. oh my gosh the book photo shoot that's so cool thank you i had to fight for that cover oh i had to fight for mine too isn't it funny it's definitely and it's just like all right well this is what i want so you're like and also i know my brand this is what i know will work exactly we'll plug your book many times during this episode but if you haven't seen the cover of her book she is in a shopping cart in a laundromat reading a newspaper right magazine newspaper yeah and it's just it's so it's so badass and the color gradient on it's just it's just a really cool book cover and we don't get a lot of cool book covers, especially for nonfiction books. So yeah, it's badass. Thank you.

I'm so excited to have you on the show. We have been internet friends for a long time, and this is actually the first time we've chatted, which is so cool. We ask every finance creator, money expert that comes on the show, what was your first money memory? My mom's going to be like, why do you keep telling this story? My first money memory, I was eight years old. We were doing back to school shopping. It was me and my little brother. We were in a store and my parents who are still married, very happy in love. She had started doing like joint accounts. So they had a joint credit card. And so she goes to buy this pair of shoes for school. She swipes and she gets declined.

And I remember she turns around furiously and she's like, never open a joint account with a man. And I'm like, I'm eight, by the way. And I'm just like, okay. But that's honestly the first thing I ever remember. Obviously, as I grew and evolved and learned more, I really understood what she was trying to tell me. And I took, I take that and it's really a great story. I take that as really just keep your financial independence, no matter what state, no matter what is your relationship status.

And even now today, she's like, I still don't don't do that. And I'm like, okay, all right, mom, thanks. So that's my favorite and first money memory. What great advice, though, right? It's just like when you're eight, might be a little lost on you. I think it's just don't be dependent on any person, especially not a man, right? Yeah. I know you talk about this.

We talk about this all the time. It's just like the money buys you freedom, right? It buys you the ability to not be in a situation you don't want to be in, right? And there's something so powerful about making financial choices for yourself as a woman. Absolutely. Even at eight right right i love that i love that your mom just like happily married but like do not ever do yeah

she's like don't even think about it you have done lots of incredible things traveled to 25 states you've jumped out of planes you've bought a house and a teacher salary you grabbed two degrees and you paid off 100K student loans before turning 35 for those two degrees. Can you take us on a tour of the start of your career and then how you built millennial in debt from your experience? Yes. I love that intro to that question. Thank you. So I am first generation Haitian American. I'm also the eldest daughter. So anyone in any of those two categories listening, they know automatically, you just carry this burden on your shoulders of you got to make your family proud. You have to make your parents proud. You have to do the absolute best and you

can't make any mistakes because your parents worked so hard. And so as the eldest daughter, I'm like, okay, well, I have to go to college. I have to get a degree in something. I have to get a job using that degree. And then I have to get my ass out of my parents' house. I have to get a degree in something. I have to get a job using that degree. And then I have to get my ass out of my parents' house. Or I have to move out of my parents' house. That's the goal. That's the trajectory I'm supposed to be on. And so when I graduated at 22, and I'm just like, okay, I've got the degrees.

I've got the teaching job. And now I'm going to just work and pay my bills so that I can get this house. And at 25, in 2013, I called the real estate agent. I'm like, okay, I'm ready. I want to get pre-approved. I want to do all these things. And I go through the pre-approval process and I get approved for $100,000, which honestly, they shouldn't approve me for anything. I didn't even have a savings account, but I got approved for $100,000. And in New York, that's not getting

you anything. You might get a Barbie house with $100,000. And so of course I start the crying and I'm just like, I pay all my bills. I have good credit. I don't understand why I'm not approved for more. And that's where that conversation pretty much changed my life. He was just like, your debt to income ratio is way too high.

And I'm like, sir, I don't, my what? What are you talking about? It's just like- I was just gonna pause you and ask if you could define it for the listener. Yes, absolutely. So essentially, when you're trying to borrow money, they look at you as a risk, right? So how much risk are they willing to take? And so your debt to income ratio is how much debt you already have versus how much you are making.

And what they're doing with that number is they're calculating how much more debt you can take on, right? So how much more risk they're willing to take. And so I was on a teacher salary. I was making about $50,000 a year and I had about 50. So I thought I had about $50,000 in student loans. And he's just like, nah, your risk is maxed out. We're not giving you, they're not going to give you any more money, which is why I didn't even know why I got approved for the $100,000. Honestly, honestly i was just like you should have gave me zero well they did it probably to make money off of you right because if you are a risk right they're thinking oh she's not going to pay her money back so we get to charge her a shit ton in interest and late payment fees that's part of many reasons why 2008 happened right people who

could not afford these huge houses got approved for these huge houses. And then because ultimately, a good chunk of financial companies are just greedy motherfuckers. Yeah, they just want to make as much money from you as possible. And so he's just like, if you want the bigger mortgage, if you want to be approved for more, go speak to your loan provider and see what you can do to accelerate your student loan debt payoff. And so I'm like, do to accelerate your student loan debt payoff? And so I'm like, okay, I go, I contact. And that is when I find out that I had more than $50,000 in student loans, although I only borrowed $50,000 in student loans. The provider told me, well, you're on an interest-only payment plan. And so at that point in 2013, after three years of payments, I actually owed $20,000 more. And obviously I was like, well, I have

failed, right? First generation eldest daughter, I failed. I didn't do what I thought I was doing. I didn't do what I was supposed to be doing. And so after many, many, many days of crying and feeling like an ultimate failure, I really decided like, okay, I can't live at home until I'm 65. I can't just stay in this moment and just feel sorry for myself because it's not going to solve anything. I'm not going to be able to, you know, I'm not going to get this house. I'm not going to.

And honestly, and I'm going to share that. I have been sure the reason I really, really, really wanted to get my own space, I wanted to have adult relations, not in my parents' house, right? Like I didn't want to do all those things. I'm like, you know, it's probably time to get a house,

to get my own space. That's valid. And I was just like, that's going to be one of my motivators. I want to get my own space so I can do my own adult activities in my own space. And so I really started learning about what passive income was. I started learning what a sinking fund was, an emergency savings account, and really started trying to build multiple streams of income because the $50,000 annual salary as a teacher wasn't going to cut it. I just wasn't going to be able to move the needle out and really started trying to build multiple streams of income because the $50,000 annual salary as a teacher wasn't going to cut it. I just wasn't going to be able to move the needle if I did not make more money. And I think that's such a crucial conversation in this space because

we can save, we can budget, we can do everything. But if my bills are $5,000 and I only make $2,000, what am I budgeting? Nothing. I'm in the red. And so I started selling my lesson plans and my unit plans because I was already teaching. I already had, you know, the know-how and I started making an extra $10,000 a year just by doing that. And I would throw that directly at the principal of my loans, but it wasn't enough for me. I wanted to live. Like I wanted to go to the brunch. I wanted to go to Thailand. Everybody, 2013, 2014 was big for Thailand and millennials. It was just Bali. Everything was Bali. Everybody's like, I'm like, how are y'all going? How are you affording these flights? And so I started asking conversations to my closer

friends at first. And they were like, girl, debt, we're credit. We can't really afford anything. We're just, you know, swipe and then think about it later. And I'm like, oh, so you're in the same shit show as I am. Cool. I started asking more family members and friends and learned that none of us actually really knew what we were doing. We were all just kind of scrambling and sitting in this embarrassment and depression on our own without having these conversations. And so I decided, you know what, I'm going to kind of make fun of it. I'm going to make fun of myself, make fun of all of the others, but also add some sort of educational piece to it. And so I wrote the Millennial in Debt web series and I made fun of how much I did not know

about buying a car. I did not know about student loans. I didn't know all these things. And it got really big on YouTube. And I was just like, oh, people want to talk about this. People care about this. And everything really just happened by chance.

I was like, I guess I'll make an Instagram. I don't know. We'll see what happens with that. And it just started picking up from there. And I'm I was like, I guess I'll make an Instagram. I don't know. We'll see what happens with that. And it just started picking up from there. And I'm like, oh, I guess I'll make a blog. And everything was like, I guess I'll do this. And it just really all came together into this brand, this educational platform where people didn't feel the shame. People didn't feel embarrassed because they had some place to go to learn and ask questions and share their stories as well. And so that is how Millennial in Debt was born.

I have so many follow up questions. Debt payoff journey. Let's talk about that. Because I want to start from where you realize that you wanted to pay it off sooner rather than later, or maybe even before then of like, I didn't realize I had what double the amount of loans, right? You had 50,000, but actually you had 100. One of the things that I talk about all the time with student loans is that I remember I was getting like a TikTok comment every other day about it for a while where people are like, I am paying off my loans. I've been doing it for years. And yet this was the first time I checked my balance since I graduated. And I haven't either made any progress or very little progress or actually I owe more than I did before. So can you first maybe talk about like the personal finance side of that, of how that's possible, how that happens, and then walk us through your kind of mindset and

you're like, okay, we're going to figure this out how to pay this off. Yes. I talk about this all the time because a lot of times when we talk about we should have loan forgiveness, people will say, well, pay what you borrowed. You got yourself in this mess. But we don't talk about the predatory nature of what student loan companies do, right? And so for my case, when I received that letter where it was like, you could pay $1,500 a month as your standard payment, or you can pay $200 a month. As a teacher making very little money,

I'm gonna go with the $200 a month. But what they didn't tell me or what I didn't understand was that $200 a month was only going towards the interest that I was accruing, which means the principal, the actual money you borrow is not being tackled at all. And I want to pause you. Credit card companies do this too. Correct. They say, okay, you put $1,000 in a credit card, but you can just pay $200. That's fine. But of course, if you have any sort of personal finance knowledge, you're going, wait, there's got to be a catch, right? But a lot of people either don't want to think about it, they ignore it. They're like,

oh, that feels weird, but I guess it's fine. Or there is this level of they're not as transparent as they could be. It is in the fine print. It has to be there legally somewhere, right? But they're not as outwardly transparent because, of course, this is how this company makes money. And so this happens with a lot of pieces of debt, right? Student loans, credit cards is they say, yeah, you owe this technically, but you can pay less in exchange for a bunch of interest. Right. And the thing that's so, so tricky about this is for my case, I had private loans and federal loans. And private loans have a lot less regulation than the federal loans. And what ended up happening, not only was I paying this interest, but the interest that I was paying wasn't covering the actual interest being added every month.

I was on a variable interest plan. I did not, at 17, 18 years old, I had no idea what standardized, unsubsidized, subsidized, variable. I didn't know what any of that meant. I just knew I wanted to go to school and get my degree and I needed this money to do so. And so when I signed these, I looked back as an adult that understood. When I looked back, I signed these loans at 7%, at 8% interest. And the time that I paid these loans off, my final payment was in 2018. My highest rate was 16% interest. That was higher than my credit card at the time. And I'm just like, how could you allow me at 17 years old to sign this and then double my interest,

not give me a notification, not really tell me, yes, it's in the little tiny, tiny fine print, but I'm paying you $200 a month for three, four, five years and you're adding in $500 interest, $600 interest every month. It's just like, I'm never going to dig myself out of

this. And I'm not going to understand why until I sit down and really learn and teach myself these financial skills. And I think that is, again, when we talk about personal finance, you and I both and many of our friends, right? It's not just, here's how to budget. Here's how a loan works. Because we actually know, I know this from research from my book, is that actually women go into debt because they don't know how to loan works. That's actually the number one reason. So there's all of this, yes, the education and also the personal choice. And there's also, there's a student debt crisis. There are things outside of our control. And this is why we need policy change and why we need just so much more structural support other than just

suck up and pay your loans from people who went to college in 1970 and college costs $12. It's not the same experience anymore. So I graduated in 2016 and I looked at what my college charges for a year. Now, I love my college. They would, I'm sure, ask me and demand that I say that like 99% of kids get some sort of aid. But a year of college now at my university is like $62,000. That is bonkers crazy. That's insane. Same experience. I'm just like, I love my school, but what is going on? Like what? John Mulaney has a bit about this. He's like 17 year old, I was in sweatpants and hungover. And I signed on the dotted line to be an English major at $120,000. Same. It's just crazy.

Specifically, too, I think with first-gen Americans, there are many additional money challenges. Can you talk through what are some of the common ones faced by folks of color, especially like first-gen Americans? Absolutely. And so I say this all the time. It's one of my favorite things. And it goes across all things.

You don't know what you don't know, right? And so my parents came in. They tried to give us the best opportunities for education. And when we are doing these things, it's kind of like, oh, well, this looks like the most appealing. We'll figure it out. Where other situations, it's like, let's go in with a plan. And this plan will have

options, right? That's the more, the financially wise opportunity. And I never had conversations about what affordability would look like for higher education. I never looked into how much would textbooks cost? How much would staying on campus be versus staying at home? And having these conversations about looking into scholarships and what grants look like, those weren't things that we talked about because we just didn't know we had those opportunities, right? So in school, I'm like, yeah, they like apply for a scholarship, but they never said, well, what do you do if you don't get that scholarship? Or what if you don't do, if you don't get any scholarships, do you have another plan? Or what happens if you're in school and you have unsubsidized loans? I wish I had

known, right? Or if I wish my parents had known that if I had taken this unsubsidized loan, that I could make payments while I was in school, right? Because once you sign an unsubsidized loan, the minute you sign, they start charging you interest. It doesn't matter if you're in school or not versus subsidized loans. They don't have interest while you're in school, right? These are things I didn't know. And these are conversations that first-gen Americans are not having because we simply don't know the questions to ask, right? We don't have the information where if it was a personal finance class in 12th grade in high school or even freshman seminar in college saying, hey, maybe look at the loans you're taking or the loans you could stand to take. These are things you want to know and how it'll impact you in a year, how it'll impact you in

four years where I'm just kind of going in blind because it's like, in a year, how it'll impact you in four years, where I'm just kind of going in blind because it's like, okay, well, I have to go to college. This is the school I got into. It looks cool. The stats are great. We're going to just go until the wheels fall off. And the wheels always, they always fall off, right? So these are some of the things. It's just, we don't have the questions because we don't have the idea on what to be asking. I think about, you know, I grew up in the United States. I have many generations who did. And it's complicated enough.

If you grew up here, you're still confused. It's hard to imagine if you did grow up here and already feeling confused. Imagine if you don't even understand the general concept of a credit score. There's so many things that no one teaches you. And then if you didn't grow up in the system, you're exactly right. You don't know what questions to ask. Yeah.

And they're like, just do this FAFSA. Like, okay. What does that stand for? What does that mean? Right. The other thing you said that I know is a common experience with a lot of first-gen Americans and a lot of especially women of color is this like, I need to succeed and I need to succeed at a very high level. And the entire expectation of my family and my legacy and our

success and how hard they've worked to get me here are all on my shoulders. how hard they've worked to get me here are all on my shoulders. Yes. And it's not even like a, I need to succeed at some point. It's an, I need to succeed now, right? There's a sense of urgency and just, I'll use my example. So I went to a private university and I went into a program that was a five-year program. I ended up accelerating and doing it in four years and paying more money to do it that way because I couldn't figure out how to tell my parents that I had to do an extra year in college, right? Because the idea or what we see on TV or what, you know, the American dream is you go to high school for four years, you go to college for four years and you come out and you start working. And so I didn't even understand or have the words to say, hey, this is a five-year program.

So it's not that I'm being like left back, which would be like the thought process. It's just I have to do this extra year of school. I was like, nope, I'm actually going to do this quicker. And then I'm going to take, you know, get these two degrees. I'm going to pay extra because I need to graduate in four years so that my parents could, you know, see me walk across the stage. So that state of urgency also removes the opportunity and the options to be more fiscally aware of what you could do, right? I could have potentially gotten more grants or scholarships because at 21, I had not a great understanding, but a better understanding of what I could do.

But I was just like, no, I need to pay this for this grad year and I need to go. So that sense of urgency really fuels a lot of first gens because you have to make that impact as quick as possible. Was investing even on your radar? Because I imagine if you feel the sense of urgency, we talk many times on the show about how investing is like consistent, stable over a long period of time, right? It's not like the get rich quick. It's not the stuff that happens overnight. You're shaking your head. People might not be able to see this. So it sounds like investing was not even like on your radar. But then I imagine thinking about money as this long term thing that does take time is directly juxtaposed with this feeling of I need to be successful immediately.

I need this right now. Yes. I know no one can see us. I was shaking my head as you were speaking. I'm like, absolutely. And so I had the very, very, very fortunate opportunity of meeting my work mom early on in my career. At 22 years old, she was a little older and she's just like, you need to open a 403B. And I'm like, girl, I don't know what you're saying. I'm going to be taking as much of my money home as possible. I'm already being taxed.

Like there's already this pension that I'm forced to be enrolled in. I don money home as possible. I'm already being taxed. Like there's already this pension that I'm forced to be enrolled in. I don't even care. I don't care about 65. And she's like, no, trust me. You need to open up a 403B. And these were not conversations I was having at home. And so my father does have a 401k,

but that was because he was like automatically enrolled as a city worker. So it wasn't something he was coming home and having conversations at the dinner table. Like, oh yeah, I invested an index fund in my 401k. He was just like, this is money they're taking out of my check. I don't know. And so when I opened the 403b, it kind of became that same type of feeling at home. It's not something I was going home and saying like, oh, I just invested in these things. So these weren't conversations at the dinner table, but I am so thankful that

it became a conversation in my workplace because that 403B starting at 22 has allowed me to reach Coast Fire before 35. I love talking about Coast Fire. And essentially, I was investing $121 a check. And I hated every minute of it. But I am so thankful that I did because starting off with that 121, I am so thankful that I did because starting off with that 121, I have a six-figure portfolio that even if I never invest, I'll have $1.8 million by the time I reach traditional retirement age. I'm definitely trying to retire in five minutes, but it is nice to have that sense where it's just I don't have to worry about what's going to happen when I want to retire because of the work that I was kind of pushed into gently by someone who knew and understand the importance of that long-term

gain, right? That time where it's just like, this money now that you don't get to spend is going to grow and really change the trajectory of your life in the future. And so I'm very happy she pushed me to do that. It doesn't mean I didn't make other investment mistakes, but that was absolutely a game changer for me then and even now today. Well, and when we're thinking about investing, that is how we build generational wealth, right? And I've had many conversations, especially with folks of color on the show

about generational wealth, because when I hear that, when other people hear that, I think of yachts and succession and like old money right like i just think of like i think of white families you know and that has been the reality for many many years is that generational wealth is not only a privilege but also something kind of scoffed at because it's just straight white men right passing it on to their sons so when we think about generational wealth what does that mean to you? And of course, it's the obvious barriers, racism, sexism, ableism, everything. But talk to me about some of the

other things that you have to think about in building generational wealth as a woman of color, as a Black woman. Yes, I love this question. So generational wealth to me is the luxury of leisure and time. And I always say time is our biggest currency and the wealthier you are, the stronger your lineage of generational wealth, the more access you have to your own time where you get to do things you want to do, where you get to have experiences you want to experience, where you get to learn and do all of these things that you simply cannot do if you have to work 60, 70, 80 hours a week, or you work two, three jobs just to make sure that you're able to eat, just to make sure that you're able to keep a roof over your head.

And so generational wealth means gaining that time for myself and being able to pass down the education as well. But that time where my children, their children, they are able to, yes, we're going to invest, but we're going to also have the opportunity to relax, to rest. Rest should not be something you have to earn. But unfortunately, in this country, it is something like if you rest when you have debt, you're lazy. But it's just like generational wealth gives you that access to rest.

And as a Black woman, rest is not something that is typically discussed as like, yeah, you go to school, you get a job, you work hard, you hustle hard, and you rest when you're 65, you rest when you're 70. And so for me, generational wealth has given me the access and opportunity to have my own time. That is really what wealth means to me in general. I didn't plan on asking you this, but I have seen a lot of people start talking on the internet about the word pleasure. And we associate it with like, you know, sexual pleasure, but it's so much more than it's just like, ease, right? I think I wrote the word ease in my book, like way too much. I'm just like, that is what money can buy you is ease, right? No inconvenience is actually an inconvenience, right? an inconvenience, right? You know, I'm in New York right now and getting off the subway and if it's pouring down rain, it's like, okay, no worries. I can do something else, right? I can figure that out. And I think we have been denied pleasure as women, definitely orgasms and sexual

pleasure, but like we have been denied pleasure, right? When you think about food, a lot of women's relationship with food is like, don't eat or don't eat that thing. It's too fatty, right? And be as skinny as possible, right? Deny yourself the pleasure of a good carbonara. When you think about the pleasure of just a relaxing day where you don't have to worry about work, right? Capitalism will tell you, nope, you're being lazy, right? You're not being productive. We've, I think, lost sight, not because it's our fault, but because we've been forced to lose sight of what feels pleasurable for us. to lose sight of what feels pleasurable for us. Money's the answer to that.

Yes. No, I love that because I talk about how not only just pleasure, but like health, right? People are like, well, money doesn't buy happiness. I'm like, well, money keeps me healthy. I feel really happy that I could call up my therapist and schedule a session. I feel really happy that I can go to a chiropractor. I feel really happy that I can pay a copay. And so you can't tell me that pleasure and joy and happiness are not tied into finance when finances and money give me the opportunity to gain these things that I want that make me happy. And so that, especially on Twitter, they're like, money doesn't buy happiness.

I'm like, listen, grow up. Okay. That quote, let it die. That is ridiculous. That's not the life we're living right now. And like, we need the money to give us the joy and happiness we want. I have a whole section in my book, I like run through the myths that we believe about money. And one of them is like money can't buy happiness. And I'm like, that is a narrative meant to keep you underpaid and overworked and not pursuing money. Because yes, if you buy a Ferrari, and you expect that to fix your problems, no, that's not going to work, right? But it can buy me stability and safety and ease. And that is happiness or at least stability for me. Yeah, totally. In your book, you state, quote, there is not a single wealthy person in existence that gained financial

freedom with one income stream. That is correct. Let's dive into this because, of course, I agree. I believe multiple streams of income, side hustles, diversifying, all of that can make a huge difference. But in the thread of lack of pleasure and capitalism, most people are already working a ton. So this idea of passive income, when you think of passive income, again, you think of a bro with a podcast talking about passive income and earning money. Take away the mic. I know. So can you go through some of your income examples that you lay out in the book? And can an average person have passive income? Can an average person create more than just one

source of income, typically like a nine to five job? Absolutely. A thousand percent. And I think what happens is we've created this idea of passive income and side hustle culture into you have to do 9 million things all the time just to get a little bit of extra money. And the truth is passive income doesn't always start off passive. That is something that is very, very true. But when I talk about when you set up these structures and you set up these things that you already know how to do, that you already enjoy, or that you've learned this skill, then you put in that little bit of work, it does become passive. And so I talk about this, for example, my nine to five at the time was teaching. I had to go in, I had to lesson plan, I had to do all these things, grade. And lesson

planning and unit planning was taking me about 40 to 50 hours a month on top of teaching. So it was not passive in the beginning. I'm like, this is ridiculous. I'm drowning. But I already had the skills and I saw the market available for lesson plans and unit plans for sale. So I edited, I adjusted, I learned how to use Canva and all those things. And I put it on sale on this platform where teachers were going to like, okay, I need this idea. I need this. And so I put this up. And even now I have not been in the classroom almost two years in September. So that's kind of crazy. But I'm still making about $300 to $400 a month from those lesson plans and unit plans that I put up almost 10 years ago, right? And so passive income does not have to be something that is

so out of reach, or I have to go get a certification, or I have to learn how to code. It's things that you already know how to do. You navigate, you do a little bit of elbow grease in the beginning, and you set it and forget it essentially. Because I don't even know the last time. I look at the account when the money comes in, but I don't know the last time I've updated those lesson plans or changed anything. It's you set this up in the beginning. Same thing for creating millennial in debt. I was already in the beauty blogger space. I'm like, oh, I know how to do a page. I can just throw up a WordPress website and see. I'm already writing a lot. I'm an English major. Let's see what happens. And so I'm using these skills that I already have. And I'm just navigating

in a way where I want to create another stream of income. I want this money to come in without having to go out and do a bunch of things. And I've done that. I have seen that hustle culture take its way in side hustles where I was just like, I'm gonna walk dogs, I'm gonna tutor, I'm gonna do all these things. And it's like, girl, you wake up at 5 a.m. to go teach, you get off at three, you wanna spend time with your family,

you wanna go to the gym, you wanna rest. When are you gonna dog walk? How is that gonna fit into your schedule, right? So you wanna lean into, for are you going to dog walk? How is that going to fit into your schedule, right? So you want to lean into for passive income and side hustles, things you know how to do, things you know that are going to have a return on investment and that people want to access or people are willing to pay for. And that's how you navigate that where you set it up and you get those multiple streams. And passive income is my favorite income because I get tired. I'm like, I don't want to do anything, right? But that you have to do something a little bit in the beginning to get that set up. Oh, and the first time you make money while you sleep,

like it's great. And I want to highlight too, high yield savings accounts are passive income. Yeah. Right. Like putting your money in a high yield savings account. And again, I talk about high yields, like taxing it on my forehead, but like high yield savings accounts, passive income, right? Investing, passive income. Now with investing, typically you're not getting that income immediately, right? But it's money that is yours eventually. It's very similar to your story. One of the first products we ever created at her first 100K, I literally posted about this on LinkedIn the other day. I took the resume I was using, literally just deleted some personal information, wrote a guide in the margins of why I

was writing this way or why I was formatting this. So it was like a resume template plus a guide. That's what we still sell on the website. It was years of putting together a resume, years of research, right? And then sold the thing I was already using. Same thing with a cover letter template. Like the cover letter template was based on the cover letter that I would send when I was applying for jobs. So there's a lot of ways that you can take what's already working for you or what you've already built. Somebody out there needs it. Yes. And I'm very for like, you put in the work, you should get paid for it. So it's just like, don't try to reinvent the wheel, use what you're using and see who's out there in the market for it.

You have a chapter in the book that's called First Comes Love, Then Comes Prenup. Yes. And as someone who on my third date with my now partner was like, hi, just let you know, like you're signing a prenup if this goes. I know that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, very clear. Talk to me about the stereotypical version of what we think prenup relationships look like. And I can also add my two cents in here. Why is prenup a dirty word and why shouldn't it be? I think I love that because I've also told my partner like we're signing that contract i think what really really like kind of throws people off is this image that we've been fed through like video radio tv movies all these things where it's like oh only really rich wealthy people get a

prenup because they don't really love each other they're just in it for the money and when they get at the board it's like old guy young young woman, you know, it's like the 65 year old Hugh Hefner marries the 24 year old model. Exactly. And it's like, oh, I'm protecting my money. And it's like, yes, prenups absolutely protect your money, but they protect so much more. Same thing with estate planning. You don't want to leave your money up to the decision of the state.

You worked for that money, right? New York doesn't get to decide what happens to my money if I break up with my partner. And so you are really taking control and making sure that you get to say so. You get to decide what happens. You know, no one goes into a marriage saying like, yeah, we're not going to work. So let's get this prenup. That's not what prenups are. I compare it essentially to a condom. And my mom was like, Melissa, but I'm like, yes, a prenup is a condom. It is protecting you and your partner from catastrophic disaster as you are doing adult things, right? And getting married is a very adult thing. And so once we start looking at it like that as a condom, I think it becomes more a part

of our normalized conversation of like, yes, we're, you know, approaching marriage. We're getting serious. Let's look into what we want to protect as we're entering into this union. Kristen, that's going on the Instagram. That's great. I've never thought of it. I always say if you are choosing to become legally partnered with somebody you are signing a prenup right you were mentioned like state of new york right like wherever you live is deciding what happens with your money unless you choose differently right and so all this like you know prenups are like kind of yeah it's a sturdy word it's a scandalous thing it's just like you actually you have a prenup already, whether you know it or not. You have a prenup. And whether you choose to create one yourself because you want something

different, you already have one. So you either like the States, and spoiler alert, it's probably not great. Your condom example is great. I have a less sexual answer, which is if I'm entering into business with somebody, I just got off speaking at this huge corporate company, right? There is a contract. Now, I have every intent that this is going to be a great experience, right? I have every intent, but I'm not going to not sign a contract, right? And at the end of the day, yes, marriages hopefully are full of love and support and mutual admiration and affection. They are also legally binding agreements, which is why you sign a marriage license, which is why you get tax breaks, right? So if you are entering into some sort

of financial partnership with somebody, whether that's a business relationship or yes, a romantic relationship, you need to make sure that you and the other person have what they need in order to feel great. Yes, agreed. It's just like, come on, like let's get on the same page here.

We're not, you know, we're not doing anything wrong. It's always like, oh, but you're jinxing your relationship. Like, or I'm protecting it, right? So we just need to change the narrative. Well, and we were talking before about like money gives you the freedom to not be in situations you don't want to be in. On the flip side of that, there's something actually so beautiful. I've talked about this with my partner because I definitely out earn him and we've had transparent

conversations about that. There's something actually so beautiful about the fact that one of us could leave this relationship at any time, but I'm choosing to stay, right? It's not about the money. It's not like I need you for the money or I need you for the stability. And so that's the reason I'm staying. It's like, actually, I'm here because I want to be here, right? I'm here because I love you and I want to be here. That is actually a great, incredible gift that you can give somebody and give your partner. That was so beautifully said. Thanks. Just so shameful. I fucking hate it. You mentioned estate planning. I want to

highlight this because we haven't talked about it a lot on the show because it is kind of unsexy. But talk to me about basic estate planning. We had Tiffany Bajanista on the show. And unfortunately, I don't know if you know that she lost her husband unexpectedly. And we were talking about just the gift of his estate plan, just being there and how much that alleviated the stress and the emotions she was already feeling. So if somebody is listening, let's say like they don't have a bunch of assets, right? Like a trust wouldn't make sense. What is the basic estate plan that they need in order to take care of themselves and the people they love? Yeah. So I always recommend two things and they don't require much time and they don't

require almost no money at all. And all of the accounts that you do have, the assets that you do have, you want to at least have a beneficiary, right? And so that could be things just like your checking account or your savings account or your 401k. You want to make sure that if something happens to you, that that money, again, the state loves to just come in and make decisions for you, right? You want to make sure that if something happens to you, that that money is not just going to sit there and just wait and people are going to decide, okay, you'll get this amount, you'll get this, or people are going to argue or fight. You want to say, no, if something happens to me, the money in my checking account is going to go to my child or the money in my checking account

is going to go to my partner. And it's super simple now. Financial institutions make it like you could just log into your digital account. You could just add the name. Some of them ask for the social and birthday, and then you're done, right? It doesn't take more than five minutes. Another thing, I know it sounds so morbid, but I made my dad're done right it doesn't take more than five minutes another thing i know it sounds so morbid but i made my dad do it and it doesn't take too much time doesn't take too much money you want to make sure you have a death folder and i we i have to come up with a sexier name for it but essentially it's a folder with all the passwords for things and the locations of things and like the most recent you can update it every year every six months however you my parents have a binder yeah they have a huge binder. You just want to have it. So

if something happens, I'm not scrambling and going to a bunch of different places or trying to figure out, okay, well, what was the password for their phone? What was the password for the computer? What was, how do I get access to their 401k balance and things like that? It's just all in one place. And so this is going to be some of the saddest moments of your life. You don't want to add the stressor of, oh my God, now I need to figure out how do they want to be buried or how do they want all of these things. It's all in one place. And then you know where to find it if anything happens. And so it's not a sexy name. It's not a sexy activity to do. But if you want to bring in like a pizza or a dinner, I did it all for a pizza. And I was like, okay, You want to bring in like a pizza or a dinner?

I did it all for a pizza. And I was like, okay, dad, let's just do a little depth holder. And he's like, what? I'm like, I'm working on the name, but let's just do it. And then it's in his drawer and that's where it is. And we update it annually whenever we need to.

And that's it. And those are the two great places to start. It's not going to be too stressful and it's not going to take much time or much money. And if you believe and want to be the stressful and it's not going to take much time or much money. And if you believe and want to be the least selfish person you can, that is the gift you're giving. I know it's uncomfortable to talk about money, right? It's also uncomfortable to talk about death. I worked my last corporate job. I worked for a company that like did online estate planning and the amount of conversations that we were having with people who are just like, I lost somebody and it was just, I'm already grieving. I'm already stressed about like

getting everything together. And I don't know what they want. I don't know what is going to whom. And especially if you have young children, if you have children, guys, you need a will because you need to be able to assign guardianship, right? So yes, beneficiaries for financial accounts, but guardianship too, because especially if you have fraught family dynamics, or if you don't want your children to go to a certain family member, like, again, talking about the prenup, right? Like, when you have a document, that is what you want, right? You are in control of that. And especially if you know, you are no longer with us, if you are dead, you can't make that call. Yes, yes, you don't make that call. Yes.

Yes. You don't get to decide anymore. So you want to decide beforehand because like, I love New York. I love here. But I don't trust them to decide what happens to anything in my life. Right. So I want to decide that. And it's just it's like the ultimate gift you can give your other loved ones who are

trying to navigate this for you. This was such a great conversation. Thank you for being here. I just love your work. And you know that and I'm so excited for your book. Tell me about the book. Tell me about where we can get it. Plug away. Thank you. Yes. So the book is called So This Is Why I'm Broke. You can find it everywhere books are sold or on SoThisIsWhyI'mBroke.com. It's really just breaking down all of the crazy money things that we didn't want to talk about, including all of the crazy money things that I have done, right? So if you want to laugh and you want to just feel like, okay, I'm not the only one making mistakes and learn

along the way that it's absolutely the book for you. And thank you so much for having me on Tori. I love it. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much to Melissa for joining us on the show. You can go to the show notes or you can follow her at millennial in debt,. Her book, So This Is Why I'm Broke, is also available wherever you get your books. Thank you as always for being here, Financial Feminists. We appreciate you subscribing, liking, sharing the show. Again, the easiest thing you can do to support the podcast that you love most is just hitting the subscribe button. If you're just a casual listener who ducks in and out of episodes but

doesn't hit subscribe, just hit subscribe. Super helpful. Helps support the show and helps increase our numbers so that we can continue doing great content for you. We appreciate you being here. We appreciate you being Financial Feminists. And we'll catch you soon. Have a good week.

Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Khalil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda LeFue, Masha Bakhmakieva, Kaylin Sprinkle, Samaya Mullakario, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Arielle Johnson, audio engineering by Austin Fields. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton. Photography by Sarah Wolf. And theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting this show.

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