Financial Feminist - 116. Inside the Cult of Multi-Level Marketing with Emily Lynn Paulson

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

If you’ve ever found yourself on the other side of a Facebook message asking if you “keep your business options open,” we hate to break it to you, but you were the target of an MLM pitch. In today’s episode, we’re talking about the inner workings of multi-level marketing and the shady tactics they use to draw and keep people in.  Our guest, Emily Lynn Paulson, author of “Highlight Real: Finding Honesty and Recovery Beyond the Filtered Life and Hey Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing,” joins us to talk about her time spent as a top MLM leader, and the reasons behind her decision to quit even after experiencing massive success. Vote for Financial Feminist for the Signal Awards! https://vote.signalaward.com/PublicVoting#/2023/shows/general/business Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/start-here-financial-feminist-podcast  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

if you care about your friend who is in an MLM, do not buy her products and do not join her team because all you are doing, say you buy a $20, whatever spatula, I don't care. She is getting a very, very small portion of that money. More of it's going to her upline, her upline, her upline and the parent company. So the people who are profiting off of this, not your friend. It's just driving your friend more into this insular world where she's going to spend more money and more money and more money. Hi, financial feminists. I'm so excited to see you. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for being here. If you are new and maybe because you saw the title of this episode and you're like, I need more. Om nom nom nom nom. Welcome.

My name is Tori. I'm so excited to see you. This is a show that teaches you how to be better with money, but also talks about the way money affects women differently. And if you're an oldie but a goodie, as always, welcome back. So way back in season one, one of our first ever episodes of the show, like episode two, we talked with Jane Marie, who hosts the Dream podcast, to discuss her extensive work researching the world of multi-level marketing companies, or MLMs for short. This is still our most popular episode of our entire show because these companies are sketchy and secretive.

And we've all gotten that like, hey, boss, babe, DM, or Instagram message or Facebook message from some acquaintance that we went to high school with that we haven't talked to in years. So right off the bat, if you have not listened to that episode is a great precursor for today's episode. And like I said, it is our most popular episode of the show. It's fantastic. It dives into these companies in more detail. But today we wanted to bring on a guest that has actually been in the world of MLMs, that actually made over a million dollars from MLMs, and has since realized how toxic they are and gotten out of them and really become one of the leaders of this movement against these predatory companies. It's one thing to learn about MLMs and

their insidious, secret-y, sketchy practices from the outside. Again, listen to episode two, but a whole other thing to talk to someone who was deep in the belly of the beast and truly one of my favorite conversations we've had in a long time. Emily Lynn Paulson is the author of Highlight Reel, Finding Honesty and Recovery Beyond the Filtered Life, and Hey Hun, Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multi-Level Marketing. She has given two powerful TED Talks, both challenging the status quo of parenting, alcohol use, and feminism as we know it. Paulson has also been featured in major publications such as the Today Show, New York Times, Washington Post, The Seattle Times, Chicago Tribune, Next Question with Katie Couric, and the Tamron Hall Show. Emily joined us to talk about her time in MLMs as one of the top sellers at the

company. And at one point, she was a millionaire, which I put in quotes, and you'll understand why we put that in quotes once you listen. And she had dozens of women reporting directly to her, We put that in quotes when she listened. And she had dozens of women reporting directly to her, aka she had recruited them and they were in the pyramid under her at the top. She shares her story of how a simple meetup with a friend pulled her into the world of exploitative practices, shady business dealings, and even being prompted to use her own cancer diagnosis to sell more products. Oh boy. We got a lot of heat for our first episode, I think because it was our most popular, from a lot of women saying we were anti-feminist for disparaging MLMs or that we weren't actually supporting women business owners.

If you're someone who has thought this or sits in the middle, maybe you've been part of an MLM, maybe you know somebody part of an MLM, maybe you're just a little nosy person like me and you want to hear more about MLMs. I encourage you to listen to this show and listen to this episode. It is so important. And I'm just going to debunk it right off the bat. We talk about this more in the episode. Being part of an MLM and growing up the ranks, you don't own a business. You're not a business owner. And me telling you and telling the general public that MLMs are a scam is not anti-feminist. Okay, let's get into it. But first, a word from the companies that allow us to bring you all of this good free content. Crypto is like the financial system, but different. It doesn't care where you come from,

what you look like, your credit score, or your outrageous food delivery habits. Crypto is finance for everyone, everywhere, all the time. Kraken, see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Kraken's registration details at kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer. I'm in Bend, Oregon. We moved here a couple of years ago. Yeah. I went to college in Portland and I live in Seattle.

Oh yeah. So we moved from Seattle. We were there for about 12 years. Yeah. I didn't know that. That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

What did you like about it? And why did you leave? Well, we, we, we moved there because we're originally from Montana. Okay. And we were in, we actually got married in Portland. We kind of been all over the Northwest. And then we were in Pennsylvania for four years. And my husband took a job in Seattle to come back to the Northwest.

Where in Pennsylvania? A little town called Doylestown. It's in Bucks County, like 45 minutes out of Philadelphia. Okay. My dad's from outside of Pittsburgh. And so I always wonder when people say Pennsylvania, it does feel like two separate States. You're it's either like Philly side or yes. Pittsburgh side. Yeah. So we loved Seattle. We basically raised the kids there, you know,

and it was mostly just like the weather kind of got to us and during COVID, like we felt very trapped and we always thought we'd retire in kind of a smaller town with, you know, four seasons and it just COVID kind of drove the change. Yeah. Bend is the nice like medium between enough culture, but also still feels tiny. Yeah. It's a really good, happy medium. And it has all the seasons, but winter isn't Montana winter. You dabble in the snow. It's not too bad. Totally. I love that. I'm just so excited to chat. I was mentioning to you before that still our most popular episode of this show is one with Jane Marie, who hosted a podcast called The Dream. Yep. Yep. Talking all about MLMs and just that whole world and how they prey on

women. And so I'm just really excited to chat with you today. First, before I dive into your experience and your questions, can you define what an MLM is? It stands for multi-level marketing. What does that mean? What are MLMs? So it's an unsalaried workforce that basically exploits women's unpaid labor. workforce that basically exploits women's unpaid labor. I mean, that's what it is to me. I could define it in many different terms. It's a scam. It's a ruse. It's faux women's empowerment that just really upholds systems that oppress women, upholds white supremacy, upholds patriarchy. It's a scam. I have nothing good to say about it. And I promoted it and cheerleaded about it for seven years of my life. So that's a big 180.

Can you give me some examples? Because I think it's helpful to contextualize. Like Mary Kay is always the one I think of, of just very, I think everybody has come into contact with Mary Kay at some point, or every woman has come into contact with Mary Kay. What are some other examples? Oh my gosh. It would probably be easier to name companies that aren't MLMs, but Beachbody, which is now Body, they've rebranded.

And a lot of them do this to try and differentiate themselves. Beauty Counter, Avon, Rodan and Fields, Modare, Monat, what else? Herbalife, Pruvit, Trinant, Kangen. I mean, I could talk for an hour with all these names. Yeah. I feel like you're like throwing darts at a board. You're just like combine this and that word. Totally. Totally. If you've seen it in your social media feed, chances are it's an MLM. If it's come up in the advertisements of your social media feed, chances are it's an MLM. If it's come up in the advertisements of your social media feed, chances are it's a legit product. I feel like that's a good way to differentiate it. So you mentioned seven years. I'll talk about that in a second. What was your experience with

MLMs before you joined one? Did you grow up around it? Were your friends involved? What was your touchpoint with MLMs before? Yeah, I had a vague understanding of what they were. I went to Mary Kay party in college. I remember getting a lot of like blue eyeshadow, but I didn't have any, I was very neutral about them. It was more of a thought of, oh, it's kind of that thing. Once, once social media, once it picked up on social media and I saw people I knew involved in MLMs, then I kind of got the, there was just like this internal cringe feeling and I didn't know what it was. It was like, there's something a little bit off about it. But you know, I went to jewelry parties, I went to legging parties.

I just didn't, you know, I bought stuff, but I didn't really know much about it. You know, I didn't seek out more information beyond that. When did it feel like this was something you would be interested in? Or what were the factors that led to your interest? What was that timeline? Yeah. So this was 2014 and I had five kids, still do, but my youngest was one. And it was kind of at this place where I was looking for something else. I knew we were done having kids. I just felt like this pull inside of me to do something with purpose, that I just felt like I had no other purpose besides being a mom. And that's what I wanted.

And yet I felt so unfulfilled. And I felt lonely. I felt all of these just swirling things at once. And a friend, you know, or an acquaintance from high school reached out on social media and said she was coming to Seattle, coming to town to grab wine with some of her coworkers. And that was it. I was just in this place where I was looking for an escape. And that was enough for me to go meet her,

knowing she was meeting for work. She could have been selling anything. She could have been doing anything. I was just so desperate for that connection and that night out. That's really, that's kind of just the place I was in. Let's talk about that because we have had experts on cults on this show.

It shocks a lot of people. I have a background in marketing and theater, but I actually studied for three years in college terrorist groups. And it might be a little far fetched to compare an MLM to a terrorist group. But what I've realized about cults, about churches, about terrorist organizations, and about MLMs is they prey on people, again, with churches, sometimes negatively, sometimes positively, but really people who are looking for some sense of community and some sense of belonging. And the people more susceptible to joining those things and becoming almost radicalized by them are the people who are in

either a season of their life where they do, to your point, feel very lonely or isolated, or they're just, they've never fit in. They're that person that's never fit in, in their communities, in their schools, in their life. Is that, does that ring true for you? 100%. And I think, you know, when you say, oh, how could terrorist groups and MLMs have anything in common? 100%. The coercive control, yeah, required to get you to believe some of these, you think some of these beliefs are so out there. It's the same, you know, it's the same techniques that get you roped into these, but 100% I had been lacking accolades in my life, like being recognized, getting a paycheck,

just the things you get in a job that when you decide to stay home with your kids, you don't have anymore. And then you realize, you know, when I was in that place then where I'm like, oh, I could go back to work because now I'm not having kids anymore. Well, how do I pay for childcare? I have to go back and get recertified. Like the barriers are so high. And what happens if one of the kids was sick? There was no side door for me. There were no options. And so when this came into my life, it was like, oh, okay, here's this someone who I know vaguely from high school. And so I can trust her. We grew up in the same town. She does this thing and she makes money from it. And she's home with her kids too. So there's gotta be something to it. It's just that,

that little, little spark of possibility. It took over any of those neutral or negative associations I may have had with MLMs. What you said is so interesting. I've never heard it put that way of like, no one is doing performance reviews with you about being a mom or like checking in with you over Slack and being like, hey, that like diaper change was really, really great. There's no admiration or even like the recognition. Obviously, no, there's very little recognition to being a parent and being a mother, but specifically compared to like corporate life, there's no attaboy ever. And especially when you give your kids so many accolades. I mean, everything has a participation trophy and a medal and it's all, it's different than the way I grew up, of course, but that's not

good or bad. It's just different. But then you're like giving all these accolades, you're giving all of this recognition and you're getting nothing. And like, you know, for Mother's Day, you'll get a cute colored picture or whatever, but you're like, what about the person I was before? My identity. Yeah. And, and I, I really, I remember being at my 10 year high school reunion. I don't know why I just thought of this, but that was my first realization. I had a baby and I was pregnant with my second. And so I show up to this reunion, you know, pregnant, nobody asked me about what's your job. What's your,

your degree in college or it was all about, Oh, so when do you do? And it was like my first, oh, it's all about my kids now. Like my, my life is like a chemist and all, you know, having a master's degree and all this stuff that's all gone now. Like that's, that's gone. It really took over. So losing that part of yourself is really hard and realizing that it's not easy to then go back into it. For a woman, for a mom, it's not the same. So we were mentioning before and talking about these cult-like tactics. You mentioned them in your book. The sense of belonging, the lack of identity, and then here's this new identity we can give you. That's definitely one of them. What are some of the other tactics that happened to you or that you saw? And then

what happened with other people in the MLM too? So I think right off the bat, it's the love bombing. Hey, boss babe. Yeah. Well, any desire for recognition is just, oh, you even just, you signed up. Oh, you joined our tribe. You know, you joined our group of boss babes, you know, you joined our team. And so you feel like you're part of something, even if you don't know what the hell any of it means. So you start getting those dopamine hits really early. And then you start getting like gifts and shout outs and social media tags really for doing not very much.

Usually it's just, oh, you signed up. And that feels really good. And that's done on purpose because it keeps you in. It keeps you in that community and you just feel like, wow, I'm part of something. And this is done not just from the people in the MLM, but also from the corporate level too. There's a reason why in MLMs, the first promotion or title or rank or whatever they call it in their MLM is very easy to hit. It requires maybe you buying your business kit, which of course is required. And then like maybe getting a customer

or something. So you very quickly, you're like, oh my gosh, I have all these people. And I just hit my first promotion. So you are immediately roped in. It just, the love bombing is really, really, really powerful. And as long as that hangs on, you will keep seeking that even in the face of not making any money, maybe losing money, very likely losing money, maybe pushing away friends because that is so intoxicating. It's almost like that quick dopamine hit for you to feel like, oh, I can do this. I can be successful. And the fact that it's literally designed that way. It's not just like the first thing was easy. It's like,

we are purposely going to make this first milestone easy so that you get roped in. The sunk cost fallacy, I think, is the other part of this that is so damaging. Again, so similar to the way cults operate, the way any sort of scam operates, where at some point you get so far in that the shame or the guilt that you feel both externally but also internally prevents you from doing the right thing, which is removing yourself. Because you're like, I'm this far in. I can't back out now. What if people think I'm a failure? What if I actually can't hack it? So I'm just going to stay in. Absolutely. And because it's this meritocracy where you're told, hey, you can be whatever you want to be. You can make as much money as you want. It's all up to you. This message is just

drilled into you and this personal development, these books, these courses, seminars you're given, it's all about you. And so, of course, there's nobody else to blame. It's like a secret science you can't crack. And so inevitably, like 99% of people lose money. If you're one of those people, then there's always more to do. Well, I should have read one more book. Well, maybe I'll try one more month, maybe next month. Maybe if I do this, maybe if I do that, there's always something else to achieve or to do busy work that you you're always going to think it's your fault. And there's all these memes shared and pictures that personify this, like someone like digging through a tunnel. And you can see on the other side is like this pot of gold and, you know, they're just right

there. And then the other person walks away. You never know how close you are. If you quit that message all the time, you only fail. If you quit, it's just ingrained in you stay no matter what. And this is not just financial it's through, you know, emotionally, like through your community too, because you start alienating people who rightfully have concerns about what you're involved in, who you're involved with. And that just drives you further into this insular world because these people are all, I mean, you can do no wrong, no matter what you do, you're great in their eyes. They compliment you They reward you they shout you out And then these people just they don't support you

And so you're just even more trapped. It is a cult every time I hear it described I have a weird obsession with cults as I think a lot of people do like I know a lot more than the average person And that's classic cult behavior as it's like, oh, well, you're not succeeding. Well, you're not, your buy-in isn't, you haven't bought in enough. Oh, you're not taking this seriously. NXIVM, I think, did this very infamously where they were like, you should take this other training because we need to see that you're serious. everybody else in their life who cares about them is like this isn't good for you they literally tell you oh well they're just jealous they're jealous of you or they don't understand or they haven't gotten right they haven't gotten the level of enlightenment that you have and so then it others you too where you've become so isolated from anybody who might be talking sense to you and you're so insulated in that group. And then by the company, you're given only their information. You know, if there is outside,

like there's a lawsuit or there's a blog post or there's a whatever, an article or a movie or like this book, you know, it's very much like, don't talk about it. Don't look at it. Don't read it. And here's information to say instead. So you're given only their propaganda. You're given their studies to share, but you're never told to look further or get information outside of their information. So you mentioned, was it 99%? 99.7% of people. Yeah. So 99.7% of people fail. And even if they do know the numbers, I know the stat and I'll cite it probably in the intro when I actually find it. There's this fallacy of the 1%, especially in America because we're such an individualist society. We all believe we're the 1% that can make it. We can look at the stats and be like, oh, 99%, 99.7% of people lose money,

but be one of those people. I think how much does that play into the joining of the MLM, the commitment to the MLM, this feeling that like, oh, even if I know the stats, I can do it though. Yeah. Because it's not treated like a lottery. We all know that we're not going to win the Powerball, but man, when it's a billion dollars, I'm going to go buy a ticket because why the hell not, right? It's not chance. People assume that, well, that 1% worked the hardest. They really pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. They worked the hardest. We have this very, that whole American dream, right? But MLMs really bastardize it because it's not just the worst parts of capitalism. It's again, this meritocracy where, oh yeah, you can do it. You can do it. Let's ignore everything that's

actually going on with your life. And actually the only people who can make money are the ones who can spend money. And actually the only people who can make it are the ones who get in early. And actually let's ignore all of that. And the stories you see amplified on social media are all these aspirational, like, oh, I was a shy kindergarten teacher and now I make $100,000 a month. And it's just the very few people out of the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people who all are just throwing money in the system and never making any. So it's that cognitive dissonance of, okay, I see the numbers kind of, but yeah, I see all these people who are successful and they look like me. They're relatable. And that's one of the

major reasons why if you go to any retention events, any conventions, any, anything where there's this big group things that you get together with these, these organizations, it's always like a sob story into this inspirational tale. So it's, oh, I was this and now I'm this. And that is by design because there is going to be someone who relates to it. Oh, I got divorced too. Oh, I'm a single mom too. Oh, I work in the medical field too. Oh, this, oh, that, oh, this. They have enough of a cross-section of different backgrounds with these rags to riches stories that you just feel like that could be you. For you, you actually, at least financially, succeeded in an MLM. You were part of the, what, 0.3% who actually became a millionaire from your

work. How did you step away if it was working for you? And what were the first cracks that like caused you to question it? Yeah. So the first thing is the language is really important here because, you know, the whole like, I was a millionaire. That's very loaded language because I did earn a million dollars in commissions over the course of that period. That's what a millionaire means in an MLM. That sounds great. However, it doesn't take into account what I spent. That's not a million in your pocket.

Oh, God, no. Seven years. Seven years. Yep. Seven years. So like you break that down, like still not decent. We'll cut that in half because taxes aren't taken out of commissions, right? You're a 1099 contractor.

So cut that in half. And again't taken out of commissions, right? You're a 1099 contractor. So cut that in half. And again, the expenses are huge. The products you have to buy are huge. You have to pay for trips and all of these conventions and retention events. The costs are really immense. And so when you really take into account, I was never a millionaire. I never had a million dollars, right? So yeah, I was making a decent paycheck every month, but a lot of that money was just going right back into the system. So that's one thing I always like to say when people are like, but you're a millionaire. Like, why did you leave? So my awakening was very slow. The biggest thing that opened my eyes was when I got sober in 2017. And, you know, my recovery story is very

entangled with the MLM story because I was really seeking the same thing with my addiction was like that escape, right? The glass of wine or the MLM, whatever it was, it was like something outside of myself. So once I got sober, I realized that I couldn't send the cold messages anymore. I couldn't send the cringy texts. I couldn't do the cut and paste scripts and I couldn't send the cold messages anymore. I couldn't send the cringy texts. I couldn't do the cut and paste scripts and I couldn't not take no for an answer over and over. Right. And so I was like, huh, okay, that's interesting that I can't do those things. And I just kind of thought, well, I'll just change my, my tune. And, you know, I just won't do those things anymore. By the time I got to that point, I was already so high up in the MLM that it really wasn't my own work that was keeping me there. Because again, it's the work of the

people at the bottom of the pyramid that is promoting the people at the top of the pyramid. So I was kind of in this weird place where, okay, I'm still making money. I'm not doing the things that make me feel cringy. Then I started noticing lots of other things. I started noticing that, huh, I really thought everyone could do this because I did all the things I was told and I became successful. And I'm telling my team to do these things and they're not. And I realized they were doing everything. And it was just the fact that saturation, like there's too many people selling the same thing in the same area, you know, saturation. Like there's too many people selling the same thing in the same area,

changes in the social media landscape. There were a lot of reasons why the people beneath me weren't succeeding. And it wasn't just that they weren't working hard. So I couldn't ignore that anymore. You know, I eventually, I let my business, I always use air quotes here because, you know, it's not a business. It's a 1099 contract opportunity. I kind of let it go on autopilot. I talked to like my customers. I talked to the people on my team and just said, hey, this is what I'm feeling now. I used to really believe in this. Now I don't. I'm kind of going to go dark. I'm not going to sell anymore. I'm not going to post on social media anymore. And then COVID happened. And I had gone into this road of recovery advocacy and I became a recovery coach. I started down this different path.

I started writing, I wrote a recovery memoir and what I saw during COVID was really the nail in the coffin. It was the just blatant predatory behavior of people trying to make money off the backs of people who were losing money. Oh, you lost your job, come join this pyramid scheme. And then selling products like, oh, our essential oils cure COVID. And then the misinformation machine,

it was ripe in the MLM world. It just seemed like every conspiracy theory was not just only going viral. It was like just the lack of critical thinking that I saw of people just believing their uplines, their uplines sharing something. And then it just infiltrated their entire teams. And I couldn't ignore that anymore. And then I saw lots of PPP loan fraud that I couldn't ignore. And that was enough for me to just say, I cannot even be associated with this anymore. So I finally like terminated my account. That was it. It was like the last straw. So we discovered in our research, something that I would love to talk to you about because when I first read it, I'm going to be honest with you. I was like,

woof. Oh man, you, unfortunately, and I'm so, are you recovered? Are you in remission? Yes. Okay. I'm so glad to hear. So you were diagnosed with cervical cancer, what, 2014? Is that right? 2015. Yeah. 2015. Okay. And someone, I think in the MLM kind of prompted you that you should use it as like a marketing tactic. So talk to me about that. Yeah. So this again was so common in the MLM world to again, use these vulnerable stories, whether it was, oh, my husband left me or my mom died or whatever, and use it to promote your products. And so it wasn't unusual that like that sort of tactic wasn't unusual. So when it was suggested to me, like, Hey, make lemonades out of lemons, right. That, you know, you have this horrible thing happen. Maybe, you know, maybe you can make something out of it.

And so I was like, well, what if I did like a fundraiser or something? So on its face, that sounds great. Like fundraisers sound great and they are, if they're done with good intentions, right? You know, last week, a local pizza place in town did a fundraiser for the Maui fires and yes, they get the business from it, but like the profit was going to Maui. So it's like, you're supporting your local community and this tragedy that happens. Like the money's all staying locally and going to this thing. So it's like, you're supporting your local community and this tragedy that happened. Like the money's all staying locally and going to this thing. So there's nothing sideways about it. And so that's kind of how I was like, oh, well, it's a fundraiser. I'm sending all my profits

to this, basically this charity fund at this hospital that I was being treated at. That sounded great to me. But in an MLM, I'm not a business owner. So anything that people were coming to buy, they buy like a skin cream or something. Sure, maybe I was giving my small profit to the charity, but guess what? My upline was still getting a cut. Their upline was still getting cut, their upline and the parent company who was making most of the money. And that's not something I took into account, nor was I told to take it into account. Because again, this was such a common practice to use a tragedy to be charitable when really I was getting a signal boost and so was everybody else.

And what I could have done was just say, hey, can you guys donate $20? Here, give me $20 and I will give it. Like that would have been the charitable thing, but to filter it through the company. So that was something that in the moment, again, felt really good because I didn't use critical thinking skills to think it all the way through. And so when I did, unfortunately, have a cancer relapse in 2017, end of 2017, that was the first thing that I remembered was like, oh my God, I used this to sell shit. And again, I was sober by that point. I was like clear headed. I was kind of thinking more critically about things. I thought, gosh, that was duplicitous. So I always like to say like, I have empathy for myself. I have empathy for other people who

do these things. I joined this thinking I was doing a good thing. People don't join these thinking they're going to scam people. And so I look back and like, what can I learn from that and do differently? And that's why I wrote about it. Because again, this is so common. And it's funny because there were so many other outlets that picked up that essay that I wrote. And the title was like, Woman Scams Millions for Cancer. And I'm like, oh, God. I'm looking at the Daily Mail article. I know. And then I'm like, okay, if you get your info from the Daily Mail, go read the original essay that I wrote, right? But it's just funny how those things are taken

out of account. but that's what makes it easy to say, oh, well, you're just a bad person. It's not the system. It's not the company. You're the bad apple. Right. You're the bad apple. And that's just not the case. It's the system of coercive control. It's the system that makes us think we're doing something good when we're actually harming people. So like, let's talk about it. Well, and on its face too, I'm like, yes, but so much of marketing is like branding and storytelling and how you tell your story. Right. So part of me is like, you know, and lemonade out of lemons. Okay, great. That's

where I think it's again, like couched under that because people at their core aren't bad people. They're trying to do the right thing. And they're like, oh, okay, maybe that's, maybe that's okay. And then when you start digging into it further you're like okay this is getting dicey we have had a couple folks on the podcast to talk about the importance of sobriety i didn't plan on asking you but i would love to know you've mentioned a couple times like it sounded like substances were part of the reason that you couldn't think clearly or were like kind of shrouding your decision making during that time What was the relationship at the time between you trying to grow, again, business in quotes, and your substance use?

Yeah. So they really fed on themselves. My drug of choice was alcohol, which is easy in the culture today. And especially as a mom, that mommy wine culture of like, oh, your kid's crying, have a glass of wine. It feels very unalemning too. Oh, completely. Just like bus babe, Chardonnay, Chardonnay all day. Yeah, rosé all day. I mean, I had a phone case at one point that said rosé all day on it. I was wine girl. I was champagne girl. That was part of my personality. And also the MLM was part of my

personality. So there's this all-encompassing thing. Like wine isn't just something you do. It's just not a thing you drink. It's part of your personality. So I think that was part of it. Again, it was like this escape and then they really fed on themselves. So the more I drank, the more loose I was with my lips and I would talk to more people and I would send more messages and I wouldn't care if someone said no to me, I'd keep bugging them, right? So it wore down my inhibitions enough to do things I wouldn't normally do. And then the more sales I made, like it created a need to drink more because then I'd meet people out for wine. I'd create events with alcohol around them. And a lot of these, you know, there's lots of parties in these MLMs,

cocktails and conversations and sangria and skincare. They're always centered around alcohol. And so that fed on itself. So the more I drank, the more successful I was, the more successful it was, the more I drank. Well, and that can't be an accident for the rest of the potential customers too. If you're obviously inhibited, you're more likely to make a decision that you wouldn't have if you were sober. So that can't be an accident. Right. And that's the night I signed up.

I had a few glasses of wine. I probably wouldn't have so easily given over my credit card information. You know, it's definitely part of it. You hit on it in your book title, and it's so obvious, I think, but the internalized misogyny of this whole, this whole thing, it's, it preys specifically on women, right? We know, especially like Herbalife has been unfortunately infamous for preying on people of color. I think largely the Hispanic community. How do they rely on that internalized misogyny? How are they baking it in, in order to maintain their success?

Yeah. So it's these faux female empowerment projects. They are sold as, you know, be your own boss babe and make your own hours, have everything. You know, you can have it all. You can be home with your kids and you can be a CEO. You know, all these feminists, like cringy boss, like that I used to throw around myself. It all makes you feel like you're doing something that's empowering other women. And yet the people who are making money are the very few women at the top and the men at the white men who are CEOs of these corporations. So there's all of this double speak of, oh, screw your nine to five, you know, make your own hours. And yet this corporate America, like, oh, we hate corporate America, but all of these companies are corporations. They're all huge

corporations run by white men. So you're supporting these companies that you supposedly malign and hate, and you're supposed to be empowering women, but all the people losing money are all women, and the people making money are men. So it's fake. It's all this fake language. And then I think the reason that stay-at-home moms are such good bait is that our unpaid labor is already supporting the entire economy, right? So we're used to working for free. So if you're told, hey, you can post on social media and maybe make some money, well, it's labor. Like it's, oh, it's free.

Like I'm already doing that work for free. So I'll do more unpaid labor that will probably lead me nowhere. And again, it's that hope, like the hope that maybe I'll be that 1% will keep all that logic away from my brain. So again, it supports the patriarchy. It supports white supremacy. And I got a lot of pushback at the beginning when the title was announced, like, ooh, supremacy. And it's like, look at the picture

at like any leadership event or any convention from any MLM. do you see a lot of Black women there? Do you see a lot of Asian women there? Women, period. Yeah. Well, it's all white chicks. It is all white chicks who are at the top of these pyramid schemes, and that is not an accident. And you have to have money to be successful. You have to get in early. And if people don't see themselves represented, they're not going to be drawn to those opportunities, nor would it be safe for them there. And I can never think of an appropriate way to say this probably, but in a way, MLMs and the people they target and the way they target them is so racist. It's so specific to an avatar of a white woman that it actually protects a lot of

people of color from getting involved in them. Of course, Herbalife, there was a lot of the Hispanic community that was targeted, but for the most part, it's white women. And yet you're told no matter what, you can succeed. No matter what your background is, it couldn't be farther from the truth. The irony in me asking this question is that when we had discussed MLMs in season one, when we had done our first episode about MLMs, there were people in the comments saying that we weren't feminist because we didn't support women with small businesses. Well, what do you say to that? A hundred percent. Oh, and I probably said this. I'm sure I said this.

So what is your definition of support? So a lot of people will be listening to this one. They're like, well, shit, I buy this from my friend. I go to her parties. I support her. I don't like MLMs, but I just support her. That is not support. I heard that a lot too from the first episode where they were like, I don't believe in them, but my friend does this and I care about her and want to see her succeed,, I don't care. She is getting a very, very small portion of that money. More of it's going to her upline, her upline, her upline and the parent company. So the people who are profiting off of this, not your friend, it's just driving your friend more into this insular world where she's going to spend more money and more money and more money. If you want to be supportive of your friend, give her that $20 or take her out to lunch.

Babysit her kids. Ask why she's involved in this MLM in the first place. Is she looking for friendship? Step in and be a friend. Don't buy that stuff. Don't support her pyramid scheme. Be that friend. Maybe fill up her gas tank.

I don't know. Ask your friend what they need, why they joined that in the first place, maybe fill up our gas tank. I don't know. Ask your friend what they need, why they joined that in the first place, and then support them that way. Because buying stuff from your friends in an MLM, going to their parties, keeping this ruse going is just going to keep them stuck longer because eventually it upholds it. Yep. Eventually they will fail. Eventually they will run out of money. But just hopefully, like, before they destroy too many friendships or lose too much money, they will realize that their support, air quotes, is dried up. So don't keep fanning the flames.

Well, and like you said before, it's not a business. It's not a business. It's a corporation. Yeah. You're not running your own business. It's not a business. It's a corporation. You're not running your own business. You're not managing the expenses and the finances and the revenue and hiring your own people. That's not a business. No. Nor are you keeping track of what you're spending, which again is by design. You're never told to keep a profit loss statement. You are told to spend, spend, spend, spend.

Which is like business 101. I know. But again, it's not a business. Yeah. When people are like, oh, you're not supporting small businesses. I'm like, it's not a business. It's a corporation. It's not a business. You're supporting a huge corporation and the people at the top of the corporation. You're not supporting one thing i would be remiss if we didn't touch on is the deep evangelical influence of mlms as well you talk about how faith is often weaponized in these businesses as a way to manipulate people into staying and sticking it out how How did you see that play out? Yeah, the faith manipulation is huge. And I will say like on the team that I was on, there was definitely like the prayer breakfasts

and the prayers before convention or whatever, but it wasn't weaponized. I didn't feel like it was weaponized against me. And maybe because, I don't know, I didn't pay attention to it too much. But as a whole, God is, again, it's that prosperity gospel, right? So the prosperity gospel is all woven in. And then there is this evangelical idea of, again, it's like your purpose.

This is your bigger purpose. And MLM is not just a job. And again, it's not a job because you don't have a salary and you don't get rights. You don't have any benefits, but it's more than just going to work and then coming home. It takes up so much of your life and it becomes like, oh, this is my vehicle for change. This is my vehicle for this. This is my purpose, my greater purpose. This is your purpose from God. This is why I was put on this earth. And so it takes on this whole different vibe. And so if you are a person who has a faith in God, has a belief, you know, maybe you're a member of a church, whatever, that gets weaponized against you because not only is it, well, it's up to you,

but gosh, maybe you didn't pray enough. Maybe God doesn't bless you as much as blesses other people, Pray enough. Maybe God doesn't bless you as much as blesses other people, right? So it's really damaging in that way. And I think MLMs do a really fantastic job of taking anything that we already flagellate ourselves with, you know, diet culture, you know, the fact that there's not a lot of different bodies shown on, you know, like it weaponizes all of that. There's no body diversity. The faith manipulation is really, I think, the most damaging because here you are thinking, well, I just wasn't a good enough boss, babe. But it's like, oh, also God doesn't like me.

Like how terrible is that? You know? So I think I got a more outsider perspective of it, but I definitely saw, I knew women, know women who, you know, are Jewish, for example, who were bullied, like, you need to convert to Christianity because the rapture's coming. And I mean, I saw all kinds of things you couldn't believe around faith. And it's scary when you're in that position, when it's your upline telling you these things, and you already maybe are a person who kind of believes in that hierarchical structure, like, oh, I go to my pastor, I go to my priest, I go to my deacon, and then, oh, this is my upline.

So all of a sudden, they're like the person you're going to for your business advice and your faith advice. It's very damaging. And the community. And the community. I was saying before about how both good and bad, typically faith communities are your sense of belonging for a lot of people and your sense of community. Again, some better than others. And cool, your MLM can not only provide you community and money and identity, but it can replace your church. You don't have to go to church anymore because you're going to get the Jesus stuff right here. Yeah. And MLMs run rampant

in church communities because again, they're their own closed systems already where people mostly believe the same things. And so if someone comes in and they're like, wow, I believe all the same things as you, I'm the same as you, and I'm selling collagen pudding, join me. So you're going to be like, cool. And you're going to join this other thing too. So it just, it kind of bastardizes the whole thing. I'm so angry. I'm so angry. I know.

Well, and I do have to say before I forget it. So the dream podcast was really the first information outside the commercial cult that I let myself listen to because there was such this push again, if there was like a negative, anything, it was like, oh, don't go listen to it. Don't increase the SEO of it. Don't, you know, whatever. And then you're like, you're telling me not to do something. I'm going to go do it. Yeah. And so it was like, okay. And so I did that for about, but then once I started questioning things, I was like, I've heard about this podcast and I'm going to listen to it. I already knew that I didn't like the MLM. Like there was a lot of things I wanted to get out of it. I'd gone dark,

you know, but that's when I realized I was in a cult. Listening to that podcast, I was like, oh shit, I am in a cult. That was the first thing I listened to that I was like, this is more than just me feeling like I'm doing something scammy. This is more than just the financial manipulation. This'll get us started. One of the things that is perpetuated is you're going to get a free car, like the Mary Kay free car. But I've discovered that you still have to pay payments? Question mark on that car? Let's kick it off with the free car. Oh yeah, the car's not free. I think that's one of the biggest ruses is, okay, so here's how it works. So you qualify by hitting whatever metric it is within that company. Almost every company has a car program. So you hit that metric, whether it's a sales

figure and it's usually organizational wide. So you and your entire downline has to sell, I don't know, $120,000 worth of something in the month, right? And you have to do that for a certain number of months. And again, this varies from company to company. When you do that, you are a car qualifier or a car achiever. Okay. So now what you get to do as a car qualifier is go to your own local dealership and depending on what the car program is, it's either a Lexus or Mercedes, a Cadillac. They're always like luxury cars. And you go and you buy your lease or car with your credentials, with your credit, with your... It doesn't have a company name anywhere on it.

You go buy your own car and you put down the down payment. You pay for the title, the taxes, registration, everything. So then you send all this stuff to the company. Look, I bought this car. Then they will give you a stipend. And this is anywhere from $250 upwards of maybe $1,000. That's the highest I've heard of. And again, these are luxury cars.

So that's not usually enough to cover the payment. So you're essentially getting a supplement to pay toward the car payment. So now you're spending more money per month than you were before. And if you do not hold that title that you achieved, you do not get the stipend that month. Oh, so it's not just like you're like, it's not the price is right where they get you a free car and here's your car. You have to maintain. No, friend. No.

You were just buying a car. You were just buying a car. You were just buying a car. And as long as you maintain this title, they give you a little money towards it. You're essentially just getting a little bonus every month. But if you don't maintain that title, you don't get it. And then you're stuck with a car payment. This car is just yours. Which might be a benefit, but that's not a free car.

It's not. It's rarely a benefit because you're spending more money. Right, because you have to. But what happens, and people are like, well, you don't have to get the car, do you? Well, no, you don't have to. But guess what? You've been shouted out everywhere as a car achiever. The company's plastered you everywhere.

Are you going to then not be driving the car? You have the word car tattooed on your forehead. It's a requirement. I know. You're a car achiever. Why don't you have a car? You have to, you like have to get it. You're ashamed into getting it. And I mean, I still have the car. If people are like, do you still have the car? I'm like, yeah, it was my car. I bought the car. I was getting a stipend, but that car was mine. So everyone who's driving these cars, like the free car, it's not free. It's not the company's.

They just bought a car. And they may or may not be getting a stipend from the company. Most people do not maintain the title. Other myth is that you're a business owner. You're not a business owner. What other myths am I missing that you want to debunk? I mean, the myth that anybody could make it, which could not be further from the truth. Right.

The myth that you don't have to spend money. You do. It's all you're doing. It seems like it's just spending money. Yep. The myth that it's only certain companies. That's one thing I hear. It's like, oh, my company is not like that.

Yes, they are. Yeah. And if you are willing to look at the research and you are willing to look at all the numbers and look at all the income disclosure statements, they are all the same. They are all the same. It is not about the product. It is all about recruiting people into the system to continue to dump more money into the system.

They are pyramid schemes. That's the other myth is like, well, pyramid schemes are illegal. That thought-stopping cliche, I'm sure you've heard that. Oh, so much. It's like, yeah, they are. John Oliver, as I'm sure you've seen the John Oliver story. He did a big splashy MLM thing a couple of years ago. And I think either pulled an interview or did an interview with one of the CEOs. And it was like, you're a pyramids game. And they're like, no, of course not because that's illegal. And it's like, draw me your company structure. Draw me draw me your company structure. Draw me the way your company operates.

It's a fucking pyramid, y'all. It's a pyramid. Yeah. And just because something's illegal doesn't mean illegal things don't happen. That's like saying, oh, you didn't get robbed. Robbery is illegal. No, people do illegal shit all the time. They jump through enough hoops to keep themselves legal enough to stay in operation.

It doesn't mean it's not a pyramid scheme. It is 100% a pyramid scheme. So yeah, that's one big one that people like to say. And then, yeah, again, my MLM is different. If you work hard enough, you can make it. And then if you don't like the system, you must just be a hater. You must be a hater. You must be anti-woman. I'm sure there's many, many more myths. I wanted to end on, you mentioned this before, if I'm out there listening

and let's first say I'm in an MLM, what is the procedure of what I need to do to get out in a way that's going to prevent maximum damage? So I would say, first of all, if you're listening to this, don't feel judged. Don't feel shamed. Don't feel called out. 100%. I know you got involved because you thought you were doing a good thing. Yep. Yep. And maybe you still feel that way. And that's very cool. Everyone has their different level of how involved they are. But just look at a couple of things. Do a profit loss statement. First and best thing you could possibly do, write down literally every expense you've had, depending how long you've been in, maybe go back a couple of months, go back a year, everything you've paid,

childcare you've had to get, any decorations and food and alcohol you had to get for events, time you've had to take off your actual job, whatever. Any money that has come out of your pocket and gotten to this MLM. Then look at how much you've actually made. And then cut that in half because again, taxes haven't been taken out yet. And then do a little math. Look at how many hours a week you spend. Be really honest about the little texts here and there, the Zoom calls you have to get on, the threads that you're on for these power hours and all this other bullshit. And just do a little math. Okay, I'm making this much money per hour that I'm working. That I think for most people would be enough to say, oh my God, this is not worth it.

This is not worth it. The value I'm getting from this, first of all, I'm losing money. For most people, it's going to be, I'm losing money. And then I would say, ask yourself why you joined in the first place on a deeper level. What were you looking for? Did you want products at a discount? Because I'm going to tell you that MLM products are really inflated in price. So go ask your dermatologist or whatever. You're someone at a supplement store or someone who maybe can give you a less biased answer. Products you can find a lot cheaper. Okay. So if you want cheaper products,

there's a lot of, a lot of places to get cheaper products. You don't need to pay money to get cheaper products. That in its face is just, no. If you are joining for a community, look elsewhere for a community that doesn't require someone making money off of you. Maybe an affinity group. There's lots of them out there. Meetup group. Maybe you're interested in rock climbing.

I don't know. Join a gym. Lots of ways to make a community. And if you're looking for money, don't join something that you're going to spend money for. Go through, ask yourself all of those things. don't join something that you're going to spend money for. Go through, ask yourself all of those things. And then I think, take a look at how you feel you are as far as your level of harm. I have a lot of friends who are still in MLMs who for whatever reason can't leave because again,

they feel like they'll lose friendships or this is how they make money and now they're stuck, right? So that's not a condition of friendship for me, but I would say, look at your level of harm being done. If you're a person like you like the products, you know, you got a customer here and there, your level of harm is probably pretty low. If you've got a team of people who are losing money every month, like just be willing to look in the mirror at the level of harm you are inflicting and who you are keeping, again, in this insular world of people who are just dumping money into the system. For me, the harm was too great to continue to make money off of. So I think that's important to look at too, but give yourself grace, have empathy for yourself, have empathy for other

people. Maybe the people who've left your own MLM, the people who give you advice to leave your MLM, maybe they're not such haters after all. Maybe they just have a point or two. That's super helpful. Let's talk to the people who are listening, who have friends who are running an MLM. How can we talk to our friends in a loving way, but also try to show them what's actually going on? You gave the great advice before of as hard as that may be, don't buy their

shit. How can we talk to them? How can we, again, you beautifully said, I'm not trying to call you out. I'm not trying to make you feel ashamed, but how can we start to have those conversations in a way where somebody is actually going to listen to us, the person that we care about. Yeah. I think again, by being the soft place to land when they inevitably quit or realize that it's not working for them, because that will likely happen. Most people last about four years. It's kind of the average. Well, a lot of people, I shouldn't say that most people quit before a year. So the people who try to make it work, who are married, usually it's about four years. So they're going to fall into one of those camps. It's going to be flash in the pan, or they're going to really try and stick it out for a while.

So be the soft place to land. Again, don't buy their stuff. Don't go to their events. Don't host events for them. Don't join their team. Say no thank you. Say no thank you nicely. And be the soft place to land. It is probably likely that anything you're going to say will just reinforce what they've been told from their MLM that you're a hater, that you're not supportive. And so again, be willing to kind of be the soft place to land when they inevitably fail. That's, I think, the hardest place to be. And I know because I was in that place. I was the person who you could have told me until you were blue in the face that I was

in a cult and I would have just said you were a hater and probably spent less time with you. I think that's a really hard place to be. Emily, thank you for your work. Thank you for your vulnerability and transparency. I think that's so important always, but especially where there's so much shame and guilt and all of those emotions wrapped up in all of this. So thank you. Where can people find out more about you? Yeah. So I am Emily Lynn Paulson on most platforms. My book, Hey Hun, is in stores wherever you buy your books. Please support your local bookstore if you can, but it's available everywhere. And also if you're ever looking for sobriety support and you're a mom, you can find out more information at SoberMomSquad.com.

I love it. Thank you for being here. Yeah. Thanks, Tori. Thank you so much to Emily for joining us. Again, so important to talk about how these companies impact people and how MLMs just get perpetuated as these really good business opportunities for women and people of color, but how they're truly just scams. For more information, we'll link it in the show notes. John Oliver, a couple years ago, I mentioned this in the episode, did a great segment about MLMs and how damaging they are, especially companies like Herbalife. I really encourage you, if you're interested more in this topic to go and watch

that. There's also the Dream podcast, as well as our interview with Jane Marie from season one. If you're interested in diving into this topic more, as well as Emily's book called Hey Hun, that's available wherever you get your books. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for just allowing us to continue talking about these really important subjects so that we can hopefully prevent people from getting scammed and prevent people from experiencing bullshit financial schemes. So thank you for being here and thank you for your support of the show. We hope you have a great week and we'll see you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist,

a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tamisha Grant, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Khalil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda Lefeu, Masha Bakhnikeva, Kaylin Sprinkle, Sumaya Molok-Rio, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Arielle Johnson, audio engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K,

our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.