Financial Feminist - 154. Why Do We Hate When Women Have Money?

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

“Men are allowed to ask for what they're worth. They're allowed to show up as the fullest version of themselves. They're allowed to take up space. They're allowed to purchase things without the shaming judgmental comments. Men are allowed to pursue wealth in a way that women just aren't.” Tori Dunlap Have you ever felt guilty about wanting more money? Have you ever felt shame around wanting to charge more or get paid more? This episode of Financial Feminist tackles the deep-seated societal narratives that discourage women from pursuing financial security and independence and exposes the double standard that exists around money and wealth. Men are celebrated for their financial success, while women are expected to be selfless and prioritize the needs of others, often at the expense of their own financial well-being. This episode is a must-listen for any woman who wants to challenge the status quo and build a life of financial freedom.  Join Tori Dunlap as she dismantles the myths around women and money, and equips you with the tools and confidence to take control of your financial future. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/154-why-do-we-hate-when-women-have-money/.  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Mentioned in this episode: Get the Financial Feminist book Join the Financial Feminist Facebook group Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And if you're just joining us, we're live from Evan's living room. It looks like Evan is about to purchase tickets to today's match. Kate, the real test is, will he use the BMO Toronto FC Cashback Mastercard? What if he wants to earn cash back on his purchases, he will, and... Oh, hang on. He's at the computer with his card, and he's done it! Oh, clicky-click, magic trick! The click heard around the room! You guys just about finished?

Sorry, we got excited. Thanks for snagging those tickets. Make every purchase highlight worthy with the Beemo Toronto FC Cashback MasterCard. To uncover your potential with the all new LG Gram Pro laptop. Staying as light as a gram, this powerhouse is here to elevate your workflow. Powered by Intel Core Ultra Processor

with AI enhanced capabilities, you can keep your cool and stay in control of your work with advanced power dual cooling. Welcome to the pro life with LG Gram Pro. Experience the power pro. Get your LG Gram Pro today. Pro anytime, anywhere. So I came to Kristen with this episode concept. I've written that my entire book is basically about this. All of my work is basically about this, which is why are we so uncomfortable with women pursuing money? And yeah, we're just launching right into it today.

I'm Tori. I host this podcast. Welcome. Here's the thing. Kristin, the reason this started was I was at the gym and I was walking on the treadmill and I was doing my little hot girl walk and Planet Fitness where I go, no, it's not sponsored, it's just Planet Fitness, is every, you know, in front of the treadmills are like 20 TVs, right?

And you've got Guy Fieri on the Food Network and you've got stupid Fox News and you've got, you know, Good Morning America on ABC. And then you've got stupid Fox News and you've got, you know, good morning America on ABC. And then you've got this Discovery Channel and Chris, I don't know about you, like I grew up, like we watched Deadliest Catch religiously in my house. Okay, well, it was like set in Alaska, but there were people who lived in the Pacific Northwest area.

Apparently it's still, I saw this research the other day, it's still one of the most popular American television shows. Like it's so popular, especially in places like the Midwest, which makes sense. And so I was watching Discovery Channel while, you know, watching 12 other things on the various TVs. And I don't even know what show it was. It was the like catch big fish, sell, make men money show. These shows where they like, the tuna is this big and they have to go out into the middle of the ocean and catch the tuna.

And then it's a boat full of dudes. And then they come back to this other dude who buys the tuna. And then there's this moment of tension where you're wondering how much does the tuna cost. And I will make a point, just give me a second. And you're like, how big is this tuna and how much money are they going to make? And then the guy goes, well, I'd give you, and then it's like, and then they cut to all three of their faces and he's like $14 a pound. And they're like, yes, we just made $350,000 off this one fish or

whatever it is. And then this show wraps up and American Pickers comes on, which is on History Channel, I think, but History Channel is right next door to Discovery Channel. And if those who haven't seen American Pickers, it's your dad's favorite show. Maybe it's just my dad's favorite show, but it's these two dudes who go out and they drive around the country and they go get stuff that's antiques and like signs for old oil companies and they go to basically hoarders houses. And the guy who's there is, you know, oh, I wouldn't sell this thing. And they're like, how much would you take for it? And they're like, oh, I, you know, I'd charge you 300. And then the guy

goes 200. And then they say 250. And then they bring it back to their shop What is my point with this? Well, I'm watching these shows They're all men usually white men and they're all talking very transparently about how much money they're making and Negotiations are happening in a very accessible way negotiations are happening in a very accessible way. So this tells me, it's just yet another example for me over and over and over again, that men are allowed to pursue money. And in fact, we give them literally like platforms

to do it on. They're allowed to be transparent about money. They're allowed to talk about bringing in a lot of money and they're applauded for it. They're worshiped for it. We see this on a more massive scale with Elon Musk, right? Now, I think he's getting more and more criticism as the days go by, which thank goodness, but there is a certain subset group of people, typically other straight white men, who look to people like Elon Musk and think, oh my God, that guy's so incredible. He makes so much money, right? Or we'll have TikToks of like, I made $500,000 drop shipping. Here's how you can do it too. And the comments

are not what the comments would be for women. The comments are, wow, you're doing so well for yourself. How do I do it to do it? That's so cool, right? So I'm just launching right into it. But the thesis of this episode, as well as the thing I spend way too much of my time thinking about, is why do we hate women with money? Or why do we hate women who pursue money when that standard is not for men as well. So let's go back a little bit. When I was doing research for my book Financial Feminist, I was realizing in my own life that as I was progressing towards financial independence, towards being a millionaire, something interesting started happening, which is comments on my Instagram, comments even from like people who were

adjacent to me in my life, like not friends, but maybe friends of friends, there started being this conversation of why is she charging for her services? Or why is she so transparent about money, it's really tacky and gross. I've said many times on this show before, but I just want to say, again, the pursuit of wealth is not a bad thing. The pursuit of wealth is not a morally corrupt thing. The pursuit of wealth is not a morally corrupt thing. I don't want a stack of government issued paper that doesn't get me anything. I want what money can buy me. I want choice and freedom and flexibility. And in a society that is capitalist and corrupt and disenfranchises marginalized groups, you having your own money means that you get to have those choices and freedom and

flexibility. A financial education, having money, is our best form of protest in that system. So me pursuing money isn't just so I can stockpile it, it's so I can take care of myself, so that I can take care of my family, just so I can stockpile it, it's so I can take care of myself so that I can take care of my family so that I can hire people so that I can donate to causes I believe in so that I can do really cool fucking things with a business that changes people's lives on a day to day basis. The fact that I even have to say this though is part of the reason we're doing this episode, which are men are allowed to pursue money. They're worshiped for it. And women, there's a double standard of you don't

want to have more money because it's greedy. You asking for more money, you asking just for what you're worth is greedy. It's gauche. It's impolite. And the comments that I get a lot, which is, well, if you really cared about this, you would just do it for free. I'm sorry. Have you ever said that to a man? Well, you're a doctor. If you really cared about saving people's lives, you would just do it for free. We're not going to compensate you for your work. We're not going to make sure that you get money to be paid. Social workers get paid nothing, but still, oh, if you really cared about it, you would just do it for free. Like, no,

you deserve to be compensated for your work and you also deserve to charge for your work. I literally had an Instagram comment yesterday that sent me into a little aggravated tailspin from someone who follows us, which said something like, you used to care about helping people and now you just care about selling your own products. First of all, I care very deeply and I'm not going to convince you that I care. The second thing is we deserve as women to charge for our expertise. I also have people to pay, which is, I feel like

I don't even have to say a justification, but when you're running a business, you're allowed to charge what you're worth. End of statement, period. I also have expenses because this is a business. We have other people who rely on us charging. We are not a nonprofit, we are a business. And this is just, I will never fully understand or know how much sexism plays a part in like my day-to-day life as an entrepreneur.

But I feel like even the very thing the company stands for, which is women pursuing wealth unabashedly, we still have members of our community who have their own hang ups about money who then go like, why are you charging? You should just care. First of all, we have so many free, and I can say first of all, because this is like fourth of all, we have so many free things too, right? It would be different. Maybe if I was offering you no value, if I was doing nothing to aid and contribute to your life and then being like, buy a $3,000 program. First of all, none of our programs are $3,000. They are all under three to $500 with most

of them being like 5050 or $100. So that's the first thing. Again, I'm on a rant. We can cut any of this we want, but just we have a problem in society. Men are allowed to charge what they're worth without anybody batting an eye and with no justification. They're also allowed to spend money on whatever they want to spend money on without justification. So I'll tell you another story. This is in my book as well. I mentioned her name, but she's been a

guest on the show. She has her own podcast, Victoria Garrick Brown, friend of mine. She hosts Real Pod. She got married to her husband, Max, I think about a year and a half ago, but when we talked, they were engaged and she was planning her bridal shower. And I remember her texting me this like, you know, this long of a text message. If you're on YouTube, you can see, but I don't know, like a foot, two feet long text message, you know, you know, those where you like just wake up and you get this huge long message from a friend and you're like, oh boy, here we go. And basically it was her feeling guilt and shame because for her bridal party, she wanted to buy this really nice designer dress that she never told me how much it cost, but probably cost a little bit of money. This was a very important day to her. She wanted to look really nice. She wanted to feel good in her body. She wanted to buy this nice thing for herself. And yet she was feeling all of this guilt

and all of the shame because she knew that if she posted a photo, which she would likely do because she's a very online person and also wanted to celebrate this day, that the comments would be like, how dare you spend this amount of money? Why aren't you donating that money? That's such a frivolous purchase. What the fuck are you doing basically? And we've talked many times on the show about even the word frivolous when it comes to spending is inherently gendered. Frivolous spending is not video games or NFL season tickets or golf clubs, things that are stereotypically masculine. It's designer gowns, right? Or lattes or manicures or getting your

hair blown out at the salon. That's the frivolous spending that is keeping you from becoming a air, right? So I asked her, hey, if Max bought a Rolex watch, and he went on the golf course and posted a photo of it, what would the comments be? And she already, you know, she and I knew what the answer was. Cool Rolex, bro. Looks like you're doing well for yourself. That would be the comments. Or they wouldn't even pay attention because it's like, oh, of course a man has nice things. Or of course a man can afford these things. But instead her comments are, what a frivolous waste of money. That's not even your money. That must be from somebody else because there's no way it's your money. That's not even your money. That must be from somebody else. Cause there's no way it's your money.

And this is the perfect example of really what I'm talking about here. Men, whether it's on the discovery channel or Tik TOK, or just in day to day life are allowed to ask for what they're worth. They're allowed to show up as the fullest version of themselves. They're allowed to show up as the foolish version of themselves. They're allowed to take up space. They're allowed to purchase things without the shaming judgmental comments. Men are allowed to pursue wealth in a way that women just aren't because of a theory that I talk about in my book called weaponized altruism.

Let me explain to you what I mean by that. I'm going to use the gender binary in this example just because it's easiest to explain what I mean. Stereotypically, growing up, what are the toys that boys are given? They're given Legos, trucks, things to build, right? They are told that their value to society is in their own ingenuity, their own resilience, their own self-reliance in building things creatively, and even if they fail, building them again. What are girls given? What kind of toys are girls stereotypically given? Easy bake ovens, dolls, bridal veils, right? We give a literal child another child to take care of.

That still blows my mind. We give a three-year-old girl a doll that's her baby, right? What does this tell girls? It tells girls that their value to society is in how giving they are of themselves to someone else. It teaches them to be altruistic. It teaches them that their needs don't matter and that their value to society is how much they give of themselves to somebody else. Now, I am not saying that altruism is bad, that donating is bad, that being giving is bad, but women are held to the standard and men are not. So what happens when these boys and girls grow up? When the boys become men, they become entrepreneurs. They become business owners, right? Or they become people who are allowed to pursue money and who are told over and over again that failure is an option and that it's okay because you can just

get right back up again. We live in a society in a system that is okay with men's failure. Oh, that first business didn't work out. Try again. You didn't get the promotion this time. Well, you're probably going to get it next year. Men are allowed to pursue money, are allowed to see themselves as their most valuable asset, and are also allowed to fail. When girls turn into women, again, you can figure out what happens. We teach boys to be resilient. We teach girls to be perfect.

So we are so afraid of making a mistake because society will not let us make a mistake. And we don't trust ourselves. And instead we put so much of our worth on what other people think of us because that's what we've been taught to do. And we don't pursue wealth. We can't pursue wealth in the same way

because this altruism is ingrained in us. This altruism is part of our DNA where we then feel guilty for wanting money for ourselves, or we feel guilty for the pursuit of wealth, or we feel guilty for buying that nice dress for our bridal shower so we can look beautiful and feel confident on one of the most important and incredibly celebratory days of our lives. Broccoli boots it over the line. What a goal! How would you like to pay, sir? Credit, please. Make every purchase a win with the Beemo Toronto FC

Cashback MasterCard with up to 5% cashback on your purchases in your first three months. Terms and conditions apply. To uncover your potential with the all new LG Gram Pro Laptop. Staying as light as a gram, this powerhouse is here to elevate your workflow. Powered by Intel Core Ultra Processor with AI-enhanced capabilities, you can keep your

cool and stay in control of your work with advanced power dual cooling. Welcome to the Pro Life with LG Gram Pro. Experience the power of Pro. Get your LG Gram Pro today. Pro. Anytime. Anywhere. What happens then when women do start to pursue money?

What happens? The altruism that is beautiful, that I'm really proud of as a woman, that I think of others needs before my own. That altruism gets weaponized towards us. When we do start thinking to ourselves, hey, maybe I'm worth more than the shitty job. Hey, maybe I need to start charging more for my clients that I freelance to.

Hey, maybe I do want to become a business owner and want to charge for my services and get compensated fairly. Hey, maybe I do want to be a millionaire someday. Maybe I do want to build wealth. Maybe I do want money, what money can buy me and those options and those choices. Maybe I do want to get rich. What happens? The patriarchy panics. They utterly panic. They realize that you will soon no longer be controllable. Because that's really what this is about. Money for the wrong hands. If money is in the wrong hands or exists in this patriarchal structure, money is about control. And they see you demanding your own worth and pursuing

wealth unabashedly. And suddenly the patriarchy realizes, holy shit, if she continues down this path, she will have the power to make her own choices, the power to sway elections, the power to build a more equitable society and community. And we can't have that. So the patriarchy weaponizes our altruism. They say, why aren't you donating more in the comments? They tell you, well, why are you asking for more money? You should just be happy with what you have. They tell you that the pursuit of wealth is greedy or gauche or bad, and that it's tacky for women to want money.

And I know you all have experienced this because I, this is my whole, like, life is talking about this. And I still literally experience this on an hourly basis. The patriarchy realizes you're no longer controllable and so weaponizes the altruism that's built in your DNA to make you doubt yourself. And again, I just want to be very clear. This is not me saying hoard your wealth, never donate, right? It's instead there is a standard for women that men do not have. Men are allowed to unabashedly pursue money. They don't have to justify it. They can pursue it for themselves. And that is applauded, not just neutral, it's applauded. And when women do it, the patriarchy realizes that you're getting money, which

means you're getting power and you're getting agency and that you're no longer controllable. And that, my friends, is the patriarchy's worst nightmare. An uncontrollable woman is the patriarchy's worst nightmare. An uncontrollable woman is the patriarchy's worst nightmare. And as I say in my book, I love being the patriarchy's worst nightmare. I love showing up as the fullest version of myself, unabashedly pursuing wealth, not because I want a certain number in my bank account, but because that money gives me options and choices and allows me to make the world a more equitable place.

So what can we actually do to buck these narratives and fuck these narratives. But like, what can we do to actually feel better about pursuing money? Well, first, maybe parts of this episode absolutely blew your mind and made you realize, oh shit, I've been playing small, or I've been guilty about wanting money, because I'm worried it's going to make me a bad person or because somebody told me that I'm greedy if I ask for what I'm worth. So maybe acknowledge how that's shown up in your life. And I will make a shameless plug for my book because everything I just said is literally what my entire book is about. I wrote Financial Feminist to talk about not just the actionable ways

to save money and pay off debt and start investing, but also all of the narratives we're fighting as women every single day when it comes to our pursuit of money. And we also have journaling prompts as well as a workbook built into my book. So please, if you haven't read it already, this will help. My Financial Feminist book will help, whether that you haven't read it already, this will help. My financial feminist book will help whether that's ebook, hardcover, audiobook, you can also get it for free at your local library. The other big thing we can do, we've said it on this show, we will say it many times again, is to develop better habits around talking about money. Because if we can start to talk about money, can start to talk to other women

about pursuing wealth unabashedly, about paying off our debt, we can collectively come together and say, yes, having this financial education, having these financial conversations is our best form of protest in a society and in a system that constantly disenfranchises us. So do not be afraid to share your accomplishments boldly.

I will say, an accomplishment for an accomplishment. I think I'm really good at this. I have had to cultivate that though. And almost every time I say something like, I'm a New York Times bestselling author, or I'm a Forbes 30 under 30 recipient, or I have built a multimillion dollar company before the age of 30, or I think I'm a really good partner and friend, what will happen is that someone will shit on me. Always, literally always. And it hurts more when it's somebody who you might care about or someone who you might

respect. That's really hard. But sharing your accomplishments boldly not only allows you to show up for yourself and to be proud of what you've accomplished and what you've done in a society that, again, wants to minimize your accomplishments, but also is a permission slip for other women. I know that I have made an impact with other women in doing this because I also get the comments that say, you celebrating your own accomplishments

allows me to celebrate mine. And that's so fucking cool. So don't be afraid to share your accomplishments boldly and be excited about what you've accomplished and also gas up your women in your life who have also accomplished really fucking cool things. And I will also remind you that accomplishments do not have to be tied to a man. We'll do a whole other episode. I'm sure about this someday, but a lot of what we celebrate for women, big milestones we celebrate are getting engaged, getting married, having babies. We also need to celebrate getting

divorced, getting sober, getting a master's degree, starting a business. Those sorts of things are just as much of an accomplishment as getting married, having a baby. We also need to talk openly about our friends, about our salary and about theirs. Tell people if they're being underpaid or undervalued. Have open conversations about money because men are doing this shit. Now, again, we live in a society in a system that encourages that, that encourages men to share numbers and pursue wealth. But the way we start to change that society, but the way we start to change those societal narratives that women aren't allowed to talk about money is by bucking them, is about talking about them. that women aren't allowed to talk about money is by bucking them, is about talking about them.

So if you don't already have a group of friends that you can talk openly about your pursuit of goals, about your money, about your salary, find those friends. And we have an entire Facebook group of friends. We have over 100,000 people who are willing and able to talk openly about money. And we'll link that down in the description if you want. It's free to join. Same thing, talk about investing, talk about building wealth. We want to talk about as much as we're talking about salary and saving, we also want to talk about the wealth building strategies that actually make a difference in our lives, that secure our financial futures. And do not let someone you care about talk badly about themselves or their ability to handle money. If you hear a friend or a loved one go, I'm just so bad at money,

I want you to kindly stop them and say, you're not bad at money, no one taught you this. So it's okay, and I'm here if you need me. Or I overspent and I feel like a piece of shit. You have to encourage people around you as well as yourself because you might be telling yourself these things too. Your mindset really matters. The narratives you tell yourself really matter. The language that you use to talk about your relationship with money or the language your friends are using to talk about their relationship with money. That matters. them that they were never taught this. This is not a, we don't live in a society that again allows the pursuit of money but teaches you how to do all of this shit. It's part of the reason why we do the work that we do. We need to erase from our vocabulary, I'm bad with money, you're not bad with money, this is a

skill just like everything else, you're learning. You're not bad with money, you're learning. Or I'm bad at math, so I'm bad with money else, you're learning. You're not bad with money, you're learning. Or I'm bad at math, so I'm bad with money. No, you're not. Math isn't about money. Math is about psychology. I will remind you, I'm a theater and communications major. That's what I did in college.

I'm not the best at math either, but I'm really fucking good at money. It's not about being quote unquote good with math. And finally, I talked before about how men are allowed to fail. They're allowed to try something over and over again, because we teach them resilience and we tell them that that is actually their value or something that is a good trait. I need you to just get started. Take a shot. I know every time you hear me say this on this podcast, but I don't need you to be perfect. I need you to start. Imperfect action beats inaction every single day. I've said this about investing in particular, but I'll just say it in general. The worst decision you can make when it comes to your money is making no decision at all. None of your debt gets paid off unless you do something.

Nothing changes about your debt unless you change it. Nothing changes about what you have in your bank account unless you change it. Nothing changes about you not using compound interest to your advantage with investing unless you change it. Yes, we've got all of these systemic factors that are at play here, and we acknowledge those and talk about those all the time. However, we do need to control what we can control in order to take care of

ourselves and then change the system for everybody else around us. Do not try to be perfect. The pursuit of perfection is a fool's errand. I'm like very philosophical today and I really love it. But the pursuit of perfection is absolutely unobtainable, inaccessible. But you taking action, even if it's imperfect, is the best thing you can do right now. So you know me, I'm all about actionable things. If you are hyped up about this episode, you're like, fuck the patriarchy.

Fuck everybody telling me that I can't pursue wealth or that I, it is wrong for me to have money. Fuck people who think and fuck a system that thinks that I am a worse off person because I have money. I am not going to hate myself and hate other women who charge for their services, who get paid fairly, who get paid according to their expertise and fuck anything that tells me to play small in order to conform. Let's talk about what we can actually do. Have conversations, right? Talk openly about money.

You can go to herfirsthundredk.com slash quiz. It is free. Why wouldn't you do it? Go take the quiz on our website to get a free personalized money plan, especially if you're way too overwhelmed with everything financially and you're trying to figure out where to start. That's how you get started. If you haven't listened to other episodes of this show, there are over 150 episodes. We would love to see you in some of the other episodes, especially ones that have our step-by-step guidance there. And like I said, my book, my book literally teaches

you exactly how to get paid, exactly how to get book literally teaches you exactly how to get paid, exactly how to get out of debt, exactly how to start investing, exactly how to create a budget that doesn't make you want to die. And it's free at your library or under $20 at your bookstore or on Audible. I so appreciate you being here. I've been wanting to do this episode for a while because it's something that I literally encounter on a day-to-day basis. Yes, even as a multimillionaire, I get told constantly, why are you charging? You should just do it for free.

Or just, there's so much pressure on women to be controllable, right? Really, I don't have to say anything more. It's all back to the thesis, which is, when you have money, you're no longer controllable. And when you start to pursue that money, the patriarchy panics, realizing that, oh shit, she's going to get to the point where I can't control her anymore. So they start flinging these arrows at you of all of the things, right? Donate more, you're frivolously spending, why are you charging for your services? It's

daddy's money or your husband's money. It's not even your money. The pursuit of wealth is not wrong. The pursuit of wealth is not bad. It gives you choices and options and freedom and nothing bad happens when women have more money. Thank you for being here, financial feminists. Thank you for, as always, continuing to support the show and I hope you have a kick-ass week. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist,

a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristin Fields, associate producer, Tameesha Grant, research by Ariel Johnson, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Medcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel, Amanda LeFeu, Elizabeth McCumber, Masha Bakhnakiyeba, Taylor Cho, Kaylin Sprinkle, Sasha Bonar, Claire Karonin, Darrell Anne Englund, and Janelle Reisner. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen

Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100k team and community for supporting this show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100k, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.