Financial Feminist - 163. How to Connect in a Lonely World with Kasley Killam

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

What if the secret to living a longer, healthier, and happier life is simply to connect more with others? It’s an interesting idea — and one that our guest today happens to be an expert in. In this episode of Financial Feminist, Tori sits down with renowned social health expert, Kasley Killam, MPH to discuss the concept of social health and how it affects our minds, bodies, and overall happiness.  This conversation covers some surprising facts about loneliness, especially after COVID, and how even small interactions can make a big difference. We'll also talk about the pros and cons of social media when it comes to our connections.  You'll learn how some simple changes can have a major impact on your life. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, this episode is packed with practical tips to combat loneliness and build stronger relationships. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/163-how-to-connect-in-a-lonely-world-with-kasley-killam/.  Visit Kasley’s website to connect! Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz. Special thanks to our sponsors: Thrive Causemetics Get an exclusive 10% off your first order at thrivecausemetics.com/FFPOD Masterclass Get an extra 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/FFPOD Squarespace Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Hill House Visit hillhousehome.com and use the discount code TORI at check out for 15% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Neuroscientists have hooked people up to their scanners when after they've been isolated for long periods, and they've compared that to people who didn't eat for a long period. So they're comparing isolation to hunger in this instance, and the same brain regions are activated in both those cases. So what that shows us is that connection and isolation, loneliness, these are cues in our brain, right? We need to connect just like we need to eat healthy foods. It's literally as vital. Hello, financial feminists. Welcome to the show.

We are so excited to see you. If you're an oldie, but a goodie, welcome back. And if you're new here, hi, my name is Tori. I run her first 100K, which is a money and crew platform for women. I believe I was put on this earth to fight for your financial rights. If you are so overwhelmed with money and you don't know where to start, you can go to her first hundred K.com slash quiz and get a free personalized money plan after about six questions.

It's our way of eliminating overwhelm for you and actually getting you started on your financial journey. So again, that is her first 100k.com slash quiz. You can do it right now, assuming you're not driving your biking or doing something that involves heavy machinery. Okay. Let's talk about today's guest because this was a very important and also very fun episode because it turns out we're basically the same person. Casley Killam MPH is internationally recognized as leading the advancement and understanding of social health as a graduate of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health,

sought after advisor and keynote speaker, and founder of Social Health Labs, Killam has been improving global well-being through connection for over a decade. Her collaborations with organizations like Google, the US Department of Health and Human Services, and the World Economic Forum contribute to building more socially healthy products, workplaces, and communities. Killam's insights can be found in outlets such as the New York Times,

Scientific American, Psychology Today, and Washington Post. We're talking social health today, and if you don't know what that is, it is so important and arguably the most important part of our health, but no one's talking about it, and why it might be one of the most important part of our health, but no one's talking about it and why it might be one of the most invaluable forms of time currency we have. We're talking about the impact of loneliness on an individual and a societal level, including some very shocking statistics, but also not surprising about how loneliness impacts your physical health. We're also talking about some strategies to build stronger relationships and combat loneliness, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. Just such a powerful episode, especially if you feel like you haven't found your community

or you need a new community to feel that sense of connection, or you're just feeling really lonely, especially like post pandemic or like as we're transitioning out of the pandemic. So really great episode. Without further ado, let's go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. This episode of Financial Feminist is sponsored by Thrive Cosmetics, Squarespace, and Masterclass. Refresh your everyday look with foolproof vegan products made with clean skin loving ingredients. Get an exclusive 10% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com slash FFPod. Build a beautiful website to get your message out into the world with Squarespace. Go to squarespace.com slash FFPod to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200

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can wear the same dress whether you're running errands or whether you're going to a wedding that evening. You can go to hillhousehome.com and use discount code Tori at checkout for 15% off your purchase. Is it your office? Is it? Where are you? This is my office. Yeah, my home office. I work from home. For audio only listeners. She is in front of this beautifully constructed bookshelf that I need you to come over because I literally just spent three hours doing my bookshelf and I still don't like how it looks. I took everything off of it. And we just like this is still not it. But it's like color coordinated and then flowery, a pink wallpaper with a peacock on it. And I'm just obsessed with it. Honestly, organizing bookshelves brings me so much peace. I will happily come over anytime and organize your shelf for you. You've got a little Yoda too. I see a Yoda and then a Buddha next to the Yoda.

I do. There's a Buddha. Yeah. There's a lot of fun things. I love it. Yeah. I like it better than I liked it before, but still it's like Timothy Chalamet cardboard cutout. Like where are we putting that with all the rest of the box? Stop. You do not have a Timothy Chalamet cutout. Hold please. No way. Oh my gosh. Where did you get that? Hold on. And I also have, this is the really cute one.

I'm such a Dune fan, like was way before the movies. So the fact that you have this is amazing. Like two or three years ago, this was a gift from a fan. Stop. It is a Timothy Chalamet devotional candle again for audio only listeners. And it says Saint Timothee Chalamet devotional candle again for audio only listeners. And it says St. Timothy Chalamet. And then on my book tour, somebody made me this guy. Oh, that's so cute. This is hilarious. He's a little like Timmy from Dune. He's got his

little cute knife, his little Chris knife. And he's just he's just loving life. And he was hand painted. I cried somebody gave me this and I was just like, my gosh, so he sits on the shelf too. I love this so much. There is no movie that I have seen in theaters more than Dune. And Dune 2. Kristin is just so upset because all I've been doing

on this show, she's had to cut so many times and be being like, Dune 2, Dune 2. Okay, how many times have you seen it? Three so far, but I like to pace it. I have seen it three and I'm not kidding. I literally just posted it on Instagram stories the other week. I'm like, do I see Dune for a fourth time? Second time in IMAX. It's been like two weeks since I've seen it and it's two.

I like miss it. I need to go there. Okay. I literally, my local theater was giving out t-shirts a week in advance. So I went to like the pre preview of it and got free t-shirts. I wish I had it here. I should have worn it. I didn't know you were this big of a fan. Oh no, I have, I think he's referenced probably 10 times in my book. Like this whole thing's a sham to get to Timothy Chalamet. Like I don't care about money. I don't care about phone. I care about Timothy Chalamet. No, I, did you get the popcorn bucket? I did not. I didn't either.

I feel like only a select few people got the popcorn bucket. Yeah, it's pretty controversial. Yeah. But I, I feel like it's lower now. No, I'm listening to the audio. But like, I'm fully in Dune. I love this so much. I'm like fully in it fully tapped in. I'm like the Benny Jesurit or icon. Did you read the books? No, I hadn't read them. Oh, okay. I was purposely trying to go in blind and then was like, yeah, saw Dune two so many times where I was like, okay, this is really cool. And then literally I was just like on like Dune Wiki being like the Benny Gesserit,

what is the breeding program? What is the breeding line? Like I was fully in it, I'm fully in it now. I love it. It's a rare movie where I read the books actually years before and it not only met my expectations but exceeded them. And that's so rare for a book to do. So yeah, love it. Oh, and especially Dune was like the thing that everybody talks about is

completely unadaptable. Like because it was, you're in media res, it just drops you in, you have to figure out a bunch of shit. And I feel like, yeah, as I'm listening to the audio book, I'm like, wow, they did a great job at the screenplay. They did a great job actually, like, cutting things that were superfluous that we don't need. Because like half the book, it feels like is like, just people being like, how do we go to war for like 20 minutes? Like, that's the entire book is just like, two people talking about what is the best battle strategy and like, doesn't make a compelling movie. So they nailed it. Yeah. No, I love it. I'm not just saying this. My partner makes fun of me because he's like, you just like it because Timothy Chalamet is in it. I'm

like, no, I don't. I think it's a fantastic movie. I think it's one of the best movies in a long time. You've convinced me to go see it again. I agree. Both of them. Yeah. Both of them are iconic. Yeah. This is not how I saw this podcast going, but I love it. I love it. This for an hour. We can't I mean, don't tell me what I know, but I am interested in your work and why you're actually here. So we're going to transition right into social health. But tell me what it is that brought you to that world of social health. What was the initial prompt? Yeah, I am so passionate about this topic.

I feel like since I was a kid, I was fascinated by human connection and perplexed by it and trying to understand it. I remember being a kid on the playground in elementary school, watching the social dynamics between groups and with my friends. And truly from a child, I was paying attention to that. But there were various experiences throughout my life that made me really want to understand how we can build more meaningful relationships. For one thing, I grew up in a very loving, wonderful family, but there was conflict,

there was divorce. My parents got divorced when I was young. There were estrangements in my broader family, which is something we don't talk about a lot, but is actually super common. And so I wanted to understand how do we empathize better? How do we get along across differences? And then as I got older,

I realized that I was an introvert trying to fit in in a very extroverted world. When I got my first job and things like that, it was trying to navigate how do I balance socializing with the solitude that I need? How do I thrive professionally while also taking care of my own needs for rest? And then I moved around a lot, right? I've lived in three countries and I think it's 12 or 13 cities and towns now, which is way too much moving around. I don't say that as a good thing,

because every time you move, you have to make new friends and build a new community and stay in touch with loved ones who are far away. And so I had to figure that out numerous times. And so I was trying to make sense of this throughout my life and trying to figure out, you know, how do I navigate these things. And I turned to the research. I'm a social scientist by training. I studied psychology as an undergraduate student. I studied public health as a master's student. And I was fascinated by the data. Like when I first came across studies where scientists were actually running experiments around human connection and studying these issues, I could, my inner nerd just freaked out.

I couldn't believe there was research about this. And so I turned to that for answers and said, how do we take these research insights and actually apply them in our own lives to live better lives through connection. And that has been my mission over the past over 10 years now, studying that, applying it in my life, applying it with the communities and organizations that I work so excited to talk to you about all of this. We have to first define though, before we really get into it, because both for, you know, the rest of this conversation for me, but also for a listener, like, how would you define social health? Like, what is a really like broad definition of what we're talking about here? Totally. And this term is not well known. It's not part of the mainstream public conversation. So absolutely, let's start with the definition. I define social health as the

part of our overall health and well-being that comes from connection. So if you think about physical health as being about our bodies and mental health as being about our minds, social health is about our relationships and our sense of community. That's the basic definition, and we can go into much more detail on what that looks like, what it means to be socially healthy, but at the highest level,

it's really about recognizing that it's not just exercise and sleep and nutrition and things like that, that make us healthy. It's also whether or not we connect on a regular basis, whether we feel loved and cared for and seen and understood, whether we feel like we're part of a community that brings us a sense of belonging. All of that literally determines, in part, how long we live and how healthy we live while we're alive. What you just said at the end there is something that I learned a couple years ago that I think

blew my mind, which is like one and like the hierarchy of needs. Yes, it's like food and water and oxygen, but it's also like safety and community and belonging. And I also learned that a huge chunk of people who, you know, age and get older don't die from physical health complications. They die from isolation. They die from like lack of interaction with people, lack of, yeah, friendship and community. And in your book, you talk about the actual health implications, dementia, strokes. Can we talk specifically about this data and what it's showing us and then why it's specifically so alarming? Absolutely. Sure. So let's dig into some of the research first. So in the book, I kind

of categorize the health benefits of connection and the health risks of loneliness in three ways. The first is longevity, the second is physical health, and the third is mental health and happiness. So the research shows now at this point we have decades of studies with literally billions of participants from psychologists, epidemiologists, neuroscientists, and so on, showing that first of all people live longer when they are meaningfully connected, when they have supportive relationships. And this has been shown in a number of different ways. One of the most interesting and kind of first studies that looked at this was done in the

70s, where they followed about 7,000 people over close to a decade. And they found that men who lacked kind of close social ties and community ties were twice as likely to die during that period. And women, on the other hand, were almost three times as likely to pass away. And this was taking into account, you know, how educated they were, what kind of lifestyles they lived, whether they went to use their local health care, if they smoked, if they eat healthy food. So it was taking into account all those other health behaviors that we do.

And still, what rose above was the fact that people's social connections were predicting whether or not they were going to live a long time. So longevity is one piece of the puzzle. The second category is around our physical health, right? So how healthy we actually are when we live. So people who are isolated or lonely on a regular basis have a higher risk of stroke, of diabetes, of cancer,

of complications, of worse recoveries when they're diagnosed with an illness. So across a number of different ways, we see that people's health outcomes are worse. So our relationships seem to protect us from getting sick in the first place and then help us heal once we are diagnosed with an illness or disease. So it's really important for actually being healthy as well as living long. And then that third category which is around the quality of our lives, right,

our mental health. Isolation and loneliness is linked to depression, it's linked to cognitive decline, and of course connection makes us happy, right? We feel good when we're surrounded by friends, when we have loving family members, when we feel like we're part of a community and embedded in a group that we feel like we belong in. So across all those varieties of ways, we see that people are healthier, happier, live longer lives through connection. So what you're really saying is being lonely or loneliness is killing us. Absolutely. Absolutely. And when researchers compare, you know, the toll of loneliness on our

risk for mortality, it's comparable to all these other things that we know are bad for us. Smoking, obesity, air pollution, things like that. Loneliness is on par with those. So we need to really take it seriously. And what's worrisome right now is that a lot of trends in the US, but also in countries around the world, are showing that more and more people feel disconnected, right? So people in general feel like they don't belong in their communities. Three in four Americans don't feel like they have a sense of belonging within their community. 64% feel like they don't belong within their workplace, which is a place where we're spending a lot of our time. Globally, we see that about 20% don't have anyone that they

can reach out to for help and rely on. A lot of people are lonely. Last year, the US Surgeon General declared loneliness an epidemic formally and issued an advisory and national strategy around this. Other countries like Japan and the UK have appointed ministers for loneliness. So clearly something's going on here and we really need to pay attention to this and really start to elevate social health and recognize that it's as important as our physical and mental health.

Yeah. So when I'm thinking about the causes, like, I have a couple in mind that I'm wondering if we can talk about. The first that is so glaringly obvious to me is we just all went through a global pandemic where we were forced to isolate. So what has the pandemic or what has been the impact of the pandemic on our social health? Yeah, it's a really interesting question. So certainly the pandemic took a toll, right? It was hard for all of us.

I mean, let's be real. Personally, I will say, yeah, oh, worst mental health days of my life. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. health days of my life. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. And speaking about our relationships in particular, it literally kept us apart. I couldn't see my family who was in Canada for two years. Literally I couldn't see them in person and hug the people I love most in the world for

two years. That's absolutely awful. And so I think we all have experiences where we felt disconnected, we felt the toll that that takes on our health and our well-being without question. I will say however that some of the research is surprising and gives me a more optimistic outlook. So certain studies that track people over time found that while there was kind of this dip and this decline in social health initially,

people adapted fairly quickly and found ways to still feel connected despite being apart. And that over time as the pandemic entered a new phase and we were able to be back in person, that those effects kind of went away. Now, a lot of this is, it's complicated and thorny and the research frankly is still emerging. But enough studies have come out showing that we're resilient and we figured it out in a lot of ways that

I'm left actually feeling really optimistic that we can, when we're decisive about it and decide to prioritize it, we can feel connected despite circumstances like the pandemic. Yeah. I mean, I can speak for myself as an individual, but I think a lot of people feel this way of it's kind of like, you know, you don't know how good it is until you don't have it. I feel like so many people now are seeking that in-person connection and that in-person experience because we couldn't have it for multiple years. So I do feel like in that way, it's made us more grateful for the time we do have and in that way, it's made us more grateful for the time we do have and made us like seek it out more.

Absolutely. It made us all appreciate our relationships more. It made us recognize the value and how it literally feels in our bodies to be alone for so long. It's awful. So we all experienced firsthand what the research has been telling us for decades. And as a result of that, it's catapulted us into the stage collectively where more and more people realize that connection is a health behavior like brushing your teeth or like going to the doctor once a year. Right. It's something that we need to do regularly. And it's forced us into this conversation where we can talk about this and where the US Surgeon General is saying, hey, loneliness is a problem.

Let's do something about this. So in that sense also, I think we've actually reached a tipping point in large part thanks to the pandemic where we're collectively catching up to what the research has been showing us for a long time. So the next one that's on my mind that's kind of related and that I have been dealing with remote work. I don't, I go sometimes a full day or multiple days without seeing anybody because I'm

just talking to myself in my office. So there's so many valuable parts about remote work, but there's also as someone who really gets a lot of energy from other people. And like I, I miss that a lot. So let's talk about remote work and the impact that's made. Yeah. And I work from home too. I'm in the same boat. There are entire days where I realize I have not interacted with another human other than my husband in person. And that's not good for us.

So yes, remote work is absolutely a challenge for social health. And I think it's one that a lot of us are still contending with. But the biggest thing I can recommend is for everyone to be intentional, whether that's with your remote work situation or whether that's just out and about when you're going about your days.

So for me, that's looked like creating support groups of people, mentors, but also colleagues who I can talk to, both one-on-one relationships and groups that I'm a part of, where we can reach out and ask for support and ask questions and confide in one another. And really doubling down on making sure that I have supportive relationships so that when I start to feel alone in my work, I'm able to reach out to them. And I'm sure that's something you can relate to too, but it just takes extra practice, right? We're not seeing people in person all the time.

So yeah, it's a challenge for sure. Yeah, I think for me, it's, you know, with a completely remote team, we do some like virtual co-working, which isn't the like in person that you crave, but it it's, you know, with a completely remote team, we do some like virtual co working, which isn't the like, in person that you crave, but it's like, you know, better than just all of us isolated. And then, you know, with the team that is in the same city, we do like, at least once a month, we do like actual co working together. So I've also had friends who, you know, co working spaces or meeting at cafe with another friend who works remotely and you work at different companies, you do different jobs, but you're just

there physically together. I feel like that's something that's been really helpful for me. Absolutely. And I spent a lot of time later in the book talking about how we spend so much time working. We literally spent more time working than we do seeing our family and friends. So our coworkers are a huge opportunity for social health. It's a huge opportunity for regular connection. And so, you know, given how much time we spend working, if that is predominantly isolated or lonely,

that's going to have huge long-term effects on our health and well-being. If that's predominantly connected in meaningful ways, which doesn't necessarily mean connecting all the time, but having the support we need and enough interaction to feel fulfilled, that's similarly going to have a huge impact on our lives overall. So we really want to pay attention to that. And then also recognize that, that you know social health comes from all of our different relationships so if we're not feeling maybe we see a lot of people still go into the office or go into their physical workspaces and maybe they don't feel connected in those places and there are ways that they can try and foster more connection but it's also

about recognizing that in that case you can also rely more on your friends and family outside of work, on your neighbors, on your community, on the hobbies that you enjoy and the groups that you can form around those. So recognizing that any one person or any one group that you're part of isn't gonna fulfill all of your social needs. So how can you diversify and make sure

that you're getting your connection, quote, a met in a variety of different ways at work and elsewhere? Yep. I love that. Third places. Talk to us about what a third place is and why there's less of them and how that impacts us. Yeah, absolutely. So a third place is this idea in sociology of the places where we go together. So a first place is basically your home. A second place is this idea in sociology of the places where we go together. So a first place is basically your home. A second place is your workplace or your school. And a third place is all those in-between places

where you can connect with friends, family, community. So things like libraries and parks and coffee shops and restaurants and community centers, those are examples of third spaces. And when I was doing my master's at the Harvard School of Public Health, I was studying solutions for loneliness. And I found in the research all this amazing data

on how literally the physical places that we spend time in influence whether or not we end up connecting with people. And so the importance of third places is vital, right? It's a vital resource in our lives where we can actually physically go connect with one another. And we need to be investing in third spaces to make sure that we have those opportunities for connection on a regular basis.

You know, whether that's going to a coffee shop and just being around people, which I love to do. I wrote a lot of my book in a coffee shop or at the library, my local library as well. And sometimes it's nice to just feel other people around you. But then it's also about bringing those third places to life through activities and programming,

through events, through things like that so that we can actually meet new people and interact and go a little bit deeper. So it's being around people in those spaces, but then also actually having those opportunities to connect, make new friends, and start to develop meaningful relationships. Yeah. For me, that's looked like group fitness classes. Like it's good for me, that's looked like like group fitness classes, like it's good for me. But it's also like I missed going to bar classes so much in the pandemic, because, you know, I missed the structure, I missed the movement. But also I missed just being around people, especially as somebody who works remotely. That was

like, sometimes, yeah, my only connection was like, going and seeing people in bar. So yeah, that was my that was and continues to be one of my third places. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. You know that we love Squarespace. They are one of the first resources, actually the first resource we ever used at her first 100K. It was the first investment I ever made in my business was signing up for a Squarespace website.

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about how to code. Go to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you about how to code. Go to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash FF pod to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So as you might know, I am going to a wedding in Italy this summer. It is in the Amalfi coast. It is going to be hot. It is going to be like 90 degrees.

I have to wear pastels. I don't own pastels and um curvy girl. So a little hard to fit. So when Hill House reached out to us about sponsoring the podcast, I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because Hill House Home invented the viral nap dress and you're thinking nap dress, but the nap dress for the wedding. Oh, it's like flattering and it's comfortable and they've got like their signature little smocking fit. It's flattering and it's comfortable and they've got their signature little smocking fit. It's so great. So whether you have weddings or a vacation or you just need something comfortable to survive the heat in, Hill House Home makes fun fashion that makes you feel good.

The other cool thing is that they have this one signature dress with some other styles too, but in every single color or pattern you could possibly want. So whether I'm vibing with my normal, like black vibes, or I'm going pastel for the wedding, they've got me covered. You can use discount code Tori for 15% off your first purchase at hillhousethome.com. I was thinking about that while you were talking of the third place. I think, I was thinking about that while you were talking of the third place. I think obviously we have every generation that goes by gets slightly less enthusiastic about religion and about like organized religion. And from previous generations, I think that that was a huge

source of belonging and of community and of purpose. Outside of your work, outside your home was your church or your synagogue or your faith community, right? And I think that, you know, especially millennials in Gen Z, we know from the data are like less and less religious or less and less, you know, more spiritual maybe, but not going to church or going to some sort of organized place. So I imagine that's also contributing to the loneliness that we feel. Yeah, for sure. I think the latest statistic I saw on that was that about 30% of people in the US don't affiliate with any religion right now, up from about 5% in prior decades. So we're definitely seeing that fewer and fewer people are affiliating with

religion, but also going into places like churches where they're actually meeting with other people in their community. So yeah, that's for sure contributing to it. And what I find interesting is thinking about what are people turning to instead of that, right? If we're not going to a church, for example, every Sunday, where are we going to find that sense of community? And a lot of people don't know where to go and aren't finding it, which isn't a good thing. Or

hopefully we're finding new and creative ways to connect through digital means or through other groups that we care about, whether it's like you said going and working out, right, a hiking group, a book club, things like that. But we need that community. It's so important for our social health, for our physical health, for our mental health. And so if we're not finding it in religion, we need to find it somewhere else. Well, and you mentioned social media, which is like the last one of my little post-it note lists that I was keeping. So many parts of social media, like I, you know, I live on social media, our business lives on social media. So many parts

of that can offer community. And so many parts of social media feel even I, you know, I live on social media, our business lives on social media, so many parts of that can offer community. And so many parts of social media feel even more isolating, and even worse. So I don't know, my actual question was going to be a social media, a good thing or a bad thing. But I know that that's not that's a very black and white, not nuanced question. I imagine it's both. It is both. It's absolutely both. And the studies are showing that it's really about how we use social media and technology that determines whether or not it leaves us feeling more lonely or more connected.

So when we're mindlessly scrolling on social media, not actually interacting in a meaningful way, which raise our hands, we all do it. That's not fulfilling. That leaves people feeling more lonely, anxious, depressed, and so on. But when we use it to stay in touch with people or to meet new people or to actually deepen relationships in some cases, that's super powerful. In the book I write about a woman who was going through cancer and used a support group online

where all her friends and family could consolidate their support in one place and see a to-do list where they could help with different tasks to make sure that she was on track with her care regimen and send her more messages so that she didn't have to stay connected with everyone and update everyone all the time. It was all in one central place.

That's a great example of using technology to feel more meaningfully connected with other people. But this also gets at a bigger question, which is that, you know, to really be socially healthy, sure, there's a lot that we can do as individuals. And my entire book is full of practical recommendations so that we can all be empowered to live more meaningfully connected lives. But it's also going to take all of the organizations, the companies that are building these social media tools, and then also the policies that we enact in our society, the health care system and how it's paying attention to these issues, the education system and what

we're teaching kids from a young age about how to be socially healthy. It takes all of that broader context changing as well. Yes, there's a ton that we can do as individuals and we should feel empowered to be more socially healthy. But also with social media in particular, we need to make sure that the incentives in these technology companies are such that it's actually supporting our physical, mental, and social health. Yeah, all drains lead to the ocean for us on this show where it's like, okay, there's, you know, there's individual intervention, but then there's, you know, all of the interpersonal and institutional community policy levels, like all of that has a bigger factor on how lonely we feel compared to like, how much are we getting out there?

And it's a much bigger part of the equation and the pie than just your own individual choices. 100%, right? It's whether socially healthy behaviors were modeled to you by your parents, whether you were taught social skills and emotional intelligence growing up. It's whether in your community, if you feel safe leaving the house and able to access transportation

to even get to see other people in the first place. It's all of these things. It's the policies around parental leave that influence how much time we can spend with our loved ones when we bring a new life into the world. It's all of these things collectively, the third places and so on and so on, that are influencing our social health. And so while we work on those tackling those bigger issues and the broader context around us, we can also be taking steps every day to strengthen our social muscles individually. I jokingly call this the transition to when the hunt for belonging turns sour. But I studied

in my undergrad, I wrote my thesis on terrorist groups and how terrorist groups, cults, all of these organizations give you a sense of belonging for people who've never experienced it before. But the most radical version of that, right? And I feel like there is, you know, some organizations or some people who prey on loneliness, and some people who feel they don't, you know, they don't have that community, they don't have that sense of belonging, and they get roped into something. We talk about like MLMs a lot on this show, like that's a perfect example of this too. You just like are then a part of this community that feels either toxic at best or like very, very unsafe, violent at

the worst version. So I don't know what my question is, but like, I don't know, talk to me and talk to me about that. It's like, okay, if I am so lonely, how easy is it for me to the QAnon conspiracies? How easy is that for me to find? How easy is it for me to get kind of radicalized in that attempt to find community and belonging? Yeah, I think this is such a great point. There's a lot here. Yeah. this is such a great point. Oh, there's a lot here. Yeah, I see it as, you know, community, belonging to a community, feeling like you're part of a group, that there's a shared purpose or shared identity. That's a really wonderful thing. And we know that that improves our health. However,

like you're saying, it can cross a line into dangerous territory, whether it's a cult, whether it's a terrorist group. And that's kind of where community goes wrong. And the thing I worry about now today, especially here in the US, is that polarization is a great example of this, where we are so divided across political beliefs that it creates a lot of hatred, a lot of just, it creates a very difficult situation

for us to move forward in collaboration collectively to empathize across lines and so on. And so I think there's so much more here and it was outside the scope of what I wrote about in the book, but I think it's one of the most important questions for us to answer in the coming years. How do we reunite and how do we connect across these barriers that we're currently facing? Well, and you mentioned, I think in your book and your work that, you know, of course, disconnection is an issue that, you know, lack of connection takes its toll. But there's

also the flip side, which is either, okay, I have too much connection, it's overwhelming, and I don't have time for myself, or there's, it's just unfulfilling connection. I'm with people, but I don't actually get much out of this relationship, or I don't feel actually fulfilled. Can you talk more about that? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's wonderful that as a society we're focusing on loneliness as a public health issue, but there are so many other ways in which we're not socially healthy on a day-to-day basis. Whether that's feeling overwhelmed by social media and feeling like we're interacting all the time, even though it's not quality interaction, right? One of the

principles that I write about in the book is quality over quantity. So it's not just about socializing all the time or having a ton of friends. It's about socializing in ways that are actually meaningful, having deeper conversations. It's about having really close, supportive, mutual relationships that go deeper, right? And so absolutely, we can feel overwhelmed by social media. And that's one sign of not being socially healthy in a different way that loneliness doesn't capture. And that's why we really need to broaden the way that we're talking about our social lives right now.

Loneliness is one aspect, but it's also about balancing. It's about going for quality over quantity. It's about nurturing your one-on-one friendships and relationships with family and so on. But it's also about being part of groups that are healthy, right? Communities that are good for us and so on. So yeah, this is a really important piece that being socially healthy isn't just the absence of loneliness. It's also the presence of meaningful connection. And it's also not feeling drained by our social obligations.

Our researcher Sarah found this, it's really smart when she brought up this idea to us of isolation used as punishment. When you think about prisons, incarceration, is this something you've looked into? Is this something you've studied? Because like, again, you've just proved of how big of an impact this has. And I'm thinking about, I mean, solitary confinement, right, is an actual thing. It's this idea of like, basically putting somebody in a, you know, locked room with nothing to entertain them, and nobody around to interact with. that's punishment like that feels so beyond cruel. Yeah.

Yeah. The first time I ever did virtual reality was a simulation of solitary confinement. Oh, God. It was so eye opening. I can't remember the name of the group, but it was in a cell. So you know, I put on the headsets and it was like being in a solitary confinement cell, but they had recorded audio from an actual prison in the solitary confinement wing. And so you had the audio of people down in the

hallways. And it was so upsetting that when I came out of the experience and took the VR headset off, I started crying. Like it literally brought brought tears to my eyes. Oh, I'm crying right now. It's just you talking about it. Yeah, I'm just like that sounds I mean, awful is not a strong enough word. That's horrific. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, it speaks volumes that our version of the most severe punishments aside from the death penalty is extreme isolation, right? That tells us what we need to know. Right. Right. Just what you said, right, is that like, if there's anything to prove your

point that isolation is 100% necessary, it's the fact that yeah, the biggest punishment other than killing somebody or other than the death penalty is we're going to put you on your own and give you no sort of outside stimuli and no sort of entertainment. And yeah, you're not even typically seeing the people who are giving you food if you're getting food at all. Like, yeah, there's no connection. And of course you go crazy. Of course that happens. Of course, of course, because all you got is your own brain. Yeah. There's also interesting research. So for example, neuroscientists have hooked people

up to their scanners when after they've been isolated for long periods, and they've compared that to people who didn't eat for long periods. So they're comparing isolation to hunger in this instance, and the same brain regions are activated in both those cases. So what that shows us is that connection and isolation, loneliness, these are cues in our brain, right? We need to connect just like we need to eat healthy foods. It's literally as vital. When we are alone for too long, it's signaling in our brain just like we're starving. Oh my gosh, you need connection just like you need food and water. It's vital. Yeah. We can cut this if you don't actually watch it. Do you watch Survivor? Oh my gosh. Are we like soul friends? Yes.

Yes. Okay. I was like, there's no way you study social health and you don't watch Survivor. I'm sorry, Kristin, I just blew off the mic, but I was like, there's no fucking way. Did you watch last night? I didn't watch last night yet. Have you seen it yet? Okay. So I'm not going to spoil it. Okay, but this is the worst season. Okay, anybody who's not a Survivor fan, you can skip it. I don't like the season. It's not good. I agree. It's starting to get better. I have been bored for most of the season.

Okay, quick thing, quick aside and then we can talk about Survivor. In 2020, I was with my best friend Christine. We go on a trip, it was the best friends every year and we called a friend moon and we were on our moon. And I had done an interview where somebody asked me, What do you think the best game ever invented was? And it was I said survivor, and I rightfully said survivor. And she was reading this interview that I had done. And she's like, What the fuck are you talking about? This is reality TV show. And I was like, No, you do not understand. And I'm going to tell everybody what I told her, which I'm like, it is the ultimate like sociology experiment, which is like taking different people from different walks of life and different ages, putting them all together.

They have to survive, I don't know, pun intended, but they have to survive while they also haven't eaten and they haven't slept very well. And they're lying to each other. And also the game has evolved so much in the past 25 now years of it being played where in the early days it was just like, who deserved the money most? And now it's just like, you don't like, yeah, you backstab people, it happens. What is and what is not okay. Somebody has been outed as like trans in one of the seasons and like people decided, nope, that wasn't okay, which of course, and so I love it because I think it's such a, and again, it's changed and it's evolved if you take one person out or one person wins a challenge and the other person did like everything about a season could change. So basically I got her into it. She like is

now a devotee, watched her and like went back and watched a bunch of the seasons. But I don't know, I feel like we're talking social scientist who reads research all the time, but no, you're you're a multifaceted, multi nuanced person. Great. Honestly, love is blind. There's anything like that. Oh, yeah. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, but Oh, you're you're a multifaceted, multi nuanced person. Great. Honestly, love is blind. There's anything like that. Oh, yeah. There's a great show called Alone, which I think you would like it's Oh, yes, I heard about it. My parents got really into a lot. Yeah. So they send a person off to some remote area and they actually just have to literally survive by himself. I'm a naked and afraid person. Like if that's on, I'll wash it. Like that feels also again, we're like talking about the sociology of like, you have to get past

the vulnerability of nakedness in order to survive with a complete stranger. No, I just think like, yeah, any of these are great examples of like one, the importance of human connection, but two, the like, yeah, the sociology, the strategy of like, how do you connect with somebody? When does somebody like turn you off in terms of connect? Like, we've all seen Debbie on Survivor, who was just like, so difficult to be around. And just like, but it's just so interesting to me. And that's why I love that show. So interesting. Okay, on the Alone show, which for people who haven't watched this, it's they literally just dropped some someone off in the middle of nowhere, and they have to survive. What's so fascinating about that to me

is that a lot of them quit, not because they're hungry, not because they can't build shelter, or there's bears, or they're worried they're gonna die. It's loneliness. They miss their family. They miss their friends and they're like, what am I doing this for, the money? That's not important.

What's important is being with my kids. It's being with my partner. It's spending time with the people I love. And so a lot of the times people end up leaving because they're like, no, I'm craving connection. That's more important than money. Yeah. And you hear that a lot with Survivor when somebody's just, you know, at their breaking point and they're like, I'm so tired and I miss my family, but I'm out here for them. Like that's what they say, right? Like I'm trying to win this game. Some people like leave, you know, newborn children or they're like, wife is

pregnant at home. And they're like, no, I'm doing this for my family, which is a whole other conversation about, I actually wanted to do an episode about this, about how we have told Americans that like, you have to go on a game show and like risk your life in order to have like actual, like cost of living money. But that's a whole other conversation for another time. No, but I just think it's so fascinating. I think Survivor is so fascinating. It sounds like I need to watch Alone. Yeah, this is all it's so fascinating to me. I totally agree. I am obsessed with all of these shows because I think it's literally psychology and all of it happening on screen in real time. It's such a fascinating experiment.

Yeah. And what treatment people will or won't accept and yeah, what is like in the game and I put that in quotes versus like what is outside of the game. Like, yeah, one of the early seasons, somebody swore on their mom, but their mom was dead. And like, when people found that out, they were so mad. But like now, 20 years later, like, everybody doesn't believe anything. And so it's just like, it's so interesting. Yeah, how the game has evolved, what's acceptable, what's not. Yeah. No, I love it. Again, not what I thought we'd talk about, but I love this. No, it makes it really happen.

Okay. I read an article and by me saying I read an article, I saw a TikTok about micro connections about these like, I go to a grocery store and the Trader Joe's cashier and I flirt because of course everybody flirts with you at Trader Joe's. I walk past somebody on the street and they say, hi, I see a dog and I pet the dog at the dog park. Like I think because a lot of us work remote and because, you know, Amazon can deliver anything to our front door, we're missing a lot of these like micro connections. So can we maybe talk about, I mean, I kind of gave examples, but like what they are and

how we can maybe incorporate more of those in our lives as an easier way to like start building connections. For sure. Yes, this is really important. So the research definitely shows. So far I've talked about kind of the importance of those deep relationships that we have with our close friends and family, and those are vital and very life-giving. But to your point, there's also value from those micro connections, the small doses of interaction that we get when we're saying hi to a barista or getting on the bus and being friendly with the driver or chit chatting with a neighbor over the fence or things like that. All of those interactions also matter.

They make us feel connected to the community around us. They anchor us in letting us know that we're just not out, you know, on the moon by ourselves living on an island, right? It's about feeling connected to the community and to humanity. So those micro-moments matter. And there's interesting studies, like for example, there was one experiment I think last year

where they sent people into a coffee shop to order a coffee. And some people just ordered their coffee like normal, carried on with their day. Other people literally just added a minute to that interaction by asking the barista how they were doing and, you know, smiling and just being present in that interaction. And those people who did that felt so much better throughout the day, right? Like that just micro moment of connection with someone you might not even know, you don't know anything about them, but just having that positive exchange feels good. So this was something I experimented

with firsthand when I was in my final semester of as an undergraduate. I decided to do one act of kindness every day for almost four months. And my experiment was like, what happens if you just prioritize those micro-moments of connection every day, right? Writing thank you cards to people in my life, helping someone carry their stroller upstairs, little things like that, as well as more meaningful things, right, helping out a friend in need and so on.

But for four months, like literally I couldn't go to bed at night unless I had connected meaningfully or in a small way with some other human. And the results of doing that every single day and being intentional about it and going out with this, these glasses as if I was just paying attention to all the people around me rather than caught up in my own to do list. And you know, at that time I was in school, so the homework I had to do and what was, what was I going to get for a job after I graduated and all those things. Or looking at your phone. Or looking at my phone.

That's the big one for I think most people is it's just like, you miss so many potential social interactions, even just like a smile exchange because you're on your phone. And that's that. I mean, I'm speaking for myself here too. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that was the most shocking thing was there were all these opportunities for connection around me and I just hadn't been paying attention, right? I was too caught up in my own thoughts and my own problems and my phone to actually be paying attention to them. And so when I turned that focus outward

and started going out of my way to have those micro moments of connection, it totally changed my life. I made new friends, I felt more connected to my community, I deepened the relationships with my loved ones. But also it was so energizing that it gave me motivation to cook healthier foods and to be more efficient when I was studying or writing an essay

or whatever I was doing. So it had all these transformative effects across my life. I mean, it's one of the happiest times in my life because I was just paying attention to other people and finding ways to connect with them. So what's it like to buy your first cryptocurrency on Kraken? Well, let's say I'm at a food truck I've never tried before. Am I going to go all in on the loaded taco? No, sir. I'm keeping it simple. Starting small. That's trading on Kraken. Pick from over 190 assets and start with the 10 bucks in your pocket. Easy. Go to kraken.com

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BMO ETFs presents Views from the Desk, a show all about markets and investing with ETFs. New episodes every Thursday morning. It's really funny you say that because I ordered Chipotle last night. I was going to go pick it up. The person putting the order together, he was this young kid, probably like 19. And there were a lot of people waiting. I could tell some people were getting impatient. And I, you know, was on my phone for a little bit. And then I was like, I don't need to be on my phone. And I put my phone away and I was just watching him. And he was probably slower than most people would have liked, but he took so much care in making a burrito, making a quesadilla, putting everything together. And I, yeah, waited for my food for a while. And

then, you know, called my name and I looked him in the eye and I went, thank you so much for all the care you put into your work. And like, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but like, it made me feel so good. I've just like, okay, that was lovely. I will probably never see this person again. I'll probably never talk to them again. But like I wanted them to know in that moment that like their work was valued, their work was important. And that if anybody else gave them shit, like, Nope, they, you were putting care and you know, you're taking your time intentionally with your work. And

like, I think that's yeah, for me, I just felt yeah, there was a connection there that didn't take a lot of effort that wasn't like, hey, let's go get coffee. It was just like, okay, I have this real moment of connection with another human being. Exactly. The other thing is you never know when something you say that's as simple as that is gonna change someone's life. I mean, that could mean way more to that person than you realize. Totally.

I met my partner at a bar. Like crazy. We were sitting next to each other, we met at a bar and now we've been together for two years. Yeah, but also to your point of like, if somebody's having a really bad day, and somebody says something nice to me, that changes my entire day, potentially my entire life. First of all, I love that you said that you met your partner at a bar. I met my now husband in the staircase of our apartment building in San Francisco. He struck up conversation. And we talked for like a minute. And then the next day he put

a bottle of wine and outside my door and seven years later, we're still together. So yes, you never know literally strike up conversations. That is the cute I'm literally crying. I'm about to start my period on the mass. No, that is so cute. That is like the ultimate me cute if I've ever heard what and that that what a cool opportunity to because he could have just been like okay she's cute whatever like but actually like okay bottle of wine gesture let's get things moving I love that okay sorry keep going that's just lovely love it too I know I love him for doing that but I love what you're saying because there's okay so there was a study done last year that looked at how much people appreciate just receiving a random text saying something as simple as I'm thinking of you, right?

And people consistently and significantly underestimate how much the recipient is going to appreciate that. Oh, God, yeah. recipient is going to appreciate that. Like literally. So one of the hacks that I do is when a friend or colleague or someone comes to mind and just like pops into my head for whatever reason, I send them a text or an email literally could be one sentence being like, Hey, thinking of you, you and I are the same person. You are the same person. You know what? Yeah. Yeah. I do that. Because it matters. And when someone does that to me, I love it. I'm like, thank you so much. It doesn't have to turn into an hour long conversation. Oh, I think sometimes we feel like, you know, being socially it's here.

I'll draw a parallel. When we think about our physical health, right, it can be overwhelming. At first, we're like, oh, my gosh, I have to walk 10,000 steps a day. I have to get nine hours of sleep at night. Like this isn't attainable. I have to totally transform my life if I wanna be physically healthy. No, in fact, even just getting up and stretching and walking around your house or around the block

has measurable effects on your health, right? It doesn't have to be these major transformations in your life to reap the benefits. And it's the same with connections, sending a simple text message. If you don't know where to start and feel overwhelmed by it, it can be as simple as that. Just letting someone know that you're thinking of them. Yep.

I will also say too, cause you and I are the same person, this is what I do. I will often think of somebody who I haven't talked to in years. And what my brain does is my brain goes, well, you haven't talked in a while and maybe they don't want to talk to you. And I fight that every time. So I can hear you dear listener, I can hear your brain going, Yeah, but I'm not going to do that. Be prepared to be cringy, be prepared to not get a response back. That's fine. But that mem like this literally happened with a friend the other day, I was really close with her when I was at my previous job and nothing happened. We just kind of lost touch. We weren't, I mean, speaking of that, we weren't physically seeing each other.

So it was just harder to harder to be friends. But I thought of her for, you know, hadn't talked to her in probably 18 months, maybe longer. And I could actually see, you know, the last time we texted and I just said, Hey, thinking of you, I really hope you're doing well. And I think we might go get coffee. And so it's just like, you know, but she could have also not responded. And that's okay. I didn't have any like expectations of what that was going to be. I also maybe this is weird. Anytime I dream about somebody, that's also when I left them though. And I tried to not be like I dreamt about you last night because that's weird. It's I phrase it, you showed up in my dream last night. Because

that's a little less intense. But yeah, especially if I haven't talked to somebody in a while and they like show up in my dream, I'm just like, Hey, saw you last night, you didn't know it, but you're in my dream. Hope you're doing well. Or like birthdays of like random people I haven't talked to in a while, but I'm like, Oh, I remember it's their birthday. So yeah, I just love that. And I know that like, you do have to fight the like, is okay, we haven't talked, is this going to be awkward? Is this going to lead to something else? And it doesn't have to, if you don't want it to, it can just be like, I'm thinking about you, I hope you're doing well. Absolutely. Exactly.

And you mentioned the birthdays thing, and this is actually kind of a pet peeve of mine, because it used to be that everyone was on Facebook, you know, like 10 years ago, and so we all got reminders. Right. But nowadays, at least in my circles, people aren't on Facebook anymore. And so no one knows each other their birthdays. Yep, yep, yep. Right, but nowadays, at least in my circles, people aren't on Facebook anymore. No, you gotta remember. And so no one knows each other's birthdays.

So this is such an easy way to be a better friend. Yep. Like literally just write everyone's birthdays. I write it in my calendar now. Yes, exactly. Put it on your calendar, make it recurring every year, and then you're gonna see it that day. It's such an easy way to be a better friend. Wish them happy birthday.

If you're an amazing friend, send them a card or gift, but it doesn't even have to be that. Just remembering is so meaningful. Let's talk about assessing our social health. How can we make manageable adjustments? There's like these five guiding principles. Talk to us about those. Okay, yes.

So if you want to understand and kind of evaluate your social health, I walk through this three-step process in chapter one of the book. And the first step is around just taking stock of where your social health comes from. So think about who are the people and the groups that you belong to

that are actually your sources of connection on a day-to-day basis. It sounds obvious, but we're often not really intentional about this. We just take our relationships for granted or don't put that much thought into our social circles. There's a worksheet in the book where you can go through this systematically. The first is just thinking about who are those one-on-one relationships, and then the broader communities where you are connecting on a regular basis. The second step is around assessing the strength of those relationships and communities. So

are they mutual and are they meaningful, right? So in a given friendship or in a given community that you're part of, does it feel like there's a give and take and a reciprocity and like, also like it's really meaningful, right? So does it go beyond that surface level into something deeper where you actually feel connected in a way that's really fulfilling to you? Like you have people who you can confide in

and share experiences with on a deeper level. And then the third step is around identifying the strategy that you need going forward to optimize your social health. And these fall into four different strategies. And the analogy I like to use is with strengthening our physical muscles, right? We can stretch, we can rest our muscles in certain days, we can tone, we can flex them, right? And so thinking about how do we exercise our social muscles? So the first strategy is around stretching your social muscles.

This is if you want more connection, if you take stock of your relationships and communities and realize that you don't have as many friends as you want, or you are totally lacking a group that shares something in common with you, or you just feel like you're wanting more, right? Like a lot of people do feel isolated or lonely. So if you're thinking this through and realizing maybe there's only one or two people who you can really reach out to, then your strategy in that case is to stretch your social muscles. The second strategy is to rest. So we talked earlier about how sometimes we feel

overwhelmed by social obligations or by social media or things like this, or maybe we just have enough friends and relationships, we're good, right? We're already struggling to keep on top of the connections that we already have. In that case, it's about resting your social muscles. And this is important too, just like when we're exercising our physical muscles,

we need days in between workouts, right? We can't just lift weights 24 seven, you need to rest your muscles in order for them to get stronger. So that's the second strategy. The third is to tone your social muscles. This is around deepening your relationship. So it might be that you kind of take stock and say,

hey, I've got these really great friends. I get along well with my co-workers. You know, I talk to my neighbors now and then, but I want to go deeper, right? Maybe we're staying at kind of that surface level and I really want to connect in a more meaningful way. So that's about toning your social muscles. And then the last final strategy is to flex. So, right, just like we flex our physical muscles to show off. I've been doing CrossFit and Pilates, thank you very much, so I will flex for you. This is about sustaining your relationships and communities in the long term, right?

So making sure that, you know, if you've got the right number of connections and you've got the right depth that's meaningful to you, now it's about sustaining that in the long term and making sure that those connections stay a priority for you overall. I love that and the very easy metaphor to track with physical health, like you said with rest of like, yeah, you can't be out here, bench pressing every single day, because it just

won't work. It won't work. You'll learn out, you'll get injured. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. My mentor, who's like my second mom and I, we call them jammy nights, which is just like we're very extroverted people typically. But also I've realized like I'm way more introverted than I gave myself credit for. And like, I need jammy nights. I need to sit and do nothing and see nobody. Or at least maybe just see my partner, but like no sort of social commitment and just love that be by myself. I need that too.

Probably more than you do because I'm an introvert. But yeah, I think that's one of the myths people don't realize is that being socially healthy doesn't mean you're connecting all the time. It also means that you connect with yourself and you have those jammy nights where you're just, you know, letting giving yourself time and space to process everything and recharge your batteries. So that's really important. As we're wrapping up, can you share one of the examples in the book on how communities have invested in social health? Yes, this is a great question. Which one shall I choose? So there's two examples that I'll

share quickly, because I think they offer different perspectives. So one is in Paris, where I spent two days with this group called the Super Neighbors. This is a bunch of people who banded together and said, we are going to make our district, our neighborhood within Paris the most connected place you can imagine. We are going to set up a table along the street where a thousand people can meet for a meal and get to know each other and break the ice.

We are going to create WhatsApp groups for people to support each other and hang out around common interests. We're gonna set a goal of saying hello or bonjour 50 times every day when we leave the house. They just rallied around and it's led by this wonderful person named Patrick. And so I spent two days with this group in Paris getting to know them all and understanding their approach to community building.

And it's one of the most inspiring examples I've seen. But it's an example of just everyday people banding together saying, I'm going to make my community more connective and I'm going to start changing the social norms. I'm going to smile and wave to my neighbors and start making that something that we all do and take initiative to plan events to create opportunities for those deeper connections. So that's one example. Another one in contrast is I also went while researching for the book to Barcelona and met with the city council there because they decided that loneliness is a problem in their city that they want to eradicate. So they are at the government level saying, okay, let's fund different initiatives to change this. Let's

transform the third spaces so that they're even more vibrant and more conducive to people connecting. Although if you've been to Barcelona, it's pretty great already, but they're saying, let's make it even better. And they're investing through policy and through programming in going from kind of the top down.

So you have those two examples of, on one hand, you have a government saying, this is a priority in our city, and we're going to create the conditions for our citizens to be more meaningfully connected. And then you have that other example in Paris of where everyday people who, you know, are just doing this in their spare time

because they care about it, are saying, let's get together and improve the quality of our life for everyone here. Yeah. I saw a video the other day that was this new like school concept they're piloting of seniors paired with like elementary school kids. I love this. And I was just like, that's so smart. It's so smart.

There's one near you, I think. Is there really in Seattle? Yeah, there's one where they have a preschool housed within a retirement home. And so there's opportunities for the little kids to interact with the older adults. And of course the value is bi-directional, right? The young people benefit from it,

the older people benefit from it. So it's really beautiful. I'm Googling it. Yeah. Intergenerational learning. Oh, it's literally in Seattle. It's literally Seattle. Intergenerational Learning Center. Yeah, it's in West Seattle. Five days a week, the children residents come together in a variety of planned activities such as music, dancing, art, lunch, storytelling, or just visiting. Oh, I want to learn more about this. I didn't know it was in my own city. This is just

lovely. Yeah. The Atlantic in 2016, a preschool inside a nursing home. Isn't that beautiful? I love that. But that should be the norm. Why not? It's a beautiful example of two groups who can benefit from more meaningful connection coming together across ages. I love it. I want that for my future kids. That's so lovely. Your Paris example too. That's how I know I'm about to start my periods. I'm like, that sounds so nice. A WhatsApp group, a thousand people staying. Bonjour. That sounds lovely. This was such a lovely, speaking of lovely, a lovely conversation. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your love of Dune and Survivor as well. Thank you for that. Thank you for validating me. Where can people find your book? Where can people find out

more about you? Yeah. So if you go to casleykillem.com, that's K-A-S-L-E-Y, killem, K-I-L-L-A-M.com. It links to my book. It links to all kinds of other good resources. I have a newsletter that I share frequently all about social health and it's packed with lots of good tips and innovation in the space and research insights and things like that. I'm also at Casley Killam on social media. I literally have opened up a tab and I'm signing up for your newsletter right now. So thank you. Thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. Thank you. This was so much fun. Thank you so much to Casley for joining us.

Make sure to check out her book, The Art and Science of Connection, Why Social Health is the Missing Key to Living Longer, Healthier and Happier, which is out now. Thank you so much as always, Financial Feminist for joining us. We hope you have a kick ass week. I won't talk to you later.

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