Financial Feminist - 17. The Dark Truth of Diet Culture with Victoria Garrick

Episode Date: May 10, 2022

The toxic AF billion-dollar diet industry perpetuates the message that our bodies are never “enough” (skinny enough, strong enough, curvy enough, whatever enough) using predatory tactics to keep us opening our wallets for the newest “craze” or “fix.” Today’s guest is here to call bullsh*t. Tori is joined by former Division I volleyball player, TED Talk speaker, and mental health advocate Victoria Garrick. In this vulnerable episode, Tori and Victoria share their stories of growing up surrounded by diet culture, how companies use shame to make us actively hate our bodies, and what we can do to fight back. Victoria is the host of RealPod, and the Founder & CEO of the mental health non-profit, The Hidden Opponent, which supports college athletes in their mental health journeys. This episode deals with topics like disordered eating and body image. We have linked resources in our show notes to support you if you are seeking help. Get support: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/help-support/contact-helpline Pre-Order “Financial Feminist: Overcome the Patriarchy’s Bullsh*t to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love”: https://bit.ly/3PpHvlC Our HYSA recommendation [affiliate]: http://sofi.com/herfirst100k Episode show notes: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/  Follow us on YouTube for behind the scenes and extras: https://www.youtube.com/c/HerFirst100K/featured Follow Victoria on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victoriagarrick/ Listen to RealPod: https://dearmedia.com/shows/real-pod/  Follow Financial Feminist on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/financialfeministpodcast/  Follow Her First $100K on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/herfirst100k/ Looking for more actionable money advice? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://treasury.app/herfirst100k/money-journey-quiz  Leave Financial Feminist a voicemail: https://www.speakpipe.com/financialfeminist Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, team. Welcome back to Financial Feminist. I hope you've been liking this new format of weekly episodes, really like six episodes a month. So it's like weekly episode plus a bonus episode every other week. And our last two guests, I was about to say brought the heat, but that sounds so bro-y, but I'm gonna say it anyway. They brought the heat. I'm so excited to welcome Victoria Garrick onto the show. She is a friend of mine. We have become friends now over the internet. And she has been one of the people who I have called needing a pep talk. And one of the people I've received a call from needing a pep talk. And I love this episode for many, many reasons. But I didn't expect to talk about my own struggles with my body, my own struggles with my self-image and with my confidence. And yeah, I cry on this episode,

which is not a shocker. I think I cry on every other fucking episode, but I think it's a really powerful conversation, not just of course about the financial impacts of the diet industry, but the emotional and psychological impacts as well. Victoria Garrick is a TED Talk speaker, mental health advocate, podcast host, and former Division One athlete who has amassed 1.5 million followers across social media, where she's known for her unfiltered campaign, Hashtag Real Post. Victoria first began sharing her story on how she battled and overcame depression and anxiety as a student athlete in her 2017 TED Talk called The Hidden Opponent, which has been viewed almost half a million times. She's been featured in the New York Times, the Players Tribune, E! News, People, Access Hollywood, and is the founder and CEO of the mental health nonprofit The Hidden Opponent,

which was recognized as a standout resource for athletes by Kobe Bryant in his novel, Geese Are never swans. She also brings her message of authenticity to life daily on our social media platforms, as well as her raw and relatable podcast, real pod, which I have been a guest on and will hopefully be a guest on again soon. She now tours the country,

speaking at universities and high schools throughout the country and hopes of destigmatizing the conversation around mental health and encouraging all people to be their unfiltered selves. Okay, a content warning at the top of this episode. The whole thing's about diet culture. So if that's not your jam, we're talking about diet culture, disordered eating, body dysmorphia. So if this is a conversation you'd rather sit out on, I welcome you to step away from this discussion if you need to at any point. It's a great conversation, but your mental health matters and we fully support you. If you or someone you know is struggling with disordered

eating, there is help. Visit nationaleatingdisorders.org for resources to help. And we've also linked several organizations and resources in the show notes. Now, without further ado, here's our conversation on the billion-dollar diet industry with Victoria Garrick. I had a bunch of events this past weekend, so I lost my voice. Great. And now you're on my podcast. I know, but it's okay. It sounds sexy raspy. Yeah, it does. You're very Scarlett Johansson. Did you know that supposedly, have you seen her? Because i've never actually seen it the joaquin phoenix is that the one he's in love with the robot yeah no i didn't see that is that joaquin phoenix they really did him up in that movie he won or was nominated he was definitely

nominated for an oscar i don't know if he won but the funny thing about that as i spill coffee all over the table is that uh apparently somebody was like he somebody played the voice of her and they were like no it's not good enough and then brought in scarlett johansson wow i didn't even know she played the voice yeah so she was like the voice of the you know the siri equivalent honestly i would fall in love with uh scarlett johansson's voice yeah i i would as well i don't i don't blame him i haven't seen that movie i should see that movie before i start bringing in like fun facts about it um hi hi i'm so excited you're here me too thanks for having me i'll throw you a softball a pun intended because i'm about to ask you a question about athletics okay so was

what was it about athletics about volleyball that was so compelling for you? And were you someone who was just like naturally gifted and fell into it and then kept going because you felt like you had to, or was it like a true passion that you really loved? Well, it's like, I'm thinking because here, I want to say I was naturally very athletic in eighth grade. I was like athlete of the year. But this is like eighth grade. 13-year-old Victoria. Yes.

Like metal. She loved playing all the sports. So I was athletic. I loved being competitive. I loved sports. And so when it came to volleyball, I actually fell into that sport naturally in the sense that I was playing all these sports in middle school. And then when it was time, you know, that eighth grade year, there was a friend's mom on my high

school volleyball team, or sorry, there was a friend's mom on my middle school volleyball team that said, your daughter's really good to my mom. She should join my daughter's club team. So I started playing club volleyball. And then I just became infatuated with how do I become better at this sport? How do I make the ones team next year? And before I knew it, that was the only sport that I was playing. And I feel like the timing was perfect because come high school, at least for me, if you're wanting to play the division one level, you do kind of have to zone in.

I know people who've played double sports, you totally can do it, but it's risky, right? If I were to be playing high school soccer and I tore my ACL, that jeopardizes my possible playing volleyball in college. So I only played volleyball in high school and I loved it. I think looking back now on all the sports, it's definitely one I think I would still go back and choose, but I definitely think I'm way more physical. I could have seen myself in like a soccer or like a lacrosse, you know, like buddying up next to people and using physicality, whereas this net separates us in volleyball and you don't touch anyone. Right.

So I almost felt like... You're only touching somebody if something's severely wrong. Right. You're really supposed to dance around each other on the court. Right. So I, you know, I always wonder what would have happened if I could have been a little bit more physical in my athletic days. Yeah.

A lot of people are shocked to find that I played softball for like 12 years, 11 years. I love that. But the thing and then I also played basketball for three years and basketball. I was not good at offense, but I will wrestle you to the goddamn ground. Like I an aggressive defender. Oh, literally like seventh grade. At one point, the referee had to break me and a girl up because we were like Wrestling for a jump ball. I was like, I was like i'm not i'm not letting go with this. I need footage of this

My dad coached i'm sure they have footage somewhere. Um So your family was very successful in sports Yes, my older brother was a professional golfer. He just retired but he did I know this? No, I don't think you knew that, but... We're a big golf family. Really? We've done laps. Oh gosh, yes. My brother played at UCLA and then he was played professionally for five years on like mini tours. And what is it now? The Corn Fairy. It was web.com, Corn Fairy. And yeah, he just retired, which is a whole story in itself, you know, sports. But yeah,

he was always very successful, big competitor. And I think that rubbed off a lot on me. Did you feel like there was pressure then of like, brother good at sports, me have to be good at sports too? You know, I didn't take it as personally as us competing with each other. I think being different genders and being three years apart, there was separation. I will say though, I do remember getting praise for achievements and loving that praise. And it wasn't like my parents weren't loving towards me if I wasn't successful, but it felt good to achieve and to have something put on the refrigerator and to be called out at the family dinner table and to be bragged about. I also grew up in a neighborhood that everyone was just white

picket fences. Everyone had to pretend they had this perfect life. And I think I also felt, okay, I need to be perfect. Damn. So as you're progressing with athletics, with volleyball specifically, when was the first time you remember looking at your body in a critical way and thinking something about this needs to change? Oh, well, if that's the question, I got to rewind it to when I was 12. Sure. before all of this because honestly my body image issues and my awareness of the size of my body the shape of my body the number on the scale i literally remember being 12 having gone to a summer camp coming home and naturally had lost weight just because when you go to a summer camp you have meal times you don't have your normal snack whatever so i lost you're also running around everywhere yeah totally and i and i wasn't aware of this however when i got back i received a compliment

quote unquote you know you look so lean and the the the just fucks with you immediately yeah well and i also go what is lean i've never heard that word and the person says oh it means thin it means thin and you look good and i thought oh okay so. So I'm putting now my equation together, right? If we're talking finances, the math, what's the math here? Losing weight equals looking lean equals compliments equals good. Pat on back. Equals good self-worth. Yes. So it's almost like from 12 on, I had understood what it meant to be an appealing woman who received compliments. And I was incredibly aware of that throughout the rest of middle school, especially high school, and then really hit rock bottom in college. So was that the point you started consuming content around diet culture, like around 12, 13?

consuming content around diet culture like around 12 13 yes however it was different right i mean i remember when the victoria's secret company had a victoria's secret app and all the catalog first right yes because you and i are about the same age i think you're a year or 24 oh god 27 i was like oh she's 26 it's fine okay uh yes so there was i feel like i used to be like all the time the youngest person in the room and now i'm less likely to be the youngest person in the room and i do the shit that people used to do to me where they're like oh my god i'm so old and i hate that right but now i find myself doing it oh literally we despise the jokes our parents and people used to make and now i know i see my what is it the state farm commercials where it's like you're turning into your dad oh my gosh those are hilarious no i'll see my baby cousin like, I remember when you were this big.

I hate myself for saying that. You're like, I'm the aunt who sees you four times a year. Honestly. So there was no Instagram. There was no TikTok. There wasn't a social media account for Candace Swanepoel or Adriana Lima. However, I could Google them. I could Google their waist measurements.

I could pull up. Did you? Yeah. Oh, a thousand percent. I had a notes page on my phone of all the measurements wait say that for me again we know break that down so you would google supermodels yes or yes yes yes public figures and their waist measurements and write them in your so what was the was the goal i'm writing this down in order for me to compare myself in order for it to be like a measurement of quote unquote success? Was that the idea?

Definitely. It was seeing these women who I thought were stunning and whose society had deemed like quote unquote made it. I mean, when I was growing up, it felt like if you were a Victoria's Secret model, if you walked that fashion show, you were one of the most beautiful women in the world. And so, of course, I idolized them. I aspired to be like them. You look at the old campaigns. I mean, everything is one specific way. It's very clear what the beauty standard was.

I also want to acknowledge the privilege I have of being closer to that standard than most people. also want to acknowledge the privilege I have of being closer to that standard than most people. I still, though, felt this pressure to make sure every single thing was exact. And so, yes, I would pull up my Victoria's Secret app at 13, 14 years old. I would record on my phone what their measurements were. And then I would measure myself. And you know, try to have that specific number, which of course I remember. I won't say it because I don't want to like bring that into people's thoughts

and have them worrying about it. But I still remember what those numbers were and how I wasn't there. That breaks my heart. Yeah, it does. It's wild for me to sit here though and reflect it

because I'm in such a different place. But let's stay in the trenches, Tori, because we got a long episode. We do. Okay. So role models for this like diet culture and media, you said Victoria's Secret models. Who else are you looking at? You know, I think you're looking at celebrities. You're looking at Hannah Montana. You're looking at Selena Gomez. You're looking at, I mean, they're all thin. They're all beautiful. You're looking at Selena Gomez. You're looking at, I mean, they're all thin. They're all beautiful. They're all the pop icons. I mean, there's Britney Spears. There's Ashley Tisdale. I mean, Vanessa Hudgens. It wasn't even just people exemplifying this beauty standard. It was the active call-outs and the way that society communicated what you should not be. And if a celebrity had gained weight like a Jessica Simpson or like the character in Wizards of Waverly Place, Harper, who was supposed to be, quote unquote, this ugly duckling.

And it's like you look at these photos now thinking this is a totally normal woman. She looks complete. And yeah, whatever normal woman. She looks complete. Yeah. Whatever normal means. Right. And yet at that time, it was so obvious to us that if you fell outside the lines of this beauty standard, these celebrities are on the cover of Us Weekly, OK Magazine, all the tabloids, you know, about their weight gain or so-and-so is fat now or they are. Or they lost 60 pounds after they had a child. Here's how they did it in two weeks.

Definitely. And all of the messaging is about weight. And you see it mainly tied to women. And so, you know, not only do I have this little equation I figure out in this one interaction as a 12-year-old in my life, but I'm growing up realizing how we look is essentially the most important part of us and the most important thing. And then I in turn became

obsessed with that being exactly what I thought it was quote-unquote supposed to be. Yeah. Well, and that weight equals your self-worth. Yes. This random number on the scale is your measurement, your yardstick for what is good, right? Or what is normal. Totally. So I think about like Mary Kane's story with like the Nike Oregon project, we'll link it and how it seems like there's these high level training programs completely ignoring that bodies need nutrition, like bodies need fuel. Are things getting better now that more like athletes are coming forward in this industry in particular? Well, the Mary Cain story is unique because she was a track athlete and the situation that happened with her, I honestly feel like from the experiences I've had in Division I athletics and then also with the universities I speak to across the divisions, I would say the issue is more the way that we learn

about nutrition and how to fuel our bodies can be and often is very versed in diet culture. I mean- Tell me more about that. The people who are nutritionists and dietitians have been essentially coached in diet culture. And I have learned this, studied this from whether it is the now anti-diet dietitians I follow who are amazing, which I can provide you with some awesome resources you can share with everyone. It'll be great. And they even talk about how they've had to kind of relearn and unlearn what they were taught in school because it was fat phobic or it was restrictive behavior that would lead to disordered behavior. And so I think the way that it is learned can cause these say, well, how many carbs are you eating to how much you're burning? Are you going to be running a marathon? Just extremes. And then while there maybe is some science on paper that you need a certain amount of carbohydrates based on the exercise you're going to be doing. Sure. And like, even then I hesitate because- That is machine robot shit. Like we're human beings.

But I also think it's wild how I could go find right now someone with all the credentials and doctor in front of their name that would tell you go keto. And then I could find someone with all the same credentials that would tell you absolutely don't go keto. Which to me is a problem. The fact that it's like, we don't even know if a dietician or nutritionist, do they have an eating disorder? Do they get into this field because of the structure that they have around food? The dietician I worked with when I was young, sweet woman, I only think good things of her. But I was 16 years old tracking my calories in calories out to lose two pounds a week in high school. And that was an appointment my mom brought me to because I requested to lose weight. And we thought we were doing the right thing by going to a professional.

Well, because this professional still exists in a system that is fat phobic and disordered and all of these things. And is looking at me in a body that would have been presumably closer to this beauty standard and saying, great, let me help you lose two pounds a week. As opposed to, you don't need to lose weight. Right, right.

So we've been tiptoeing around this. Oh, no tiptoeing. No, no, but I'm in it now. Diet industry is a billion dollar a year industry. A billion dollars with a B. And even as you're talking, right, I'm thinking about all of these things not even one billion like 60 billion multi-billions yes and i'm thinking

about even you said like one person says keto one person says this of just i remember probably around the same age as you like 12 or 13 my mom getting what was it the adkins diet she got the adkins diet book weight watchers weight watchers and what was it the southkins diet book. Weight Watchers. Weight Watchers. And what was it? The South Beach diet. I still remember what that book looks like. I remember South Beach. I tried it. I tried everything. I still remember. So this is where we talk about the financial implications of this.

So this is a marketing machine meant to shame us into purchasing diet books. Yes. Workout gear. Clothes that make us look better. Like, talk to me about the marketing implications of a multi, multi, multi-billion dollar industry. Let me tell you how it works. Let me pull back the curtain on The Wizard of Oz here. Society has created a beauty standard that is unattainable. It is from the get-go impossible. It cannot be met. Not only can it not be met from the standpoint of,

do you have the private chef? Do you have the plastic surgery? Do you have the Photoshop? But even if you get very close, like a Kim Kardashian, you still have the rest of the world saying, not good enough, not for me. So regardless of if you even get to this place, you are never going to get a unanimous vote from the world that says, yep, you're beautiful. There's always people disagreeing. Well, and that's what makes it profitable, right? If you dangle a carrot that you can never actually get, you're going to be chasing that carrot for the rest of your goddamn life. Correct. So here's this beauty standard that's unattainable. And then the diet culture industry

says, if you want to reach this thing, here, buy these things. Try this diet. Buy this workout plan. Do these things. Buy this food, and it'll help you get to this place. But it doesn't work, and it will not help you get to that place. And more often than not, it will just lead to disordered eating habits. So then you're on this cycle. And also, diet culture is sneaky. So it's not like they're saying, hey, try these things and it might not work. And if it doesn't work, it's okay because you're human and really it's not going to work. They're saying, if you don't do this, you're a failure. You don't have willpower. I mean, willpower is a term that's been coined by the diet industry to make you feel like you are inadequate

and that it's your fault that you cannot lose the weight. I mean, I was a division one athlete. If you tell me to do something, I do it. I know how to do it. And by the way, you don't need this from me. You were a goddamn amazing individual. Like literally every time you post about you playing volleyball, I just sit there. I never played volleyball. I was never good at it, but I love watching it. And every time you post your old volleyball videos, I'm just like, oh my God, like I sit there in awe. It's great. Thank you. Well, I bring it up not to toot my own horn, but to say my track record will show that if I need to get something done, I can put my head down, grind it out and be successful. So tell me why until my

19th, 20th years of life, I tried every single diet that we've listed and I never could lose the weight that I wanted. And I never could target my thigh gap in a workout and I never could get to this certain number on a scale. Is it really because I don't have willpower and I'm not hardworking? No, it's because what was asked of me was to limit the nutrients that my body actually needs. That's going to cause me to have anxious thoughts, to overthink things. Well, to meticulously track everything to the point where you're miserable. And if you take, if you take something away from someone or you tell someone they can't have something, what happens? They want it. We actually know because I'm literally, I wrote about this for the, for my book around deprivation when it comes to money. And I equate

it to a diet because we did some research. 99% of diets don't work for the reason that you just said. As soon as literally psychologically, and again, it has nothing to do with willpower. We think we're the 1% where we're like, oh no, we're strong and it's fine. And it's like, no, that doesn't mean you don't have willpower. It's literally been proven that if you psychologically tell somebody you can't have this thing, all you're going to do is want the thing. Yes. And diet culture is selling us different products, plans, meals in hopes that we believe that that's going to help us achieve this unattainable beauty standard. But guess what? It's never going to work. Oh, and the reason why this

beauty standard keeps changing is because as long as we are unhappy with ourselves, they keep making money. The day that we wake up and say, I'm good enough. I don't want to change anything about my appearance or my body. What are they selling? Who are they selling to? There's no audience. So as long as we are unhappy with ourselves, they continue to make money. Right. And it's empowering to think about it that way. And look, you know, one podcast episode, one conversation isn't going to be able to lift off the weight of someone's eating disorder or the messaging and conditioning that they've been. their whole life. However, I do think there is some hope and it is empowering. If you're not at a place yet where you can say, I love my body, maybe you can say, I recognize that the system is fucked up and it's empowering.

Conditioning me to hate me. Right. And it's kind of empowering to join this movement against diet culture because that way it almost feels less personal. Like I'm inadequate. I'm not good enough. But more so I recognize the way that the system was designed to make women hate themselves perpetually. And I don't agree with that. And that might be your first foot in the door to healing. Right.

I don't agree with that. And that might be your first foot in the door to healing. Right. I'm seeing more and more as I do research, as I look at my own relationship with my body and food and diet culture, this overlap Venn diagram of diet culture, the diet industry, and the wellness industry. And the more I look, the bigger the middle of the Venn diagram gets. Yep. Can we talk about that? Oh, yeah. I mean, diet culture has just shapeshifted and morphed itself and disguised itself to be something different. Because wellness sounds like it's a good thing.

Yeah, for sure. And it's not... My voice changed, you notice. I'm like, wellness. Yes. Yes. And I want to quote Aubrey Gordon right now, who's an incredible fat activist. Her Instagram is your fat friend. She's the co-host of Maintenance Face as well, which is a phenomenal podcast. I'm obsessed with that podcast. It's so good. The quote is, we are replacing a beauty standard with a health standard that is just as fickle, just as relentless, and just as unattainable for

so many. One more time. We are replacing a beauty standard with a health standard that is just as fickle, just as unattainable, and just as out of reach for so many. And it's also arguably worse because it's not just necessarily what you look like, right? It's now like, again, what you weigh. Shaming you if you don't eat kale and you don't go on a hike. They're starting to say, oh, hey, we don't care if you wear a larger size of clothing. We don't care anymore. Are you drinking green juice? And are you working out five times a week? We don't care what you look like, but are you healthy? Right. And we're recording this in Los Angeles where you live. I do not live here. And I don't think I can ever live here for that big reason where I walk around and it seems like everybody's hot and it feels so unobtainable. And everybody is drinking fucking green juice and they've got Botox, which there's no shame in that. But it's like there's this

constant feeling of not enough. And then it's rebranded as no, but like it's good for you. And, you know, it's you living your best life and showing up as your best body. Right. And I love that you said it could be arguably worse. I mean, I really see that the overlap. Sorry, I just burped. Oh my God, I just burped.

Can we keep that? Honestly, real post, whatever. That was the cutest. I've been burping too, but I've been trying to do this. The way that I've actually never burped in my life and I actually think burping is disgusting. I don't know how that just came out of my mouth. I love it so much.

Wait, I literally hate burping, so I'm not a burper, people. Oh, it's so funny. But sure, we can leave it in whatever. I fucking love it. Honestly, because I'm so repulsed by what we're talking about that my body had to also. No, it's an involuntary bodily response. That was my body being like, screw health. Do whatever you want.

Fucking wellness bullshit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, here's another thing. I'm very passionate about encouraging people to reconnect with their intuition. Tell me about that. So much of diet culture and the wellness industry is other people telling you what you should do. And sometimes that's helpful. And sometimes that can change a life and that can be the epiphany that you need. But going back to what I said before, you could find an expert, PhD, who will tell you,

do keto. And you can find another expert that will tell you not. And you can also find an expert who's great and who's supportive and who's doing all the, yeah. And you can find an expert who will say, we have people who are addicted to sugar. There is a sugar addiction crisis. You will also find people who will say that is not true. So I'm just saying that. So if we don't really know like necessarily what is true and look, I don't, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I think don't go to the doctor. I go to the doctor. Yeah. I'm just saying, what about asking yourself, do I like green juice? Do I feel good when I go on a hike in the morning? Do I feel good when I have a bagel? Because maybe I do. Maybe a bagel gives me energy and I love the

taste of it. Literally, Victoria, I called you, I think like a couple of weeks ago and was talking to you about all this. And I was like, I am not willing to give up bagels. Yeah. I refuse. Like, I refuse. And if that's the reason that i like i have a few years early literally i'm like i'm not giving this fuck i love there is very few things that give me as much joy as an everything bagel with cream cheese oh i love an everything seed you're talking my language okay so i love that and you know what there are dietitians and nutritionists who would say tori a bagel for you every day is not good. And other people who are like moderation. Right, exactly.

So how do you feel? Because if you can have a bagel every morning, yeah, and you feel good and that's satisfying for you. Also, something I like to joke about a lot on my page is like what even is healthy? Because here's the thing. If you told me I could never have a bagel, that's triggering my binge eating disorder. I'm now feeling I have to restrict. There's deprivation. The binging voice in my head is like,

I'm gonna eat every bagel now. So no, it is not healthy for me to not have a bagel when I wanna have a bagel. Well, and we also, I think weirdly, there's been like the shift in the other direction in the hopes that like it feels positive. And I think people are well-intentioned when they do the food is fuel thing.

But then I'm thinking to myself, oh, I only need to eat, I don't know, the gruel that is protein-based that gives me enough energy to fuel my body, right? But then you're ignoring satisfaction. That's what I mean. You're a human. And I love food literally more than any, like I love food more than certain dead relatives of mine. Like I love food more than anything. And you know what? I love food more than certain dead relatives of mine. I love food more than anything. And you know what? I love that. And actually, I have my own complex that I'm working through around saying that I love food. And I do. I love food so much.

Nothing makes me happier than sitting down to eat good food, especially with someone else. I freaking love food. We literally, before we started rolling, I was telling you about this restaurant I'm going to tomorrow where I'm like, it's the chef from the final table. And I'm so excited about it. But you know what they kind of say to us women when we talk about food is like, oh, that's

so masculine and food is so monstrous. It's gluttonous. Gluttony? I grew up being told gluttony was a sin. So when I was at home at 10 o'clock at night anxious. Well, and what is gluttony? Binging. Yeah, I thought, oh, am I sinning? Because I'm eating a lot. I want to wrap 12-year-old Victoria up in a and i'm well that was more like 17 year old victoria sure i'll wrap

any age and i'm not saying i'm super religious and i thought i like needed to repent but like you know you just grow up seeing this is the portion for a female and this is the portion for a male i mean i grew up with my brothers being served more than me always because i'm the girl why would i eat as much as a guy right and then And then it's like that, oh, he's a grown boy. He needs thirds and fourths of everything. Literally. And my fiance is 6'5". I'm frequently out eating him, frequently, because it's different. And I think that's been really a release for me to understand is that all these labels around food and how we're supposed to eat and what we're supposed to eat, especially the way it's tied to women, we don't have to abide by that. And it might not be true for us. I am now

an avid intuitive eater. That is what saved my relationship with food. It might not work for everyone, but it has been just so amazing for me to ask myself, hey, I know it's 12 o'clock and it's quote unquote lunchtime. Am I hungry? Am I actually hungry? Right. Am I hungry? Okay. And do I want a salad or am I just thinking I should eat a salad? Because if I eat a sandwich, I'm going to feel guilty all day long. And why would I feel guilty? Who told me I can't have two pieces of bread? You know, it's powerful to unlearn, to question, do I actually want this? You know, I have more questions about the diet industry in particular, and we'll get there. But one thing I wanted to talk about as well

is the male gaze of all of this, right? So we talked about Victoria's Secret. And when we think about something now, they've evolved a lot, which I also I'm like, how do you celebrate progress while also being like, this is some bullshit. That's a thing I'm conflicted on. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts there. I would just say I at the end of the day, go back to compassion, but I really do think the change is great. And I think we have to celebrate change. I think it's important. You can proceed with caution as you celebrate, but, you know, I think we're all humans. And like, you know, I don't know if the same people running the company are the people that ran it back then.

I don't know. Right. Well, and for me, I mean, everything, honestly, you know, under capitalism is bullshit. But like, when you think about like, you're just doing this because you know, it's what sells now. Right. And I'm like, right. You're tempted to think is that is that what's the intention? You're right to wonder what it is. Right. And we might never know. Right. But when we think about like the early 2000s Victoria's Secret, the runway shows that was not for women. That was for men. Like, yes, women were tuning in, but like women and bikinis, that was for men. Like, yes, women were tuning in, but like women in bikinis, that was for men. Well, I would even go more specific with the beauty standard was to appease men. Yes. Thank you. That's where I was leading with that. So it feels like there's this added layer

of patriarchal bullshit where it's like, and again, I teach around personal finance where it's like we are conditioned as women to deprive ourselves of things that are joyful. So when you look at personal finance advice geared towards men, it is invest in this stock, buy this piece of property, negotiate your salary. And when we look at financial advice for women, it is stop spending money on these frivolous things. You can't buy the Dior purse, you fucking cow. Like that's the advice, right? So it's like for men, build your wealth. For women, deprive yourself of the things that we're deeming frivolous, right? And we've talked about this a lot, you and I privately. And I feel like the diet industry or the wellness industry, whatever you want to call it, is also doing that where they're literally like become as small as possible and

deprive yourself because then we can control you. And that's how you're going to find your man. Like that's what men like. If I had a dime for every time I heard, don't crack your knuckles, like, that's so manly, a boy won't like you. Or if I heard your arms are... Don't eat too much because boys don't like when you eat too much. Yeah, you're too hairy. Guys don't like hairy girls. Right.

Shave every body, wax every hair off your body, off every single region of your body in order to be appealing to men. Literally. I mean, the amount of times I think we've all heard, or boys won't like you. Boys, because we heard it when we were so young that you couldn't even call them men. Right. It was fifth grade cracking my knuckles. Oh, boys won't like it if you crack your knuckles. Right.

Right. Do it. I don't know if mine will make a sound, but I'll do it. I still do it. I think it's just rebellion. No, I love cracking. Mine don't really make a sound make a sound and can i just say something here to be cheesy when you do find a life partner that is your life partner they won't give a fuck because max doesn't care about anything and honestly like i've had moments with him where i'm sitting and like i remember i remember one time just like feeling so disgusted in my own skin

for whatever reason, I felt X, Y, Z. And he's just like chilling next to me and like, doesn't care. And I, it's not like you need that a person or a man to, to be your permission. Or to validate you. Yes. But in that moment, I thought, wow, I can't believe I thought that my life partner wouldn't like me if I didn't do a certain XYZ thing. I literally, I keep getting reminded of this because I am dating right now. And it's so funny getting naked with somebody. And they just look at me.

They just look at me like, who is this like God's gift to the earth? Yes, they do. And I'm like, like oh i have a stomach and i haven't shaved today and i really actually don't care like i really don't care i'm like yeah you are lucky to be in bed with me but it's very funny because the you're exactly right the men the capital m men are the ones who are just like i can't believe their goddamn look and i'm gonna sound like a first of all I freaking love that you just said that. And that's so iconic.

No, but they're looking at me and they're like, oh my God. And I'm like, yeah. Well, you know, would you say that confidence is a huge part of that too? Oh, a hundred percent. And not the bad confidence. Oh my God, you have so much confidence to be like, not the beauty standard and be comfortable who you are. That's what I mean.

Which people say to me all the time. They're like, oh my God, you're curvy. How are you so confident? I'm like, that's some bullshit. But the confidence that you feel comfortable, like anyone feels comfortable. Like I think it's powerful when anyone walks into a room and just isn't thinking about or scanning for what people are thinking or how they're perceiving them. Like that's the confidence I mean. And I think that's something I don't even feel like I have a lot of and I'm working on because when you can just sit in your body and sit in your skin, that is more

beautiful for me to witness in a human than them feeling so insecure and so not confident, but looking a different way. Well, and that's what I was saying before of like the whole system, financial, diet culture, like all of it is meant for us to be controlled, A, right? And B, for us to be as tiny and controllable as possible. And so you were saying like walk into a room and have nobody care. For me, it is different because I, in that moment, let's say I am, I'm naked with a boy, with a man, I am thinking, oh, I have, I have a stomach. Okay. okay oh i haven't shaved my legs oh i you know whatever and then i'm actively rerouting my brain to go that doesn't fucking matter right whatever that's the inner work doesn't fucking matter so important i'm so glad you like you know but i yeah i don't

want to be the person who's like yeah i'm confident all the time it's like no like i am choosing like i'm actively because i know it's not really me. It's society going, you should, you shouldn't have a stomach though. Like you should not have a stomach. And especially after this pandemic, you should really not have a stomach. Like you need to make that stomach go away. And I still fight that all the time. Yes.

And trying to work out because I want to feel stronger and not guilting myself into working out because it's what I should do in order to like, quote unquote, lose weight. Right. I'm so glad you said that because I think it sheds light on a really bigger point to anyone listening who's trying to heal their relationship with food or better their body image. Those thoughts are natural. That's what makes us human. Right. Your whole life, you've been conditioned to think one way about yourself and now you're doing the work to undo it. So to anyone listening who's like, I've been so good at my eating disorder recovery or I've been so positive about my body image or neutral, whatever it is. And then you have the day where the thought creeps in. Please, please, please don't say, damn it.

I thought I'd deal with this. Why am I having these thoughts? No, it's the same thing with personal finance, right? Like I am a personal finance expert and I still have moments where I have purchased something that I didn't really need and didn't really want to try to fill an emotional void. I do. I still do that shit. Like this is an ever progressing thing that you're trying to get better at, right? Yes. Cause you're human. And the last thing I would want people to walk away from this episode thinking is they've got to be totally the opposite and feel so in line with the revolt against the

rebellion to diet culture more so i think where we can really see a lot of growth is that compassion to where you can be in that moment tori and think okay yeah i know where that thought about my stomach is coming from because this is this shit's been really hard for me yeah um and i also had a partner my first partner ever and i've been public about this, who literally on a beach in Hawaii, I, oh, it's gonna make me cry, Victoria. I think I've told you this. I've never, I had never really honestly had a bad thought about my body. And I was lucky. I was like 20 at this point and like never really honestly internalized any sort of bad thought about my body. And then I was with my partner at the time who is an amazing person, but was going through some shit on his own and literally turned to me while we were on a beach and said, I think you should lose some weight.

Have I ever told you this? No. Yeah. And you can see like, it still affects me. It's so interesting. And I was like, why are you saying that? And he's like, my mom told me that she expected you to be skinnier because I hadn't met his family. And 20-year-old me was so angry, but also loved this person and ended up staying with this person for another like a year, year and a half. We worked through it. Eventually, he apologized. He acknowledged that he 100% was going through his own shit, which he was. And that's the other thing you start to realize, right? It's like people are projecting their own insecurities onto you. I'm not in contact with this person anymore. This person is not in my life and I've chosen to do that. It's so interesting though, because I don't give a fucking shit what this person thinks about me. Yet that has stayed with me for now seven

years. And it's so crazy because if he thought I was fat, i weigh i don't weigh myself anymore but i weigh at least 40 50 more pounds than i did then so it's so interesting how somebody else's opinion right when they're going through their own shit and they project it onto you that one comment from someone whose opinion i don't really care about anymore is still fucking with me seven years later fucking with me seven years later. Thank you for opening up and sharing that with everyone. Sure. I feel like I've got to take the interview role now. I'm like, Tori, thank you for opening up. And also I'm going to ask you a question here. I feel like this, when people tell us to lose weight or they comment on our bodies and I had, I've had moments like that as intense but where my mom sat me down and said you know you don't look like yourself xyz and you're like in high school and it feels like a like so much shame like I have

done something wrong and then the fact that you think they were talking about you when you weren't there I mean it's just yeah and I know again with all of the love in the world, I don't think they'll ever hear this, but with all the love in the world, I know that those were two people who were having severe crises about their own bodies. And so they couldn't control their own shit. Right. So they projected it onto somebody else. And what was really hard for me is I was supposed to be, and I think I was still, cause there, again, I, there were many beautiful moments with this person, but I am supposed to be desired by this person. I'm supposed to be wanted and celebrated.

And I was. But then I had to grapple with this other side where I have now this information that came out of his mouth. It just feels like such a breach of safety. Yes. Because it wasn't so much me in that moment feeling shame. I was so angry. But I was, I was going to say stuck in Hawaii, but like I couldn't leave unless I booked my own flight because we were supposed to fly home together like five days later. And if that would have happened to me now, I would not have tolerated that behavior. I would have been like, yep, I don't care. I'm paying for the flight and I'm leaving and I am not dealing with this. But I was 20 and I was young. It was my first relationship and I was trying to grapple with that. And so, yes, I felt shame, but it was more I was so angry and I was like, how could you do this? And then now throughout the years as I've reflected on it, it's still it's it just sits in

the back of my mind occasionally. It's so interesting. Do you think it's because you're afraid that something like that could happen again?. Do you think it's because you're afraid that something like that could happen again? No, I think it was literally just the first time I had ever, and again, I'm lucky that it took this long. I think it was the first time. That was your math equation moment. Yeah, yeah.

That was me logging, you know, Victoria's Secret models measurements and the notes app on my phone. It was the like, oh, am I fat? Which society's told you is a bad thing in a bad word, right? Right because this person who I love I'm crying but this person who I love is telling me I am right this person that I love Who is supposed to yeah desire me and want me and think me beautiful Is now telling me to change and I had never you know,'d had like thoughts of like oh should I do this right or should I work out more or should I do this but never really internalize them until that

moment because it was from somebody I cared about so much I'm so sorry I'm me too I like I just want to hold 20 year old me and just be like I do I hate that we're so far apart I would be holding your hand right now but like this person again like I can look back on this and be like this person was severely struggling with their own shit. And I know that now because there was a lot of other things going on that I want to keep his privacy on. But like, there was a lot of other things that were happening in this man's life. And a lot of things that were happening for his mom. And it was very much like hurt people, hurt people. And I just now have to deal with that, which I think is really interesting.

It makes me think about the way that even though we have our own personal relationship with food and our body, inevitably other people are involved in that. I now have a healthy relationship with food, but I am very sensitive to certain things. And I'm now in a relationship with someone where we do eat every meal together. We live together. And I've had to communicate, where we do eat every meal together. We live together and I've had to communicate like, you know, under no circumstance will I ever want you to make a comment about what I'm eating or how my body looks. And I've had to... Well, because you're in a healthy relationship and the relationship I was in was my first relationship, which in a lot of ways was really fantastic and in a lot of ways I would not tolerate right right but yet you know you know that after growing older and dating other people but yeah i think i just yeah it's really

interesting that those those thoughts still fuck with me and that's okay everyone has not to minimize but to to comfort i think we all have those i mean i'm remembering this moment when i was 12 i couldn't tell you another thing i can't even tell you my 12th birthday but i remember this person what they said where we were yep and. Yep. It's the weird things that we just internalized it. Okay. I don't know. We're off on a tangent, but I want to bring us back to diet culture. There's a lot of trendy, we're not a diet. We're a lifestyle or we're wellness, right? Weight watchers. Noom. Talk to me about Noom. You know. Because it's going to be awkward because we just signed with a podcast network and I have a feeling we're going to try to get a...

I have a feeling Noom is going to try to sponsor our show. No, you won't accept that, right? No, I don't think so. Well, tell me. Tell me why I shouldn't. Because... I won't because I know enough, but I want you... I want everybody else to know what's going on.

Noom has disguised themselves as intuitive eating, which to me, that's personal. That's on home base, baby, because... I don't think we've defined intuitive eating. Yes. So intuitive eating is a self-care approach to food, a framework that incorporates rational thought, satisfaction, and mindfulness into the eating experience. It was coined by Elise Resch and Evelyn Tribolet, who wrote a book called Intuitive Eating. And they just have a recent edition come out. It's phenomenal. I highly recommend it to everyone. And intuitive eating is essentially checking with your body's cues of, okay, am I hungry? Yes, I have the hunger cues. Okay. What sounds satisfying to me? What's going to

give my body like what I need, how I want to feel. And it's not just what I need for fuel. It's like, I'm craving this or not craving. Craving is probably not the right word. Well, you're also incorporating satisfaction. Right. You know, you want to make sure you're enjoying this food. Like this thing tastes good and I like this thing. And you're going to feel good after. It's a mix of everything.

Right. And intuitive eating is like bringing us back to our most natural form, right? I mean, when you were a baby, you would cry and that meant hungry, water, and then when you were done, you would cry again to signal full, stop feeding me, stop. You had cues.

And then as we grow up and the world says, eat this many calories a day, stop eating at seven, no stop eating at eight, no stop eating at six. Yeah, don't eat this, don't eat that. You don't even listen to your body. You're not even thinking about, do I want an egg white? You're just like, I'm supposed to eat egg whites. That's what the influencers eat, egg whites.

So intuitive eating is really reclaiming your relationship with food as your own. And it is something that more and more people are becoming aware of, thankfully, right? I love to get to a place where instead of all the diet culture ads, it was like intuitive eating, like, you know, purchase these books, here's some classes, here's some resources, here's so you can get better in touch with your body. You don't intuitively eat to lose weight or change yourself.

So if you're approaching it as a diet or in the back of your mind, you're thinking, I hope I lose weight. It's not going to work. Intuitive eating at a very, very basic high level is, yeah, eating what you want when you're hungry, when you want. There's so much that goes into that, obviously. There's different things, whether it's lack of access to certain foods or whatnot. So intuitive eating can be a privilege. I will say though, Noom, if you search intuitive eating, Noom comes up first. Are they paying for that? Are they paying an ad? Yeah, probably. Allegedly, allegedly. I'm literally going to, I'm going to do it right now. Keep talking.

And that breaks my freaking heart because if someone listens to this and they're like, oh, I'm interested in intuitive eating. I want to be done with diet culture. And they Google intuitive eating. The first thing they're going to get is a disguised diet. Okay. So first thing I get is the book. Really?

Yeah. Okay. And then I get intuitiveeating.org. Let me, I'm scrolling to see how long it takes. Wait, but you're on your phone on the computer. It's like, yeah, it's a different, it's like that. I don't know. But on the, yeah.

Cause you get the ads at the top. I'm positive. I did this recently and I saw, yeah, the new ad was at the top. I don't get any ads at the top. So maybe that's the issue. And they say things like, it's not a diet. It's a lifestyle. But if you're tracking your calories, what you're eating and your weight.

What is it? My fitness pal? Well, here's the, here, here. If you are trying to lose weight, it's you're eating and your weight. Right, what is it, my fitness pal? Well, here, here, here. If you are trying to lose weight, it's not intuitive eating. Bottom line. Right, because my mom is currently, she's pre-diabetic. She got that diagnosis two years ago. And so she had to completely overhaul everything she ate because she did not want to go on insulin.

And mom, you're probably not listening to this. Please, God, because I mentioned naked men. But if you are, like I have never, I don't think I've ever been more proud of my mom because she is completely, she has not had to go on insulin because she's completely changed her lifestyle to a point where she's like, this is what I want to do because I don't want to depend on a medicine. And she has found that she has to track, she has to track her carbs. Yes. Right. And I love that you said that because of course there are exceptions. And of course our conversation, I want to just clarify is a clarify, is a very broad anti-diet conversation.

I'm not saying if you have diabetes or you have a health concern or you're gluten-free that you shouldn't do that. And if you are trying to intuitively eat and you have dietary restrictions, there are amazing intuitive eating anti-diet dieticians who can help you with that. Because that's unique and that's not an experience that I've had. We're talking really about you're trying to lose weight because you feel like you need to lose weight right right right yes so the weight watchers the nooms like it's still part of diet culture i mean when weight watchers came out with that thing for kids and it was like color coordinated there were like red foods that were bad, yellow foods that were good. And then any, any instance where we are villainizing foods or food groups is diet culture.

Right. And actually speaking of maintenance phase, they have a phenomenal episode on fat camps. Did you listen to that one? I actually, that's the one I have not listened to. Oh, that one is rough. It's crazy. It's just like the shaming and the judgment. I listened to the one on biggest loser Oh, yeah, that one was really interesting as well. I get we'll drop me in this phase. It's so great But I feel like again like all of these things it's like we're we're disguising this as healthy But we're really doing this in order to hate yourself or in order for you to hate yourself and just get your money That's what I mean is like if you keep hating yourself, well you'll keep coming back right if you're never satisfied with who you are then we'll keep making

money off of you all these things are now packaging themselves in a different way right again under like the the the wellness label yeah sure so how can we be aware of something that is being sold to us that's just as harmful but has been repackaged as something less harmful? It's tricky because diet culture is very sneaky. It knows how to disguise itself. It knows how to warm up to you and tell you, you can do this and it's going to be great and you're going to be a better you. It takes scanning for it. It takes looking for it. I would just say your red flag should go up anytime weight loss is involved, anytime calorie counting is involved, or a food is being glorified, skinny pop, any labels like that. I remember, do you remember the thin, the 100 calorie packs? Yes. The thin Oreos? Yes. Do you remember those the thin, the hundred calorie packs? Yes. The thin Oreos?

Yes. You remember those? I do. Early 2000s? Remember like Halo Top? I used to binge Halo Top pints because I wouldn't allow myself to eat ice cream. Yep. I would go and get Halo Top because I was like, it's healthier. And look, I'm not, I'm not super black and white in the sense that, you know, some of these things are bad. But sometimes I eat Skinny Pop. If a friend has it and it tastes good. I actually really like skinny pop. Yeah, exactly. So I'm not saying like, I'm not the kind of person that says, oh, you have a different view than me.

Like, I'm not going to talk to you and I'm going to block you. But I am aware of like, yeah, this doesn't serve me. So just not for me. What are the marketing tactics? You said anytime weight's involved, anytime you're calorie tracking. Yeah, I would say when the goal is weight loss um you know when you're tracking what you're eating and how much you weigh i would say verbiage like diet like guilt-free skinny skinny light sometimes yes guilt-free i feel like it's a yeah that one's just so fucking loaded it implies you should feel

guilty for anything that isn't this yeah and small verbiage like helps with weight loss i mean all the time when i get ads for my podcast sponsors that are trying to come on the show i have to go to a website and i scan for this stuff i look through everything and sometimes a brand is completely perfect and then you know in the about section it says and help support weight loss and i'm like sorry this bullet point is the reason I can't work with you Yeah, I feel like it's easy to like rant on the kardashians and shit like that. But I do feel like they In particular are easy. They're easy targets. I want to acknowledge that but there's a lot of the the Lollipops the diet lollipops and the diet teas right skinny meaty

Which is literally, and you can probably tell me way more than I know, but from my understanding, it's literally supposed to make you poop. I mean, it's just like laxatives disguised. Yeah. Yes. It's horrible.

And so you have these companies that have enough money to pay a Kardashian half a million dollars to post about something like this, which is, that's like the rate for a Kim Kardashian Instagram post. I think it might be more than that. Did you say 100,000? 500. Oh, I was gonna say, yeah,

it's way more than 100,000. Yeah, it's like half a million, a million. I think it's above a million. Yeah, I think the Kardashians are ranked. I think Kim's more expensive. You can knock it on any of their Instagrams for less than millions, is my guess. Yeah, so not only do you have these companies

that have that kind of money, so they're making money not just again kardashians easy target bunch of people are doing this shit bunch of influencers and look i have compassion for the kardashians sure people think i'm a kardashian hater because i always expose their content on what they filtered and what they haven't again like they're an easy target but there's a bunch of other people doing this shit too totally and also like, hey, like also woman to woman, like I have a place in my heart where I'm like, ah, Chloe, like, gosh, it hurts my heart that you feel like you have to filter yourself this much. It hurts my heart that the entire world made you feel bad.

And I don't even know how I would function if I would be you. And maybe I already get enough shit that the little teeny tiny way lowercase f fame that I have. And so- Jesus Christ, being a Kardashian. It could be survival mode. I have sympathy.

Where I struggle to be patient is when you are actively lying or selling bullshit. Right, what was that interview they gave where they were like, no, we just care about making our bodies the best.

Well, they said that they do not think that they- I think it was they allegedly, I might be be quoting it wrong something like they don't think that they're creating an unattainable beauty standard i know kylie has a different face now which is fine she's allowed to do that but she has a different face and it's not because of makeup and look i get it i think where kim was coming from was like i should be able to post a picture of myself at the beach and that not trigger someone. 100%.

I understand that. You should be able to live your life. But if you're selling a cosmetic company in order for me to look like you, but you, again,

have a different face. Yeah, and I also think you can acknowledge, you know, it wasn't my intention. I don't sit down at work with Chris every morning thinking,

how do we create an unattainable beauty standard? But you could acknowledge, I think it has gotten out of hand and that might be the impact on some people. Right. Because that's true.

Right. So tummy tease, if I pay anybody online to post, it means that this company has enough money to post. And then of course, they're making more money from people who are trying to lose weight, trying to change themselves off of that post. How does the diet industry focus on that cyclical social media cyclone in order to make more money? Well, it's similar to how you just described it. You pay someone for an advertisement. They advertise to their following. Their followers think, if I do this, I will look like this person. If I follow your what I eat in a day video, if I buy the food that you have, if I work out like you, I will look like you. That's why you

get influencers saying, this is my booty blast program. This is the diet I follow. These programs, and then they monetize them and they put up a paywall because they know a little part of you thinks you think you will be or look like them if you do this. And we all have that where we fangirl around people. I mean, there are people I follow that I love and if they wear something, I want to wear it too. Well, and I think both of us would be lying if we said that I don't want this, but I'm fully aware that there's probably a percentage of the people who follow you

because they want to have your life. Oh, and I want to acknowledge too. And a percentage of people follow me who want to have my life. Yes, and also I think people are very receptive to me being anti-diet, intuitive eating, pro-intuitive eating because they still, a little part of them still looks at me and is like, okay, this is a girl and a voice and an image I'll believe. But if you add the same person on this

podcast today in a different body from a different life, I mean, actually that's a lie because your fans are woke and they're amazing i will post as a you know and it doesn't even i have such an interesting relationship because i've like i want to acknowledge like of course i'm not skinny but i'm also i'm like i'm mid-size right as i'm probably yeah i'm I'm I probably classify myself if I had to as mid-size but it's really interesting because yeah I'll post something in a bikini and I know full well that the comment section is gonna be like yes yes you go you go and like the subtle they're they're doing that well intentionally but the subtle uh like underlying part of that comment is like oh my god she's so confident. And like,

I love that she feels confident in her body. I actually have a question for you about this. Yeah. So I have seen a lot of Instagrams and things where, you know, there will be times where people will say, you know, I'm posting this photo and I've done this too. Like I'm posting this photo and I was insecure about the stretch marks on my back or, you know, these side roles showing. But like I'm embracing and there's a message around it and there's an acknowledgement of it. And then there's people saying, let's get to a place where you just post this photo and the captions about your dog and you're not even having to like point out or acknowledge the body insecurity. And I see that. I do.

And I've shifted more that way. And I think I try to incorporate that a lot more. I see that. I do, and I've shifted more that way, and I think I try to incorporate that a lot more. I see both. However, I do think we can't jump from A to Z because I do think the people that are commenting, Tori, you're so brave, they're not saying that backhandedly, even though it might be that way.

No, I know their intention is really lovely. So yeah, I'm curious. Do you think we should jump to Z? Do you think there's meaning in the middle way? It's a good question. One, I'm not the expert on this, but two, I'm going to have to take a couple minutes to fully explain this because it's going to sound manipulative.

Social media is a performance. Always. Always, always. And even if you are not making a living off of social media, the very art of social media is a performance. And I love Bo Burnham. Bo Burnham, this amazing comedian who I've been following for like 10 years. I love this man. Wait, I'm sorry. I got someone emailing me this morning from an address called Bo Burnham. Bo Burnham, this amazing comedian who I've been following for like 10 years. I love this man.

Wait, I'm sorry. I got someone emailing me this morning from an address called Bo Burnham, like something at gmail.com saying, hey, it's Bo. How are you? And I literally, me and my assistant read it. Well, it's not him.

I know, but that's just, my heart went pitter patter for a second. Me and my assistant read it. Like, do you think we would believe Bo Burnham just emailed me? Delete. He's on my like, I get three people dead or alive at dinner.

He's one of them. Oh my God, that's genius because I'm putting him on my list too. I love him so much. But he, and I'll link some of the stuff he's talked about, but he talks about how social media is just this generation's answer to the demand to perform.

So whether or not, again, you make a living off of social media, if you have a social media account, even if it's a Twitter you tweet from once a year, you are performing your life. And that is a very hard thing to realize. Even me who is very, I hope you know, I'm very well intentioned, right? My heart is in the right place. I am here because I fully believe in the work I'm doing. Everything we post on social media is our performance. Me being vulnerable and authentic, and I'll put both of those in quotes,

is not me doing it maliciously, but I'd be lying. And I think anybody's lying who says that they don't think about that vulnerability as you are performing vulnerability by the very fact of posting it on social media. Right. So and I do that shit, too, where I'm like, hi, I'm in a bikini and it was scary to post, but I'm posting it anyway. I know for a fact that the response is going to be, yes, that's so great. I feel better about my body because you did. Because you've signaled that that's the message you want to talk about totally and in the other way of if i just post something that would be and all of it's again within the societal standards right is yes you should just

be able to post whatever you want and yeah be like i'm eating a burrito and i'm excited about the burrito not the fact that i have you know know, rolls on my side or I, you know, whatever. I have, you know, visible armpit hair or something. Right. That shouldn't be a statement. But in the fact that even then I'm not calling it again, all of this is within the means of like a performance. And we don't like that because it makes us feel uncomfortable. Like I'm performing my life, but it's literally what we're doing. I do feel uncomfortable because I I don't really, Tori.

I'm so comfy with you. I just mean I am sitting here thinking, I don't know if I 100% agree. Tell me. I do think that if you're... I've never posted a crying photo just because to me that... No, I agree. That definitely does feel more of a performance. I'm not saying that the person wasn't really crying, that they don't really feel the pain.

But if you have the moment... I feel like it's a little i think i think it's uh potentially really dangerous uh for you to be in the middle of crying and then to think i need to take a photo of this to document it i don't know like that feels really weird to me i totally see that also just to i've never posted a photo like that but the content creator in me to defend you do get into a to play devil's advocate a place where everything you do in your life you share and so you so you're trying to share the bad moments i totally can't help it that's what i'm saying is it is a performance right because even if you're having this moment and then you're like i should share this because it's the right thing to do and again your intentions are good like my intentions are never like oh i'm gonna perform vulnerability

because it's manipulative like Like I'm never doing that. But you are making when you post something, you are making a conscious choice of somebody else is going to see this. Right. And I'm to your point about messaging. I am trying like this is the message I want someone to get across. And whether we like it or not, that is a performance. Now, that performance can be positive. That performance is trying to get somebody to feel a certain way or to do a certain thing.

Right. But I argue it is a performance. I almost would prefer the word calculated because performance to me feels fake. But we know from Taylor Swift, calculated, right? Does she give that whole interview, right? Where men do something and it's strategic. Women do something that's calculated. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

You're right. Did I just pull the Taylor Swift on the Taylor Swift fan to end all Taylor Swift fans? I think you did. But wait, I... Because she says it's in a negative light of like yeah i think so i don't think i don't that the word calculated like is well that's funny because i was manipulative i was just gonna say like it does have a negative connotation i guess i would almost say like performance to me seems like yeah yeah jazz fingers like i'm acting like i i think i hear performance i think acting.

But I do think I know what you're saying of like, there is an awareness of what you're doing. That's what I mean by the word performance. Right. Is it's just like, wait, so so answer the question, though. Do you think that we should jump to Z or do you think it's fine for people to make posts and acknowledge whatever the perceived insecurity is? It's a really good question, because I think my point is more when you're thinking about like making a statement, I think it will help so many people. And I think the net impact is positive, right? It is whether, again,

whether we like it or not, it is you saying, I am here in this world and the world is telling me not to be brave, but I'm being brave anyway. And I would define that as a performance again not bad it's just like you're you're realizing that in the same way that like i actually did this i posted a photo i think on valentine's day two years ago of me and my underwear and you could see my body hair and I didn't reference my body hair. I didn't reference any of that. People in the comments lost their goddamn minds, like lost their minds. And it was women, women who were like, I don't want to see my like financial advisors body hair.

And like, I don't want to see that. And like, this is not why I came here. And other people are like, this is not your brand. And I'm like like you don't get to decide what my brand is and other people of course even if I didn't call attention to it I am I knew what was going on in that photo I knew you could see my my body hair I knew you could see that and I knew I'd probably get comments about it so even in the act of me posting unless I was doing it and completely didn't notice or was completely blind to it yeah you know and also I don't know if I have an answer for you really. But you know what? I'm almost coming up with an answer. Great. To tell, I'm like almost coming up with an answer to my question. Not me like playing devil angel this whole interview with

myself. I'm just trying to paint the picture for everyone. But I would say. You're just crunk. You got crunk over here. I literally do do I think what's the most powerful about not acknowledging these things in like instagrams and posts like would be the fact that we are elevating ourselves beyond a conversation about our appearance that I can just live my life post post this picture, X, Y, Z, and not have to make it be about anything about the way that I look. And look. But people still will. And I think that's my point of like I posted a photo with very, very visible body hair. And people again lost their goddamn mind.

Which is then what is the one part of me that's like, so then do you think it is okay for people to write a caption? P.S. And I know my body hair is here, but I am empowered by my hair. X, Y, Z. I think it's fine. Like, I don't know. So yeah, it's, it's so much.

There's so much. No, it's very layered. And I don't think there isn't. That's my answer is there isn't an answer. And I'm also not an expert on this, but when I'm again, I think you're,

you're right in me in describing what I mean by performance. I don't mean jazz hands. I just mean that if you're posting something, you have the knowledge that somebody else will see this. And so you're trying to, you're posting something with a message or with trying to get somebody to do something or feel something.

And for me, like that, yeah, I would define that as a performance. Again, not positive or negative, potentially. And again,, like that, yeah, I would define that as a performance. Again, not positive or negative, potentially. And again, you're not necessarily doing it in a way that is harmful or manipulative. But at the end of the day, like you're doing it with an audience. Right. I hear you. What do we feel like are some quote unquote easy ways of combating the diet industry? I think of like Girlfriend, who's an amazing athleisure brand out of Seattle that I love, like using quote-unquote real models. They don't retouch their photos. Like what do you see as some very basic things that either we as

individuals can do or companies can start doing to combat all of the negatives that the diet industry brings? Well, one of the principles of intuitive eating is reject the diet mentality. So just rejecting that, whether you see it in magazines, you see it in media, commercials around you, when you hear it come up in yourself, Elise Resch and Evelyn Tribble, actually, Elise Resch has a workbook, the intuitive eating workbook, where you can literally journal, they call it the food police, which is the voice in your head that's saying, don't eat this, don't eat that. So just overall rejecting diet mentality. I think really surrounding yourself with people who are aligned with your beliefs and the way that you

want to talk about yourself and you're going to talk about others. I think it's so important. I mean, this is hard stuff. This is really hard stuff. And it's going to be even harder if you're going to lunch every day with your coworker that's talking about their diet and talking about weight loss. And so I think- Talking about how much they hate themselves, which is really sad. Yeah. Take an inventory of the environment. And that also means social media. You know, everyone saw the movie. What was the new social dilemma on Netflix? What was the movie, the social network movie? Do you know what it was? The Social Dilemma about how Instagram's terrible for us? Was it the Social Dilemma?

I think so. I never watched it because I knew I would have to think too hard about what I did. No, you're good. So I'll say it like this. You know, the Social Dilemma came out on Netflix and it basically revealed how an algorithm essentially works. You engage with content, the little people on the phone recognize that this is keeping you there. They pull more of it from the freaking archives of tech and throw it back at you. And then you stay on your phone. That said, if you engage with positive content, with anti-diet culture things, with influencers. Things that make you feel good about yourself. Yeah, that are helpful. The algorithm will feed you more of the same. So pull out your phone, make cuts, block people, mute people, delete people, create, be super

specific about your environment. I think that's also been so helpful for me because I don't even have experiences anymore where people say toxic things. And I think that's also been so helpful for me because I don't even have experiences anymore where people say toxic things. And I think maybe in part because I'm so active on social media, anyone who hangs out with me just knows the deal. But I was intentional about that. And there are some friendships

and things I had to slow down on because they weren't going in the same way that I was. And that's okay. Yeah. What would you tell 12-year-old Victoria if she were here right now? I would... I'm like, I just watched The Adam Project. I'd like transport back five minutes before I walked into the room and was told that I was lean. No, I'm kidding. What would I tell myself? You know, it's interesting because I also appreciate

how everything I've ever experienced has led me here at this table in this moment with you. I'm not asking you to change it. I'm just asking what would you tell her? I would probably tell her that when the time comes where you feel like you're really struggling with your mental health, whether that is an eating disorder, your depression, anxiety, it's okay. You're a human. There's nothing wrong with you for being here. You're not less than, you're not not good enough. You're not not a leader. You're human. And there's some wild shit out there and this makes sense, unfortunately. So it's okay. Because I think when I was beginning to really struggle with my mental health,

I felt like I had really lost in some way. Like I had failed in some way and that I couldn't be perfect enough to avoid quote unquote weakness. That you had failed. Yeah. And so it's like, you know, i think it's probably weird for people to hear an athlete like say prepare to fail but sometimes it is healthy to entertain the fact that not everything will go our way and we're going to be okay victoria i think that's actually that i mean i think that's beautiful because i i had a i you know i have my own answer for like 20 year old me tell us Tell us. I mean, it's probably, again, these people are hurting and it has nothing to do with you. But I think it's actually really more beautiful what you were saying of like, I'm not surprised this shit happened and it's going to keep happening.

And I can't shield you from all this shit. Because again, I want to hug 12-year-old Victoria. I want to hug 20-year-old Victoria Torrey. I want to take care want to hug 12 year old Victoria I want to hug 20 year old Victoria Torrey right like I like I want I want to take care of you know both of us but it's also like it's going to keep happening and that's the really shitty part is it's like preparing rather of like how can you do your best through it knowing that like it's going to keep happening you know and have kindness and compassion for yourself when it comes and especially everybody else the whole society again is trying to make you control you and shame and

judge you and if you are contributing to your own shame and judgment like that's hard it's hard enough just to deal with the shame and judgment from everybody else yet alone the shame and judgment that you're then putting on yourself. My last question. So if we're thinking about younger us, is there anything you and I or listeners can do to take care of the 12-year-olds in the future? Or the 20-year-olds in the future? How do we make... It's the biggest question in the world,

but how do we make the world a better place for the women and the girls who are going to come up after us? I wish I had a guidebook and I could give the answers. But to give a tangible thing that I do feel like people can walk away with and that they have control of. And calling from your example and my example is the way that we talk about food and our bodies is so important. And sometimes not saying anything is better. And the fact that I remember this time when I was 12 and you remember this time when you were 20, and I bet every single person listening truly can remember a comment at some point, whether it was said to them or said about someone

else. And then they thought about it. Moms might say, oh, I don't tell my daughter to lose weight, but do you look in the mirror and hate your body? Because she hears that and she thinks she looks like you. Brene Brown talked about that a lot where she was... Really? Yeah. She was talking to her daughter about like, you should love yourself. And like, we love your pigtails and we love all these things. And then she was like, I literally watched my daughter watch me pick myself apart in the mirror. And so it's like, okay, I'm telling her one thing, but I'm doing another. It's like, I just got chills. So I think what's one thing that we can do to prevent

that is be really mindful and really careful and really intentional about the way that we talk about bodies, food, whether it's someone else's or it's our own. Yeah. I've seen this whole movement as well. And I'm trying to be more conscious about this of when you're giving young girls a compliment, try not to compliment their appearance. Just don't. Just don't. Because we don't do that with boys, right? Compliment their, yeah, their intuition or their initiative. Or they look so happy to be there. Or you love the fact that they're with their friends they haven't seen in a while. I mean, just if you compliment someone's body, people may say, why is it a bad thing? Because we don't even know how they're obtaining this body. So you're going to compliment someone

for looking really thin. What if they're not even eating? Then you're just praising them for this behavior. Maybe that's triggering for them or like, you just never know. Just there's literally so many other things you can compliment someone on. Right. Well, and it works regardless of if yeah they're young girls or not right right yeah you look happy to be here i'm so happy to see you as opposed to i love this photo yeah the weather looks amazing um can't wait to see you yeah your smile is contagious love the energy in this pic yeah the list goes on and on what is that the volume on this bus is astronomical.

And where can folks find you if they want to learn more about your work? Oh, well, I have a podcast called Real Pod. It's so good, guys. And I'm also on it. I know. Tori's been on and we got to have you on again. You can listen wherever you stream. It's called Real Pod. We have conversations essentially just like this, where we're pulling back the curtain and everyone's coming on to share their honest stories, what they're struggling with, what they're going through. My Instagram is Victoria Garrick. And honestly, I feel like nowadays from Instagram, you can pretty much find everything. So those two. Yep. Okay. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks.

Thank you again to Victoria for her vulnerability and for her advocacy. This episode was one of my favorite conversations because I think it's relevant to, unfortunately relevant to so many of us who grew up with the narrative of skinny equals good and fat equals bad, or the idea that food is somehow our enemy, or this notion that we need to be in constant pursuit of skinniness, of thinness, of changing ourselves to live up to this completely unobtainable standard of what our body should look like. So once again, if you know someone who is struggling, if you yourself are struggling, there is help out there, nationaleatingdisorders.org for more information. Victoria also has a list of

books, social media accounts, and other resources at her website, victoriagaric.com, and that's with an A-G-A-R-R-I-C-K. We'll make sure to link it in our show notes. And if you're a student athlete, don't forget to check out her nonprofit, The Hidden Opponent. And as always, if you're enjoying the show, please subscribe, please rate, please review. It helps more than you know. And share it with friends, family members that could use this information. We want the mission of financial feminism to reach as many people as possible. We appreciate your support of our movement of the show. And as always, Financial Feminists, we will see you back here soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields,

marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Koenig, Sharice Wade, Alina Hilzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koenig, and Ana Alexandra. Research by Ariel Johnson. Audio engineering by Austin Fields, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, episode show notes, and our upcoming book, also titled Financial Feminist, visit herfirst100k.com.