Financial Feminist - 170. Date Like a Feminist with Lily Womble

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

Are you tired of outdated, stereotypical, male-centered dating advice? Are you ready to embrace a more powerful approach to finding love? In this episode of the Financial Feminist, Tori sits down with Lily Womble, founder and CEO of Date Brazen and author of 'Thank You, More Please,' to discuss an intersectional approach to navigating the dating world. From breaking traditional dating norms to building self-trust and joy in your love life, this conversation offers invaluable insights for anyone looking to thrive in their relationships. Whether you're single, dating, or in a relationship, Lily's feminist approach to dating is designed to help you create a fulfilling and joyful love life on your own terms. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/170-date-like-a-feminist-with-lily-womble/  Lily’s Links: Lily’s website: https://www.datebrazen.com/ Lily’s book: https://www.datebrazen.com/book Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz. Special thanks to our sponsors: Thrive Causemetics Get an exclusive 10% off your first order at thrivecausemetics.com/FFPOD Squarespace Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Hill House Visit hillhousehome.com and use the discount code TORI at check out for 15% off. Indeed Visit indeed.com/FFPOD to get a seventy-five dollar sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We're not taught how to even acknowledge what we want without it feeling threatening or feeling scary. Even starting there, giving yourself permission and learning your own essence-based preferences and then asking for what you want the first time, that baby step work leads to massive freedom down the road. Hello, financial feminists. Welcome to the show. I'm a Stanley Cup girl.

That's the update. That's the life update. I resisted it. I really did. I was like, they're ridiculous. They're too big. I just had my normal water bottle. I don't need anything more than that.

And then I was gifted my first Stanley Cup and I was like, let's see what all the fuss is about. And now, we're a fan. I have like three. I didn't buy them. I just keep getting gifted them. And I get it. I get it. I am hydrated. I'm carrying it around like a mom from New Jersey. I'm like, I gotta go pick the cakes up like soccer practice. And I, Timmy's sick again and I gotta kick him up from school. I don't know. I'm doing a lot of picking up. That's what happens when you're a mom from New Jersey with your Stanley cup. Okay. Anyway, hello. Welcome to the show. If you're new here, welcome.

My name is Tori. I teach you how to be good with money and fight the patriarchy by getting you rich, which is pretty cool. This show talks about how money affects women differently, but really a lot of the things that affect women differently. And if you're an oldie, but a goodie, you already knew that. If you're wondering where to get started on your money journey, well, first of all, you're in a great place just listening to this show.

We have over 150 episodes for you to go listen to about everything in anything personal finance, but also feminism. And you can take our six step quiz to get a free personalized money plan at herfirsthundredk.com slash quiz. We will also link it down below. Today's guest is a fun one because first of all,

we've never done a dating episode on this show. But second of all, it happens a lot where I realized the guest and I have a lot of the same interests and are basically the same person. Lily Womble is the founder and CEO of Date Brazen, whose mission is to help badass feminist humans build joyful, fulfilling and confident as hell dating lives that lead to extraordinary love. A fierce feminist from a young age, Lily bucked against this convention and now, as a feminist dating coach, helps women center themselves and not a romantic relationship as the marker of their worth and power. Hell yeah. Lily began her career in the feminist advocacy and nonprofit space from starting a nonprofit to end sex trafficking in Alabama to working for an international women's rights organization. In 2015, she moved to New York City

to try a new career in musical theater. Are you starting to see where she and I might be similar? During that time, she worked various side hustle jobs and on a whim took another as a matchmaker because if anything it would make a good story. After a series of unfulfilling situationships, Lily realized that the answer to finding love was much deeper than a first date and that the way we are taught to date is still stuck in the patriarchal dark ages. She broke up with matchmaking and founded her company Date Brazen in 2018 and has since helped hundreds of women create love lives that are epic, subtle-proof and joyful as hell with her intersectional feminist approach.

Her debut book, Thank You, More Please! A Feminist Guide to Breaking Dumb Dating Rules and Finding Love shares a proven guide to creating a confident and joyful dating life that makes the right relationship inevitable. We're talking today about dating, duh, of course, but specifically why dating hasn't really progressed in a way that's made it better for anyone, not just women, what it means to date like a feminist, why traditional dating advice is mostly trash, why Lily and myself don't like the phrase, if they wanted to, they would, and why Lily thinks dating apps aren't really built for people looking for relationships.

So if you are someone who is doing the swiping thing, who is struggling to meet people, is maybe out of a relationship for the first time and trying to figure out what's going on, this is a perfect episode. It's also a great episode to send to your single friends who are feeling like, oh my God, maybe something's wrong with me because, hint, it's not you, babe. It's not you.

It's the patriarchal bullshit. Without further ado, let's go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. This episode of Financial Feminist is sponsored in part by ADT, Indeed, Hill House, Thrive Cosmetics and Squarespace. ADT spends all their seconds helping protect all of yours. Count on ADT, America's most trusted name in home security. Visit ADT.com today. Find quality candidates fast with Indeed.

Get a $75 job credit for more visibility at indeed.com slash ffpod. Hill House Home is the ultimate destination for dress girls with the perfect dresses for the summer season. Shop at hillhousehome.com and use discount code TORI for 15% off at checkout. Thrive Cosmetics lets you refresh your everyday look with foolproof vegan products made with clean skin loving ingredients. Get an exclusive 10% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com slash FF pod. Build a beautiful website to get your message out into the world with Squarespace. Go to squarespace.com slash FF pod to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Planning for a summer road trip?

Check. Luggage? Check. Music? Check. Snuggage? Check. Music? Check. Snacks, drinks, and everything we can win in a new game at Circle K? Check! With Circle K's Summer Road Trip game, you can win over a million delicious instant prizes and a grand prize of $25,000! Play at games.circlek.com or at participating Circle K stores. Do you have a background in musical theater? Is that what we found out? Yes.

Okay, so I majored in theater in college. Musical theater or straight plays? Straight, straight theater. We did some, it wasn't a big enough program to support like both, but I grew up doing both. But I am like, I love musicals, but I was trained more in straight theater. Okay, got it. I feel that it helps us in our careers now. Oh, the amount of people who are like, what are you going to do with a theater degree? I'm like, I don't know, make a lot of money, show up on a podcast, do fine. Be the most polished podcast you've ever seen in your whole life. So fucking, fucking polished.

Yes. No, I know, but I think that's one thing that I wish more people talked about is it's like, what are you going to do with those liberal arts degree? And I'm like, basically anything, anything you want. Yeah, live my life well. I don't know. I know. What's your favorite musical? I know. Pick your favorite child. A chorus line. A chorus line. Okay. Yeah. Like, sales did looks three and I'm still- Oh yeah. I went through a big tits and ass phase.

Look, I as a child was like, oh my God, this is the funniest thing I've ever heard of my life. Same thing. And I was like, Wow, this is so scandalous. And it was on my iPod and my parents didn't know it. Oh, well. And then when I became a Gilmore Girls fan, which is a huge other part of my personality, I also learned about the Emily Gilmore, which is obviously, what's her name? I'm blanking on her. Kelly. Kelly Bishop. Yep. Was in the original cast. And that's her story of like, my dad cheated on my mom. And my mom found the mistress's panties in the back of her car. That's like her life story in the play. I don't know if I knew that.

That's fucking wild. Okay, so I'm a big Grimoire Girls fan too. I grew up on Gilmore Girls. I feel like if I can point to anything and be like that determined my personality, it was the dialogue of Gilmore Girls. Oh, just the like, just the references. Yeah, I mean, if you read my book,

like it's a personal finance book, but I just drop references to things. and literally but like copy editor was like you need to explain this and I'm like no We're playing by Gilmore Girls rules. If you don't get the reference you either need to Google it or you gotta move on Yeah, sure. Oh, I think that that's brilliant I did I think I over explained my references But I I did feel that I had as many as I wanted. Like it was like Parks and Rec, Ocean's Eleven. What?

We're the same person. I'm sorry. Okay, first of all, Ocean's Eleven and anybody who knows me knows this. I have seen, I watched that movie every six weeks. Every six weeks. I've seen the movie 50 times. Quote Danny Ocean, because I think that the dating world

is like the date, like I call it the dating casino because it's so loud. It's a labyrinth built to keep you trapped in. And so like that begins chapter one is the Danny Ocean. Anyway, we have a lot in common. We must take this offline. Does he make you laugh? He doesn't make me want to cry.

Wow. Wow. Let's take a moment for that Julia Roberts. Which I did have a moment in the book that was taken out that was like, Julia Roberts is the most stunning damsel in distress in the whole movie. The only woman who has lines. Literally the only woman who has lines in the entire film. I joke the feminism leaves my body. James Bond in Ocean's 11. I'm sorry, I didn't need an Ocean's 8. I'm good. I'm good. Keep the bros. I'm good. Keep the Rusty. I know it's a hot take. I know. And then James Bond, I'm like, I don't need character arcs. I don't need you being a father. I need you being a daddy. And I need you to like, I, it's the most controversial opinion I have,

which is like, I need you out here like having casual sex, shooting big guns. Oh, of course. She was so hot in Ocean's 8. No, I think Ocean's 8 was a great movie and it was fantastic. And I just jokingly say that. No, you can't. No, go ahead. Okay.

All right. I just say I love Ocean's 11. I think it's the perfect movie. No notes. Absolutely none. I love that movie so much. It is the comfort of all comfort movies and I love that's Eleven. I think it's the perfect movie. No notes. Absolutely none. I love that movie. So it is the comfort of all comfort movies. And I love that movie so much. Agree. I agree. I listened to the soundtrack writing my book. Like I had a playlist and it was the majority.

It was just Ocean's Eleven soundtrack. That's the only reason the book got done. Mine was the holiday. The holiday was all that on repeat like... yeah, I get that. I went through a Nancy Meyers kick earlier this year, because I hadn't seen the holiday until last year. I know. Wow. I know. That was you were behind. But I grew up with like, Parent Trap was my favorite. Like I loved Nancy Meyers, Parent Trap. And then Father of the Bride and Father of the Bride 2 are like Dunlap family movies. Yeah. Okay, I know we have other things to talk about I can say here. Oh, what team are we on on Gilmore Girls? I literally ran the Gilmore Girls Fan Fest debate on this topic in Kent, Connecticut.

Okay, I'm talking about how we're perfect. We're basically the same person. This will determine whether we're the same person or not. Okay, well, I think that there's no perfect choice, just because that I shouldn't have to be pigeonholed to choose is my feminist answer because jewelry needs to come into her own. Jess, are you a Logan? Nope. Oh, you're a Jess.

I am all the way. I am so Jess Mariano. I did do a rewatch recently. I didn't hate Logan as much as I did. I remember growing up and I hated Logan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he's super hot. But when Jess comes in with those distiller tickets at like 11pm after like 10pm coming

in late, hasn't planned a date. When he's like deciding whether or not to smoke that cigarette, I'm like, oh my god. Why did you drop out a girl? Like I know, I'm sorry. And also Milovin Tamilia has been like my celebrity crush forever. No, team Jess. Sorry, team Jess, all the way. Oh my god. All the way. Well, in our other podcast, feminist deep dive on Gilmore Girls,

we dive into all that, so tune in listeners. I love it. Okay, happy to have you on the show. This is so fun. Yes, makes me so happy. Okay, so you went from working in advocacy and nonprofit to then chasing your musical theater dreams to becoming a matchmaker,

and now you're a feminist dating coach. So tell me everything. How did that happen? Well, let's do the abridged version. My heart was always like performing in high school, middle school, high school, like performance and advocacy. So I was like out there starting a nonprofit in high school for you know survivors of sex trafficking in Alabama, going to Montgomery and like advocating for legislation of which the state of Alabama at that time

didn't have any legislation around human trafficking. They were relying only on the federal law. So I was like very much put into camps, advocacy and also performance. And when I didn't get into my dream musical theater school, which was Elon at the time, I thought, OK, this is my redirection. I'm going to go all in on international relations

and got to dive into the world of nonprofit advocacy in the US, which is a deeply flawed place because of the way capitalism has screwed up how we care for one another, right? So nonprofit world, like if you are listening and you work for a nonprofit, God bless you. Like it is such tough work, not paid enough, it is very difficult. So when I burnt out of that world, after a couple years inside of it, I was like, oh maybe this is my redirection back to my dream of performance. And so no friends, no money, my redirection back to my dream of performance.

And so no friends, no money, quit my job, moved to New York, found a job at a church where I could live there in exchange for my rent, iconic, in Hell's Kitchen. And I had 50 side hustles. I was a nanny. I was a receptionist. I also was a balloon hat maker at Senor Frogs in Times Square. I could make a penis hat coming into a pair of lips as a hat. I can text you the picture after.

Wow. Do you still have that skill? Is that under special skills on your resume? I, well, thank God I run my own business. I don't need a resume anymore. No, sorry, on your theater resume. Yeah. Like that would have been special skills.

Oh, at the time. Oh, 100%. At the time. Yes. I thought you were talking about today. I definitely can. I could go make a quick buck on the corner shilling some balloon hats and I'm so grateful I don't need to anymore. But so I needed another side hustle because I didn't have much money at all. I remember like I was so poor at the time for me. I know that I wasn't. I held a ton of privilege living where I did, doing what I did. But I remember putting the tiny $1 bill tips that I got at the Bank of America. They were all tattered and ripped and sliding them into the slot and praying that they weren't ripped enough

to not go through. Anyway, I heard through The Grapevine that a matchmaking company was hiring. And I, as a late bloomer who didn't have much romantic experience outside of my high school boyfriend who dumped me telling me that I was quote too much, I thought, LOL, how hilarious that I'm going to be like that I imply to be a matchmaker. LOL, that's hilarious. Didn't have any intentions of being in the dating space. Didn't have any intentions of making this my career. However, I got the job. It was sink or swim, not much training.

And I learned that I was really good at it. I was really good at getting beneath the surface of what people wanted and asking deeper questions. My EQ was off the charts. and I started setting up matches. Meanwhile, I was in the worst toxic relationship of my life. I had settled so hard for this guy. I'm at Unbumble. What are you thinking Tori?

I see your face and I'm like, I'm just so curious. Oh, I mean, you're describing my life, but keep going. You're doing great. Okay. Well, that's the thing that's great about this book is that like, there are so many, all of us, you know, like, who are feminists, who are taught that we were too much growing up. Like, all of this is why I have a job now, you know, like because this is so relatable. So I was in this relationship with this guy who like wanted to be with me and I thought that was enough. And I also fell in love with him.

And I also was like, oh, I'm too much. So nobody else is going to want to be with me. So I've got to make this work. Meanwhile, my parents were getting a divorce at the same time. And I saw, I just grew up seeing how much work women around me were having to do in their romantic relationships to make them work. And so I thought, well, that's just normal. And I was miserable and I would cry on his bathroom floor and then five minutes later take a matchmaking

client call saying like, you deserve so much more, let's get you out on some great dates. And it was so painful to be in that place and the cognitive dissonance was like astounding. And at that point I had started therapy and thank God because she really helped me build the skills to break it off with this person who ultimately was like the worst fit. And when I found the courage to lead that relationship, I looked around and I had gotten really good at matchmaking. I became the third most successful out of 160 at that national firm. But I saw that matchmaking was this like first state level solution. And while it was working for some people,

I knew that I wanted something much deeper than a first date because I didn't trust myself to never settle again. I was like, how do I never settle again? My therapist hadn't dated in 30 years, right? Besides helping me break up with that person and build some like deep skills to maybe trust myself more. She didn't know what to tell me with dating. Then I looked to my friends and family who were like,

why don't you just swipe more? Why don't we make over your dating profile? Why don't you, why don't we make over your dating profile? Why don't, why don't you just get on the other app? That's the dating casino. The loud advice from everybody around you who's found love, who randomly landed in a relationship telling you what you should do. And I was like, that's not going to work. I also had professionally swiped on all the dating apps so I knew their bullshit and I knew that dating apps were not the answer. So I started becoming my own first client.

I started uncovering the like, you're too much belief and started learning the skill of self-compassion. I started uncovering my own preferences beneath the surface of my checklist that got me in that good on paper, bad relationship before. And I found out what essence I was looking for, and I started building skills to be more playful and messy and self-trusting in my dating life. And that led to me flirtily giving my number to waiters and having more fun and feeling free in my dating life, which then ultimately led me to meet the love of my life IRL, who

I may not have said yes or swiped yes to him had I not done this deeper work on my own preferences. So I was like, oh, this is working. And I went to my matchmaking clients and I started coaching them with these same tools, like secretly, and they started to find better dates for themselves than I or anybody else could find for them. And so about seven years ago, I broke up with matchmaking,

and I started my company, DateBrazin, to be the feminist answer to, how do I make dating feel better? How do I actually make it joyful? How can I meet the right partner on my terms without settling or compromising? And I've since gotten to coach hundreds of people around the world with these tools

and have written the book on the subject called Thank You More, Please, which came out on June 11th. And I'm so, so proud of it. And I know it's going to change people's whole fucking lives. And thank you for coming. Appreciate you. That was great. No, I plus a thousand to all of that. Oh my God. You said so many things. We have other questions and I want to get into them. But what you said, I think that is so important. So I met my now partner, IRL as well. I met him at a bar, sat down next to him, like after dating apps for years and years and years and had some success and some not so success on the dating apps. And I was the very similar person where everybody was like, you'll find somebody eventually and here's all of the advice and like, Oh, I'll introduce you to

this person that we, I was just like, okay. And I honestly, what you said, I'm trying to remember what exactly it was you said, but it sparked something of what I had to realize in my own life about dating, which is like, I had so much expectation for like what the relationship should be. I grew up Catholic. It was like, no, you date to find the relationship. Anything that you immediately realize this person's not interested in a relationship, don't waste your time on that. And I actually went through my previous partner before I met my current one. We both knew kind of going in that this probably wasn't going to last, but I fell madly in love with this person. It was one of the most incredible like experiences my entire life, also devastating when it ended. But I like was so glad it happened

because it allowed me to realize that I would put too much weight too early on something. And then I also would just like put blinders on of like, okay, if you don't also want a relationship and I, as soon as I let go of expectations, I had my fun little like horror the whole phase where I was just like out great, like, you know, just giving giving my number to random men on the subway, like going and putting my hinge location in London just to like feel fun and flirty. and giving my number to random men on the subway, like going and putting my hinge location in London, just to like feel fun and flirty. And it was just like, there was no expectations.

Did that for a while, actually had fun with it, and then met my partner just because I wasn't, I don't know, it worked for me to not have all of the like, I need to find their relationship and the one, and just be like, you know what? I'm just gonna have some fun for a while. I don't know. Tori, can I break down what you did?

Yeah, talk to me. Can I break it down? Cause that's what I talk about in chapter seven, which is dating in person with main character energy. Main character energy is a skillset. It's not like Tori has it and you don't, right? It's not like I have it and you don't. It is a teachable, learnable,

practicable skillset that is three things that you did in so much like in heaps. Gave yourself permission. Yeah. Right. You gave yourself permission to like do whatever the fuck you wanted. Want what you wanted. Have more fun. Play around get kind of messy. Love that. Self-trust. You trusted yourself that like I'm going to try shit and it's going to be okay. Yeah. Why? Because I have my own back, I would imagine. Yeah. And the third step of main character energy is massive messy action. And so that's what main character energy is what leads to successful IRL dating, successful dating, successful life, I think, like fulfilling life.

But I just wanted to mention like you did exactly what I hope everybody does, which is those three things, permission, self-trust, and massive messy action. No, I love that. Yeah, I was just, it was like, it felt so serious for me. And then as soon as I like let go of the seriousness of it and was just like, let's try to find kind people who I have chemistry with, who like, okay, I don't have to see the next 10 years together. We can just see where things are going. And even in my relationship, like normal,

I shouldn't say even normal Tory, early Tory would have been like, okay, we're going to lock this down after five dates, and we're going to get in a relationship. And I purposefully, we dated for like, six months until we had the like official, we're dating no one else conversation. And I did that on purpose so that I wasn't putting all of my eggs in this basket too early before the basket had like, I don't know, this metaphor doesn't work, but before the basket had been fully weaved, I didn't want all of the eggs in it. Right. Yeah, I love that. Anyway, yeah, I just, I love,

I love asking people out publicly. It's so fun. So many women feel embarrassed by it. I think it's exhilarating. It feels like you're getting on a roller coaster. Like, I don't know, I love it. I think it's fun. And just like not having expectations for me

is what really unlocked a lot of stuff. I think that's so powerful. And I think that the skill that people need to embody to be able to ask people a lot in person is the skill of shame resilience. It sounds so not sexy, but it sounds like because you love that thrill, it sounds like you have a really high shame resilience set of skills. Because people fear rejection, like they fear death, because when we lived in caves, rejection did mean death. And so, you know, like people fear making the first move or asking somebody out IRL. But if you have the skill of I'm willing to feel anything to be with you, with yourself, that like self compassion, that that neutralizes the feeling of shame or helps it pass faster, then you become unstoppable like literally unstoppable in your love life and everywhere.

I had to hype myself up every time like let's be real like the knees weak arm sweaty like that was it every time. But every I had to yeah it was like I had to pep talk myself and say, okay, they say no fine You're gonna hearts gonna hammer for the next five minutes after and that's okay, but what's the worst they can say? No, I I'm dating somebody already or no, I'm not interested. Great. Okay. Yeah, and I wouldn't do it for the other person I would do it for me. I would do it for the like confidence. It gave me I my outcome or like Success was not in their answer. It was success was I did it. And it was like cool. So good. Well, and that's like what's in your control. Yeah, reframing. You were reframing to what's in your control instead of what I hear so many people doing, which is like,

I've never been asked out in person. So that means people must not like me. So that means I must, I probably shouldn't try because people have already told me that they don't like me, right? Instead of reframing to like, what if I was in control of my own experience and my own interpretation of these scenarios? And like, literally, it doesn't matter. Let's go be messy and playful and try things. If you're willing to feel awkward, you become unstoppable. And I love my partner and my partner loves me, but we've had a conversation after I did the Hey, hand me your phone after we were done talking and type my number in and I go, would you have asked me and he goes, probably not. And I'm like, okay, interesting. So like,

he was he was just he's like, I hadn't been on a date in two and a half years. I was not looking for numbers. I didn't want to assume and I'm like, okay, so this might not have happened had I not been the one to be like, give me your phone, I'll type in my number and we can text. Nicole Zake Okay. This is why I hate the if he wanted to, he would advice. I hate it. Lauren Ruffin Me too. Nicole Zake Because- Lauren Ruffin Sometimes they can't. Sometimes they don't have the capacity. Oh, I- Nicole Zake Or sometimes they're just distracted and like doing something else and you saying one thing

pivots their attention or like pivots their way. And I think that the reasoning behind that advice, it's very similar to the like decent or men conversation, which I think is important to have for a lot of reasons, both and I think that unnecessary emotional labor has been heaved upon women and people socialized as women in all scenarios. And so I think the intention of the, if you wanted to, he would, or the, like, the intention of that advice is to, I think originally unload some of that emotional labor, both and I also think that it comes from this place of like, prove to me that you're interested, which is putting the relationship already out on kind of an unequal footing, putting a lot of weight on their response, their behavior.

And instead, I do think that it's about decentering the people who are wrong for you, right? Instead of saying like, oh, well, that person did that and he broke up with me and so I shouldn't try again. Decenter the people who were wrong for you and then focus on co-creation. Co-creation is what you did at the bar. You had a conversation, you gave your number and your now partner probably came back with like questions,

thoughts, conversation. It wasn't all on you. The emotional labor wasn't all on you. So it's not just if he wanted to be would it's a co-creation. I gave him my number and then whether he texted me or not, that was up to him. But a relationship wouldn't have started if he hadn't come back with something. So it is that like both like equal effort that comes in that I think if he wanted to, he would, leaves out of the equation. One of the things people ask me

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The Financial Feminist Podcast is sponsored by ADT. ADT spends all of their seconds helping protect all of yours because a lot can happen in a second. Like one second your baby can't walk and then suddenly they can. One second you're happily single and the next second you meet somebody next to you at a bar. Real thing that happened to me. Or maybe one second you have a business idea that seems like a total pipe dream and then

suddenly it's a multi-million dollar business with a podcast and a book. And when it comes to your home, one second you feel safe and the next even if something does happen, you still feel safe thanks to ADT. After all ADT is America's most trusted name in home security because when every second counts count on ADT. Visit ADT.com today or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP. My other big issue with, if he wanted to, he would, just implies the like Disney prints.

I literally was watching Bridgerton just before I jumped on with you. The new, the new part two. Don't say anything. I won't. But the romance version of what we're told as women, especially if you're dating men or you know, interested in men, is it's the like, well, if he wanted to, he would he do all of these things and he'd know exactly what to say. And it's like, no, that's completely unreasonable. Like, if I expect to be loved a certain way,

I need to tell you that that is my expectation and give you the handbook. Now, if you throw away the handbook that's on you, if you choose not to consult the handbook that's on you, but it's not on you to read my mind about what I want. So I think a lot of social media is like, yeah, if you wanted to, he would. Really, to them, it means, well, he should just know that this is how I want to be loved or how I want to receive affection. And it's like, no, every single person's different. Right, right. Well, in my experience with Chris, my now husband, he asked me out. I wasn't ready. I was still healing from that relationship that ended. And I said, no, I was like, Hey, I can't, he wanted to text and be cute, like kind of get to

know each other over text. And I literally said, like, I can't talk to you. Like I, I know you have a crush on me. I think you're cute, but I can't talk to you. And I set that boundary and we didn't talk. We just like hung out in a group twice after that in the next couple of months. And then once I felt like, oh shit, this man is someone that I wanna get to know more and I feel that it's right now, I asked him out. And he responded like, yes.

And so I do think that it's that co-creation, not muscling, not doing all of the emotional labor. It's that co-creation, not muscling, not doing all of the emotional labor. It's that co-creation. Okay. I've not asked you any of the questions on here. So, okay. You've shared that the way we date is in the patriarchal dark ages. What are some of the glaring examples of that?

Okay. Telling women and people socialize as women that they're being too picky. Picky is just pick with a Y at the end. Literally vilifying people for having agency in their desires. Yeah. Yeah, standards. So I do think that there's like people who might go toward rigidity in order to self-protect. That's not what I'm talking about with picky.

Picky is wanting what you want. Another example is the settling pressure. I grew up in the deep south where I saw that a woman's worth was deeply tied to her relationship status of the cisgender man. And so I saw that single women were treated as literal less than human beings because they weren't coupled. And imagine what that implicit and explicit pressure does to our nervous systems over time. Imagine what that does to our brains over time, that implicit and explicit pressure, the pressure from your mom at the holidays, getting the tiny shitty single twin blow up

mattress on the floor while your married sister takes the bedroom. Think about the level of pressure that single women are under all the time to be coupled up in order to be more desirable to people around them, more worthy or whole or what the fuck ever. And to get conspiratorial for a second, let's go there Tori. If we think about the declining birth rate in our country and world, which I don't have an opinion on what the fuck, like I don't have it. I don't know. But I do know that because of the declining birth rate, it is in the best interest of people from the top to pressure folks, specifically women, specifically, you know, people who

can birth humans to settle down pretty quickly and make babies. And immediately start pumping them out. Yeah. So we can have more labor for the workforce. Yeah. Right. So if we think about like top down, where is this pressure coming from? It's not just coming from the church.

It's not just coming from, I was raised evangelical Christian, like forget about it. You know what I'm saying? It's coming from all of these different places, which is why dating advice, I think so often focuses on helping women settle. Instead of helping women and people socialize as women thrive in their love lives, thrive and settle proof every inch of their lives, want more because wanting what you want is revolutionary and it's breaking legacies of women who had to accept less. If we think about this year was the 50th anniversary of when a woman could get a credit card without her husband's permission. So it's not very

recent that women didn't have to settle in a marriage, whether or not it was a good marriage, settle for economic security and potentially freedom. So that's how the dating world is still stuck in the patriarchal dark ages and why I wrote my book and why I started my company and why I get to help people settle, prove their love lives every single day and learn how to take up more space because this shit is deeper than just dating. That's why I love doing this show because everything you just said is everything we

talk about here and everything I discussed in my work and it's not a conspiracy conspiracy. It's not a no, you know, it's so true. No, because I talk about all the time like money is as a form of control. Money is power, right? And we want to talk about yeah, I quote that stat in my book, 1974 was the first year a woman could have a credit card in her own name. A business loan, I think, came eight, ten years after that. It was the 80s. So it's like, yeah, marriage was a financial decision more than anything else, right?

That's why we had dowries and sometimes still do. It's why we like, it's not, it's not been about compatibility and about healthy relationships. It's been totally patriarchal, all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So are you noticing this patriarchal influence across the spectrum for both obviously hetero relationships, but also queer relationships too? Or is it mostly just women who date men? Yeah. So for self-disclosure purposes, I am with a cisgender man in a straight presenting relationship. I'm queer, I'm bi. I didn't have a ton of lived experience dating women

because I came out and shortly after met Chris and we're monogamous. So I like to share all of that information to share that I do have a lot of queer clients and I do think that the patriarchy fucks us all up. And I do think that even like for men, the patriarchy has fucked up men too, like toxic masculinity has impacted their ability to ask for emotional support or connect with loved ones or friends, and that impacts their well-being and their ability to be in healthy relationships too.

So I think that across the board, yes, there are expectations, like talking specifically about queer women and femmes that I've worked with, expectations that they place on themselves to perform a certain way, to care give at a certain level, to emotionally burden themselves, like queer women and straight women alike, emotionally burden themselves with most of the emotional labor in a relationship because of how they were taught to survive

as people pleasers in order to belong in their family units, in order to belong at work potentially. So absolutely, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean, patriarchy fucks us all up, and we've said that many times in the show too, and regardless of your gender identity. Yeah, regardless, the intersectionality of it all also is something that I really wanted to honor in the book

that like patriarchy, white supremacy, homophobia, transphobia is all working together in a hot soup of awful to create a dating world that is difficult for everyone, especially people who hold marginalized identities, especially people of color, women of color, black women. It is hard. And that's why I have a job because we're not taught how to advocate for our own needs. We're not taught how to even acknowledge what we want without it feeling threatening or feeling scary.

And so like even starting there, like giving yourself permission and like learning your own essence based preferences and then asking for what you want the first time, like that baby step work leads to massive freedom down the road. You've mentioned already in our conversation, but I know a lot of your book is about this feeling of self-trust for women or getting to a point where women do trust themselves. I know from literally talking with the millions of people in our community, talking with other women friends, it's not that we don't want to trust ourselves, it's that patriarchy and the systems that exist have basically, they've gaslit us into not trusting our own intuition and not respecting our own needs and not even being able to hear

sometimes our own intuition because everything's just too loud. So what does building self-trust look like in a practical way? Like how can women specifically build self-trust look like in a practical way? Like how can women specifically build self-trust and how can we build self-trust when it comes to dating? Yeah, so self-trust is, I mean, after my terrible toxic relationship didn't test myself at all. I was like, I thought I trusted myself then

when I got in that relationship. I thought I had self-trust. So I think that it's important. I talked to so many people who've been in bad relationships, and they say the same things. And I think it's important right now, whoever's listening, to stop using your relationship history as a weapon against yourself moving forward. Yes, I made decisions that I wouldn't make again. Yes, you might have made decisions that you wouldn't make again.

Both and how about that's humanity? How about it's okay to learn something new? And so I think that's just first base level that it's okay to messily, imperfectly learn something new. And self-trust is a skill that is a practicable, learnable skill. And I quote Brené Brown in the book from Darren Greatley talking about how trust with other people is built in marbles, like tiny marbles added to a jar.

And self-trust is the same thing. It's tiny choices, choice by choice, moment by moment. One of my clients the other day asked like this same question, practically how? And I was like, just for one day, listen to yourself and go to the bathroom exactly when you feel the desire to literally that tiny step can be like, okay, instead of waiting for that meeting to pass where I'm crossing my legs because I have to pee so fucking bad. Why don't

I actually pause my zoom, say I need to step away for a moment, and I'm going to go use the restroom. The amount of times I'm like, zoom say I need to step away for a moment and I'm gonna go use the restroom The amount of times I'm like, okay, you get to go to the bathroom when you finish this email Like it's like earned like we have to earn a little pee. I know well there it is Right like the idea that we have to hurt which is those moments where we think that we owe our computer something or that it proves something about us that we're going to hold our key for another hour to get more work out for that, right? The self-control, right?

But what's happening in the conversation about self-control is a fundamental lack of self-compassion. Because if we just look at ourselves as soft, squishy human beings who need things sometimes, using the P example, if I go to the bathroom exactly, I went to the bathroom like five minutes before this recording. I do it before every meeting because I really like it's part of my type A personality, number one. Number two, it's a gift that I'm giving myself to listen to my body and to trust my body's instincts. And then in this scenario, if you're trying to learn self-trust, you could say, hey, Lily, I trusted myself just then. Good

job. Right? Acknowledging it. That's what the thank you more please is about. The title of my book, it's like, thank you more please. Thank you moment where I listened to myself more please. And it can go for external things things too like seeing a cutie exiting a therapy office Thank you more, please having a flirty conversation with your barista. Thank you more Please to build evidence that what you want exists same same with building evidence that I can build self-trust You've got to notice the small steps and then in terms of dating I really recommend people do a date feedback system that I teach inside of the book, where after the date, I have a spreadsheet that all of my clients use

and they literally, it's not about being super rigid, okay? It's about noticing, because what's happening after a date is your hormones are raging, you have a lot of feelings, and you probably won't remember the details. And so putting down on a piece of paper, what questions did they ask me?

What made me come alive in the conversation? What's my most beautiful and true next step? Allows you to start building self-trust after dates by tuning in with your dating intuition. So I think it's about those small baby steps to then it's about the like small tiles that make up the mosaic of self-trust. What you said at the beginning too, a lot of people, which is very sweet, asked me like, I want to be confident like you. How did you get to be confident? Because I made fucking stupid mistakes that I would not make now. And I do not blame myself at all. Like I look back at younger me and I was like, she was doing the best she could with the information she had. That was it. And our audience knows, because I've told this story a lot. My first like serious boyfriend who I thought I was going to marry once told me I was fat on a beach because

his mom told him that she thought I'd be skinnier the first time she met me. And I remember feeling so ashamed and angry and I was 20 years old. I was so distraught and angry and I should have honored myself then and taken myself home. We were in Hawaii. I was away from home. I should have gotten on the next plane. I should have come home, but I didn't. And I still have a choice. I could look back at 20 year old me and be like, you stupid fucking bitch. you should have just got on that plane. It was horrible. And you stayed in that relationship for another two years. And instead I'm like, you know what, I get why she did it. She felt lost. She didn't have the money to get herself back on a plane. She loved him and didn't understand it and had to figure out why and had to understand.

And it's just like, the only reason I have standards now is because they were violated at some point. And then I realized I, I don't like that. So I'm not going to let it happen again. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I have so many of those moments to Tory I like literally, one of them is in my book of like, I was in this bad relationship, we were in love, we went to Paris a couple months into our relationship. And the first night in Paris, I went to Paris a couple months into our relationship. And the first night in Paris, I was like, I'm living my dream, all of this is on a credit card,

I have no money, I'm so excited to be living my passport to Paris fantasy. And he looks at me and is like, and we've decided to be monogamous, we've made a commitment to each other, first adult relationship, first time having sex, like all of these things with him. He looks at me and he's like, Lily, I actually realized that I need to be in an open relationship for this to work and I can't be in a monogamous relationship. And for those listening, I don't hate non-monogamy. If it's

right for you, then it's right for you. No, that's fine. But not in motherfucking Paris. Paris, Helen? Paris? Not after I put 5K onto my credit card for this trip with this man that I was in love with. And so in that moment, I think back and I wish that I had looked at him and really just listened to my body and discerned, actually actually if something feels like your body is on fire from the inside out it's actually wrong for you, Lily. And so you shouldn't have to say yes. And I wish I'd stood up and like had a little solo Paris and like Paris trip. Yeah, instead I stayed for a year. You know, so I totally get that and I felt regret over that moment

and other moments in my journey, both and in my more compassionate moments, I can say what you just said, which is like, I did the literally the best I could based on what I knew at the time. And that doesn't mean that I'm not trustworthy now. No, and I learned like sometimes you realize your bound what your boundaries are because they get crossed and you go, actually, that didn't feel good. So that is a boundary or that is something that I'm not going to have that happen again. And again, talking about my handbook before, like I have told this story to every partner I've dated in the future and not like any of them would,

but I'm like, I don't want comments about my body unless they're nothing but positive. And anything even close to that is going to be triggering for me because of this experience that happened in the past. So yeah, you just learn what treatment you will or won't accept because sometimes you've accepted it and hated it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh boy. Anyway, gotta love that. Gotta love that story. Okay. This quote from your book, quote, if the patriarchy is interested in keeping power in the hands of the powerful, then it's in its best interest for women to settle. Oh, oh, okay. So speaking of stupid boyfriends, what does settling look like for your clients?

Yeah. And how can we fucking stop settling in our lives? Settling looks like a couple different things. Settling can look like before you ever meet somebody. Settling for a shitty feeling dating life is a version of settling. Dating is a microcosm of our well-being. It's every hope, joy, dream, fear, insecurity, desire that we have as humans. You owe it to yourself and your nervous system to figure out how to pursue your desire more joyfully. Not because of anybody else, but just for yourself. This gets to be, dating gets to be an act of agency and joy and power. Okay, so don't small settle for a shitty feeling dating life that has 15 dating apps

and a ton of dates playing the numbers game or maybe you're settling by not trying at all, right? Like under-functioning by saying like, I don't need anything when actually you have a desire. It's okay. I think there's a myth wafting around some feminist circles that says wanting a relationship makes you weak or pathetic or makes you less of a feminist. And I do think that it's about acknowledging your desire and saying like, yeah, I believe you. It's okay.

It's good to want what you want. It's okay to want what you want. Like that's not it. It's a both and I'm a feminist and I want the right partner, not I'm either a feminist and I don't need anybody or I want a partner and I am a trad wife, right? It's like no, it's a it's a I get to want what I want. Yeah Another version of settling is like the good enough Good on paper. I don't know what's wrong, but I don't feel good in this relationship

But I guess like that's okay because it's normal No the right relationship should feel supportive and normal? No. The right relationship should feel supportive and easeful and you should feel, you get to feel how you want to feel, you get to feel held and seen and validated and supported. That exists. And if you haven't seen that what you want exists, then it's time to do a thank you more please challenge in your own life and in the world of looking for moments where you have felt that way with a partner or a friend. You have felt seen held say thank you more please like it okay it does exist it might exist more if I keep looking for

it more. I have a theory about that because we've talked about the I call it the like head hit your pillow at night before you go to bed and you're like, something's not right, but you stay. I think we as human beings, especially your, you know, your example of the caveman, which I bring up all the time too, it's comfortable. Yeah, it's comfortable. Yeah, it's not risky. It's it doesn't, it doesn't make you feel good. It doesn't make you feel happy. But it big scary world out there. It's easier to stay in something that you might not like, but you know what it is, then go out there to big, scary world that is a berry bush that you haven't eaten before and is a cave that could get you killed. So I'm going to stay

in my cave. I'm going to eat from this one berry bush that I know isn't poisonous. I don't love my life, but it's too scary to think of other things. And couple that with, I think, the feeling of unworthiness. Like, I'm not, this is fine. I'm not worthy of more than this. I'm not, you know, I'm not worthy of a partner who loves me in this way. I'm not worthy of the job. I'm not worthy of this, because other people can have that. It's not for me, though. So I feel like it's that comfort, it's that homeostasis where we get comfortable in our lives. And I don't mean safe. I mean, like just doing the same thing over and over and over again. Not happy, but also because we don't believe we're worthy of anything more than that. Can I say something that feels like a hot take? Sure. We love hot takes. It's like a hot take. Sure.

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I'm going to say this and I'm going to back it up with a lot of thoughts that are going to make you feel amazing, but first it's going to be like, huh? You're not special. Okay? If you say to me, I'm uniquely unqualified, I'm uniquely broken, I'm uniquely the one who doesn't get what she wants, I'm the one who can't seem to figure it out and it's not going to be possible, so I better just hole up in my house with five cats and that's totally fine but I'm afraid of cats I'm afraid they're gonna eat me and I want you to go outside and like experience

life and and have that you're not I've seen so many people so many people who have worked with me who've listened to my free podcast who have read my book who have felt that way who have felt like I'm uniquely bad at this, I'm uniquely unqualified, I'm uniquely unworthy, who all they needed was community with people who got what they were going through and self-compassion and some action steps. Literally that's all you need to start getting more of what you want. And if you don't believe me,

then you can borrow some of my belief. I've seen hundreds of people get in the best fucking relationships of their lives and create not only that, but because I think the relationship is the bonus, right? I think the winning results, the thing that we're in control of is how you live your best freaking life possible and how you take up more space in this world.

And then other bonus results flow from that work, like getting bigger promotions, making more money, going on more epic trips, moving to the place you always want to go. Liking yourself more. Liking yourself more, having more like fucking amazing sex. Like all of these are the bonus results of trusting yourself enough to pursue your desire and learning those things of like trust, permission, and massive messy action. I've heard it phrased as like, how egotistical is that? To be like, I'm the problem. It's me. Everything's wrong with me. I'm not special. I'm not worthy. And I'm like, well, it can

be very easy to think that in your love life if you're the only single friend in your friend group and everybody else is married. It's very valid. So that's why... Yeah. No, but I'm echoing what you said of like, yeah, this feeling of like, I'm not special, I can't do it. And I'm like, that is entirely... It's actually weirdly egotistical. It's like, I don't deserve love. Why do you not deserve love, bitch?

Like, I'm sorry. Why do you, why are you of all people, you believe everybody else deserves love. Why do you believe that you can't, you don't get it? Because of patriarchal conditioning. Of course. We get it. We get it. Of course.

It all drains lead to the ocean that is patriarchy. So yeah. But especially if you're the only single friend, that's right. It all drains lead to the ocean that is patriarchy. So yeah. But especially if you're the only single friend, that's rough. And that's why all of my programs are like group coaching programs. That's why I like, we do this in community because community and belonging is inherently subtle proofing. Because when you see that you're not alone and other people are doing this with you and

that you're not like weird for wanting something or weird for trying, you do more epic shit. And so I think that, and then if you're struggling and you're like, it's me, I'm the problem, this is me, they're talking about, then I think a baby step could be just doing a simple thank you more please challenge. What do you want and how can you go out in the world this week and look for tiny, tiny slivers of evidence

that what you want exists, that you might be exactly who somebody would want to be with and say, thank you more please to every sliver of evidence to build that active bank of evidence that what you want exists and it is possible for you. A lot of what you're talking about is how we're speaking to ourselves, which I really, really appreciate, how do we start redirecting the thought that is like, Oh, I'm out of this bar and no one's asked me out. Therefore, I'm unlovable. How do we stop that? Or anything like that? Oh, you know, I, I'm swiping on

the apps and like, everybody's a piece of shit today. So it must be me. Like, how do we redirect that and start rewriting that script in our head? Great question. The way that we don't do that is with toxic positivity. So that I see most people who want to reframe or like rephrase or whatever in their brain brain, say like, no, it is possible. No, you're wrong. Shut up brain.

Like, and that I call that the thought seesaw. Like on one hand, you have have like I'm not attractive. Nobody wants to be with me. And on the other hand, you have, yes, I am. Yes, they will. It's the aggressive opposite that I think we're taught helps. But it's sort of like putting a new coat of paint over a wall that is crumbling. Like toxic positivity is like a cheap plastic band-aid. It'll fall

off the minute you're in hot water. And so the way that you actively in an evidence-based way reframe that thought is by acknowledging that it's a thought, not a fact first. Acknowledge it. Like it's a sentence in my brain, hey thought, okay, hey thought. Like you think that using the bar example, like, okay, nobody's come up to us and we're having the thought, okay, hey thought, like you think that using the bar example, like, okay, nobody's come up to us and we're having the thought, that means that it's not possible and that, you know, nobody wants to be with us. Okay, we're having that thought. Then self-compassion. Self-compassion isn't just a fluffy phrase, it is a proven resource in a 2014 study out of Stanford that found that self-compassion reduces cortisol and increases resilience. Two things that you

definitely need to do anything epic and attract anything that you want in this life. Self-compassion in that moment in the bar could sound like, gosh, it really sucks to feel this way. I'm here for you. Of course you feel this way. Of course you want somebody to approach you. That sounds really normal and understandable. And I also hear you're having hard thoughts like, oh, I'm here for you. Then once your nervous system has sort of allowed it, you've allowed it to like sort of reset, you can then go to a baby step new thought that uses the starter phrase, it might be possible that it might be true that. So it might be possible that it would feel really good to go up to somebody right now and say hello.

It might be possible that this isn't my night and that's okay. Not every night has to be the hottest night of my life. It might be possible that I haven't met everyone. It might be possible that someone's here that I could make eye contact with. It might be possible that this is just the beginning. It might be possible, like literally those three steps, which is acknowledging thoughts, not facts, practicing self-compassion,

and doing a baby step reframe in the moment to be like, it might be possible that, but you gotta start with the nervous system care first. All of that with practice might only take two minutes. It's not gonna be that deep, but you gotta start practicing because neural pathways, the neural pathway, it's not possible, be that deep, but you got to start practicing because neural pathways, the neural pathway, it's not possible. It's like a well-worn path and building a new neural pathway

is like being in the middle of the jungle with a machete and somebody drops you in the middle and is like, build a new path. And you're like, what? I'm scared. I don't know where to go. And your brain's like, yeah, we're building a new path. It takes practice. It takes effort. It takes coming back. That's why when you go on paths that have been so well trodden over millions of steps, they look like roads because they've been well trodden. You've got to start practicing a new baby step thought to build that neural pathway. LILY KUO You all can't see me.

My head hurts and neck hurts from shaking my head too much. No. Okay. So what you just said, Lily, because I want to, I know my listeners and they're doing the thing in their head where they're like, okay, yeah, a little like, okay, everything's gonna be fine. And the baby talk in your head that's like, I do this all the time. It feels so bizarre. The first time you do it, you feel like you're talking to a child and it feels at first a little condescending where you're like, it's okay, I'm really sorry this is happening to you. And you're like, I'm a big girl. I don't need that. I don't need to do that. You fucking do. Like, I do this with myself all the time. Well,

at least just like the self compassion and the acknowledgement. It really helps me and I've talked about this on the show before is I will journal is two different versions of myself when I'm not doing well is I will do that. Like, I'm really, really scared and I'm really stressed out. Honey, what's going on? I, you know, I'm the one I think of all the time was like, I went to the doctor and the doctor's worried that everything's wrong with me. And I think I have cancer and also brain tumor and everything's good. I'm going to die. That sounds really scary. I'm, I'm, but I'm going to be here with you and I'm not going to leave you and everything's going to be okay." And even that, it sounds so ridiculous when you hear somebody talk about it until you do it and then you realize, oh, this actually helps. Yeah. And just to pull the curtain back

on why self-compassion might feel cheesy or even intolerable for most people. Let me lean closer to the mic. It's because most of our parents didn't know how to help us have and move through big feelings. And using an example of a teacher, you remember when you're on a playground and a friend rejects you, says, you can't play with us and it hurts and you're crying. And there are two teachers. The first teacher comes over and is like, what happened? Tell me what happened. Why are you crying? What's going on?

Okay. What's going on? Okay. That doesn't sound that bad. Okay. It's okay. Brush it off. Brush it off.

Get back. Go back to play. You'll feel better if you just... As Taylor Tomlinson's dad says, eat some peanut butter, you'll feel better. Have you seen her sketch about this? No, but this is very, that's very true. She basically in high school goes to her dad and she's like, dad, I think I'm depressed. He's like, you need some protein, eat some peanut butter.

Oh my God. But like, didn't a lot of our parents do that? I know that. My mom, bless her, I'll call her and be like, I'm not doing well today. She's like, have you pooped? Have you gone on a walk? Go on a walk. Oh my God.

Go on a walk, everything will be okay. Well, it's that, it's that like, nobody teaches this vocabulary of how to effectively care for our feelings and move through them. And the fixing it, I wanna fix it, cause my mom wants her baby's pain to go away, I get it. But like, I'm not calling you mom for a solution, I'm calling you so that you can hear me that I'm really stressed and upset.

And the only way through that pain is through it, right? So let's think about the other teacher, the teacher who comes over to you when you're crying on the playground and gets down on your level and says like, hey, tell me what's going on, right? And then you as a kid are like, oh, she just rejected me.

She made me feel so sad and called me names. And you might cry more for a second because of the acknowledgement of this moment. But the teacher's like, oh, that really is so painful. I'm sorry, and is there anything else? And you're like, oh, I guess something else, something else, something else. And then the teacher says, that's really hard.

Do you wanna hug? The teacher gives you a hug and the vibe of the hug is, I'll be here as long as you need me to be. What happens then? Inevitably, you will feel better quicker because of the acknowledgement and the care and the I'll be here as long as you need me to be vibe. And you'll hear somebody playing off in the background and you'll want to get out there faster, more authentically. And you'll say, Hey, I'm going to go play. And she'll

be like, Are you sure? I'm here for you. No, I'm ready. I'm ready to go play. Thank you. Bye. Right. You want to be that second teacher to yourself that second version of re parenting that is more caring and and getting on your level so that you can go play faster. That's so brilliant, Lily. That's so smart. You're exactly right. That's so good. Oh, I love it. Okay. I've seen this on social media. Sorry, I've read in a research paper. I saw a video video that, and you say it too, which is basically you can't do the wrong thing to the wrong person. You can't say the wrong thing to the right person.

Yes. Sorry. Thank you. You can't say the wrong thing to the right person. Yes. And to my knowledge, I was the first video that went viral on that. Oh, I love it. Cool. Yes. Okay. So I'm talking to the OG. Okay. I think it's far in so far as I know, you know, on social media, whatever, but I'm pretty confident. And I love that I'm talking to you cause I literally brought this up with somebody yesterday and I'm like the very things about dating that people find disgusting with the wrong person are the very things that they find so great of like, Oh my God, he texts me every morning and he says, good morning, beautiful. And he calls me every day and he wants to

know what I'm doing. And the flip side of that is like, Oh my God, he texts me every fucking day and he texts me right when I get up in the morning. And I'm just like, this is fucking too much, right? It's like, it's the exact same thing, but whether we're into somebody or we're not into somebody. Yeah, so you can't say the wrong thing to the right person was born from my first date with Chris, where I definitely did something that I would not recommend,

which is I talked about my ex for 30 minutes, Tori. Oh, girl. Not great, not great. Not great. I love that matchmaker broke cardinal rule of dating, which is never free of ex. By this point, oh no, I was still a matchmaker, wasn't I? Oh my God. But it was just like, I was still, that was like seven years ago now. So I was like, yep, that was about the time I was breaking up with matchmaking.

But I was on the date and when I talked about my ex, it was from a question of like, how, that was about the time I was breaking up with matchmaking. But I like, I was on the date. And when I talked about my ex, it was from a question of like, how are you doing? And then I just went on this, you know, verbal processing thing. And he made me feel safe. He made me feel seen. He held my hands when they were cold out of the cold November air and like warmed me up. So kind. And he made me feel how I wanted to feel. He was meeting those essence-based preferences. And that's how I know you can't say the wrong thing to the right person. We've been together seven years.

Now, the additional piece to that is that a couple months in, Chris was able to say to me, hey, I was still talking about my ex sometimes. And like not sometimes, like often. He was like, hey, I would love talking about my ex sometimes. And like, not sometimes, like often. He was like, hey, I would love it if we could talk about us and you could process with your therapist or your friends. Like, I love you, I care about you, but like, can you talk about that with somebody else?

Cause I don't really wanna talk about your ex anymore. And the right person will also be able to set boundaries with you. There'll be an adult who can communicate. And so it is, you can't say the wrong thing to the right person and you are uniquely qualified for the right person because that person will know how to advocate for themselves too. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yep. Yep. Just kidding. I'm just going to move on because

yes. You're not a fan of dating apps. Tell me more about that. My first viral video was dating apps are a scam. So I think that with any publicly traded company or any company that is held within a publicly traded company, we've got to keep our eyes wide open. You know what I'm saying? So dating apps have this reputation, I would say less so this year with all of the attention on how they are impacting our brains and how they're addictive. I've been having this conversation for seven years, but I think people are awakening to

that conversation differently than they have in the past few years before this. Dating apps have these multimillion, maybe billion-dollar marketing budgets over the last 12 years that have influenced how we think about dating and how we think about dating apps. For example, hinges designed to be deleted. This marketing message creates this expectation or this feeling of like, oh, they've got my back. Oh, they want me to delete them. Oh, oh, they want. But if we think about what's actually, it's a great marketing message. But if we think about what's actually it's a great marketing message, but if we think about what's actually happening It's a publicly traded company that wants more users to generate more revenue for their shareholders And I don't think business is inherently like a bad thing

However, if we think about the dating apps main objective You know most hinge tender match.com a lot of them are owned by Match Group. Bumble, obviously, is a separate thing. It's a publicly traded company all on its own. Their job is to get more users and keep users on. And that's why I think that from anecdotal evidence and from my own experience and from the data from my clients and people that I've spoken with over the last seven years, dating apps are giving you enough of the good stuff to keep you coming back, but they're not essentially solving the problem that they promised to, which is hinges designed to be deleted. They actually don't want to be deleted. They want

to give you enough of the good stuff to keep you coming back, but not enough to keep you full. That's why I liken them to McDonald's fries. They're like, McDonald's fries are delicious. They are salty, and they're covered in a type of sugar called dextrose. So that they don't fill you up, they just keep you wanting to have more. And so that's why I don't think dating apps are the enemy of one's dating life. But I think that most people are using them and they're being taken advantage of their nervous systems, their brains are being taken advantage of by the addictive features because dating apps were built like slot machines, designed to keep you gamified in the system. And so coming in with an intentional plan,

with boundaries, with a clear profile that asks for exactly what you want, using one dating app 20 minutes a day, that way you can be the CEO of that resource. And dating apps are optional when you have a badass in-person dating life. And that's what I think we need to talk about more, is like, how do we build, like social skills have eroded over the last four plus years, right, for obvious reasons.

And so how can we, how can I help people build up the confidence and social skills necessary to start shooting their shot more, to start joy building more, making new friendships, helping their friends more effectively help set them up? I call that the co-conspirator strategy. I talk about it in chapter seven. But that's why I think dating apps can be really harmful to our well-being and why I think you need a plan and why you need to come in with eyes wide open and also why I think in-person dating is so necessary. Oh, so many thoughts about what you just said. Yeah, I mean, I am willing to admit this. I'm not proud of it. I very much love my partner. I love our relationship. And I sometimes will be

like, you know what, that amount of attention all the time was kind of nice. And like I hated the apps, don't get me wrong, but also I had men telling me I was pretty all the time. And like it was, it's very addicting. It's very addicting. Yep. Yep. It's, it's the, our brains love to see faces.

We have these mirror neurons that are like firing off. And like, that's why in this conversation, even I've like mirrored you, like in body language, like we want to see faces and we want to connect with other human beings, but similar to TikTok, which is like, you know, I'm so grateful to TikTok in some ways, I'm not, you know, it's difficult for my mental health in a lot of other ways. Same.

That app doesn't want you to set boundaries with it? No, no. That's why it doesn't stop scrolling. I couldn't believe I hadn't thought of that. Somebody said that like a year ago on a, I think it was a podcast and I heard it and was like, oh yeah, it never stops. You don't get to the end of TikTok. You don't get to the end of Instagram.

It's not like a book where you shut it and you're like, okay, I'm done. Like there's no end ever. You don't run out of TikToks to watch. Yeah. So I do think that it's important to like acknowledge how your brain might be addicted to the faces, addicted to the matches of the messages, and then reframe to like, okay, what's my core desire?

What's my why for being on this resource? And then how can I really make a plan of intention around my why instead of searching for the app? Because if you look to a dating app to prove to you that what you want is possible, you will consistently be burnt out, exhausted, and overwhelmed. It's like trying to look to TikTok comments

to make me feel better as a human being. It's never gonna work look to TikTok comments to make me feel better as a human being. It's never going to work because there's going to be one positive one and there's going to be one that like rips me apart. And so I can't look to that for my validation. I have to do a deeper dive into like, what's my why and how do I want to navigate this with agency? Same, same with dating apps. With Uber Reserve, good things come to those who plan ahead. Family vacay? Reserve your ride as soon as you book your flights.

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streaming on Disney Plus this Friday. Okay, so I'm putting myself in the listener's shoes. I even know as me, the fact that I met my partner at a bar, like, I know, at least it feels statistically unlikely. It's also, I was not supposed to be at that bar at that time. He was not supposed to be at the bar. I had never been to that bar before. We weren't supposed to be sitting there. Like there were many things where I'm like, it was fake. But I just, I can hear somebody listening to this and being like, okay, but the apps feel like a necessary evil. You're telling me Lily to go and date in person.

Where am I finding people? What am I doing? What is the script? Where am I going? How do I get brave enough to tell me? Yes. Okay. So first caveat, I don't think that dating apps should be thrown out in the trash completely. I think that you got to use them with intention and power. Right. You said 20 minutes a day. I think that's great. Yeah. And especially for queer folks, trans folks, it can literally be unsafe to date in person. And so I do think that like issuing that caveat of like, it may be that if you want to date, you got to be on a dating

app. However, you need to take the power back from that resource by setting your own boundaries by asking deeper questions when you open conversations. My favorite one is what's bringing you joy lately. Okay, in terms of in My favorite one is what's bringing you joy lately. Okay, in terms of in... What was happening? What was happening? Well, you and I are the same goddamn person.

My opening on every dating app was, hi person, what are you most excited about in your life right now? That was my opening line. And then I would get, I still have some screenshots that are like your tits. And I'm like, of course. Bye, bless and release. Truly bye. I'm like, you still have some screenshots that are like your tits. And I'm like, of course. Bye. I don't truly buy.

I'm like, you're not wrong, but also goodbye. Um, no, that's so you and I are the goddamn same person. Okay. Sorry. Keep going. Well, I call them qualifying, disqualifying questions and you were doing that naturally. I did that naturally. I teach it now.

There's in my book, there's literally 50 qualifying, disqualifying questions organized by preference on like what questions you could ask in a conversation to gauge whether or not somebody has your essence-based preferences. I have to ask, let's say we're just down to fuck. What's the question I'm asking? You just wanna hook up. Yeah, what's the question I'm asking somebody?

Oh, well, I don't think that you could just open with like, hey, I'm looking for a great time. What like want to hang out tonight or something like that? Hook up, want to hook up tonight. You could just do that. You could also a couple of messages into the conversation be like, you're really cute. Want to hang out tonight?

Like yeah, okay, make it simple. But you know, don't don't don't make it super complicated. I didn't know if the like qualifying question was, you know, okay, let's keep going. The QD questions depends on what you want, right? Right. So if you're looking for a serious relationship, if you're looking for a hookup, you might ask different things. If you're looking for a hookup that feels more serious, right?

That feels more connected or emotional, you might ask different questions. So let's talk about IRL dating though now, because I have a three-step system that I'm so proud of, and I've taught hundreds of my clients it, and it's so good. Three steps. Number one, joy building. This is just to increase the quality of your fucking life.

Make a list of 10 things that you wanna do this month that sound joyful. Food festivals, meetup groups, pottery classes, dance classes, whatever. I don't care if someone is at the class that you're attracted to. I don't care. That's not the point. The point is going to do something that brings you joy to increase the quality of your life

and to make connections with new people because your job at the joy building activity is to make eye contact with new people, to say hello and to strike up a conversation. That way you are expanding your social circle, which in fact is the function, the only function of a dating app that is within your control is expanding your social circle. So you can do that organically IRL with joy building. Now then you get to step two, which is co-conspiratorship. Co-conspirators. This is how you tap your friends to help you better.

Are you saying this is me? Tori, you're facial expressions. I can't stop. I know. I'm sorry. I keep derailing. No, but my friend Kelsey was my wing woman the night I met my partner and was like talking me up. I was like, she's like, can I show them your Instagram? And I'm like, yeah, that's fine. And she's like, look at this girl. Look at what she

does for a living. She's an author. She's a this and he was just like, Oh my God. And she's like, this is you. And I'm like, yeah, that's me. You know, literally was wing woman in me all night. I went to the bathroom. Apparently that's me. You know, literally was wing woman in me all night. I went to the bathroom. Apparently she talked me up the entire time I was in the bathroom. Oh my God. She's the best co-conspirator. I love that. And she was not drinking. She plays play designated driver. Oh, she gets friend of the century award. So yeah, co-conspirators. Yeah. So for some people, their friends say problematic stuff about their dating lives or their friends just are like, I don't know how to help you, or like, I don't know any single people, right?

And so the co-conspirator strategy is about tap, like identifying one or two people who you're like really close to, who you know wanna love you better, and bringing your essence-based preferences, which is a whole process that I teach in the book of identifying how you wanna feel in the right relationship and coming up with your own root words

that have your own definition, that are like a clear picture of the kind of relationship that you want to be in. It's not a rigid checklist. It's not an open-minded pile of mush. It's how you want to feel. So you bring your essence-based preferences, you bring your qualifying, disqualifying questions to your co-conspirator.

You say, hey, I would like to come up with creative solutions together for my dating life. Here's what I'm looking for. Can we go out once a month or once a week to a bar and you be my wing person? Here's what that would look like ideally. Could you look out for me at your next work conference? Or when you're in the airport, two of my clients were co-conspirators for each other. They lived in different states and one of them was in the airport of the like for work of the other clients city met a guy asked him the questions gauged for the QD questions gauge the essence based preferences asked if he was single set them up and they started dating. That's what I'm talking about with co conspiratorship helping your friends help you shoot your shot. Now, I also in the book have a list of oh no-nos. Tom Haverford's list

of oh no-nos was from the show Parks and Recreation. One of them was, if she doesn't like 90s R&B music, then it's an oh no-no. Oh no-nos for your co-conspirators are when they say things like, I just don't know anybody single. Maybe you're being too picky. Maybe you should just move. There's nobody in our city. I literally script out responses for you to say to your elected co-conspirator to help them love you better and help get them on the co-conspirator track. And so it's about joy building, it's about co-conspiratorship,

and then the third and final is about messy eye contact. This is where you gotta believe that if I'm willing to feel awkward, then I become unstoppable. It's about making, I have a whole in-person dating bingo card in the book at the end of chapter eight, where I list out in a bingo card that I want you, I was like, publisher, I need this page to be blank on the other side so people can rip it out and put it on their fridge. It has literal action steps like make eye contact with three cute humans, then check off the little box and your bingo card and

like like take yourself on a luxurious date. Practice a self-compassion meditation. Ask someone out on a date. Bless and release someone. If you follow those bingo steps, you will have a robust badass in-person dating life. I fucking love it. That's so great. Yay. Okay, everybody, everybody you're listening, you're gonna rewind about eight minutes and you're gonna listen to the whole thing again. And then you're gonna go out and do it and you're gonna buy your book and it's gonna be great. Okay, I have to wrap up even though I can talk to you for the next three hours.

What's the worst dating advice you've ever heard? Like, what's the advice that you hear and you're just like, no, absolutely not. It happens when you least expect it. No, no, no. Oh, no, no. Oh, no, no. It's like vilifying people, specifically women, for having desires, right? Which again, that's about like desires, women's desires make people uncomfortable because

they challenge existing notions of power and order. And it's important for you because your friends who are saying this to you, it happens when you least expect it, they might have settled, unfortunately. I wish the best for all coupled people everywhere, but they might have settled. They might have not have known their own preferences. They may not have known how to advocate for themselves. You know what I'm saying?

So I think that it's important to look at who's giving this advice and like bless and release their opinion of what's necessary to find your incredible partnership because your path is your own and wanting something is exactly what will help you attract it. Similar to like if you were like, I'm looking for a job, but I don't want to too much and I don't wanna be too specific, but so I don't know like any job where they pay me a good salary and people are nice, you're gonna end up in the worst job

that you've ever heard of. Or no job because you're not specific enough for people to understand what you actually want. Whereas, and that's the, it happens when you least expect it sort of advice. And then whereas if you had your essence based preferences, if you had your qualifying disqualifying questions for a job scenario, that would be, I know what the culture is like at the company. I know what salary range I'm going for.

I know exactly what bonus package I want and deserve. I know exactly what I want leadership to focus on and how I want them to treat their employees with dignity and respect every single day. And here's what that looks like. You're so much more likely to find the best fucking job of your life because of those skills and because of that vocabulary and because of your knowledge of your own desire. Same, same with your love life. I will admit I have probably said that to people.

And what I mean by it is it's like, I have, again, back to my original point, it's still tie us up perfectly. I think I put blinders on about like what I wanted, again, back to my original point, is it'll tie us up perfectly. I think I put blinders on about what I wanted, and I probably wouldn't have talked to my partner if I wasn't open to understanding, oh, it did happen when I least expected it. But because I put myself in a position to start talking to people and be open

and to do all of those things, that was not the plan. And so that's probably how I've interpreted it, but I agree, that was not the plan. Like, and so that's probably how I've interpreted it. But I agree, it's often the like, it happens when you least expect it because I've settled. Yeah, one of my friends said, and this is what I finished the book with, this quote, one of my friends said something that I find to be a more helpful alternative to that phrase. When I was in the depths of despair about my love life, I felt

like I was too much. I felt so like ashamed and sad. And she was on the phone with me and she was like, I'm so, A, I'm so sorry you're feeling this way. This really sucks. I've been where you are. I feel you. I'm so sorry you're struggling. And then, so A, validation. just breaking down the mechanics of this incredibly helpful statement. B, I don't know when it's going to happen, Lily, but I have confidence that the right relationship is coming. So that's B, acknowledgement of it's coming. C, I will believe it for you until you can believe it for yourself. And that's

what I wrote in the final chapter of the book is to everyone listening and reading like, I will believe it for you until you can believe it for yourself. Sorry, that's so lovely. That's so lovely. That's what you want. You want somebody to believe it for you until you believe for yourself. Yeah. That's great. Go buy your book, everybody. Thank you for being here. Plug away your book, your work. Go for it. Oh, thank you, Tori. I am so excited for anybody listening to pick up a copy of my new book. Thank you more, please. My desire, I'm going to say my desire, my desire is to be a bestseller and I would love to get this book in as many hands as

possible. And so thank you more, please. A Feminist Guide to Breaking Dumb Dating Rules and Finding Love is out anywhere books are sold and you can go pick up your copy. I also did the audiobook and it's really fucking good. So the ebook is out there as well. You can learn how to work with me at my website, datebrazen.com. And you can listen to all of the 200 plus episodes of the Date Brazen podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts. And I'm also on Instagram and TikTok

at DateBrazen. Thank you. Thank you for your work. I'm so excited. Everybody go read the book. I'm going to go read it. I'm going to have a relationship and I'm still going to go read the book. I'm gonna go read it. I'm in a happy relationship and I'm still gonna go read the book. Amazing. Thank you, Tori. Thank you so much to Lily for joining us. You can buy her book. Thank you more, please. Wherever you get your books. I got a copy. It's great.

It's fantastic. Again, great for you if you are dating, if you are single, but also just great for anybody just trying to stand more in their power and figure out love and what they want. If you're someone in a relationship that is maybe going through a hard time, another good one to read too.

So again, thank you more please wherever you get your books. Thank you as always for being here, Financial Feminist. We appreciate you all. You can leave us a review if you like the show and if you don't like the show, stop listening. Go listen to something you like. I don't want you wasting your time with something that you hate. Go do something you like instead.

Okay, hope you're having a good summer. Okay, bye. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamesha Grant. Research by Sarah Shortino. Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Medcalf. Marketing and operations by Carina Patel and Amanda LeFeu. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K. Kaylyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmakeva, Taylor Chou,

Sasha Bonar, Ray Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Karonen, Darrell Ann Ingman, and Megan Walker. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100k community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100k, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.

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